NASA Had To Bring in the OLD Guys to Fix Hubble Telescope - Broader Message ?

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25.BZ959

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Jun 28, 2022, 10:40:43 AMJun 28
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https://www.dw.com/en/james-webb-space-telescope-just-a-huge-thermal-camera/a-62236601

(incidental)

Computer glitch solved

NASA's Hubble Space Telescope wasn't able to send images
between June 13 and July 15, 2021. A faulty computer memory
system halted the telescope's operations. Only retired NASA
experts managed to get it working again. For more than three
decades, Hubble has provided fascinating images of distant
stars and galaxies.

. . .

Gee ... had to bring in the OLD guys. Guess the new guys
with their "online gaming degrees" couldn't cope :-)

Actually though, this is not an uncommon phenom when it
comes to complex tech/systems. How and why it works is
just beyond description - too many little details, got
to know why tweaking 'x' does something to 'y' and 'z'.
You were either right in the middle of it and KNOW, or
you'll never know.

And the HST was made a LONG time ago. It is "simple" tech
by today's standards.

So what happens with all the tech/systems infrastructure
WE rely on for pretty much EVERYTHING these days ? The
"throw it away - start fresh" approach can work IF you
have the money and will to do that - but everybody is
short on both these days.


Joerg Lorenz

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Jun 28, 2022, 11:31:14 AMJun 28
to
Am 28.06.22 um 16:40 schrieb 25.BZ959:
Wrong group.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

Charlie Gibbs

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Jun 28, 2022, 1:57:13 PMJun 28
to
On 2022-06-28, 25.BZ959 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:

> https://www.dw.com/en/james-webb-space-telescope-just-a-huge-thermal-camera/a-62236601
>
> (incidental)
>
> Computer glitch solved
>
> NASA's Hubble Space Telescope wasn't able to send images
> between June 13 and July 15, 2021. A faulty computer memory
> system halted the telescope's operations. Only retired NASA
> experts managed to get it working again. For more than three
> decades, Hubble has provided fascinating images of distant
> stars and galaxies.
>
> . . .
>
> Gee ... had to bring in the OLD guys. Guess the new guys
> with their "online gaming degrees" couldn't cope :-)

Sounds like it's time to watch "Space Cowboys" again.

> Actually though, this is not an uncommon phenom when it
> comes to complex tech/systems. How and why it works is
> just beyond description - too many little details, got
> to know why tweaking 'x' does something to 'y' and 'z'.
> You were either right in the middle of it and KNOW, or
> you'll never know.
>
> And the HST was made a LONG time ago. It is "simple" tech
> by today's standards.
>
> So what happens with all the tech/systems infrastructure
> WE rely on for pretty much EVERYTHING these days ? The
> "throw it away - start fresh" approach can work IF you
> have the money and will to do that - but everybody is
> short on both these days.

Except for the Big Tech companies that created the mess.
But don't worry, they'll always be there to give you
the things that they think you should have.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

25.BZ959

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Jun 28, 2022, 8:17:10 PMJun 28
to
On 6/28/22 11:31 AM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 28.06.22 um 16:40 schrieb 25.BZ959:
>> https://www.dw.com/en/james-webb-space-telescope-just-a-huge-thermal-camera/a-62236601
>>
>> (incidental)
>>
>> Computer glitch solved
>
> Wrong group.

Nope. Technology/computer issue of note and most of
our infrastructure runs on Linux/Unix these days.
Or do you just think you write it and forget it ?
YOU might forget it, but 'the world' may be STUCK
with it for years or decades and have no answer
for what happens when it breaks.

Only a few years ago, a design/programmer I knew got
a job with a govt institution. They had one demand,
that he learn how to program/maintain their COBOL
software base which took care of the accounting and
scheduling and a few other vital things. They had
the budget in the 60s to develop all that - and now
did NOT have the budget to re-do it in some other
language. It WORKS, and if it STOPS working it's a
total disaster.

So far as I know, you can still get emulators for IBM 360/370
boxes (from IBM) so you can run that VERY old software. I
doubt anybody is literally running a 360 box, but there MAY
be a few 370 series boxes still out there.

Old software/hardware sometimes DOESN'T just go away.

Lew Pitcher

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Jun 28, 2022, 8:26:40 PMJun 28
to
On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 20:17:00 -0400, 25.BZ959 wrote:
[snip
> So far as I know, you can still get emulators for IBM 360/370 boxes
> (from IBM)

FSCK that. From IBM, you can get current, up-to-date /hardware/,
/software/, and /operating systems/ in and for the 370 family of
processors.

> so you can run that VERY old software. I doubt anybody is
> literally running a 360 box, but there MAY be a few 370 series boxes
> still out there.

Not likely 360s, nor 370s. But definitely Z (aka Z system)
(https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z)
which is the backwards-compatable followon to the 360/370 processor line.

> Old software/hardware sometimes DOESN'T just go away.

When it works, it works. Zero down-time (or at least "5 9s" uptime) is a
must for some endeavours (such as finance and defense).


--
Lew Pitcher
"In Skills, We Trust"

25.BZ959

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Jun 28, 2022, 8:46:36 PMJun 28
to
On 6/28/22 1:57 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2022-06-28, 25.BZ959 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>
>> https://www.dw.com/en/james-webb-space-telescope-just-a-huge-thermal-camera/a-62236601
>>
>> (incidental)
>>
>> Computer glitch solved
>>
>> NASA's Hubble Space Telescope wasn't able to send images
>> between June 13 and July 15, 2021. A faulty computer memory
>> system halted the telescope's operations. Only retired NASA
>> experts managed to get it working again. For more than three
>> decades, Hubble has provided fascinating images of distant
>> stars and galaxies.
>>
>> . . .
>>
>> Gee ... had to bring in the OLD guys. Guess the new guys
>> with their "online gaming degrees" couldn't cope :-)
>
> Sounds like it's time to watch "Space Cowboys" again.


Well, nobody actually FLEW the designers out to the
telescope :-)

Kind of a pity, that computer board or at least the memory
really could use replacing. The Webb telescope is impressive
but it's for a whole other optical band. The Hubble keeps
working hard and so far as I know there's NO replacement
in the works. Maybe Musk could build a service ROBOT -
attach six arms to one of his Dragons ? Hubble IS close
enough for telepresence .....

I've yet to encounter anybody who actually DESIGNS the
computers used on space probes and things like Hubble/Webb.
There's a whole different set of concerns. On what kind
of "standard" computer can you remotely lock out banks
of memory and still load the system/software ? This is
a whole other universe of redundancy and tweakability.


>> Actually though, this is not an uncommon phenom when it
>> comes to complex tech/systems. How and why it works is
>> just beyond description - too many little details, got
>> to know why tweaking 'x' does something to 'y' and 'z'.
>> You were either right in the middle of it and KNOW, or
>> you'll never know.
>>
>> And the HST was made a LONG time ago. It is "simple" tech
>> by today's standards.
>>
>> So what happens with all the tech/systems infrastructure
>> WE rely on for pretty much EVERYTHING these days ? The
>> "throw it away - start fresh" approach can work IF you
>> have the money and will to do that - but everybody is
>> short on both these days.
>
> Except for the Big Tech companies that created the mess.
> But don't worry, they'll always be there to give you
> the things that they think you should have.

Well, they DO know best ... their commercials tell us so :-)

However it may be too much to blame "Big Tech" for creating
"the mess". There was never a "Big Tech" really ... lots and
lots of "Little Tech" instead. Each saw a niche they could
fill and profit from and Did It Their Way. Try to coordinate
with some others and they'd STEAL your ideas. So ... we got
hundreds of incompatible computers and tens of thousands of
IOT/embedded systems that operate and are operated rather
differently. This was bound to happen - unless you think
Digital Equipment should have become the One And Only tech
company and murdered all their rivals way back in the day.
The sad part is that many of the Better Ideas could never
gain enough market share and perished.

25.BZ959

unread,
Jun 28, 2022, 11:22:02 PMJun 28
to
On 6/28/22 8:26 PM, Lew Pitcher wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 20:17:00 -0400, 25.BZ959 wrote:
> [snip
>> So far as I know, you can still get emulators for IBM 360/370 boxes
>> (from IBM)
>
> FSCK that. From IBM, you can get current, up-to-date /hardware/,
> /software/, and /operating systems/ in and for the 370 family of
> processors.

Yay !

>> so you can run that VERY old software. I doubt anybody is
>> literally running a 360 box, but there MAY be a few 370 series boxes
>> still out there.
>
> Not likely 360s, nor 370s. But definitely Z (aka Z system)
> (https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z)
> which is the backwards-compatable followon to the 360/370 processor line.
>
>> Old software/hardware sometimes DOESN'T just go away.
>
> When it works, it works. Zero down-time (or at least "5 9s" uptime) is a
> must for some endeavours (such as finance and defense).

Exactly.

As I mentioned somewhere, in the late 50s thru the 60s the
USA was rolling in cash and the national mindset was "The
Moon And BEYOND" - a very Can-Do attitude. Programmers and
systems people were an army of well-educated Dilberts in
their white shirts and black ties and cropped hair and pocket
protectors who attended twice-weekly "focus" meetings where
the Boss was The Boss and everybody could shut up and LISTEN,
the left-over quasi-military aire from WW2/Korea. The people
were top-rate, the software tools were good, but the hardware
was a bit anemic ... meaning they had to write it tight and
right.

(ok ... that corporate culture eventually deteriorated into
what we see in 'Dilbert' every day :-)

TODAY ... 95% of the focus seems to be on the eye-candy. Who
CARES if the program can't calculate your deductables properly
so long as it LOOKS GOOD while it's screwing up ? Gigabytes
and gigahertz ... unlimited room for fuzzy crappy code,
probably writ in the fad language of the moment that'll be
replaced by a new fad in a year or two.

So ... no wonder so many stick to those olde-tyme COBOL and
FORTRAN programs that WORKED PERFECTLY.

But MAINTAINING that software - in some cases the hardware -
there WILL come a point ......

Anyway, glad IBM is still supporting that 60s stuff - VAST
libraries of well-vetted code. I was talking to a young
quasi-tekkie the other day and he was SURPRISED that so
many people still used FORTRAN. He'd HEARD of it, ASSUMED
it was dead dead dead. But VAST quantities of really difficult
math library functions were writ in the 60s for FORTRAN
and nobody has the cash or will to re-write them.

Guess I'm still an old-school hold-over ... I'll proto in
Python, but then translate it into standard 'C'. Can usually
shrink the original code by 50%/75% too once I've had a
second look at it. I'm still thinking PDP-11, PET, kinds
of limitations ... tight and right. Hell, my first 'PC'
was a VIC-20 (marvelous bit of hardware) with a whopping
3.5 KILOBYTES of RAM (though the BIOS routines were very
capable and that's how you could do a lot with little RAM).
Bought an assembler/monitor cartridge ... what a buzz :-)

STILL wish somebody had made a open-source version of VMS
though ...

Joerg Lorenz

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Jun 29, 2022, 12:53:41 AMJun 29
to
Am 29.06.22 um 02:17 schrieb 25.BZ959:
> On 6/28/22 11:31 AM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 28.06.22 um 16:40 schrieb 25.BZ959:
>>> https://www.dw.com/en/james-webb-space-telescope-just-a-huge-thermal-camera/a-62236601
>>>
>>> (incidental)
>>>
>>> Computer glitch solved
>>
>> Wrong group.
>
> Nope.

Yes. You crossposted over 5 groups in your OP.

Newsgroups:
comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.linux,alt.politics,soc.culture.usa,sci.space

People who do this usually are called Trolls.

Charlie Gibbs

unread,
Jun 29, 2022, 1:30:10 AMJun 29
to
On 2022-06-29, 25.BZ959 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:

> On 6/28/22 1:57 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2022-06-28, 25.BZ959 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>>
>>> So what happens with all the tech/systems infrastructure
>>> WE rely on for pretty much EVERYTHING these days ? The
>>> "throw it away - start fresh" approach can work IF you
>>> have the money and will to do that - but everybody is
>>> short on both these days.
>>
>> Except for the Big Tech companies that created the mess.
>> But don't worry, they'll always be there to give you
>> the things that they think you should have.
>
> Well, they DO know best ... their commercials tell us so :-)

Thank God for the fast-forward button on my PVR.

> However it may be too much to blame "Big Tech" for creating
> "the mess".

You're right, the fact that J. Random Luser is a sucker who
will fall for anything shiny just encourages messes.

> There was never a "Big Tech" really ... lots and
> lots of "Little Tech" instead. Each saw a niche they could
> fill and profit from and Did It Their Way. Try to coordinate
> with some others and they'd STEAL your ideas. So ... we got
> hundreds of incompatible computers and tens of thousands of
> IOT/embedded systems that operate and are operated rather
> differently.

Some of that is the NIH syndrome, but I think a lot of it
was that many little isolated groups came up with their own
solutions to a problem. Standardization came later - although
the larger the company, the more standardization is viewed as
a threat.

> This was bound to happen - unless you think
> Digital Equipment should have become the One And Only tech
> company and murdered all their rivals way back in the day.

Well, Microsoft murdered a lot of their rivals - and became
the One and Only tech company in too many people's minds.

> The sad part is that many of the Better Ideas could never
> gain enough market share and perished.

Or were bought up by big companies and buried forever.

The Natural Philosopher

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Jun 29, 2022, 7:45:31 AMJun 29
to
True conservatism says if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Quite frankly 99% of all correspondence could be happily written in
wordstar under CP/M

Only the drive for planned obsolescence forces changes for profit, not
for a better user experience or more efficiency.

There is no worse input device than a touch screen.

There is no cheaper device, either.

--
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule.
– H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

The Natural Philosopher

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Jun 29, 2022, 7:53:36 AMJun 29
to
On 29/06/2022 06:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> The sad part is that many of the Better Ideas could never
>> gain enough market share and perished.
> Or were bought up by big companies and buried forever.

An idea usually has to be so substantially better that it instantly
obsoletes the alternatives. A better mousetraps when most mousetraps
catch 99% of mice, is really not that interesting (athough I bought two,
last year). But a round log rolling versus a sled or travois is kinda
instant obsolescence really. See also transistors versus valves (tubes)
or jet engines versus big multicylinder IC engines in aircraft.

If it costs far less, needs far less maintenance and performs better,
its hard to hold it back.

Only e.g. the marginal difference between Betamax and VHS could be
overcome by marketing and commercial muscle.


--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

The Natural Philosopher

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Jun 29, 2022, 6:59:42 PMJun 29
to
On 29/06/2022 22:34, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:45:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> Quite frankly 99% of all correspondence could be happily written in
>> wordstar under CP/M
>
> But suppose there are no file format converters?
>
> You can save your work in *.txt, but that would remove all formatting.

And what a huge blessing that would be.

How many fonts or formatting styles on a non daisy wheel manual
typewriter, which served to write messages to run several empires, were
there?



--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

Allodoxaphobia

unread,
Jun 29, 2022, 8:17:39 PMJun 29
to
On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:45:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> Quite frankly 99% of all correspondence could be happily written in
> wordstar under CP/M

Heh... I still have WordStar 6.0 running under xdosemu on this machine.
Just yesterday I printed off a dozen or so QSL cards that I crafted in
PCL-5 Back In The Day.

I've had WordStar on all my machines over the years -- starting with
WordStar 2.0 on CP/M. WordStar 6.0 was the last decent version.
After that the wheels started coming off.

Of course, LibreOffice eats its lunch now-a-days.
Jonesy
--
Marvin L Jones | Marvin | W3DHJ.net | linux
38.238N 104.547W | @ jonz.net | Jonesy | FreeBSD
* Killfiling google & XXXXbanter.com: jonz.net/ng.htm

25.BZ959

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Jun 29, 2022, 11:17:48 PMJun 29
to
On 6/29/22 1:30 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2022-06-29, 25.BZ959 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>
>> On 6/28/22 1:57 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-06-28, 25.BZ959 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So what happens with all the tech/systems infrastructure
>>>> WE rely on for pretty much EVERYTHING these days ? The
>>>> "throw it away - start fresh" approach can work IF you
>>>> have the money and will to do that - but everybody is
>>>> short on both these days.
>>>
>>> Except for the Big Tech companies that created the mess.
>>> But don't worry, they'll always be there to give you
>>> the things that they think you should have.
>>
>> Well, they DO know best ... their commercials tell us so :-)
>
> Thank God for the fast-forward button on my PVR.
>
>> However it may be too much to blame "Big Tech" for creating
>> "the mess".
>
> You're right, the fact that J. Random Luser is a sucker who
> will fall for anything shiny just encourages messes.


OOOOH ! SHINY !!!
(Buffy)

J Random tends to go for STATUS really. Why else would anybody
pay double for unextraordinary PCs/phones/etc from an anal
corporation just because there's a pic of a fruit on it ?


>> There was never a "Big Tech" really ... lots and
>> lots of "Little Tech" instead. Each saw a niche they could
>> fill and profit from and Did It Their Way. Try to coordinate
>> with some others and they'd STEAL your ideas. So ... we got
>> hundreds of incompatible computers and tens of thousands of
>> IOT/embedded systems that operate and are operated rather
>> differently.
>
> Some of that is the NIH syndrome, but I think a lot of it
> was that many little isolated groups came up with their own
> solutions to a problem. Standardization came later - although
> the larger the company, the more standardization is viewed as
> a threat.


Apple collectively soiled its undies a couple of weeks ago
when the EU mandated that all phones must use mini-USB for
charging/data. With "lightning" they had a captive audience :-)


>> This was bound to happen - unless you think
>> Digital Equipment should have become the One And Only tech
>> company and murdered all their rivals way back in the day.
>
> Well, Microsoft murdered a lot of their rivals - and became
> the One and Only tech company in too many people's minds.


And as soon as Gates understood that he should grease his
reps, all the "monopoly" talk went away ....


>> The sad part is that many of the Better Ideas could never
>> gain enough market share and perished.
>
> Or were bought up by big companies and buried forever.

A few cases of that too fer sure.

If you can't beat it, DESTROY it.

25.BZ959

unread,
Jun 30, 2022, 12:03:08 AMJun 30
to
On 6/29/22 7:53 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 29/06/2022 06:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>    The sad part is that many of the Better Ideas could never
>>>    gain enough market share and perished.
>> Or were bought up by big companies and buried forever.
>
> An idea usually has to be so substantially better that it instantly
> obsoletes the alternatives. A better mousetraps when most mousetraps
> catch 99% of mice, is really not that interesting (athough I bought two,
> last year). But a round log rolling versus a sled or travois is kinda
> instant obsolescence really. See also transistors versus valves (tubes)
> or jet engines versus big multicylinder IC engines in aircraft.

Valves still have certain niches. China and some
eastern European countries still make them and
there ARE markets. High-power radio transmitters,
broadcast-size, may still be using giant valves.

And MOST aircraft (lots and lots of smaller ones out there)
still use piston engines quite successfully. Cheap to make,
cheap to fix.

But for most electronics needs, transistors/FETs/etc are
the best choice. For BIG aircraft - turbines.

> If it costs far  less, needs far less maintenance and performs better,
> its hard to hold it back.

Transistors were one of those "transcendent" technologies.
Nothing could stop them.

Oddly, I read somewhere that the FET was at least proposed
WAY back in like the mid 1920s. Ah :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-effect_transistor
Julius Lillenfield
But the manufacturing tech was not there ... kinda like
Babbage's Analytical Engine, in an age of gears and cogs.
He got it RIGHT, but .....

There ARE instances where "old tech" still outperforms.
A recent article about the Voyager probes ... the makers
say that its hand-wired/discrete-components design is
why the things STILL work. Nobody makes 'em that way
anymore. In one of our previous discussions/arguments
I said that I thought a particular photo film - Verichrome
Pan - still couldn't be beat (esp in medium format).
It's extended dynamic range, fine grain and unique tone
made for BEAUTIFUL landscapes if you actually used it in
a good camera with a good exposure meter. Todays electronics
can now come kinda close - but the "tone" just ain't right.

> Only e.g. the marginal difference between Betamax and VHS could be
> overcome by marketing and commercial muscle.

That WAS a "commercial/market muscle" thing. People still
say Beta was better ... but REALLY it wasn't THAT much
damned better - and the margin was mostly lost because
people were recording commercial 360i TV and replaying
on the same tech. It took a whole new gen of TVs to even
take proper advantage of DVDs. I bought one.

Hey, I still have one of those VideoDisk players - the
big record-sized disks. It works !

Charlie Gibbs

unread,
Jun 30, 2022, 12:15:47 AMJun 30
to
On 2022-06-30, 25.BZ959 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:

> On 6/29/22 1:30 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2022-06-29, 25.BZ959 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>>
>>> However it may be too much to blame "Big Tech" for creating
>>> "the mess".
>>
>> You're right, the fact that J. Random Luser is a sucker who
>> will fall for anything shiny just encourages messes.
>
> OOOOH ! SHINY !!!
> (Buffy)

I've heard this referred to as "trout management": dangle something
shiny with a hook in it in front of them and they'll strike every time.
It's probably just an update of that famous quote that's commonly (and
possibly mistakenly) attributed to P.T. Barnum: "There's a sucker born
every minute."

> J Random tends to go for STATUS really. Why else would anybody
> pay double for unextraordinary PCs/phones/etc from an anal
> corporation just because there's a pic of a fruit on it ?

Lieutenant Dan got me invested in some kind of fruit company.
So then I got a call from him, saying we don't have to worry
about money no more.
-- Forrest Gump

Jim Jackson

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Jun 30, 2022, 1:35:48 PMJun 30
to
On 2022-06-29, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:45:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> Quite frankly 99% of all correspondence could be happily written in
>> wordstar under CP/M
>
> But suppose there are no file format converters?
>
> You can save your work in *.txt, but that would remove all formatting.

Not ALL formatting. Spaces and linefeed still work!



The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Jun 30, 2022, 2:13:17 PMJun 30
to
On 30/06/2022 01:17, Allodoxaphobia wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:45:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> Quite frankly 99% of all correspondence could be happily written in
>> wordstar under CP/M
>
> Heh... I still have WordStar 6.0 running under xdosemu on this machine.
> Just yesterday I printed off a dozen or so QSL cards that I crafted in
> PCL-5 Back In The Day.
>
> I've had WordStar on all my machines over the years -- starting with
> WordStar 2.0 on CP/M. WordStar 6.0 was the last decent version.
> After that the wheels started coming off.

Joes Own Editor does perfect wordstar `emulation.

I use it more than occasionally
>
> Of course, LibreOffice eats its lunch now-a-days.
> Jonesy


--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Jun 30, 2022, 2:14:55 PMJun 30
to
On 30/06/2022 05:02, 25.BZ959 wrote:
> On 6/29/22 7:53 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 29/06/2022 06:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>    The sad part is that many of the Better Ideas could never
>>>>    gain enough market share and perished.
>>> Or were bought up by big companies and buried forever.
>>
>> An idea usually has to be so substantially better that it instantly
>> obsoletes the alternatives. A better mousetraps when most mousetraps
>> catch 99% of mice, is really not that interesting (athough I bought
>> two, last year). But a round log rolling versus a sled or travois is
>> kinda instant obsolescence really. See also transistors versus valves
>> (tubes) or jet engines versus big multicylinder IC engines in aircraft.
>
>   Valves still have certain niches. China and some
>   eastern European countries still make them and
>   there ARE markets. High-power radio transmitters,
>   broadcast-size, may still be using giant valves.
People round here ride horses, too.

Andreas Kohlbach

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Jun 30, 2022, 6:34:06 PMJun 30
to
On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 19:13:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
> On 30/06/2022 01:17, Allodoxaphobia wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:45:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>> Quite frankly 99% of all correspondence could be happily written in
>>> wordstar under CP/M
>> Heh... I still have WordStar 6.0 running under xdosemu on this
>> machine.
>> Just yesterday I printed off a dozen or so QSL cards that I crafted in
>> PCL-5 Back In The Day.
>> I've had WordStar on all my machines over the years -- starting with
>> WordStar 2.0 on CP/M. WordStar 6.0 was the last decent version.
>> After that the wheels started coming off.
>
> Joes Own Editor does perfect wordstar `emulation.

Does it make use of the "Wordstar Diamond" too? Awesome then. I miss it.

Sure, you can reassign keys from probably any other editor for that
<https://texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?WordStarDiamond>. Of course you
lose default functions. Like the Diamond uses "d", which for example vi
uses to delete stuff instead of moving the cursor.

I suggest to continue in the folklore group. F'up2.
--
Andreas

25.BZ959

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Jun 30, 2022, 9:00:46 PMJun 30
to
On 6/30/22 2:14 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 30/06/2022 05:02, 25.BZ959 wrote:
>> On 6/29/22 7:53 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 29/06/2022 06:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>>    The sad part is that many of the Better Ideas could never
>>>>>    gain enough market share and perished.
>>>> Or were bought up by big companies and buried forever.
>>>
>>> An idea usually has to be so substantially better that it instantly
>>> obsoletes the alternatives. A better mousetraps when most mousetraps
>>> catch 99% of mice, is really not that interesting (athough I bought
>>> two, last year). But a round log rolling versus a sled or travois is
>>> kinda instant obsolescence really. See also transistors versus valves
>>> (tubes) or jet engines versus big multicylinder IC engines in aircraft.
>>
>>    Valves still have certain niches. China and some
>>    eastern European countries still make them and
>>    there ARE markets. High-power radio transmitters,
>>    broadcast-size, may still be using giant valves.

> People round here ride horses, too.


They work .... just don't stand right behind them :-)

Minimal fuel bills too.

As for big radio towers, esp AM - they use very high
voltage and are exposed to lightning. Valves/tubes
ARE better for that niche.

25.BZ959

unread,
Jun 30, 2022, 9:27:38 PMJun 30
to
On 6/30/22 12:15 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2022-06-30, 25.BZ959 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>
>> On 6/29/22 1:30 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-06-29, 25.BZ959 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> However it may be too much to blame "Big Tech" for creating
>>>> "the mess".
>>>
>>> You're right, the fact that J. Random Luser is a sucker who
>>> will fall for anything shiny just encourages messes.
>>
>> OOOOH ! SHINY !!!
>> (Buffy)
>
> I've heard this referred to as "trout management": dangle something
> shiny with a hook in it in front of them and they'll strike every time.
> It's probably just an update of that famous quote that's commonly (and
> possibly mistakenly) attributed to P.T. Barnum: "There's a sucker born
> every minute."

I'd suggest :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kQMDSw3Aqo

As for Buffy, I think she was referring to a pretty
red and silver combat axe - just before she split
Nathan Fillon in half, bottom to top :-)

>> J Random tends to go for STATUS really. Why else would anybody
>> pay double for unextraordinary PCs/phones/etc from an anal
>> corporation just because there's a pic of a fruit on it ?
>
> Lieutenant Dan got me invested in some kind of fruit company.
> So then I got a call from him, saying we don't have to worry
> about money no more.
> -- Forrest Gump
>


I *almost* invested in some tech upstart called "MicroSoft",
and RedHat too ....... almost .......... :-)


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