Linux Crashing

[Clutterfreak]

I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
one minute after each booting.

Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU X5675 @ 3.07GHz 3.06 GHz

System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor

Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this system?

--
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[pothead]

On 2021-09-27, Clutterfreak <clutterfre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
> one minute after each booting.
>
> Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU X5675 @ 3.07GHz 3.06 GHz
>
> System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
>
> Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this system?
>

Try MX Linux.

https://mxlinux.org/mx-linux-blog/


--
pothead
Tommy Chong For President 2024
Lifetime Member of "The Prescott Parasite Eradication Team"
Ask snit how he pissed on his cat.
All about snit read below. Links courtesy of Ron:
https://web.archive.org/web/20181028000459/http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/snit.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20190529043314/http://cosmicpenguin.com/snitlist.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20190529062255/http://cosmicpenguin.com/snitLieMethods.html

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 27/09/2021 13:52, Clutterfreak wrote:
> I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
> one minute after each booting.
>
> Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU           X5675  @ 3.07GHz   3.06 GHz
>
> System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
>
> Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this system?
>

Almost certainly not.

If linux mint is crashing it is in my experience about 99% certain you
have a hardware fault

Of course we have no idea what is meant by 'crashing'


--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/27/2021 8:20 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 27/09/2021 13:52, Clutterfreak wrote:
>> I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
>> one minute after each booting.
>>
>> Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU           X5675  @ 3.07GHz   3.06 GHz
>>
>> System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
>>
>> Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this system?
>>
> Almost certainly not.
>
> If linux mint is crashing it is in my experience about 99% certain you
> have a hardware fault
>
> Of course we have no idea what is meant by 'crashing'
>
>

By crashing I mean it freezes up silently. Mouse, keyboard, screen and
everything on it just freezes as if I'm looking at a picture not a
computer :)

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/27/2021 8:18 AM, pothead wrote:
> On 2021-09-27, Clutterfreak <clutterfre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
>> one minute after each booting.
>>
>> Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU X5675 @ 3.07GHz 3.06 GHz
>>
>> System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
>>
>> Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this system?
>>
>
> Try MX Linux.
>
> https://mxlinux.org/mx-linux-blog/
>
>

No you try THIS.

I just lost 6 hours of my sleep over installing and running the mint
xfce and do not want to venture into another course of hell unless you
know what you're talking about.

[RabidHussar]

On 2021-09-27 8:52 a.m., Clutterfreak wrote:
> I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
> one minute after each booting.
>
> Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU           X5675  @ 3.07GHz   3.06 GHz
>
> System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
>
> Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this system?

Honestly, I would recommend that you stay away from anything based on
Ubuntu. I was a fan of it until I realized that you're going to find a
lot more stability with other distributions.

Of course, by saying so, I'm also falling into the Linux advocate "trap"
of always recommending something else whenever someone faces a problem.

--
@RabidHussar
Proud LibreOffice and Thunderbird donor
Supporter of independent journalism
Pure blood
John 15:18

[RabidHussar]

On 2021-09-27 8:52 a.m., Clutterfreak wrote:

> I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
> one minute after each booting.
>
> Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU           X5675  @ 3.07GHz   3.06 GHz
>
> System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
>
> Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this system?

I forgot to make an actual recommendation: openSUSE.

[RabidHussar]

On 2021-09-27 9:32 a.m., Clutterfreak wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 8:18 AM, pothead wrote:
>> On 2021-09-27, Clutterfreak <clutterfre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
>>> one minute after each booting.
>>>
>>> Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU           X5675  @ 3.07GHz   3.06 GHz
>>>
>>> System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
>>>
>>> Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this
>>> system?
>>>
>>
>> Try MX Linux.
>>
>> https://mxlinux.org/mx-linux-blog/
>>
>>
>
> No you try THIS.
>
> I just lost 6 hours of my sleep over installing and running the mint
> xfce and do not want to venture into another course of hell unless you
> know what you're talking about.

We've all been there, friend. That's why I think that it doesn't make
sense to use Linux if it's of no benefit to you. Regardless of what some
"advocates" might say, it's not usually better and in fact can be much
worse in certain respects. However, openSUSE offers a good blend of
speed and stability.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 27/09/2021 14:24, Clutterfreak wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 8:20 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 27/09/2021 13:52, Clutterfreak wrote:
>>> I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
>>> one minute after each booting.
>>>
>>> Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU           X5675  @ 3.07GHz   3.06 GHz
>>>
>>> System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
>>>
>>> Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this
>>> system?
>>>
>> Almost certainly not.
>>
>> If linux mint is crashing it is in my experience about 99% certain you
>> have a hardware fault
>>
>> Of course we have no idea what is meant by 'crashing'
>>
>>
>
> By crashing I mean it freezes up silently. Mouse, keyboard, screen and
> everything on it just freezes as if I'm looking at a picture not a
> computer :)
>
>

Then it is 99.99% hardware.

with luck it might just be a duff RAM chip, and linux mint install
memtest as a bootable option.

Run that. If it crashes at the same point a couple of times swap ram
chips and try again.

If it always crashes at the same point irrespective of what ram is in
it, scrap the motherboard

Happened to my laptop. Bought a refurbed one without disk or ram,
transferred both from old laptop to new laptop, installed Mint 20 and
haven't looked back since.

--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 27/09/2021 14:32, Clutterfreak wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 8:18 AM, pothead wrote:
>> On 2021-09-27, Clutterfreak <clutterfre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
>>> one minute after each booting.
>>>
>>> Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU           X5675  @ 3.07GHz   3.06 GHz
>>>
>>> System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
>>>
>>> Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this
>>> system?
>>>
>>
>> Try MX Linux.
>>
>> https://mxlinux.org/mx-linux-blog/
>>
>>
>
> No you try THIS.
>
> I just lost 6 hours of my sleep over installing and running the mint
> xfce and do not want to venture into another course of hell unless you
> know what you're talking about.
>
>

I feel for you. I spent days trying to diagnose my crashing laptop. I
even bought new memory for it.

It still crashed. So I bought a new laptop and put ALL the old and new
RAM in it. Problem solved

The simplest thing you can run, is as I said, Memtest. If it fails that
it WILL crash on linux

Guaranteed.
try booting that and see if it passes.

If it does the other possible issue is corrupted software on account of
a dodgy hard disk drive. Check to see if the thing runs from the live
DVD. If it does, but not from an installed image, might be something
wrong with the image

Finally, a distro is the icing, not the cake. If your core kernel is
crashing changing distro isn't gonna help.

Did it run anything previously, or is it a hand me down from a 'friend'
who no longer uses it....because it crashes!

--
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule.
– H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

[The Natural Philosopher]

Yes we have, and when that happens, its time to look at the hardware.
The last time I had and issue with a particular distro not running well
on hardware whilst others did, is around 2008 with a debian stable
release. Updating to Mint with a later kernel fixed that problem, and
I've stuck with mint since then.

An issue that crashes a computer is SO urgent that there is no way it
would get released. Ergo there is something particular about that
installation Either a dodgy corrupted image or dodgy hardware.

As I said memtest and use of a live DVD should isolate the problem.



--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

[Clutterfreak]

Thanks. I'll try all that after a few hours of sleep. Haven't gone to
bed yet for my Sunday night :)

[chrisv]

Clutterfreak wrote:

>I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
>one minute after each booting.
>
>Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU X5675 @ 3.07GHz 3.06 GHz
>
>System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
>
>Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this system?

First off: Did it work when running as LiveCD, then fail after
installation to HD?

--
"Google refuses to admit Linux is a part of its systems." -
"Slimer", lying shamelessly

[Bobbie Sellers]

On 9/27/21 06:32, Clutterfreak wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 8:18 AM, pothead wrote:
>> On 2021-09-27, Clutterfreak <clutterfre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
>>> one minute after each booting.
>>>
>>> Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU           X5675  @ 3.07GHz   3.06 GHz
>>>
>>> System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
>>>
>>> Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this
>>> system?
>>>
>>
>> Try MX Linux.
>>
>> https://mxlinux.org/mx-linux-blog/
>>
>>
>
> No you try THIS.
>
> I just lost 6 hours of my sleep over installing and running the mint
> xfce and do not want to venture into another course of hell unless you
> know what you're talking about.

Maybe you need to try the various Forums. And you might want to
give more hardware details of the system. such as the Graphic system,
the amount of installed RAM, etc. Details of your install such as
partitioning.

I would using search engine DuckDuckGo ask it a simple question
such as "Linux Mint (version number) crashing my computer?"

Have you looked for a Linux Users Group in your vicinity?
Frequently they have people who will help you get Linux which is how
I got my first system running about 16 years back.

Currently I have a set of Dell Latitudes most recent 7540
running PCLinux, a rolling release and an early fork from Mandrake
and Mandriva (which was my first Linux system). We have an excellent
forum with coders,the packager and idiots like me,

bliss -“Nearly any fool can use a GNU/Linux computer. Many do.” After
all here I am...

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

[RabidHussar]

I've given Debian many chances over the years but it was always
unreliable compared to everything else in addition to being outdated.
People would point me at my hardware but whether I was running Windows
or any other distribution, it was stable. Clearly, Debian itself was the
issue.

> An issue that crashes a computer is SO urgent that there is no way it
> would get released. Ergo there is something particular about that
> installation Either a dodgy corrupted image or dodgy hardware.
>
> As I said memtest and use of a live DVD should isolate the problem.

LiveUSB keys are the most useful thing in all of my computer
accessories. When Windows fails and none of the repair options help,
it's always good to boot in with a Linux key and retrieve our files...
assuming we didn't encrypt the hard disk.

[The Starmaker]

Clutterfreak wrote:
>
> I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
> one minute after each booting.
>
> Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU X5675 @ 3.07GHz 3.06 GHz

Xeon???? garbage.

>
> System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
>
> Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this system?

I would say you have a memory problem and video memory card problem. Replace both. You need more memory. more. no more. more than that. MORE!



Xeon????

>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus

You know, you can go into your Avast program setting preference and remove "This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software."


If you're unable to do dat, wat are you doing fooling around with Linux???


Xeon???? What were you thinking? dats garbage.


You first need to learn how to build or buy a desktop computer.


your desktop is cluttered with garbage.


Xeon????


How much memory do you have installed, 640k?


--
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, and challenge
the unchallengeable.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 27/09/2021 17:50, The Starmaker wrote:
> Clutterfreak wrote:
>>
>> I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
>> one minute after each booting.
>>
>> Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU X5675 @ 3.07GHz 3.06 GHz
>
> Xeon???? garbage.
>

It works. It shouldn't crash.

Online docs say Xeon should work, but is an unusual choice for a desktop.

Takes ECC RAM?

Online docs stay X5675 was 2011 chip, now discontinued, so this is no
spanking new computer. It's old and may well have 'issues'.

It was in its day a $1400 CPU. capable of addressing over 200GB of RAM Wow!

I am with clutterfreak. If someone handed me one of those i'd want to
get it working as well.

My guess is he has an old server that's been tossed out because it no
longer works and is too old to be worth fixing.

Experience suggest its got dead ram or an iffy processor (if the fan has
failed they can cook) or another chip has failed.

Mmm I never thought of a dead fan. I had a sparc sent in that used to
fail after 20 minutes regular as clockwork, but always booted the next
morning. CPU fan had died. Got another one sent in... fan had died but
so too had the CPU...wasn't really worth fixing. stripped out the ram
and disk and put it in a new one and charged the customer what it cost...

So Mr Clutterfreak
Tell us more about where this came from and what state it is in.
Does the CPU fan shift air?
Does it pass memtest 86?
Has it got the correct RAM in it?

The good news is that if you find and fix the hardware problem you may
well find the installed linux will then run just fine

but if the mb or cpu have gone dead, toss it.

--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

[Carlos E. R.]

On 27/09/2021 15.32, Clutterfreak wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 8:18 AM, pothead wrote:
>> On 2021-09-27, Clutterfreak <clutterfre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
>>> one minute after each booting.
>>>
>>> Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU           X5675  @ 3.07GHz   3.06 GHz
>>>
>>> System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
>>>
>>> Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this
>>> system?
>>>
>>
>> Try MX Linux.
>>
>> https://mxlinux.org/mx-linux-blog/
>>
>>
>
> No you try THIS.
>
> I just lost 6 hours of my sleep over installing and running the mint
> xfce and do not want to venture into another course of hell unless you
> know what you're talking about.
>
>
>

Troll.

Advocacy group removed.

If you are not interested in investing time and effort, I'm not
interested in helping. Go back to Windows. Seriously, Linux is not for you.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[The Starmaker]

Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU X5675 @ 3.07GHz 3.06 GHz???? You can buy that chip on ebay for under twenty dollars!!! and if you look real hard, they'll throw in the whole computer for 20 dollars....


if it doesn't run flight simulator 2020...take it to the back of the barn and shoot it!

build this:

Intel Core i9-10900K (5.3 GHz, 20 MB cache, 10 cores)
NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3090 (24 GB GDDR6)
64 GB HyperX DDR4-3200 XMP RGB SDRAM



Come on, come on...give it up, How much memory you got now?

[Bobbie Sellers]

Troll? I think you have it and what a long string of messages.

bliss -“Nearly any fool can use a GNU/Linux computer. Many do.”

After all here we are...

[Richard Kettlewell]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> writes:
> It works. It shouldn't crash.
>
> Online docs say Xeon should work, but is an unusual choice for a
> desktop.

This one is a bit long in the tooth but agreed, it should work fine.

> Takes ECC RAM?
>
> Online docs stay X5675 was 2011 chip, now discontinued, so this is no
> spanking new computer. It's old and may well have 'issues'.
>
> It was in its day a $1400 CPU. capable of addressing over 200GB of RAM Wow!
>
> I am with clutterfreak. If someone handed me one of those i'd want to
> get it working as well.
> My guess is he has an old server that's been tossed out because it no
> longer works and is too old to be worth fixing.
>
> Experience suggest its got dead ram or an iffy processor (if the fan
> has failed they can cook) or another chip has failed.
>
> Mmm I never thought of a dead fan. I had a sparc sent in that used to
> fail after 20 minutes regular as clockwork, but always booted the next
> morning. CPU fan had died. Got another one sent in... fan had died but
> so too had the CPU...wasn't really worth fixing. stripped out the ram
> and disk and put it in a new one and charged the customer what it
> cost...

Other things to think about in an older machine:
- excess dust
- failure of thermal transfer paste between CPU and heatsink

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

[Clutterfreak]

Problem was in HD. I replaced it with my older one with win10 on it and
it has started to work fine. All memory sticks (3 sticks of 8g each)
work without any problems, and they are error correcting ones.

It had win10 on it when I got the computer from craigslist ($75). I kept
using it as it was until yesterday morning when it started to make
beeping sounds at turn on but with some tries it would boot. Then last
night it wouldn't completely boot anymore but I had taken all my
programs and stuff off the computer a few hours earlier (just a few
folders), so I decided to reinstall the OS to see if that helps, and
went for Linux this time cause I don't have a win10 disk. I downloaded
mint XFCE and checksumed it against the one on server, then burnt the
iso and again checked for possible errors, then installed it. It
installed fine but never would proceed past a few tens of seconds after
booting was complete.

The HD I placed in it is half the capacity of the original but the
present 500G is more than I ever need on this computer. I use it just
for learning programming and writing hobby programs, mostly to solve
some physics question that would require computation.

I intend to keep the win10. Will perhaps do something else later with
the Linux mint iso disk with one of my other computers.

Thanks again for all the information you provided.

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/27/2021 1:55 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU X5675 @ 3.07GHz 3.06 GHz???? You can buy that chip on ebay for under twenty dollars!!! and if you look real hard, they'll throw in the whole computer for 20 dollars....

Yes they sell the CPU used for $12 :-) But don't let that price fool
you. It is old but does the job I ask for.

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/27/2021 1:42 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> Seriously, Linux is not for you.

And THIS is unquestionably for you.

[Clutterfreak]

I don't own a Windows 10 disk. So I went for Linux. Problem turned out
to be in the hard drive though, not Linux. I changed to an older hard
drive with windows 10 on it and computer works fine now.

[The Starmaker]

Clutterfreak wrote:
>
> On 9/27/2021 1:55 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> > Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU X5675 @ 3.07GHz 3.06 GHz???? You can buy that chip on ebay for under twenty dollars!!! and if you look real hard, they'll throw in the whole computer for 20 dollars....
>
> Yes they sell the CPU used for $12 :-) But don't let that price fool
> you. It is old but does the job I ask for.

I don't get it, you said: "it crashes less than

one minute after each booting."





>

> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/27/2021 4:51 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
> Clutterfreak wrote:
>>
>> On 9/27/2021 1:55 PM, The Starmaker wrote:
>>> Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU X5675 @ 3.07GHz 3.06 GHz???? You can buy that chip on ebay for under twenty dollars!!! and if you look real hard, they'll throw in the whole computer for 20 dollars....
>>
>> Yes they sell the CPU used for $12 :-) But don't let that price fool
>> you. It is old but does the job I ask for.
>
> I don't get it, you said: "it crashes less than
> one minute after each booting."
>
>
>

I changed the HD to an earlier one I had from past computers with win10
on it and it works great now. The HD must've gone bad. I'm still not
100% sure it works without problems with Linux. But it is working fine
with the other HD and win10.

[RabidHussar]

Speaking of beeps, the Seagate external HD I _just_ bought like a month
ago is already beeping and making an ass of itself. That company can't
produce quality no matter what they do.

< snip >

--
@RabidHussar
Proud LibreOffice & Thunderbird donor

[rbowman]

Is it a separate video card? I've had them go bad. The problem around
here is none of the stores sell cheap cards. No money in that.

[rbowman]

On 09/27/2021 11:33 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> Does the CPU fan shift air?

Does the CPU heat sink look like a mouse's nest? Unless you're in a
clean room old boxes have more dust bunnies than live under your bed.

[Clutterfreak]

Both the bad HD and the older one that works for now are also Seagate :)
But internal.

[Clutterfreak]

I keep that computer in a separate room where I go only when I want to
program. The room is not as dusty as other areas in the house but it
still gets some pollen and cat hair despite various filtering I've
employed for a/c and portable ones in each room. Cats can crawl under
the door and get in there.

But my other computers are fair game for all sorts of dusts and I'm too
lazy to keep them clean inside and out. Too busy really. Especially
roaches like to relax on memory sticks which I guess gets warm just
enough for them. Cats mean water and cat food, which in turn means
roaches, and you cannot use chemicals to get rid of roaches cause they
make cats sick, plus one way or another you'll end up breathing those
chemicals when roaches out of your sight die and dry and turn into
powder and get mixed with air.

But pollen is the worst factor around here. It eventually gets inside
HD's and ruins them.

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/27/2021 9:21 PM, rbowman wrote:
>
> Is it a separate video card? I've had them go bad. The problem around
> here is none of the stores sell cheap cards. No money in that.

I don't quite understand what you mean. The video card on this computer
is inside it of course (ATI FirePro).

[Branimir Maksimovic]

On 2021-09-27, Clutterfreak <clutterfre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've installed Linux Mint XFCE on my desktop but it crashes less than
> one minute after each booting.
>
> Processor: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU X5675 @ 3.07GHz 3.06 GHz
>

> System type: 64-bit operating system, x64-based processor
>
> Is there another Linux version that'd work without issues on this system?
>

That's because of Avast, it does not works on Linux...


--

7-77-777
Evil Sinner!

[The Natural Philosopher]

+1



--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 27/09/2021 21:38, Clutterfreak wrote:
> I intend to keep the win10. Will perhaps do something else later with
> the Linux mint iso disk with one of my other computers.
>
> Thanks again for all the information you provided.

Well Ok, I feel marginally vindicated as a corrupted hard drive and
linux image was on my list of pissobolities

I'd definitely run linux on that one.
Bargain at $75.

But you are not I....:-)

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 28/09/2021 05:30, Clutterfreak wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 9:21 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>
>> Is it a separate video card? I've had them go bad. The problem around
>> here is none of the stores sell cheap cards. No money in that.
>
> I don't quite understand what you mean. The video card on this computer
> is inside it of course (ATI FirePro).
>

he means as in PCi plugin video adapter rather than inetgrated on the
motherboard

--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

[rbowman]

On 09/27/2021 10:22 PM, Clutterfreak wrote:
> ut my other computers are fair game for all sorts of dusts and I'm too
> lazy to keep them clean inside and out. Too busy really. Especially
> roaches like to relax on memory sticks which I guess gets warm just
> enough for them. Cats mean water and cat food, which in turn means
> roaches, and you cannot use chemicals to get rid of roaches cause they
> make cats sick, plus one way or another you'll end up breathing those
> chemicals when roaches out of your sight die and dry and turn into
> powder and get mixed with air.

Consider yourself lucky. Around here water and cat food means skunks.
Luckily the cat is smarter than most dogs and doesn't challenge the skunks.

Last week I had to clean the mouse. Optical mice has solved the problem
of gunk around the ball rollers but I had the extract fur from the axle
of the scroll wheel. It gets erratic when the buildup obscures the slots
in the sensor.

[rbowman]

On 09/27/2021 10:30 PM, Clutterfreak wrote:
> On 9/27/2021 9:21 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>
>> Is it a separate video card? I've had them go bad. The problem around
>> here is none of the stores sell cheap cards. No money in that.
>
> I don't quite understand what you mean. The video card on this computer
> is inside it of course (ATI FirePro).
>

Quite a few processors integrate the GPU and use system RAM. AMD calls
them APUs but some Xeons did the same.

A discrete card can have a failing GPU or bad RAM.

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/28/2021 7:01 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 05:30, Clutterfreak wrote:
>> On 9/27/2021 9:21 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>>
>>> Is it a separate video card? I've had them go bad. The problem around
>>> here is none of the stores sell cheap cards. No money in that.
>>
>> I don't quite understand what you mean. The video card on this
>> computer is inside it of course (ATI FirePro).
>>
> he means as in PCi plugin video adapter rather than inetgrated on the
> motherboard
>

No it is not integrated as part of the MB. It can be pulled out.
According to guy who sold the computer it is newer than the computer and
just the card itself was worth much more than the $75 price tag. He'd
got a much better computer of same type and line (this is S20
ThinkStation) a week or so earlier and was just trying to find a "good
home" for the old one. He actually checked with me with text before the
deal was made :) He didn't want it to go to some guy who'd need an
iphone not a computer.

I put this computer into pretty good use :) Freshened up on my totally
rusted almost non-existent quarter century old C++ knowledge and enjoyed
the heck with it since, programming little stuff here and there. I use
it just like people in late 1970s and early 80s literally dreamed of a
machine like this. $75 would probably be about $10 then. Perhaps $15.

And I haven't even touched its capabilities.

[Clutterfreak]

As far as I know the card on this computer was years newer than the
computer itself. It was "almost" new when I purchased the system.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I love the idea of it. I am sad you didn't put Mint on it, but it may
well be a great Windows gaming machine

I think it is a total bargain especially since its now reliable.

It is crying out for an SSD and Linux :-)

--
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere,
diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.”
― Groucho Marx

[Charlie Gibbs]

While you're at it, check your video card too. My machine's
display was going blank every day or so; the card's heat sink
was full of dust bunnies. I cleaned it a couple of weeks ago
and it's been fine ever since.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/28/2021 1:31 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> I love the idea of it. I am sad you didn't put Mint on it, but it may
> well be a great Windows gaming machine
>
> I think it is a total bargain especially since its now reliable.
>
> It is crying out for an SSD and Linux :-)

Hehe :) We spent about 15 minutes talking before I drove off with the
computer but I didn't find out what the seller was using it for before.

I'm not into gaming and he sure didn't look like he was. My guess is he
had academic background and position. His conduct, mastery of English,
and the way he was groomed kind of indicated that.

And of course he was no businessman :) Neither am I. He'd left the max
24g RAM and the graphics card in it intact. His concern was that this
jewel doesn't go to waste. With the new S-something he'd purchased this
one would go to waste with him.

[rbowman]

On 09/28/2021 02:55 PM, Clutterfreak wrote:
> And of course he was no businessman :) Neither am I. He'd left the max
> 24g RAM and the graphics card in it intact. His concern was that this
> jewel doesn't go to waste. With the new S-something he'd purchased this
> one would go to waste with him.

24GB of DDR2 isn't exactly in high demand unless you're nursing a
vintage box.

[Branimir Maksimovic]

Well, you can sell a piece :P
>
>


--

7-77-777
Evil Sinner!

[rbowman]

Probably make out on it too. I bought one of those $10 computers from a
YWCA sale and found obsolete components are insanely expensive. I went
to one of the local computer shops and asked what they did with old,
small hard drives since the BIOS wouldn't recognize anything too big.
They weren't ecologically aware so all the drives, old RAM, and so forth
went into the dumpster.

[Clutterfreak]

Hehe :) I didn't know my S20 is now considered "vintage" :)

When I bought it 4 years ago it was a heck of a computer, and today when
I ran some stuff on it, it was still a heck of a computer. I can't run
autocad and one of my more demanding programs at the same time on my
other computers. But on S20 they run as if the other isn't even there :)

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/28/2021 11:54 PM, rbowman wrote:
> all the drives, old RAM, and so forth went into the dumpster.

In late 80s I dug three Commodore 64 computers from our dumpster :)
power supplies included. I was still in school so I didn't need a "home"
computer yet, plus modems that school provided to students to use at
home were I think only 300 baud. Too lethargic to connect those heavy
vt100 terminals to school computers from home. So for me computing was
something always done in school. But some students had purchased Apples
and IBM XTs etc. Two of these three Commodores were fully functional and
I gradually adopted them as my home computer.

Soon I taught myself C on one of them, if you can believe that! In
school they were still referring to C as "the language of the future."

So Commodore 64, it looks like, was already "vintage" in 1989. After I
acquired the Commodores I began frequenting a computer assignment store
that sold people's old and new stuff and kept 30% of the money and gave
70% to owners. It was a heaven for "vintage" parts, systems, manuals,
books, everything. I had found a funky half-finished C manual there in
German coming with two disks for Commodore. That's how I learned C. In
school everybody used Fortran in science depts and PL-1 in business depts.

I remember Samsung was only selling monitors and everybody in that store
was surprised it had not gone out of business by then :) It had somehow
survived through any hell that had befallen other computer related
businesses "but certainly not for long" as everybody there said.

Anyway, I'm so "vintage" myself that even today in 2021 if I get my
hands on a Commodore 64 I begin immediately to enjoy doing fun stuff
with it. I have at least 50 little programs from those years written in
Commodore's basic and C which are entrapped inside a bad old HD that
crashed and my attempts to revive them only made things worse. Even if I
had kept my cassettes that I used for storing programs I'd have better
chance now to access them.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 28/09/2021 21:55, Clutterfreak wrote:
> On 9/28/2021 1:31 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> I love the idea of it. I am sad you didn't put Mint on it, but it may
>> well be a great Windows gaming machine
>>
>> I think it is a total bargain especially since its now reliable.
>>
>> It is crying out for an SSD and Linux :-)
>
> Hehe :) We spent about 15 minutes talking before I drove off with the
> computer but I didn't find out what the seller was using it for before.
>
> I'm not into gaming and he sure didn't look like he was. My guess is he
> had academic background and position. His conduct, mastery of English,
> and the way he was groomed kind of indicated that.
>
> And of course he was no businessman :) Neither am I. He'd left the max
> 24g RAM and the graphics card in it intact. His concern was that this
> jewel doesn't go to waste. With the new S-something he'd purchased this
> one would go to waste with him.
>

He probably got it out of a university server room. Kit like that has
almost no resale value because its obsolescent for its original purpose
and home users dont recognise it or know what to do with it

I'd be using that to crunch videos or play games on I think
>
>
>


--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

[The Natural Philosopher]

ECC RAM too, probably


--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 29/09/2021 06:37, Clutterfreak wrote:
> On 9/28/2021 10:53 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On 09/28/2021 02:55 PM, Clutterfreak wrote:
>>> And of course he was no businessman :) Neither am I. He'd left the max
>>> 24g RAM and the graphics card in it intact. His concern was that this
>>> jewel doesn't go to waste. With the new S-something he'd purchased this
>>> one would go to waste with him.
>>
>> 24GB of DDR2 isn't exactly in high demand unless you're nursing a
>> vintage box.
>>
>>
>
>
> Hehe :) I didn't know my S20 is now considered "vintage" :)
>
> When I bought it 4 years ago it was a heck of a computer, and today when
> I ran some stuff on it, it was still a heck of a computer. I can't run
> autocad and one of my more demanding programs at the same time on my
> other computers. But on S20 they run as if the other isn't even there :)
>

yes. that chip had a lot of cores - multitasking server was its target
market

[chrisv]

Clutterfreak wrote:

>He'd left the max
>24g RAM and the graphics card in it intact. His concern was that this
>jewel doesn't go to waste. With the new S-something he'd purchased this
>one would go to waste with him.

Heh. One shouldn't get emotionally attacked to old, obsolete computer
hardware. But we do anyway... 8)

I'm actually thinking about selling my Amiga.

--
"recovering from Covid means you're immune, truly immune" - RonB,
lying shamelessly

[chrisv]

Clutterfreak wrote:

>So Commodore 64, it looks like, was already "vintage" in 1989. After I
>acquired the Commodores I began frequenting a computer assignment store
>that sold people's old and new stuff and kept 30% of the money and gave
>70% to owners. It was a heaven for "vintage" parts, systems, manuals,
>books, everything.

Cool!

>I had found a funky half-finished C manual there in
>German coming with two disks for Commodore. That's how I learned C. In
>school everybody used Fortran in science depts and PL-1 in business depts.

My college programming classes used Pascal. EE curriculum.

--
"ALL non-idiots support the use of testing over compile-time warnings
to determine if the code functions correctly. You're one of the few
idiots who thinks otherwise." - DumFSck, lying shamelessly

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 29/09/2021 12:31, chrisv wrote:
> Clutterfreak wrote:
>
>> So Commodore 64, it looks like, was already "vintage" in 1989. After I
>> acquired the Commodores I began frequenting a computer assignment store
>> that sold people's old and new stuff and kept 30% of the money and gave
>> 70% to owners. It was a heaven for "vintage" parts, systems, manuals,
>> books, everything.
>
> Cool!
>
>> I had found a funky half-finished C manual there in
>> German coming with two disks for Commodore. That's how I learned C. In
>> school everybody used Fortran in science depts and PL-1 in business depts.
>
> My college programming classes used Pascal. EE curriculum.
>

The only language I was ever taught, was FORTRAN


I taught myself BASIC, ASSEMBLER, C, PHP, JavaScript, SQL..a smattering
of PASCAL, C++, Shell. Rust looks like the next one to look at, if I
have time.



“It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.”

Thomas Sowell

[rbowman]

On 09/29/2021 12:59 AM, Clutterfreak wrote:
> On 9/28/2021 11:54 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> all the drives, old RAM, and so forth went into the dumpster.
>
> In late 80s I dug three Commodore 64 computers from our dumpster :)
> power supplies included. I was still in school so I didn't need a "home"
> computer yet, plus modems that school provided to students to use at
> home were I think only 300 baud. Too lethargic to connect those heavy
> vt100 terminals to school computers from home. So for me computing was
> something always done in school. But some students had purchased Apples
> and IBM XTs etc. Two of these three Commodores were fully functional and
> I gradually adopted them as my home computer.

I never worked with a 64. One of my clients in the early '80s was
Sprague Electric at their tantalum capacitor plant in Maine. They had a
number of Commodore PETs. They were clunky but they had a IEEE-488
(HPIB) interface for the peripherals. Sprague had Hewlett Packard
instrumentation for many of the processes that used the bus. A HP
desktop computer went for about $3000. You could buy about five PETs for
that.

>
> Soon I taught myself C on one of them, if you can believe that! In
> school they were still referring to C as "the language of the future."

In the late '80s? That's about right. Schools tend to be a generation
behind what is happening.

> So Commodore 64, it looks like, was already "vintage" in 1989. After I
> acquired the Commodores I began frequenting a computer assignment store
> that sold people's old and new stuff and kept 30% of the money and gave
> 70% to owners. It was a heaven for "vintage" parts, systems, manuals,
> books, everything. I had found a funky half-finished C manual there in
> German coming with two disks for Commodore. That's how I learned C. In
> school everybody used Fortran in science depts and PL-1 in business depts.

I learned FORTRAN IV on an IBM System/360 Model 30. It had 32K of core,
real core, and the programs were submitted on Hollerith cards. A 64 was
a real step up.

> Anyway, I'm so "vintage" myself that even today in 2021 if I get my
> hands on a Commodore 64 I begin immediately to enjoy doing fun stuff
> with it. I have at least 50 little programs from those years written in
> Commodore's basic and C which are entrapped inside a bad old HD that
> crashed and my attempts to revive them only made things worse. Even if I
> had kept my cassettes that I used for storing programs I'd have better
> chance now to access them.

http://www.ccs64.com/

[rbowman]

On 09/29/2021 05:31 AM, chrisv wrote:
> Clutterfreak wrote:
>
>> So Commodore 64, it looks like, was already "vintage" in 1989. After I
>> acquired the Commodores I began frequenting a computer assignment store
>> that sold people's old and new stuff and kept 30% of the money and gave
>> 70% to owners. It was a heaven for "vintage" parts, systems, manuals,
>> books, everything.
>
> Cool!
>
>> I had found a funky half-finished C manual there in
>> German coming with two disks for Commodore. That's how I learned C. In
>> school everybody used Fortran in science depts and PL-1 in business depts.
>
> My college programming classes used Pascal. EE curriculum.
>

I loved Pascal. The University of Maine used it for a didactic language
and many of the new engineering hires used it. I made some bucks writing
dll's so Pascal could talk to real world instrumentation, robotic arms,
and so forth.

The original, pure design by Wirth was characterized as 'a computer
language only good for telling itself secrets' .

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 29/09/2021 15:02, rbowman wrote:
> I learned FORTRAN IV on an IBM System/360 Model 30. It had 32K of core,
> real core, and the programs were submitted on Hollerith cards. A 64 was
> a real step up.

I think I learnt on an Elliott - I never actually saw the computer.
We wrote programs on paper tape using a flexowriter, and got the results
on fanfold from a line printer a week later at the next class.

The next step for me was a CP/M Sharp MZ80 machine,with a built in
screen and keyboards. And floppy disk drives. 1980 that was.

the rapid turn round of code to program convinced me that computers
might actually be usable after all.



--
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.”

― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire

[rbowman]

On 09/29/2021 07:13 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 29/09/2021 12:31, chrisv wrote:
>> Clutterfreak wrote:
>>
>>> So Commodore 64, it looks like, was already "vintage" in 1989. After I
>>> acquired the Commodores I began frequenting a computer assignment store
>>> that sold people's old and new stuff and kept 30% of the money and gave
>>> 70% to owners. It was a heaven for "vintage" parts, systems, manuals,
>>> books, everything.
>>
>> Cool!
>>
>>> I had found a funky half-finished C manual there in
>>> German coming with two disks for Commodore. That's how I learned C. In
>>> school everybody used Fortran in science depts and PL-1 in business
>>> depts.
>>
>> My college programming classes used Pascal. EE curriculum.
>>
> The only language I was ever taught, was FORTRAN
>
>
> I taught myself BASIC, ASSEMBLER, C, PHP, JavaScript, SQL..a smattering
> of PASCAL, C++, Shell. Rust looks like the next one to look at, if I
> have time.

FORTRAN was the only one I was formally taught in '65. BASIC was used at
Dartmouth in '64 but that was about it. My wife went to SUNY Albany
before transferring to a real school. They had a CDC so she learned some
weird language that isn't extant.

[The Natural Philosopher]

It was rubbish for real world stuff. You had to compromise it to do
anything. C was designed from the outset to be useful, and I still
revere it, with all its shortcomings. On a small memory machine it is
absolutely the bees knees.


--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

[The Natural Philosopher]

yes. My university chums who spent hours in the computer labs did ALGOL.
That vanished, but it set the standard for all the block structured
procedural languages that came after.

then there are a whole slew of 'academic' languages that everyone
declared to be ExtremelyImportant, but which have vanished without
trace. Lisp. Modula 2. Pascal, Forth.

Wiki lists over 100 languages - but really I cant think of more than 10
that are seen on job adverts

[chrisv]

rbowman wrote:

> chrisv wrote:
>>
>> My college programming classes used Pascal. EE curriculum.
>
>I loved Pascal. The University of Maine used it for a didactic language
>and many of the new engineering hires used it. I made some bucks writing
>dll's so Pascal could talk to real world instrumentation, robotic arms,
>and so forth.
>
>The original, pure design by Wirth was characterized as 'a computer
>language only good for telling itself secrets' .

I can't say that I've met a programming language that I didn't like.
I probably should have gotten a job programming, because I've always
enjoyed doing it.

Programming with Pascal was certainly a good learning experience. I'd
done a lot of programming previously (even for a living), mostly in
BASIC. But I really learned how to program "correctly" (well
structured, etc) in college with Pascal.

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/29/2021 6:25 AM, chrisv wrote:
> Clutterfreak wrote:
>
>> He'd left the max
>> 24g RAM and the graphics card in it intact. His concern was that this
>> jewel doesn't go to waste. With the new S-something he'd purchased this
>> one would go to waste with him.
>
> Heh. One shouldn't get emotionally attacked to old, obsolete computer
> hardware. But we do anyway... 8)
>
> I'm actually thinking about selling my Amiga.
>

Amiga was EXPENSIVE even then in that consignment store.

That wonderful store closed 2 or 3 short years later. I have a hunch why
and how, cause its business was great and would stay great for decades
to come.

They'd newly hired a crook (the one who handled Apple type machines,
parts, books, and software) who was a part time student. He was their
Apple expert. I think by the time they discovered what he was doing it
was too late for the business. A whole lot of others like me must've
noticed it.

There were no returns on what you bought, and this guy would switch what
you paid for with an identical but non-functioning one while you weren't
looking, or while he was placing it inside a carry box elsewhere. And
store took the side of their employees, not the customers' when they
returned the non-working products, cause some customers were crooks
themselves trying to outsmart the business.

Could be that somebody probably sued them at last! Any business can deal
successfully with crooks among customers, but not when even one employee
of theirs is a crook.

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/29/2021 10:57 AM, chrisv wrote:
> I can't say that I've met a programming language that I didn't like.

I don't like javascript. Period. It's got real problems. By the time it
was developed, programming languages had migrated from creators who were
essentially scientists to two-bit little "engineers" who'd packed those
desk jobs by then, creating newer ones. Complements of Reagan era.

To this day all real businesses are run by programming languages that
were already invented before the wave of "Engineers" arrived and fucked
everything up.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 29/09/2021 18:01, Clutterfreak wrote:
> On 9/29/2021 10:57 AM, chrisv wrote:
>> I can't say that I've met a programming language that I didn't like.
>
>
> I don't like javascript. Period. It's got real problems. By the time it
> was developed, programming languages had migrated from creators who were
> essentially scientists to two-bit little "engineers" who'd packed those
> desk jobs by then, creating newer ones. Complements of Reagan era.
>

Er no, wriong way around programming languages had migrated from
creators who were essentially engineers to two-bit little "computer
science-tits who'd packed those desk jobs by then, creating newer ones.

> To this day all real businesses are run by programming languages that
> were already invented before the wave of "Engineers" arrived and fucked
> everything up.
>

C was written by engineers and mathematicians
Assembler was written by engineers
COBOL was written by a mathematician
C++ was written by a computer scientist.
Java was written by computer scientists as was Javascript

The worst person to employ in IT is a computer scientist.
The best people are mathematicians and software engineers.

--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

[chrisv]

Clutterfreak wrote:

> chrisv wrote:
>> I can't say that I've met a programming language that I didn't like.
>
>
>I don't like javascript. Period. It's got real problems. By the time it
>was developed, programming languages had migrated from creators who were
>essentially scientists to two-bit little "engineers" who'd packed those
>desk jobs by then, creating newer ones.

Heh. Well, my experience is quite limited. For all I know, there's a
lot of them out there that I would not like.

--
"If there's anything I have very little tolerance for nowadays it's
anyone expressing a leftist thought. I truly hate them and they
totally deserve the hatred." - "Slimer", self-proclaimed "Christian"

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 29/09/2021 20:11, chrisv wrote:
> Clutterfreak wrote:
>
>> chrisv wrote:
>>> I can't say that I've met a programming language that I didn't like.
>>
>>
>> I don't like javascript. Period. It's got real problems. By the time it
>> was developed, programming languages had migrated from creators who were
>> essentially scientists to two-bit little "engineers" who'd packed those
>> desk jobs by then, creating newer ones.
>
> Heh. Well, my experience is quite limited. For all I know, there's a
> lot of them out there that I would not like.
>

JavaScript is the living example of the road to hell being paved with
good intentions.

there is for example, no typing of variables. So you have no idea if you
are dealing with a character, an integer, a floating point a pointer to
string or a pointer to a DOM or element thereof.

The ideas of this is it saves the poor little CompSci tits having to
bother their pointy little heads about thinking of types, the
interpreter will understand what they mean and turning them into the
correct type.

The result is that in edge cases the interpreters will do unexpected
things, and two browsers may not behave the same way.

Likewise another 'lets have the language instead of the program decide'
is in memory allocation. so although you never then have memory
overwrite bugs like C, you end up with massive issues with deallocating
unneeded memory - garbage collection - that can bring a browser to a
virtual standstill.

Object orientated programming has probably done more harm than any other
fashion in IT.

All invented by 'computer scientists'


--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

[Clutterfreak]

I (and I suppose Chrisv as well) was talking about programming
languages, not something whose little ass is tied to "web browsers".
What's "web browsing" and web itself got to do with programming? As a
programming language javascript sucks. It's truly just for "engineers."

Google is not run by "chrome" :-( It is run by computers with C++ codes
running on them round the clock. Google is absolutely helpless with
anything other than C++. The moment they use one of "Engineers"' funky
choices instead, they'd have to enlarge the size and number of buildings
they keep the computers in by at least a factor of 10 because they'd
have to increase the number of computers by a factor of 10 :-( Even
Google cannot afford that.

Programming has been around since 1940s. It feeds on the need to compute
solutions to scientific problems. Web browsing is something totally
unrelated that began in 1990s so malodorous teenagers with their dicks
in their hands could find porn with :) Yeah you need "engineers" for
that side of realities.

Hahaha :)

Well, programming I guess means different things to different people.
When I looked into javascript some 20 years back it was pure shit as a
programming language. I don't know what it is today and I don't even
want to know. But back then it was lunacy, pure masochism, to use
javascript to program.

[chrisv]

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>JavaScript is the living example of the road to hell being paved with
>good intentions.
>
>there is for example, no typing of variables. So you have no idea if you
>are dealing with a character, an integer, a floating point a pointer to
>string or a pointer to a DOM or element thereof.

Arg. Even in BASIC (where you don't need to type ints or floats) I
type all variables. It's hard to believe that any programmer would
not want to always know exactly what type of variable is being
dealt-with.

--
"As I have noted, [TomB] and most of the herd are not very technical."
- some thing, lying shamelessly (but no one can quote it lying)

[rbowman]

On 09/29/2021 05:25 AM, chrisv wrote:
> Clutterfreak wrote:
>
>> He'd left the max
>> 24g RAM and the graphics card in it intact. His concern was that this
>> jewel doesn't go to waste. With the new S-something he'd purchased this
>> one would go to waste with him.
>
> Heh. One shouldn't get emotionally attacked to old, obsolete computer
> hardware. But we do anyway... 8)
>
> I'm actually thinking about selling my Amiga.
>

I'm not attached but I still have my Compaq Concerto.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_Concerto

I paid $1500 for it when they came out in '93. It was a little chunky
but when I see things like the Surface Pro 7 I think 'Haven't I been
here before 28 years ago?'

I don't think the Concerto lasted a year. I knew a woman who worked in a
computer store and when I went in looking for a laptop she said 'Come
into the back room and see the neat thing we just got in.' I told her to
put it back in the box while I was writing the check. The computer has a
lot of miles on it since it went trucking with me.

[Branimir Maksimovic]

I am really fascinated with Apple tehcnollogy. Will never buy anything
else :P

--

7-77-777
Evil Sinner!

[rbowman]

On 09/29/2021 08:09 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 29/09/2021 15:02, rbowman wrote:
>> I learned FORTRAN IV on an IBM System/360 Model 30. It had 32K of
>> core, real core, and the programs were submitted on Hollerith cards. A
>> 64 was a real step up.
>
> I think I learnt on an Elliott - I never actually saw the computer.
> We wrote programs on paper tape using a flexowriter, and got the results
> on fanfold from a line printer a week later at the next class.
>
> The next step for me was a CP/M Sharp MZ80 machine,with a built in
> screen and keyboards. And floppy disk drives. 1980 that was.
>
> the rapid turn round of code to program convinced me that computers
> might actually be usable after all.
>
>
>

I wasn't impressed by the 360 and it's peripherals that looked like
refrigerators. After I graduated I did hardware design. Ultimately TTL
let to microprocessors and whne I had something I could wirewrap up on
the kitchen table I got interested.

Even then I lived on the hardware edge, ion concentration meters,
semiconductor sputtering systems, environmental chamber controls,
aircraft fuel measurement and management systems, and so forth. It
wasn't until my current job that I did anything with a UI other than
panel buttons and switches. Just as well since I suck at UX. If you
can't do it from Konsole, it ain't worth doing.

[rbowman]

When I put BDS C on my Osborne 1 I was in tall cotton.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_1

When I'd go into a client's site they would have some sort of weird
lashup and crappy tools. With the Osborne I had all my assemblers,
compilers, editors, and so forth ready to go in a portable environment.
Well, sort of portable. It was 25 pounds but I was younger then. I even
did a hardware hack to use the parallel port to burn EPROMs. It paid
back the $1800 many times over.

The Osborne Executive fizzled but when the Boston Globe was selling
theirs as they migrated to PC's I bought 2.

[rbowman]

On 09/29/2021 09:57 AM, chrisv wrote:
> rbowman wrote:
>
>> chrisv wrote:
>>>
>>> My college programming classes used Pascal. EE curriculum.
>>
>> I loved Pascal. The University of Maine used it for a didactic language
>> and many of the new engineering hires used it. I made some bucks writing
>> dll's so Pascal could talk to real world instrumentation, robotic arms,
>> and so forth.
>>
>> The original, pure design by Wirth was characterized as 'a computer
>> language only good for telling itself secrets' .
>
> I can't say that I've met a programming language that I didn't like.
> I probably should have gotten a job programming, because I've always
> enjoyed doing it.
>
> Programming with Pascal was certainly a good learning experience. I'd
> done a lot of programming previously (even for a living), mostly in
> BASIC. But I really learned how to program "correctly" (well
> structured, etc) in college with Pascal.
>

Scheme came close for me. When one of our programmers died we bought his
books to help out his widow and I got the Wizard book and a couple of
others.

https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/sicp/index.html

I worked my way through it one winter. Scheme was conceptually
interesting but in the back of my mind I was always asking myself why
the hell anybody would do it that way.

FORTH was fun and netted me a job. With a very small kernel in assembler
it can compile itself.

https://www.amazon.com/Threaded-Interpretive-Languages-Design-Implementation/dp/007038360X

If you ever stumble over that in a used book store it's worth a couple
of bucks. It's not FORTH specific,

I did pass on one FORTH job offer. The pay was excellent but it was in
Riyadh...

[rbowman]

On 09/29/2021 11:01 AM, Clutterfreak wrote:
> On 9/29/2021 10:57 AM, chrisv wrote:
>> I can't say that I've met a programming language that I didn't like.
>
>
> I don't like javascript. Period. It's got real problems. By the time it
> was developed, programming languages had migrated from creators who were
> essentially scientists to two-bit little "engineers" who'd packed those
> desk jobs by then, creating newer ones. Complements of Reagan era.
>
> To this day all real businesses are run by programming languages that
> were already invented before the wave of "Engineers" arrived and fucked
> everything up.
>
>
>
>

We're developing a product using Angular which implies TypeScript.
Overall TypeScript is a good idea but I get frustrated with the nuances
of using an arrow function so you can access this.that and
this.otherThing outside of the scope. There's also a bit of React in the
brew so you're dealing with async, await, and Promises.

My goto is C. I'm not fond of C++ although I use it. It suffered from a
bunch of academic book writers who felt compelled to use all the
features so you spend your time writing subsets of Animal so Cat goes
meow and Dog goes woof. I haven't seen the latest edition but in the
first edition Stroustrup uses all that crap very sparingly.

C# isn't bad. Doing COM with C++ is a pain in the ass and C# abstracts a
lot of the pain away. It's all there under the syntactic sugar but I've
reached the point where the thrill of dealing with it is long gone.

[rbowman]

Assembler wasn't exactly written by engineers although they can screw it
up with AT&T versus Intel syntax. It might have been a patent issue but
along comes Zilog and they just can't use Intel mnemonics. Lemme see, is
it MOV or LD?

[rbowman]

On 09/29/2021 02:03 PM, Clutterfreak wrote:
> Well, programming I guess means different things to different people.
> When I looked into javascript some 20 years back it was pure shit as a
> programming language. I don't know what it is today and I don't even
> want to know. But back then it was lunacy, pure masochism, to use
> javascript to program.
>

And then came node.js... Given a choice of IIS, Apache, or node for a
web server I'll take node any day for quick and dirty, nginx for serious
work.

You may not like it and I may not like it, but browsers, Android, and
iOS is where it's at.

[rbowman]

On 09/29/2021 04:56 PM, chrisv wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> JavaScript is the living example of the road to hell being paved with
>> good intentions.
>>
>> there is for example, no typing of variables. So you have no idea if you
>> are dealing with a character, an integer, a floating point a pointer to
>> string or a pointer to a DOM or element thereof.
>
> Arg. Even in BASIC (where you don't need to type ints or floats) I
> type all variables. It's hard to believe that any programmer would
> not want to always know exactly what type of variable is being
> dealt-with.
>

Variables have a right to be gender fluid. 'Gee, I'm feeling like a
string today.'

I forget if it's Perl or Python but if you dig into the internals

dog = 1

is stored as an int, float, and string just in case it wants to be one
or the other.

Speaking of road to hell, there's Perl trotting down it.

[rbowman]

Forth is still around and turns up in the damnedest places.

Ada is still around, or so I'm told. Back when the Boston Sunday Globe
was the place to go for job ads I would get a kick out of 'Ada
programmer, 3 years of experience required' before there was a working
Ada compiler let alone anyone using it.

I did a phone interview with a defense firm in San Diego and they flew
me out for a face to face. The first question was 'Do you know <insert
obscure DoD language>?' to which I answered no. Interview over.

I was heart broken. January in Boston and they flew me out to San Diego
for a 15 minute interview leaving me to spend the rest of the day
walking around in the sunshine.

The only part that sucked was the delay leaving O'Hare on the way back.
It was 17 below and one of the service vehicles froze to the plane.

That adventure was your tax dollars at work.

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/29/2021 10:10 PM, rbowman wrote:
> I did a phone interview with a defense firm in San Diego and they flew
> me out for a face to face. The first question was 'Do you know <insert
> obscure DoD language>?' to which I answered no. Interview over.

So they didn't trust the phone lines to even mention that phrase on?
Would rather have you flown over to ask you in person? Hehe :)

Nothing in the world, let alone USA, is that secret. Interviewer must've
been a crook the likes of which have filled this country's defense
industries. Devouring people's money and in return pretending to be
"some shit."

And then they lose it to "Talibans." :)

[The Starmaker]

chrisv wrote:
>
> Clutterfreak wrote:
>
> >He'd left the max
> >24g RAM and the graphics card in it intact. His concern was that this
> >jewel doesn't go to waste. With the new S-something he'd purchased this
> >one would go to waste with him.
>
> Heh. One shouldn't get emotionally attacked to old, obsolete computer
> hardware. But we do anyway... 8)
>
> I'm actually thinking about selling my Amiga.
>

> --
> "recovering from Covid means you're immune, truly immune" - RonB,
> lying shamelessly


I have old programs I like to run again..but requires:

NewsAgent111-BE.zip for
BeOS 5 - Kaffe for BeOS
RedHat Linux - Sun's Java Runtime Environment (JRE)

or:
NewsAgent111-MS.exe for
Windows 95 - \Windows\System


What kind of computer runs Windows 95???


Which runs NewsAgent better, RedHat Linux or Windows 95


i just want to mess around with it..


--
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable, and challenge
the unchallengeable.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 30/09/2021 04:00, rbowman wrote:
> Speaking of road to hell, there's Perl trotting down it.

I couldn't agree more.

I always felt like strangling PERL gurus. And regexp gurus. They knew
everything there was to know about the languages, except how to write a
simple, maintainable, comprehensible and useful program in them.



--
“It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of
intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on
intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is
futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into,
we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every
criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a
power-directed system of thought.”
Sir Roger Scruton

[The Natural Philosopher]

I learnt C initially with BDS C and CP/M


--
For in reason, all government without the consent of the governed is the
very definition of slavery.

Jonathan Swift

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 30/09/2021 07:53, The Starmaker wrote:
> What kind of computer runs Windows 95???

A linux computer with VirtualBox

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

I think in FORTH & program in C/C++;
naturally, people freak out when they see my source code.

[rbowman]

First, a clarification: the Concerto as a Compaq device was discontinued
quickly with little fanfare. afaik, mine would still work if I dug it out.

The only Apple device I've ever owned is a iShuffle gifted to me by my
boss one Christmas. As I've said before, nobody ever wanted to pay me to
develop software for an Apple so I had no need for one.

[rbowman]

On 09/30/2021 05:03 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 30/09/2021 04:00, rbowman wrote:
>> Speaking of road to hell, there's Perl trotting down it.
>
> I couldn't agree more.
>
> I always felt like strangling PERL gurus. And regexp gurus. They knew
> everything there was to know about the languages, except how to write a
> simple, maintainable, comprehensible and useful program in them.
>
>
>

There are a few Perl scripts floating around that were written by a
couple of support people who are long gone. If asked about them, my
reply is they are not one of our released tools so good luck.

There are also a couple of SQL statements an employee known as Evil Ryan
spent months crafting. At one point they failed because an older DB2
release only had a 4k buffer. They are a tour de force of SQL functions,
aggregates, cases, and joins, all on one line.

They are about 20 years old, usually work, and are passed on through the
generations because nobody understands what they're doing and are
reluctant to touch them. A lot of legacy Perl is the same.

[rbowman]

On 09/29/2021 10:16 PM, Clutterfreak wrote:
> On 9/29/2021 10:10 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> I did a phone interview with a defense firm in San Diego and they flew
>> me out for a face to face. The first question was 'Do you know <insert
>> obscure DoD language>?' to which I answered no. Interview over.
>
>
> So they didn't trust the phone lines to even mention that phrase on?
> Would rather have you flown over to ask you in person? Hehe :)
>
> Nothing in the world, let alone USA, is that secret. Interviewer must've
> been a crook the likes of which have filled this country's defense
> industries. Devouring people's money and in return pretending to be
> "some shit."
>
> And then they lose it to "Talibans." :)
>
>

Yup. I only worked on one DoD project They hired a programmer who lived
in Seattle. He moved himself and his family across the country to
Vermont before anybody bothered to ask about his wife. She was a Mexican
national which disqualified him from the necessary clearance.

The usual problems that come from letting HR hire anybody but janitors
are aggravated by the hiring is actually done by other contractors, not
direct employees of the target company. The defense industry spins off a
lot of niche specialists in separate cottage industries. My nephew did
very well as sort of a technical writer. He knew the government jargon
for proposals, design documents, and so forth.

The outcome is very expensive aircraft that don't fly very well,
littoral combat vessels that can be sunk by a jihadi in a Zodiac, and
destroyers with weapon systems that the Navy can't afford to buy
ammunition for.

[rbowman]

On 09/30/2021 07:36 AM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
> I think in FORTH & program in C/C++;
> naturally, people freak out when they see my source code.
>

I can believe that... Reverse Polish Notation with Hungarian notation
would be more cryptic than something was AES 256 encoding.

[chrisv]

Have you seen Relf's code? It's intentionally cryptic. It's
horrible.

--
"Windows Phone is far more successful in its market than Linux desktop
is in its market." - some dumb fsck

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/30/2021 8:36 AM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
> I think in FORTH & program in C/C++;
> naturally, people freak out when they see my source code.
>

Sure about that? YOU should freak out when your code erroneously says I
started a new thread, .. but you don't.

"It does it by itself" was your response when I and others pointed that
to you.

I respect someone who sells lollipops more than a programmer who comes
up with that response. They do the job right.

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

Hopefully, the Internet will be the downfall of
the ExcessivelyOppressive Euro-American Empire.

BigTech, BigMedia & BigGovernment take a massive,
crumbling hit every time they ban "wrong thought".

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

You (ChrisV) replied ( to Bowman ):

> > Reverse Polish Notation with Hungarian notation

> > would be more cryptic than AES 256.

>
> Have you seen Relf's code? It's intentionally cryptic.
> It's horrible.

Have you seen "Dilbert.COM" ? anyone can understand it
because it's not the source code of a useful app.

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

You (Clutterfreak) replied ( to me ):
> your code erroneously says I started a new thread.

You must have me confused with someone else.
I don't know what you're talking about.

Often, I have 10 instances of my "C/C++ console" running simultaneously.

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

You (Clutterfreak) replied ( to me ):

> [ My newsreader ] erroneously says I started a new thread.

"z1", my newsreader, has no such problems.

Thunderbird can be made to run "right" ( however you want it );
but laymen find it hard to configure.

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/30/2021 9:51 AM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
> You must have me confused with someone else.
> I don't know what you're talking about.

Wow.. Chinese fentanyl perhaps..

So you're also capable of totally forgetting your fuck up soon after
it's mentioned to you :)

You are a product of Reagan era :-)))) Hahah

[Siri Cruise]

2In 7artic 26<sj4i
12Clutt 33<clut 6wrote

1> 2On 99/30/8:36 3AM, 15Jeff- 6wrote
1> 1> 1I 5think 2in 5FORTH 1& 7progr 2in 5C/C++;
1> 1> 10natur 6peopl 5freak 3out 4when 4they 3see 2my 6sourc
5code.
1> 1>
1>
1> 4Sure 5about 5that? 3YOU 6shoul 5freak 3out 4when 4your 4code
11erron 4says 1I
1> 7start 1a 3new 7threa 2.. 3but 3you 6don't
1>
1> 1" 2It 4does 2it 2by 7itsel 3was 4your 8respo 4when 1I 3and
6other 7point 4that
1> 2to 4you.
1>
1> 1I 7respe 7someo 3who 4sells 9lolli 4more 4than 1a 10progr
3who 5comes
1> 2up 4with 4that 9respo 4They 2do 3the 3job 6right

11Trans 8provi 4free 2of 7charg

--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
I am an Andrea Doria sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/30/2021 10:03 AM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
> You (Clutterfreak) replied ( to me ):
>> [ My newsreader ] erroneously says I started a new thread.

Are you fucking stoned right now? I said your CODE said that. Do you
want links to it? If that helps, that is!

I'm telling you, you need coffee not fentanyl :-))

[RabidHussar]

cumstainv is just upset that your code isn't homoerotic enough for its
tastes.


--
@RabidHussar

[Clutterfreak]

On 9/30/2021 9:20 AM, rbowman wrote:
> The outcome is very expensive aircraft that don't fly very well,
> littoral combat vessels that can be sunk by a jihadi in a Zodiac, and
> destroyers with weapon systems that the Navy can't afford to buy
> ammunition for.

That experience has been there with them at least since WWII. German
equipment, especially tanks, could not fight the war against small
little things Soviets had hurriedly built to throw shells at them. In
every confrontations from Stalingrad back to Berlin German mighty tanks
lost the battle against those cheap little things.

Experience is there! But we're dealing with first rate crooks. So
nothing of that nature would help. It would be like reasongin with
Jeff-Relf right now.