MX Linux has an old-school look and feel. Here's why it's so popular

[Internetado]

If you're looking for a Linux distribution with a perfect blend of
usability and customization, MX Linux might do the trick.

MX Linux is currently listed as the most downloaded Linux distribution
on Distrowatch. This might come as a surprise to a lot of people,
especially given it ranks above Linux Mint, Pop!_OS, and Ubuntu. For
those who've never heard of MX Linux, it's based on Debian's stable
branch as a cooperative venture between antiX and what's left of the
MEPIS Linux communities. With Xfce as its default desktop (you can also
download spins with either the KDE Plasma or Fluxbox desktops), it's a
user-friendly, fast operating system that is a great option for those
new to Linux and even those with years of skill under their belt.

One aspect of MX Linux that appeals to me is that the flagship version
(Xfce) looks and feels like old-school Linux but with just enough
modernity to make it a viable option for today's users.

Its focus is ease-of-use and high performance. If you want an even more
modern interface, you can choose the KDE Plasma version. You can go
with the Fluxbox edition if you need to eke even more performance out
of your system...
(continue)

https://www.zdnet.com/article/mx-linux-has-an-old-school-look-and-feel-heres-why-its-so-popular/#ftag=RSSbaffb68

--
Internetado
Brasil <-- Portugal

[Johnny]

I have been using it for at least three years.

I think the default position of the panel is on the left side. Once I
figured out how to move it to the bottom, I have been happy ever since.

[25B.Z969]

On 8/9/22 7:34 AM, Internetado wrote:
> If you're looking for a Linux distribution with a perfect blend of
> usability and customization, MX Linux might do the trick.

This reply, courtesy of MX Linux ...

I've got it on three laptops and two desktops and
one server. Have for years. MX has the "right balance"
IMHO and packs a lot in its mid-sized distro, including
some goodies you rarely find elsewhere.

But I do install LXDE ...

> MX Linux is currently listed as the most downloaded Linux distribution
> on Distrowatch. This might come as a surprise to a lot of people,
> especially given it ranks above Linux Mint, Pop!_OS, and Ubuntu. For
> those who've never heard of MX Linux, it's based on Debian's stable
> branch as a cooperative venture between antiX and what's left of the
> MEPIS Linux communities. With Xfce as its default desktop (you can also
> download spins with either the KDE Plasma or Fluxbox desktops), it's a
> user-friendly, fast operating system that is a great option for those
> new to Linux and even those with years of skill under their belt.
>
> One aspect of MX Linux that appeals to me is that the flagship version
> (Xfce) looks and feels like old-school Linux but with just enough
> modernity to make it a viable option for today's users.
>
> Its focus is ease-of-use and high performance. If you want an even more
> modern interface, you can choose the KDE Plasma version. You can go with
> the Fluxbox edition if you need to eke even more performance out of your
> system...
> (continue)
>
> https://www.zdnet.com/article/mx-linux-has-an-old-school-look-and-feel-heres-why-its-so-popular/#ftag=RSSbaffb68

MINT is nice, but fatter. Depends on what you're looking
for in a Linux for any specific purpose. MINT doesn't work
right on my sub-notebook either ... the touchpad is all
screwed up and can't be fixed.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 09.08.22 um 19:53 schrieb Andreas Kohlbach:

> On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 09:32:54 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>
>> MINT is nice, but fatter.
>

> Probably depends on the desktop. I doubt the "core" of MX or MINT differ
> much in size.

>
>> Depends on what you're looking for in a Linux for any specific
>> purpose. MINT doesn't work right on my sub-notebook either ... the
>> touchpad is all screwed up and can't be fixed.
>

> Had Debian on my old machine (laptop) and added MATE later. Installed
> MINT with MATE on my newer PC (desktop), so no touchpad. But doubt there
> are general problems with touchpads on MINT. Otherwise it'll be known and
> few people would use MINT.

I totally agree, Andreas. I'm using Mint on a MBAir with a touchpad and
on a Dell Inspiron with a touchpad.

> Am about to add Cinnamon to MINT at some point...

Both are running as Cinnamon flavor.


--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 09/08/2022 18:53, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 09:32:54 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>

>> MINT is nice, but fatter.
>

> Probably depends on the desktop. I doubt the "core" of MX or MINT differ
> much in size.
>

>> Depends on what you're looking for in a Linux for any specific
>> purpose. MINT doesn't work right on my sub-notebook either ... the
>> touchpad is all screwed up and can't be fixed.
>

> Had Debian on my old machine (laptop) and added MATE later. Installed
> MINT with MATE on my newer PC (desktop), so no touchpad. But doubt there
> are general problems with touchpads on MINT. Otherwise it'll be known and
> few people would use MINT.
>

> Am about to add Cinnamon to MINT at some point...

I tried cinnamon. Prettier, buggier and not so functional. Lnux's answer
to Steve jobs

I have used mint mate on 5 laptops so far and all touchpads work after
setting them up correctly in the control centre


--
There’s a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
that sound good.

Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

[25B.Z969]

On 8/9/22 1:53 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 09:32:54 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>

>> MINT is nice, but fatter.
>

> Probably depends on the desktop. I doubt the "core" of MX or MINT differ
> much in size.

I checked ... and, pared way down, the 'cores' are pretty
much the same - as they are for anything called a 'Linux'.
It's the ORNAMENTS they hang on that little core that make
the big diff.

MINT tries to do a lot of what Winders does, including a lot
of eye-candy and multimedia. This makes it more friendly for
the "general user" out of the box. MX is more picky - and
if you want all that fluff you'll have to install it yourself.

For fun, check into Slitaz Linux ... it's really meant to be
run in RAM, though you can accomplish something of an install.
It's TINY TINY, even with a very minimal GUI. Leave out the
GUI and it's microscopic. That's the real core of Linux -
does all an OS is supposed to do. BUT, if you're dedicated,
you COULD build it up and up into a big fat MINT or SUSE
equiv with a KDE desktop.

MINT does have one especially redeeming value though, it's
unusually good at figuring out hardware - it'll run on brand
new, or seriously old, or any mix thereof. Whatever tweaks
their team made to the hardware-detection/driver-installation
software are damned good.

>> Depends on what you're looking for in a Linux for any specific
>> purpose. MINT doesn't work right on my sub-notebook either ... the
>> touchpad is all screwed up and can't be fixed.
>

> Had Debian on my old machine (laptop) and added MATE later. Installed
> MINT with MATE on my newer PC (desktop), so no touchpad. But doubt there
> are general problems with touchpads on MINT. Otherwise it'll be known and
> few people would use MINT.
>
> Am about to add Cinnamon to MINT at some point...

Ewwwwww ...... :-)

Tastes vary. Mine runs to the LXDE experience. JUST enough ...

Subnotebooks can be a bit strange. MINT - and most Deb
derivatives - may have problems. The touchpad stuff goes
broad and deeper than you'd think. Too many config files
with too many ill/non-documented params that all have to
be in harmony. Not worth it. MX works out of the box -
KALI does too for some reason. So far as I know MX was
the first to really "get" eEMC 'disks' and install to
them properly as well - a smarter GRUB.

[25B.Z969]

Try a Dell P24t ... problems ........

I've even had issues with an HP Pavillion.

My ancient, now dead because I dropped it while standing
on a ladder, Asus Eee PC ... at the time only MX had a
smart enough GRUB to install properly to the eemc mem
'drive'.

LOTS of work trying to track down the touchpad issues.
No luck.

But MX works out of the box and is snappier too. Even
some (distro-specific) tools like "clone your existing
system to an ISO" (from INSIDE the running system). Wish
they ALL had that !

[Andreas Kohlbach]

On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 22:29:50 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>
> On 8/9/22 3:09 PM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 09.08.22 um 19:53 schrieb Andreas Kohlbach:
>>

>>> Am about to add Cinnamon to MINT at some point...
>> Both are running as Cinnamon flavor.

I tend to *add* it, as i added MATE on a Debian which ran Gnome3. Just ti
have an alternative.

> Try a Dell P24t ... problems ........
>
> I've even had issues with an HP Pavillion.
>
> My ancient, now dead because I dropped it while standing
> on a ladder, Asus Eee PC ... at the time only MX had a
> smart enough GRUB to install properly to the eemc mem
> 'drive'.

Might need OS Prober to "see" all operating systems next to Linux
installed

> LOTS of work trying to track down the touchpad issues.
> No luck.

What are the issue exactly?
--
Andreas

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 10.08.22 um 19:16 schrieb Andreas Kohlbach:

> On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 22:20:16 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>
>> On 8/9/22 1:53 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 09:32:54 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> MINT is nice, but fatter.
>>> Probably depends on the desktop. I doubt the "core" of MX or MINT
>>> differ
>>> much in size.
>>
>> I checked ... and, pared way down, the 'cores' are pretty
>> much the same - as they are for anything called a 'Linux'.
>> It's the ORNAMENTS they hang on that little core that make
>> the big diff.
>>
>> MINT tries to do a lot of what Winders does, including a lot
>> of eye-candy and multimedia.
>

> Strangely I not get any eye-candy, like animated windows in MATE,
> although the function is checked.

Whether it works depends on the performance of the hardware IIRC.

[Bobbie Sellers]

On 8/10/22 10:16, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 22:20:16 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>

>> On 8/9/22 1:53 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 09:32:54 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> MINT is nice, but fatter.
>>> Probably depends on the desktop. I doubt the "core" of MX or MINT
>>> differ
>>> much in size.
>>
>> I checked ... and, pared way down, the 'cores' are pretty
>> much the same - as they are for anything called a 'Linux'.
>> It's the ORNAMENTS they hang on that little core that make
>> the big diff.
>>
>> MINT tries to do a lot of what Winders does, including a lot
>> of eye-candy and multimedia.
>

> Strangely I not get any eye-candy, like animated windows in MATE,
> although the function is checked.
>

> I seem to miss some packages. For example only recently I was told to
> install Caja if I want to be able to edit menu entries. But still miss
> the function to change the language: OS runs English default, but for an
> additional user I want French. I was able to set the TTY for that user to
> French by the magic of setting $LANGUAGE, but cannot change it in
> MATE. There is no "language" option in the Control Center.
>
> Anyone any idea what [package] I could miss there?

>
>> This makes it more friendly for
>> the "general user" out of the box. MX is more picky - and
>> if you want all that fluff you'll have to install it yourself.
>

> Seems that most of the distros are just - umm - distros. A similar core and
> different ornaments added. Much bases on Ubuntu, while Ubuntu is more or
> less Debian. Anybody could just install Debian and add what ever he
> fancies. I did this on my last installation 2009 (still running
> today). But getting older and lazier for the new hardware I chose MINT
> with MATE (and might add Cinnamon at some point).

>
>> For fun, check into Slitaz Linux ... it's really meant to be
>> run in RAM, though you can accomplish something of an install.
>> It's TINY TINY, even with a very minimal GUI. Leave out the
>> GUI and it's microscopic. That's the real core of Linux -
>> does all an OS is supposed to do. BUT, if you're dedicated,
>> you COULD build it up and up into a big fat MINT or SUSE
>> equiv with a KDE desktop.
>

> Supposed to be lightning fast.
>
> I try to remember what "Linux on a floppy" I used around 2003/2004. After a
> rough travel through Europe the hard disk I kept with me got damaged. Put
> it in a used computer and it wouldn't boot, although GRUB (or was it even
> LILO?) showed. Went to a small computer store with internet access,
> bought one (later ten in fact, as it turned out half of them were dead
> already) and downloaded a tiny Linux (hmm, Puppy Linux?), which I
> booted. The hard disc was mount-able and I noticed after some e2fsck that
> pretty much all ended up in Lost+Found, but with broken file names. After
> a lot of trial and error I was able to get the system back.
>
> Oh yeah, that floppy Linux (1.44 MB) loaded completely into the RAM and
> therefore was really fast. :-)

Well maybe it was Damn Small Linux which used to be the goto
distribution on a disk. A very skilled and Educated Linux user with
and a member of SF LUG helped with that project.

it was not that long ago that the Flash Drives were cutting edge now
you have a variety with persistent partitions so that a bootable system
on a Flash Drive and move your work easily between different
machines EasyOS is one such.

bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS
the Perfect Computer Linus Operating System(for me),
and a minor case of hypergraphia.

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
> I try to remember what "Linux on a floppy" I used around 2003/2004. After a
> rough travel through Europe the hard disk I kept with me got damaged. Put
> it in a used computer and it wouldn't boot, although GRUB (or was it even
> LILO?) showed. Went to a small computer store with internet access,
> bought one (later ten in fact, as it turned out half of them were dead
> already) and downloaded a tiny Linux (hmm, Puppy Linux?), which I
> booted. The hard disc was mount-able and I noticed after some e2fsck that
> pretty much all ended up in Lost+Found, but with broken file names. After
> a lot of trial and error I was able to get the system back.
>
> Oh yeah, that floppy Linux (1.44 MB) loaded completely into the RAM and
> therefore was really fast. :-)

Linux still fits on a floppy:
https://bits.p1x.in/floppinux-0-2-2/

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

[25B.Z969]

On 8/10/22 1:16 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 22:20:16 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>

>> On 8/9/22 1:53 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 09:32:54 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> MINT is nice, but fatter.
>>> Probably depends on the desktop. I doubt the "core" of MX or MINT
>>> differ
>>> much in size.
>>
>> I checked ... and, pared way down, the 'cores' are pretty
>> much the same - as they are for anything called a 'Linux'.
>> It's the ORNAMENTS they hang on that little core that make
>> the big diff.
>>
>> MINT tries to do a lot of what Winders does, including a lot
>> of eye-candy and multimedia.
>

> Strangely I not get any eye-candy, like animated windows in MATE,
> although the function is checked.

Hmm ... an obvious defect. They'll fix it.

> change the language: OS runs English default, but for an
> additional user I want French. I was able to set the TTY for that user to
> French by the magic of setting $LANGUAGE, but cannot change it in
> MATE. There is no "language" option in the Control Center.

MATE doesn't do everything. KDE might - but it's
nearly double the size/cycle-burden.

> Anyone any idea what [package] I could miss there?
>

>> This makes it more friendly for
>> the "general user" out of the box. MX is more picky - and
>> if you want all that fluff you'll have to install it yourself.
>

> Seems that most of the distros are just - umm - distros. A similar core and
> different ornaments added. Much bases on Ubuntu, while Ubuntu is more or
> less Debian. Anybody could just install Debian and add what ever he
> fancies. I did this on my last installation 2009 (still running
> today). But getting older and lazier for the new hardware I chose MINT
> with MATE (and might add Cinnamon at some point).

Debian seems to be the best "base" ... but what they hang
on it varies wildly.

But there are Red Hat and Arch variants too (though most
of the RH ones have that HORRIBLE Gnome desktop). In any
case you can check 'em out, see if they do it for you.
IMHO OpenSUSE is the 'Cadillac' distro for the RPM side
of the equation. Arch ... try EndeavorOS and see - but
it IS more work that anything based on Deb.

>> For fun, check into Slitaz Linux ... it's really meant to be
>> run in RAM, though you can accomplish something of an install.
>> It's TINY TINY, even with a very minimal GUI. Leave out the
>> GUI and it's microscopic. That's the real core of Linux -
>> does all an OS is supposed to do. BUT, if you're dedicated,
>> you COULD build it up and up into a big fat MINT or SUSE
>> equiv with a KDE desktop.
>

> Supposed to be lightning fast.

Of course ... ultra-tiny and, ideally, 100% in-RAM.

It IS a "usable" system though. You could engineer
a server around it if you wanted. Haven't tried
it on an rPI ... dunno if there IS an ARM version.


> I try to remember what "Linux on a floppy" I used around 2003/2004.a

They were selling an early Red Hat WAY back on retail
shelves. VERY early, crude, Xorg GUI. Really fun getting
the mouse and keyboard to work right. A SUSE appeared
a year or two later, green box with Gecko. It was much
better. I used SUSE/OpenSUSE for a long time (still do
to some extent) - a "Cadillac" distro. Recently it
screwed me by taking away some common hardware-info-related
commands and using an inferior version of ffmpeg. Still
have an OpenSUSE on a VM, but ...

> After a
> rough travel through Europe the hard disk I kept with me got damaged. Put
> it in a used computer and it wouldn't boot, although GRUB (or was it even

> LILO?) showed..

GRUB came later ... it was mostly LILO for awhile there.
It worked. Tweaking it's params was even harder than
with GRUB though.

> already) and downloaded a tiny Linux (hmm, Puppy Linux?), which I
> booted. The hard disc was mount-able and I noticed after some e2fsck that
> pretty much all ended up in Lost+Found, but with broken file names. After
> a lot of trial and error I was able to get the system back.

Puppy, with it's very odd GUI, puts me off. However it IS
usable/functional. It has its place. For ultra-tiny I'd
go with Slitaz these days. There ARE smaller, but they
fade into terminal-only, sometimes not even much of a
terminal. As said, the "real Linux core" is surprisingly
small - but it's NOT particularly 'friendly', more for
masochists and obsessives. At that point MSDOS becomes
a practical competitor. I have that in a VM ... with
Turbo Pascal and some CLI FORTAN and PASCAL compilers.
Also have CP/M-86 .....

Earlier Linuxes (Lini ?) were very touchy if you had a drive
in fstab that didn't actually exist, or got re-named/re-ID'd
somehow. The RH derived can still be a bit that way. The
user sees total boot failure or screaming about missing vital
files. Debs just give up on "missing" mountpoints after awhile.
It is possible to define how LONG it will keep looking. A MINT
I was using hung up a LONG time trying to find drives on the
USB multi-card interface ... I just had to tweak that.

> Oh yeah, that floppy Linux (1.44 MB) loaded completely into the RAM and
> therefore was really fast. :-)

Not 100% sure what that one would have been. From the mid '90s
to the early 2000s various US retailers would put assorted
Linux distros on the software shelf.

The old RedHat I bought initially - on 5-1/4 disks. MIGHT
still have them in The Heap somewhere ......

The pre-Linux pickings were poor. XENIX-86 mostly. Kinda
expensive and not very well optimized. Linus did better.

Recent experiences - Oracle Solaris ... WHAT A PAIN.
OpenIndiana(solaris) ... better, but STILL a pain.
The official Solaris seems intent on preventing you
from finding/installing programs/utilities. Oracle
Linux ... not TOO horrible. Same nasty Gnome-ish look
and feel of RHEL/CENTOS alas with the giant icons
and messed-up way of getting to anything relevant.

[25B.Z969]

On 8/10/22 12:55 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Aug 2022 22:29:50 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>
>> On 8/9/22 3:09 PM, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 09.08.22 um 19:53 schrieb Andreas Kohlbach:
>>>
>>>> Am about to add Cinnamon to MINT at some point...
>>> Both are running as Cinnamon flavor.
>
> I tend to *add* it, as i added MATE on a Debian which ran Gnome3. Just ti
> have an alternative.
>
>> Try a Dell P24t ... problems ........
>>
>> I've even had issues with an HP Pavillion.
>>
>> My ancient, now dead because I dropped it while standing
>> on a ladder, Asus Eee PC ... at the time only MX had a
>> smart enough GRUB to install properly to the eemc mem
>> 'drive'.
>
> Might need OS Prober to "see" all operating systems next to Linux
> installed

I only install Linux. Even my newest laptop - Winders
did not run for a single SECOND on it before I nuked
everything and installed MX.

>> LOTS of work trying to track down the touchpad issues.
>> No luck.
>
> What are the issue exactly?

The WORST aspect is false detection. I've tried turning
down the sensitivity, but it only works just so well.
Tweaks and more tweaks to the deep-down Synaptics config
files. You're typing here ... then suddenly the cursor
is half a dozen lines elsewhere like you'd moved/clicked.
Sometimes, if a thumb is NEAR the pad, an up/down cursor
key STICKS and a web-page runs wildly all the way to the
bottom or top.

I think it responds every time a UFO passes nearby.
For awhile I had a rectangle of paper shopping-bag
taped over the touchpad .... yes, THAT bad, and NOT
just one model of laptop. There was a major UFO
nutter living half a block away for awhile ... at
this point I'm convinced they're hovering around
looking for him :-)

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 11/08/2022 06:39, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>
>>>    LOTS of work trying to track down the touchpad issues.
>>>    No luck.
>>
>> What are the issue exactly?
>
>   The WORST aspect is false detection. I've tried turning
>   down the sensitivity, but it only works just so well.
>   Tweaks and more tweaks to the deep-down Synaptics config
>   files. You're typing here ... then suddenly the cursor
>   is half a dozen lines elsewhere like you'd moved/clicked.
>   Sometimes, if a thumb is NEAR the pad, an up/down cursor
>   key STICKS and a web-page runs wildly all the way to the
>   bottom or top.

That sounds like a hardware issue

I get similar on my android phone. If I pick it up suddenly it registers
touch events



--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

[25B.Z969]

On 8/11/22 9:26 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 01:16:48 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>
>> On 8/10/22 1:16 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>
>>> Strangely I not get any eye-candy, like animated windows in MATE,
>>> although the function is checked.
>>
>> Hmm ... an obvious defect. They'll fix it.
>

> I doubt. I may just miss a package or messed up a config.
>
> [...]

>
>>> I try to remember what "Linux on a floppy" I used around 2003/2004.a
>>
>> They were selling an early Red Hat WAY back on retail
>> shelves. VERY early, crude, Xorg GUI. Really fun getting
>> the mouse and keyboard to work right. A SUSE appeared
>> a year or two later, green box with Gecko. It was much
>> better. I used SUSE/OpenSUSE for a long time (still do
>> to some extent) - a "Cadillac" distro. Recently it
>> screwed me by taking away some common hardware-info-related
>> commands and using an inferior version of ffmpeg. Still
>> have an OpenSUSE on a VM, but ...
>

> The floppy Linux I meant had no GUI.

Neither did that RH distro ... unless you went through
hoops to install it.

By that timeframe, I don't think you could sell a system
with absolutely no hope of a GUI. People were already
used to Winders and Apple.

> Looking for "tiny" "Linux" and "floppy" there seems to be a recent
> development called Floppinux.
>
> Now found what I had. It was tomsrtbt.

You found that on a retail shelf ???

2002 ... and the wiki says you could only create
a floppy of it using DOS tweaks so you could
pack 1.7mb on a DSDD floppy.

Anyway, yea, a zero-GUI Linux, just the REAL basics,
can be impressively small. Now "useful" ... that's
another question.

Most Unix-like systems in the late 90s came on
several floppies ... load one, then the next,
then the next, howevermany it took. Not too
long back I installed several DOS-era compilers
on a DOS VM - one required seven "disks".

Alas before Linus, anything "Unix-like" was normally
too $$$ for ordinary individuals. XENIX, SCO ....

[25B.Z969]

On 8/11/22 9:35 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 09:30:36 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>> On 11/08/2022 06:39, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>>
>>>>>    LOTS of work trying to track down the touchpad issues.
>>>>>    No luck.
>>>>
>>>> What are the issue exactly?
>>>   The WORST aspect is false detection. I've tried turning
>>>   down the sensitivity, but it only works just so well.
>>>   Tweaks and more tweaks to the deep-down Synaptics config
>>>   files. You're typing here ... then suddenly the cursor
>>>   is half a dozen lines elsewhere like you'd moved/clicked.
>>>   Sometimes, if a thumb is NEAR the pad, an up/down cursor
>>>   key STICKS and a web-page runs wildly all the way to the
>>>   bottom or top.
>>
>> That sounds like a hardware issue

It sort of is ... but as this appears across two
different brands made several years apart ...... it's
a software issue that's not dealing with a HW issue.

I still think it's aliens :-)

>> I get similar on my android phone. If I pick it up suddenly it
>> registers touch events
>

> Same here. Mine does it since I accidentally sprayed some fluid over. Got
> better over the following months, but on some days it's acting up.

Was the "fluid" plain water - or something containing
salts sugars or proteins likely to attract moisture ?

Possible weird fix ... remove battery and literally soak
the thing in a bowl of distilled water for a few hours.
Then dry it in the sun for a day or two or three. Alas
some touch-screens can't withstand even distilled water ...
so LOOK IT UP first.

[Bobbie Sellers]

Well you have to buy an Amiga Computer to use it and it had an
excellent shell, micro-kernel and 68000 procesor with up to 8 MB of ram.
Came on a ROM chip to upgrade the kernel, seveal floppies of special
commodore coding but had a decent storage capacity somewhat better than
MSDOS and clear simple commands and you alway ran as root with no
passwords whatsoever. The Gui was simple but very effect and it could
run with a TV as monitor. Amiga DOS from 1.2-3.9. From personal
computer to net-workable.

bliss - up too late

[25B.Z969]

HAD one - the original. Had to split the cost between two
credit cards. SO many "Guru Meditations" though that I gave
it away. The latter versions WERE much better, but I didn't
have the cash ....

> Came on a ROM chip to upgrade the kernel, seveal floppies of special
> commodore coding but had a decent storage capacity somewhat better than
> MSDOS and clear simple commands and you alway ran as root with no
> passwords whatsoever. The Gui was simple but very effect and it could
> run with a TV as monitor.  Amiga DOS from 1.2-3.9.  From personal
> computer to net-workable.

Yes, Amiga evolved - but without ME. It was a GOOD IDEA too.
Alas Apple kinda surpassed them - and Winders underpriced
Apple except for elitist snobs - so ....

Lots of Good Ideas bit the dust. Sometimes for good reasons,
sometimes just the roll of the marketplace dice.

What would a Commodore-1280 have been like ?

[25B.Z969]

On 8/12/22 3:19 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 00:50:44 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>
>> On 8/11/22 9:35 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>
>>>> I get similar on my android phone. If I pick it up suddenly it
>>>> registers touch events
>>> Same here. Mine does it since I accidentally sprayed some fluid
>>> over. Got
>>> better over the following months, but on some days it's acting up.
>>
>> Was the "fluid" plain water - or something containing
>> salts sugars or proteins likely to attract moisture ?
>

> I think it was pure water.

>
>> Possible weird fix ... remove battery and literally soak
>> the thing in a bowl of distilled water for a few hours.
>> Then dry it in the sun for a day or two or three. Alas
>> some touch-screens can't withstand even distilled water ...
>> so LOOK IT UP first.
>

> Thanks. But it's so old I need a new at some point anyway.

Yea ... but then you can do interesting EXPERIMENTS
with it too :-)

If yer kid dunked it in chocolate milk ... bad situation.
if it just fell in the sink, much more hope.

[vladimir...@gmail.com]

Well, good news. I've just checked and it ships with SysV init by default! Few will argue that it's just important as avoiding the pile of stinking garbage that is Gnome Desktop.

"MX Linux ships with systemd present but sysVinit is still the default init system by default. Thanks to the systemd-shim system, users can choose to boot installed systems whichever way they choose."

I generally run NetBSD and OpenIndiana but willing to try a Linux that does not come with SystemD and other crap invented by the intellectual midget Poettering and his retarded Linux Desktop foundation.

[Computer Nerd Kev]

vladimir...@gmail.com <vladimir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, good news. I've just checked and it ships with SysV init by
> default!

Indeed it does, via the AntiX project that it's based on
(personally I much prefer AntiX, but each to their own). One thing
to note is that although Systemd-free, the developers decided to
still use the Debian package repos and supplement them with their
own "nosystemd" (or some label like that) packages that they host
on their own servers/mirrors. This is in contrast to the Devuan
project which maintains its own package repo for all packages so
that a standard installation doesn't touch the Debian repos at all.

I tried going down both paths (installing Devuan via Star Linux,
which is mainly just a more stripped-down distro than the official
Devuan release). Devuan has been OK, except that there aren't any
official package repo mirrors in Australia, but I haven't attempted
a OS version upgrade with it yet. With AntiX I have attempted an
upgrade, and spent a few hours in dependency hell because the
package managers (when apt-get failed, I moved to Aptitude) tended
to select newer Systemd-based packages on the Debian servers
instead of the AntiX ones when resolving dependencies. At the same
time I couldn't just remove the Debian repos from
/etc/apt/sources.list because most of the other dependencies were
only on the Debian servers, so the only way to go was to take
things one error message at a time and select all the
Systemd-related package versions manually (geeze it's wormed its
way into a lot of stuff!).

I don't see how I'd have the same problem with Devuan because it's
only using Devuan's own repos for everything, so I've settled on
Devuan-based distros as my Debian replacement moving forward.
Though not having actually tried a version upgrage with Devuan
myself yet, I guess it could potentially have its own problems, but
I doubt it.

No, I don't know of a Devuan-based equivalent to MX Linux. MX isn't
really to my taste anyway.

[25B.Z969]

On 8/12/22 3:17 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 00:43:53 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>
>> On 8/11/22 9:26 AM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>
>>> Looking for "tiny" "Linux" and "floppy" there seems to be a recent
>>> development called Floppinux.
>>> Now found what I had. It was tomsrtbt.
>>
>> You found that on a retail shelf ???
>

> No, I bought blank floppy disks from a small computer store, which also
> had an "internet cafe" (WIFI wasn't a thing back in 2003). So I put the
> image with an image creator on that floppy disk and took it home to boot
> the broken hard disk.

Ah, yea, I didn't expect you would have found it at Wal-Mart.
There were still lots of 'computer stores' where you could
find all kinds of weird stuff. One semi-nuts/technogeek
with an IQ surely around 200 made $$$ selling his own, hand
writ, versions of the popular cartridge video games (and
they were sometimes better). He wrote them on a PET, in HEX
CODED binary ... said it gave him a buzz. Strongly reminded
me of that character in the "Real Genius" movie that lived
behind the closet wall. He always had funky systems/adapters/
software/parts/etc you'd NEVER find at normal retail.

I do remember "internet cafe's" ... a retail-sized space with
a bunch of PCs - all ultimately hard-wired to the net, sometimes
via dial-up. There was a fairly recent 'hero' movie - the
feminized Capt Marvel - where our heroine visits such a place ...
AltaVista search engine, Netscape, Mosaic :-)

Such places persisted for quite awhile outside of the USA.

There were some good things from the Old Days however ...
I miss BBS's, the CompuServe Forums were VERY much like
usenet too and it was still possible to 'meet' some
actual movers and shakers. Most of all I miss the BYTE
magazine forums - Tech Concentrate.

Heh ... for fun I used to post to Compuserve using
a dumb serial terminal with a 1200 baud USR modem
plugged into the back. 'ATTD ..." :-)

[Bobbie Sellers]

Internet cafes went down the drain in San Ftancisco because
they were subverted by Coffee shops with WiFi. The SFPL-Main has
a lot of computers, some connecting to the Internet and others to the
Card Catalogs. Closest thing to an Internet Cafe you will see
extant.

bliss

[25B.Z969]

On 8/14/22 7:06 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> vladimir...@gmail.com <vladimir...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Well, good news. I've just checked and it ships with SysV init by
>> default!
>
> Indeed it does, via the AntiX project that it's based on
> (personally I much prefer AntiX, but each to their own). One thing
> to note is that although Systemd-free, the developers decided to
> still use the Debian package repos and supplement them with their
> own "nosystemd" (or some label like that) packages that they host
> on their own servers/mirrors. This is in contrast to the Devuan
> project which maintains its own package repo for all packages so
> that a standard installation doesn't touch the Debian repos at all.

But Antix has all those ultra-depressing, suicidal-commie,
splash screens. I replace them with SUNNY stuff ! :-)

Antix IS very good as a real minimalist Linux. Just BARELY
enough GUI so you don't go totally nuts - but you can add,
or subtract, from that to please.

Devuan ... I've been working with that in a VM a bit. Also
looks very good, though it is fatter than Antix. Whether
to use the Deb repos or not ... it's not like those repos
are 'dirty' somehow. However, over time, all the bits in
there WILL drift more towards expecting/requiring systemd.

Ubuntu ... it's become too weird, too self-centered, too
intent on forcing Canoical 'services' onto the world.
You can't really even say it's "Debian-based" anymore,
too much has been changed, and often for no clear reason.
The uServers I'm using now WILL be replaced by vanilla Deb.
I can see why Ubuntu has slipped to #6 on the DistroWatch
list. Now MX, EndeavorOS and Mint top the list - MX has
been at the top for a very long time now for good reasons.

Systemd can have its uses, but it also obfuscates what's
going on and why. I do like how you can do super-fine
control on services, even watchdog them. Yes, you can
hand-write all that in an init.d system ... but, well,
then you have to hand-write all that.

> I tried going down both paths (installing Devuan via Star Linux,
> which is mainly just a more stripped-down distro than the official
> Devuan release). Devuan has been OK, except that there aren't any
> official package repo mirrors in Australia,

Um .. really doesn't matter if they're on Mars at this point ...

Or is the Aussie govt doing something wicked ???

> but I haven't attempted
> a OS version upgrade with it yet. With AntiX I have attempted an
> upgrade, and spent a few hours in dependency hell because the
> package managers (when apt-get failed, I moved to Aptitude) tended
> to select newer Systemd-based packages on the Debian servers
> instead of the AntiX ones when resolving dependencies. At the same
> time I couldn't just remove the Debian repos from
> /etc/apt/sources.list because most of the other dependencies were
> only on the Debian servers, so the only way to go was to take
> things one error message at a time and select all the
> Systemd-related package versions manually (geeze it's wormed its
> way into a lot of stuff!).

Antix IS a bit "marginal" and you've gotta do extra
work to get exactly the packages you want. Apt and
Aptitude CAN offer finer control than apt-get, but
there are LOTS of fiddly params and often fer-crap
documentation/examples to go by.

Speaking of ... I just HATE those "help" pages where
somebody goes into a big literary exposition about
how to use some command/utility and never posts even
one actual EXAMPLE line showing how all the quirks
are supposed to be writ. Apparently we're supposed
to decode the mystic texts. I don't have time for that.
BSD pages are even worse than Linux pages in that respect.

I spent three hours the other day discovering there's no
actual equiv to a "credentials=" fstab line in FreeBSD ...
you're supposed to put all yer creds in ONE file under
/etc. Yes, you can adjust permissions - but every bot
STILL knows EXACTLY where to look. All eggs in one
basket in a semi-public folder. I prefer to bury them
down under /root somewhere. If "they" can get that far
then they've got yer whole system anyway. I'd prefer
if you could "credentials=<pgmname>" and pipe-in the
results. Then you could write a utility to decrypt
obfuscated creds and bury THAT somewhere safe.

I'll argue the merits of 'encrypted' -vs- 'obfuscated'
data at some other time.

> I don't see how I'd have the same problem with Devuan because it's

> only using Devuan's own repos for everythding, so I've settled on

> Devuan-based distros as my Debian replacement moving forward.
> Though not having actually tried a version upgrage with Devuan
> myself yet, I guess it could potentially have its own problems, but
> I doubt it.
>
> No, I don't know of a Devuan-based equivalent to MX Linux. MX isn't
> really to my taste anyway.

I've got it on all my laps/sub-laps, a few bootable
sticks for debug/fix work and always keep it in a bootable
partition on desktops/servers. It has a few oddities, but
offers a lot in return. Probably why it's #1. A tad too
slow on a Pi though ... the RPF Deb derivative is still
best for those.

[25B.Z969]

Yep, WiFi/4-5g killed the 'internet cafe'. Now everyone sits
at McDonalds or something fiddling with their phones, never
interacting with other live humans. Improvement ??? Not so
sure. "Internet Cafe's" had a sort of "culture", a vibe, a
buzz. Today, nil. Zombies texting zombies.

[Computer Nerd Kev]

25B.Z969 <25B....@noda.net> wrote:
> On 8/14/22 7:06 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>
>> I tried going down both paths (installing Devuan via Star Linux,
>> which is mainly just a more stripped-down distro than the official
>> Devuan release). Devuan has been OK, except that there aren't any
>> official package repo mirrors in Australia,
>
> Um .. really doesn't matter if they're on Mars at this point ...

Maybe not for the download speeds, but the delay for the
request-response round trip is much higher when dealing with
servers on the other side of the world. When downloading hundreds
of packages, that delay occours for each package, and can take
longer than the download itself for small ones.

Anyway I'm patient so it's not a big issue, but I am disappointed
that none of the major mirror sites in Aus have picked Devuan up.
I'm using the Japanese mirror because it's geographically closest,
though I'm not sure whether that logic holds up to the
technicalities of international routing.

>> but I haven't attempted
>> a OS version upgrade with it yet. With AntiX I have attempted an
>> upgrade, and spent a few hours in dependency hell because the
>> package managers (when apt-get failed, I moved to Aptitude) tended
>> to select newer Systemd-based packages on the Debian servers
>> instead of the AntiX ones when resolving dependencies. At the same
>> time I couldn't just remove the Debian repos from
>> /etc/apt/sources.list because most of the other dependencies were
>> only on the Debian servers, so the only way to go was to take
>> things one error message at a time and select all the
>> Systemd-related package versions manually (geeze it's wormed its
>> way into a lot of stuff!).
>
> Antix IS a bit "marginal" and you've gotta do extra
> work to get exactly the packages you want. Apt and
> Aptitude CAN offer finer control than apt-get, but
> there are LOTS of fiddly params and often fer-crap
> documentation/examples to go by.

If there's a package manager that has a setting for preferencing
packages from a particular server, or with the "nosystemd" label,
no matter how deep it's burried in the docs, that would solve the
problem. But I tried looking for that myself and failed to come up
with anything.

[25B.Z969]

On 8/16/22 3:05 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022 00:49:19 -0400, 25B.Z969 wrote:
>>
>> On 8/15/22 11:34 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>
>>>     Internet cafes went down the drain in San Ftancisco because
>>> they were subverted by Coffee shops with WiFi.  The SFPL-Main has
>>> a lot of computers,  some connecting to the Internet and others to the
>>> Card Catalogs.  Closest thing to an Internet Cafe you will see
>>> extant.
>

> Not just SF, but over all of the developed world.

>
>> Yep, WiFi/4-5g killed the 'internet cafe'. Now everyone sits
>> at McDonalds or something fiddling with their phones, never
>> interacting with other live humans. Improvement ??? Not so
>> sure. "Internet Cafe's" had a sort of "culture", a vibe, a
>> buzz. Today, nil. Zombies texting zombies.
>

> Not in those I knew. Everybody typing on his own computer without
> interaction of each other.


But it was a collective zombie buzz ! :-)

The other people WERE there, it was a Tech Happening.

At least that's how I saw it ...

San Fanaticino ... can't say about there.

[25B.Z969]

On 8/16/22 6:39 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> 25B.Z969 <25B....@noda.net> wrote:
>> On 8/14/22 7:06 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>
>>> I tried going down both paths (installing Devuan via Star Linux,
>>> which is mainly just a more stripped-down distro than the official
>>> Devuan release). Devuan has been OK, except that there aren't any
>>> official package repo mirrors in Australia,
>>
>> Um .. really doesn't matter if they're on Mars at this point ...
>
> Maybe not for the download speeds, but the delay for the
> request-response round trip is much higher when dealing with
> servers on the other side of the world. When downloading hundreds
> of packages, that delay occours for each package, and can take
> longer than the download itself for small ones.

I understand that - had satellite internet back when
it was popular. Send packet, wait for packet to go
up 33,000 miles, go down 33,000 miles, then the
confirm took the reverse route. Not exactly "snappy",
but then web pages were SMALL at the time .

But these days ? I regularly use European repos from
the USA. Seems about as fast as something very local.
Why is Australia any different ? No fiber-op from
the continent ? Deliberate throttling ?

I never recall SEEING a "No Systemd" in any of the docs.
Fact is that systemd has so thoroughly permeated the
LinuScape that the package writers now just ASSUME you
will have it and want it. Their set-up scripts just
start writing stuff to /etc/systemd/system and will
get confused if systemctl and those folders aren't
there. Some may just INSTALL systemd to resolve their
little problems. It will be like that more and more.

As Devuan and a few others make their name by NOT
using systemd, I think it's up to them to provide
the systemd-less repositories. Even thus, there
comes a point where porting those systemd-loving
utilities/apps back to init.d will become too
much of a chore. That's the facts as I see them.

So perhaps being systemd-free is a temporary illusion ?
Better tools to fully visualize/catalog what systemd
is DOING might be the better way. Keep the Devil in
FRONT of you, so you can see what he's up to ...

A couple of the BSDs are trying to remain systemd
agnostic ... they have sort of a fake systemd that
doesn't really do much, but satisfies certain
dependencies. Linux is more flexible than the BSDs
but, well, a bit more chaotic too. Choices choices ...

[Computer Nerd Kev]

25B.Z969 <25B....@noda.net> wrote:
> On 8/16/22 6:39 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> 25B.Z969 <25B....@noda.net> wrote:
>>> On 8/14/22 7:06 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>
>>>> I tried going down both paths (installing Devuan via Star Linux,
>>>> which is mainly just a more stripped-down distro than the official
>>>> Devuan release). Devuan has been OK, except that there aren't any
>>>> official package repo mirrors in Australia,
>>>
>>> Um .. really doesn't matter if they're on Mars at this point ...
>>
>> Maybe not for the download speeds, but the delay for the
>> request-response round trip is much higher when dealing with
>> servers on the other side of the world. When downloading hundreds
>> of packages, that delay occours for each package, and can take
>> longer than the download itself for small ones.
>
> I understand that - had satellite internet back when
> it was popular. Send packet, wait for packet to go
> up 33,000 miles, go down 33,000 miles, then the
> confirm took the reverse route. Not exactly "snappy",
> but then web pages were SMALL at the time .

Yes I had that too. Newer satellite systems have somehow reduced
the delay, though it's still significantly more laggy than mobile
(which I use now instead).

> But these days ? I regularly use European repos from
> the USA. Seems about as fast as something very local.
> Why is Australia any different ? No fiber-op from
> the continent ? Deliberate throttling ?

I dunno, but I'd guess that Europe - USA is the best
intercontinental link around. If you're using servers that are slow
themselves then that also swamps the difference. Anyway it's
perceptible just by browsing the repo directories in Dillo at AU Vs
USA mirrors. Not worth worrying about with that, but the delay adds
up quick when you're requesting all the packages for a full OS
version upgrade.

If you use HTTPS then the encryption adds another variable that
might skew your results.

>>>> but I haven't attempted
>>>> a OS version upgrade with it yet. With AntiX I have attempted an
>>>> upgrade, and spent a few hours in dependency hell because the
>>>> package managers (when apt-get failed, I moved to Aptitude) tended
>>>> to select newer Systemd-based packages on the Debian servers
>>>> instead of the AntiX ones when resolving dependencies. At the same
>>>> time I couldn't just remove the Debian repos from
>>>> /etc/apt/sources.list because most of the other dependencies were
>>>> only on the Debian servers, so the only way to go was to take
>>>> things one error message at a time and select all the
>>>> Systemd-related package versions manually (geeze it's wormed its
>>>> way into a lot of stuff!).
>>>
>>> Antix IS a bit "marginal" and you've gotta do extra
>>> work to get exactly the packages you want. Apt and
>>> Aptitude CAN offer finer control than apt-get, but
>>> there are LOTS of fiddly params and often fer-crap
>>> documentation/examples to go by.
>>
>> If there's a package manager that has a setting for preferencing
>> packages from a particular server, or with the "nosystemd" label,
>> no matter how deep it's burried in the docs, that would solve the
>> problem. But I tried looking for that myself and failed to come up
>> with anything.
>
> I never recall SEEING a "No Systemd" in any of the docs.

The "nosystemd" label is an AntiX addition to Debian's "dev",
"main", and "nonfree". Here it is on one of AntiX's frustratingly
existant (given the Devuan situation) Australian mirror sites:
http://mirror.datamossa.io/mxlinux/antix/bullseye/pool/nosystemd/

So I was looking for a way to tell a package manager to prefer the
packages from "/nosystemd", but still use other packages where none
of the "nosystemd" ones fulfill the dependency. Seems like it
should be an option, but no dice.

> Fact is that systemd has so thoroughly permeated the
> LinuScape that the package writers now just ASSUME you
> will have it and want it. Their set-up scripts just
> start writing stuff to /etc/systemd/system and will
> get confused if systemctl and those folders aren't
> there. Some may just INSTALL systemd to resolve their
> little problems. It will be like that more and more.
>
> As Devuan and a few others make their name by NOT
> using systemd, I think it's up to them to provide
> the systemd-less repositories. Even thus, there
> comes a point where porting those systemd-loving
> utilities/apps back to init.d will become too
> much of a chore. That's the facts as I see them.

That fear is old now and I haven't seen it surface in practice with
anything that I want to run. Mind you software by Systemd-lovers is
likely to be dismissed by me for other reasons anyway.

> So perhaps being systemd-free is a temporary illusion ?
> Better tools to fully visualize/catalog what systemd
> is DOING might be the better way. Keep the Devil in
> FRONT of you, so you can see what he's up to ...

Well I like to be able to change what he's up to by editing a shell
script, so on that basis it's irreconcilable and I'll just have to
use FreeDOS instead - Hello AUTOEXEC.BAT! :)

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 17/08/2022 07:37, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

> I dunno, but I'd guess that Europe - USA is the best
> intercontinental link around. If you're using servers that are slow
> themselves then that also swamps the difference. Anyway it's
> perceptible just by browsing the repo directories in Dillo at AU Vs
> USA mirrors. Not worth worrying about with that, but the delay adds
> up quick when you're requesting all the packages for a full OS
> version upgrade.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/network-atlas-launches-map-of-global-internet-infrastructure-300742792.html

Australia is not very populated. Its a bit off the 'main street' as far
as internet traffic goes.

--
It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain

[Computer Nerd Kev]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 17/08/2022 07:37, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>
>> I dunno, but I'd guess that Europe - USA is the best
>> intercontinental link around. If you're using servers that are slow
>> themselves then that also swamps the difference. Anyway it's
>> perceptible just by browsing the repo directories in Dillo at AU Vs
>> USA mirrors. Not worth worrying about with that, but the delay adds
>> up quick when you're requesting all the packages for a full OS
>> version upgrade.
>
> https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/network-atlas-launches-map-of-global-internet-infrastructure-300742792.html

That's handy. It looks like picking a Japanese mirror when the next
option is one in the USA isn't entirely baseless.

[25B.Z969]

IMHO, being systemd-free will be impossible within five years.
It's too much of a chore, esp for a "free" OS. I suppose you
can rail against that newfangled, dangerous "electricity" stuff
and refuse to have it at your house, but .... :-)

So, we need to find better ways of quantifying and qualifying
what systemd is up to. Take the mystery out of it. We're not
talking Winders here where MS has a vested interest in hiding
what those registry settings do.

I edited an old BAT file just a few days ago BTW ... nothing
super-fancy, just massages blocks of file names into a more
standard, readable, sortable form another pgm likes. BAT files
still work in Win10/11 just like they always did (except
autoexec.bat). PowerShell scripting is more powerful - but if
you need much extra you may as well just write a Python
utility - it'll be clearer. I feel the same about bash
scripts ... if they need to get too tricky, the syntax too
weird, rewrite in Python instead. Nice you CAN do it in
bash/ksh/etc but, well, where the syntax starts to get
all cryptic you can TELL that's where they were patching
new bits into older code. "Now how do we make it do THIS
without rewriting the whole thing ?" :-)

I recently did a fairly secure backup-repository box. It
runs on a bash script and each little job is 'modular' so
it's easy to cut&paste and tweak a couple of params. No
config files needed, it's all right there. Bash (and ksh)
have a faux TCP device you can read/write to.

In two lines it sends a little command line to a service
I wrote, you get back a temporary mount point, the module
uses it and then sends a command to close it. The service
exists because one of the params is how LONG you want the
temporary mount to persist max. If your module crashes/hangs
and doesn't umount it itself then the service will do it for
you. This leaves far less of a path for any ransomware
(or other sources of error) to follow. There are other ways
of doing this, but I felt like writing a service (managed by,
horrors !, systemd). Several big drives, but unless you gain
a root shell you won't see them at all. Just another layer
to make things NotWorthIt for the bad guys. I started using
temp mounts many years ago and on a couple of occasions
it's been WORTH the extra effort.

[Bobbie Sellers]

I thnk you are overly pessimistic about the eventual prevalence of systemd.
Much of a chore? Some people would disagree. They don't hang
about here though so I just have to say that many new versions have not
added systemd. If people are too lazy to look around for these system
that do no used systemd then they might as well be using Windows or MacOS.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 18/08/2022 04:57, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>   I thnk you are overly pessimistic about the eventual prevalence of
> systemd.

I think it will prevail and now that Poettering has fucked off, it will
eventually become reasonably well documented and bug free.

Just like X windows, Postcript and a thousand and one brilliant ideas
ruined by academics impractical search for ubiquity and perfection.

>     Much of a chore?  Some people would disagree.  They don't hang
> about here though so I just have to say that many new versions have not
> added systemd.   If people are too lazy to look around for these system
> that do no used systemd then they might as well be using Windows or MacOS.

Not really. Systemd has now mostly retreated to being just another
stable bit of my installation that I don't want or need to understand.

In the end cost benefit analysis rules. The effort required to get rid
of systemd has become marginally greater than the effort required to
use it.

PS the mess that the 'socket' based TCP/IP stack has been and probably
always will be, hasn't precluded it from being bullied into working well
enough that no one notices the ugliness unless they write socket level code.

I suspect systemd will end up like that.

--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

[25B.Z969]

On 8/17/22 11:57 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 8/17/22 20:10, 25B.Z969 wrote:

>>
>>    IMHO, being systemd-free will be impossible within five years.
>>    It's too much of a chore, esp for a "free" OS. I suppose you
>>    can rail against that newfangled, dangerous "electricity" stuff
>>    and refuse to have it at your house, but ....  :-)
>>
>>    So, we need to find better ways of quantifying and qualifying
>>    what systemd is up to. Take the mystery out of it. We're not
>>    talking Winders here where MS has a vested interest in hiding
>>    what those registry settings do.
>
>
>     I thnk you are overly pessimistic about the eventual prevalence of
> systemd.
>     Much of a chore?  Some people would disagree.  They don't hang
> about here though so I just have to say that many new versions have not
> added systemd.   If people are too lazy to look around for these system
> that do no used systemd then they might as well be using Windows or MacOS.

You're looking at it from almost an 'ideological' perspective.
Most see it from a 'practical' perspective - and a "pain-v-gain"
equation is part of that. I'm not a "linux hobbyist", I make it
work for a living. Systemd makes some annoying things a lot
easier. I'm not going to write a word-processor every time I need
to write a letter - somebody else did it for me.

My main complaint about it is that the writers are *too
ambitious*,...trying to cram too many functions into the
thing. It becomes very difficult to debug something like
that and soon even the writers lose track of how it all
works, how tweaking 'X' affects 'Y'. This is where Winders
went bad (well, ONE of the reasons it went bad).

Systemd-less is, at present, more of a *reaction* than than
a clear statement of need. Prove a need, prove the rationale.

IF there are clear advantages to init.d then writers and distro
creators WILL provide systemd-less systems long-term. I do not
think that is going to happen however ....

Sorry, that's just how I see it.