which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

[Pastor Pentium]

Ubuntu 22.04 has lost me for good now, since they hardwired snap into
it. You can remove this cancer, but a number of applications have no deb
file!
I use linux because I won't fine-grained control, install things with
yum/apt/zypper.
Stop fixing shit that ain't broke!

[Marco Moock]

Debian comes without snapd by default. Linux Mint also. They both have
DEB packages for Firefox - Ubuntu 22.04 doesn't have.
I haven't checked, but I think that Slackware will also not use snap be
default.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Yes, so far apart from the systemd 'creeping featurism' weed, Mint
remains fairly - er - vanilla?

Leastways it hasn't annoyed me enough to go looking at other distros.


--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

[Marco Moock]

Am Donnerstag, 05. Mai 2022, um 12:11:10 Uhr schrieb The Natural
Philosopher:

> Leastways it hasn't annoyed me enough to go looking at other distros.

I have never tried mint. I switched my i686-only machines to Debian 2
years ago and I still use Ubuntu on my main machines. When I need to
reinstall the OS there I will switch them to Debian.

[Bit Twister]

Subject: Re: which distros will not spread their cheeks to the snap/flatpak mania???

I use Mageia which is a Redhat derivative using urpm as the default package
manager to help manage rpm database, install,remove packages and resists
the occasional snap/flatpak requests by a few users.

Other package managers installed: dpkg, dnf, yum

Like you, I require fine control and the scripting ability for package
management. I have numerous scripts to automate package install and
system modifications.

[Poprocks]

On 2022-05-05, Marco Moock wrote:
> I haven't checked, but I think that Slackware will also not use snap be
> default.

Slackware definitely does not include SNAP or Flatpak.

You can install Flatpak from Slackbuilds.org (3rd party source-based
repo) though.

[Poprocks]

On 2022-05-05, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Thu, 5 May 2022 17:41:51 +0800, Pastor Pentium wrote:
>>

>> Ubuntu 22.04 has lost me for good now, since they hardwired snap into
>> it.
>

> Never heard of snap/flatpak. But I use Debian (and Mint, which Debian :-D).

Have you also been living under a rock for the last 5 years? ;-)

[Dan Espen]

Not a big deal in my book.
As you indicate, no problem with removal.
It's not enabled by default in Fedora.
I once installed something using a snap, it seemed slow, so I removed
the snap version and found a package.

Snaps probably serve a useful purpose, I just haven't found it yet.

--
Dan Espen

[Marco Moock]

Am Donnerstag, 05. Mai 2022, um 13:47:51 Uhr schrieb Dan Espen:

> Snaps probably serve a useful purpose, I just haven't found it yet.

I makes providing software for different Linux distributions much
easier for developers because the only need one snap package that runs
on all distributions.

[Lew Pitcher]

Which was /exactly/ the reasoning back in the early 2000's when the
Linux Standards Base declared that the Redhat Package Manager format
("RPM") was to be the standard package format. It, too, made "providing

software for different Linux distributions much easier for developers"

because they would only need one RPM package that runs on all
distributions.

Obligatory XKCD: https://xkcd.com/927/

--
Lew Pitcher
"In Skills, We Trust"

[Poprocks]

Yes, except that this standard was adopted with *zero* tools to help
packagers actually produce RPM packages which -- even if converted to a
native package of a distro, or just exploded into /opt -- would run on
multiple distributions.

If there were a strong toolset that could have helped to include shared
libraries over and above the LSB base, desktop, etc. specs, or to
statically link binaries against such libraries, maybe it would have
caught on, but the practical reality was that it ended up being a
standard that wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

[Dan Espen]

Yes, I know.
I haven't found a case where I needed it is what I meant.

--
Dan Espen

[25.BX945]

On 5/5/22 7:11 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 05/05/2022 11:23, Marco Moock wrote:
>> Am Donnerstag, 05. Mai 2022, um 17:41:51 Uhr schrieb Pastor Pentium:
>>
>>> Ubuntu 22.04 has lost me for good now, since they hardwired snap into
>>> it. You can remove this cancer, but a number of applications have no
>>> deb file!
>>> I use linux because I won't fine-grained control, install things with
>>> yum/apt/zypper.
>>> Stop fixing shit that ain't broke!
>>
>> Debian comes without snapd by default. Linux Mint also. They both have
>> DEB packages for Firefox - Ubuntu 22.04 doesn't have.
>> I haven't checked, but I think that Slackware will also not use snap be
>> default.
>>
> Yes, so far apart from the systemd 'creeping featurism' weed, Mint
> remains fairly - er - vanilla?
>
> Leastways it hasn't annoyed me enough to go looking at other distros.

Snap and FlatPak are becoming ubiquitous alas.

I REMOVE them from every system I install ... they're
too much in the Micro$oft vein for comfort.

If I can't get a real, installable, DEB or RPM then I
DON'T USE IT. Some can be compiled from source, but
there's the library version maze to navigate which
often makes it more work than its worth.

Some olde-tyme apps can now only be obtained as
Dockers ... I don't like those either, and they are
not nearly as secure as claimed. They are also
"opaque" ... MysteryWare.

These days I stick to vanilla Debian as much as
possible. Even MX, a very good middleweight disto
for the most part, has caved-in to FlatPak. I remove
it and SCREW the other stuff that gets uninstalled
at the same time.

There are now too many Linux developers who DON'T
GET IT. We do not, MUST not, allow Linux to become
like Winders.

[Marco Moock]

Am Donnerstag, 05. Mai 2022, um 23:58:13 Uhr schrieb 25.BX945:

> There are now too many Linux developers who DON'T
> GET IT. We do not, MUST not, allow Linux to become
> like Winders.

That is what most Linux distributions do.
Most of the provide snap, but don't install it by default.

[Poprocks]

Not so. Primarily only Ubuntu and Ubuntu-based distros are using Snap,
while everyone else that wants to adopt such a solution is using
Flatpak. Flatpak may not be perfect but it's the better solution in my
opinion. For one, it doesn't have a dependency on systemd, and has a
really sane philosophy behind how it works, similar to git.

[David W. Hodgins]

On Fri, 06 May 2022 11:00:06 -0400, Poprocks <ple...@replytogroup.com> wrote:
> Not so. Primarily only Ubuntu and Ubuntu-based distros are using Snap,
> while everyone else that wants to adopt such a solution is using
> Flatpak. Flatpak may not be perfect but it's the better solution in my
> opinion. For one, it doesn't have a dependency on systemd, and has a
> really sane philosophy behind how it works, similar to git.

The problem is that they include old versions of packages that may not have
security patches applied, and they mean that when a security bug is found there
are many more places that it needs to be fixed.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

[Poprocks]

True, but they also run in a sandbox to mitigate somewhat against that.
I agree that it is not a perfect system, though.

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Alternatively it could also make less popular Linux distros that
most developers don't know/care about easier to adopt because you
don't need an independent set of packages for them.

Though in practice I've looked at AppImage in the past for that
purpose and the packages people make are mostly for bloated,
flashy, GUI software that I don't use. I suspect they're mainly
done for users wanting to run the latest version of a program
before it's available as eg. a package for Debian Stable.

They're a horribly inefficient system anyway. AppImages are bad
enough with their independent copies of most libraries used, but
then these newer systems add containerisation on top of that to
make performance worse again.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

[25.BX945]

NEXT month they WILL.

Then it will be "required".

Unless there's huge push-back.

[25.BX945]

STILL don't like it.

Standard DEBs/RPMs, with the source code available to
compile from source, is still the best, most trustworthy,
way to go.

I really like MX ... but I *removed* all the FlatPak shit.

Apt-Get Install .... THE trustworthy standard.

[25.BX945]

apt-get install .... STICK with it.

If your distro won't, find another distro.

I'm checking-out Devuian right now ....

[25.BX945]

On 5/6/22 5:43 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Marco Moock <mo...@posteo.de> wrote:
>> Am Donnerstag, 05. Mai 2022, um 13:47:51 Uhr schrieb Dan Espen:
>>
>>> Snaps probably serve a useful purpose, I just haven't found it yet.
>> I makes providing software for different Linux distributions much
>> easier for developers because the only need one snap package that runs
>> on all distributions.
>
> Alternatively it could also make less popular Linux distros that
> most developers don't know/care about easier to adopt because you
> don't need an independent set of packages for them.
>
> Though in practice I've looked at AppImage in the past for that
> purpose and the packages people make are mostly for bloated,
> flashy, GUI software that I don't use.

I have nothing against GUI stuff ... THAT isn't
the issue. It's questionably-documented Snap/Flat
packages. We don't know as much about what they
are, what they do, what they affect, what goes
where, as we do with old-fashioned packages.

I run a lot of boxes with U-Server - but I always
add LXDE. Saves a ton of time, removes a lot of
frustrations. "sudo pcmanfm" is GREAT.

> I suspect they're mainly
> done for users wanting to run the latest version of a program
> before it's available as eg. a package for Debian Stable.
>
> They're a horribly inefficient system anyway. AppImages are bad
> enough with their independent copies of most libraries used, but
> then these newer systems add containerisation on top of that to
> make performance worse again.

Containers/Docker ... don't like or trust.

Stick with, demand, the olde-tyme approaches IMHO.

Unlike Winders, there are a tons of Linux/BSD distros.
Pick ones that do NOT go with the "Latest & Greatest"
means of getting/running packages. Do they have Snap ?
REMOVE it. Do they have FlatPak ? REMOVE it. If you
can't get Package-X without them then SCREW it - pick
another distro.

[25.BX945]

On 5/5/22 8:54 PM, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:

> My oldest Debian installation (this article is written on it) is twelve
> years old. The new was installed last December. But hadn't noticed snap or
> flatpak.

Debian is pretty vanilla, conservative, careful. However
the more popular distros - the Ubuntu semi-clones esp -
always try to be "cutting edge" and are prone to putting
weird stuff in there. Ubuntu itself ... every time I do
an installation these days I spend half an hour removing
"Ubuntuisms", all the cloud stuff especially. Sometimes
I kill Netplan and force it back to /etc/network like
in the old days. I may just give up on Ubuntu Server for
professional stuff, go back to Debian. It's easier to
add a little extra stuff to Debian than it is to
remove all the crap from Ubuntu.

Alas even Debian finally went systemd .... but there are
still some derivatives which stick with init.d and are
thus a lot more like your 12 year old Deb.

My personal desktop had been down for nearly a year, I'd
been working off of laptops. Finally revived it last week,
and installed Debian - not Ubuntu, not Mint - and basic
LXDE.

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 07-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> a écrit :
>
> apt-get install .... STICK with it.
>
> If your distro won't, find another distro.

You are too limited to give advices. My distro doesn't use it and
some other good distros don't have it too.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 07-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> a écrit :
>

> Containers/Docker ... don't like or trust.

They can be great.

> Stick with, demand, the olde-tyme approaches IMHO.

Some of the new stuff is great. But it needs to be learned, and
mastered, not used blindly.

> Unlike Winders, there are a tons of Linux/BSD distros.
> Pick ones that do NOT go with the "Latest & Greatest"
> means of getting/running packages. Do they have Snap ?
> REMOVE it. Do they have FlatPak ? REMOVE it. If you
> can't get Package-X without them then SCREW it - pick
> another distro.

It's a more open brain advice than saying apt-get is the only
package-manager to use.

[Marco Moock]

I don't think that Debian or Slackware will use snapd by default and
force people to use it.

[25.BX945]

Time-tested, reliable, gets it done just fine,
minimal exposure, no tricks.

I'll stick with apt-get.

[Anna]

Gentoo, Slackware, Alpine Linux.

Even if they fall, BSDs will be around.

[25.BX945]

On 5/8/22 7:22 AM, Bud Frede wrote:

> "25.BX945" <25B...@nada.net> writes:
>
>>
>> Stick with, demand, the olde-tyme approaches IMHO.
>>
>

> So you're running a PDP-11 with "olde-tyme" Unix? Or at least
> "olde-tyme" Unix on SIMH?


Actually ... I've got a sim PDP-11 running
Unix ...... there are instructions on the web
if you wanna go for it :-)


https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/adventures-raspberry-pi3-1-running-unix-v7-emulated-pdp-11-chris-tham



> No?
>
> How "olde-tyme" are you? Where do you draw the line in the sand? Paper
> and pencil? Abacus?

Have slide-rule, and I know how to use it .....

> Does your house have electricity and running water? Do you use candles
> for lighting?

Oh no ! EVIL electricity ! How dareth man tamper
thus with the forces reserved to Zeus ! :-)

I draw the line where "transparency" starts to
disappear, These recent approaches are more like
Winders .msi and similar self-executing installer
formats where you're not sure what is really being
installed, where or how. "Open Source" should be
paired with "Open Installation" methods.

So get off the modern-idiot-friendly-quickie-method-
is-always-the-best bull ... Putin's hackers and our
own spooks think the exact same thing. Brush up on
compiling from source ... then you can see EVERYTHING.

Unix/Linux are not meant to be "Toy Winders" - they
run it ALL. That cheap router you bought from WalMart
runs on Linux, yer guarenTEED-safe cloud-storage runs
on Linux, your banks servers run on Linux, yer hospitals
mega-med-DB runs on Linux - it's everywhere, just under
the surface, and it is unsafe to go with plug-n-play
"solutions" just because even Granny can do it.

(Oh, I always pre-encrypt anything that goes to cloud
storage - the owners, not the system, are the weak link
there no matter how much they promise not to pirate and
sell yer stuff)

[25.BX945]

On 5/8/22 4:51 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> Le 07-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> a écrit :
>>
>> Containers/Docker ... don't like or trust.
>
> They can be great.

Getting yer weekly vodka ration from Vlad ? :-)

"Containers" are not as secure as some pretend, and
like snaps/flatpaks/.msi fixes it's far more difficult
to be sure what you're getting.

>> Stick with, demand, the olde-tyme approaches IMHO.
>
> Some of the new stuff is great. But it needs to be learned, and
> mastered, not used blindly.

Almost everybody uses it blindly. Unfortunately that may
include your doctors, yer cops, yer investment house, yer
accountants, yer bank, yer pharmacist, yer .........

Let's say that if it needs root privs to run, you are best
off compiling from source - and DO cast an eye on that
source before you push the button. That's the safe way.

>> Unlike Winders, there are a tons of Linux/BSD distros.
>> Pick ones that do NOT go with the "Latest & Greatest"
>> means of getting/running packages. Do they have Snap ?
>> REMOVE it. Do they have FlatPak ? REMOVE it. If you
>> can't get Package-X without them then SCREW it - pick
>> another distro.
>
> It's a more open brain advice than saying apt-get is the only
> package-manager to use.
>

There are times I compile instead ... however you CAN go
into an apt package and LOOK at it, even the code. They
are just one step above compile-it-yerself. Snaps/Flats/
this-weeks-wonderfix .... not so much. Closer to what
made Winders so bad.

I'm not trying to trash anybody here - I'm saying that
ESPECIALLY NOW it is best to err on the side of caution.

[25.BX945]

On 5/31/22 1:29 AM, Anna wrote:
> Gentoo, Slackware, Alpine Linux.
>
> Even if they fall, BSDs will be around.

Maybe ... but MS pays their lawyers a LOT of money to
discover why they are sole owners of pretty much every
scrap of computer code ever written. They'll lay claim
to Ada Lovelace's code pretty soon :-)

Let's see ... they buy a proprietary Unix, then claim
all those "unauthorized copies/knock-offs" cease and
desist immediately and pay them 50 years worth of
back-royalties ............... and grease a few judges
and pols ...........

Do the Free/Open/Net/etc BSD teams have enough money
and lawyers to thwart such an offensive ? Doesn't
MATTER if the legal reasoning is completely sound ...
you'd need lots of lawyers at every stage of a long
drawn-out process. Miss a beat and MS wins by default.

Only hope ... find someone who still has some rights
to the old Digital Research CP/M that some guy ripped
off, lightly tweaked, and sold to some punk named
Bill Gates. Some of that code is STILL in Win-11
fer sure .... 50 YEARS WORTH OF BACK-ROYALTIES AND
ALL ILL-GOTTEN PROFITS ALONG THE WAY PLEASE !!!! :-)

Of course Gate's lawyers will claim that CP/M was full
of code that Gates wrote back in the days where the
hot young programmers had contests to see who could
write basic functions - calculating dates and the like -
in the least number of bytes/cycles .......

MS has become VERY aggressive about squeezing every
last penny out of its products lately, esp in the
last year or so. If you wanna use Office now they're
basically forcing everybody to buy the expensive
subscriptions - and they now DETECT of small biz has
been abusing it's home-n-family plan. It CAN afford
all the lawyers. Next target fer sure, Libre/Open-Office.
If it's even remotely compatible with MS products then
they're STEALING from Bill dontchaknow.

Another back-door, MS is actually, kinda sneakily,
working its way into the Linux/BSD universe by
offering various little products, which ARE pretty
good. Loads of people use Visual to develop, for
example. MS libraries will soon start to be borrowed
by many Linux programmers ... and now MS *owns* yer
asses. All your good software STOPS unless you pay MS
for using those libraries. If the libraries are used
extensively enough, MS effectively OWNS Linux/BSD -
you'd have to step back a decade or more.

This is the the Lawyer-Poisoned version of the USA
(and EU to a fair degree as well).

. . .

MIGHT be wise to start on some OS that's definitely not
MS or Linux/Unix - something that can do the job really
well but is relatively "pure", is beyond the reach of
MS lawyers, because it's "different ENOUGH". Helps if
it came out of academia instead of a for-profit.

There ARE a few possible starting points ... does MS
own any bit of the old Be-OS ? That COULD be re-done
into a fully modern 64/128-bit modern GUI OS. Who
owns AMIGIA-OS now ? I'd suggest Plan-9, but Bell
Labs (AT&T) created that and can afford the lawyers
to do what MS does if they saw a reason. Same senerio
with VMS. OS-9 was a good system that kinda reminds
of Unix (though 'better' some CoCo programmers claim)
but MicroWare still owns (and sells) that. PICK-OS ?
That was certainly "different" and Dick Pick (yes)
is long dead.

I wrote a bunch of stuff for a PICK-based DB called
"Revelation" in the late 80s - and have copied and
use a lot of their multi-value stuff in many of
my utilities even today - translated into BASIC,
FORTRAN, Pascal, 'C', Python, etc. READING PICK-like
data is super easy, WRITING is is super-easy. EDITING
it in any generic fashion is considerably trickier as
context/intent come into play. That's kinda why they
had "data dictionaries" and such. You can still buy
Revelation (non-supported though) or blow a lot more
on the heavy-duty successor MV-DB "OpenInsight". I do
like Multi-Value - a smarter way to organize most
real-world data IMHO. "Flat" DBs suck.

There were a lot of "experimental" OS's writ in the
80s/90s but most were skeletal, lacking much, or just
SO weird that nobody would ever wanna use them in
real life. Hmm .. "file-less" with no distinctions
between data/programs/storage/OS, a vaguely "AI"/brain
sort of viewpoint ... Lisp/Prolog as a full OS concept
down to the brass tacks ? There were "Lisp Machines"
way back, some with Lisp AS the OS, with the hardware
optimized to get max efficiency.

(I *hate* Lisp & Prolog ... if you see the word
"lambda" a lot and tons of braces/curlyQs ...
no, no, no .... :-O )

[Dan Espen]

Pastor Pentium <ko...@leica.com> writes:

> Ubuntu 22.04 has lost me for good now, since they hardwired snap into

> it. You can remove this cancer, but a number of applications have no
> deb file!
> I use linux because I won't fine-grained control, install things with
> yum/apt/zypper.
> Stop fixing shit that ain't broke!

Another stupid most by some malcontent trying to stir people up.
Stop complaining about things that have zero effect on you.
You sound like an idiot.

Fedora supports snaps. I don't use it, but I can if I want to.
I fail to see a problem.

--
Dan Espen

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 31-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> a écrit :
> On 5/8/22 4:51 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 07-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Containers/Docker ... don't like or trust.
>>
>> They can be great.
>
> Getting yer weekly vodka ration from Vlad ? :-)

Your insults are there only to hide your lack of arguments. If you
want to keep this way, it will be without me.

> "Containers" are not as secure as some pretend, and
> like snaps/flatpaks/.msi fixes it's far more difficult
> to be sure what you're getting.

If you take anything from unknown sources, you'll be unable to be
sure of what you get. As you can create your containers from scratch
or from minimal distros, it's way easier to know what you have in
your containers than in your VMs with a full distro.

[25.BX945]

Yep ... Force Vlad ... want everyone to load mystery
software without thinking just like the Winders idiots.

Clue folks - do NOT take anything from "unknown sources" and
if you have the slightest skills LOOK at the code you're
getting even from "known sources" before you push any buttons.
This is the age of CyberWar - act accordingly.

[Pancho]

On 31/05/2022 16:28, 25.BX945 wrote:
> On 5/8/22 4:51 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 07-05-2022, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> a écrit :
>>>
>>>     Containers/Docker ... don't like or trust.
>>
>> They can be great.
>
>   Getting yer weekly vodka ration from Vlad ?  :-)
>
>   "Containers" are not as secure as some pretend, and
>   like snaps/flatpaks/.msi fixes it's far more difficult
>   to be sure what you're getting.
>
>
>>>     Stick with, demand, the olde-tyme approaches IMHO.
>>
>> Some of the new stuff is great. But it needs to be learned, and
>> mastered, not used blindly.
>
>   Almost everybody uses it blindly. Unfortunately that may
>   include your doctors, yer cops, yer investment house, yer
>   accountants, yer bank, yer pharmacist, yer .........
>

Decades ago, whilst working in an investment house it became clear that
our in-house code was so complex that we didn't understand it, even with
full source, and that it took a huge amount of investigation to
understand any, small, specific behaviour. The conclusion being that
stealing the code would be a fool's errand, as the time taken to
understand it, in order to use it correctly, would be so huge. It only
worked at all, because people had developed techniques, frameworks, to
use it, often wrongly.

So the idea that the vast majority of people don't already use software
blindly is a little laughable.

The idea that we can look at source and understand the whole program, is
a fantasy, we don't have the time. It's like looking for a needle in a
haystack.

FWIW, I've not used Snaps, but I do use Docker container's in much the
same way. It is common for the Dockerfile to be publicly available, in
which case it is possible to see the build steps. Is that different for
Snaps?

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 04-06-2022, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> a écrit :
>
> Yep ... Force Vlad ... want everyone to load mystery
> software without thinking just like the Winders idiots.

OK, you are using insults when your brain can't compete anymore.
It's easy. It's useless. You know only apt and you can't understand
anything else, so you believed no one can understand anything beside
apt. But it's not the case.

EOT.

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 04-06-2022, Pancho <Pancho...@proton.me> a écrit :
>
> The idea that we can look at source and understand the whole program, is
> a fantasy, we don't have the time.

For one program, it's doable, for everything installed on one's
computer it's not, I agree. Even Linus doesn't know everything in
the linux kernel anymore. But, at least, once you can chose which
programs you chose to trust and install.

If you chose a distro, you can trust your distro managers for
whatever they provide. The tricky part is for what's not provided by
your distro. As you need a strong reason to, you can chose a way to
be sur only the program you wanted is installed. I mean, not a
modified program or another program freely given with it.

> It's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

That's a very bad analogy. This sentence is meant for brainless
people. I still don't understand how this sentence can still be
spread.

It means that one will look at every stick in the haystack one by
one until the needle is found, which will take time. But why on
earth anyone would chose the worst way to look for a needle in a
haystack? One could use a magnet or a metal detector for exemple. If
you don't care about the stuff, one could also use fire. I'm sure,
there would be other ways in searching a little bit. But only a
brainless guy would force himself to use the worst way to accomplish
a task.

> FWIW, I've not used Snaps, but I do use Docker container's in much
> the same way. It is common for the Dockerfile to be publicly
> available, in which case it is possible to see the build steps. Is
> that different for Snaps?

I don't know snap, but for docker container's, you can create your
own or you can verify how they are created. In any case, if the snap
package, container and the source code are located on the same place
(ie: the gitlab/github repository of the developper), the trust you
can have in them is the same. But if the developer doesn't master
containers, the container can be poorly designed.

[Pancho]

On 04/06/2022 10:27, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 04-06-2022, Pancho <Pancho...@proton.me> a écrit :
>>
>> The idea that we can look at source and understand the whole program, is
>> a fantasy, we don't have the time.
>
> For one program, it's doable, for everything installed on one's
> computer it's not, I agree. Even Linus doesn't know everything in
> the linux kernel anymore. But, at least, once you can chose which
> programs you chose to trust and install.
>

It depends, how complex the program is, this includes libraries. Any
multi-man project seems to get complicated very quickly.

> If you chose a distro, you can trust your distro managers for
> whatever they provide. The tricky part is for what's not provided by
> your distro. As you need a strong reason to, you can chose a way to
> be sur only the program you wanted is installed. I mean, not a
> modified program or another program freely given with it.
> >> It's like looking for a needle in a haystack.
>
> That's a very bad analogy. This sentence is meant for brainless
> people. I still don't understand how this sentence can still be
> spread.
>
> It means that one will look at every stick in the haystack one by
> one until the needle is found, which will take time. But why on
> earth anyone would chose the worst way to look for a needle in a
> haystack? One could use a magnet or a metal detector for exemple. If
> you don't care about the stuff, one could also use fire. I'm sure,
> there would be other ways in searching a little bit. But only a
> brainless guy would force himself to use the worst way to accomplish
> a task.
>

I think analogies are not meant to be stretched, particularly
long-established ones. i.e. They long ago took a life of their own,
rather than a strict factual interpretation. Maybe they didn't have
strong magnets back in the day.

Similarly, we don't really buy a pig in poke or a cat in a sack, but the
analogy is Europe wide. In England, most people wouldn't even know what
a poke was.

>> FWIW, I've not used Snaps, but I do use Docker container's in much
>> the same way. It is common for the Dockerfile to be publicly
>> available, in which case it is possible to see the build steps. Is
>> that different for Snaps?
>
> I don't know snap, but for docker container's, you can create your
> own or you can verify how they are created. In any case, if the snap
> package, container and the source code are located on the same place
> (ie: the gitlab/github repository of the developper), the trust you
> can have in them is the same. But if the developer doesn't master
> containers, the container can be poorly designed.
>

I meant using Docker images downloaded from Dockerhub, sometimes they
have a link to a public Dockerfile, sometimes they don't.

It's not immediately obvious to me where the Snapstore (or alternative)
offers a link to something like the Snap version of a Dockerfile. i.e.
the image build definition.

[25.BX945]

On 6/4/22 4:59 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 04-06-2022, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> a écrit :
>>
>> Yep ... Force Vlad ... want everyone to load mystery
>> software without thinking just like the Winders idiots.
>
> OK, you are using insults when your brain can't compete anymore.
> It's easy. It's useless. You know only apt and you can't understand
> anything else, so you believed no one can understand anything beside
> apt. But it's not the case.

I'm saying that if we keep drifting in the direction
of Winders "So Easy Even Granny Can Do It" it won't
be long before we effectively HAVE Winders - and all
its problems.

That's not an insult, it's a sure thing. There's
nothing inherently "magic" about Linux/Unix to
protect us from evil - it's mostly that evil
has been harder to do than with Winders. Take away
more and more of those checks in the name of
"convenience" and we'll have TWO major trashy OS's
unfit for any purpose.

I don't think Linus is up to writing a whole new OS
from scratch, I don't see a crowdsource big enough,
I'm certainly not up to writing a whole OS. So,
help protect what we've got.

[Jim Jackson]

On 2022-06-04, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>
> I don't think Linus is up to writing a whole new OS
> from scratch, I don't see a crowdsource big enough,
> I'm certainly not up to writing a whole OS. So,
> help protect what we've got.

Linus didn't write a whole OS - Linux is just the kernel. He used
utilities written by others, notably the GNU utils and many others that
were suitably Open Sourced licensed.


In fact this is the whole strength of the ecosystem, and why there are
so many distributions around. And what most people don't seem to
realise, you don't need to use a distro as presented. I like the debian
packaging system - so tend to stick to "debian based" distro's. But My
desktop doesn't look anything like anyone elses! And for servers I start
with the lightest distro version, customise the init system etc,
and build up just what I need.

[25.BX945]

On 6/4/22 11:43 AM, Pancho wrote:
> On 04/06/2022 10:27, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 04-06-2022, Pancho <Pancho...@proton.me> a écrit :
>>>
>>> The idea that we can look at source and understand the whole program, is
>>> a fantasy, we don't have the time.
>>
>> For one program, it's doable, for everything installed on one's
>> computer it's not, I agree. Even Linus doesn't know everything in
>> the linux kernel anymore. But, at least, once you can chose which
>> programs you chose to trust and install.

It is said there was still ONE old guy at MicroSoft who could
hold the whole system in his head - knew that tweaking 'x'
would do this and that to 'y' and 'z'. After Win2k he retired.
It kinda shows ....

No doubt LT is in the same boat now. His tiny "proof of concept"
system is now pretty big and and has been re-tweaked over and
over and over by helpers. There was a mag I used to get, and
there was a column by 'Zack', a kernal developer. Apparently
his circle had a lot of, um, 'debates' with LT about how to
do things. Big Improvement 'A' would break 999 other longstanding
bits of software and/or the paradigms behind them - so Linus
would demand either a way to make 'A' civilized or tell 'em
to just trash it. "But It Would Make It Better For Gamers"
was NOT a good argument. LT wrote a work-horse, not a
birthday-party pony with a pink saddle, and he understands that.

> It depends, how complex the program is, this includes libraries. Any
> multi-man project seems to get complicated very quickly.

VERY complicated. Hey, they've got "teamware" development
systems for that. Now more people can fail understand what
they've created than ever before :-)

In any case, 'complexity' is almost always The Enemy because
it means nobody can 100% understand the software, that more
code accelerates entropy as people try to improve the product
and because it can conceal a lot of fatal flaws and even
deliberate malice. MS is forever dealing with one particular,
and dangerous, flaw - buffer overflows. Even after all these
years they can't find everywhere in their OS where this is
a possible issue - much less in every add-on program. Their
people get PAID for this, rather a lot in some cases, and
it's beyond their ability. They're trying 'AI' proof-readers
but that still hasn't done it - and nobody totally understands
the 'AI' software now either.

(I can't blame MS for the little, vulnerable, MINIX machines
in the Intel chips though - come ON Intel ...)

Not sure what to do ... rewrite CP/M in 64/128-bit and stick
to terminal-based software ? Nothing more complicated than
Lotus-123 or WordStar ? They DID serve, of course ... but
not very pretty, not a ton of features. A "simple" underlying
OS may be the more important security feature though if
the goal is a "tough"/"reliable" foundation for govt/defense/
finance.

"Opacity" ... not good .....

[25.BX945]

On 6/4/22 5:10 PM, Jim Jackson wrote:
> On 2022-06-04, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>>
>> I don't think Linus is up to writing a whole new OS
>> from scratch, I don't see a crowdsource big enough,
>> I'm certainly not up to writing a whole OS. So,
>> help protect what we've got.
>
> Linus didn't write a whole OS - Linux is just the kernel. He used
> utilities written by others, notably the GNU utils and many others that
> were suitably Open Sourced licensed.

We could argue that with no kernel you have no OS :-)

> In fact this is the whole strength of the ecosystem, and why there are
> so many distributions around. And what most people don't seem to
> realise, you don't need to use a distro as presented. I like the debian
> packaging system - so tend to stick to "debian based" distro's. But My
> desktop doesn't look anything like anyone elses! And for servers I start
> with the lightest distro version, customise the init system etc,
> and build up just what I need.

Similar to what I usually do. Start ultra-light and add
just what's needed. Less "junk" means fewer issues down
the road. Sounds like you may go even further than I
however ...

Which brings me to Ubuntu "Server" ... seems I always
spend hours DE-buntuing the installs, making them a
lot more like Deb, without the Canonical "improvements".
Think I'll just stick with a pure vanilla light Deb from
now on and save myself all the trouble. I've got a mail
server to migrate in a few weeks, that's how I'll go.

Now for a general-purpose user box you can go a lot "fatter".
I still like Deb-LXDE but MX is pretty good too.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 04/06/2022 21:40, 25.BX945 wrote:
> I'm saying that if we keep drifting in the direction
>   of Winders "So Easy Even Granny Can Do It" it won't
>   be long before we effectively HAVE Winders - and all
>   its problems.
>

Well there are two responses that spring to mind.

1/. Winders is there to make money, that biases it in favour of
chromeware = shiny shit that is actually pointless.
2/. Winders is not open source, so mistakes cant be fixed easily.

>   That's not an insult, it's a sure thing. There's
>   nothing inherently "magic" about Linux/Unix to
>   protect us from evil - it's mostly that evil
>   has been harder to do than with Winders. Take away
>   more and more of those checks in the name of
>   "convenience" and we'll have TWO major trashy OS's
>   unfit for any purpose.
>

All OSes become trashy after a few thousand indifferent coders have
vented their egos on them

>   I don't think Linus is up to writing a whole new OS
>   from scratch, I don't see a crowdsource big enough,
>   I'm certainly not up to writing a whole OS. So,
>   help protect what we've got.

--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first century’s developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2022-06-04, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:

> It is said there was still ONE old guy at MicroSoft who could
> hold the whole system in his head - knew that tweaking 'x'
> would do this and that to 'y' and 'z'. After Win2k he retired.
> It kinda shows ....

I've always said that Windows' usability (such as it is) peaked
somewhere between 2k and XP, and has been going downhill ever since.
You have one possible explanation, although I've always felt that
people's obsession with shiny things is what drives the decline.
(When I have to use Windows, it's a copy of XP under VirtualBox.)

> No doubt LT is in the same boat now. His tiny "proof of concept"
> system is now pretty big and and has been re-tweaked over and
> over and over by helpers. There was a mag I used to get, and
> there was a column by 'Zack', a kernal developer. Apparently
> his circle had a lot of, um, 'debates' with LT about how to
> do things. Big Improvement 'A' would break 999 other longstanding
> bits of software and/or the paradigms behind them - so Linus
> would demand either a way to make 'A' civilized or tell 'em
> to just trash it. "But It Would Make It Better For Gamers"
> was NOT a good argument. LT wrote a work-horse, not a
> birthday-party pony with a pink saddle, and he understands that.

Still, Lord Bill has made a _lot_ of money selling birthday-party
ponies with pink saddles. In a society where money is the only
morality, that makes Microsoft the very model of success.

>> It depends, how complex the program is, this includes libraries. Any
>> multi-man project seems to get complicated very quickly.
>
> VERY complicated. Hey, they've got "teamware" development
> systems for that. Now more people can fail understand what
> they've created than ever before :-)
>
> In any case, 'complexity' is almost always The Enemy because
> it means nobody can 100% understand the software, that more
> code accelerates entropy as people try to improve the product
> and because it can conceal a lot of fatal flaws and even
> deliberate malice.

Complexity is a weapon. This has been well understood by politicians
and lawyers since long before Microsoft existed.

The KISS principle is a countermeasure (which is why it's so reviled).

> "Opacity" ... not good .....

For whom?

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgi...@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

[25.BX945]

On 6/5/22 3:40 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2022-06-04, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>
>> It is said there was still ONE old guy at MicroSoft who could
>> hold the whole system in his head - knew that tweaking 'x'
>> would do this and that to 'y' and 'z'. After Win2k he retired.
>> It kinda shows ....
>
> I've always said that Windows' usability (such as it is) peaked
> somewhere between 2k and XP, and has been going downhill ever since.
> You have one possible explanation, although I've always felt that
> people's obsession with shiny things is what drives the decline.
> (When I have to use Windows, it's a copy of XP under VirtualBox.)

"Eye candy" DOES play a role ... geez, look how busy KDE
has become ! Winder, being commercial, always has to out-do
the look with every iteration (and, alas, HIDE the real
functional nuts and bolts stuff deeper and deeper - 11 is even
worse than 10 ; by 12 or 13 bet they'll even remove regedit).

But consider ... by around the time of XP, the push for a
zillion bells and whistles and eye-candy was really ramping
up AT THE SAME TIME the product had become far too complex for
any one (maybe even a group of ones) to actually understand.
Ergo it's been downhill from there. For every "feature" they
add, they introduce two, or ten, deadly flaws/vulnerabilities.

I too have an XP VM "just in case" .. and a very old box in the
corner under some stuff with XP and a chipset that'll still run
8/16-bit software. It even has the two sizes of floppy drives
and a PPort ZIP drive ! I also have VMs of Win2k, 98se, 95, 3.11
and even Win-1 and Win-2 (wow they were horrible !) and CP/M-86.
Gotta have fun sometimes - the old IBM/MS FORTRAN, C and Pascal
compilers, Aztec-C for CP/M :-)

>> No doubt LT is in the same boat now. His tiny "proof of concept"
>> system is now pretty big and and has been re-tweaked over and
>> over and over by helpers. There was a mag I used to get, and
>> there was a column by 'Zack', a kernal developer. Apparently
>> his circle had a lot of, um, 'debates' with LT about how to
>> do things. Big Improvement 'A' would break 999 other longstanding
>> bits of software and/or the paradigms behind them - so Linus
>> would demand either a way to make 'A' civilized or tell 'em
>> to just trash it. "But It Would Make It Better For Gamers"
>> was NOT a good argument. LT wrote a work-horse, not a
>> birthday-party pony with a pink saddle, and he understands that.
>
> Still, Lord Bill has made a _lot_ of money selling birthday-party
> ponies with pink saddles. In a society where money is the only
> morality, that makes Microsoft the very model of success.

Well ... to a POINT it's been "What People Want". Now though
the prices have gone up and MS has become insanely obsessed
with every last penny, mandatory accounts, subscriptions and
de-facto built-in spyware (To Improve The User Experience).
The model is shifting back to client/server because MS can
make more money, and have more control/access, that way.

>>> It depends, how complex the program is, this includes libraries. Any
>>> multi-man project seems to get complicated very quickly.
>>
>> VERY complicated. Hey, they've got "teamware" development
>> systems for that. Now more people can fail understand what
>> they've created than ever before :-)
>>
>> In any case, 'complexity' is almost always The Enemy because
>> it means nobody can 100% understand the software, that more
>> code accelerates entropy as people try to improve the product
>> and because it can conceal a lot of fatal flaws and even
>> deliberate malice.
>
> Complexity is a weapon. This has been well understood by politicians
> and lawyers since long before Microsoft existed.

"Lies, damned lies ... and statistics." .... make the manure pile
high enough and nobody can see over the top.

> The KISS principle is a countermeasure (which is why it's so reviled).
>
>> "Opacity" ... not good .....
>
> For whom?

Anyone BUT the Machiavellian segment ...

[25.BX945]

On 6/5/22 6:39 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 04/06/2022 21:40, 25.BX945 wrote:
>> I'm saying that if we keep drifting in the direction
>>    of Winders "So Easy Even Granny Can Do It" it won't
>>    be long before we effectively HAVE Winders - and all
>>    its problems.
>>
>
> Well there are two responses that spring to mind.
>
> 1/. Winders is there to make money, that biases it in favour of
> chromeware = shiny shit that is actually pointless.

"What do you do when they let you go home,
and the plastic's all melted and the chrome
is too soft ? ..." :-)

> 2/. Winders is not open source, so mistakes cant be fixed easily.

CAN mean that, fewer eyes on the problems. The flip is
usually more sophisticated methods for fixing the problems.
The flip on that, more pointy-haired bosses who don't want
to even HEAR about "problems".

>>    That's not an insult, it's a sure thing. There's
>>    nothing inherently "magic" about Linux/Unix to
>>    protect us from evil - it's mostly that evil
>>    has been harder to do than with Winders. Take away
>>    more and more of those checks in the name of
>>    "convenience" and we'll have TWO major trashy OS's
>>    unfit for any purpose.
>>
> All OSes become trashy after a few thousand indifferent coders have
> vented their egos on them

Trouble is that they're too hard to write these days,
lots - especially "net" stuff - is expected and it
BETTER be plug-n-play with that 3D printer you picked
up in a Ulaanbaatar pawn shop .......

I've always wondered if BeOS could be punched up into
something modern and useful. Alas it was bought by Palm,
which was bought by HP, who sold it to TCC-China ...
so likely there's somebody who can lay claim to it. The
other decent "unix-ISH" one is OS-9, but that's still
actively commercial. CoCo people used to claim OS-9
was even "better" under the hood than Unix.

[Roger Blake]

On 2022-06-06, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
> "What do you do when they let you go home,
> and the plastic's all melted and the chrome
> is too soft ? ..." :-)

What will you do if the people you knew
Were the plastic that melted,
And the chromium too?
Who are the Brain Police? ;-)

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18 Reasons I won't be vaccinated -- https://tinyurl.com/ebty2dx3
Covid vaccines: experimental biology -- https://tinyurl.com/57mncfm5
The fraud of "Climate Change" -- https://RealClimateScience.com
There is no "climate crisis" -- https://climatedepot.com
Don't talk to cops! -- https://DontTalkToCops.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 06/06/2022 01:14, 25.BX945 wrote:
> I too have an XP VM "just in case" .

....my online bank software refuses to accept Linux plus latest firefox.
Apparently 20 year old XP is however fine.

--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

[Bit Twister]

On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:29:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 06/06/2022 01:14, 25.BX945 wrote:
>> I too have an XP VM "just in case" .
> ....my online bank software refuses to accept Linux plus latest firefox.
> Apparently 20 year old XP is however fine.

Sounds like you need to change banks.

Who is your bank?

I would create a business reason for supporting linux firefox by getting
stats from https://distrowatch.com/ and maybe someone at firefox can help
you to ask the bank why they are ignoring x,xxxs amount of a possible
customer base.

He,he, maybe firefox crew has a canned response message you can use to improve
your case. If not suggest they create one for your.

Bring up the fact that the bank pays good money for the website design
and why does it not support linux firefox.

As for accepting XP, A smart banks will not accept connections from any
browser that is a few versions out of date if they cared about customer
security.

I get the latest firefox release each month or so and my bank forces me
through 2 factor authorization each time I change it. It calls me with an
eight digit code I have to enter to complete the login.

Suggest that they check with their legal team about their possible liability.
Shoot a message to the Better Business Bureau or whatever is the same thing
in your part of the country.

Heheh, suggest that maybe the local news could/would use a story about online
safety with the bank as an example of insecurity.

Then send it to each of the bank's VPs and anyone else found on the Contact
link. I bet Marketing/Sales would like a heads up.

I would recommend changing banks. I use Chase and have set my account to
shoot me an email about changes to checking/savings/credit charges.

If not going to change banks, you could experiment this addons which
can change/fake what browser is being used. You might find search engine
results on how to do it without a addon.

[Richard Kettlewell]

Bit Twister <BitTw...@mouse-potato.com> writes:
> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:29:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 06/06/2022 01:14, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>> I too have an XP VM "just in case" .
>> ....my online bank software refuses to accept Linux plus latest firefox.
>> Apparently 20 year old XP is however fine.
>
> Sounds like you need to change banks.

Partially agreed - there are quite a few banking options in this
country, it’s not worth remaining stuck to one of the crapper ones.
OTOH changing primary current account is pretty disruptive...

> Who is your bank?
>
> I would create a business reason for supporting linux firefox by getting
> stats from https://distrowatch.com/ and maybe someone at firefox can help
> you to ask the bank why they are ignoring x,xxxs amount of a possible
> customer base.

Desktop Linux is largely irrelevant as a consumer OS (Android & server
are another matter).

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

[Bit Twister]

On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 06:37:12 -0500, Bit Twister wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:29:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 06/06/2022 01:14, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>> I too have an XP VM "just in case" .
>> ....my online bank software refuses to accept Linux plus latest firefox.
>> Apparently 20 year old XP is however fine.

That would make me a bit nervous wondering just how safe is the web page.

Easy workaround is getting your User Agent name changed to what is
accepted.

You can use http://browserspy.dk/ to view any changes you make.

I find it convent to put most of my setting/changes in a user.ps file
and place a link in the firefox directory that keeps the configuration file.

To find that location I do a
locate /prefs.js
and ln -sf my_firefox_prefs.js /home/xxx/wherever_default/user.js
to add my changes.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 06/06/2022 12:37, Bit Twister wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:29:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 06/06/2022 01:14, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>> I too have an XP VM "just in case" .
>> ....my online bank software refuses to accept Linux plus latest firefox.
>> Apparently 20 year old XP is however fine.
>
>
> Sounds like you need to change banks.
>
> Who is your bank?
>

Barclays.
I reported the bugs, they fixed one, they didn't fix another, they made
a mess of doing share transfers. I closed my sharehilder account with
them., Completely zero support. Website full of dreamy pastel images of
multiracial same sex couples investing their money probably in junk bonds.

> I would create a business reason for supporting linux firefox by getting
> stats from https://distrowatch.com/ and maybe someone at firefox can help
> you to ask the bank why they are ignoring x,xxxs amount of a possible
> customer base.
>

I just left.
I still have my current account with them. It has just enough in it to
pay mointhly bills.

> He,he, maybe firefox crew has a canned response message you can use to improve
> your case. If not suggest they create one for your.
>
> Bring up the fact that the bank pays good money for the website design
> and why does it not support linux firefox.
>

It doesnt support *Linux*. But you are naive. The bank didn't write the
software - it handed the job over to some 'creative web design' house'
that specialises in the above dreamy images and the underlying code is
an after thought, done by probably YATP (yet another third party ) via a
'framework' that insulates everyone from HTML and does it all in
javascript high level calls.

At some point that javascript invokes the operating system, to ask if
its Windows, OS/X Android or IOS. And he browser is beyond a certain
level. If the answer to the first part is 'no' it says 'your browser is
not supported' and throws you out.

It doesn't even use the user agent string, somehow it detects the OS as
no linux browser worked.

It has said for the last seven years that I have tow messages waiting,
When I click on the alarm bell icon it says 'you have no messages'

In the end it is easier to leave the bank than to get the software
issues fixed. So as far as stockbroking, I did.

Originally I was with Charles Schwab, but Barclays bought them and then
they simply had to 'integrate' the really good Schwab platform with
their retail banking website. In the process they ruined it.

> As for accepting XP, A smart banks will not accept connections from any
> browser that is a few versions out of date if they cared about customer
> security.
>

Precisely.This howover rejects *Linux*. There was one praticular
sequence that got me where I wanted to go, but if I didn't follow that
exact sequence it threw me out. Then they broke that too, that and
messing me around in terms of stock transfers and having absolutely zero
customer support 'I am afraid that we do not have direct contact with
the transfer team' WTF????
Even then it took nearly 3 months to transfer to a new firm.
Incompetence piled on arrogance piled on indifference.

> I get the latest firefox release each month or so and my bank forces me
> through 2 factor authorization each time I change it. It calls me with an
> eight digit code I have to enter to complete the login.
>
> Suggest that they check with their legal team about their possible liability.
> Shoot a message to the Better Business Bureau or whatever is the same thing
> in your part of the country.
>
> Heheh, suggest that maybe the local news could/would use a story about online
> safety with the bank as an example of insecurity.
>
> Then send it to each of the bank's VPs and anyone else found on the Contact
> link. I bet Marketing/Sales would like a heads up.
>
> I would recommend changing banks. I use Chase and have set my account to
> shoot me an email about changes to checking/savings/credit charges.
>
> If not going to change banks, you could experiment this addons which
> can change/fake what browser is being used. You might find search engine
> results on how to do it without a addon.
>

Tried all that. No dice.

In the end life is too short. I have once simple message for you all,
Barclays are Bastards, they don't give a flying fuck about anything
except their bottom line. And they want their customer base to consist
of morons with android and IOS phones, who haven't a clue about
investment, but want to dabble and lose money.

Fair enough, But I am not that customer.

I would change my current account as well, but all the high street banks
are the same.

I have a business account with HSBC. They wanted me to jump through
hoops to describe this and that about my little company which virtually
doesn't trade any more. In the end they said if I couldn't provide them
with this and that they would close my account. I emptied it and said
'please close my account'. They wouldn't even let me do *that* without
filling in another 50 online forms. Eventually they said that I had
'passed their security tests'. Yeah, right.


A friend of mine keeps his money in gold coins. In the end it makes sense.


>
>


--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

[The Natural Philosopher]

Well yes, except that there is no reason to actually somehow detect it
and discriminate against it.
AI said its a pure web based app, the same browser on windows worked,
but not on linux. It simply failed some test and ended up with a fall
through to 'your browser is out of date, fuck off' message. I dont
understand how they knew it wasn't Windows or Mac OS/X cos I tried
faking user agent strings....It took real genius to actually detect the
OS and fail.



--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 06/06/2022 14:40, Bit Twister wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 06:37:12 -0500, Bit Twister wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:29:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 06/06/2022 01:14, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>>> I too have an XP VM "just in case" .
>>> ....my online bank software refuses to accept Linux plus latest firefox.
>>> Apparently 20 year old XP is however fine.
>
> That would make me a bit nervous wondering just how safe is the web page.
>
> Easy workaround is getting your User Agent name changed to what is
> accepted.
>

Didn't work mate. They were using some form of javascript OS detection
probably written by a script kiddy who left the firm that sold the
'framework' to the advertising firm that created the pretty pastel
website for the IT new broom who destroyed the working website they
inherited from Schwab.

That Jack built.



--
“The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.”

Herbert Spencer

[Bit Twister]

On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 18:03:55 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 06/06/2022 12:37, Bit Twister wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:29:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 06/06/2022 01:14, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>>> I too have an XP VM "just in case" .
>>> ....my online bank software refuses to accept Linux plus latest firefox.
>>> Apparently 20 year old XP is however fine.
>>
>>
>> Sounds like you need to change banks.
>>
>> Who is your bank?
>>
> Barclays.

Quick Barclays firefox got me a few hits in google search engine. Thought
the Barclays Bank | Firefox Support Forum was interesting.

Next link Updating your web browser - Barclays
gave me Barclays web page indicating they support Linux Firefox.

LOL.

[Charlie Gibbs]

On 2022-06-06, Bit Twister <BitTw...@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:29:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 06/06/2022 01:14, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>
>>> I too have an XP VM "just in case" .
>>
>> ....my online bank software refuses to accept Linux plus latest firefox.
>> Apparently 20 year old XP is however fine.
>
> Sounds like you need to change banks.

Either that or file a class-action lawsuit charging digital racism.

[25.BX945]

On 6/6/22 9:40 AM, Bit Twister wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 06:37:12 -0500, Bit Twister wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:29:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 06/06/2022 01:14, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>>> I too have an XP VM "just in case" .
>>> ....my online bank software refuses to accept Linux plus latest firefox.
>>> Apparently 20 year old XP is however fine.
>
> That would make me a bit nervous wondering just how safe is the web page.

Just "a bit" ??? :-)

> Easy workaround is getting your User Agent name changed to what is
> accepted.

Well, not THAT easy ...

> You can use http://browserspy.dk/ to view any changes you make.
>
> I find it convent to put most of my setting/changes in a user.ps file
> and place a link in the firefox directory that keeps the configuration file.
>
> To find that location I do a
> locate /prefs.js
> and ln -sf my_firefox_prefs.js /home/xxx/wherever_default/user.js
> to add my changes.

MANY institutions now presume ONLY Winders exists - and
to some degree Mac. If you don't fit their mold they won't
do business with you. SO much easier to pry and spy if
you're using Winders after all ........

I'd suggest a different bank - and TELL them, after, why
you switched.

[25.BX945]

On 6/6/22 1:11 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 06/06/2022 14:40, Bit Twister wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 06:37:12 -0500, Bit Twister wrote:
>>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:29:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 06/06/2022 01:14, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>>>> I too have an XP VM "just in case" .
>>>> ....my online bank software refuses to accept Linux plus latest
>>>> firefox.
>>>> Apparently 20 year old XP is however fine.
>>
>> That would make me a bit nervous wondering just how safe is the web page.
>>
>> Easy workaround is getting your User Agent name changed to what is
>> accepted.
>>
>
> Didn't work mate. They were using some form of javascript OS detection
> probably written by a script kiddy who left the firm that sold the
> 'framework' to the advertising firm that created the pretty pastel
> website for the IT new broom who destroyed the working website they
> inherited from Schwab.
>
> That Jack built.

I'm sure there's a way to fake-out the JS detector ... but
there soon comes a point where it's just easier to DUMP
the bank and find a more enlightened one.

Send a letter AFTER, explaining.

[25.BX945]

On 6/6/22 1:03 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 06/06/2022 12:37, Bit Twister wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:29:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 06/06/2022 01:14, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>>> I too have an XP VM "just in case" .
>>> ....my online bank software refuses to accept Linux plus latest firefox.
>>> Apparently 20 year old XP is however fine.
>>
>>
>> Sounds like you need to change banks.
>>
>> Who is your bank?
>>
> Barclays.
> I reported the bugs, they fixed one, they didn't fix another, they made
> a mess of doing share transfers. I closed my sharehilder account with
> them., Completely zero support. Website full of dreamy pastel images of
> multiracial same sex couples investing their money probably in junk bonds.

Enough reason right there to DUMP them.

The new mantra is "Go Woke - Go BROKE" - make it real.

[25.BX945]

On 6/6/22 1:07 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 06/06/2022 13:45, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> Bit Twister <BitTw...@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:29:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> On 06/06/2022 01:14, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>>>> I too have an XP VM "just in case" .
>>>> ....my online bank software refuses to accept Linux plus latest
>>>> firefox.
>>>> Apparently 20 year old XP is however fine.
>>>
>>> Sounds like you need to change banks.
>>
>> Partially agreed - there are quite a few banking options in this
>> country, it’s not worth remaining stuck to one of the crapper ones.
>> OTOH changing primary current account is pretty disruptive...
>>
>>> Who is your bank?
>>>
>>> I would create a business reason for supporting linux firefox by getting
>>> stats from https://distrowatch.com/ and maybe someone at firefox can
>>> help
>>> you to ask the bank why they are ignoring x,xxxs amount of a possible
>>> customer base.
>>
>> Desktop Linux is largely irrelevant as a consumer OS (Android & server
>> are another matter).
>>
> Well yes, except that there is no reason to actually somehow detect it
> and discriminate against it.

Yes there is. MS/Apple will give 'em a discount/perks ...

[25.BX945]

On 6/5/22 11:44 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2022-06-06, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>> "What do you do when they let you go home,
>> and the plastic's all melted and the chrome
>> is too soft ? ..." :-)
>
> What will you do if the people you knew
> Were the plastic that melted,
> And the chromium too?
> Who are the Brain Police? ;-)

Ah ha - a cultured individual :-)

19th century, Sam Clemens. 20th century, FZ and
George Carlin. Best BULLSHIT detectors on the
planet.

And the answer, which was a question ... ESPECIALLY,
rather SUDDENLY, relevant now ......

(Psst ... Servilan is still looking for you)

[25.BX945]

On 6/1/22 11:34 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
> Pastor Pentium <ko...@leica.com> writes:
>
>> Ubuntu 22.04 has lost me for good now, since they hardwired snap into
>> it. You can remove this cancer, but a number of applications have no
>> deb file!
>> I use linux because I won't fine-grained control, install things with
>> yum/apt/zypper.
>> Stop fixing shit that ain't broke!
>
> Another stupid most by some malcontent trying to stir people up.
> Stop complaining about things that have zero effect on you.
> You sound like an idiot.
>
> Fedora supports snaps. I don't use it, but I can if I want to.
> I fail to see a problem.

Another snap/flat suck-up. Vlad loves you.

I *was* gonna upgrade a bunch of boxes to US-22.04, but
now I won't. Straight Debian from now on. Indeed Devuan
is beginning to look attractive .............. systemd
has some uses, but some downsides as well. Ever closer
to Win Registry IMHO .......

[Robert Riches]

Fwiw: Devuan works well for me! As a refugee from systemd when
Mageia 2 switched to it, I have used Debian Wheezy and Slackware
14.2 (don't recall which order) and now three releases of Devuan.
Devuan's update servers are sometimes slow, but that can be
worked around by downloading overnight if needed.

--
Robert Riches
spamt...@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

[Richard Kettlewell]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> writes:
> On 06/06/2022 12:37, Bit Twister wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 10:29:07 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 06/06/2022 01:14, 25.BX945 wrote:
>>>> I too have an XP VM "just in case" .
>>> ....my online bank software refuses to accept Linux plus latest firefox.
>>> Apparently 20 year old XP is however fine.
>>
>> Sounds like you need to change banks.
>> Who is your bank?
>>
> Barclays.
> I reported the bugs, they fixed one, they didn't fix another, they
> made a mess of doing share transfers. I closed my sharehilder account
> with them., Completely zero support. Website full of dreamy pastel
> images of multiracial same sex couples investing their money probably
> in junk bonds.

FWIW the Barclays online banking works for me from Linux with Firefox
101.0, although I don’t have a current account with them so I’m not in a
position to fully explore what functionality works and what doesn’t.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

[The Natural Philosopher]

So they are lying cunts as well


--
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly
persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid
before him."

- Leo Tolstoy

[The Natural Philosopher]

I couldn't be arsed, frankly.
Far better to tell the community that they are a mediocre high street
bank and a disaster as a investor interface to stock, share and fund
trading.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I have been around software for long enough to know how it goes. At some
level some PFY is asked by his boss to create a routine that will check
browser compatibility, irrespective of what user agent is supplied.
Because his is a smart whippersnapper he dives into the darkest recesses
of Javascript to find some function that interacts with the operating
system in a uniquely identifiable way. It works for windows and it works
for Macintosh and it works for android and it works for IOS

You can imagine the code

CASE (gargleblaster==1 and analProbe==1 and (browser=='firefox' &&
version >6.0) || browser=='Edge ||...); OS=='Android' or OS=='WINSDER'
|| OS == IOS || OS=='OSX) ;break...
......
default: "Upgrade your browser"
exit(website)

And this code will be part of a library that has been used by a company
that writes websites that consists solely of 'creatives' who really
cannot code - all they do is arrange dialogue boxes and pretty images.

And Barclays IT has hired them, to create a 'woke' website that will
appeal to morons that are easy to part from their money.

Additionally technical support is now geared to these morons who all
access their accounts via mobile phones. And is merely a front for an
organization that doesn't give a fuck about its customers. Only about
compliance with financial standards. I got about ten letters asking if I
had been satisfied with customer support, but responding 'no' gets you
nowhere either.

The difference between Barclays and Interactive Investor was so vast I
nearly fell out of my pram. A support team who want to keep you happy so
you will go away. A website so simple to use that it is amazing how
barclays could get it so wrong.
The assumption that you actually know about settlement delays and so on.

Anyway its not an indictment of Linux, its an indictment of Barclays and
a class of modern company that despises its employees and its customers
equally. And a class of IT that things a website is a marketing tool,
not a way to access a bank account or trade shares.



--
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

[The Natural Philosopher]

It was specifically the SmartInvestor platform* that was broken.

I am still using them as a high street bank, because frankly the others
are no better.

They seem just about able to process direct debits and debit cards and
occasionally provide cash (remember cash>?) at a hole in the wall...

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

[Pancho]

Barclays used to be a shit employer too, expected long hours, etc. I
went for an interview once, but we didn't get on. At the time I
considered it my failure, but in hindsight I think it is probably good
to let a bit of your real character show through in interviews.

For a current account, I've been with First Direct for decades, they
aren't particularly great, but good enough not to piss me off enough to
switch. I even got to shag one of their staff back in the day, when I
did that sort of thing :o).

[Richard Kettlewell]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> writes:
> On 07/06/2022 08:05, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> FWIW the Barclays online banking works for me from Linux with
>> Firefox
>> 101.0, although I don’t have a current account with them so I’m not in a
>> position to fully explore what functionality works and what doesn’t.
>
> It was specifically the SmartInvestor platform* that was broken.

Right, not tried it, and looking at the fee structure I won’t be going
near it any time soon l-)

> I am still using them as a high street bank, because frankly the
> others are no better.
>
> They seem just about able to process direct debits and debit cards and
> occasionally provide cash (remember cash>?) at a hole in the wall...

I’m trying to forget cash...

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

[Roger Blake]

On 2022-06-07, Richard Kettlewell <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I’m trying to forget cash...

Cash is freedom and privacy. I use it for all local purchases.

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Roger Blake <rogb...@iname.invalid> wrote:
> On 2022-06-07, Richard Kettlewell <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> I'm trying to forget cash...
>
> Cash is freedom and privacy. I use it for all local purchases.

Same here. No online banking either, for any account where
significant money is kept.

With things like PayPal's constant double-Captcha prompting (which
mercifully disappeared recently), and different online store sites
declining different cards for unknown reasons, cashless payments
online already cause me enough trouble.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

[25.BX945]

On 6/7/22 12:01 AM, Robert Riches wrote:
> On 2022-06-07, 25.BX945<25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>> On 6/1/22 11:34 AM, Dan Espen wrote:
>>> Pastor Pentium<ko...@leica.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Ubuntu 22.04 has lost me for good now, since they hardwired snap into
>>>> it. You can remove this cancer, but a number of applications have no
>>>> deb file!
>>>> I use linux because I won't fine-grained control, install things with
>>>> yum/apt/zypper.
>>>> Stop fixing shit that ain't broke!
>>> Another stupid most by some malcontent trying to stir people up.
>>> Stop complaining about things that have zero effect on you.
>>> You sound like an idiot.
>>>
>>> Fedora supports snaps. I don't use it, but I can if I want to.
>>> I fail to see a problem.
>> Another snap/flat suck-up. Vlad loves you.
>>

>> I*was* gonna upgrade a bunch of boxes to US-22.04, but

>> now I won't. Straight Debian from now on. Indeed Devuan
>> is beginning to look attractive .............. systemd
>> has some uses, but some downsides as well. Ever closer
>> to Win Registry IMHO .......

> Fwiw: Devuan works well for me! As a refugee from systemd when
> Mageia 2 switched to it, I have used Debian Wheezy and Slackware
> 14.2 (don't recall which order) and now three releases of Devuan.
> Devuan's update servers are sometimes slow, but that can be
> worked around by downloading overnight if needed.

I created two Devuan installations in VM today to check
'em out. Both the net-install and 'server' seem to take
you down the same route. The 'alternative' update server
actually seems a bit snappier BTW. Did the simplest
install then added IceWM for ease-of-use. ALWAYS remember
the "--no-install-recommends" and '--no-install-suggests"
options for apt-get of course :-)

I do use systemd for certain stuff. One of its best features
is the ability to 'watchdog' apps and re-start them if they
crash. This IS useful. Otherwise you have to write your own
watchdogs, and who watches the watchdogs ? However I'm not
sure this one feature is WORTH the extra complexity and
opacity. I'll see what I can do with Devuan and init.d ...
might not be so horrible (for me). Cron can start stuff on
time or at reboot (wrote my own a few weeks ago so I could
de-clutter the root crontab plus add some reporting codes
for each pgm run. It keeps track of when they start, when
they end, and can kill 'frozen' pgms after an interval).
Python proto ... another pass or two to tighten-up the
coding, then translate to 'C'.

In any case, I *am* gonna replace everything I've got running
on U.S. now and put it on vanilla Debian. I've just HAD IT
with Canonical - the mindset there seems to be more and
more MicroSoft .... and in a few years that's exactly what
we'll HAVE - crap. Centos WOULD have been an alternative
refuge ... until. Like Deb better anyhow.

[25.BX945]

On 6/7/22 8:31 AM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2022-06-07, Richard Kettlewell <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> I’m trying to forget cash...
>
> Cash is freedom and privacy. I use it for all local purchases.

Ditto.

[25.BX945]

A few years back, I started to sign up with PayPal - but
changed my mind about half way through it. A couple days
later I started getting phishing mails claiming I needed
to give my acct id and CC info so certain purchases could
be dealt with properly. I hadn't even gotten to the credit
card part and, backing out, the e-mail address SHOULD
have disappeared too. This smelled of INTERNAL corruption,
employees being very very naughty. I'll NEVER use it now.

And no, I don't do online banking either. I go TO a bank,
get my face in front of HUMANS (and the security cams)
any time there's important stuff to do. They know me, I
know them. MUCH better.

In any case, use cash fairly often - it disrupts attempts
to "profile" you - by biz or govt. And yes, todays 'AI'
really CAN watch everybody all the time, looking for
"something" ... it's really an unwarranted search .....
waiting for some lawyers to pick up on that ..........

[25.BX945]

On 6/5/22 11:44 PM, Roger Blake wrote:
> On 2022-06-06, 25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
>> "What do you do when they let you go home,
>> and the plastic's all melted and the chrome
>> is too soft ? ..." :-)
>
> What will you do if the people you knew
> Were the plastic that melted,
> And the chromium too?
> Who are the Brain Police? ;-)

Ah ... cultured :-)

The answer is a question that is now especially
relevant ..........

[25.BX945]

Yea yea ... but you missed what I was *saying* ..... big outfits
use LOTS of very expensive MS and Apple software - SO, intentionally
screw the Linux/Unix people MS/Apple doesn't make much money from
and they'll supply Company-X with a big DISCOUNT when it's time
to upgrade ...........

When it question, when in doubt, follow the MONEY
and you'll find out. (Me, as best I know)

> You can imagine the code
>
> CASE (gargleblaster==1 and analProbe==1 and (browser=='firefox' &&
> version >6.0) || browser=='Edge ||...); OS=='Android' or OS=='WINSDER'
> || OS == IOS || OS=='OSX) ;break...
> ......
> default: "Upgrade your browser"
>         exit(website)
>
> And this code will be part of a library that has been used by a company
> that writes websites that consists solely of 'creatives' who really
> cannot code - all they do is arrange dialogue boxes and pretty images.
>
> And Barclays IT has hired them, to create a 'woke' website that will
> appeal to morons that are easy to part from their money.
>
> Additionally technical support is now geared to these morons who all
> access their accounts via mobile phones. And is merely a front for an
> organization that doesn't give a fuck about its customers. Only about
> compliance with financial standards. I got about ten letters asking if I
> had been satisfied with customer support, but responding 'no' gets you
> nowhere either.

Barclays is a "financial institution" - that's their #1 interest.

Inconveniencing 1% of customers online experiences ... they just
don't give a shit.

[Robert Riches]

For the issue of watchdogging other apps, a decade or so ago I
worked with a program called 'monit' that did that rather well.
For each app I wanted monit to control, I had to write a short
(between 5 and 12 lines) config file for that app. If monit was
still growing in popularity, there might be canned config files
available for some more common apps.

HTH

[25.BX945]

I've heard of monit ... but I don't know if anyone has been
keeping it current. Maybe it was "perfection" and didn't need
any tweaks for a decade .....

In any case, watchdogging IS important for certain apps - and
there's also the issue of watching the watchdogs. Annoying, but
that's the Real World - stuff that CAN'T crash still tends to
crash anyway.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 08/06/2022 03:45, 25.BX945 wrote:
> Barclays is a "financial institution" - that's their #1 interest.
>
>   Inconveniencing 1% of customers online experiences ... they just
>   don't give a shit.

So are Interactive Investor. And they regard not inconveniencing any of
their customers as good business practice.



--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

[The Natural Philosopher]

Opinions are divided as to whether that is a really smart thing, or a
dangerously dumb thing, to do.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I use one debit card and paypal for everything except direct debits and
direct bank to bank payments. Like Richard I seldom use cash. I don't
buy anything that I am ashamed of or really want to conceal from the
authorities.

Throughout my life I have learnt to keep as boring a public profile as
possible.

But as Mr Zimmerman said...

"If my thought dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine"

Free thought still exists.

--
“It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of
intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on
intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since...it is
futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into,
we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every
criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a
power-directed system of thought.”
Sir Roger Scruton

[The Natural Philosopher]

I remember back in around 1995 going into a bank in I think Colorado to
get some cash. I presented the cashier with my UK Mastercard. She looked
at it dubiously "I guess we can try" keyed in the credentials and said
in a surprised choice 'that worked!"

UK is not the most advanced nation in the world but it is well ahead of
the USA.


--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

[Richard Kettlewell]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> writes:
> On 07/06/2022 13:08, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> On 07/06/2022 08:05, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>>> FWIW the Barclays online banking works for me from Linux with
>>>> Firefox
>>>> 101.0, although I don’t have a current account with them so I’m not in a
>>>> position to fully explore what functionality works and what doesn’t.
>>>
>>> It was specifically the SmartInvestor platform* that was broken.
>> Right, not tried it, and looking at the fee structure I won’t be
>> going
>> near it any time soon l-)
>>
>>> I am still using them as a high street bank, because frankly the
>>> others are no better.
>>>
>>> They seem just about able to process direct debits and debit cards and
>>> occasionally provide cash (remember cash>?) at a hole in the wall...
>> I’m trying to forget cash...
>
> Opinions are divided as to whether that is a really smart thing, or a
> dangerously dumb thing, to do.

It’s situational l-) if you’re buying something your government doesn’t
like then using electronic payments isn’t a great plan. But you also
shouldn’t expect governments to have much interest in keeping cash going
past the point in the future that the only surviving use cases are
illegal or at least vote-losers.

If you’re just buying your groceries ... who cares? (In fact I mostly
buy online and have stuff delivered, anyway. My buying patterns are
visible electronically regardless of payment method.)

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

[jan Anja]

25.BX945 <25B...@nada.net> wrote:
> I do use systemd for certain stuff. One of its best features
> is the ability to 'watchdog' apps and re-start them if they
> crash. This IS useful. Otherwise you have to write your own
> watchdogs, and who watches the watchdogs ? However I'm not
> sure this one feature is WORTH the extra complexity and
> opacity. I'll see what I can do with Devuan and init.d ...
> might not be so horrible (for me). Cron can start stuff on
> time or at reboot (wrote my own a few weeks ago so I could
> de-clutter the root crontab plus add some reporting codes
> for each pgm run. It keeps track of when they start, when
> they end, and can kill 'frozen' pgms after an interval).
> Python proto ... another pass or two to tighten-up the
> coding, then translate to 'C'.

There are lots of daemon supervisers. I use `supervise-daemon` from
OpenRC.

[John McCue]

Pastor Pentium <ko...@leica.com> wrote:
> Ubuntu 22.04 has lost me for good now, since they hardwired snap into
> it. You can remove this cancer, but a number of applications have no deb
> file!
> I use linux because I won't fine-grained control, install things with
> yum/apt/zypper.
> Stop fixing shit that ain't broke!

Well that seems to be a symptom of where Linux is going
these days :( RHEL seems to be planning on forcing flatpak
down our throats. I fear the major Linux Distros is
trying to replicate Apple and to a less extent Microsoft
in creating a walled garden.

I hope the distros that do not buy into
snap/flatpak/systemd can survive these changes. But right
now I am skeptical of this.

BTW, this is more suitable for Linux Advocacy, but I
unsubscribed from that news group because it morphed into
a cesspool of political crap.

--
[t]csh(1) - "An elegant shell, for a more... civilized age."
- Paraphrasing Star Wars

[Computer Nerd Kev]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 07/06/2022 23:40, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Roger Blake <rogb...@iname.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2022-06-07, Richard Kettlewell <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> I'm trying to forget cash...
>>>
>>> Cash is freedom and privacy. I use it for all local purchases.
>>
>> Same here. No online banking either, for any account where
>> significant money is kept.
>>
>> With things like PayPal's constant double-Captcha prompting (which
>> mercifully disappeared recently), and different online store sites
>> declining different cards for unknown reasons, cashless payments
>> online already cause me enough trouble.
>>
> I use one debit card and paypal for everything except direct debits and
> direct bank to bank payments. Like Richard I seldom use cash. I don't
> buy anything that I am ashamed of or really want to conceal from the
> authorities.

It's not just the privacy angle, but also that by trying to keep
use of the debit card to a short list of machines (in my case two),
you minimise the attack surface that's exposed to skimmers or other
EFTPOS hacks.

By making note of whenever I do need to use the card with another
machine, I can go through the statement that the bank mails to me
and check for any unusual transactions, making sure that they were
really me.

For the latter you could use the card everywhere and just
keep/check more records, but I think that's more work than just
paying with cash.

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Richard Kettlewell <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> On 07/06/2022 13:08, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>> I'm trying to forget cash...
>>
>> Opinions are divided as to whether that is a really smart thing, or a
>> dangerously dumb thing, to do.
>
> It's situational l-) if you're buying something your government doesn't
> like then using electronic payments isn't a great plan.

Also if you don't like them knowing where you've been. For example
if you don't want anyone to know that you drove to someplace to
meet with so-and-so, it's probably not a good idea to pay for fuel
using your card at the local petrol station there.

But for that to matter you also have to not carry a mobile phone,
otherwise that will track you anyway (or the car itself might do
that these days), and "someplace" better not have traffic cameras
recording number plates. In my case I do in fact usually follow
both of those conditions without really trying.

> But you also
> shouldn't expect governments to have much interest in keeping cash going
> past the point in the future that the only surviving use cases are
> illegal or at least vote-losers.

Trying to expect what governments will do in the future is an
industry in itself. I take it as it comes. That's half the reason I
don't want detailed records on file about everything I do. For all
I know my country might get invaded next year during WWIII and the
occupiers will be checking through those records to pick out likely
dissenters.

[25.BX945]

On 6/8/22 4:41 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 08/06/2022 03:45, 25.BX945 wrote:
>> Barclays is a "financial institution" - that's their #1 interest.
>>
>>    Inconveniencing 1% of customers online experiences ... they just
>>    don't give a shit.
>
> So are Interactive Investor. And they regard not inconveniencing any of
> their customers as good business practice.

But, as I suggested, maybe they're being ENCOURAGED
to inconvenience a certain one percent ....

How much do they spend on MS/Apple biz-related plans
every year ? Even a 1% discount for SCREWING Linux
users would add up to a LOT of money.

[25.BX945]

On 6/8/22 10:51 AM, John McCue wrote:
> Pastor Pentium <ko...@leica.com> wrote:
>> Ubuntu 22.04 has lost me for good now, since they hardwired snap into
>> it. You can remove this cancer, but a number of applications have no deb
>> file!
>> I use linux because I won't fine-grained control, install things with
>> yum/apt/zypper.
>> Stop fixing shit that ain't broke!
>
> Well that seems to be a symptom of where Linux is going
> these days :( RHEL seems to be planning on forcing flatpak
> down our throats. I fear the major Linux Distros is
> trying to replicate Apple and to a less extent Microsoft
> in creating a walled garden.
>
> I hope the distros that do not buy into
> snap/flatpak/systemd can survive these changes. But right
> now I am skeptical of this.

First off, there's no reason for Joe Average to be
using de-facto "IBM Linux" or any close relative
anymore. It's ruined. Stick to deb/arch/slack-
based distros (and there are other independents).

STUPID/DANGEROUS shit MUST be avoided, fought against.
In the next weeks instead of 'upgrading' my various
U.S. boxes I'm changing them to vanilla Deb instead.
Been looking into Devuan too - for MY purposes I think
I can get by sans systemd without too much trouble.
Just need a simple "multi-watchdog" pgm I can run from
cron. Even wrote my own cron, just in case .....

"Home" use ... you have more elbow-room there. I like MX,
but even there I have removed certain features. If I can't
get it as a .deb or source, I JUST DON'T.

> BTW, this is more suitable for Linux Advocacy, but I
> unsubscribed from that news group because it morphed into
> a cesspool of political crap.

You noticed that ? Seems to be just one or two
who include it in everything they post to more
"political" groups. Likely I'm in there somewhere,
though I *try* to remove Linux groups from the
headers.

[Richard Kettlewell]

n...@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) writes:
> Richard Kettlewell <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> On 07/06/2022 13:08, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>>> I'm trying to forget cash...
>>>
>>> Opinions are divided as to whether that is a really smart thing, or
>>> a dangerously dumb thing, to do.
>>
>> It's situational l-) if you're buying something your government
>> doesn't like then using electronic payments isn't a great plan.
>
> Also if you don't like them knowing where you've been. For example if
> you don't want anyone to know that you drove to someplace to meet with
> so-and-so, it's probably not a good idea to pay for fuel using your
> card at the local petrol station there.
>
> But for that to matter you also have to not carry a mobile phone,
> otherwise that will track you anyway (or the car itself might do that
> these days), and "someplace" better not have traffic cameras recording
> number plates. In my case I do in fact usually follow both of those
> conditions without really trying.

If you actually want to stop a motivated state from tracking you you’re
going to need to do more than avoid phones and electronic payments,
you’re going to need to avoid any business with security cameras, any
road with ANPR, etc.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 09/06/2022 00:11, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> It's not just the privacy angle, but also that by trying to keep
> use of the debit card to a short list of machines (in my case two),
> you minimise the attack surface that's exposed to skimmers or other
> EFTPOS hacks.
>

With contactless, how does that work anyway?

> By making note of whenever I do need to use the card with another
> machine, I can go through the statement that the bank mails to me
> and check for any unusual transactions, making sure that they were
> really me.
>
> For the latter you could use the card everywhere and just
> keep/check more records, but I think that's more work than just
> paying with cash.

Hard to dupe a card when its just being waved.

Online transactions more a problem, but you cant use cash online


--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Most businesses with security cameras are only interested in their
own security, they're not going to be uploading the data to some
central government system where people are identified, located, and
recorded in the same way as card payments and phone usage is. At
least not for me in Australia, China and the like are another
matter of course.

Yes cops can request to see footage recorded by businesses, but
only when they're actually investigating a specific crime.

> any road with ANPR, etc.

(ANPR = "Automatic number-plate recognition", according to
Wikipedia)

I don't think there's much of that going on while I'm driving
between various Australian country towns. It's a different case in
the major cities of course.

[Computer Nerd Kev]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 09/06/2022 00:11, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> It's not just the privacy angle, but also that by trying to keep
>> use of the debit card to a short list of machines (in my case two),
>> you minimise the attack surface that's exposed to skimmers or other
>> EFTPOS hacks.
>>
>
> With contactless, how does that work anyway?

Much better than with normal cards!

My main debit card doesn't actually support contactless, and my
other cards are only used online with money loaded on immediately
before purchase, so I've never looked into it in much detail. But
there's plenty of evidence to be found:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/jul/23/contactless-card-is-too-easy-says-which
Found via:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID_skimming

> Online transactions more a problem, but you cant use cash online

But I do use different cards with only enough money to pay roughly
what they claim to charge me. "Roughly" because the rule turns out
to be that, with 101 different fees from all sorts of things, I'm
almost always charged a little more than I expect for online
purchases. I've been caught out many times by not putting enough
extra money on, thinking I knew all the fees involved when I'd
actually missed a few, or they charged one twice, etc. etc.

I's good to put a limit on exactly how much they can rip you off
that way at least.

[25.BX945]

On 6/8/22 7:28 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> Richard Kettlewell <inv...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> On 07/06/2022 13:08, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>>> I'm trying to forget cash...
>>>
>>> Opinions are divided as to whether that is a really smart thing, or a
>>> dangerously dumb thing, to do.
>>
>> It's situational l-) if you're buying something your government doesn't
>> like then using electronic payments isn't a great plan.
>
> Also if you don't like them knowing where you've been. For example
> if you don't want anyone to know that you drove to someplace to
> meet with so-and-so, it's probably not a good idea to pay for fuel
> using your card at the local petrol station there.

It's not just a matter of exactly where you've been. Both
govts and commercial interests build "behavioral profiles"
encompassing everything they've ever seen you buy. Modern
"AI" really CAN watch all the people all the time - and can
report "unusual" behavior - or "commercially exploitable"
behavior.

Using cash regularly makes it very hard to build such
profiles. Not enough solid data points.

[25.BX945]

YEARS ago I lined my wallet with metallized plastic foil
that'd bounce away the high-frequency signals that can
covertly read yer cards. Good stuff - double-coated mylar
expensive WD disk drives come in. Easy to use.

Decidedly NOT in favor of "contactless" cards ... even
more vulnerable. Stick 'em in the SLOT.

Oh, and yes, I never keep more cash than I can afford to
lose on the debit cards - and do manual, AT THE BANK,
account xfers. Nothing like paper instruments/recipts.
They can't disappear paper. Any issue and you can wave
it in their faces - or better, have yer LAWYER wave
'em in their faces. You'll have no problems.

And NEVER make big deposits thru the ATMs. If it fucks
up they'll always say "Well, you SHOULD have used a
teller ... sorry, we can't help". Banks are orientated
towards MAKING money first and foremost. It's the biz
model for the past couple millenia.

[25.BX945]

That's almost IMPOSSIBLE these days.

However you CAN do much of your biz with cheepo mom&pop
stores who aren't as likely to be linked to the global
surveillance web.

AND, do at least a third of your biz in CASH. This helps
screw-up the building of "behavioral profiles" by spooks
and biz.

[Robert Riches]

A company that calls itself Identity Stronghold
(www.idstronghold.com) sells metallic-lined sleeves for
credit/debit cards. At my former employer, after asking the
guard at the lobby if I could test the sleeve on my company ID
key-badge and the lobby reader, I put the badge in a sleeve. The
guard tried to scan it, but the reader saw nothing. I called
that a reasonably positive indication that the sleeves work.

[25.BX945]

Must be Linux - such a creative name :-)

But yes, 'supervising' daemons is an old and sometimes
vexing issue. Numerous solutions - OR - write your own
so you KNOW how it works.

Systemd is a conglomerate of such solutions. However
it's broad and deep to the point of being opaque.
For NOW I'd say it's fairly safe ... but it would
be too easy to slip in a bunch of nasty stuff.

init.d is crude - but obvious and comprehensible.

The cron I recently wrote CAN, with not too much
extra code, be a "daemon manager" that'd cover
most needs. Since I wrote it, I understand it
(most anyone could - and the Python proto isn't
really all that big (and 60% comments really)).
I even added @reboot in a fun funky way (it
writes a bash script that does what you expect
and executes it before self-emolation). The only
thing it doesn't do is "hybrid" crontab-style
items like "Jan-Mar,Nov,Dec" but I'll get to that
before I translate it into 'C'.

Systemd seems seconds-based, mine runs every
minute instead - but that's a choice for lower
CPU utilization.

In any case, to prevent Windersization, I strongly
encourage SIMPLER, transparent, controlability-
aware solutions both for daemons and software
installation/updates. Defaults should always be
in favor of user-level control -vs- automation.
Maybe only 10% of users can really benefit from
seeing the lower-level stuff that's being done
but that DOES help a lot in terms of spotting
bad/malicious/exploitable code.

And those capable - REALLY think about a Linux/Unix
successor - something different enough so MS and IBM
can not claim some kind of 'round-about "ownership".
Who will be the next Linus ?

There was, indeed still IS, a very old OS that
the old CoCo users really liked called OS-9.
It's still sold (MicroWare) and is a Near-Real-Time
OS mostly used for device control these days. But
the skinny was that while it reminded of Unix, it
was a lot "better" in many practical way - slim
and snappy because of the NRTOS intent. Punch that
paradigm up to 64 bits and .....

[25.BX945]

International stuff is always "iffy" - and the USA is big
enough to be self-centered too.

> UK is not the most advanced nation in the world but it is well ahead of
> the USA.

Ummmm ... I'd say "better adapted for its environment".
The USA is a different environment. We don't so much CARE
about making things easy for people in some other country.
Yea, we'll make it work in the end ... but you could spend
a little while getting to that end.

To a POINT that's maybe not such a bad thing, keeps
foreign scams/crimes from spreading to the USA
efficiently.