WABI available on Linux or not

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yamaguchi kouichirou

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Aug 24, 1993, 10:49:54 PM8/24/93
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Hello dear Linuxers.

I have a question. Excuse me if there were some similar questions
in the past, but at least I couldn't find any similar question or answer
in the FAQ list.

My qestion is about the WINDOWS API emulator on UNIX-clone systems.
I've heard that Sun's WABI, MS-WINDOWS API emulator on Solaris, made it
possible to use MS-WINDOWS software on UNIX systems.

Usually I make some data on Linux and reboot my PC and then
feed them to the Mathematika for WINDOWS. It's very tedious procedure.
I think it will save much my time if something like WABI were available
on Linux. It may be very meritorious if many MS-WINDOWS programmes were
executable on Linux like on OS/2.

I would like to know if some development projects for
MS-WINDOWS emulator on Linux like dosemu ( or winemu ?) are going on
now or not. If it so, by making japanese localized version of winemu,
it might be possible to execute some japanese localized Windows programs
like MS-WORD, MS-EXCEL, e.t.c.

I think it may be very hard task to make winemu comparing
with dosemu, since the number of API of Windows are many times larger
than that of DOS. It will need much person-power to accomplish such
project like winemu.

Thanks in advance for any comments.

--
Koichiro Yamaguchi @ Mukoyama LABO, Institute for Chemical Research,
Kyoto University, Uji-shi, 611 JAPAN.
E-mail: koic...@elec.kuicr.kyoto-u.ac.jp

Byron A Jeff

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Aug 25, 1993, 8:26:44 AM8/25/93
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In article <1993Aug25....@kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp>,

yamaguchi kouichirou <h54...@sakura.kudpc.kyoto-u.ac.jp> wrote:
>Hello dear Linuxers.
>
> I have a question. Excuse me if there were some similar questions
>in the past, but at least I couldn't find any similar question or answer
>in the FAQ list.

The FAQ is being rewritten. This question should be in the rewrite.

>
> My qestion is about the WINDOWS API emulator on UNIX-clone systems.
>I've heard that Sun's WABI, MS-WINDOWS API emulator on Solaris, made it
>possible to use MS-WINDOWS software on UNIX systems.

I'd say Solaris systems, not Unix in general.

>
> Usually I make some data on Linux and reboot my PC and then
>feed them to the Mathematika for WINDOWS. It's very tedious procedure.
>I think it will save much my time if something like WABI were available
>on Linux. It may be very meritorious if many MS-WINDOWS programmes were
>executable on Linux like on OS/2.

Yes it would.

>
> I would like to know if some development projects for
>MS-WINDOWS emulator on Linux like dosemu ( or winemu ?) are going on
>now or not. If it so, by making japanese localized version of winemu,
>it might be possible to execute some japanese localized Windows programs
>like MS-WORD, MS-EXCEL, e.t.c.

Yes it is. It's called WINE. It's pre-Alpha (meaning no code available) but
making progress. The development effort is about 2 months old.

>
> I think it may be very hard task to make winemu comparing
>with dosemu, since the number of API of Windows are many times larger
>than that of DOS. It will need much person-power to accomplish such
>project like winemu.

True. Which is why the developers need and are asking for help. See the
README below.

BAJ
-------------------------------- README for WINE ----------------------------

The Wine project for linux is an attempt to write something
with similar functionality to the WABI that was developed by Sun.

The basic goal is to be able to take a MS-Windows binary and
run it under Linux with X-Windows running. The finished product will
essentiaily consist of two parts:

a) A program loader, which will load the Windows binary into
the virtual memory of the linux process, provide a means for adjusting
the ldt of the processor so that the 16-bit segments that are
typically used with Windows binaries will work correctly, and provide
a means for calling the Windows binary in the first place, allowing
the Windows binary to call back to the 32-bit mode program, and
finally allow the 32-bit mode program to call back again to the
Windows binary (i.e. Windows callbacks). In each case, the arguments
being passed wil have to be pulled from the appropriate stack and
loaded on to the other stack (there will be a 16 bit and a 32 bit
stack). Finally some application specfic DLL libraries will have to
be loaded, and dynamic linking will have to be performed.

b) The second part of the finished product is an emulation
library, which takes calls to Windows functions, and somehow
translates these into calls to X11 in one fashion or another, so that
equivalent functionality is achieved.

It should be pointed out that the Windows binary will be
running directly - there will be no need for machine level emulation
of the instructions. Sun has reported better performance with their
version of WABI than is actually achieved under MS-Windows -
theoretically the same result is possible under linux.

The project got started as a result of discussions on
comp.os.linux in early June of 1993. A mail channel was set up for
discussions, and this directory was created. At the moment, all of
the files that are uploaded are in the private directory in a hidden
directory. The reason for this is that the program is really only of
use to developers right now. Once something is ready for public
consumption, it will be uploaded to a publicly visible directory.
The final product will almost certainly be under the GNU Public License
(or GPL for short).

If you are interested in getting involved in this project,
join the linux activists' WABI channel. Also, I will do my best to
answer any question mailed to me. My address is "b...@amscons.com".

***************************************************************

Status Report - August 4, 1993

The loader portion is nearing completion. Sample Windows
binaries are loaded correctly into memory, dynamicly linked and so
forth. The 16/32 bit call interface is fairly complete. There are
still a few features that remain to be added before it can be
considered "done", but it is at the point where it is actually useful.
Resource loading and software interrupt handling is still not done.

A very minimal version of the emulation library has been
merged with the loader. Windows can be created, DC's may be used,
bitmaps are partially handled, text drawing is implemented, and
a preliminary implementation of menus has been created.

-Bob
---
Another random extraction from the mental bit stream of...
Byron A. Jeff - PhD student operating in parallel!
Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 Internet: by...@cc.gatech.edu

Rasmus Lerdorf

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Aug 25, 1993, 3:30:57 PM8/25/93
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by...@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff) writes:

>> My qestion is about the WINDOWS API emulator on UNIX-clone systems.
>>I've heard that Sun's WABI, MS-WINDOWS API emulator on Solaris, made it
>>possible to use MS-WINDOWS software on UNIX systems.

>I'd say Solaris systems, not Unix in general.

No, I would have to agree with the original poster. Unix in general will
be using Wabi (by the way, it's Wabi, not WABI. Sun insists it is not
an acronym for Windows Application Binary Interface).

I was at an IBM Developers' conference in San Francisco earlier this week
and played with a PowerPC box running AIX with a full implementation of
Wabi. I ran MS-Word, Excel, and PowerPoint along with the WinTach
Windows benchmark program. The benchmark which tests standard word processor,
spreadsheet and graphical operations returned a value of about 65. That
means that the Window programs running under Wabi run about 65 times faster
on a PowerPC compared to a 386DX-20 with standard VGA.

With SCO, HP, IBM, and most significantly Novell and USL endorsing Wabi, I would
say that Wabi will apply to Unix in general. Actually, IBM had its own
Wabi-like project underway when Sun announced Wabi. IBM decided to join
Sun in future developments and they will be incorporating some of the IBM
work into it. COSE is also endorsing Wabi. You can't get much better
acceptance than that.

--
Rasmus Lerdorf Multiuser Nutec Corporation
Product Manager Serial GUI Experts 2685 Marine Way Suite 1319
+1 415 988-9781 - Nutec Desktop Mountain View, CA. 94043
FAX: +1 415 988-9782 - Nutec Toolkit internet: ras...@nutec.com

David C. Niemi

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Aug 25, 1993, 4:10:42 PM8/25/93
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In article 7...@netcom.com, rler...@netcom.com (Rasmus Lerdorf) writes:
>by...@cc.gatech.edu (Byron A Jeff) writes:
>
>>> My qestion is about the WINDOWS API emulator on UNIX-clone systems.
>>>I've heard that Sun's WABI, MS-WINDOWS API emulator on Solaris, made it
>>>possible to use MS-WINDOWS software on UNIX systems.
>
>>I'd say Solaris systems, not Unix in general.
>
>No, I would have to agree with the original poster. Unix in general will
>be using Wabi (by the way, it's Wabi, not WABI. Sun insists it is not
>an acronym for Windows Application Binary Interface).

Right. Sun says:
1) Wabi is not an acronym.
2) Even if Wabi WERE an acronym, it most especially would NOT stand for
Windows Application Binary Interface.

The official Wabi 1.0 should be trickling in for me to look at any week now.

>I was at an IBM Developers' conference in San Francisco earlier this week
>and played with a PowerPC box running AIX with a full implementation of
>Wabi. I ran MS-Word, Excel, and PowerPoint along with the WinTach
>Windows benchmark program. The benchmark which tests standard word processor,
>spreadsheet and graphical operations returned a value of about 65. That
>means that the Window programs running under Wabi run about 65 times faster
>on a PowerPC compared to a 386DX-20 with standard VGA.

Wow, Wabi on AIX already! That is pretty exciting, and that is quite a
WinTach score! Has IBM been working on it for a while, and only just announced
it, or can Wabi be ported to new UN*Xes trivially????

It will also be very interesting to see how Wabi on Intel machines and various
brands of UN*X that support Wabi compare to
1) Win3.1
2) Windows NoT
in performance! If it performs even remotely as well, I'd say that points to
Windows being very inefficiently coded relative to X-Windows.

>With SCO, HP, IBM, and most significantly Novell and USL endorsing Wabi, I would
>say that Wabi will apply to Unix in general. Actually, IBM had its own
>Wabi-like project underway when Sun announced Wabi. IBM decided to join
>Sun in future developments and they will be incorporating some of the IBM
>work into it. COSE is also endorsing Wabi. You can't get much better
>acceptance than that.

Yeah, it would be nice if it was free! But Wine is coming along nicely,
at least as long as Bob Sanders keeps getting bored and implementing more
and more of it. And Wabi should help get Winders vendors interested in
preserving compatibility with non-Microsoft environments (except Microsoft,
of course, which will surely try to break Wabi every time the have a new
release of one of their apps).

DCN

---
David C. Niemi: David...@oasis.gtegsc.com

I have seen th' darkness an' th' pain, Griffy...
I have frolicked in th' Devil's Themepark...I have lain down with dawgs...


Howlin' Bob

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Aug 25, 1993, 5:17:42 PM8/25/93
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nie...@oasis.gtefsd.com (David C. Niemi) writes:

>Yeah, it would be nice if it was free! But Wine is coming along nicely,
>at least as long as Bob Sanders keeps getting bored and implementing more

Bob Amstadt is the guy running the Wine project. I'm the guy who occasionally
gets bored and adds more to dosemu.

--
Robert Sanders
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt8134b
Internet: gt8...@prism.gatech.edu

Rasmus Lerdorf

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Aug 25, 1993, 6:53:28 PM8/25/93
to
nie...@oasis.gtefsd.com (David C. Niemi) writes:

>Wow, Wabi on AIX already! That is pretty exciting, and that is quite a
>WinTach score! Has IBM been working on it for a while, and only just announced
>it, or can Wabi be ported to new UN*Xes trivially????

I don't know how trivial it is. The impression I got speaking to the IBM
engineers was that it was quite easy. But, I am sure IBM had the Wabi
code long before even Sun announced it.

>Yeah, it would be nice if it was free! But Wine is coming along nicely,
>at least as long as Bob Sanders keeps getting bored and implementing more
>and more of it. And Wabi should help get Winders vendors interested in
>preserving compatibility with non-Microsoft environments (except Microsoft,
>of course, which will surely try to break Wabi every time the have a new
>release of one of their apps).

Actually, what I see here is something along the lines of what happened
to Microsoft back in the early days of MS-Dos. If you remember, Compaq
licensed the DOS code and came out with a new version that broke the
32Meg disk barrier. This became extremely popular in the DOS world and
Microsoft had to scramble to incorporate and support this Compaq feature
in order to stay competitive. So, in effect, MS lost partial design
control over their own environment. This will happen to Windows as well.
MS will not be able to maintain control forever. As other companies
invest money in creating Windows applications, these companies will be
dictating the future of the Windows API. If MS changes their basic
API structure they stand to lose a lot of business because 3rd party
developers may opt to not support these new MS changes and instead just
recommend using an older version of Windows, Wabi or any other Windows-like
environment. Apple will soon have its own Wabi and I am sure quite a few
of them will appear. MS will no longer be the only provider of Windows
just like they are not the only provider of DOS today.

James A Robinson

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Aug 25, 1993, 11:13:22 PM8/25/93
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rler...@netcom.com (Rasmus Lerdorf) writes:

>nie...@oasis.gtefsd.com (David C. Niemi) writes:

>>Wow, Wabi on AIX already! That is pretty exciting, and that is quite a
>>WinTach score! Has IBM been working on it for a while, and only just announced
>>it, or can Wabi be ported to new UN*Xes trivially????

>I don't know how trivial it is. The impression I got speaking to the IBM
>engineers was that it was quite easy. But, I am sure IBM had the Wabi
>code long before even Sun announced it.

Considering they had access to the Windows source code I can imagine it was
a bit easier for them then it will be for us.

Jim
ji...@world.std.com

Rick Slater

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Aug 26, 1993, 9:52:51 AM8/26/93
to
In a post to this newsgroup nie...@oasis.getfsd.com (David C. Niemi)
said:

...
dn> Right. Sun says:
dn> 1) Wabi is not an acronym.
dn> 2) Even if Wabi WERE an acronym, it most especially would NOT stand for
dn> Windows Application Binary Interface.
...

Now, I find that post (and several others) to be of interest in view of the
following quote: "Formally announced in May, but previewed late last year,
WABI acutally stands for (Microsoft) Windows Application Binary Interface ..."
SunWorld, June 1993, p 22. There is also a similar statement in the
April issue of SUnWorld.

It comes down to this: I have a magazine in front of me which claims WABI
stands for what we all thought it did. I only have statements (from folks
I don't know) that Sun says "it ain't so". I'll choose to continue to
believe SunWorld until one of you can document your assertions. -- Rick

Message has been deleted

Rick Slater

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Aug 26, 1993, 1:53:56 PM8/26/93
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sa> In article <25if7j$6...@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> you write:

rs> It comes down to this: I have a magazine in front of me which claims WABI
rs> stands for what we all thought it did. I only have statements (from folks
rs> I don't know) that Sun says "it ain't so". I'll choose to continue to
rs> believe SunWorld until one of you can document your assertions. -- Rick

sa> SunWorld is not Sun Microsystems or any of its planets or moons.
sa> It licences a trademark, has some Sun advisors, but obtains its own
sa> copy.

SunWorld is one hell of a lot more credible than posts to a news group
by a person or persons essentially unknown to the reader. :)

sa> Being circumspect about MicroSoft's claim to own the word "Windows", both
sa> MIT's X Consortium and Sun avoid the use of that word in their official
sa> publications.

And I still don't see any documentation of those assertions. Therefore,
I'll continue to doubt the veracity of such claims. -- Rick

Jason Hitesman

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Aug 26, 1993, 2:22:20 PM8/26/93
to

In a previous article, b...@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) says:


>If you really insist on my digging up paperwork, it can be done --- next time
>I get to the office; I'm working at a customer site and may not get in to the
>office until next month sometime. But Sun has told us (I work for a Sun VAR)
>that it's *not* an acronym. Moreover, none of the sales literature they've
>sent us mentions the acronym --- it just talks about "Wabi".

Well I don't have any paperwork to support it but I have talked Face to
Face with a sun representitive who told me "Wabi does not stand for
anything". He then went on to explain that they did want it to stand for
Windows Application Binary Interface. but their lawyers told them they
better not.

P.S. this rep was giving a presentation for NASA at the time so I doubt
that he just made it up..

P.P.S He went on to to add that there was a group inside of SUN who wanted
to call the project Windows Application Binary Interface Technology. That
way they could call it WABIT...

So there you go, the word as I have it from SUN directly, you don't have to
believe me but then again you don't have to believe that the earth is round
if you don't want to..

-Jason Hitesman, ag...@cleveland.freenet.edu

Gregory Gulik

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Aug 26, 1993, 4:36:11 PM8/26/93
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In article <25gh02$f...@europa.eng.gtefsd.com> nie...@oasis.gtefsd.com writes:
>
>It will also be very interesting to see how Wabi on Intel machines and various
>brands of UN*X that support Wabi compare to
>1) Win3.1
>2) Windows NoT
>in performance! If it performs even remotely as well, I'd say that points to
>Windows being very inefficiently coded relative to X-Windows.

There was a front page article in InfoWorld in the last week or two
that said that Windows applications run approximately 75% slower under
Windows NT than under native Windows 3.1

On the other hand, there was another article a while ago in a magazine
I don't remember, that said that Wabi ran applications about twice as
fast as native Windows 3.1. The magazine used two identical 486/50's
for the comparison. One running Windows 3.1, the other Solaris 2.1
and Wabi.

Please let me know if I missed anything as this is all from memory.

-greg

--
Gregory A. Gulik Call Gagme, a public access
gr...@serveme.chi.il.us UNIX system at 312-282-8606
|| gu...@rtsg.mot.com For information, drop a note
to in...@gagme.chi.il.us

Rasmus Lerdorf

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Aug 27, 1993, 2:58:02 AM8/27/93
to
In a previous article, b...@kf8nh.wariat.org (Brandon S. Allbery) says:

>If you really insist on my digging up paperwork, it can be done --- next time
>I get to the office; I'm working at a customer site and may not get in to the
>office until next month sometime. But Sun has told us (I work for a Sun VAR)
>that it's *not* an acronym. Moreover, none of the sales literature they've
>sent us mentions the acronym --- it just talks about "Wabi".

Ok kids... I work right in the middle of about 5 trillion Sun buildings
here in Mountain View and I know a bunch of people in the company. Here
is the official Wabi (note the capitalization - or lack of it) announcement
from the SunFlash mailing list.

By the way, if you are patient enough to read through this, you will see
that Sun didn't actually invent this thing. It was acquired from another
company.

By the way, I am not surprised that the Sun magazine got it wrong. Reporters
are renowned for screwing up even the simplest term. Actually, this whole
discussion is rather pointless, don't you think? But since people asked:

===[cut]===
sunflash-Distributed to mailing list sunflash-ca
sunflash-Send requests and problem reports to flas...@sun.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Florida SunFlash

Sun Introduces Wabi - Allows MS-Windows Apps To Run Under UNIX

SunFLASH Vol 53 #x May 1993
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
This issue of SunFlash has three Sun press releases about SunSelect's
Wabi technology. (Note - Wabi is not an acronym.). -johnj
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
SunSoft To Copackage Wabi With Solaris

Sun Introduces Wabi - Allows MS-Windows Apps To Run Under UNIX

SunSelect Proposes Public Interface For MS-Windows Apps

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: SunSoft To Copackage Wabi With Solaris

Contact: Laura Ramsey, +1 415/336-0739
Contact: Emily Cohen, Hi-Tech Communications at +1 (415) 904-7000
SunSoft: +1 510-460-3267

Windows Applications To Run On Solaris

MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., May 5, 1993 -- SunSoft, Inc. today announced
that it will copackage SunSelect's Wabi technology with the Solaris
software environment, enabling users to run Windows applications with
no performance compromise. The Wabi technology was recently
demonstrated running Microsoft Excel, Microsoft Word and Microsoft
PowerPoint for Windows on Solaris at SunSoft's Annual Solaris Developer
Conference.

"Wabi coupled with Solaris gives users the best of both worlds -- the
power of UNIX with the range of Microsoft applications," said Edward
J. Zander, president of SunSoft. "Now users can run their spreadsheet
on Wabi and their business on Solaris."

Solaris users will initially be able to run key Windows applications
that account for about two-thirds of the applications sold in the PC
market. These include Lotus 1-2-3 for Windows, Lotus AmiPro, Microsoft
Word for Windows, Microsoft Excel, Microsoft PowerPoint, Microsoft
Project for Windows, WordPerfect for Windows, Harvard Grahics for
Windows from Software Publishing Corp., Aldus Pagemaker, PROCOMM PLUS
for Windows from Datastorm Technologies, Inc., CorelDraw, and Paradox
for Windows from Borland International, and the complete set of
Microsoft Windows 3.1 accessories. Wabi will be certified to run
additional applications later in the year.

SunSoft will begin a promotional offer for Wabi this month. Customers
of Solaris for x86 and Solaris 2.2 for SPARC will receive a coupon with
their product redeemable for the Wabi technology at no extra cost. The
offer will extend through December. In addition, the Wabi technology
will also be copackaged with SunSoft's INTERACTIVE UNIX product line by
the end of the year. INTERACTIVE UNIX is SunSoft's product targeted at
the low end multiuser x86 marketplace.

SunSoft's Solaris environment is designed to combine the features of
high performance computing -- such as multiprocessing, multithreading,
installation, administration and network security -- with the
ease-of-use of personal computers, making it the rightsizing solution
of choice for global enterprises. It is available on the highest volume
RISC and CISC architectures, SPARC and x86, and will soon be delivered
on the new PowerPC platform. More than 7,500 32-bit applications -- the
largest base in the world -- run on Solaris today.

Product inquiries should be directed to SunSoft at 510-460-3267 in the
United States and to local SunSoft offices in Europe and Asia.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Sun Introduces Wabi - Allows MS-Windows Apps To Run Under UNIX

Contact: Beth Byer, SunSelect +1 (508) 442-0271
Contact: Kathryn Lang Hi-Tech at +1 (415) 904-7000
Contact: Larry Lytle, USL at +1 (908) 552-5186

SUNSELECT INTRODUCES WABI SOFTWARE, BRINGING MICROSOFT(R) WINDOWS
APPLICATIONS INTO THE UNIX(R) SYSTEM ENVIRONMENT

USL, SCO and SunSoft to implement technology;
USL forms co-development partnership with SunSelect

CHELMSFORD, May 5, SunSelect, the PC integration business of Sun
Microsystems, Inc., today introduced the first technology that allows
Microsoft. Windows applications to run directly on UNIX.-based PCs and
workstations at full performance without the need for MS-DOS. or
Microsoft Windows itself. Named Wabi, the software gives UNIX system
users the ability to run the most popular Microsoft Windows
applications on the most powerful open network computing environment.

"The Wabi technology represents a giant step in making UNIX broadly
acceptable to the commercial marketplace," said Dave Power, general
manager of SunSelect. "For the first time, users can run their favorite
Microsoft Windows applications at full speed while still accessing the
rich resources of the UNIX environment."

SunSelect will license Wabi to leading UNIX operating system vendors.
Companies planning to implement Wabi as a part of their respective UNIX
system offerings include UNIX System Laboratories (USL), The Santa Cruz
Operation (SCO) and SunSoft.

SunSelect has formed a co-development agreement with USL to build key
components of the Wabi technology. "We are making a major engineering
commitment to this project, and view Wabi as a key element of our UNIX
strategy," said Don McGovern, vice president of USL. "The technology
dramatically advances open systems by enabling customers to take
advantage of both their Microsoft Windows and UNIX system applications,
without depending on a single vendor."

In addition, several other vendors, including Toshiba, Fujitsu Limited,
NCD, Tadpole Technology, and Quarterdeck Office Systems, have endorsed
Wabi as a way to broaden the choice of software available to their
customers.

Wabi is based on technology acquired by SunSelect from Praxsys
Technologies, Inc. (Norwood, Mass.) in September 1992. SunSelect has
also entered into an agreement with Bitstream Inc. (Cambridge, Mass.),
under which SunSelect will license Bitstream's font handling technology
to make a large selection of TrueType fonts available to Wabi vendors.
As a result, Wabi users will have the same access as Microsoft Windows
users to Bitstream's library of more than 600 scalable TrueType fonts.


>From Microsoft Windows to X Windows

The Wabi software will enable UNIX system users to run Microsoft
Windows applications right out of the box. Additionally, those
applications become part of the UNIX as easily accessible as any UNIX
allowing users to cut and paste text between Microsoft Windows and UNIX
applications. For example, information queried from a UNIX-based
database management system or received via an email message can be
incorporated within a presentation document created with Microsoft
PowerPoint. or CorelDRAW!.. The user simply utilizes the cut-and-paste
facility built into X Windows, the open systems standard for displaying
graphical elements on networked computers and terminals.

While other products permit Microsoft Windows applications to run under
the UNIX system, they do so by running MS-DOS and Microsoft Windows in
an emulation environment, a feat that requires considerable system
resources, reducing application performance. By contrast, Wabi
translates the function calls made by a Microsoft Windows application
into those recognizable by X Windows. This approach consumes much less
processing power, permitting Microsoft Windows applications to run with
no compromise in performance.


Support for leading Microsoft Windows applications

Major application vendors, including Lotus Development Corporation,
Borland International, WordPerfect Corporation, and Corel Corporation,
have recognized the Wabi product as an innovative way to make their
Microsoft Windows applications available to new users.

"Wabi is a strong bridge between UNIX and Microsoft Windows, and
broadens customer's options, allowing end-users to run desktop
applications like 1-2-3. for Windows and Lotus Freelance Graphics on a
wider range of platforms," said Jim Manzi, president and chief
executive officer of Lotus Development Corporation.

The most popular Microsoft Windows applications on the market are being
certified to run on Wabi. These programs, which together represent
about two-thirds of all Microsoft Windows applications sold, include
Lotus 1-2-3 for Windows, Lotus AmiPro, Microsoft Word for Windows,
Microsoft Excel., Microsoft PowerPoint, Microsoft Project for Windows,
WordPerfect. for Windows, Harvard Graphics for Windows from Software
Publishing Corporation, Aldus PageMaker., PROCOMM PLUS for Windows from
Datastorm Technologies, Inc., CorelDRAW!., Paradox. for Windows and
Quattro Pro for Windows from Borland. International, Inc., as well as
the complete set of Microsoft Windows 3.1 accessories.


Ongoing certification program

SunSelect, USL and other partners will continue to test and certify
other Microsoft Windows packages for the Wabi environment. To increase
the library of applications compatible with the Wabi software,
SunSelect is establishing a self- certification program for
developers. Through the program, available in June, developers can
receive a free preview copy of Wabi, enabling them to conduct
compatibility testing during the course of application development.
SunSelect and its partners will also work with developers to make Wabi
as broadly compatible as possible.


Availability and pricing

SunSelect will make release 1.0 of Wabi available to its licensing
partners this summer. Each vendor will announce its own plans for
packaging, pricing, and availability.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: SunSelect Proposes Public Interface For MS-Windows Apps

Contact: Beth Byer, SunSelect +1 (508) 442-0271
Contact: Kathryn Lang, Hi-Tech +1 (415) 904-7000

SUNSELECT PROPOSES PUBLIC INTERFACE FOR MICROSOFT(R) WINDOWS APPLICATIONS

Users, Manufacturers, Software Vendors Join in
Supporting Public Windows Interface


CHELMSFORD -- May 5, 1993 -- In keeping with the philosophy of open
systems technology, SunSelect, a Sun Microsystems, Inc. business, today
proposed creating a specification called the Public Windows Interface
(PWI) to bring the Microsoft Windows application programming interface
(API) into the public domain. The idea of a PWI specification as the
foundation for industry innovation is broadly supported by computer
system vendors, independent software vendors (ISVs) and end users,
including American Airlines, Borland International, Corel Corporation,
Hewlett-Packard Company, ICL, Network Computing Devices Inc., Norwegian
Telecom, Quarterdeck Office Systems, Sun Microsystems Computer
Corporation, SunSoft, Tadpole Technology, The Foxboro Company, The
Santa Cruz Operation, Inc., UNIX System Laboratories, Inc., and
WordPerfect Corporation.

The goal of creating PWI is to define a standard API for Microsoft
Windows. With a defined standard, applications and tools can be
developed that will enable the users of systems based on multiple
operating systems to directly run the almost 5,000 existing Microsoft
Windows applications today. The PWI concept will be submitted to open
systems organizations with the goal of creating PWI as an industry
standard. Further, SunSelect has examined the recent industry movement
to the common open software environment processes, and believes that
PWI is well aligned with these processes. SunSelect welcomes
participation of others in accelerating the initial PWI specification
into an industry standard.

"Microsoft Windows is the most popular application programming
interface on desktops today. Changes to the API, which affect thousands
of ISVs and millions of users, should be made through an open process,"
said Scott McNealy, chief executive officer of Sun Microsystems, Inc.
"By establishing PWI as a standard, developers will have an open forum
to debate the programming interfaces they would like to see included in
the future."

SunSelect proposed that the initial specification for PWI be based on
the Microsoft Windows application interfaces published by Microsoft and
additional components of the Microsoft Windows API used in popular
software products. The specification could be enhanced over time as
ISVs, systems vendors and end users evolve the PWI specification in a
public forum.

Benefits for ISVs and End Users

"The shackles are broken," said Roel Pieper, president and CEO of UNIX
System Laboratories. "And that's great news for customers. Bringing
Microsoft Windows into the open systems arena will foster innovation,
and result in many new products. Most important, PWI will be a public
standard enabling customers to achieve their enterprise client-server
objectives by combining Microsoft Windows with UNIX for a compatible
and stable application environment."

For ISVs and end users writing high-powered business applications, the
native UNIX environment will continue to provide the richest set of
tools and features. PWI would enrich UNIX and other operating systems
by providing an API for personal productivity applications. Together
PWI and a robust operating system provide the complete solution for
today's competitive business environment.

"Borland believes that all computer languages should be available for
implementation by any party, as evident by our participation in
creating a dBASE( language standard," said Philippe Kahn, chairman and
CEO, Borland International. "The PWI initiative headed by SunSelect is
a necessary step in broadening the standards effort from languages to
user interfaces, and Borland both applauds and supports this effort."

For developers and end users alike, the widespread availability of
PWI-compliant applications will leverage their existing investments in
software and training. End users also benefit from a PWI because it
protects their investment by giving them an active voice in the
products they want to buy. Similarly, OEMs are endorsing the PWI
proposal because it provides a stable platform for customers, allowing
new markets to be opened.

"The adoption of PWI as a public standard will bring the benefits of
open technologyQinnovation, competition, choice to the world of desktop
productivity applications," said Helge Vinje, Section Chief of
Norwegian Telecom.

SunSelect, in a separate, but related announcement, today announced its
Wabi product, which is intended to be an implementation of a PWI
standard.

(c)1993 Sun Microsystems, Inc.
SPARC is a registered trademark of SPARC International, Inc.

Solaris, Sun Microsystems, Sun, SunSelect, SunSoft, the Sun logo, the
SunSelect logo, Wabi are trademarks or registered trademarks of Sun
Microsystems, Inc.

Aldus is a trademark and PageMaker is a registered trademark of Aldus
Corp. All other products or service names mentioned herein are
trademarks of their respective owners. Borland and Paradox are
registered trademarks, and Quatro Pro is a trademark of Borland
International, Inc. CorelDRAW! is a trademark of Corel Corporation.
Harvard Graphics and Software Publishing Corporation are registered
trademarks of Software Publishing Corporation. Lotus and 1-2-3 are
registered trademarks and AmiPro is a trademark of Lotus Development
Corporation. Microsoft, MS-DOS, Excel and PowerPoint are registered
trademarks of Microsoft Corporation. PROCOMM PLUS is a trademark of
DATASTORM TECHNOLOGIES, INC. TrueType is a trademark of Apple
Computer, Inc. WordPerfect is a registered trademark of WordPerfect
Corporation.

UNIX is a registered trademark of UNIX System Laboratories, Inc.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For information send mail to info-s...@Sun.COM.
Subscription requests should be sent to sunflash...@Sun.COM.
Archives are on solar.nova.edu, ftp.uu.net, sunsite.unc.edu,
src.doc.ic.ac.uk and ftp.adelaide.edu.au

All prices, availability, and other statements relating to Sun or third
party products are valid in the U.S. only. Please contact your local
Sales Representative for details of pricing and product availability in
your region. Descriptions of, or references to products or publications
within SunFlash does not imply an endorsement of that product or
publication by Sun Microsystems.

Send brief articles (e.g. third party announcements) and include contact
information (non-800#, fax #, email, etc) to:
John McLaughlin, SunFlash editor, fl...@Sun.COM. +1 305 351 4909

Matthias Urlichs

unread,
Aug 27, 1993, 12:49:15 AM8/27/93
to
In comp.os.linux.misc, article <25gh02$f...@europa.eng.gtefsd.com>,

nie...@oasis.gtefsd.com writes:
>
> Right. Sun says:
> 1) Wabi is not an acronym.
> 2) Even if Wabi WERE an acronym, it most especially would NOT stand for
> Windows Application Binary Interface.
3) And if you actually believe any of the above, I have this fine bridge to
sell. ;-)

> >With SCO, HP, IBM, and most significantly Novell and USL endorsing Wabi, I would
> >say that Wabi will apply to Unix in general. Actually, IBM had its own
> >Wabi-like project underway when Sun announced Wabi. IBM decided to join
> >Sun in future developments and they will be incorporating some of the IBM
> >work into it. COSE is also endorsing Wabi. You can't get much better
> >acceptance than that.
>
> Yeah, it would be nice if it was free! But Wine is coming along nicely,
> at least as long as Bob Sanders keeps getting bored and implementing more
> and more of it. And Wabi should help get Winders vendors interested in
> preserving compatibility with non-Microsoft environments (except Microsoft,
> of course, which will surely try to break Wabi every time the have a new
> release of one of their apps).
>

Fortunately, they can't -- if they depend on any undocumented internals,
the program (a) won't run under NT or whatever, which has a somewhat
different internal structure, assuming that the marketing hype is based
on fact by more than abut 5%, and (b) they barely got out of some heavy-
handed antitrust legal action -- as far as I know, it was alleged that
MS programs used undocumented features of MS operating systems...

--
Matthias Urlichs -- url...@smurf.sub.org -- Phone: NONE; use email or lose.
Schleiermacherstrasse 12 -- 90491 Nuernberg -- Germany || Linux+Mac Consulting

Chris Waters

unread,
Aug 27, 1993, 4:45:45 AM8/27/93
to
In <rlerdorfC...@netcom.com> rler...@netcom.com (Rasmus Lerdorf) writes:

>This issue of SunFlash has three Sun press releases about SunSelect's
>Wabi technology. (Note - Wabi is not an acronym.). -johnj

Ok, so Sun is now proclaiming (in public, at least) that Wabi is not an
acronym. However, we all still know what the acronym stands for! :-)

For those of us in the user community, the threat of Microsquishy
winning their appeal to have the word "Windows" trademarked is mostly
irrelevant. But perhaps the Linux group should consider calling their
version of Wabi "WAW" ("WAW ain't Windows(tm)"). This would preserve
the grand old tradition of recursive acronyms, and would also be a good
nose-thumbing at the sorry gits in Redmond.

Just an idea....
--
Chris Waters | "By experimentation, I have found that if I stand still and
xt...@netcom.COM| spin a universe around me, I get dizzy." -- W. Allison

Alastair Neil

unread,
Aug 27, 1993, 6:19:58 AM8/27/93
to
In article 7...@serveme.chi.il.us, gr...@serveme.chi.il.us (Gregory Gulik) writes:
->In article <25gh02$f...@europa.eng.gtefsd.com> nie...@oasis.gtefsd.com writes:
->>
->>It will also be very interesting to see how Wabi on Intel machines and various
->>brands of UN*X that support Wabi compare to
->>1) Win3.1
->>2) Windows NoT
->>in performance! If it performs even remotely as well, I'd say that points to
->>Windows being very inefficiently coded relative to X-Windows.
->
->There was a front page article in InfoWorld in the last week or two
->that said that Windows applications run approximately 75% slower under
->Windows NT than under native Windows 3.1

what does 75% slower mean? it runs at .25 the speed or .75 the speed?
Logically if should be the former - but I find it hard to believe that NT
is *that* bad.

reductio ad absurdam -> what is 100% slower?

->
->On the other hand, there was another article a while ago in a magazine
->I don't remember, that said that Wabi ran applications about twice as
->fast as native Windows 3.1. The magazine used two identical 486/50's
->for the comparison. One running Windows 3.1, the other Solaris 2.1
->and Wabi.
->
->Please let me know if I missed anything as this is all from memory.
->
->-greg
->
->--
->Gregory A. Gulik Call Gagme, a public access
-> gr...@serveme.chi.il.us UNIX system at 312-282-8606
-> || gu...@rtsg.mot.com For information, drop a note
-> to in...@gagme.chi.il.us


---
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|..Alastair Neil.......(44)-0(206-872861).......[a...@plasparc3.essex.ac.uk]...|
|....Visne scire quod credam? Credo luctationes omnes praestitutas esse!......|
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Arnaldo Mandel

unread,
Aug 27, 1993, 8:06:37 AM8/27/93
to
In article <xtifrCC...@netcom.com> xt...@netcom.com (Chris Waters) writes:

> For those of us in the user community, the threat of Microsquishy
> winning their appeal to have the word "Windows" trademarked is mostly
> irrelevant. But perhaps the Linux group should consider calling their
> version of Wabi "WAW" ("WAW ain't Windows(tm)"). This would preserve
> the grand old tradition of recursive acronyms, and would also be a good
> nose-thumbing at the sorry gits in Redmond.

WAW!

I hope the Wine team takes the suggestion seriously.



--
..................................................................
Arnaldo Mandel \ a...@ime.usp.br (1st choice)
Computer Science Dep. \ ama...@cce.usp.br (2nd)
Universidade de S\~{a}o Paulo / mac...@fpsp.fapesp.br
S\~{a}o Paulo - SP - Brazil / (if all else fails)

Charles Hedrick

unread,
Aug 27, 1993, 2:54:06 PM8/27/93
to
sla...@gandalf.nrlssc.navy.mil (Rick Slater) writes:

>SunWorld is one hell of a lot more credible than posts to a news group
>by a person or persons essentially unknown to the reader. :)

Sun did initially announce the acronym. I recall reading in the Sun
newsgroups that Sun was advised by their lawyers that it was a
mistake. Recent announcements from Sun have not referred to it as an
acronym. It is spelled Wabi, not WABI -- as it would be if it were an
acronym. The notes say simply that Wabi is a trademark of Sun.

I think SunWorld is simply out of date. Magazines have fairly
long leadtimes.

David C. Niemi

unread,
Aug 27, 1993, 3:51:58 PM8/27/93
to
In article 93Aug2...@mafalda.ime.usp.br, a...@ime.usp.br (Arnaldo Mandel) writes:
>In article <xtifrCC...@netcom.com> xt...@netcom.com (Chris Waters) writes:
>
>> For those of us in the user community, the threat of Microsquishy
>> winning their appeal to have the word "Windows" trademarked is mostly
>> irrelevant. But perhaps the Linux group should consider calling their
>> version of Wabi "WAW" ("WAW ain't Windows(tm)"). This would preserve
>> the grand old tradition of recursive acronyms, and would also be a good
>> nose-thumbing at the sorry gits in Redmond.
>
>WAW!
>
>I hope the Wine team takes the suggestion seriously.

How about "Wine Is Not an Emulator"?

Warner Losh

unread,
Aug 26, 1993, 6:34:15 PM8/26/93
to
In article <25iv0s$f...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>

ag...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jason Hitesman) writes:
>P.P.S He went on to to add that there was a group inside of SUN who wanted
>to call the project Windows Application Binary Interface Technology. That
>way they could call it WABIT...

Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit. Just think of the marketing gimmoks
that Microsoft could use if it was called that :-)

Warner
--
Warner Losh i...@boulder.parcplace.COM ParcPlace Boulder
I've almost finished my brute force solution to subtlety.

Message has been deleted

Bob Amstadt

unread,
Aug 27, 1993, 11:21:00 PM8/27/93
to
In <25loku$3...@europa.eng.gtefsd.com> nie...@oasis.gtefsd.com (David C. Niemi) writes:

>In article 93Aug2...@mafalda.ime.usp.br, a...@ime.usp.br (Arnaldo Mandel) writes:
>>In article <xtifrCC...@netcom.com> xt...@netcom.com (Chris Waters) writes:
>>
>>> For those of us in the user community, the threat of Microsquishy
>>> winning their appeal to have the word "Windows" trademarked is mostly
>>> irrelevant. But perhaps the Linux group should consider calling their
>>> version of Wabi "WAW" ("WAW ain't Windows(tm)"). This would preserve
>>> the grand old tradition of recursive acronyms, and would also be a good
>>> nose-thumbing at the sorry gits in Redmond.
>>
>>WAW!
>>
>>I hope the Wine team takes the suggestion seriously.

>How about "Wine Is Not an Emulator"?

My orignal line of thinking was "winemu", but I didn't like that. Then
I thought of shortening it to "wine". This led me to think of "whine"
and "whinny". I liked "whine", but felt that it was too long.
--
Bob Amstadt
b...@amscons.com

Arthur Tateishi

unread,
Aug 28, 1993, 2:20:55 AM8/28/93
to
In article <CCE1D...@boulder.parcplace.com> i...@boulder.parcplace.com (Warner Losh) writes:
>In article <25iv0s$f...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
>ag...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jason Hitesman) writes:
>>to call the project Windows Application Binary Interface Technology. That
>>way they could call it WABIT...
>
>Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit. Just think of the marketing gimmoks
>that Microsoft could use if it was called that :-)

Yup. Bill could buy up Warner Bros. and remake the classic Elmer Fudd
cartoons saying "ooo, I'll get you, you wascally WABIT!" and have a
likeness of Bob and the rest of the Wine crew. Bill would make sure
Elmer wins.

Of course, we would all know who _really_ wins in the end.

arthur

--
"The first fact to face is that UNIX was not developed with security, in any
reliable sense, in mind; this fact alone guarantees a vast number of holes."
-- "On the Security of UNIX", Dennis M. Ritchie
Arthur Tateishi ruh...@turing.utoronto.ca

John Phillips

unread,
Aug 28, 1993, 6:15:50 AM8/28/93
to
In article <CCE1D...@boulder.parcplace.com> i...@boulder.parcplace.com writes:
>In article <25iv0s$f...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
>ag...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jason Hitesman) writes:
>>P.P.S He went on to to add that there was a group inside of SUN who wanted
>>to call the project Windows Application Binary Interface Technology. That
>>way they could call it WABIT...
>
>Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit. Just think of the marketing gimmoks
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>that Microsoft could use if it was called that :-)

What an awful idea. Please have more respect! You quote Elmer Fudd as
Siegfried (to music by Richard Wagner) in "What's Opera Doc?", the greatest
cartoon ever made.

That's all folks!
--
John Phillips
jo...@linux.demon.co.uk

Peter Mutsaers

unread,
Aug 28, 1993, 9:15:40 AM8/28/93
to
>> On Thu, 26 Aug 1993 03:13:22 GMT, j...@world.std.com (James A
>> Robinson) said:

JAR> Considering they had access to the Windows source code I can
JAR> imagine it was a bit easier for them then it will be for us.

Not so sure about that. If you look at such code (which must be
horrible) you are inclined more to work along the same lines. If you
don't have the code but concentrate only on the objective (the
system-call interface that must be made available) you are not
burdened with this and can make a fresh start.
--
_______________________________________________________________
Peter Mutsaers, Bunnik (Ut), the Netherlands.
Disclaimer: This reflects the official opinions of my employer.

Keith Smith

unread,
Aug 29, 1993, 3:42:19 PM8/29/93
to
>preserving compatibility with non-Microsoft environments (except Microsoft,
>of course, which will surely try to break Wabi every time the have a new
>release of one of their apps).

This becomes increasingly difficult as more code is written. They (MS)
cannot afford to break compatability with older releases of their own,
and if they DO people just plain won't buy it. Just as DOS 6 brought a
lot of people over, and then took them right back to DOS 5, Even a
percieved problem in this industry could cost millions. The more
the interface gets cloned the more they lose their distinction too. MS
may have to come up with something inovative here.
--
Keith Smith ke...@ksmith.com 5719 Archer Rd.
Digital Designs BBS 1-919-423-4216 Hope Mills, NC 28348-2201
Somewhere in the Styx of North Carolina ...

Gregory Gulik

unread,
Aug 27, 1993, 7:27:23 PM8/27/93
to
In article <14...@sersun1.essex.ac.uk> a...@resumix.portal.com writes:
>->
>->There was a front page article in InfoWorld in the last week or two
>->that said that Windows applications run approximately 75% slower under
>->Windows NT than under native Windows 3.1
>
>what does 75% slower mean? it runs at .25 the speed or .75 the speed?
>Logically if should be the former - but I find it hard to believe that NT
>is *that* bad.
>
>reductio ad absurdam -> what is 100% slower?

The rest of the article suggested that it meant that it tooks
75% longer to do things under Windows NT than under Windows 3.1

-greg

--

Gregory A. Gulik Call Gagme, a public access

|| gu...@rtsg.mot.com For information, drop a note

to in...@gagme.chi.il.us

f...@acm.org

unread,
Aug 30, 1993, 5:53:12 PM8/30/93
to
In article <CCE1D...@boulder.parcplace.com>, i...@boulder.parcplace.com (Warner Losh) writes:
{STUFF DELETED}

>>way they could call it WABIT...
>
>Kill the wabbit, kill the wabbit. Just think of the marketing gimmoks
>that Microsoft could use if it was called that :-)
>
>Warner

Or keep it the same with Wabi the Wobot!

(Couldn't resist!)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Fox | Don't ever describe the ocean | Opinions expressed
Unix System Manager | If you've never seen it | here are MINE. They
AMBAC Indemnity Corp. | Don't ever forget that you just | are not those of my
(203) 532-2828 | Might end up being wrong! | employer, my girl-
f...@acm.org | - Jimmy Buffett | friend, or my cat.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message has been deleted
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Michael Black

unread,
Jun 4, 2012, 10:09:46 AM6/4/12
to
On Sun, 3 Jun 2012, fua...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Wednesday, August 25, 1993 12:34:32 AM UTC-3, yamaguchi kouichirou wrote:
>> Hello dear Linuxers.
>>
So google is broken again and it's back to allowing replies to old
messages? They had that problem once before, which cause vandalism of old
threads like the one where Linus informs the world of Linux, but they
fixed it, after complaints.

This is the second time in the last week or so that I've noticed that
someone has replied to a really old thread (it's obvious initially since I
don't remember the subject header, so I check) and of course the second
time that it was indeed from google.

Michael

telsar

unread,
Jun 6, 2012, 4:18:26 PM6/6/12
to
On Wednesday, August 25, 1993 3:34:32 AM UTC, yamaguchi kouichirou wrote:
> Hello dear Linuxers.
>
> I have a question. Excuse me if there were some similar questions
> in the past, but at least I couldn't find any similar question or answer
> in the FAQ list.
>
> My qestion is about the WINDOWS API emulator on UNIX-clone systems.
> I've heard that Sun's WABI, MS-WINDOWS API emulator on Solaris, made it
> possible to use MS-WINDOWS software on UNIX systems.
>
> Usually I make some data on Linux and reboot my PC and then
> feed them to the Mathematika for WINDOWS. It's very tedious procedure.
> I think it will save much my time if something like WABI were available
> on Linux. It may be very meritorious if many MS-WINDOWS programmes were
> executable on Linux like on OS/2.
>
> I would like to know if some development projects for
> MS-WINDOWS emulator on Linux like dosemu ( or winemu ?) are going on
> now or not. If it so, by making japanese localized version of winemu,
> it might be possible to execute some japanese localized Windows programs
> like MS-WORD, MS-EXCEL, e.t.c.
>
> I think it may be very hard task to make winemu comparing
> with dosemu, since the number of API of Windows are many times larger
> than that of DOS. It will need much person-power to accomplish such
> project like winemu.
>
> Thanks in advance for any comments.
>
> --
> Koichiro Yamaguchi @ Mukoyama LABO, Institute for Chemical Research,
> Kyoto University, Uji-shi, 611 JAPAN.
> E-mail: koic...@elec.kuicr.kyoto-u.ac.jp


Perhaps it may make sense to run vmware on your Linux and have a XP vm machine which is actually running windows and all your applications native within Linux, so you do not have to reboot into windows anymore. Looks like you already have proper windows licensing, anyway.

vmware has a 1 month trial for its workstation product you could try. They also have a vm player for free, which may solve your problem.

You could also run a Linux vm from within windows and do it all the other way, too.

--
Steal a little go to prison, steal a lot and become King.

J G Miller

unread,
Jun 6, 2012, 4:45:06 PM6/6/12
to
On Wed, 06 Jun 2012 13:18:26 -0700, telsar wrote:

> On Wednesday, August 25, 1993 3:34:32 AM UTC, yamaguchi kouichirou wrote:
^^^^
||||

> Perhaps it may make sense to run vmware on your Linux ...

Sadly your reply came almost 19 years too late.

Michael Black

unread,
Jun 6, 2012, 11:01:15 PM6/6/12
to
On June 3rd, someone already replied to the post from 1993. I replied,
suggesting google has broken again, allowing for replies to old posts,
since the posters are both from google. It almost looks like this one
went back and looked, a "me too".

Michael

telsar

unread,
Jun 8, 2012, 4:18:22 PM6/8/12
to
Yes, GG is a wonderful thing. I should have known from the question and lack of any vm'ish answers....

It really does suck that ISPs no longer provide usenet servers as they once did. GG is my only option now as I am too cheap to pay, too lazy for free trials, and too honest to ....

J G Miller

unread,
Jun 8, 2012, 5:07:01 PM6/8/12
to
On Friday, June 8th, 2012, at 13:18:22h -0700, Telsar explained:

> It really does suck that ISPs no longer provide usenet servers as they once did.
> GG is my only option now as I am too cheap to pay, too lazy for free trials, and too honest to ....

Have you not considered Eternal September news server which requires no payment?

<http://www.eternal-september.ORG/>

There is another well known free news server aioe but that is the
preferred choice of trolls and spamsters because of the almost total
lack of management at that server.

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