Any news on PowerMac Linux port ?

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Tony Jones

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Dec 21, 1994, 6:19:52 PM12/21/94
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Is the PowerMac port of Linux still on hold, or did the two students get any
help from Apple ?

Quite why Apple won't help is beyond me, it's not as though they have
their own competing PowerMac UNIX [and based on MacBSD [68k] I doubt Tenon is
lobbying Apple against it].
I would have thought that having a Linux port might actually sell more
hardware. Clearly I have little chance of ever working in Apple's marketing
department.
Plus any future UNIX from Apple is likely be CHRP/PREP targetted.

If anyone knows:
a) better place to get up-to date info on the port
b) where in Apple to send e-mail/snail mail complaining

let me know

thanks

tony

Gregory Propf

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Dec 22, 1994, 1:45:58 AM12/22/94
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Tony Jones (to...@RTD.COM) wrote:
: Is the PowerMac port of Linux still on hold, or did the two students get any
: help from Apple ?

: Quite why Apple won't help is beyond me, it's not as though they have
: their own competing PowerMac UNIX [and based on MacBSD [68k] I doubt Tenon is
: lobbying Apple against it].

Tony, sorry to say but there is much bad blood between Apple and the GNU
people that created many of the system utilities (including the compiler)
on the Linux/Unix implementation. It seems Apple has one of those endless
stupid lawsuits going to get rid of competing systems that have a "look
and feel" anything like Apple's. I guess that could mean they will try to
convince some judge that Xwindows should be banned because it looks like System
7! Well, the point is, the GNU people aren't supporting Apple and Apple isn't
supporting them. Sad, because, as you say, they could probably sell more
hardware by marketing the PowerPC as a Unix box...

Greg Propf

RobGreene

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Dec 22, 1994, 5:30:12 PM12/22/94
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Actually, there has been a questionnaire going around about a development
of a PowerPC based Linux system - but I believe it is non-Mac specific.

What's really humorous about Apple's stupid lawsuits is that THEY
originally 'stole' the GUI idea from Xerox!! I enjoy using the Mac - not
as powerful (read as 'fast') as Windows, but so much more elegant - Apple
CEO's tend to be a bunch of idiots. [Note that I am currently on AOL via a
PowerMac too. Better front-end than my Gateway 486/Windows!]

D.R. Smith

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Dec 28, 1994, 12:01:45 AM12/28/94
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In article <3db7b6$g...@news.umbc.edu> pr...@zeus.towson.edu (Gregory Propf) writes:
>Tony, sorry to say but there is much bad blood between Apple and the GNU
>people that created many of the system utilities (including the compiler)
>on the Linux/Unix implementation. It seems Apple has one of those endless
>stupid lawsuits going to get rid of competing systems that have a "look
>and feel" anything like Apple's. I guess that could mean they will try to
>convince some judge that Xwindows should be banned because it looks like System
>7! Well, the point is, the GNU people aren't supporting Apple and Apple isn't
>supporting them. Sad, because, as you say, they could probably sell more
>hardware by marketing the PowerPC as a Unix box...
>
>Greg Propf

Just some interesting history - the Mac OS's predecessor is a Xerox
developed GUI - in fact Xerox was the first company to create a GUI for
a computer. That same predecessor is the predecessor to X as well. If
anyone should be upset over look and feel it's Xerox - Apple has nothing
to complain about since they were the first to copy another company's
idea. Sounds rather hipocritical to me.

I am told all of this is documented in some book on the Mac - I haven't
read it personally, so if there are any errors in the above, please
point them out.

Darrin


--
drs...@ultb.isc.rit.edu

"The only interfaces which are truly intuitive are rocks and mud"
- John Dvorak

Lee Larson

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Dec 28, 1994, 10:08:14 AM12/28/94
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In article <1994Dec28.0...@ultb.isc.rit.edu>,

drs...@ultb.isc.rit.edu (D.R. Smith) wrote:

> Just some interesting history - the Mac OS's predecessor is a Xerox
> developed GUI - in fact Xerox was the first company to create a GUI for
> a computer. That same predecessor is the predecessor to X as well. If
> anyone should be upset over look and feel it's Xerox - Apple has nothing
> to complain about since they were the first to copy another company's
> idea. Sounds rather hipocritical to me.
>
> I am told all of this is documented in some book on the Mac - I haven't
> read it personally, so if there are any errors in the above, please
> point them out.
This claim keeps reappearing. The Xerox computer in question is the Star. I have used a Xerox Star, and its interface bears about as much resemblance to the Mac (or Lisa) interface as a Model T does to a Porsche.

This canard about the Star keeps reappearing whenever Apple and GNU appear in the same sentence. I just think Stallman, et al. don't like Macs for some reason. After all, they didn't proscribe Intel when it went after the cloners of the 80x86 chips, or the Pentium.
--
Lee Larson Department of Mathematics University of Louisville
lmla...@homer.louisville.edu tel:(502)852-6826 fax:(502)852-7132

Clyde Coffey

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Dec 28, 1994, 6:19:27 PM12/28/94
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In article <lmlars01-281...@llarson.math.louisville.edu>,

Lee Larson <lmla...@homer.louisville.edu> wrote:
>In article <1994Dec28.0...@ultb.isc.rit.edu>,
>drs...@ultb.isc.rit.edu (D.R. Smith) wrote:
>
>> Just some interesting history - the Mac OS's predecessor is a Xerox
>> developed GUI - in fact Xerox was the first company to create a GUI for
>> a computer. That same predecessor is the predecessor to X as well. If
>> anyone should be upset over look and feel it's Xerox - Apple has nothing
>> to complain about since they were the first to copy another company's
>> idea. Sounds rather hipocritical to me.

>This claim keeps reappearing. The Xerox computer in question is the Star.

>I have used a Xerox Star, and its interface bears about as much resemblance
>to the Mac (or Lisa) interface as a Model T does to a Porsche.

You might have a point if Apple had sued Microsoft, for using the
Mac interface. It didn't. It sued because Windows has icons, mouse pointer,
windows, etc. Things Apple claimed as its own. These were first developed
by Xerox. BTW, this isn't specifically about the Star computer, but about
a loose collection of ideas that make up what we think of as GUI's.

>This canard about the Star keeps reappearing whenever Apple and GNU appear
>in the same sentence. I just think Stallman, et al. don't like Macs for some
>reason.

Not Macs, just Apple. Apple thinks that vague ideas for software should be
ownable. Like if the first developer of a computer spreadsheet could tell
everyone else they had no right to make spreadsheet because it is the first
guy's "intellectual property". That's absurd, and very damaging to progess.
What is infinitely more absurd is the second guy saying the same thing.

>After all, they didn't proscribe Intel when it went after the cloners of
>the 80x86 chips, or the Pentium.

Whether intel's cases had merit or not, they are not at all like Apple.
intel made the first microprocessor. To my knowledge, intel never claimed
the microprocessor as its intellectual property and said no one else could
make them. Also GNU has never been against right of developers. Read the
copyleft from any GNU package.

--
--30--

cl...@netcom.com

Stuart R. Harper

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Dec 29, 1994, 11:13:16 AM12/29/94
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In article <clydeD1...@netcom.com>, cl...@netcom.com (Clyde Coffey) wrote:

>
>>This claim keeps reappearing. The Xerox computer in question is the Star.
>>I have used a Xerox Star, and its interface bears about as much resemblance
>>to the Mac (or Lisa) interface as a Model T does to a Porsche.
>
>You might have a point if Apple had sued Microsoft, for using the
>Mac interface. It didn't. It sued because Windows has icons, mouse pointer,
>windows, etc. Things Apple claimed as its own. These were first developed
>by Xerox. BTW, this isn't specifically about the Star computer, but about
>a loose collection of ideas that make up what we think of as GUI's.

No Apple sued Microsoft primarily for expanding Windows (2.x I think) to
use GUI elements from the Apple that where not covered by an older
lincensing agreement.

I also recall that Apple won that case but was awarded nothing in damages...

--
Stuart R. Harper 27-132/COE/Drexel U. stu...@lorelei.ece.drexel.edu http://e4tech1.ece.drexel.edu/StuartH.html
"I'm a drunk-driver on the information super-highway." - Scott Bertch

Eugene Tyurin

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Dec 29, 1994, 2:53:39 PM12/29/94
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In today issue of The NY Times there's an article that Power Mac
clones will be on the market by the middle of the next year. Apple
licensed cloning to some guy that used to work for the Leading
Edge. The promise to make them cheap, so I guess we better have
Linux port by that time. :^)

Just as a footnote: the only thing I have against RISC technology
is that the size of all the executables increases. For example,
on our SGI: pine goes for 1.5 Mb, Emacs for 2 Mb (both ELF).
Compare this to the Linux executables and think about the urgent
need for Gb hard disks.

Happy New Year!

--
Eugene Tyurin, Inst. for Theoretical Physics - Stony Brook Univ.
WWW: http://www.physics.sunysb.edu:80/~gene/plan.html
Internet: ge...@dio.physics.sunysb.edu
Those who don't understand Unix are doomed to reinvent it, poorly.

Kevin Goldstein

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Dec 30, 1994, 2:02:39 AM12/30/94
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In article <3dv443$4...@adam.cc.sunysb.edu> ge...@dio.physics.sunysb.edu (Eugene Tyurin) writes:


>Just as a footnote: the only thing I have against RISC technology
>is that the size of all the executables increases. For example,
>on our SGI: pine goes for 1.5 Mb, Emacs for 2 Mb (both ELF).
>Compare this to the Linux executables and think about the urgent
>need for Gb hard disks.

It's just a guess, but it looks to me right now like the per meg
price of disk drives is dropping faster than the rate at which software is
ballooning, whether because of "featuritis", the move from 16- to 32-bit code,
or from CISC to RISC machines. Hard to believe.

ke...@kg.com

Hannu Krosing

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Dec 30, 1994, 8:59:26 AM12/30/94
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ge...@dio.physics.sunysb.edu (Eugene Tyurin) wrote:
>
> Just as a footnote: the only thing I have against RISC technology
> is that the size of all the executables increases. For example,
> on our SGI: pine goes for 1.5 Mb, Emacs for 2 Mb (both ELF).
> Compare this to the Linux executables and think about the urgent
> need for Gb hard disks.
>

I think the same thing (more instructions to accomplish some thing)
will make RISC processors _slower_ in the long run because when you can
make a processor execute one (or more) instructions per cycle then
the one whose instructions do more will be faster.
Personally I am looking forward to V(ery)CISCs which would execute
some vhll.

------------------------------
Hannu Krosing / ha...@estib.ee

Jim Nance

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Dec 30, 1994, 10:21:56 AM12/30/94
to
> ge...@dio.physics.sunysb.edu (Eugene Tyurin) wrote:
>
> I think the same thing (more instructions to accomplish some thing)
> will make RISC processors _slower_ in the long run because when you can
> make a processor execute one (or more) instructions per cycle then
> the one whose instructions do more will be faster.
> Personally I am looking forward to V(ery)CISCs which would execute
> some vhll.

I think the whole idea behind RISC was that to make a processor
execute at least 1 instruction/clock you need fairly simple
instructions.

Jim

Jurgen Botz

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Dec 30, 1994, 11:51:50 AM12/30/94
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In article <3e13nu$j...@horos.kbfi.ee>, Hannu Krosing <ha...@estib.ee> wrote:

>ge...@dio.physics.sunysb.edu (Eugene Tyurin) wrote:
>I think the same thing (more instructions to accomplish some thing)
>will make RISC processors _slower_ in the long run because when you can
>make a processor execute one (or more) instructions per cycle then
>the one whose instructions do more will be faster.
>Personally I am looking forward to V(ery)CISCs which would execute
>some vhll.

It ain't gonna happen... or rather it already did and is history (i.e.
Lisp machines, P-Code machine for Modula 2 and Pascal, etc.)

The mainstay CPUs and many PPUs will use RISC-style instruction sets
for many years to come. Some people are now tinkering with something
they call "VLIW" very-long instruction word, but that's just a whole
bunch of RISC instructions in a single word for parallel execution.
The idea behind VLIW is that the compiler can do more of the
optimization (instruction scheduling, parallelization) so the CPUs can
become simpler again. But all of this just confirms the trend toward
very simple "atomic" instructions at the hardware level, and complex
translators (optimizing compilers) at the software level.

Jay Vollmer

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Dec 31, 1994, 7:54:51 PM12/31/94
to

Actually, the only truly intuitive interface is the nipple.


--
J.C. Vollmer (Clot Boulot)| Apart from the pulling and hauling
Je suis revolutionnaire | stands what I am.
twos...@ferris.cray.com | --Walt Whitman

D.R. Smith

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Jan 2, 1995, 3:50:49 PM1/2/95
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In article <lmlars01-281...@llarson.math.louisville.edu> lmla...@homer.louisville.edu (Lee Larson) writes:
>In article <1994Dec28.0...@ultb.isc.rit.edu>,
>drs...@ultb.isc.rit.edu (D.R. Smith) wrote:
>
>> Just some interesting history - the Mac OS's predecessor is a Xerox
>> developed GUI - in fact Xerox was the first company to create a GUI for
>> a computer. That same predecessor is the predecessor to X as well. If
>>
>> I am told all of this is documented in some book on the Mac - I haven't
>> read it personally, so if there are any errors in the above, please
>> point them out.

In article <lmlars01-281...@llarson.math.louisville.edu> lmla...@homer.louisville.edu (Lee Larson) writes:
>This claim keeps reappearing. The Xerox computer in question is the Star. I have used a Xerox Star, and its interface bears about as much resemblance to the Mac (or Lisa) interface as a Model T does to a Porsche.
>
>This canard about the Star keeps reappearing whenever Apple and GNU appear in the same sentence. I just think Stallman, et al. don't like Macs for some reason. After all, they didn't proscribe Intel when it went after the cloners of the 80x86 chips, or the Pentium.
>--
>Lee Larson Department of Mathematics University of Louisville
>lmla...@homer.louisville.edu tel:(502)852-6826 fax:(502)852-7132

I understand your point of view - I have used star systems as well,
and I agree that System 7.5 is very dissimilar to a star. However, I
should ask what is the oldest version of the Mac OS you have used? It can
be seen that as we look at the older versions of the Mac OS, that the
similarities become greater and greater. We should remember to compare
10 year old technology to 10 year old technology - not the latest and
greatest.

Joern Rennecke

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Jan 3, 1995, 2:03:25 AM1/3/95
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kev...@primenet.com (Kevin Goldstein) writes:

Unfortunately, this has not been true for RAM prices in the last year.
This makes 64 bit pointers extremely costly too.

Joern Rennecke

Tom West

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Jan 5, 1995, 2:26:13 PM1/5/95
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Jay Vollmer <twos...@ferris.cray.com> wrote:

>D.R. Smith writes:
>> "The only interfaces which are truly intuitive are rocks and mud"
>> - John Dvorak

> Actually, the only truly intuitive interface is the nipple.

Spoken by someone who has never seen a minutes-old baby try to feed :-)

(Or whose mind has blotted the experience out...)

Johannes Endres

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Jan 12, 1995, 8:50:49 AM1/12/95
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Nothing more than in the subject line.

--
/Johannes Endres

Benutzerberatung im Rechenzentrum der Universitaet Muenster
SNAIL: Einsteinstrasse 60, D-48149 Muenster, Germany
EMAIL: end...@uni-muenster.de

Matthew Cravit

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Jan 16, 1995, 11:21:56 AM1/16/95
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In article <3db7b6$g...@news.umbc.edu>, strange alien beings caused Gregory Propf (pr...@zeus.towson.edu) to write:

> supporting them. Sad, because, as you say, they could probably sell more
> hardware by marketing the PowerPC as a Unix box...

From what I hear, they will be -- with the new PReP compliant
PowerMacs due out next year. Only problem -- your choices for Unix
will be AIX or Solaris :( -- (For some reason, Apple has decided, at
least from what I heard, not to update A/UX for the PowerPC).

/Matthew

--
Matthew Cravit N9VWG | "After all is said and done,
DePaul University | more is said than done."
Chicago, IL 60614 | -- Author Unknown
crav...@interaccess.com http://www.interacces.com/users/cravitma

Hamish Marson

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Jan 16, 1995, 4:06:32 PM1/16/95
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Matthew Cravit (crav...@flowbee.interaccess.com) wrote:
> In article <3db7b6$g...@news.umbc.edu>, strange alien beings caused Gregory Propf (pr...@zeus.towson.edu) to write:

> > supporting them. Sad, because, as you say, they could probably sell more
> > hardware by marketing the PowerPC as a Unix box...

> From what I hear, they will be -- with the new PReP compliant
> PowerMacs due out next year. Only problem -- your choices for Unix
> will be AIX or Solaris :( -- (For some reason, Apple has decided, at
> least from what I heard, not to update A/UX for the PowerPC).

And you call this a problem?


--
======================================================================
| Hamish Marson |
| Systems Programmer | |
| Computer Services | INTERNET h.ma...@waikato.ac.nz |
| University of Waikato | PHONE +64 7 8562889 xt 8181 |
| New Zealand | FAX +64 7 8384066 |
===========Disclaimer :- Remember. You heard it here first.===========

Mark Hendriks

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Jan 16, 1995, 10:51:41 PM1/16/95
to
>> From what I hear, they will be -- with the new PReP compliant
>> PowerMacs due out next year. Only problem -- your choices for Unix
>> will be AIX or Solaris :( -- (For some reason, Apple has decided, at
>> least from what I heard, not to update A/UX for the PowerPC).

> And you call this a problem?

Despite the fact that IBM and Sun are among the major suppliers of Unix, some
people won't be happy until MPF* Unix is available for PPC. Don't worry folks,
eventually, all 387 flavours of Unix will eventully be available for PPC.

*MPF = My Personal Flavour


#------------------------------ Mark H. Hendriks ------------------------------#


|\ |\ |
_ _ || || | o
/|/ |/ | ||__ ||__ __ _ __| .__.
| | | |/ \ |/ \ |__| /|/ | / | | | | @napier.uwaterloo.ca
| | |_/| |_/| |_/\___/ | |_/|_/|_/ |_/|

-- He was born, he grew up, he learned to code.
-- Not necessarily in that order.
#------------------------------ Mark H. Hendriks ------------------------------#

C. Scott Ananian

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Jan 16, 1995, 2:42:45 PM1/16/95
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In article <3fe6f4$e...@nntp.interaccess.com> crav...@interaccess.com writes:
>In article <3db7b6$g...@news.umbc.edu>, strange alien beings caused Gregory Propf (pr...@zeus.towson.edu) to write:
>
>> supporting them. Sad, because, as you say, they could probably sell more
>> hardware by marketing the PowerPC as a Unix box...
>
>From what I hear, they will be -- with the new PReP compliant
>PowerMacs due out next year. Only problem -- your choices for Unix
>will be AIX or Solaris :( -- (For some reason, Apple has decided, at
>least from what I heard, not to update A/UX for the PowerPC).
[snip]
The choice to drop A/UX is part of the agreement between Apple and IBM
(you can read it online somewhere on http://www.ibm.com/
As part of the deal signed, IBM makes hardware for MacOS, and Apple
reciprocates by letting IBM make software (AIX) for Apple boxes.
--Scott

-.-. .-.. .. ..-. --- .-. -.. ... -.-. --- - - .- -. .- -. .. .- -.
C. Scott Ananian: cana...@princeton.edu/ Declare the Truth boldly and
64 Holder Hall, Rockefeller College / without hindrance.
Princeton University /META-PARRESIAS AKOLUTOS:Acts 28:31
(609) 258-9126 / "Life is complex:
PO Box 1318, Princeton, NJ 08544 / part real, part imaginary"
'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'


Damir Smitlener

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Jan 17, 1995, 6:22:44 PM1/17/95
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In article <D2J6q...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca>,
mhhe...@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Mark Hendriks) wrote:

> >> From what I hear, they will be -- with the new PReP compliant
> >> PowerMacs due out next year. Only problem -- your choices for Unix
> >> will be AIX or Solaris :( -- (For some reason, Apple has decided, at
> >> least from what I heard, not to update A/UX for the PowerPC).
>
> > And you call this a problem?
>
> Despite the fact that IBM and Sun are among the major suppliers of Unix, some
> people won't be happy until MPF* Unix is available for PPC. Don't worry
folks,
> eventually, all 387 flavours of Unix will eventully be available for PPC.
>
> *MPF = My Personal Flavour

Except that available-for-PPC does not necessarily equal
available-for-MacPPC, and therein lies a source of great frustration for
some.

Well, for me, anyway :-(

--
damir smitlener |
gt7...@prism.gatech.edu |
da...@is.net |

James McNalley

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Jan 17, 1995, 6:57:40 PM1/17/95
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Hamish Marson (ham...@thebes.waikato.ac.nz) wrote:

: Matthew Cravit (crav...@flowbee.interaccess.com) wrote:
: > In article <3db7b6$g...@news.umbc.edu>, strange alien beings caused Gregory Propf (pr...@zeus.towson.edu) to write:

: > > supporting them. Sad, because, as you say, they could probably sell more
: > > hardware by marketing the PowerPC as a Unix box...

: > From what I hear, they will be -- with the new PReP compliant
: > PowerMacs due out next year. Only problem -- your choices for Unix
: > will be AIX or Solaris :( -- (For some reason, Apple has decided, at
: > least from what I heard, not to update A/UX for the PowerPC).

: And you call this a problem?

I thought Apple dropped A/UX for 0x0 hardware 6 months ago or so, and mentioned
that there was no plan to bring it back for 0x0 or port it to PPC.

Peter Brewer

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Jan 19, 1995, 5:05:48 PM1/19/95
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In article <3f3c3p$n...@majestix.uni-muenster.de>,

Johannes Endres <end...@uni-muenster.de> wrote:
>Nothing more than in the subject line.
>
>--

They gave up. The school in Maine dropped funding for
the project. They are graduating. Best bet is NetBSD or
MacBSD from the Alice out of Virginia Polytechnic.

Although, one could conceivably reverse engineer the
systems in France without fear of legal repercussions. :-)

-- peter

Steve Kanefsky

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Jan 20, 1995, 1:56:28 PM1/20/95
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In article <3fhlhk$e...@odin.cc.pdx.edu>,


Actually, they've released a fairly significant upgrade (3.1) and a minor
upgrade (3.1.1) within the last 6 months, but they haven't added support
for any new Macs (including 680x0 Macs) since the Q800. The only machine
they officially test the new versions on is the Workgroup Server 95, but
they haven't removed support for any Macs that A/UX previously supported.
So while it still works fine on most Mac II's, Quadras, and the SE/30, it
doesn't and never will run on the Q660AV, Q840AV, Q605, Q630, IIvx, LC's,
Performas, Classics, PowerBooks, etc.

--
Steve Kanefsky

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