black screen after updating from MX 19.4 patito feo to MX 21 wildflower

[Soviet_Mario]

after "some" graphics showup (splash screen) but before
login ... the screen gets black
the HDD shows some activity and the underground boot "seems"
to complete.
The system is responsive to altgr prtscn + RSEISUB keys


how can I diagnose and possibly solve ?


another fact : I mad the dist-upgrade in two steps

after changing the repos from buster to bullseye and adding
another new MX repo, I had made

first APT UPGRADE
then APT FULL-UPGRADE

Both showed no error / two "minor" errors (gstreamer package).

update-initramfs was self performed
(no grub update, and I did not think about manually perform
an update-grub, alas)

The selected kernel installed over 4.19 was 5.10

well, at boot, on selecting recovery mode (which has no
proper recovery option) shows only 4.19 and no trace of 5.10
.... maybe this is due of the lack of a grub-update step ?


I have WildFlower in a LIVE version too, but how to fix the
installed copy on the PC ?

tnx


--
1) Resistere, resistere, resistere.
2) Se tutti pagano le tasse, le tasse le pagano tutti
Soviet_Mario - (aka Gatto_Vizzato)

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 25/11/2021 à 06:47, Soviet_Mario a écrit :
>
> after "some" graphics showup (splash screen) but before login ... the
> screen gets black
> the HDD shows some activity and the underground boot "seems" to complete.
> The system is responsive to altgr prtscn + RSEISUB keys

Looks like a graphic driver issue.
Can you reach a text console with Ctrl+Alt+F1/F2/F3... ?
What happens if you boot in recovery mode ?

> (no grub update, and I did not think about manually perform an
> update-grub, alas)

update-grub should have been run during the kernel upgrade.

> The selected kernel installed over 4.19 was 5.10
>
> well, at boot, on selecting recovery mode (which has no proper recovery
> option) shows only 4.19 and no trace of 5.10 .... maybe this is due of
> the lack of a grub-update step ?

Maybe. Is the kernel 5.10 really installed ?

[Soviet_Mario]

Il 25/11/21 09:44, Pascal Hambourg ha scritto:

> Le 25/11/2021 à 06:47, Soviet_Mario a écrit :
>>
>> after "some" graphics showup (splash screen) but before
>> login ... the screen gets black
>> the HDD shows some activity and the underground boot
>> "seems" to complete.
>> The system is responsive to altgr prtscn + RSEISUB keys
>
> Looks like a graphic driver issue.
> Can you reach a text console with Ctrl+Alt+F1/F2/F3... ?

I tried the F1 or F2 combinations, but not F3 (which I did
not know)

> What happens if you boot in recovery mode ?

nothing particular, the same outcome in similar time, no
"failsafe" graphics mode is avail

just SysVInit vs SystemD modes are available, I tried both
and none solved the issue

>
>> (no grub update, and I did not think about manually
>> perform an update-grub, alas)
>
> update-grub should have been run during the kernel upgrade.

do you mean manually ? If so, I forgot this step

>
>> The selected kernel installed over 4.19 was 5.10
>>
>> well, at boot, on selecting recovery mode (which has no
>> proper recovery option) shows only 4.19 and no trace of
>> 5.10 .... maybe this is due of the lack of a grub-update
>> step ?
>
> Maybe. Is the kernel 5.10 really installed ?

dunno, how should I know in a BLIND mode ? in grub menu it
does not show up.

I am quite a lot suspicious of graphics since even in
Virtual Box MX copies of patito feo, some update broke the
screen too.


what could I do with "external" tools like a LIFE distro ?

for example, how to try to switch Intel <=> Nouveau driver ?
I dunno which one was installed befor the distro-upgrade,
but if I was able to work from the outside I'd try "the other".

[166p1]

On 11/25/21 12:47 AM, Soviet_Mario wrote:
>
> after "some" graphics showup (splash screen) but before login ... the
> screen gets black
> the HDD shows some activity and the underground boot "seems" to complete.
> The system is responsive to altgr prtscn + RSEISUB keys
>
>
> how can I diagnose and possibly solve ?
>
>
> another fact : I mad the dist-upgrade in two steps
>
> after changing the repos from buster to bullseye and adding another new
> MX repo, I had made
>
> first APT UPGRADE
> then APT FULL-UPGRADE
>
> Both showed no error / two "minor" errors (gstreamer package).
>

Did you APT UPDATE before APT UPGRADE ?

If not, the new repos may not have "taken", so to speak.

I've also run into some debates whether you should have
BOTH Buster and BullsEye in apt sources during an upgrade.
BullsEye, at least initially, wasn't entirely "complete"
and a version upgrade would encounter missing dependencies
and crash in the middle, trashing things entirely.

Also, MX (this laptop is MX) sometimes has screen brightness
issues. After an update mine was almost completely black.
There WAS a display, but so weak it could barely be seen.
The usual GUI settings did NOT fix it. However I could
use the brighter-darker keyboard buttons to turn it up
to where you could just see it. I'd have to retrace my
steps, some very obscure file has to be reset AT BOOT,
every time, to get the desired brightness.

MX also hates my touchpad ... been tweaking at that for
a month. It's "better", but still too many phantom
taps. Latest tweaks to synaptic.conf regarding palm
detection and z-axis sensitivity have been the most
help.

I've been tempted to go to Lubuntu or Mint with LXDE
on top, but MX does offer a lot of neat stuff you
don't find in other distros - including utility to
create a custom distro on your box and save it to
an ISO for installation elsewhere that actually works.

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 25/11/2021 à 16:47, Soviet_Mario a écrit :
> Il 25/11/21 09:44, Pascal Hambourg ha scritto:
>

>> What happens if you boot in recovery mode ?
>
> nothing particular, the same outcome in similar time, no "failsafe"
> graphics mode is avail
>
> just SysVInit vs SystemD modes are available, I tried both and none
> solved the issue

sysvinit vs systemd is just the init choice. I meant the "(recovery
mode)" entry in GRUB's "Advanced options for LMDE" submenu, which has
the "single" parameter in the kernel command line (press "e" to check).

>> update-grub should have been run during the kernel upgrade.
>
> do you mean manually ?

No, I meant automatically.

>> Is the kernel 5.10 really installed ?
>
> dunno, how should I know in a BLIND mode ? in grub menu it does not show
> up.

You use the GRUB shell (press "c") to look in the /boot directory. That
should do it :

ls $prefix/..

> for example, how to try to switch Intel <=> Nouveau driver ?

Why would you want to do this ? Each driver is for a different GPU
family. Do you have dual Intel+Nvidia GPUs ?

[Soviet_Mario]

Il 25/11/21 19:49, Pascal Hambourg ha scritto:

> Le 25/11/2021 à 16:47, Soviet_Mario a écrit :
>> Il 25/11/21 09:44, Pascal Hambourg ha scritto:
>>
>>> What happens if you boot in recovery mode ?
>>
>> nothing particular, the same outcome in similar time, no
>> "failsafe" graphics mode is avail
>>
>> just SysVInit vs SystemD modes are available, I tried both
>> and none solved the issue
>
> sysvinit vs systemd is just the init choice. I meant the
> "(recovery mode)" entry in GRUB's "Advanced options for
> LMDE" submenu, which has the "single" parameter in the
> kernel command line (press "e" to check).

I entered in the grub-config editing by mistake, immediately
realizing I was unable to understand anything (just noticed
the reference to 4.19 kernel version instead of 5.10). That
kind of intervention is by far too beyond my abilities.

>
>>> update-grub should have been run during the kernel upgrade.
>>
>> do you mean manually ?
>
> No, I meant automatically.

I should have remembered to do it manually, and beforehand
to refresh initramfs

>
>>> Is the kernel 5.10 really installed ?
>>
>> dunno, how should I know in a BLIND mode ? in grub menu it
>> does not show up.
>
> You use the GRUB shell (press "c") to look in the /boot
> directory. That should do it :
>
> ls $prefix/..
>
>> for example, how to try to switch Intel <=> Nouveau driver ?
>
> Why would you want to do this ? Each driver is for a
> different GPU family. Do you have dual Intel+Nvidia GPUs ?

just intel (not nvidia). I was comparing the default generic
driver to hardware specific one, assuming that one should be
better than the other.

I think (no proofs !) there is some problem in changing
video mode. During startup some graphic theme and a progress
bar DOES show up, but later it vanishes.

[Soviet_Mario]

Il 25/11/21 19:00, 166p1 ha scritto:

> On 11/25/21 12:47 AM, Soviet_Mario wrote:
>>
>> after "some" graphics showup (splash screen) but before
>> login ... the screen gets black
>> the HDD shows some activity and the underground boot
>> "seems" to complete.
>> The system is responsive to altgr prtscn + RSEISUB keys
>>
>>
>> how can I diagnose and possibly solve ?
>>
>>
>> another fact : I mad the dist-upgrade in two steps
>>
>> after changing the repos from buster to bullseye and
>> adding another new MX repo, I had made
>>
>> first APT UPGRADE
>> then APT FULL-UPGRADE
>>
>> Both showed no error / two "minor" errors (gstreamer
>> package).
>>
>   Did you APT UPDATE before APT UPGRADE ?

yes, sure, after renaming the REPOS, I performed the
database update.

>
>   If not, the new repos may not have "taken", so to speak.

Sure

>
>   I've also run into some debates whether you should have
>   BOTH Buster and BullsEye in apt sources during an upgrade.
>   BullsEye, at least initially, wasn't entirely "complete"
>   and a version upgrade would encounter missing dependencies
>   and crash in the middle, trashing things entirely.

dunno ... but MX is not plain Debian, it also has some
specific repo on its own, so dunno

>
>   Also, MX (this laptop is MX) sometimes has screen brightness
>   issues. After an update mine was almost completely black.

same as here (and also some as in some virtual machines
after some upgrades : luckily there I reversed the upgrade
restoring a former snapshot)

I really love MX aesthetically, but I must say I have always
had both screen problems and unpredictable system stuck.
Tonight, on a third other 11y-old machine where too I had
installed a fresh WILDFLOWER on a dedicaded disk, during sw
installation, a freezing crash. totally unresponsive.
Debian never crashes on that dual boot machine.

>   There WAS a display, but so weak it could barely be seen.
>   The usual GUI settings did NOT fix it. However I could
>   use the brighter-darker keyboard buttons to turn it up
>   to where you could just see it. I'd have to retrace my
>   steps, some very obscure file has to be reset AT BOOT,
>   every time, to get the desired brightness.
>
>   MX also hates my touchpad ... been tweaking at that for

and also hates the network cards of a really old NZ200 small
toshiba :\

>   a month. It's "better", but still too many phantom
>   taps. Latest tweaks to synaptic.conf regarding palm
>   detection and z-axis sensitivity have been the most
>   help.
>
>   I've been tempted to go to Lubuntu or Mint with LXDE

I love Mint LMDE (the pure debian version).

>   on top, but MX does offer a lot of neat stuff you

I agree, it ships with a lot of very tasty and friendly
utilities ... but out of 3 true machines and a virtual one,
it runs reliably on just ONE.
And it is a distro where I do not even do much
"experiments", just very normal usage.

On Debian I made all possible disasters, and somewhat it
absorbs the strikes.
Devuan too seems rocky, but I am experiencing problems
upgrading from beowulf to dedalus.
Maybe I'll open another 3D :\

>   don't find in other distros - including  utility to
>   create a custom distro on your box and save it to
>   an ISO for installation elsewhere that actually works.
>

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 25/11/2021 à 23:15, Andreas Kohlbach a écrit :
>
> There you might to want to become root to have full access to the
> system. Try entering
>
> sudo su

Please, no. This command is silly. To launch a root shell you can use
"su -l" if you have the root password or "sudo -s" or "sudo -i" if your
account has sudo powers.

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 26/11/2021 à 05:52, Soviet_Mario a écrit :
>>
>>> for example, how to try to switch Intel <=> Nouveau driver ?
>>
>> Why would you want to do this ? Each driver is for a different GPU
>> family. Do you have dual Intel+Nvidia GPUs ?
>
> just intel (not nvidia).

So there is no point in using the nouveau driver.

> I think (no proofs !) there is some problem in changing video mode.
> During startup some graphic theme and a progress bar DOES show up, but
> later it vanishes.

This must be the splash screen displayed by plymouth, so I assume the
graphic kernel driver (i915) works fine and the problem happens when
Xorg or Wayland starts.

By editing the GRUB menu entry, you can
- remove the splash scree to show more messages
- disable the graphic environment

To do this, at the GRUB menu
- press "e" to edit the main MX entry,
- move the cursor to the end of the line which starts with "linux",
- delete "splash"
- append "2"
- press F10 to boot.

This should lead to a text login screen in tty1.

[Aragorn]

On 26.11.2021 at 04:07, Andreas Kohlbach scribbled:

> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:25:20 +0100, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
> >
> > This should lead to a text login screen in tty1.
>

> Suppose Soviet Mario is new to Linux, he will lack (no offense) deeper
> knowledge of the Linux command line. Thus this proposal, otherwise
> helpful, will only add confusion.

He's not new to GNU/Linux, but he does have a habit of wanting to
leap before he can walk. ;)

--
With respect,
= Aragorn =

[Soviet_Mario]

Il 26/11/21 10:13, Aragorn ha scritto:

+1 for U

[Soviet_Mario]

Il 26/11/21 10:07, Andreas Kohlbach ha scritto:

> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:25:20 +0100, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
>>

>> This should lead to a text login screen in tty1.
>

> Suppose Soviet Mario is new to Linux, he will lack (no offense)

I cannot say I'm really "new" but I have zero or so
knowledge of the command line.

Tonight I bring at my fathers' a LIVE version and I put
aside home and other things before other

> deeper
> knowledge of the Linux command line.

so sadly true

> Thus this proposal, otherwise
> helpful, will only add confusion.
>

[Bobbie Sellers]

On 11/26/21 08:12, Soviet_Mario wrote:
> Il 26/11/21 10:07, Andreas Kohlbach ha scritto:
>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:25:20 +0100, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
>>>
>>> This should lead to a text login screen in tty1.
>>
>> Suppose Soviet Mario is new to Linux, he will lack (no offense)
>
> I cannot say I'm really "new" but I have zero or so knowledge of the
> command line.

No knowledge of the Command Line? Easily repaired, look around the
Internet,

>
> Tonight I bring at my fathers' a LIVE version and I put aside home and
> other things before other
>
>> deeper
>> knowledge of the Linux command line.
>
> so sadly true
>
>> Thus this proposal, otherwise
>> helpful, will only add confusion.
>>

bliss - brought to you by the power and ease of PCLinuxOS
and a minor case of hypergraphia

--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com

[Soviet_Mario]

Il 26/11/21 09:25, Pascal Hambourg ha scritto:

I owe you (and everybody) a long reply, hoping not to be too
confusing.
First of all, your suggestion was that self-confidency spur
I was missing, the first sand grain that provoked the
avalanche :D

Let me go back in time, when I first tried the DIST-UPGRADE
Mx19 => MX21

I manually edited the repos, and SOME of them (security
related) caused some error.

I made as I had read on internet, the classic
APT UPDATE then APT UPGRADE then APT FULL-UPGRADE

I got just a couple of errors, and I was very optimistic,
assuming every other thing had gone the right way, and not
even thinking about that FIRST couple of errors could have
prevented the upgrade to progress, but simply to abort (it
took so much time regardeless of errors that I really
thought it had updated everything at all)

the manual editing and removing of SPLASH screen, disclosed
the login prompt in fallback text mode.

Luckily I had recently faced sort of the same problems (but
non with blackscreen) upgrading another machine from BUSTER
to BULLSEYE.

There, for no particular reason at all, and not having read
about on the web, I tried the "ITERATION" cycle way.

The cycle was made of some

APT UPDATE --FIX-MISSING
APT FULL-UPGRADE
APT FIX-BROKEN-INSTALL
DPKG --configure -a

And by serendipity I discovered that at the very second
cycle, the number of pending, broken, or simply upgradable
package, HAD RAISED since the first partial attempt.
The number was still in the order of some hundredth in the
third cycle, and declined, until at maybe the 4th or 5th
cycle, it finally reached 0 upgradable 0 to remove 0 new to
install 0 broken 0 half-configured and so.


my temptative explanation is : the theory of the nearest
mountain, hiding the further and possibly higher remaining.
Maybe the partial n_th cycle enable some further packages to
be upgraded fulfilling the dependencies missing before.

during every cycle, I got repeated
*WARNING* I cannot open GTK Gnome-front end (display
manager) or similar.

a lot of GTK libraries had been possibly in half upgraded
status.

In the end I made an
INITRAMFS-UPDATE -U
and
GRUB-UPDATE

APT autoclean autoremove

REBOOT


The display manager got back to work again, even if until
reboot the warning had not disappeared.


After the full upgrade, I had some other a bit disagreable
surprises. Some expected : a few launchers in the XFCE
panels showed a cross icon, and their executable was no
longer existing (i.g. catfish must have been either
discontinued or moved in another position or changed name, I
have had no time to do this hunt yet) and some very strange
thing

the USB-MODEM (alcatel) ceased to work, since the NETWORK
MANAGER did not work no matter what.
also INXI -N said ETH0 interface : DOWN


I had the very bizarre idea to try to reboot bypassing
SysVInit (the default on MX) and use SystemD ... well, this
way the Network manager was working, and the connection
restored.

I dunno why SysVInit NOW is preventing Network Manager to
work properly (it had not been the case beforehands) while
SystemD recognizes it ...

but the most of the problem is solved.

The gist is : sometimes the update/upgrade must be repeated
many times, since in one sweep only many packages remain not
upgraded.

tnx for all suggestions, hope my experiment might be useful
to others as well

[166p1]

Older hardware is always a problem. Most distros start
cutting out the 'old' stuff to save space and complexity.
Your best bet is one of those small distros meant to be
run on old machines. You CAN turn a 'small' distro into
a full-sized one, of course.

>>    a month. It's "better", but still too many phantom
>>    taps. Latest tweaks to synaptic.conf regarding palm
>>    detection and z-axis sensitivity have been the most
>>    help.
>>
>>    I've been tempted to go to Lubuntu or Mint with LXDE
>
> I love Mint LMDE (the pure debian version).
>
>>    on top, but MX does offer a lot of neat stuff you
>
> I agree, it ships with a lot of very tasty and friendly utilities ...
> but out of 3 true machines and a virtual one, it runs reliably on just ONE.
> And it is a distro where I do not even do much "experiments", just very
> normal usage.
>
> On Debian I made all possible disasters, and somewhat it absorbs the
> strikes.

It's pretty tough. Probably why so many others use it
as their base.

> Devuan too seems rocky, but I am experiencing problems upgrading from
> beowulf to dedalus.
> Maybe I'll open another 3D :\

Devuan is interesting, but I don't think it has
a big enough development team to really get it
shipshape.

>
>>    don't find in other distros - including  utility to
>>    create a custom distro on your box and save it to
>>    an ISO for installation elsewhere that actually works.

Ah ... brightness fix ... in /etc/rc.local put :
echo 150 > /sys/class/backlight/amdgpu_bl0/brightness

This is for a Dell subnotebook but might be relevant
elsewhere.

I am not entirely happy with XFCE and added LXDE.

Mint is pretty good - my main box is Mint now. I did
undo some annoying "Ubuntisms" ... /etc/network/interfaces
works again (zero reason to change that old convention).
Gotta pull off some other garbage too. I don't use, or
even like, 'cloud' crap.

There may be some utility in installing KVM and putting
a basic copy of your current system in there as a VM.
THEN practice the update process on THAT and see if it
works or where/why it goes wrong. If you nuke it, just
replace it with a copy and try again.

Anyway, MX is my "go to" system most of the time. I just
plain like it. Apparently a lot of people do, it's still
number one on DistroWatch.

The closer 'buntu copies DO have one advantage - a much
smoother (though not infallible) distribution upgrade.
I put just WAY too many apps on a box to have to start
from scratch every time Deb goes up a version.

And the RPMs ... um, no, not really. Fedora is quite
poor. Centos has been murdered by IBM. I installed
an Oracle Linux VM the other day, but I don't know if
it's gotten the same downgrades as Centos yet. The
only good RPM distro is OpenSUSE - and it's very good,
very helpful, an all-around nice distro. Always has been.
A bit too bulky for a PI alas - but I *did* make it run
on one.

Arch, Gentoo ... just too much work. The BSD's have
their place however, esp for outward-facing servers.
Trying out GhostBSD and Dragonfly currently, but
Free/OpenBSD are still the rock solid standards.

[Soviet_Mario]

Il 27/11/21 05:41, 166p1 ha scritto:

> On 11/26/21 12:03 AM, Soviet_Mario wrote:
>> Il 25/11/21 19:00, 166p1 ha scritto:
>>> On 11/25/21 12:47 AM, Soviet_Mario wrote:
>>>>

CUT ALL

>
>   I am not entirely happy with XFCE and added LXDE.

me too I usually add LxDE (or if avail LxQT), to save some
ram on such poor machines

>
>   Mint is pretty good - my main box is Mint now. I did
>   undo some annoying "Ubuntisms" ... /etc/network/interfaces

since you need to de-ubuntize mint, why not give a try to
LMDE ? It is Linux Mint purely debianized.

The exact difference I dunno which could be, maybe slower
updating cycle (Debian is less frantic than Ubuntu), and
some lagging, but It no longer share ubuntu's repos, and
less emphasis on SNAP apps.

I tried the 3 release, in a VM, so I don't think I'll
upgrade it.

>   works again (zero reason to change that old convention).
>   Gotta pull off some other garbage too. I don't use, or
>   even like, 'cloud' crap.
>
>   There may be some utility in installing KVM and putting
>   a basic copy of your current system in there as a VM.
>   THEN practice the update process on THAT and see if it
>   works or where/why it goes wrong. If you nuke it, just
>   replace it with a copy and try again.
>
>   Anyway, MX is my "go to" system most of the time. I just
>   plain like it. Apparently a lot of people do, it's still
>   number one on DistroWatch.

it's sleek !
now it seems to also work with WiFi networking, deep
misteries ... I have done no further maintenance. It simply
awakened on the right foot :)

>
>   The closer 'buntu copies DO have one advantage - a much
>   smoother (though not infallible) distribution upgrade.
>   I put just WAY too many apps on a box to have to start
>   from scratch every time Deb goes up a version.
>
>   And the RPMs ... um, no, not really.

I had problems with Dragora updater, but likely due to my
zero-skill, and at last I resigned.
As long as it had worked, my impressions on Fedora 28-29 had
been good. Just a bit unfamiliar despite using XFCE.

> Fedora is quite
>   poor. Centos has been murdered by IBM. I installed
>   an Oracle Linux VM the other day, but I don't know if
>   it's gotten the same downgrades as Centos yet. The
>   only good RPM distro is OpenSUSE - and it's very good,
>   very helpful, an all-around nice distro. Always has been.
>   A bit too bulky for a PI alas - but I *did* make it run
>   on one.
>
>   Arch, Gentoo ... just too much work. The BSD's have
>   their place however, esp for outward-facing servers.
>   Trying out GhostBSD and Dragonfly currently, but
>   Free/OpenBSD are still the rock solid standards.

[Andreas Kohlbach]

On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:54:58 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>
> On 11/26/21 08:12, Soviet_Mario wrote:
>> Il 26/11/21 10:07, Andreas Kohlbach ha scritto:
>>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 09:25:20 +0100, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This should lead to a text login screen in tty1.
>>>
>>> Suppose Soviet Mario is new to Linux, he will lack (no offense)
>> I cannot say I'm really "new" but I have zero or so knowledge of the
>> command line.
>
> No knowledge of the Command Line? Easily repaired, look
> around the Internet,

Easier said than done. For someone using a GUI, be it Windows, Mac or
Linux, it's probably hard to dismiss the mouse. It would be helpful
though if a person used MS-DOS, CP/M or other command-line interfaces in
the past.
--
Andreas

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 27-11-2021, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> a écrit :
>
> Easier said than done. For someone using a GUI, be it Windows, Mac or
> Linux, it's probably hard to dismiss the mouse.

In fact, for some functionalities, like games or drawing, I agree it's
difficult to dismiss the mouse. And a lot of applications are very
difficult to use without a mouse. But, if you choose your WM and your
applications, there are a lot of possibilities.

For the VM, you have a lot of tilling Window Managers among which to
choose (just a few of them) :
<https://swaywm.org/>
<https://i3wm.org/>
<https://xmonad.org/>
<https://awesomewm.org/>
<https://dwm.suckless.org/>

For the web browser, you have plugins in Firefox, but you have dedicated
browsers, at least :
<https://qutebrowser.org/>
<https://nyxt.atlas.engineer/>

In fact, when your purpose is to write or read things, the mouse is very
easy to avoid, there is always something to help you. For other usages,
it can be tricky.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

[Pascal Hambourg]

Le 27/11/2021 à 19:29, Stéphane CARPENTIER a écrit :
> Le 27-11-2021, Andreas Kohlbach <a...@spamfence.net> a écrit :
>>
>> Easier said than done. For someone using a GUI, be it Windows, Mac or
>> Linux, it's probably hard to dismiss the mouse.
>
> In fact, for some functionalities, like games or drawing, I agree it's
> difficult to dismiss the mouse. And a lot of applications are very
> difficult to use without a mouse. But, if you choose your WM and your
> applications, there are a lot of possibilities.

The point is not to dismiss the mouse but to be able to use the command
line for tasks when no GUI is available. I use the mouse in command line
for copy and paste.

[166p1]

On 11/27/21 12:20 AM, Soviet_Mario wrote:
> Il 27/11/21 05:41, 166p1 ha scritto:
>> On 11/26/21 12:03 AM, Soviet_Mario wrote:
>>> Il 25/11/21 19:00, 166p1 ha scritto:
>>>> On 11/25/21 12:47 AM, Soviet_Mario wrote:
>>>>>
>
> CUT ALL
>>
>>    I am not entirely happy with XFCE and added LXDE.
>
> me too I usually add LxDE (or if avail LxQT), to save some ram on such
> poor machines
>
>>
>>    Mint is pretty good - my main box is Mint now. I did
>>    undo some annoying "Ubuntisms" ... /etc/network/interfaces
>
> since you need to de-ubuntize mint, why not give a try to LMDE ? It is
> Linux Mint purely debianized.

It's going to be many months before a LMDE based
on BullsEye will be available. LMDE is always
behind the curve alas.

> The exact difference I dunno which could be, maybe slower updating cycle
> (Debian is less frantic than Ubuntu), and some lagging, but It no longer
> share ubuntu's repos, and less emphasis on SNAP apps.
>
> I tried the 3 release, in a VM, so I don't think I'll upgrade it.
>
>>    works again (zero reason to change that old convention).
>>    Gotta pull off some other garbage too. I don't use, or
>>    even like, 'cloud' crap.
>>
>>    There may be some utility in installing KVM and putting
>>    a basic copy of your current system in there as a VM.
>>    THEN practice the update process on THAT and see if it
>>    works or where/why it goes wrong. If you nuke it, just
>>    replace it with a copy and try again.
>>
>>    Anyway, MX is my "go to" system most of the time. I just
>>    plain like it. Apparently a lot of people do, it's still
>>    number one on DistroWatch.
>
> it's sleek !
> now it seems to also work with WiFi networking, deep misteries ... I
> have done no further maintenance. It simply awakened on the right foot :)

Do they still make Mephis anymore ??? You can get Antix, a
pretty bare (but OK) distro, but has MX totally displaced
Mephis ? Antix makes a pretty good base for expansion, it's
like a really minimalized Debian with the crudest display
manager.

>>
>>    The closer 'buntu copies DO have one advantage - a much
>>    smoother (though not infallible) distribution upgrade.
>>    I put just WAY too many apps on a box to have to start
>>    from scratch every time Deb goes up a version.
>>
>>    And the RPMs ... um, no, not really.

Updates, esp version upgrades, are a problem for ALL
kinds of Linux/BSD. This is something where Winders
does much better.

Had a red hot Win-95 box - massive amount of memory for
the time. Brought it all the way to Vista before it was
just TOO damned slow/small. Everything worked.

> I had problems with Dragora updater, but likely due to my zero-skill,
> and at last I resigned.
> As long as it had worked, my impressions on Fedora 28-29 had been good.
> Just a bit unfamiliar despite using XFCE.

Sorry, no Fedora for me. That's a distro that has
gone to hell IMHO. I do remember Red Hat Linux ...
USED to be top notch.

I did make a Oracle Linux (uek) VM the other day
and am exploring it. MOSTLY like Centos - but
perhaps not as affected by the IBM deal. Perhaps.
FIRST order - dump el-crapo Gnome and install
XFCE. Working pretty well :-)

There's also "Scientific Linux", worth looking
into.

But, RPM universe, pick OpenSUSE/OS-TumbleWeed
every time.

EXCEPT they screwed me recently, put a substandard
version of FFMPEG in there that couldn't do what I
needed it to do. TRIED to install the alt version
but the dependencies just went deeper and deeper
and deeper until ... well ... screw it. Now the
box is Ubuntu Server.

Anyway, for most people, I'd advise to stick to
the Debian multiverse. It's a solid base with
a history going back to about The Beginning.

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 28-11-2021, 166p1 <z24ba6.net> a écrit :
> Updates, esp version upgrades, are a problem for ALL
> kinds of Linux/BSD. This is something where Winders
> does much better.
>
> Had a red hot Win-95 box - massive amount of memory for
> the time. Brought it all the way to Vista before it was
> just TOO damned slow/small. Everything worked.

For the Linux part, that's what I had before using a rolling distro.
When I update a few things at a time, it's transparent.

For the Windows part, you are not comparing the same things. With a
Windows upgrade, you are only upgrading Windows, you have to take care
of everything else. When you are upgrading Linux, you upgrade the
kernel, the GUI and every single application running on it.

[Bobbie Sellers]

Windows poses a problems because so many have to use it at work,
The solution would seem to be a dual-boot Windows Linux machine is
messed up every time MS decides to repair its broken kernel which messes
up the boot-loader which then has to be reinstalled.

Actually PCLinuxOS has few problems with updates, using Synaptic
and permits the use of several kernels on one machine, right now I have
two Long Term Support versions installed and the latest from the
packager, Texstar, who if he finds an error has been perpetrated will
work on setting it right. On the Forum we have coders and testers as
well as idiots like me. Now maybe I am lucky having decided after a
couple of HP products fail on me in record time to use Used Dell
Latitudes, have an E6520, E6540 and E7450. No problems on these models
and I have little fear of a problem when i get around to updating my
two older machines.

Forum is at <https://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php> . Registration
is free and if you cannot find the current iso files hit the Main button
on this initial forum screen and you will find yourself at the main
site. Current iso are 2011, three version of KDE, Mate, XFCE from
the packager and several others from the Community. The PCLinuxOS
Magazine is published every month AFAIK and is at volume #178, aimed
at the User base. PCLinux does not use or even plan to use systemd.
Sure you can get an older package list at Distrowatch.com. It is best
to have some experience before using PCLinux but like nearly every
current distribution it starts from a Windows XP version of KDE or
whichever Desktop Environment you think you want to use.

Some people like Aragorn move to Manjaro from PCLinuxOS but he is
very knowledgeable and experienced.

[166p1]

On 11/28/21 5:14 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 28-11-2021, 166p1 <z24ba6.net> a écrit :
>> Updates, esp version upgrades, are a problem for ALL
>> kinds of Linux/BSD. This is something where Winders
>> does much better.
>>
>> Had a red hot Win-95 box - massive amount of memory for
>> the time. Brought it all the way to Vista before it was
>> just TOO damned slow/small. Everything worked.
>
> For the Linux part, that's what I had before using a rolling distro.
> When I update a few things at a time, it's transparent.

I have TumbleWeed on a couple of boxes. It IS more
reliable ... except "zypper dup" takes a LONG time.

> For the Windows part, you are not comparing the same things. With a
> Windows upgrade, you are only upgrading Windows, you have to take care
> of everything else. When you are upgrading Linux, you upgrade the
> kernel, the GUI and every single application running on it.

Ummm... no - Winders has a "kernel" of sorts too. Win95/98 were
basically DOS with Winders as a program that ran on top of it.
NT/Win2k were more integrated. However in each case they just
kept the system calls the same and the software would work.

The "scattered" aspect of Linux, more than the kernel, seems
to be the problem. You can usually go from a 4.x kernel to
a 5.x kernel no problem. It's the DEPENDENCIES that'll screw
you every time. How many times have you seen "Sorry, we cannot
install ProgramX because it depends on abcxyz.0.12.03.so which
will not be installed". It won't be installed because it has
a ton of dependencies, each of which has a ton of dependencies,
that they didn't include in the repo for the latest distro.

When people write libraries they seem to have a bad habit
of changing how they work rather than making sure all the
OLD stuff works just like always and then adding some
new stuff. So, a program writ expecting abcxyz,0.12.03.so
may not work with abcxyz.0.12.04. This shouldn't be.

Fixes - well, you could always keep ALL the old libraries
for years, decades maybe. Space isn't so much of an issue
these days. Alas the most common distro upgrade processes
don't do that - they uninstall the old and, maybe, replace
them with the newer versions. Now your older software
won't work.

Part of the "scattered" aspect is the "crowd-source" approach
which let Linux grow so fast and well. Winders, well, that's
centrally coordinated. Old system calls will always work, new
libraries will always work with old software. The libraries
are not so much "new" as they are "added-onto".

Imagine if every update of HTML used slightly different
keywords, which did slightly different things in slightly
different ways, than the previous version - "img" today,
"image" tomorrow, "picture" the next. This seems to be
the case with too many library functions in Linux systems.

There is (was?) a Linux mag with "Zack" the kernel guy.
There were always battles with Linus - developers kept
wanting to make fundamental changes that would break all
kinds of other kernel stuff and/or major software. Linus
keeps them from doing such evils. Of course Linus isn't
as young as he used to be - what happens when he retires ?
No more anchor, it all spins off wildly, developers can't
keep up with all the sub-versions and ultimately have to
decide on ONE to support. Instead of being largely
interoperable with very similar apps, each post-Linux
becomes a world unto itself down to the binary level.

I'd predict a RHEL "Linux" and Ubuntu "Linux" and nothing
else, not even any spin-offs. Soon they'd become proprietary
one way or another ... some horrible users/month program
like so much software has become these days. I idly looked
into Claris FileMaker-Pro the other day. Used to be a good
little Database program and the price was OK. NOW it's like
$39 per user per month. No thanks. They're greeding themselves
out of the market, everybody may as well just use Office 365
crap instead for about the same rip-off price.

[166p1]

On 11/28/21 11:07 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 11/28/21 02:14, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 28-11-2021, 166p1 <z24ba6.net> a écrit :
>>>    Updates, esp version upgrades, are a problem for ALL
>>>    kinds of Linux/BSD. This is something where Winders
>>>    does much better.
>>>
>>>    Had a red hot Win-95 box - massive amount of memory for
>>>    the time. Brought it all the way to Vista before it was
>>>    just TOO damned slow/small. Everything worked.
>>
>> For the Linux part, that's what I had before using a rolling distro.
>> When I update a few things at a time, it's transparent.
>>
>> For the Windows part, you are not comparing the same things. With a
>> Windows upgrade, you are only upgrading Windows, you have to take care
>> of everything else. When you are upgrading Linux, you upgrade the
>> kernel, the GUI and every single application running on it.
>
>     Windows poses a problems because so many have to use it at work,
> The solution would seem to be a dual-boot Windows Linux machine is
> messed up every time MS decides to repair its broken kernel which messes
> up the boot-loader which then has to be reinstalled.

Winders updates tend to nuke multi-boot. There ARE ways
around it, but they're weird and seem to require UEFI
booting. Winders has the ultimate ego - nothing else
exists/matters.

Use a Linux VM inside Winders, or vice versa. Then it's
at your fingertips and you can even share folders, run
them at the same time.

>     Actually PCLinuxOS has few problems with updates, using Synaptic
> and permits the use of several kernels on one machine, right now I have
> two Long Term Support versions installed and the latest from the
> packager, Texstar, who if he finds an error has been perpetrated will
> work on setting it right. On the Forum we have coders and testers as
> well as idiots like me.  Now maybe I am lucky having decided after a
> couple of HP products fail on me in record time to use Used Dell
> Latitudes, have an E6520, E6540 and E7450. No problems on these models
> and I have little fear of a problem when i get around to updating my
> two older machines.
>
> Forum is at <https://www.pclinuxos.com/forum/index.php> . Registration
> is free and if you cannot find the current iso files hit the Main button
> on this initial forum screen and you will find yourself at the main
> site.   Current iso are 2011, three version of KDE, Mate, XFCE from
> the packager and several others from the Community.   The PCLinuxOS
> Magazine is published every month AFAIK and is at volume #178, aimed
> at the User base.  PCLinux does not use or even plan to use systemd.
> Sure you can get an older package list at Distrowatch.com.  It is best
> to have some experience before using PCLinux but like nearly every
> current distribution it starts from a Windows XP version of KDE or
> whichever Desktop Environment you think you want to use.
>
> Some people like Aragorn move to Manjaro from PCLinuxOS but he is
> very knowledgeable and experienced.

PCLinuxOS is ok ... though very focused on KDE, which is even
more bloated than Gnome (but a lot more usable - hey, look at
the default Gnome for Centos or OracleLinux - it MUST DIE
IMMEDIATELY or you just can't STAND it, blend in XFCE). Never
liked Gnome, but now it's just HORRIBLE.

But if you're gonna use Linux then Deb, Mint or Ubuntu(s)
are probably the best way to go these days. Lots of us like
MX ... which while Deb/Ubuntu is some aspects has some
nice enhancements.

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 29-11-2021, 166p1 <z24ba6.net> a écrit :
> On 11/28/21 5:14 AM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 28-11-2021, 166p1 <z24ba6.net> a écrit :
>>> Updates, esp version upgrades, are a problem for ALL
>>> kinds of Linux/BSD. This is something where Winders
>>> does much better.
>>>
>>> Had a red hot Win-95 box - massive amount of memory for
>>> the time. Brought it all the way to Vista before it was
>>> just TOO damned slow/small. Everything worked.
>>
>> For the Linux part, that's what I had before using a rolling distro.
>> When I update a few things at a time, it's transparent.
>
> I have TumbleWeed on a couple of boxes. It IS more
> reliable ... except "zypper dup" takes a LONG time.
>
>> For the Windows part, you are not comparing the same things. With a
>> Windows upgrade, you are only upgrading Windows, you have to take care
>> of everything else. When you are upgrading Linux, you upgrade the
>> kernel, the GUI and every single application running on it.
>
> Ummm... no - Winders has a "kernel" of sorts too. Win95/98 were
> basically DOS with Winders as a program that ran on top of it.
> NT/Win2k were more integrated. However in each case they just
> kept the system calls the same and the software would work.

In your dreams. When you upgrade Windows, the old stuff can still work,
but it's far from everything keep going on fine. And if you want a system
up to date (ie: not only Windows), you have to take care yourself of
upgrading every single software you installed.

> The "scattered" aspect of Linux, more than the kernel, seems
> to be the problem. You can usually go from a 4.x kernel to
> a 5.x kernel no problem. It's the DEPENDENCIES that'll screw
> you every time. How many times have you seen "Sorry, we cannot
> install ProgramX because it depends on abcxyz.0.12.03.so which
> will not be installed". It won't be installed because it has
> a ton of dependencies, each of which has a ton of dependencies,
> that they didn't include in the repo for the latest distro.

The dependencies on the libraries are not related with the OS but with
the software. Every software is using libraries and needs some version
of it to work. The difference between the Linux way and the Windows way
is the way the libraries are managed.

With Windows, every software comes with its own dependencies. So if five
softwares are using the same library, it's installed five times and
launched five times in memory when needed. So, it's easier to manage,
but it's a waste of ressources.

With Linux, the libraries are mutualise, so it can be tricky when one
library needs to be upgraded and not the other one. It's not the Linux
issue, it's the distro maintainer issue.

> Fixes - well, you could always keep ALL the old libraries
> for years, decades maybe. Space isn't so much of an issue
> these days. Alas the most common distro upgrade processes
> don't do that - they uninstall the old and, maybe, replace
> them with the newer versions. Now your older software
> won't work.

Once again, it's more complicated, but it's better. Having a lot of
unused old unmaintained libraries can be easier, but it can be used by
an attacker.

> Imagine if every update of HTML used slightly different
> keywords, which did slightly different things in slightly
> different ways, than the previous version - "img" today,
> "image" tomorrow, "picture" the next. This seems to be
> the case with too many library functions in Linux systems.

It's not related to Linux or to Windows. Look at python which changed
completely from python2 to python3. Whatever your OS, you have to take
care of it.

> There were always battles with Linus

Once again, it's not related with Linux. Take anything, if a threshold
in the number of people is attain, there are battle. Look at the morons
on cola fighting for Trump/Biden. There are the battles on the OS, on
the tools, on the religions, on the sport, on anything you want.

> Linus keeps them from doing such evils. Of course Linus isn't as
> young as he used to be - what happens when he retires ? No more
> anchor, it all spins off wildly,

No. Either they will keep that way or there will be a fork or two but
nothing to worry about. Look at openoffice/libroffice when Oracle took
control of it. There was a fork, and everything is fine in both parts.

> developers can't keep up with all the sub-versions and ultimately
> have to decide on ONE to support.

Yes, of course, so what? Look at systemd, The distro switched from a
sysinit to another one until all recognized the best one was systemed.
If one day there is another one which is better they'll switch again.
With the kernel it would be the same.

> Soon they'd become proprietary one way or another ... some horrible
> users/month program like so much software has become these days.

I'm not sharing your fears.

[166p1]

NOT what I've generally experienced over the years. The
biggest problem of late didn't even have to do with MS,
but the chip-makers, when they stopped supporting native
8/16-bit code. Gotta use DOSBOX or something like it.
I have a CP/M-86 running on VirtualBox ... and a nice
'C' compiler for it. DOS 2.x as well with IBM 'C' and
Pascal compilers. But the executables won't run native
on any i-series Intel processor anymore.

>> The "scattered" aspect of Linux, more than the kernel, seems
>> to be the problem. You can usually go from a 4.x kernel to
>> a 5.x kernel no problem. It's the DEPENDENCIES that'll screw
>> you every time. How many times have you seen "Sorry, we cannot
>> install ProgramX because it depends on abcxyz.0.12.03.so which
>> will not be installed". It won't be installed because it has
>> a ton of dependencies, each of which has a ton of dependencies,
>> that they didn't include in the repo for the latest distro.
>
> The dependencies on the libraries are not related with the OS but with
> the software. Every software is using libraries and needs some version
> of it to work. The difference between the Linux way and the Windows way
> is the way the libraries are managed.

AND The Problem ...

> With Windows, every software comes with its own dependencies. So if five
> softwares are using the same library, it's installed five times and
> launched five times in memory when needed. So, it's easier to manage,
> but it's a waste of ressources.
>
> With Linux, the libraries are mutualise, so it can be tricky when one
> library needs to be upgraded and not the other one. It's not the Linux
> issue, it's the distro maintainer issue.

I won't put it all on them. The multiplicity of library
versions is enough to overwhelm anybody.

>> Fixes - well, you could always keep ALL the old libraries
>> for years, decades maybe. Space isn't so much of an issue
>> these days. Alas the most common distro upgrade processes
>> don't do that - they uninstall the old and, maybe, replace
>> them with the newer versions. Now your older software
>> won't work.
>
> Once again, it's more complicated, but it's better. Having a lot of
> unused old unmaintained libraries can be easier, but it can be used by
> an attacker.

But your existing - often Not Very Old At All - software
won't work. Security is an issue, but not an excuse for
breaking everything as bad as the hackers would.

Somewhere I offered a fix - repair any issues in the libraries,
BUT KEEP THE INTERFACE THE SAME. You can add new functions, but
make sure the old ones always work as expected.

>> Imagine if every update of HTML used slightly different
>> keywords, which did slightly different things in slightly
>> different ways, than the previous version - "img" today,
>> "image" tomorrow, "picture" the next. This seems to be
>> the case with too many library functions in Linux systems.
>
> It's not related to Linux or to Windows. Look at python which changed
> completely from python2 to python3. Whatever your OS, you have to take
> care of it.

Oddly, I never programmed in Python before P3 came out.
So, to me, Python IS P3.

Although you can fix 99% of old P2 programs just by adding
parens around print statements :-)

>> There were always battles with Linus
>
> Once again, it's not related with Linux. Take anything, if a threshold
> in the number of people is attain, there are battle. Look at the morons
> on cola fighting for Trump/Biden. There are the battles on the OS, on
> the tools, on the religions, on the sport, on anything you want.

"the morons on cola fighting for Trump/Biden" ?????

Ok, that's kind of a, well, odd thing to say.

Linus seems a very PRACTICAL person. He wants his creation
to WORK and work CONSISTENTLY. Hardly a bad thing. He is not
going to go along with weird kernel changes that trash vast
swaths of what's out there. Yet, Linux remains Very Good -
so those changes weren't REALLY "necessary" at all ... just
"creative" brain-farts by young upstarts looking for something
"significant" to do.

>> Linus keeps them from doing such evils. Of course Linus isn't as
>> young as he used to be - what happens when he retires ? No more
>> anchor, it all spins off wildly,
>
> No. Either they will keep that way or there will be a fork or two but
> nothing to worry about. Look at openoffice/libroffice when Oracle took
> control of it. There was a fork, and everything is fine in both parts.

Well, I don't use "Open" anymore ... it's fallen way
behind the curve. I do wish Libre had done more to keep
up an Access-compatible app though. Access is a very
handy WYSIWYG DB system. Nearest thing WAS FileMaker,
before they went to the per-user-per-month rip-off plan
like MS. I'll never use IT again ... never reward malice.

>> developers can't keep up with all the sub-versions and ultimately
>> have to decide on ONE to support.
>
> Yes, of course, so what?

"So what" ??????????????????

LOTS of "what".

> Look at systemd, The distro switched from a
> sysinit to another one until all recognized the best one was systemed.
> If one day there is another one which is better they'll switch again.
> With the kernel it would be the same.

I disagree about systemd being "best". I'm quite happy with
distros that don't include it. Stinks of the Windows registry
a bit too much for my tastes - the big spinney Master Control
Program whose means and motives you can't quite discern ....

>> Soon they'd become proprietary one way or another ... some horrible
>> users/month program like so much software has become these days.
>
> I'm not sharing your fears.

But you SHOULD laddie ... you should ...... I've seen
Great System after Great System go to shit and take all
their Great Apps and Great Paradigms with them.

I remember when MS was considered "benificent" ... until
Gates got BIG $$$ signs in his eyes ......

Did find a cheap way to recover old systems of employees
No Longer With The Company - who made MS accounts with
passwords nobody knows, keyed to e-mail addreses nobody
knows. No more "You must log in to your MS account or
PowerPoint will not work" bullshit.

I really really HATE Winders ....