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3d modeling machine
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Joshua Whalen
Apr 23, 2013, 7:29:13 PM4/23/13
to
I'm building a workstation for a friend, and thanks to my dad's having a
heart attack month ago, which he is finaly out of the hospital for, I'm
WAAAAAAY behind schedule, so I'm afraid I have to beg your kind
indulgence, fellow citizens of geekdom, and ask for your input.
Take a peek here: http://www.biguglyrock.net to get an idea of my
background. The page is unfinished, I'm sorry to say, because I have
been one busy fellow the last 2 years, so please forgive it's crudeness
and incompleteness. This should, none the less, give you some idea of my
skill level.
My budget is $2500, and the machine must do the following: Fast 3d card,
good quality (and widely supported, pleez) raid controller card (I don't
think we can do scsi here, so we're talking a sata parity raid, or else
I'll just go with an external thing like a mini-g)
What I guess I need help with is logic board, processor, and cards. I
could also use some advice on where to buy.
I usually use apple hardware for myself, but my friend has expressed a
preference for generic pc hardware, and I can't really argue against
that, given the state of apple's obvious bee-line back to closed
proprietary crap again. Sorry, I DID drink the Koolaid, but I'm pretty
sure I've bought my last apple product, and certainly no longer
recommending it, even to the newbies.
So help me out, dear friends, I'm way late. Your kind and generous input
will be deeply appreciated and I'll certainly reciprocate whenever
anyone else needs mine.
Love ya all (well, ALMOST all ;-) )
Joshua
heart attack month ago, which he is finaly out of the hospital for, I'm
WAAAAAAY behind schedule, so I'm afraid I have to beg your kind
indulgence, fellow citizens of geekdom, and ask for your input.
Take a peek here: http://www.biguglyrock.net to get an idea of my
background. The page is unfinished, I'm sorry to say, because I have
been one busy fellow the last 2 years, so please forgive it's crudeness
and incompleteness. This should, none the less, give you some idea of my
skill level.
My budget is $2500, and the machine must do the following: Fast 3d card,
good quality (and widely supported, pleez) raid controller card (I don't
think we can do scsi here, so we're talking a sata parity raid, or else
I'll just go with an external thing like a mini-g)
What I guess I need help with is logic board, processor, and cards. I
could also use some advice on where to buy.
I usually use apple hardware for myself, but my friend has expressed a
preference for generic pc hardware, and I can't really argue against
that, given the state of apple's obvious bee-line back to closed
proprietary crap again. Sorry, I DID drink the Koolaid, but I'm pretty
sure I've bought my last apple product, and certainly no longer
recommending it, even to the newbies.
So help me out, dear friends, I'm way late. Your kind and generous input
will be deeply appreciated and I'll certainly reciprocate whenever
anyone else needs mine.
Love ya all (well, ALMOST all ;-) )
Joshua
Aragorn
Apr 23, 2013, 9:29:37 PM4/23/13
to
On Wednesday 24 April 2013 01:29, Joshua Whalen conveyed the following
to comp.os.linux.hardware...
> I'm building a workstation for a friend [...]
grade home-and-office PC stuff - then I would recommend going with one
of the following motherboard manufacturers, but without that I specify a
particular motherboard and processor combination for you, since mileage
may and will vary, and so will price tags.
° Tyan
° Supermicro
° Gigabyte (their professional series)
° Intel
If the machine is to be used as a 3D workstation, then you probably want
to have a quad-core processor chip, or possibly even a multi-chip
motherboard, but that's going to cost you a lot more.
In the event of an Intel motherboard, you will of course not have the
option to go with AMD processors. The other manufacturers offer boards
for either Intel or AMD processors. In some cases, you can even buy
such systems as barebones, i.e. the motherboard is already mounted into
a chassis - for professional-grade stuff, this typically boils down to a
rack-mountable flip-over mid-tower chassis - along with a certified (and
possibly redudant) power supply, and typically also with hot-swap drive
bays. You then simply pick the model of motherboard, the processor type
and the amount of memory and disk storage, and the machine will be built
for you and shipped to you.
The advantage of going with a professional-grade motherboard is that the
motherboard will most probably still come with a legacy BIOS chip on it.
Consumer-grade motherboards on the other hand are all migrating (or have
already migrated) to a UEFI chip, because Microsoft demands that
hardware vendors who wish to boast the "designed for Microsoft ® Windows
™ 8" sticker on their machines must have a UEFI with the Secure Boot
feature enabled. And UEFI is already an ugly mess to set up in the
first place, but with Secure Boot it becomes an even uglier mess. I'm
not going to go into the details here, but "Google is your friend". (On
x86, Secure Boot can usually be disabled in the UEFI firmware, and there
typically also is an option to have the UEFI mimic a legacy BIOS.)
Another thing you should keep in mind that truly professional-grade
stuff typically uses ECC memory, which is a lot more expensive than
regular memory, and such motherboards are typically also very picky on
account of the types and brands of memory modules.
As for a RAID adapter, you can't go wrong with Adaptec. You definitely
want a PCIe RAID adapter. Most of Adaptec's true RAID adapters can be
driven by the "aacraid" driver module, which is part of the upstream
Linux kernel, so no extra driver needs being installed. 3Ware, Qlogic
and LSI also make very good RAID adapters which are supported in the
upstream kernel, but I myself have only used Adaptec, so that's the only
kind I can really comment on.
Also bear in mind that parallel SCSI is not quite mainstream anymore,
even for high-performance stuff. SAS (Serially-Attached SCSI) is the
norm now, albeit that you can also get away with enterprise-grade and
RAID-qualified SATA disks. Not all SATA disks are usable in RAID
configurations because some have timing issues which cause the adapter -
or the operating system, in the event of software RAID - to see a disk
as malfunctioning when it's actually still functioning properly. This
is why special RAID-qualified SATA disks were brought onto the market.
SAS disks are always RAID-qualified, but then you're in a higher price
segment again. SAS and SATA disks can typically be connected to the
same RAID controllers, and a decent SAS/SATA RAID controller supports
hot-swap.
For video adapter cards, you could go with either AMD/ATi or nVidia. I
am rather partial to nVidia myself. However, the question here is "Is
your friend going to be using that machine for gaming, or is this a
professional-grade graphics workstation?" In the latter case, if you go
with nVidia, you may want to contemplate their (more expensive) Quadro
range. If not, I'd recommend one of their GeForce models. nVidia's
proprietary drivers for UNIX also support CUDA, so that your GPU becomes
an extra general purpose number crunching unit. I don't know whether
AMD/ATi has an equivalent technology - if they do, then I'm not aware of
it.
Either way, don't settle for on-board graphics. While those may be
sufficient for home and office desktop PCs and maybe even for some
simple gaming, they usually suck at the heavy 3D stuff, and they
typically share their memory with the main system RAM. You don't want
that.
Speaking of RAM, as I said earlier on, ECC RAM is expensive. But for a
serious 3D workstation, I would recommend it, and I would put in at
least 8 GiB. And of course, you want a 64-bit distribution on there.
There is no valid excuse anymore for still sticking to a 32-bit
distribution on a machine with 64-bit processors. Most 64-bit
distributions for x86 come as multilib, meaning that they are 64-bit
where possible, but that they also contain a number of 32-bit shared
libraries for that stuff which hasn't been ported to 64-bit yet, and
then this 32-bit stuff can run seamlessly alongside of the 64-bit
software.
> I usually use apple hardware for myself, but my friend has expressed a
> preference for generic pc hardware, and I can't really argue against
> that, given the state of apple's obvious bee-line back to closed
> proprietary crap again.
Not just that, but the time when Apple used really high quality hardware
(such as SCSI when everyone else was using PATA) is also already
confined to the history books. With Apple, you pay for the design.
It's supposed to be some kind of artistic thing, and you are part of a
self-proclaimed elite if you buy one. But what's inside is not
particularly of any better quality than standard off-the-shelf stuff you
buy at a generic PC store.
--
= Aragorn =
GNU/Linux user #223157 - http://www.linuxcounter.net
to comp.os.linux.hardware...
> I'm building a workstation for a friend [...]
>
> My budget is $2500, and the machine must do the following: Fast 3d
> card, good quality (and widely supported, pleez) raid controller card
> (I don't think we can do scsi here, so we're talking a sata parity
> raid, or else I'll just go with an external thing like a mini-g)
>
> What I guess I need help with is logic board, processor, and cards. I
> could also use some advice on where to buy.
If it has to be professional-grade hardware - as opposed to consumer-
> My budget is $2500, and the machine must do the following: Fast 3d
> card, good quality (and widely supported, pleez) raid controller card
> (I don't think we can do scsi here, so we're talking a sata parity
> raid, or else I'll just go with an external thing like a mini-g)
>
> What I guess I need help with is logic board, processor, and cards. I
> could also use some advice on where to buy.
grade home-and-office PC stuff - then I would recommend going with one
of the following motherboard manufacturers, but without that I specify a
particular motherboard and processor combination for you, since mileage
may and will vary, and so will price tags.
° Tyan
° Supermicro
° Gigabyte (their professional series)
° Intel
If the machine is to be used as a 3D workstation, then you probably want
to have a quad-core processor chip, or possibly even a multi-chip
motherboard, but that's going to cost you a lot more.
In the event of an Intel motherboard, you will of course not have the
option to go with AMD processors. The other manufacturers offer boards
for either Intel or AMD processors. In some cases, you can even buy
such systems as barebones, i.e. the motherboard is already mounted into
a chassis - for professional-grade stuff, this typically boils down to a
rack-mountable flip-over mid-tower chassis - along with a certified (and
possibly redudant) power supply, and typically also with hot-swap drive
bays. You then simply pick the model of motherboard, the processor type
and the amount of memory and disk storage, and the machine will be built
for you and shipped to you.
The advantage of going with a professional-grade motherboard is that the
motherboard will most probably still come with a legacy BIOS chip on it.
Consumer-grade motherboards on the other hand are all migrating (or have
already migrated) to a UEFI chip, because Microsoft demands that
hardware vendors who wish to boast the "designed for Microsoft ® Windows
™ 8" sticker on their machines must have a UEFI with the Secure Boot
feature enabled. And UEFI is already an ugly mess to set up in the
first place, but with Secure Boot it becomes an even uglier mess. I'm
not going to go into the details here, but "Google is your friend". (On
x86, Secure Boot can usually be disabled in the UEFI firmware, and there
typically also is an option to have the UEFI mimic a legacy BIOS.)
Another thing you should keep in mind that truly professional-grade
stuff typically uses ECC memory, which is a lot more expensive than
regular memory, and such motherboards are typically also very picky on
account of the types and brands of memory modules.
As for a RAID adapter, you can't go wrong with Adaptec. You definitely
want a PCIe RAID adapter. Most of Adaptec's true RAID adapters can be
driven by the "aacraid" driver module, which is part of the upstream
Linux kernel, so no extra driver needs being installed. 3Ware, Qlogic
and LSI also make very good RAID adapters which are supported in the
upstream kernel, but I myself have only used Adaptec, so that's the only
kind I can really comment on.
Also bear in mind that parallel SCSI is not quite mainstream anymore,
even for high-performance stuff. SAS (Serially-Attached SCSI) is the
norm now, albeit that you can also get away with enterprise-grade and
RAID-qualified SATA disks. Not all SATA disks are usable in RAID
configurations because some have timing issues which cause the adapter -
or the operating system, in the event of software RAID - to see a disk
as malfunctioning when it's actually still functioning properly. This
is why special RAID-qualified SATA disks were brought onto the market.
SAS disks are always RAID-qualified, but then you're in a higher price
segment again. SAS and SATA disks can typically be connected to the
same RAID controllers, and a decent SAS/SATA RAID controller supports
hot-swap.
For video adapter cards, you could go with either AMD/ATi or nVidia. I
am rather partial to nVidia myself. However, the question here is "Is
your friend going to be using that machine for gaming, or is this a
professional-grade graphics workstation?" In the latter case, if you go
with nVidia, you may want to contemplate their (more expensive) Quadro
range. If not, I'd recommend one of their GeForce models. nVidia's
proprietary drivers for UNIX also support CUDA, so that your GPU becomes
an extra general purpose number crunching unit. I don't know whether
AMD/ATi has an equivalent technology - if they do, then I'm not aware of
it.
Either way, don't settle for on-board graphics. While those may be
sufficient for home and office desktop PCs and maybe even for some
simple gaming, they usually suck at the heavy 3D stuff, and they
typically share their memory with the main system RAM. You don't want
that.
Speaking of RAM, as I said earlier on, ECC RAM is expensive. But for a
serious 3D workstation, I would recommend it, and I would put in at
least 8 GiB. And of course, you want a 64-bit distribution on there.
There is no valid excuse anymore for still sticking to a 32-bit
distribution on a machine with 64-bit processors. Most 64-bit
distributions for x86 come as multilib, meaning that they are 64-bit
where possible, but that they also contain a number of 32-bit shared
libraries for that stuff which hasn't been ported to 64-bit yet, and
then this 32-bit stuff can run seamlessly alongside of the 64-bit
software.
> I usually use apple hardware for myself, but my friend has expressed a
> preference for generic pc hardware, and I can't really argue against
> that, given the state of apple's obvious bee-line back to closed
> proprietary crap again.
(such as SCSI when everyone else was using PATA) is also already
confined to the history books. With Apple, you pay for the design.
It's supposed to be some kind of artistic thing, and you are part of a
self-proclaimed elite if you buy one. But what's inside is not
particularly of any better quality than standard off-the-shelf stuff you
buy at a generic PC store.
--
= Aragorn =
GNU/Linux user #223157 - http://www.linuxcounter.net
Christoph Schmees
Apr 24, 2013, 2:17:46 PM4/24/13
to
On 24.04.2013 03:29, Aragorn wrote:
> ...
They have different series of MB and complete machines. I would
go for a complete machine named "Workstation" or "Server" (and
equip the latter with a potent graphic controller). Hardware
specified for 24/7 is available. You can get them used at quite
reasonable rates.
I found them very reliable; one of my machines runs ten years
now; only I had to replace the fan once. :-)
Christoph
--
email:
nurfuerspam -> gmx
de -> net
> ...
> If it has to be professional-grade hardware - as opposed to consumer-
> grade home-and-office PC stuff - then I would recommend going with one
> of the following motherboard manufacturers, but without that I specify a
> particular motherboard and processor combination for you, since mileage
> may and will vary, and so will price tags.
>
> ° Tyan
> ° Supermicro
> ° Gigabyte (their professional series)
> ° Intel
>
plus Fujitsu (ex Fujitsu-Siemens).
> grade home-and-office PC stuff - then I would recommend going with one
> of the following motherboard manufacturers, but without that I specify a
> particular motherboard and processor combination for you, since mileage
> may and will vary, and so will price tags.
>
> ° Tyan
> ° Supermicro
> ° Gigabyte (their professional series)
> ° Intel
>
They have different series of MB and complete machines. I would
go for a complete machine named "Workstation" or "Server" (and
equip the latter with a potent graphic controller). Hardware
specified for 24/7 is available. You can get them used at quite
reasonable rates.
I found them very reliable; one of my machines runs ten years
now; only I had to replace the fan once. :-)
Christoph
--
email:
nurfuerspam -> gmx
de -> net
Aragorn
Apr 24, 2013, 5:42:02 PM4/24/13
to
On Wednesday 24 April 2013 20:17, Christoph Schmees conveyed the
following to comp.os.linux.hardware...
Well, your mileage may vary, but I would definitely not recommend going
with a Fujitsu *hard disk* in that machine then. My experiences with
those have not been good, and they also always showed up as the slowest
of the bunch in comparative performance benchmarks.
For a professional-grade hard disk - assuming we're talking of a
Winchester with rotating platters - I definitely recommend either
Hitachi or Seagate.
But like I said, your mileage may vary. ;-)
following to comp.os.linux.hardware...
with a Fujitsu *hard disk* in that machine then. My experiences with
those have not been good, and they also always showed up as the slowest
of the bunch in comparative performance benchmarks.
For a professional-grade hard disk - assuming we're talking of a
Winchester with rotating platters - I definitely recommend either
Hitachi or Seagate.
But like I said, your mileage may vary. ;-)
Soupe du Jour
Jun 26, 2013, 2:57:17 PM6/26/13
to
On Wed, 24 Apr 2013 23:42:02 +0200, Aragorn wrote:
>
> For a professional-grade hard disk - assuming we're talking of a
> Winchester with rotating platters - I definitely recommend either
> Hitachi or Seagate.
Western Digital now owns Hitachi and Seagate acquired Samsung's HD
>
> For a professional-grade hard disk - assuming we're talking of a
> Winchester with rotating platters - I definitely recommend either
> Hitachi or Seagate.
division, so there's not much in the way of a competitive market at this
point.
They also both immediately cut length of their warranties, but I see
Seagate is raising their's back up a bit.
I wonder when we'll have something better than SSD or rotating rust?
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