How did tty booting work?

[Avoi...@gmail.com]

In olden times they booted via a teletypewriter.

So if you wanted to setup your system to do so now, could
you write a script or make a setting to logon by paper-tty
OR normal VGA/keybrd, depending which keybrd replied first.
Or even better: both, like 2 mice can both talk.

THEN how would you extend that to:
boot with stdOut being a existsing routine that writes to the
parallel-port ?

Perhaps it's set in initab?
And then how do you redirect stdOut to your par-port routine?

== TIA.

[Robert Heller]

Lilo and the kernel itself both support serial port console and can be
set to talk to a serial port *instead* of (or in addition to) the VGA
display/keyboard (see: Kernel documenation file named
'serial-console.txt'). Grub can also use a serial port console -- see
'info grub' for details. Model 33 teletypes (with paper-tape
punches/readers) actually used EIA current-loop, but it is trivial to
convert EIA current-loop to RS232 and thus connect a Model 33 teletype
to a serial port (at 110 BAUD). I don't know if 'modern' [glass]
terminals are available with paper-tape punches/readers -- they *might*
exist. Unfortunately, many/most 'modern' PC motherboards lack RS232
*serial* ports, although PCI serial port cards are available and are
supported by Linux out-of-the-box, as are USB <=> RS232 devices.

>
> == TIA.
>
>

--
Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 / hel...@deepsoft.com
Deepwoods Software -- http://www.deepsoft.com/
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

[Avoi...@gmail.com]

In olden times they booted via a teletypewriter.

So if you wanted to setup your system to do so now, could
you write a script or make a setting to logon by paper-tty
OR normal VGA/keybrd, depending which keybrd replied first.
Or even better: both, like 2 mice can both talk.

THEN how would you extend that to:
boot with stdOut being a existsing routine that writes to the
parallel-port ?

Perhaps it's set in initab?
And then how do you redirect stdOut to your par-port routine?

== TIA.

[Tauno Voipio]

Would you please read the documentation first?

http://www.tldp.org/ is a good starting point.

--

-T.

[Rikishi42]

On 2013-04-09, Avoi...@gmail.com <Avoi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In olden times they booted via a teletypewriter.
>
> So if you wanted to setup your system to do so now, could
> you write a script or make a setting to logon by paper-tty
> OR normal VGA/keybrd, depending which keybrd replied first.
> Or even better: both, like 2 mice can both talk.
>
> THEN how would you extend that to:
> boot with stdOut being a existsing routine that writes to the
> parallel-port ?

Blasphemy. Surely you mean the serial port !

RS232 or nothing !


Have fun with your project, whish I could help.
Keep us updated.
:-)


--
When in doubt, use brute force.
-- Ken Thompson

[Avoi...@gmail.com]

In article <CIadnWSmitntkvnM...@giganews.com>, Robert Heller <hel...@deepsoft.com> wrote:

> At Tue, 9 Apr 2013 11:22:46 +0000 (UTC) Avoi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >
> > In olden times they booted via a teletypewriter.
> >
> > So if you wanted to setup your system to do so now, could
> > you write a script or make a setting to logon by paper-tty
> > OR normal VGA/keybrd, depending which keybrd replied first.
> > Or even better: both, like 2 mice can both talk.
> >
> > THEN how would you extend that to:
> > boot with stdOut being a existsing routine that writes to the
> > parallel-port ?
> >
> > Perhaps it's set in initab?
> > And then how do you redirect stdOut to your par-port routine?
>
> Lilo and the kernel itself both support serial port console and can be
> set to talk to a serial port *instead* of (or in addition to) the VGA
> display/keyboard (see: Kernel documenation file named
> 'serial-console.txt'). Grub can also use a serial port console -- see
> 'info grub' for details. Model 33 teletypes (with paper-tape
> punches/readers) actually used EIA current-loop, but it is trivial to
> convert EIA current-loop to RS232 and thus connect a Model 33 teletype
> to a serial port (at 110 BAUD). I don't know if 'modern' [glass]
> terminals are available with paper-tape punches/readers -- they *might*
> exist. Unfortunately, many/most 'modern' PC motherboards lack RS232
> *serial* ports, although PCI serial port cards are available and are
> supported by Linux out-of-the-box, as are USB <=> RS232 devices.
>

OK, thanks.
Although I'm from an embedded background, I want to work at
the highest/most-superficial level.
I don't want to touch/know LILO and not even grub.

*nix's ability to redirect and filter data-streams fascinates me.
So, let the system talk as it was originally setup, and then just
redirect or Tee the output to my unusual destination.

The full requirement is to have a rPi [creditcard sized ARM
(not 86x based) computer] display on the most primitive
linux-PC. I.e. which has a parallel port. The serial-port
would need extra hardware.

AFAIK, at any stage you can redirect StdOut to any
device. So can't I boot the rPi 'blind' and then call
a script to `talk out via the driver that I've made
for a type of par-port`?

== TIA.

[Johann Klammer]

Serial would be easier.
I believe it takes only a single line in /etc/inittab to have a getty
listen on a serial port.

PLIP is a network packet thingy.. I believe telnet/ssh would be the
thing to use with that. Unfortunately, the last time I tried PLIP it had
timing problems and was dropping packets galore... You may have to
recompile the kernel to use a higher HZ value or something...

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 10/04/13 14:45, Avoi...@gmail.com wrote:
> AFAIK, at any stage you can redirect StdOut to any device. So can't I
> boot the rPi 'blind' and then call a script to `talk out via the
> driver that I've made for a type of par-port`? == TIA.

well the nub is in the 'booting blind' bit.

I have a server that 'boots blind' until such stage as I can telnet into it.

Until it doesn't.

Then I have to hook a monitor to it to find out WHY..
Because the PC bios, grub and the early sages of boot all talk to a
primitive device called a 'keyboard' and a 'VGA screen'

And until Linux is loaded, that's all that is happening..or CAN happen.

changing the boot system on the pi to get booting to parport is another
game entirely

But if it's an embedded device to do a job and you expect it to always
boot reliably anyway in the same way that e.,g. a router does, until its
web server is up - then what you propose is of course just fine.
Although for my money I'd use telnet on a DOS PC if it came to that, or
stuff a stripped out linux on it and an old ethernet card if its that old.

Assuming the PI has an ethernet port as standard of course


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

[Robert Heller]

At Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:01:25 +0100 The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>
> On 10/04/13 14:45, Avoi...@gmail.com wrote:
> > AFAIK, at any stage you can redirect StdOut to any device. So can't I
> > boot the rPi 'blind' and then call a script to `talk out via the
> > driver that I've made for a type of par-port`? == TIA.
>
> well the nub is in the 'booting blind' bit.
>
> I have a server that 'boots blind' until such stage as I can telnet into it.
>
> Until it doesn't.
>
> Then I have to hook a monitor to it to find out WHY..
> Because the PC bios, grub and the early sages of boot all talk to a
> primitive device called a 'keyboard' and a 'VGA screen'
>
> And until Linux is loaded, that's all that is happening..or CAN happen.

Grub & the Linux kernel can be set up to talk to a serial port.

info grub
kernel-docs/serial-console.txt

I believe *decent* servers can be set to so the *BIOS* talks to
something other then the 'keyboard' and a 'VGA screen' (some kind of
low-level 'management' layer, maybe even a serial port). Of course this
does not apply to desktop boxen configured as headless servers...

>
> changing the boot system on the pi to get booting to parport is another
> game entirely
>
> But if it's an embedded device to do a job and you expect it to always
> boot reliably anyway in the same way that e.,g. a router does, until its
> web server is up - then what you propose is of course just fine.
> Although for my money I'd use telnet on a DOS PC if it came to that, or
> stuff a stripped out linux on it and an old ethernet card if its that old.
>
> Assuming the PI has an ethernet port as standard of course
>
>

--

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <P_OdnaZ68-uIHPjM...@giganews.com>,
Robert Heller <hel...@deepsoft.com> wrote:
...

>Grub & the Linux kernel can be set up to talk to a serial port.

Note that the real target here is the Pi, and on the Pi, it all comes for
free. This whole question is only interesting on X86 (where I have often
wanted to do the serial port thing, but have never gotten around to figuring
out the grubby uglies necessary to do it).

--
Modern Christian: Someone who can take time out from
complaining about "welfare mothers popping out babies we
have to feed" to complain about welfare mothers getting
abortions that PREVENT more babies to be raised at public
expense.

[Richard Kettlewell]

gaz...@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) writes:
> Robert Heller <hel...@deepsoft.com> wrote:
> ...
>>Grub & the Linux kernel can be set up to talk to a serial port.
>
> Note that the real target here is the Pi, and on the Pi, it all comes for
> free. This whole question is only interesting on X86 (where I have often
> wanted to do the serial port thing, but have never gotten around to figuring
> out the grubby uglies necessary to do it).

It’s not particular ugly.
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SerialConsoleHowto covers a variety of
configurations (it's focused on Ubuntu, but a much of it will work more
widely).

Apparently Grub supports USB serial ports these days...

--
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <878v4qq...@araminta.anjou.terraraq.org.uk>,

Keep in mind that at the time(s) that I was interested in doing this, things
were not nearly so "turnkey" in the Linux world as they are today.

This is not, of course, to imply in any way that I couldn't have gone ahead
and done the required research, read the appropriate HOWTOs, etc, and figured
it out and done it - even back then. But, as I say, it never quite reached
the necessary level of "wanting-ness" for me to overcome the hurdles.

Anyway, as I said, serial booting works out-of-the-box on Pi Linux. The
hardest part is finding and hooking up the necessary doodle to connect the
GPIO pins to a regular (however you choose to interpret that) serial port.

--
Windows 95 n. (Win-doze): A 32 bit extension to a 16 bit user interface for
an 8 bit operating system based on a 4 bit architecture from a 2 bit company
that can't stand 1 bit of competition.

Modern day upgrade --> Windows XP Professional x64: Windows is now a 64 bit
tweak of a 32 bit extension to a 16 bit user interface for an 8 bit
operating system based on a 4 bit architecture from a 2 bit company that
can't stand 1 bit of competition.

[Avoi...@gmail.com]

In article <kk430q$3oa$1...@news.xmission.com>, gaz...@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) wrote:

> In article <878v4qq...@araminta.anjou.terraraq.org.uk>,
> Richard Kettlewell <r...@greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> >gaz...@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) writes:
> >> Robert Heller <hel...@deepsoft.com> wrote:
> >> ...
> >>>Grub & the Linux kernel can be set up to talk to a serial port.
> >>
> >> Note that the real target here is the Pi, and on the Pi, it all comes for
> >> free. This whole question is only interesting on X86 (where I have often
> >> wanted to do the serial port thing, but have never gotten around to figuring
> >> out the grubby uglies necessary to do it).
> >
> >It's not particular ugly.
> >https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SerialConsoleHowto covers a variety of
> >configurations (it's focused on Ubuntu, but a much of it will work more
> >widely).

OK thanks, I'll check that. OH crap !! Its httpS !!
OK, it looks interesting.

> >Apparently Grub supports USB serial ports these days...
>

> Anyway, as I said, serial booting works out-of-the-box on Pi Linux. The
> hardest part is finding and hooking up the necessary doodle to connect the
> GPIO pins to a regular (however you choose to interpret that) serial port.
> --

This query is just going in circles:-
rPi's 3.3V is incompatible with a PC-serial-port,
but could drive a par-port.

So by successive refinement do:
HOW2 write out to par-port driver?
== use redirection and/or how it writes to tty @ boot.

Probably by starting a script from /etc/inittab ?

What's wrong with redirecting AFTER it's booted,
even if you can't see the echo of your keyin?

[Kenny McCormack]

In article <kk6hov$nr9$1...@dont-email.me>, <Avoi...@gmail.com> wrote:
...

>This query is just going in circles:-
>rPi's 3.3V is incompatible with a PC-serial-port,

Wrong.

But I'm not sure it is worth my time to explain why to you.

Suffice to say that I have my Pi's serial port connected to my Windows PC
and it works just fine, thankyouverymuch.

--
Given Bush and his insanely expensive wars (*), that we will be paying for
for generations to come, the only possible response a sensible person need
ever give, when a GOPer/TeaBagger says anything about "deficits", is a
polite snicker.

(*) Obvious money transfers between the taxpayers and Bush's moneyed
interests. Someday, we'll actually figure out a way to have a war where the
money just gets moved around and nobody (on either side) gets injured or
killed. That will be an accomplishment of which we will be justly proud.

[Eli the Bearded]

In comp.os.linux.misc, <Avoi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In olden times they booted via a teletypewriter.

In olden times they didn't run Linux. Does any Linux version of vi
support "open mode" for hardcopy terminals? Pretty sure, no. You can
use ed and ex, though. They are ideal for that sort of interface.

> So if you wanted to setup your system to do so now, could
> you write a script or make a setting to logon by paper-tty
> OR normal VGA/keybrd, depending which keybrd replied first.
> Or even better: both, like 2 mice can both talk.

"serial console linux" is a remarkably useful search term.

Elijah
------
has no idea how emacs behaves on hardcopy terminals

[Michael Black]

On Sat, 13 Apr 2013, Eli the Bearded wrote:

> In comp.os.linux.misc, <Avoi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In olden times they booted via a teletypewriter.
>
> In olden times they didn't run Linux. Does any Linux version of vi
> support "open mode" for hardcopy terminals? Pretty sure, no. You can
> use ed and ex, though. They are ideal for that sort of interface.
>

But there was a long period of Unix when serial videoterminals would have
been used. The fact that Linux is off the shelf (maybe youneed to turn
some comments into actual "code") ready to deal with serial terminal is
a reflection of that.

>> So if you wanted to setup your system to do so now, could
>> you write a script or make a setting to logon by paper-tty
>> OR normal VGA/keybrd, depending which keybrd replied first.
>> Or even better: both, like 2 mice can both talk.
>
> "serial console linux" is a remarkably useful search term.
>

He won't, but he just needs a good book about Unix or Linux. He's trying
to invent what long exists.

Michael

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 13/04/13 03:34, Michael Black wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2013, Eli the Bearded wrote:
>
>> In comp.os.linux.misc, <Avoi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> In olden times they booted via a teletypewriter.
>>
>> In olden times they didn't run Linux. Does any Linux version of vi
>> support "open mode" for hardcopy terminals? Pretty sure, no. You can
>> use ed and ex, though. They are ideal for that sort of interface.
>>
> But there was a long period of Unix when serial videoterminals would
> have been used. The fact that Linux is off the shelf (maybe youneed to
> turn some comments into actual "code") ready to deal with serial
> terminal is
> a reflection of that.
>

the point is that serial booting has very little to do with unix or
linux and a lot to do with the hardware and bios.

If the bios was capable of being driven by a serial terminal then that's
where the basic pre-boot stuff would be vectored

Once the kernel loads, well that's a different matter. THAT you can
affect in the basic configuration.

SPARCS always could be set to boot from serial: PC based stuff expected
a PS2 KB and a VGA.

[Richard Kettlewell]

Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> writes:
> In olden times they didn't run Linux. Does any Linux version of vi
> support "open mode" for hardcopy terminals? Pretty sure, no.

It looks like elvis does but vim and nvi don’t.

> has no idea how emacs behaves on hardcopy terminals

Poorly, I expect l-)

--
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

[Robert Heller]

At Sat, 13 Apr 2013 09:14:49 +0100 Richard Kettlewell <r...@greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>
> Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> writes:
> > In olden times they didn't run Linux. Does any Linux version of vi
> > support "open mode" for hardcopy terminals? Pretty sure, no.
>
> It looks like elvis does but vim and nvi don’t.
>
> > has no idea how emacs behaves on hardcopy terminals
>
> Poorly, I expect l-)

Right. Emacs is (ultimately) decended from *macros* written for teco.
Teco is / was quite happy to deal with a hard-copy terminal (eg KSR 33
or DECWriter 100). Once VT52s, VT100s, and variations on that theme
became available / the norm, editors based on [the precursor to]
termcap / curses, were developed, initially as macro addons to the
likes of teco, etc. Thus (greatly simplified!) teco + macros => emacs,
and ed + macros => vi, SOS => EDT.

Note: these editors are all quite happy with almost all glass ttys,
assuming there is a termcap or the like definitation somewhere definging
a handful of terminal 'commands' (eg move to row, col, reverse video,
insert char, #rows, #cols, etc.).

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Robert Heller <hel...@deepsoft.com> writes:
>
> Right. Emacs is (ultimately) decended from *macros* written for teco.
> Teco is / was quite happy to deal with a hard-copy terminal (eg KSR 33
> or DECWriter 100). Once VT52s, VT100s, and variations on that theme
> became available / the norm, editors based on [the precursor to]
> termcap / curses, were developed, initially as macro addons to the
> likes of teco, etc. Thus (greatly simplified!) teco + macros => emacs,
> and ed + macros => vi, SOS => EDT.

And, in fact, emacs is short for "editing macroes".

I remain somewhere between amazed and appalled that a hardcopy editor,
designed (AFAIK) with no thought whatever for cursor control or other
glass TTY features, was nonetheless powerful enough that it could be
used/abused for exactly that purpose!

[Unknown]

On Tue, 09 Apr 2013 23:31:12 +0200, Rikishi42 wrote:

> On 2013-04-09, Avoi...@gmail.com <Avoi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In olden times they booted via a teletypewriter.
>>
>> So if you wanted to setup your system to do so now, could you write a
>> script or make a setting to logon by paper-tty OR normal VGA/keybrd,
>> depending which keybrd replied first. Or even better: both, like 2 mice
>> can both talk.
>>
>> THEN how would you extend that to:
>> boot with stdOut being a existsing routine that writes to the
>> parallel-port ?
>
> Blasphemy. Surely you mean the serial port !
>
> RS232 or nothing !
>

No, the rPi's output is 3.3V which is incompatible with RS232.
The project fails if it needs extra active components.

> Have fun with your project, whish I could help. Keep us updated.
> :-)

There's an excellent http pointed to from these groups it's
*.nl* and real professional re. rPi interfacing.

[Albert van der Horst]

In article <kk726e$hgk$1...@news.xmission.com>,

Kenny McCormack <gaz...@shell.xmission.com> wrote:
>In article <kk6hov$nr9$1...@dont-email.me>, <Avoi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>...
>>This query is just going in circles:-
>>rPi's 3.3V is incompatible with a PC-serial-port,
>
>Wrong.
>
>But I'm not sure it is worth my time to explain why to you.

Maybe not, but maybe it is worth explaining it to the world.

>
>Suffice to say that I have my Pi's serial port connected to my Windows PC
>and it works just fine, thankyouverymuch.

I would very much be interested in a schematic. I get terrible suck of the
repeating and missing characters.

>
>--

Groetjes Albert
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst