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Penguin Pete Debunks "Ease of Use" in GNU/Linux Myths

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Roy Schestowitz

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Jun 23, 2011, 6:43:33 PM6/23/11
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Hey, Where Are All The Clueless Newbs Who Can't Use A Phone?

,----[ Quote ]
| Everybody's too embarrassed to admit that they don't know how to use
| a phone, so they MAKE SURE THEY KNOW HOW TO USE A PHONE. Being
| computer illiterate, however, is trendy and fashionable. It's
| considered cute in our society to giggle tee-hee-hee, "I'm a
| computer-dummy!" But to be a phone dummy? Now you're ostracized
| from society, handicapped, crippled, can't even get a job or a date!
`----

http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=hey_where_are_all_the_clueless_newbs_who&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
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Homer

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Jun 24, 2011, 12:10:46 PM6/24/11
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Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>
> http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=hey_where_are_all_the_clueless_newbs_who&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

Is that the same Penguin Pete who launched a vicious attack on Ken
Starks (of the HeliOS project that donates computers to kids), accusing
him of being a fraud, and attacking Linux advocacy in general?

http://www.thenixedreport.com/articles/tholbrook2/penguinpete.html
http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=why_i_am_not_a_linux_advocate

I don't think his sort of "advocacy" is especially useful, frankly.

Meanwhile, if Ken really is a "scam artist" as "Penguin" claims, he must
be the most impoverished one I've ever heard of, since he can't even
afford to pay for a life-saving operation on his partner Diane, after
she suffered a stroke:

http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2011/06/when-minor-and-devestating-are-used-in.html

--
K. | "The poor have flat-screen TVs."
http://slated.org | ~ Libertarian propagandist Keith
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on šky | Curtis, explaining why he thinks
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 32 days | we shouldn't tax the rich.

Roy Schestowitz

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Jun 24, 2011, 1:06:44 PM6/24/11
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____/ Homer on Friday 24 Jun 2011 17:10 : \____

> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>>
>> http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=hey_where_are_all_the_clueless_newbs_who&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
>
> Is that the same Penguin Pete who launched a vicious attack on Ken
> Starks (of the HeliOS project that donates computers to kids), accusing
> him of being a fraud, and attacking Linux advocacy in general?
>
> http://www.thenixedreport.com/articles/tholbrook2/penguinpete.html
> http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=why_i_am_not_a_linux_advocate
>
> I don't think his sort of "advocacy" is especially useful, frankly.
>
> Meanwhile, if Ken really is a "scam artist" as "Penguin" claims, he must
> be the most impoverished one I've ever heard of, since he can't even
> afford to pay for a life-saving operation on his partner Diane, after
> she suffered a stroke:
>
> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2011/06/when-minor-and-devestating-are-used-in.html

I denounced "Penguin" Pete at the time. Many people did. He did nothing like this since...

- --
~~ Best of wishes

Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)


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JeffM

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Jun 24, 2011, 3:39:34 PM6/24/11
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>Homer wrote:
>>Is that the same Penguin Pete
>>who launched a vicious attack on Ken Starks ?

>>
Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>He did nothing like this since
>
Well, that's good at least.

Among my favorite HeliOS stories are the time
he caught flack from all directions after blasting the teacher
who thought that anything without a price tag wasn't legit.

...then there was the time that the Windoze support guy
blamed Ken and his ilk for taking away work from his sort.
Grabbing Ken (US Army retired) by his ponytail
was a BIG mistake.

Homer

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Jun 24, 2011, 4:14:45 PM6/24/11
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Verily I say unto thee, that JeffM spake thusly:

> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>> Homer wrote:
>>>
>>> Is that the same Penguin Pete who launched a vicious attack on Ken
>>> Starks ?
>>
>> He did nothing like this since

AFAIAC he's got a permanent black mark against his name for that. It's
not just that he attacked Ken without any proof or provocation, it's the
fact that he attacked someone so dedicated to an altruistic cause.

> Well, that's good at least.
>
> Among my favorite HeliOS stories are the time he caught flack from all
> directions after blasting the teacher who thought that anything
> without a price tag wasn't legit.

It was more than that. She exposed herself as an anti-Linux and
pro-Microsoft fanatic, after initially feigning ignorance, but then
admitting she'd already heard of and used Linux at college, and ranting
about it being a "Windows world".

> ...then there was the time that the Windoze support guy blamed Ken and
> his ilk for taking away work from his sort. Grabbing Ken (US Army
> retired) by his ponytail was a BIG mistake.

I missed that one. Got a link?

Snit

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Jun 24, 2011, 6:12:23 PM6/24/11
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Homer stated in post lq7fd8-...@sky.matrix on 6/24/11 1:14 PM:

> Verily I say unto thee, that JeffM spake thusly:
>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>> Homer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Is that the same Penguin Pete who launched a vicious attack on Ken
>>>> Starks ?
>>>
>>> He did nothing like this since
>
> AFAIAC he's got a permanent black mark against his name for that. It's
> not just that he attacked Ken without any proof or provocation, it's the
> fact that he attacked someone so dedicated to an altruistic cause.

As you attack Schwartz for his altruistic cause. Interesting how you vilify
yourself.

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Roy Schestowitz

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Jun 24, 2011, 7:16:37 PM6/24/11
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____/ Homer on Friday 24 Jun 2011 21:14 : \____

> Verily I say unto thee, that JeffM spake thusly:
>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>> Homer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Is that the same Penguin Pete who launched a vicious attack on Ken
>>>> Starks ?
>>>
>>> He did nothing like this since
>
> AFAIAC he's got a permanent black mark against his name for that. It's
> not just that he attacked Ken without any proof or provocation, it's the
> fact that he attacked someone so dedicated to an altruistic cause.

Ken later won at least one award for his work (in the state of Texas). I think
the stereotype of Texans had some bloggers who never met him overly presumptuous.
I cannot think of Pete ever doing something so degrading apart from that (and
I insulted him for this at the time). Later on he supported me, just as Ken had done
for many years and named me as inspiration in his LXer interview.

>> Well, that's good at least.
>>
>> Among my favorite HeliOS stories are the time he caught flack from all
>> directions after blasting the teacher who thought that anything
>> without a price tag wasn't legit.
>
> It was more than that. She exposed herself as an anti-Linux and
> pro-Microsoft fanatic, after initially feigning ignorance, but then
> admitting she'd already heard of and used Linux at college, and ranting
> about it being a "Windows world".

Do you know the controversy in Texan schools regarding theism and indoctrination? It's
truly scary. It's like Saudi Arabia, the Western flavour. Google it...

Short story is, the religious lobby totally hijacked the panels and evolution
is like a dirty word there. Some go along with the "world is 6000 years old" myths...
in publicly funded schools. So the Linux phobia is the least of their troubles.

>> ...then there was the time that the Windoze support guy blamed Ken and
>> his ilk for taking away work from his sort. Grabbing Ken (US Army
>> retired) by his ponytail was a BIG mistake.
>
> I missed that one. Got a link?

Is that about the bullies from the parking lot? Those whose business he
was 'stealing' by giving kids access to Free software?

Ken is many people's hero.

- --
~~ Best of wishes

Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Homer

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Jun 24, 2011, 8:51:03 PM6/24/11
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Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:

> ____/ Homer on Friday 24 Jun 2011 21:14 : \____

> I cannot think of Pete ever doing something so degrading apart from


> that (and I insulted him for this at the time). Later on he supported
> me, just as Ken had done for many years and named me as inspiration in
> his LXer interview.

I'll take your word for it, but AFAIAC Mr. "Penguin" has about as much
chance of working his way back into my favour as Miguel "MVP" de Icaza
or that thug David "Dildo" Schlesinger. My instincts tell me he's just
bad people, and my instincts about such things are rarely wrong.

JeffM

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Jun 24, 2011, 9:43:52 PM6/24/11
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Homer

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Jun 24, 2011, 10:36:24 PM6/24/11
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Verily I say unto thee, that JeffM spake thusly:
> Homer wrote:
>> JeffM wrote:

>>> the time that the Windoze support guy blamed Ken and his ilk for
>>> taking away work from his sort. Grabbing Ken (US Army retired) by
>>> his ponytail was a BIG mistake.
>>

>> I missed that one. Got a link?
>

> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/03/tempers-flare-as-recession-creeps-into.html

Ah yes, I remember now.

The most appalling thing about this incident is that the goons concerned
attacked a /charity/ that /gives/ computers away to the /poor/. How
exactly that is supposed to adversely affect these goon's incomes, I
have no idea. Frankly it seems more like a bigoted response to Linux.

But we've all seen the type before. COLA's riddled with them.

Hadron

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Jun 25, 2011, 1:22:23 AM6/25/11
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JeffM <jef...@email.com> writes:

It figures you would believe that nonsense. It gives Rasker a run for
his money.

Roy Schestowitz

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Jun 25, 2011, 4:16:56 AM6/25/11
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____/ Homer on Saturday 25 Jun 2011 01:51 : \____

> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>> ____/ Homer on Friday 24 Jun 2011 21:14 : \____
>
>> I cannot think of Pete ever doing something so degrading apart from
>> that (and I insulted him for this at the time). Later on he supported
>> me, just as Ken had done for many years and named me as inspiration in
>> his LXer interview.
>
> I'll take your word for it, but AFAIAC Mr. "Penguin" has about as much
> chance of working his way back into my favour as Miguel "MVP" de Icaza
> or that thug David "Dildo" Schlesinger. My instincts tell me he's just
> bad people, and my instincts about such things are rarely wrong.

He is actually against them, and he supported me in 2009 when those bullies
were attacking me constantly, along with Microsoft employees (like TEs). Mono
advocacy seems dead by now, ACCESS is much smaller, and David "Dildo" Schlesinger
got laid off. He's no longer involved in FOSS in any way AFAICT. Maybe "stealth mode"
dildo business, who knows...

Speaking of layoffs, Miguel too got made redundant (or as Soviety Microsoft calls it,
got made a "useful idiot").

- --
~~ Best of wishes

Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz

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Jun 25, 2011, 4:17:44 AM6/25/11
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____/ Homer on Saturday 25 Jun 2011 03:36 : \____

> Verily I say unto thee, that JeffM spake thusly:
>> Homer wrote:
>>> JeffM wrote:
>
>>>> the time that the Windoze support guy blamed Ken and his ilk for
>>>> taking away work from his sort. Grabbing Ken (US Army retired) by
>>>> his ponytail was a BIG mistake.
>>>
>>> I missed that one. Got a link?
>>
>> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/03/tempers-flare-as-recession-creeps-into.html
>
> Ah yes, I remember now.
>
> The most appalling thing about this incident is that the goons concerned
> attacked a /charity/ that /gives/ computers away to the /poor/. How
> exactly that is supposed to adversely affect these goon's incomes, I
> have no idea. Frankly it seems more like a bigoted response to Linux.
>
> But we've all seen the type before. COLA's riddled with them.

So is Texas.

- --
~~ Best of wishes

Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Chris Ahlstrom

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Jun 25, 2011, 7:04:21 AM6/25/11
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JeffM wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

>>JeffM wrote:
>>>the time that the Windoze support guy
>>>blamed Ken and his ilk for taking away work from his sort.
>>>Grabbing Ken (US Army retired) by his ponytail
>>>was a BIG mistake.
>>>
> Homer wrote:
>>I missed that one. Got a link?
>>

> http://tinyurl.com/KenStarks-vs-WindozeSupportGuy

It wasn't a friendly approach.

We made contact just under the edge of the canopy. I say "we" made
contact...the initial contact was his right index finger stabbing into my
chest.

"It's _____ ________ hippy freaks like you that are costing us our jobs.
You got any idea how many people are getting pink slips because of your
b_________? Every time you put that ____ on someone's computer, some guy
trying to feed his family has to go home and tell his wife that he lost
his job. How about I snatch that silly little ponytail and give you a
tour of the parking lot?"

The veins in his temples were at critical mass and he physically spit as
he screamed at me in front of his van. This is where the narrative is
going to stop, and it's going to stop for two reasons. First, there's no
good way to tell the rest of the story. Second, it's because that's when
any verbal communication between him and I stopped. He made first hostile
contact and I didn't do anything but react. In the end it was no big
deal...but of the two of us...

I am the only one of the two that did not involuntarily leave his feet
that day.

Besides, that "silly little ponytail" represents all the hair I have
left. Just protectin' the real estate.

--
I can feel for her because, although I have never been an Alaskan prostitute
dancing on the bar in a spangled dress, I still get very bored with washing
and ironing and dishwashing and cooking day after relentless day.
-- Betty MacDonald

Homer

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Jun 25, 2011, 3:54:23 PM6/25/11
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Verily I say unto thee, that Chris Ahlstrom spake thusly:

> "It's _____ ________ hippy freaks like you that are costing us our
> jobs. You got any idea how many people are getting pink slips
> because of your b_________? Every time you put that ____ on
> someone's computer, some guy trying to feed his family has to go
> home and tell his wife that he lost his job. How about I snatch
> that silly little ponytail and give you a tour of the parking lot?"

Well, now we know where DooFy works.

--
K. | "The poor have flat-screen TVs."
http://slated.org | ~ Libertarian propagandist Keith
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on šky | Curtis, explaining why he thinks

kernel 2.6.31.5, up 33 days | we shouldn't tax the rich.

chrisv

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Jun 27, 2011, 9:20:05 AM6/27/11
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> "It's _____ ________ hippy freaks like you that are costing us our jobs.
> You got any idea how many people are getting pink slips because of your
> b_________? Every time you put that ____ on someone's computer, some guy
> trying to feed his family has to go home and tell his wife that he lost
> his job. How about I snatch that silly little ponytail and give you a
> tour of the parking lot?"

Another POS who thinks the world owes him a job.

Apparently, too stupid to understand that money saved by not buying
overpriced software *still gets spent*, supporting jobs elsewhere.

Antonio Fabrizi

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Jun 27, 2011, 9:30:09 AM6/27/11
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useless shit "chrisv" <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:pp0h07d2ncugqlh04...@4ax.com...

>> "It's _____ ________ hippy freaks like you that are costing us our
>> jobs.
>> You got any idea how many people are getting pink slips because of your
>> b_________? Every time you put that ____ on someone's computer, some
>> guy
>> trying to feed his family has to go home and tell his wife that he lost
>> his job. How about I snatch that silly little ponytail and give you a
>> tour of the parking lot?"
>
> Another POS who thinks the world owes him a job.

"chrisv" is the same useless piece of shit as always.

"chrisv" is a liar. "chrisv" is a useless piece of shit.


Homer

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Jun 27, 2011, 10:25:24 AM6/27/11
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Verily I say unto thee, that chrisv spake thusly:

He's like a cottage weaver blaming the effects of the Industrial
Revolution ... on a charity worker who gives second-hand clothes
away to the poor.

--
K. | "The poor have flat-screen TVs."
http://slated.org | ~ Libertarian propagandist Keith
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on šky | Curtis, explaining why he thinks

kernel 2.6.31.5, up 35 days | we shouldn't tax the rich.

Rex Ballard

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Jun 30, 2011, 9:07:22 AM6/30/11
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On Friday, June 24, 2011 12:10:46 PM UTC-4, Homer wrote:
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
> >
> > http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=hey_where_are_all_the_clueless_newbs_who&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

Pete makes some good points in this article, pointing out that many people have no trouble navigating an Android Phone or an iPhone, but freak when they see the Linux GUI instead of Windows, and many still struggle with the Windows GUI.

Pete probably doesn't remember the days when we used to access computers via a terminal, or we had to use CP/M or MS-DOS and there was no GUI, and getting support over the telephone often meant spending hours with a customer who had typed a semicolon instead of a colon, or a dash instead of a dot.

Apple introduced the Mac as "A computer for the rest of us", but it was very expensive, and any real applications like MacProject were painfully slow. Microsoft tried to introduce Windows, but 1.0, 2.0, 286, 386, and 3.0 were very slow, buggy, ran hardly any applications, and required the most expensive hardware available on the market - it was cheaper to buy a UNIX server or workstation and some X-terminals or some X11 software for the PC.

Windows 3.1 was Microsoft's crowning accomplishment. For 3.0, they had offered a free help line on a 1-800 number, and came up with thousands of "frequently asked questions" - then figured out how to provide those answers in the user interface so that all you had to do was hover, hit f1, or right click the mouse to get context sensitive help. It really was an amazing achievement - if Microsoft deserves a patent, that would be it, but it would be impossible to define the actual patent implementation without publishing strategic source code - besides, it would have expired by now. Of course, Microsoft bought much of the UI from HP, and "borrowed" other parts, especially the UI for Windows 95, from Linux projects like FVWM. Still, with all that context sensitive help, Microsoft was able to grow the PC using population from about 50 million users to around 500 million users in less than 10 years. An amazing feat for any business. The only industry that grew faster was the Internet, with it's millions of UNIX and Linux servers - which grew from 2 million users in 1993 to nearly 500 million by 1997. Much of that early growth was fueled by the Winsock shareware and Mosaic Web Browser, published in 1993. Microsoft's web browser and internet stack wouldn't be part of a stable Windows 95B until April of 1996.

Linux, with it's open source applications, many dating back to the "terminal" days, had user interfaces ranging from command-line to "CHUI", to Athena 2d, to Motif, to Olit, and eventually to GTK/Gnome and QT/KDE.

Google (and several other Linux advocates) saw that having a consistent user interface approach, and keeping application user interfaces separate from their service modules would result in something far easier to use. The result was Chrome and Android. Android is a full blown Linux server with lots of service applications, which can provide information that can be presented using any compatible GUI. In most cases, the service app is tied to the GUI, but when there are multiple apps capable of handling the information, a list of those options is offered.

As a result, each application can be very simple. Rather than a huge complex monolithic application that has to be able to do everything imaginable to any type of office document, each application can have a very specific purpose, working on a specific type of information, and the user gets the ability to choose from thousands of apps, most of which are easier to use than the cell phone itself.

> Is that the same Penguin Pete who launched a vicious attack on Ken
> Starks (of the HeliOS project that donates computers to kids), accusing
> him of being a fraud, and attacking Linux advocacy in general?
>
> http://www.thenixedreport.com/articles/tholbrook2/penguinpete.html

I know what Pete went though. In 2007, I was the one having the stroke, and after going into a surgical procedure that the insurance company decided (after the fact) was only partially covered, leaving me with a huge debt, they realized they couldn't use surgery to fix the problem, and had to go with the "Passive" approach.

It took almost 3 months to get back to where I could walk, eat, and get back to work. I'd lost the left side, and was left-handed.

Ironically, when I did start posting again, even though I had posted that I had had a stroke, the WinTrolls still had their fun with the ad-homonym attacks.

I finally just ignored them.

> http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=why_i_am_not_a_linux_advocate
>
> I don't think his sort of "advocacy" is especially useful, frankly.

I didn't see anything in the article than indicated that pete was even aware of the nature of the problem. There are many open source advocates who have to stop working on their OSS projects because their paying job responsibilities have increased and they have to do more "Real Work" to meet deadlines and other business commitments.

Many developers and advocates work on OSS with the permission of their employers, and that permission is ristricted. Their OSS participation can't negatively impact their jobs, and they can't doing things that would expose the company to legal liabilities (posting as a representative of the company...)

> Meanwhile, if Ken really is a "scam artist" as "Penguin" claims, he must
> be the most impoverished one I've ever heard of, since he can't even
> afford to pay for a life-saving operation on his partner Diane, after
> she suffered a stroke:

> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2011/06/when-minor-and-devestating-are-used-in.html

Ken stated in the article that he and diane were in that age where they were old enough for Social Security, but not yet old enough for Medicare, and they hadn't been able to afford to extend their COBRA long enough to bridge the gap.

Since they had some assets, probably retirement funds, they didn't qualify for indigent care. At the same time, they didn't want to drain their entire retirement nest-egg to pay for a surgery that would have left them homeless and indigent for the rest of their lives.

Like so many millions in the United States - they were exposed to all the risks, and getting none of the benefits of all those insurance premiums they had paid to their respective health insurance companies for decades.

I hope Diane makes a speedy recovery and will pray for her. I was lucky, I was able to tolerate the pain as my brain found new pathways to the different parts of my body. It often felt like a nail being driven into my arm or leg, but enduring it and not seeking the pain killers helped me recover parts of my body I thought I had lost for good. Today, you wouldn't even know I'd had a stroke.

For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.

Roy Schestowitz

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Jun 30, 2011, 11:02:27 AM6/30/11
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____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____

That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though) ;-

- --
~~ Best of wishes

Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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RonB

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Jun 30, 2011, 2:35:27 PM6/30/11
to
On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:02:27 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____

>> I hope Diane makes a speedy recovery and will pray for her. I was


>> lucky, I was able to tolerate the pain as my brain found new pathways
>> to the different parts of my body. It often felt like a nail being
>> driven into my arm or leg, but enduring it and not seeking the pain
>> killers helped me recover parts of my body I thought I had lost for
>> good. Today, you wouldn't even know I'd had a stroke.
>>
>> For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
>
> That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though) ;-

Religious belief should be "censored" now?

BTW, Rex, congratulations. Sounds like quite a story.

--
RonB
Registered Linux User #498581
CentOS 5.6 or VectorLinux Deluxe 6.0

chrisv

unread,
Jun 30, 2011, 3:37:35 PM6/30/11
to
Rex Ballard wrote:

>Ironically, when I did start posting again, even though
>I had posted that I had had a stroke, the WinTrolls still
>had their fun with the ad-homonym attacks.

The Wintrolls stroke each other.

--
"There is more truth in one of them than you and your COLA gang." -
Hadron Quark, defending the group of "DFS, billwg, ErikF, flatfish,
etc."

Tessa Hollander

unread,
Jun 30, 2011, 3:56:31 PM6/30/11
to

stupid jackass "chrisv" <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:4qjp07dq7tm4pk9gi...@4ax.com...

> Rex Ballard wrote:
>
>>Ironically, when I did start posting again, even though
>>I had posted that I had had a stroke, the WinTrolls still
>>had their fun with the ad-homonym attacks.
>
> The Wintrolls stroke each other.
>


turds and useless shit like "chrisv" leg hump each other with a reach-around
"happy ending."

ask marti for a free ride down the hershey-highway you stupid jackass.

"chrisv" is a liar. "chrisv" is a piece of shit.


Big Steel

unread,
Jun 30, 2011, 4:00:59 PM6/30/11
to

I guess Ballard and his obsession with MS drove him to his stroke. It's
a shame that people like him hit the wall like that.

Roy Schestowitz

unread,
Jun 30, 2011, 4:06:57 PM6/30/11
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

____/ RonB on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 19:35 : \____

Not censored (maybe self-censored, not compulsory). :-)

- --
~~ Best of wishes

Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Homer

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Jun 30, 2011, 4:32:38 PM6/30/11
to
Verily I say unto thee, that RonB spake thusly:

> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:02:27 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>> ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____

>>> For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.


>>
>> That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though)
>> ;-
>
> Religious belief should be "censored" now?

I'm not religious, but equally I'm not venomously anti-religious - a
disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral about
religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the moral
tenets expounded by certain religions, even if I don't share their
members' faith. In fact, in many ways some members of the anti-religion
movement behave like /it/ is a religion, and a rather Jihadist one at
that. It's spiteful, bigoted and unnecessary, IMO, like homophobia. The
fact that I'm not religious shouldn't mean I'm at war with those who
are.

--

K. | "The poor have flat-screen TVs."
http://slated.org | ~ Libertarian propagandist Keith
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on šky | Curtis, explaining why he thinks

kernel 2.6.31.5, up 38 days | we shouldn't tax the rich.

Roy Schestowitz

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Jun 30, 2011, 5:35:08 PM6/30/11
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

____/ Homer on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 21:32 : \____

> Verily I say unto thee, that RonB spake thusly:
>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:02:27 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>> ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____
>
>>>> For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
>>>
>>> That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though)
>>> ;-
>>
>> Religious belief should be "censored" now?
>
> I'm not religious, but equally I'm not venomously anti-religious - a
> disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
> fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral about
> religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the moral
> tenets expounded by certain religions, even if I don't share their
> members' faith. In fact, in many ways some members of the anti-religion
> movement behave like /it/ is a religion, and a rather Jihadist one at
> that. It's spiteful, bigoted and unnecessary, IMO, like homophobia. The
> fact that I'm not religious shouldn't mean I'm at war with those who
> are.

What if a school teaches your kid that dinosaurs lived with humans (for example)?
And what if a good GP who saved lives gets no credit and instead prayer is
getting attribution? In places like Texas religion is at war against science,
and the ones picking a bone have an agenda.

Since you've mentioned homophobia, it's usually religions that adhere to it.

- --
~~ Best of wishes

Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Homer

unread,
Jun 30, 2011, 6:56:43 PM6/30/11
to
Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:

> ____/ Homer on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 21:32 : \____
>> Verily I say unto thee, that RonB spake thusly:
>>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:02:27 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>>> ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____
>>>>>
>>>>> For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
>>>>
>>>> That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though)
>>>> ;-
>>>
>>> Religious belief should be "censored" now?
>>
>> I'm not religious, but equally I'm not venomously anti-religious - a
>> disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
>> fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral
>> about religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the
>> moral tenets expounded by certain religions, even if I don't share
>> their members' faith. In fact, in many ways some members of the
>> anti-religion movement behave like /it/ is a religion, and a rather
>> Jihadist one at that. It's spiteful, bigoted and unnecessary, IMO,
>> like homophobia. The fact that I'm not religious shouldn't mean I'm
>> at war with those who are.
>
> What if a school teaches your kid that dinosaurs lived with humans
> (for example)?

My school taught me that an atom is a ball with electrons flying around
the outside of it in a linear fashion. That turned out to be inaccurate
too. Should I have launched a Jihad against all science because of that
fact?

I can think of far more important things to worry about than the origin
of the species, whatever it may be. Presumably those Texan children get
taught to read, write and count, without Darwinism or Creationism being
a problem. If people choose to teach their children their beliefs, then
that's none of my business. Those children grow up eventually, discover
this miraculous thing called an opinion, and decide for themselves what
to believe in. I'm not going to persecute people for merely /having/ an
opinion, especially if the opinion has no detrimental effect on my life
whatsoever. They're not attacking me, so why should I attack them?

> And what if a good GP who saved lives gets no credit and instead
> prayer is getting attribution?

No credit? Sounds serious.

Personally I don't believe in prayer, because I don't believe there's a
God to pray /to/, but I've heard enough doctors give up to know science
doesn't have all the answers, and I've seen enough people beat the odds
to know there's a lot to be said for mind over matter, even if they use
some dubious faith to encourage (or comfort) them. Who am I (or you) to
tell them they can't draw strength from their beliefs, however dubious?

> In places like Texas religion is at war against science

Maybe, but who fired the starter pistol?

From what I've seen (elsewhere, at least), it's the anti-religious nuts
who are the /aggressors/, and the religious people just want to be left
in peace. I don't see them hurling missiles in /my/ direction. Do you?

> and the ones picking a bone have an agenda.

Maybe their "agenda" is for people to stop persecuting them.

> Since you've mentioned homophobia, it's usually religions that adhere
> to it.

Homophobia, anti-religion, whatever ... it's all bigotry. One is not an
excuse for the other.

Snit

unread,
Jun 30, 2011, 8:40:26 PM6/30/11
to
Homer stated in post 643vd8-...@sky.matrix on 6/30/11 1:32 PM:

> Verily I say unto thee, that RonB spake thusly:
>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:02:27 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>> ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____
>
>>>> For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
>>>
>>> That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though)
>>> ;-
>>
>> Religious belief should be "censored" now?
>
> I'm not religious,

You are *heavily* religious, with your bizarre view of OSS as your religion.

> but equally I'm not venomously anti-religious - a
> disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
> fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral about
> religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the moral
> tenets expounded by certain religions, even if I don't share their
> members' faith. In fact, in many ways some members of the anti-religion
> movement behave like /it/ is a religion, and a rather Jihadist one at
> that. It's spiteful, bigoted and unnecessary, IMO, like homophobia.

Or your views on non-OSS software. Sure.

> The fact that I'm not religious shouldn't mean I'm at war with those who are.

You are at war with those who do not share your religion. It shows very
strongly, even if you do not see it.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Snit

unread,
Jun 30, 2011, 8:43:13 PM6/30/11
to
Homer stated in post bibvd8-...@sky.matrix on 6/30/11 3:56 PM:

I think it is important to teach science in school. I find it sad you do
not agree, but given your past admission that evidence and science are not
important to the way you build your views (at least in some areas), I am not
surprised.

> I'm not going to persecute people for merely /having/ an
> opinion, especially if the opinion has no detrimental effect on my life
> whatsoever. They're not attacking me, so why should I attack them?

People can have whatever opinions they want - but that does not give them
the right to teach religion as science.
...


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


RonB

unread,
Jul 1, 2011, 1:24:59 AM7/1/11
to
On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 21:32:38 +0100, Homer wrote:

> Verily I say unto thee, that RonB spake thusly:
>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:02:27 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>> ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____
>
>>>> For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
>>>
>>> That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though) ;-
>>
>> Religious belief should be "censored" now?
>
> I'm not religious, but equally I'm not venomously anti-religious - a
> disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
> fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral about
> religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the moral
> tenets expounded by certain religions, even if I don't share their
> members' faith. In fact, in many ways some members of the anti-religion
> movement behave like /it/ is a religion, and a rather Jihadist one at
> that. It's spiteful, bigoted and unnecessary, IMO, like homophobia. The
> fact that I'm not religious shouldn't mean I'm at war with those who
> are.

I think you've got zealots on both sides of the fence. I'm not ashamed of
my religious beliefs but I don't see any reason to shove them down
anyone's throat either. Although I'm quite willing to defend my beliefs
when they're needlessly attacked.

RonB

unread,
Jul 1, 2011, 1:27:57 AM7/1/11
to
On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 22:35:08 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:

> What if a school teaches your kid that dinosaurs lived with humans (for
> example)? And what if a good GP who saved lives gets no credit and
> instead prayer is getting attribution? In places like Texas religion is
> at war against science, and the ones picking a bone have an agenda.

Evolutionary "science" (so-called) has been at war with religion for over
a century. Personally I find the Darwinian "just-so" stories amusing. But
this is really fodder for another newsgroup.

Gregory Shearman

unread,
Jul 1, 2011, 1:47:04 AM7/1/11
to
On 2011-06-30, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
> My school taught me that an atom is a ball with electrons flying around
> the outside of it in a linear fashion. That turned out to be inaccurate
> too. Should I have launched a Jihad against all science because of that
> fact?

What is it now? A bunch of muons or gluons or whatever... I can't keep
up.

> Personally I don't believe in prayer, because I don't believe there's a
> God to pray /to/, but I've heard enough doctors give up to know science
> doesn't have all the answers, and I've seen enough people beat the odds
> to know there's a lot to be said for mind over matter, even if they use
> some dubious faith to encourage (or comfort) them. Who am I (or you) to
> tell them they can't draw strength from their beliefs, however dubious?

I'm of the opinion that prayer works like a placebo. There's an
expectation of success and so this carries through with a positive
attitude towards success... better than negativity.

--
Regards,
Gregory.
Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

Roy Schestowitz

unread,
Jul 1, 2011, 2:55:39 AM7/1/11
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

____/ RonB on Friday 01 Jul 2011 06:27 : \____

> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 22:35:08 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>
>> What if a school teaches your kid that dinosaurs lived with humans (for
>> example)? And what if a good GP who saved lives gets no credit and
>> instead prayer is getting attribution? In places like Texas religion is
>> at war against science, and the ones picking a bone have an agenda.
>
> Evolutionary "science" (so-called) has been at war with religion for over
> a century. Personally I find the Darwinian "just-so" stories amusing. But
> this is really fodder for another newsgroup.

Okay, fair enough.. :-)

- --
~~ Best of wishes

Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz

unread,
Jul 1, 2011, 2:59:10 AM7/1/11
to
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

____/ Gregory Shearman on Friday 01 Jul 2011 06:47 : \____

The problem comes when people replace real treatment with this placebo, like when
the evangelicals have people throw away their pills (and then die) so that
they can do their charlatan gig and make a lot of money.

- --
~~ Best of wishes

Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz

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Jul 1, 2011, 3:00:18 AM7/1/11
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

____/ Homer on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 23:56 : \____

I think you underestimate the seriousness of the situation in Texas. Do some YouTube or
Google search around that subject and you will see. I too used to think as you do.

- --
~~ Best of wishes

Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz

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Jul 1, 2011, 3:04:43 AM7/1/11
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

____/ Snit on Friday 01 Jul 2011 01:43 : \____

No, not "religion"... "intelligent design" (paint religion as a science)... the religious
dogma fund this lobby group, the Discovery Institute, to substitute real science
with bogus one. Similar to the way Microsoft pays front groups to pretend to
represent small businesses.

The situation in the UK is vastly different, so people don't appreciate that
it's a problem (globally). Heck, in the US, some schools will teach kids
that the Earth is 6,000 years old, that radiometric dating is a scam,
and diversity of species is "just a theory" (yeah, like gravity!).

- --
~~ Best of wishes

Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Homer

unread,
Jul 1, 2011, 5:37:41 AM7/1/11
to
Verily I say unto thee, that Gregory Shearman spake thusly:

> On 2011-06-30, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>
>> My school taught me that an atom is a ball with electrons flying around
>> the outside of it in a linear fashion. That turned out to be inaccurate
>> too. Should I have launched a Jihad against all science because of that
>> fact?
>
> What is it now? A bunch of muons or gluons or whatever... I can't keep
> up.

Actually I wasn't referring to its subcomponents, but quantum states,
analysis of which shows that describing (or visualising) an atom as a
ball is a gross simplification. The electron clouds surrounding atoms
have highly irregular orbitals that produce many different shapes.

>> Personally I don't believe in prayer, because I don't believe there's a
>> God to pray /to/, but I've heard enough doctors give up to know science
>> doesn't have all the answers, and I've seen enough people beat the odds
>> to know there's a lot to be said for mind over matter, even if they use
>> some dubious faith to encourage (or comfort) them. Who am I (or you) to
>> tell them they can't draw strength from their beliefs, however dubious?
>
> I'm of the opinion that prayer works like a placebo. There's an
> expectation of success and so this carries through with a positive
> attitude towards success... better than negativity.

Could be. Whatever it is, it's their business, and it doesn't trigger
some irrational fear response that make me want to persecute them.

Homer

unread,
Jul 1, 2011, 6:10:24 AM7/1/11
to
Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
> ____/ Homer on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 23:56 : \____

>> Homophobia, anti-religion, whatever ... it's all bigotry. One is not
>> an excuse for the other.
>
> I think you underestimate the seriousness of the situation in Texas.
> Do some YouTube or Google search around that subject and you will see.
> I too used to think as you do.

I Googled for "Texas creationists" and the first hit reveals a bill to
outlaw discrimination against creationists.

Good. I'm all for outlawing discrimination.

The more I look into this subject, the clearer it is that creationists
simply want to be left in peace to follow their beliefs, but they have
to contend with a constant barrage of attacks from anti-religious nuts
who refuse to just live and let live. Sounds strangely familiar...

Chris Ahlstrom

unread,
Jul 1, 2011, 6:21:31 AM7/1/11
to
Gregory Shearman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 2011-06-30, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>> My school taught me that an atom is a ball with electrons flying around
>> the outside of it in a linear fashion. That turned out to be inaccurate
>> too. Should I have launched a Jihad against all science because of that
>> fact?
>
> What is it now? A bunch of muons or gluons or whatever... I can't keep
> up.

It's a collection of "Hadrons". :-D

Good sigmonster:

--
Some people pray for more than they are willing to work for.

Homer

unread,
Jul 1, 2011, 6:20:59 AM7/1/11
to
Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:

> The problem comes when people replace real treatment with this


> placebo, like when the evangelicals have people throw away their pills
> (and then die)

Yes, that is foolish, but then there are also times when medical
treatment isn't much help either, or indeed actually causes death.

Both my parents died from diseases they contracted /inside/ the
hospitals they were admitted to, for example.

> so that they can do their charlatan gig and make a lot of money.

I've often thought the same thing about medical practitioners.

Homer

unread,
Jul 1, 2011, 6:30:40 AM7/1/11
to
Verily I say unto thee, that RonB spake thusly:
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 22:35:08 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>
>> What if a school teaches your kid that dinosaurs lived with humans
>> (for example)? And what if a good GP who saved lives gets no credit
>> and instead prayer is getting attribution? In places like Texas
>> religion is at war against science, and the ones picking a bone have
>> an agenda.
>
> Evolutionary "science" (so-called) has been at war with religion for
> over a century. Personally I find the Darwinian "just-so" stories
> amusing. But this is really fodder for another newsgroup.

And moreover, it should be the subject of /civilised/ debate, not some
kind of Jihad to terminate people who merely hold a different opinion,
as the anti-religious movement seems determined to do.

Gregory Shearman

unread,
Jul 1, 2011, 7:39:01 AM7/1/11
to
On 2011-07-01, Roy Schestowitz <newsg...@schestowitz.com> wrote:
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> ____/ Gregory Sh