grub is inscrutable
Brandon J. Van Every
- some distros detect Windows and will set up a dual boot (Kubuntu)
- other distros won't (Fedora Core 6)
- most distros won't detect other Linux distros. (both of the above)
Triple boot is a major PITA.
- you can get stuck with a particular distro due to packaging issues.
For instance, the IBM Cell SDK cross-compiler + simulator is all RPM.
That's too complicated to run through Alien, I think.
I've Googled over and over again, trying to get Grub *itself* to boot
Windows. I can't find a reasonable working answer for it. What does
work is the "dd" magic: copying the Linux boot sector and using the
Windows boot loader to load Linux. It's hackerish, but it's relatively
simple, and it works. Whereas whenever I try to read someone's "use
Grub to control all the booting" directions, I get several pages of
gibberish, my eyes glaze over, and whatever I try never works. So
screw it. I conclude that Grub is overcomplicated junk, and "dd magic"
is the way to go.
This kind of nonsense has got to be putting off a percentage of
technical users. I've been at this 3 weeks and I'm on my 4th OS
install. If I didn't have an actual goal, a hard requirement to run
the IBM Cell SDK, I would have blown this off long ago. It has become
abundantly clear to me why all my techie friends with paying jobs own
Macs.
Cheers,
Brandon Van Every
graeme
Grub works fine for me, background picture and all. I suggest you
search the net for Smart Boot Manager (which I use in addition to
grub).
Roy Schestowitz
Can Mac dual boot? (no, not virtualisation)
Why can't consumers buy dual-boot machines? I mean, the price would be the
same, would it not? See [1,2,3] to see how Microsoft fits into this
equation.
Is Windows part of the problem? See [4,5].
In anye event, see [6,7].
____
[1] Dell's secret Linux fling
,----[ Quote ]
| Dell's love affair with Linux is a clandestine affair these days,
| conducted in secret, away from disapproving eyes. But now the pair
| have been spotted in China.
|
| When Michael Dell first saw the web-footed beauty, he fell head over
| heels. Six years ago Dell pledged a series of strategic investments
| in Linux companies, including Eazel and Red Hat. The romance
| attracted the disapproval of Microsoft however, and barely lasted
| weeks. Very quietly, Dell dumped the bird.
|
| It later emerged that Microsoft's OEM enforcer Joachim Kempin had
| promised Steve Ballmer that he'd be putting the screws on PCb
| uilders, or "hitting the OEMs harder" in his words.
`----
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/09/dell_linux_china/
[2] Microsoft 'killed Dell Linux' - States
,----[ Quote ]
| The States' remedy hearing opened in DC yesterday, and States attorney
| Steven Kuney produced a devastating memo from Kempin, then in charge of
| Microsoft's OEM business, written after Judge Jackson had ordered his
| break-up of the company. Kempin raises the possibility of threatening
| Dell and other PC builders which promote Linux.
|
| "I'm thinking of hitting the OEMs harder than in the past with anti-Linux.
| ... they should do a delicate dance," Kempin wrote to Ballmer, in what is
| sure to be a memorable addition to the phrases ("knife the baby", "cut off
| the air supply") with which Microsoft enriched the English language in the
| first trial. Unlike those two, this is not contested.
|
| [...]
|
| Earlier memos described that it was "untenable" that a key Microsoft
| partner was promoting Linux. Kuney revealed that Dell disbanded its Linux
| business unit in early 2001. Dell quietly pulled Linux from its desktop PCs
| in the summer of 2001, IDG's Ashlee Vance discovered subsequently, six
| months after we heard Michael Dell declare his love of Linux on the desktop
| the previous winter.
|
| Compaq was also mentioned in other memos, with Microsoft taking the line
| that OEMs should "meet demand but not help create demand" for Linux.
`----
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/03/19/microsoft_killed_dell_linux_states/
[3] Jury Hears Microsoft Competition Suit
,----[ Quote ]
| A judge on Friday told jurors they must accept as fact that a
| federal court found in 1999 that Microsoft holds a monopoly over
| computer operating systems and that it restricted computer
| manufacturers' ability to use competing systems.
|
| [...]
|
| She said she'll show that the company used its monopoly power
| to exclude competition and control prices and that it conspired with
| other companies to restrain trade, maintaining what she called a
| chokehold on software competitors and computer manufacturers.
`----
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061201/microsoft_trial.html?.v=1
[4] Vista scoots to new boot, but it's still kinda rooted
,----[ Quote ]
| While Microsoft would like the world to believe that anyone running Windows
| has no need of any other operating system, that attitude doesn?t cut much
| mustard with many of its users.
|
| Why settle for one OS when your PC is easily capable of running two or
| more?
|
| [...]
|
| One of the more questionable tactics that Microsoft has implemented in
| Vista is to automatically overwrite any existing MBR during the
| installation process without asking if you mind or giving you an option
| to back up.
|
| Microsoft says that the Windows installation system can't intelligently
| interrogate an existing non-MS MBR, although such features are quite
| common in the install routine for other OSes.
|
| It also argues that an "official" Vista MBR is required for security
| features -- such as measured boot, which works with Trusted Platform
| Module (TPM)-enabled chips to check that the OS hasn't been hacked or
| altered each time it boots -- to work correctly.
`----
[5] Microsoft used undocumented Windows APIs - Iowa testimony
,----[ Quote ]
| Alepin had earlier claimed that Microsoft ran special demonstration
| programs whose sole purpose was to crash rival products and alleged
| that the company had subverted developers who used Microsoft's
| version of Java 'thinking they were developing multi-platform
| applications, but were actually developing Windows-specific
| applications'.
`----
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/101947/microsoft-used-undocumented-windows-apis-iowa-testimony.html
[6] Are You Scared of Dual Booting Linux?
,----[ Quote ]
| Specifically, a crashing while managing the partitions created an
| expensive paperweight. While I doubt this situation isn't reversible
| (as that isn't the point of this article), I wonder how many people
| are actually scared of dual booting Linux.
`----
http://www.seopher.com/articles/are_you_scared_of_dual_booting_linux
[7] EasyBCD 1.51 - Dual Boot Vista and Anything!
,----[ Quote ]
| Dual boot Windows Vista with BSD, Mac OS X, Linux, SkyOS, FreeBSD,
| ReactOS, Longhorn, Windows 9x, Windows NT, Windows 2000, and
| more with NeoSmart Technologies' EasyBCD 1.51. All it takes is
| one click, and you can configure Vista to boot into virtually
| anything!
`----
http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/304
--
~~ Best regards
Roy S. Schestowitz | Previous signature has been conceded
http://Schestowitz.com | Open Prospects Ś PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Tasks: 130 total, 1 running, 127 sleeping, 0 stopped, 2 zombie
http://iuron.com - knowledge engine, not a search engine
Joel Mayes
Assuming Windows is in the first partition...
title Windows XP
root (hd0,0)
makeactive
chainloader +1
This is in the Grub documentation and in the grub config for most distros (commented out).
Cheers
Joel
![[H]omer's profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjWMQWyYwHeIwxhG3nGUeGWmLQD0R8TeZrvdWDiv5-2S_z3rHg=s40-c)
[H]omer
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:59:23 -0800, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>> In the past 3 weeks I've learned:
>> - some distros detect Windows and will set up a dual boot (Kubuntu)
>> - other distros won't (Fedora Core 6)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Liar.
> Grub works fine for me,
And me.
--
K.
http://slated.org - Slated, Rated & Blogged
.----
| "We shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support
| any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the
| success of liberty." - John F. Kennedy
`----
Fedora Core release 5 (Bordeaux) on sky, running kernel 2.6.18-1.2849.fc6
11:31:09 up 59 days, 3:52, 3 users, load average: 0.06, 0.05, 0.11
Linonut
> In the past 3 weeks I've learned:
> - some distros detect Windows and will set up a dual boot (Kubuntu)
> - other distros won't (Fedora Core 6)
> - most distros won't detect other Linux distros. (both of the above)
> Triple boot is a major PITA.
> - you can get stuck with a particular distro due to packaging issues.
> For instance, the IBM Cell SDK cross-compiler + simulator is all RPM.
> That's too complicated to run through Alien, I think.
>
> I've Googled over and over again, trying to get Grub *itself* to boot
> Windows. I can't find a reasonable working answer for it. What does
> work is the "dd" magic: copying the Linux boot sector and using the
> Windows boot loader to load Linux. It's hackerish, but it's relatively
> simple, and it works. Whereas whenever I try to read someone's "use
> Grub to control all the booting" directions, I get several pages of
> gibberish, my eyes glaze over, and whatever I try never works. So
> screw it. I conclude that Grub is overcomplicated junk, and "dd magic"
> is the way to go.
Lots of luck with that one.
> This kind of nonsense has got to be putting off a percentage of
> technical users. I've been at this 3 weeks and I'm on my 4th OS
> install. If I didn't have an actual goal, a hard requirement to run
> the IBM Cell SDK, I would have blown this off long ago. It has become
> abundantly clear to me why all my techie friends with paying jobs own
> Macs.
Oh. My. God.
And you have the nerve to call yourself a technical user.
--
Windows -- Microsoft's great gavage.
yttrx
If you can't understand how grub works, then you're not a technical
user.
-----yttrx
Bob Hauck
<bvan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> For instance, the IBM Cell SDK cross-compiler + simulator is all RPM.
> That's too complicated to run through Alien, I think.
Openoffice.org works fine with alien, and it's pretty complicated. I
would think a self-described techie would try it before assuming it does
not work.
Cross-development tools tend to be pretty self-contained IME.
> I've Googled over and over again, trying to get Grub *itself* to boot
> Windows.
You have to chain-load. Like this from my Debian Sarge setup:
# This entry automatically added by the Debian installer for a non-linux
# OS on /dev/hda2
title Microsoft Windows XP Professional
root (hd0,1)
savedefault
makeactive
chainloader +1
This is well-documented, and many distros will do it automatically.
> This kind of nonsense has got to be putting off a percentage of
> technical users.
Despite your claims, it is well documented. But most people use distros
that set it up automatically. Back in 1994 it was an issue, but not so
much any more.
--
-| Bob Hauck
-| Hooray for San Fancisco values!
-| http://www.haucks.org/
ray
> In the past 3 weeks I've learned:
> - some distros detect Windows and will set up a dual boot (Kubuntu)
> - other distros won't (Fedora Core 6)
> - most distros won't detect other Linux distros. (both of the above)
> Triple boot is a major PITA.
Why is that? I have at least three systems on every computer in the house
(five at last count) and up to six on some.
Kevin Wilcox
> In the past 3 weeks I've learned:
> - some distros detect Windows and will set up a dual boot (Kubuntu)
> - other distros won't (Fedora Core 6)
> - most distros won't detect other Linux distros. (both of the above)
> Triple boot is a major PITA.
> - you can get stuck with a particular distro due to packaging issues.
> For instance, the IBM Cell SDK cross-compiler + simulator is all RPM.
> That's too complicated to run through Alien, I think.
>
> I've Googled over and over again, trying to get Grub *itself* to boot
> Windows. I can't find a reasonable working answer for it. What does
> work is the "dd" magic: copying the Linux boot sector and using the
> Windows boot loader to load Linux. It's hackerish, but it's relatively
> simple, and it works. Whereas whenever I try to read someone's "use
> Grub to control all the booting" directions, I get several pages of
> gibberish, my eyes glaze over, and whatever I try never works. So
> screw it. I conclude that Grub is overcomplicated junk, and "dd magic"
> is the way to go.
I have noticed this myself and have not been able
to diagnose what is or isn't happening. Someday
when I have the time I will document what the
symptoms are so that possibly it can be fixed.
It does appear to be related to the particular
distribution because the same version of Grub will
work with the same disks with a different
distribution.
I can only suspect that the distribution packager
is somehow customizing Grub and in turn making it
incompatible with the system it is being installed
to.
> This kind of nonsense has got to be putting off a percentage of
> technical users. I've been at this 3 weeks and I'm on my 4th OS
> install. If I didn't have an actual goal, a hard requirement to run
> the IBM Cell SDK, I would have blown this off long ago. It has become
> abundantly clear to me why all my techie friends with paying jobs own
> Macs.
Technical users will find a way to make it
function according to their particular needs.
The layperson will however walk away with an
unfavorable impression of Linux.
This is unfortunate and needs to be addressed.
One reason for the Mac's surge in popularity,
aside from tagging along with the iPod's
popularity of course, is that the Mac is the
ultimate computer appliance. It just works, is
relatively immune from security problems and is an
attractive albeit expensive alternative to Windows
based systems.
The current trend is toward a 'just make it work'
mindset is helping to propel Mac sales.
>
> Cheers,
> Brandon Van Every
You might try selecting lilo for the install and
then after the distribution is already installed
download and install grub from source and see if
that solves your problem.
I have discovered that it usually works fine for
me when the built in version of grub has troubles.
Kevin Wilcox
Ericew
> - some distros detect Windows and will set up a dual boot (Kubuntu)
> - other distros won't (Fedora Core 6)
Fedora Core 3 and 6 I have both personally used and both detected and
automatically configured a grub option for Windows partitions if they
exist. I have also use CentOS4 ( RHEL4 ) with the same success in dual
booting.
> - most distros won't detect other Linux distros. (both of the above)
Yes, they do, but they do not automatically set up the grub at this
time.
> Triple boot is a major PITA.
Only if you have no idea what you are doing.
> - you can get stuck with a particular distro due to packaging issues.
> For instance, the IBM Cell SDK cross-compiler + simulator is all RPM.
> That's too complicated to run through Alien, I think.
And there are a thousand other ways to install RPM's on non RPM system.
> This kind of nonsense has got to be putting off a percentage of
> technical users. I've been at this 3 weeks and I'm on my 4th OS
> install. If I didn't have an actual goal, a hard requirement to run
> the IBM Cell SDK, I would have blown this off long ago. It has become
> abundantly clear to me why all my techie friends with paying jobs own
> Macs.
OS X is nice... If I had the cash to blow on new hardware it would be
from Apple. But for now I will continue to run Linux on an aging, but
perfectly functional, 1.4ghz P-M laptop.
If the IBM Cell SDK was your goal, why did you not install the distro
that the RPM were built on. I'm assuming it was RHEL or SuSe. If cost
was an issue both of these distros have rebuilds ( WhiteBox, CentOS,
ScientificLinux, OpenSuse, ... ) that would allow you to install
without cost. You say you have a goal of installing RPM based tools
but don't even pick a RPM based system to make your life easier.
The Ghost In The Machine
<r...@zianet.com>
wrote
on Tue, 16 Jan 2007 09:32:09 -0700
<pan.2007.01.16....@zianet.com>:
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:59:23 -0800, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>
>> In the past 3 weeks I've learned:
>> - some distros detect Windows and will set up a dual boot (Kubuntu)
>> - other distros won't (Fedora Core 6)
>> - most distros won't detect other Linux distros. (both of the above)
>> Triple boot is a major PITA.
>
> Why is that? I have at least three systems on every computer in the house
> (five at last count) and up to six on some.
The main problem I have with multibooting is that I
eventually run out of partitions. :-) Other than that,
GRUB makes it relatively easy, although most distros don't
prefix or suffix their own names to their kernels, making
management thereof a little iffy.
But that's a detail that's easily taken care of via a
rename and edit after the distro has safely ensconced
things in /boot. One could probably even create
subdirectories (e.g., /boot/gentoo/kernel-whatever).
I'll admit, though, I've not done a lot of setup in that
area, and the only systems I've set up are intended to be
emergency backup affairs, if something goes really rotten
in the main system. So far, I've not had to use them...
I suppose in theory one could load all 350+ partitions
into UML systems, if one really wanted to. The main
problem there would be working with the "local X display",
although in theory one could set up X on one's main system
and have xdm running on the UML system connecting thereto
through TAP/TUN. However, AFAIK most distros set up xdm
to fire up X on their local "machine".
[rest snipped]
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
Windows Vista. Because it's time to refresh your hardware. Trust us.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Brandon J. Van Every
[H]omer wrote:
> graeme wrote:
> > On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 23:59:23 -0800, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>
> >> In the past 3 weeks I've learned:
> >> - some distros detect Windows and will set up a dual boot (Kubuntu)
> >> - other distros won't (Fedora Core 6)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Liar.
Hardly. It calls my Windows 2000 installation "Other," and when
selected, it won't boot. I have 3 hard drives. Windows 2000 takes up
all of the 3rd drive. I don't know what corner case FC6 is failing to
handle, but it isn't handling it.
> > Grub works fine for me,
>
> And me.
Doesn't work for me. So there are the data points.
This newsgroup has way too much traffic. My post is already buried
under a mountain of other posts, and I think it's been less than 24
hours. I don't plan to keep up.
Cheers,
Brandon Van Every
Brandon J. Van Every
There are techies who think it's fun to play with the innards of Linux,
and there are techies with more important things to get done. Like set
up Cell BE cross compilers and simulators. The Grub learning curve has
greatly exceeded the amount of time that I'm willing to put into it. I
Googled and put things in grub.conf substantially similar to what
another poster advised. It didn't work. The "dd magic" did work, it
worked just fine. It's crude, and not what I consider The Way It
Should Be Done [TM], but it got me past dealing with dual boots and on
to real work.
Cheers,
Brandon Van Every
Brandon J. Van Every
Bob Hauck wrote:
> On 15 Jan 2007 23:59:23 -0800, Brandon J. Van Every
> <bvan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > For instance, the IBM Cell SDK cross-compiler + simulator is all RPM.
> > That's too complicated to run through Alien, I think.
>
> Openoffice.org works fine with alien, and it's pretty complicated. I
> would think a self-described techie would try it before assuming it does
> not work.
I don't even know if it'll work on FC6. FC5 is what the SDK supports.
Given the boot loader complications, I'm not going to bother with
Kubuntu + Alien until I actually see the SDK working under FC6.
> You have to chain-load. Like this from my Debian Sarge setup:
>
> # This entry automatically added by the Debian installer for a non-linux
> # OS on /dev/hda2
> title Microsoft Windows XP Professional
> root (hd0,1)
> savedefault
> makeactive
> chainloader +1
>
> This is well-documented, and many distros will do it automatically.
Thought I did all of that. If I revisit the problem in the future,
I'll double check it all again.
Cheers,
Brandon Van Every
Brandon J. Van Every
ray wrote:
> > Triple boot is a major PITA.
>
> Why is that? I have at least three systems on every computer in the house
> (five at last count) and up to six on some.
Because the Fedora Core 6 and Kubuntu versions of Grub fight each
other, and neither detects the other's OS. Kubuntu makes a good effort
to detect and boot Windows 2000. FC6 makes a bad effort, the results
don't work.
Cheers,
Brandon Van Every
Brandon J. Van Every
Ericew wrote:
> Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> > In the past 3 weeks I've learned:
> > - some distros detect Windows and will set up a dual boot (Kubuntu)
> > - other distros won't (Fedora Core 6)
>
> Fedora Core 3 and 6 I have both personally used and both detected and
> automatically configured a grub option for Windows partitions if they
> exist. I have also use CentOS4 ( RHEL4 ) with the same success in dual
> booting.
Well at least I've now heard of other people getting it to work. I
wonder if all of their Windows installations are on drive C:, if it's a
stupid corner case like that. Mine's on E:.
> > - most distros won't detect other Linux distros. (both of the above)
>
> Yes, they do, but they do not automatically set up the grub at this
> time.
Well to me, "detect and take useful action" is kind of the point.
> > Triple boot is a major PITA.
>
> Only if you have no idea what you are doing.
Hey, if you think the name of the game is setting all this stuff up
manually, then you've made my point. The distros aren't that good at
doing it for you.
> > - you can get stuck with a particular distro due to packaging issues.
> > For instance, the IBM Cell SDK cross-compiler + simulator is all RPM.
> > That's too complicated to run through Alien, I think.
>
> And there are a thousand other ways to install RPM's on non RPM system.
Having a large number of ways to do it doesn't sound terribly reliable.
The stuff I read about RPM converters, did not inspire confidence that
it would work for something complicated. It coudl work, but I sure
wouldn't assume it.
> If the IBM Cell SDK was your goal, why did you not install the distro
> that the RPM were built on. I'm assuming it was RHEL or SuSe.
It was built on Fedora Core 5. I figured FC5 would give me more OS
installation problems than FC6. I am hoping that FC6 is sufficiently
similar to FC5 that the SDK will work, but it may not be. In that
event, I will indeed attempt to install FC5.
Cheers,
Brandon Van Every
Linonut
> This newsgroup has way too much traffic. My post is already buried
> under a mountain of other posts, and I think it's been less than 24
> hours. I don't plan to keep up.
Good. Hit the books.
--
The dark ages were caused by the Y1K problem.
yttrx
>
> yttrx wrote:
>> Brandon J. Van Every <bvan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > It has become
>> > abundantly clear to me why all my techie friends with paying jobs own
>> > Macs.
>>
>> If you can't understand how grub works, then you're not a technical
>> user.
>
> There are techies who think it's fun to play with the innards of Linux,
> and there are techies with more important things to get done. Like set
> up Cell BE cross compilers and simulators.
I'm not impressed.
> The Grub learning curve has
> greatly exceeded the amount of time that I'm willing to put into it. I
> Googled and put things in grub.conf substantially similar to what
> another poster advised. It didn't work. The "dd magic" did work, it
> worked just fine. It's crude, and not what I consider The Way It
> Should Be Done [TM], but it got me past dealing with dual boots and on
> to real work.
I learned grub in all of ten minutes, and I was pretty embarrassed that
it took THAT long.
If you can't learn grub, you're a moron.
-----yttrx
Ericew
Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
> Hardly. It calls my Windows 2000 installation "Other," and when
> selected, it won't boot. I have 3 hard drives. Windows 2000 takes up
> all of the 3rd drive. I don't know what corner case FC6 is failing to
> handle, but it isn't handling it.
It calls any non-linux partition "Other".
I have seen grub not work, but only on Vista ( and you ) at this point.
-Eric
Kevin Wilcox
>
> Doesn't work for me. So there are the data points.
>
> This newsgroup has way too much traffic. My post is already buried
> under a mountain of other posts, and I think it's been less than 24
> hours. I don't plan to keep up.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Brandon Van Every
Apparently this group has been taken over by a
compromised news feed bot because my post
concerning Linux alternatives to some Windows
software is buried as well.
I constructed a filter to screen out the news feed
but the number of non news feed posts is so low
that it does not make reading this group
worthwhile.
All is not lost however as I have located some
Linux OBDII software that looks promising.
I have had no luck finding a work around for the
Sears Compucarve unit though.
It requires Windows with no work around.
Cheers!
Kevin
Brandon J. Van Every
yttrx wrote:
>
> I learned grub in all of ten minutes, and I was pretty embarrassed that
> it took THAT long.
I'm sure the difference is, it actually worked on your system. Not
much to learn when things just work.
I'm outta here. Way too many posts.
Cheers,
Brandon Van Every
yttrx
> Mostly off topic SPAM posted by a maniac.
Shut the FUCK up, old man.
-----yttrx
Peter Kai Jensen
Hash: SHA1
Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
>>>> In the past 3 weeks I've learned:
>>>> - some distros detect Windows and will set up a dual boot (Kubuntu)
>>>> - other distros won't (Fedora Core 6)
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Liar.
>
> Hardly. It calls my Windows 2000 installation "Other,"
As opposed to? It detects it and you can rename it if you like, but do
you really want it poking around to find out how to label it?
> and when selected, it won't boot. I have 3 hard drives. Windows 2000
> takes up all of the 3rd drive. I don't know what corner case FC6 is
> failing to handle, but it isn't handling it.
IIRC, Windows doesn't always boot well when not on the primary master
drive or booted from its own bootloader. You may have to remap the
drives with the grub 'map' command. This is, BTW, very well-documented
in the texinfo manual in the section on booting Windows. Find it by
following "Booting -> OS-specific notes -> DOS/Windows" in 'info grub'.
I wouldn't blame any autoconf-tools for not finding this, if that is
indeed the problem. Working around Windows problems can sometimes be
quite challenging.
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--
PeKaJe
Love is the triumph of imagination over intelligence.
-- H. L. Mencken