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Not all Linux apps are *available* for Windows

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Terry Porter

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Mar 15, 2009, 11:45:10 PM3/15/09
to
Here are some examples of Linux apps, for which Windows binaries are not
available from the package maintainer, or available for Free.

Kvm/Qemu :

WINE : Hahahah!

Koules :http://www.ucw.cz/~hubicka/koules/English/koules.html

Samba

FWbuilder (Windows $Payware$, Free for Linux only)

gEDA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEDA (no windows binaries avail from gEDA
homepage, you have to build your own or try and find some). Trivial note:
you can find one of my schematics in the gEDA 'examples' package. The poor
old COLA trolls will never see it.

Said a Windows User re gEDA: "I know that it's possible to compile it for
Windows. However, lots of us are more hardware guys, don't have compilers,
don't have much experience doing that, and would need something that
installs itself..."

Too bad Windows users ... if you want some amazing (up to date) Linux
applications like gEDA, you'll have to run Linux.

Amarok: A beta is available for windows, but it crashes all the time, and
needs the KDE installer to even install it, which is another 250 megabytes.
The Linux version is free, and 100% reliable.

.......

So why struggle with Windows, trying to install Linux apps ?

Do you have a decent Windows compiler, not some lobotomised, shareware of
free one ?

Do you have the software and IT skills to figure out what's wrong when it
doesn't run ?

No ? .....

Why not just install Linux, and have 20,000 Linux applications at the click
of a button, all automatically ?

It's really easy to install Linux, most distros just install themselves.

Try a Free GNU/Linux/Ubuntu LIVE CD at :-
http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download


For Linux alternatives to Windows apps you may be using now, see this handy
alternatives site:-

http://www.linuxalt.com/

--
If we wish to reduce our ignorance, there are people we will
indeed listen to. Trolls are not among those people, as trolls, more or
less by definition, *promote* ignorance.
Kelsey Bjarnason, C.O.L.A. 2008

Doctor Smith

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Mar 16, 2009, 3:51:22 AM3/16/09
to
On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:45:10 +1100, Terry Porter wrote:

>
> Amarok: A beta is available for windows, but it crashes all the time, and
> needs the KDE installer to even install it, which is another 250 megabytes.
> The Linux version is free, and 100% reliable.

Sounds like the Linux version and Windows version have a lot in common.
Both suck and both crash.

The difference with Windows is that we have great programs like iTunes and
Media Monkey both of which blow the doors off of the Linux slopware clones.

Linux loses again.

> .......
>
> So why struggle with Windows, trying to install Linux apps ?

Good question.

> Do you have a decent Windows compiler, not some lobotomised, shareware of
> free one ?

Who cares?
The number of people who need compilers, free or otherwise, is miniscule
compared to the number who are using and enjoying the quality applications
the Windows platform has.

They have no interest in Linux slopware basement dweller crapware.

> Do you have the software and IT skills to figure out what's wrong when it
> doesn't run ?

Can you repair your lungs should they become diseased?

> No ? .....
>
> Why not just install Linux, and have 20,000 Linux applications at the click
> of a button, all automatically ?

Because most of those Linux applications suck, that's why.


> It's really easy to install Linux, most distros just install themselves.

And the user generally removes Linux just as quickly because Linux sucks.

> For Linux alternatives to Windows apps you may be using now, see this handy
> alternatives site:-
>
> http://www.linuxalt.com/

Yea, go and see the slopware for yourself.

amicus_curious

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Mar 16, 2009, 12:31:04 PM3/16/09
to

"Terry Porter" <lin...@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
news:tLadnaSRyrLVViDU...@netspace.net.au...

>
> Amarok: A beta is available for windows, but it crashes all the time, and
> needs the KDE installer to even install it, which is another 250
> megabytes.
> The Linux version is free, and 100% reliable.
>
This is a problem with a lot of OSS applications. The developers are not
very disciplined and publish a lot of unstable applications. It is best to
avoid them.
> .......

>
> Do you have a decent Windows compiler, not some lobotomised, shareware of
> free one ?
>
The express editions of Visual Studio are free, as in beer, of course and
provide incredibly better compilation of C, C++ (managed and unmanaged), C#,
and Java language applications. They come complete with extensive function
libraries, obviating the need to search about for various library sets such
as pnglib and zlib and resulting concerns about version matching. There is
nothing in the Linux world that even comes close to these.

> Do you have the software and IT skills to figure out what's wrong when it
> doesn't run ?
>

Not needed with the extensive error analysis available in Visual Studio.


White Spirit

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Mar 16, 2009, 1:39:46 PM3/16/09
to
amicus_curious wrote:

> The express editions of Visual Studio are free, as in beer,

I don't believe they allow the developer to use them for commercial
software.

> of course
> and provide incredibly better compilation of C, C++ (managed and
> unmanaged),

Not true.

> C#, and Java language applications.

I find the Mono interpreter and compiler is much faster than MS' with
smaller binary sizes to boot. MS does not provide assistance for Java
any more after they tried to hijack their standards and were sued for
breach of licensing agreement to the tune of several million.

> They come complete with
> extensive function libraries, obviating the need to search about for
> various library sets such as pnglib and zlib

The Win32 APIs are horrendous. MFC is okay but nothing special.
Windows Forms does not abstract out some of the low level aspects of
Win32 API, which is quite ugly. The only think MS has going for it is
C#/.Net, which is available as an open source solution. GTK and QT are
simply much better for building a GUI in C/C++.

> and resulting concerns
> about version matching. There is nothing in the Linux world that even
> comes close to these.

Crap.

>> Do you have the software and IT skills to figure out what's wrong when it
>> doesn't run ?

> Not needed with the extensive error analysis available in Visual Studio.

If you need an IDE, Linux has Eclipse with the CDT extensions that
perform the same functions. Visual Studio is underdeveloped as far as
C++ is concerned, however, requiring plugins like Visual Assist to be as
usable as it is for C#. These have existed for Java and C++ on other
platforms for ages.


amicus_curious

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Mar 16, 2009, 3:08:29 PM3/16/09
to

"White Spirit" <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gpm2t3$85b$1...@news.motzarella.org...

> amicus_curious wrote:
>
>> The express editions of Visual Studio are free, as in beer,
>
> I don't believe they allow the developer to use them for commercial
> software.
>
You are misinformed then. You can use VS Express Editions for any
legitimate purpose. There are no limitations on what you can do with the
software you develop using them.

>> of course and provide incredibly better compilation of C, C++ (managed
>> and unmanaged),
>
> Not true.
>
>> C#, and Java language applications.
>
> I find the Mono interpreter and compiler is much faster than MS' with
> smaller binary sizes to boot. MS does not provide assistance for Java any
> more after they tried to hijack their standards and were sued for breach
> of licensing agreement to the tune of several million.
>

Well, they have a complete cross-license with Sun these days. Where have
you been hiding for the past few years? They call it J++ when it is used
with their own system classes.

>> They come complete with extensive function libraries, obviating the need
>> to search about for various library sets such as pnglib and zlib
>
> The Win32 APIs are horrendous. MFC is okay but nothing special. Windows
> Forms does not abstract out some of the low level aspects of Win32 API,
> which is quite ugly. The only think MS has going for it is C#/.Net, which
> is available as an open source solution. GTK and QT are simply much
> better for building a GUI in C/C++.
>
>> and resulting concerns about version matching. There is nothing in the
>> Linux world that even comes close to these.
>
> Crap.
>

Child.

>>> Do you have the software and IT skills to figure out what's wrong when
>>> it
>>> doesn't run ?
>
>> Not needed with the extensive error analysis available in Visual Studio.
>
> If you need an IDE, Linux has Eclipse with the CDT extensions that perform
> the same functions. Visual Studio is underdeveloped as far as C++ is
> concerned, however, requiring plugins like Visual Assist to be as usable
> as it is for C#. These have existed for Java and C++ on other platforms
> for ages.
>

Eclipse is crap.
>

Tony Manco

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Mar 16, 2009, 3:44:37 PM3/16/09
to

X-Chat for Windows exists, but you need to pay a one time fee, or you
can compile it yourself from source, which on Windows is a little hard
and frustrating.
--
Linux - You must break it | Windows - It breaks itself

7

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Mar 16, 2009, 3:49:06 PM3/16/09
to
Micoshaft Appil asstroturfing fraudster pounding the sock amicus_curious
wrote on behalf of Half Wits from Micoshaft Appil Department of Marketing:


>
> "Terry Porter" <lin...@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
> news:tLadnaSRyrLVViDU...@netspace.net.au...
>>
>> Amarok: A beta is available for windows, but it crashes all the time, and
>> needs the KDE installer to even install it, which is another 250
>> megabytes.
>> The Linux version is free, and 100% reliable.
>>
> This is a problem with a lot of OSS applications. The developers are not
> very disciplined and publish a lot of unstable applications. It is best
> to avoid them.
>> .......
>>
>> Do you have a decent Windows compiler, not some lobotomised, shareware of
>> free one ?
>>
> The express editions of Visual Studio are free,

But the source code of 'here today gone tomorrow' unsupportable proprietory
software is nothin compared to gcc. Gcc has all versions available from
year dot and can be maintained by any hired hand. Can't say that for h'ere
today gone tomorrow' proprietory software. Governments, banks and military
should use such software when best practice demands longevity.


> as in beer, of course and
> provide incredibly better compilation of C, C++ (managed and unmanaged),
> C#,

Not going to help you or your company or your long term support issues
if you use 'here today gone tomorrow' proprietory software.


> and Java language applications. They come complete with extensive
> function libraries, obviating the need to search about for various library
> sets such
> as pnglib and zlib and resulting concerns about version matching.

Not going to help you or your company or your long term support issues
if you use 'here today gone tomorrow' proprietory software. You MUST use
open source.

> There
> is nothing in the Linux world that even comes close to these.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!! You UTTER Fool!!


>> Do you have the software and IT skills to figure out what's wrong when it
>> doesn't run ?

How about talking up about the day it doesn't exist and takes your company
down the tube with it. Or how about when it revisions up and breaks
all you applications and takes your company down with it?

> Not needed with the extensive error analysis available in Visual Studio.

Not going to help you with 'here today gone tomorrow' proprietory software.

Ezekiel

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Mar 16, 2009, 4:10:29 PM3/16/09
to

"7" <website_...@www.enemygadgets.com> wrote in message
news:S2yvl.7927$Lc7....@text.news.virginmedia.com...

> Micoshaft Appil asstroturfing fraudster pounding the sock amicus_curious
> wrote on behalf of Half Wits from Micoshaft Appil Department of Marketing:
>
>
>>
>> "Terry Porter" <lin...@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
>> news:tLadnaSRyrLVViDU...@netspace.net.au...
>>>
>>> Amarok: A beta is available for windows, but it crashes all the time,
>>> and
>>> needs the KDE installer to even install it, which is another 250
>>> megabytes.
>>> The Linux version is free, and 100% reliable.
>>>
>> This is a problem with a lot of OSS applications. The developers are not
>> very disciplined and publish a lot of unstable applications. It is best
>> to avoid them.
>>> .......
>>>
>>> Do you have a decent Windows compiler, not some lobotomised, shareware
>>> of
>>> free one ?
>>>
>> The express editions of Visual Studio are free,
>
> But the source code of 'here today gone tomorrow' unsupportable
> proprietory software is nothin compared to

"Here today, gone tomorrow" - You mean like ReiserFS which is now defunc?

7

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Mar 16, 2009, 4:54:51 PM3/16/09
to
Micoshaft Appil asstroturfing fraudster pounding the sock Ezekiel


Nope. You should stick to fscking dead ducks - at least they don't talk
back!

Reiser FS will be available for as long as needed until something more
improved replace it. The source code for it will be available long
after Reiser FS stops being used.

By 'Here today gone tomorrow' I mean proprietory software like Appil crap
and Micoshaft crap OSen. Unlike GPL'd code, it won't be around
for long enough with full release of source code for mainters.
It will die just like all proprieotory software when their companies
die or they shift a version to force upgrades to part money from
customers.


Peter Köhlmann

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Mar 16, 2009, 5:20:38 PM3/16/09
to
Ezekiel wrote:

It isn't. But then, you are just Scott Ezekiel Nudds. No facts will ever
be near you
--
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats
you with experience...


Hadron

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Mar 16, 2009, 5:30:37 PM3/16/09
to
Tony Manco <trm...@gmx.tm> writes:

or one could ignore your bullshit completely and install x-chat 2
directly without paying anything.

http://www.silverex.org/download/


--
In view of all the deadly computer viruses that have been spreading
lately, Weekend Update would like to remind you: when you link up to
another computer, you’re linking up to every computer that that
computer has ever linked up to. — Dennis Miller

Ezekiel

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Mar 16, 2009, 6:44:33 PM3/16/09
to

"Peter Köhlmann" <peter-k...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:gpmfr6$d7n$01$2...@news.t-online.com...

Yeah right. So when was the last update done to Reiser FS? When was the
last patch or bug fix made? When will the next version be released? The
answer to all of this is never because the filesystem is simply left for
dead to rot on the vine.


> But then, you are just Scott Ezekiel Nudds. No facts will ever
> be near you

I don't know who Scott Nudds is but he's certainly smarter than scum like
you.


Ezekiel

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Mar 16, 2009, 6:44:35 PM3/16/09
to

"7" <website_...@www.enemygadgets.com> wrote in message
news:v0zvl.7957$Lc7....@text.news.virginmedia.com...

Another Linux using freak who's into strange perversions.


amicus_curious

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Mar 16, 2009, 8:13:13 PM3/16/09
to

"Ezekiel" <th...@here.com> wrote in message
news:gpmkrr$dvs$1...@reader.motzarella.org...

>
>> Nope. You should stick to fscking dead ducks -
>> at least they don't talk back!
>
> Another Linux using freak who's into strange perversions.
>
He does seem to have difficulty expressing himself clearly.

White Spirit

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Mar 17, 2009, 9:27:58 AM3/17/09
to
amicus_curious wrote:

> "White Spirit" <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:gpm2t3$85b$1...@news.motzarella.org...

>> I find the Mono interpreter and compiler is much faster than MS' with

>> smaller binary sizes to boot. MS does not provide assistance for Java
>> any more after they tried to hijack their standards and were sued for
>> breach of licensing agreement to the tune of several million.

> Well, they have a complete cross-license with Sun these days. Where
> have you been hiding for the past few years? They call it J++ when it
> is used with their own system classes.

J++ != Java. They are not compatible, hence Sun's successful litigation
against Microsoft. Where you have been hiding for the past ten years?

>>> and resulting concerns about version matching. There is nothing in
>>> the Linux world that even comes close to these.

>> Crap.

> Child.

Lack of content noted.

>>>> Do you have the software and IT skills to figure out what's wrong
>>>> when it
>>>> doesn't run ?

>>> Not needed with the extensive error analysis available in Visual Studio.

>> If you need an IDE, Linux has Eclipse with the CDT extensions that
>> perform the same functions. Visual Studio is underdeveloped as far as
>> C++ is concerned, however, requiring plugins like Visual Assist to be
>> as usable as it is for C#. These have existed for Java and C++ on
>> other platforms for ages.

> Eclipse is crap.

Child. Eclipse and KDevelop easily stand up to Visual Studio. These
days, I find Eclipse is more stable.

White Spirit

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Mar 17, 2009, 10:06:07 AM3/17/09
to
Ezekiel wrote:

>>> "Here today, gone tomorrow" - You mean like ReiserFS which is now
>>> defunc?

>> It isn't.

> Yeah right. So when was the last update done to Reiser FS? When was the
> last patch or bug fix made? When will the next version be released? The
> answer to all of this is never because the filesystem is simply left for
> dead to rot on the vine.

You can always take over as maintainer if you think you have the skills...

chrisv

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Mar 17, 2009, 10:13:20 AM3/17/09
to
> rat wrote:
>>
>> Child.

Filthy rat.

Ezekiel

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Mar 17, 2009, 10:20:10 AM3/17/09
to

"White Spirit" <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gpoaoc$kk5$1...@news.motzarella.org...

I'm more of an 'application level' developer than a kernel/file-system level
guy. Out of curiosity - How much does the position pay?

Matt

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Mar 17, 2009, 11:00:24 AM3/17/09
to
Terry Porter wrote:
> Here are some examples of Linux apps, for which Windows binaries are not
> available from the package maintainer, or available for Free.


So it would seem that people are /locking themselves in/ to using Linux
when they invest in using the mentioned apps.

Are you bragging or complaining?

I thought free software was supposed to have something to do with freedom.

amicus_curious

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Mar 17, 2009, 11:13:38 AM3/17/09
to

"White Spirit" <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gpoaoc$kk5$1...@news.motzarella.org...

Since there seems to be no money in it, you also have to want to do it for
the fun of it. Apparently no one has stepped up to the task. I think that
is a likely fate for almost all OSS projects when the founder departs for
one reason or another. The followers have no real sense of ownership and
without any other compensation, they choose to follow their own muses rather
than picking up someone else's child.

White Spirit

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 11:18:06 AM3/17/09
to
amicus_curious wrote:

> "White Spirit" <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:gpoaoc$kk5$1...@news.motzarella.org...

>>> Yeah right. So when was the last update done to Reiser FS? When was

>>> the last patch or bug fix made? When will the next version be
>>> released? The answer to all of this is never because the filesystem
>>> is simply left for dead to rot on the vine.

>> You can always take over as maintainer if you think you have the
>> skills...

> Since there seems to be no money in it, you also have to want to do it
> for the fun of it. Apparently no one has stepped up to the task. I
> think that is a likely fate for almost all OSS projects when the founder
> departs for one reason or another. The followers have no real sense of
> ownership and without any other compensation, they choose to follow
> their own muses rather than picking up someone else's child.

That doesn't necessarily happen. There are plenty of projects that have
been taken up by someone else. In this case, ext3 is simply a better
filesystem imo.

Matt

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Mar 17, 2009, 11:24:23 AM3/17/09
to
Terry Porter wrote:
> Here are some examples of Linux apps, for which Windows binaries are not
> available from the package maintainer, or available for Free.

> Too bad Windows users ... if you want some amazing (up to date) Linux


> applications like gEDA, you'll have to run Linux.
>
> Amarok: A beta is available for windows, but it crashes all the time, and
> needs the KDE installer to even install it, which is another 250 megabytes.
> The Linux version is free, and 100% reliable.


http://amarok.kde.org/
(((((
> Amarok is a powerful music player for Linux and Unix, MacOS X and Windows with an intuitive interface. It makes playing the music you love and discovering new music easier than ever before - and it looks good doing it!
)))))

Maybe you would like to join the Amarok project and sabotage its Windows
and Mac and Unix versions, since you seem to think that it would be good
for Linux or would prove Linux superior if the app runs on Linux only.

While you're at it, maybe you would like to wreck KDE, since its goal is
to run on all OSes.

Amarok is by design cross-platform. Its Windows binaries will develop
perfectly well---and all versions will benefit---if it provides
something that is not available from other Windows FOSS. Its developers
have the vision and maturity to recognize that.

Ezekiel

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Mar 17, 2009, 11:31:30 AM3/17/09
to

"White Spirit" <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gpoevb$pg4$3...@news.motzarella.org...

Some are and some aren't. Often it seems that people are more interested in
creating their own new projects rather than picking up an existing one.


> In this case, ext3 is simply a better filesystem imo.

http://linuxgazette.net/102/piszcz.html

It depends on what you're looking for. The benchmarks above show that ext3
did rather poorly compared to other filesystems. Personally I use XFS but
that's because I'm using it as a media server and have relatively few files
that tend to be very large.

Peter Köhlmann

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 11:33:27 AM3/17/09
to
Matt wrote:

> Terry Porter wrote:
>> Here are some examples of Linux apps, for which Windows binaries are
>> not available from the package maintainer, or available for Free.
>
>
> So it would seem that people are /locking themselves in/ to using Linux
> when they invest in using the mentioned apps.

That has to be the dumbest claim this year so far

> Are you bragging or complaining?
>
> I thought free software was supposed to have something to do with
> freedom.

It has. Feel free to take the source and do the wintendo version
--
Microsoft software doesn't get released - it escapes, leaving
a trail of destruction behind it.


Doctor Smith

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Mar 17, 2009, 11:49:28 AM3/17/09
to

Bad choice of application.
Amarok has enough problems on it's own.
It doesn't need Porter's help.

Chris Ahlstrom

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Mar 17, 2009, 12:07:49 PM3/17/09
to
After takin' a swig o' grog, White Spirit belched out
this bit o' wisdom:

> amicus_curious wrote:
>
>>> If you need an IDE, Linux has Eclipse with the CDT extensions that
>>> perform the same functions. Visual Studio is underdeveloped as far as
>>> C++ is concerned, however, requiring plugins like Visual Assist to be
>>> as usable as it is for C#. These have existed for Java and C++ on
>>> other platforms for ages.
>
>> Eclipse is crap.
>
> Child. Eclipse and KDevelop easily stand up to Visual Studio. These
> days, I find Eclipse is more stable.

Also check out NetBeans. Some people like that one a lot.

But an IDE is no substitute for knowing what you are doing.

http://www.charlespetzold.com/etc/DoesVisualStudioRotTheMind.html

--
Unfortunately, most programmers like to play with new toys. I have many
friends who, immediately upon buying a snakebite kit, would be tempted to
throw the first person they see to the ground, tie the tourniquet on him,
slash him with the knife, and apply suction to the wound.
-- Jon Bentley

Chris Ahlstrom

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Mar 17, 2009, 12:10:03 PM3/17/09
to
After takin' a swig o' grog, Matt belched out
this bit o' wisdom:

> Terry Porter wrote:

Yes. The freedom to get away from Windows.

But dude, you don't have to change operating systems to have freedom.
You can stick with Linux and have /all/ the freedom you need.

Hint: You don't /need/ Windows -- you need functionality. If Linux doesn't
have the functionality ... but it does.

Besides, there are many people who, for moral or technical reasons, refuse
to use Windows.

--
Auribus teneo lupum.
[I hold a wolf by the ears.]
[Boy, it *sounds* good. But what does it *mean*?]

Chris Ahlstrom

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 12:12:28 PM3/17/09
to
After takin' a swig o' grog, Matt belched out
this bit o' wisdom:

> Terry Porter wrote:

It's gravy, Matt. That is all.

It doesn't make up for all the functionality that Windows lacks: good
virtual desktops, wide range of window managers, faster network stack,
better security, more open and flexible dev tools....

--
Not from concentrate.

White Spirit

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Mar 17, 2009, 12:19:00 PM3/17/09
to
Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> But an IDE is no substitute for knowing what you are doing.

> http://www.charlespetzold.com/etc/DoesVisualStudioRotTheMind.html

Agreed. When applying for a job, having become accustomed to using an
IDE must be one of the worst possible things when asked to perform a
programming test in the selection process.

amicus_curious

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Mar 17, 2009, 12:29:14 PM3/17/09
to

"White Spirit" <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gpoevb$pg4$3...@news.motzarella.org...

If you look around, there are huge numbers of abandoned projects that even
the original developer lost interest in continuing. Major stull like Linux
itself has enough commercial interest from companies like Red Hat, Novell,
and others who profit from distributing Linux that they can pay developers
to work on various things in the same way that proprietary software
companies do. But unless a project or piece of a project comes under that
kind of use, it is likely to languish when raw enthusiasm wanes.

Hadron

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Mar 17, 2009, 12:37:39 PM3/17/09
to
White Spirit <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> writes:

Reasons?

Many would disagree - indeed its why Reiser existed.

But COLA "advocates" thinks a programmer == another
programmer. Abandonware and retrograde OSS projects prove otherwise.

Hadron

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 12:38:44 PM3/17/09
to
"amicus_curious" <AC...@sti.net> writes:

Which is when the bugs get reported, UIs need to be honed and
documentation written.

On that subject though, I used "picard" today - very, very nice.

Hadron

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Mar 17, 2009, 12:41:51 PM3/17/09
to
White Spirit <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> writes:

Total nonsense of course since using an IDE does not rot the brain or
hinder your programming ability. It does provide and integrate tools
that enable you to be more efficient in many cases. Personally I dont
prefer one over emacs but thats me. Emacs falls behind in many areas
that Eclipse, for example, shines in - but the overrall benefit of using
emacs means I continue to use it despite the frustrations.

If you were used to ONE tool set as opposed to an IDE you would as "at
sea" as if you only used one IDE.

No one judges a programmer on what tools he uses. No one of any worth
that is. They judge him on his abilities to use different tools and
adapt. Its why Telnet Porter would NOT get a job in any reputable SW
house.

White Spirit

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 12:52:20 PM3/17/09
to
Hadron wrote:

> White Spirit <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> writes:

>> That doesn't necessarily happen. There are plenty of projects that
>> have been taken up by someone else. In this case, ext3 is simply a
>> better filesystem imo.

> Reasons?

Just my personal experience, hence my mention of it being my personal
opinion.

> Many would disagree - indeed its why Reiser existed.

They're free to disagree. I won't claim to have tested Reiser in all
possible scenarios. To be honest, the best (i.e., fastest) filesystem I
have used so far is that provided by FreeBSD.

> But COLA "advocates" thinks a programmer == another
> programmer.

That's your interpretation.

White Spirit

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 12:53:52 PM3/17/09
to
amicus_curious wrote:

> If you look around, there are huge numbers of abandoned projects that
> even the original developer lost interest in continuing. Major stull
> like Linux itself has enough commercial interest from companies like Red
> Hat, Novell, and others who profit from distributing Linux that they can
> pay developers to work on various things in the same way that
> proprietary software companies do. But unless a project or piece of a
> project comes under that kind of use, it is likely to languish when raw
> enthusiasm wanes.

That's the natural order for both closed and open source applications in
a level playing field.

Matt

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 1:11:04 PM3/17/09
to
Peter Köhlmann wrote:
> Matt wrote:
>
>> Terry Porter wrote:
>>> Here are some examples of Linux apps, for which Windows binaries are
>>> not available from the package maintainer, or available for Free.
>>
>> So it would seem that people are /locking themselves in/ to using Linux
>> when they invest in using the mentioned apps.
>
> That has to be the dumbest claim this year so far


all, every, ever, never, none, -est, can't, has to, must, impossible,
not at all, nothing, everything,

Almost everything you write is immoderate.


>> Are you bragging or complaining?
>>
>> I thought free software was supposed to have something to do with
>> freedom.
>
> It has. Feel free to take the source and do the wintendo version


Some people want to gloat over FOSS apps that don't give the option of
running on Windows. Those are apps of the dying kind.

JEDIDIAH

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 1:11:24 PM3/17/09
to
On 2009-03-16, amicus_curious <AC...@sti.net> wrote:
>
> "Terry Porter" <lin...@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
> news:tLadnaSRyrLVViDU...@netspace.net.au...
>>
>> Amarok: A beta is available for windows, but it crashes all the time, and
>> needs the KDE installer to even install it, which is another 250
>> megabytes.
>> The Linux version is free, and 100% reliable.
>>
> This is a problem with a lot of OSS applications. The developers are not
> very disciplined and publish a lot of unstable applications. It is best to
> avoid them.

...sounds rather a lot like Windows shareware actually.

Even Windows commercial apps do some obviously boneheaded things.

[deletia]

--
My macintosh runs Ubuntu. |||
/ | \

JEDIDIAH

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 1:13:48 PM3/17/09
to
On 2009-03-17, Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> White Spirit <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> writes:
>
>> amicus_curious wrote:
>>
>>> "White Spirit" <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:gpoaoc$kk5$1...@news.motzarella.org...
>>
[deletia]

>> That doesn't necessarily happen. There are plenty of projects that
>> have been taken up by someone else. In this case, ext3 is simply a
>> better filesystem imo.
>
> Reasons?
>
> Many would disagree - indeed its why Reiser existed.
>
> But COLA "advocates" thinks a programmer == another
> programmer. Abandonware and retrograde OSS projects prove otherwise.

...you know, I read that and the first thing that jumped to mind was
not "freeware" projects but the manner in which work and projects are
managed within corporations.

What you're whining about and trying to lay at the feed of Linux is
not a "Linux problem" it's a problem for the industry in general.

chrisv

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 1:21:25 PM3/17/09
to
White Spirit wrote:

>Hadron wrote:
>>
>> But COLA "advocates" thinks a programmer == another
>> programmer.
>
>That's your interpretation.

No, that's yet another Quack bald-faced lie. Documented.

chrisv

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 1:31:40 PM3/17/09
to
Matt wrote:

>So it would seem that people are /locking themselves in/ to using Linux
>when they invest in using the mentioned apps.

Nope. As long as the data produced and used by the app is in a
open-standard format, there is no lock-in. Anyone is free to make an
app which will manipulate the data. If you're on the FOSS side of the
fence, code will do it be sitting there for the taking.

Having the freedom to switch applications and/or operating systems
does not mean that there is zero effort involved.

--
'Which "open standard" formats would these be? The ones that are still
non standard or the MS Office ones which are used in 95% or more of
businesses?' - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark

amicus_curious

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 1:42:05 PM3/17/09
to

"White Spirit" <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gpokiv$ist$2...@news.motzarella.org...
I don't know what you mean by "level playing field" here, but a commercial,
closed source application that has developed a customer base will continue
to be serviced due to someone making a living at it, even if it is not a lot
of fun to work on. I find it hard to believe that anyone who doesn't like
to do something would work at it for the fun, though. That is the
difference that I see.

Chris Ahlstrom

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 2:43:55 PM3/17/09
to
After takin' a swig o' grog, Matt belched out
this bit o' wisdom:

> Some people want to gloat over FOSS apps that don't give the option of

> running on Windows. Those are apps of the dying kind.

Nope. All you can really say is that it is good (and most likely) to cherry
pick the most popular apps to port to Windows (or Linux).

Will we ever see valgrind, fluxbox, awesome, rat poison, sc, mrxvt, and
hundreds of other niche, but useful, applications ported to Windows?

Personally, I don't care. I'd far rather run them all on Linux in the first
place. Porting's good to ream out the code.

--
Now, you might ask, "How do I get one of those complete home tool
sets for under $4?" An excellent question.
Go to one of those really cheap discount stores where they sell
plastic furniture in colors visible from the planet Neptune and where they
have a food section specializing in cardboard cartons full of Raisinets and
malted milk balls manufactured during the Nixon administration. In either
the hardware or housewares department, you'll find an item imported from an
obscure Oriental country and described as "Nine Tools in One", consisting of
a little handle with interchangeable ends representing inscrutable Oriental
notions of tools that Americans might use around the home. Buy it.
This is the kind of tool set professionals use. Not only is it
inexpensive, but it also has a great safety feature not found in the
so-called quality tools sets: The handle will actually break right off if
you accidentally hit yourself or anything else, or expose it to direct
sunlight.
-- Dave Barry, "The Taming of the Screw"

Rex Ballard

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 2:45:26 PM3/17/09
to
On Mar 16, 3:51 am, Doctor Smith <iaintgotnostinkinem...@ols.net>
wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:45:10 +1100, Terry Porter wrote:


> The difference with Windows is that we have great programs like iTunes and
> Media Monkey both of which blow the doors off of the Linux slopware clones.

LInux has some good media tools as well, and the music is cheaper.
RealMedia is one good example.

There are also some very good OSS mp3 and mpeg4 players as well.

> Linux loses again.

Showing your ignorance again?

> > .......
> > Do you have a decent Windows compiler, not some lobotomised, shareware of
> > free one ?
>
> Who cares?
> The number of people who need compilers, free or otherwise, is miniscule
> compared to the number who are using and enjoying the quality applications
> the Windows platform has.

Even Microsoft's applications aren't that great. Seems like the
"Windows Only" market
is drying up. Not many research dollars available for a single-
platform solution that
can't run on all of the major platforms (Windows, Mac, AND LInux).

Linux commercial applications are actually not that cheap, but they
are as good
as the UNIX versions.

> They have no interest in Linux slopware basement dweller crapware.

There's more to Linux than just "Pure GNU" software.
And even the "commercial OSS" is very good.

Eclipse, Web 2.0, Ajax, SecondLife, all pretty good for Open Source
based technologies.

> > Do you have the software and IT skills to figure out what's wrong when it
> > doesn't run ?

> Can you repair your lungs should they become diseased?

The problem with Windows software is that you can't even get a
"doctor".

When Windows starts crashing you have 5 main strategies.
1 - Restart the App
2 - Reboot the machine
3 - Reinstall the software
4 - Reinstall Windows
5 - Reformat the hard drive and start from scratch.

Microsoft had video driver race conditions that resulted in corrupted
systems, and knew it was a persistent problem. Even with Windows XP
they were still not getting many of these race conditions fixed.
There were even "Windows Advocates" who suggested "Disposable
Computers" because it was cheaper to buy a new computer than it was to
attempt to rebuild a corrupted Windows machine.

Microsoft still has security problems. Even with built-in firewalls,
anti-virus, and installation control, the ActiveX controls can bring
in uninvited guests. People still run their PCs as "Administrators"
because it's such a pain to try and go into "regular user" mode and
try to switch to Administrator only when absolutely necessary.

With Linux, you can get a core dump, pass it off to Bugzilla, and
someone will actually go through the core dump to find out WHY it
failed, and fix the problem. The patch is usually out within a few
days.

> > Why not just install Linux, and have 20,000 Linux applications at the click
> > of a button, all automatically ?

So do most Windows applications. Most Windows shareware applications
are riddled with viruses, spyware, and other malware. What doesn't
kill your system immediately watches for the information required to
drain your bank account, or bet against you in the stock market.

Modern hackers are also a more malicious crowd. Using their skills to
target political and economic targets, gathering information which it
can "leak" or "sell" to the opposition, even leaking information to
divorce lawyers, IRS auditors, and other regulatory and law
enforcement agencies. Even though the information is obtained
illegally, the hacker is functioning as an "un-paid informant" who
leaks information without disclosing how he obtained the information.

> Because most of those Linux applications suck, that's why.

20,000 applications, you're going to have some great ones, and some
"skunks". Many of those applications are pretty raw, with command
line interfaces. Of course, these "stdin/stdout" applications are
pretty simple by themselves, but it's very easy to combine a few
commands together to get some pretty outstanding results in a very
short period of time.

> > It's really easy to install Linux, most distros just install themselves.


> And the user generally removes Linux just as quickly because Linux sucks.

Apparently not, because they keep coming back for more. There are 8
Linux publications at the local Barnes and Noble or Borders, and each
has a circulation of about 1/2 million, including subscribers and
retail purchasers. And each of these magazines includes a DVD with 1
or more Linux distributions included. That's about 4 million units
shipped per MONTH, in addition to downloads, retail purchases,
distributions included in books, and corporate images offered from
corporate servers.

Then there are the Virtual Images, VMWare, VirtualBox, Parallels, and
various others all offer numerous Linux distributions through servers,
mirrors, and torrents.


> > For Linux alternatives to Windows apps you may be using now, see this handy
> > alternatives site:-

> >http://www.linuxalt.com/

> Yea, go and see the slopware for yourself.

Absolutely!

You should look at all this software, and look up commercial software
for special interests, as well as commercial offerings from IBM,
Oracle, Novell, Red Hat, Corel, Adobe, and various others, and compare
them to similarly priced products available for Windows.

Then, after downloading and using 100 or so applications on your Linux
box or Linux VM, try pricing the "premium" products available for
Windows at "Premium" prices.

Photoshop is really nice, but it costs about $400. GIMP is free, and
does about 95% of the functionality, but with a less "natural"
interface. GIMP also has the ability to process batches of pictures
using scripts, not something you can easily do with Photoshop.

MS-Office Professional is also very nice, it has a Presentation tool,
Word Processor, Spreadsheet, and even a simple single-user database,
all for about $500. You can upgrade the database to SQL Server for
another $500. Open Office isn't near as "flashy", but it costs $0.
StarOffice has some nice wizards and themes that make it well worth
the $50 investment.

Visual Studio Professional - very nice IDE - for about $400. Eclipse
costs $0.

Visio - great package for $600 - Dia and Eclipse graphical editing
tools - $0

MS-Project - Never liked it, but most project managers love it - for
$700 per user. Planner and Project - $0
There are also some nice project management tools for Eclipse, and
many integrate with calenders, time sheet
databases, and accounting systems, for prices ranging from $0 to $200.

Quicken - Nice little package for tracking expenses and getting ready
for the tax man. OpenOffice comes with templates for BASE which
provide the same information, in a form that your accountant can
easily extract and summarize into the IRS forms. I haven't seen a
good commercial tax preparation package that will do it
automatically. Most of the commercial packages I've seen are actually
for accounting services - get the database configuraton, AND have your
taxes done professionally - for $100-$300. Maybe H&R block, or one of
the other big firms, should look into this.

World of WarCraft and other games.
Sorry, all we've got is SecondLife. It's OSS software running on
Linux servers with "viewers" that run on Windows, Mac, and Linux.
There are some pretty amazing places here, including battlefields and
adult clubs. Warning, it can be very addictive.

Notepad - we've got emacs, vi, pico, and nano. Nano is the simplest
of all of them, and at least it can deal with files that are line-feed
terminated.

Paint - Xfig generates Postscript art that is scalable and can be
printed on a variety of printers, directly or using ghostscript. Back
in the old days, processors were too slow for all the floating point
required to edit postscript interactively, but modern processors, even
1ghz celerons, have no problem.

HyperTerminal - Microsoft's lobotomized terminal software. Linux has
xterm, kterm, and several other very nicely enhanced terminal
interfaces that can also do things like Graphics.

Remote Access - Linux has a remote access client, but it also supports
GUI interactions directly with the applications using X11. The result
is that your "desktop" might be spread out over several Linux
"servers" which are providing graphical interfaces at the application
level. You might even think that you are running the application
locally. The good news is that it's very lightweight, which means you
don't have to keep waiting for the screen to refresh and "catch up".

Shortcuts - Nice little feature - when it works, which is only for
about 10% of the applications. On Linux/Unix, they are called links
or symbolic links, and special programming is required to NOT have the
application treat the symbolic link as if it were the actual file or
directory being accessed. This makes configuration and storage
management MUCH easier.

Disk deframenter - Linux doesn't have one - it's built into the
operating system and file system, which keeps contiguous storage
together automatically.


Chris Ahlstrom

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 2:54:35 PM3/17/09
to
After takin' a swig o' grog, JEDIDIAH belched out
this bit o' wisdom:

Yeah, I've been meaning to figure out how to convert all my Quattro Pro
spreadsheets and Ami Pro documents. And all my Atari files.

http://windowssecrets.com/support-alert/2008/05/15/06-More-free-abandoned-software

In the April issue I mentioned a great site [1] which offered aging
commercial software that had been abandoned and was now free. This
prompted subscriber Mark Lynch to write "Hey, thanks for the link to the
abandonware site, but for games, this abandonware site [2] has a much
better offering with more games and no download limits.

http://abandonia.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonwareo

So, if Borland gives away their C++ compiler for free now, and they call it
abandonware, does that mean Visual Studio Express is abandonware?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_games_released_as_freeware

. . .
SimCity (1989), a City-building game, was released under the GPLv3 for
the One Laptop per Child project, and as Micropolis to the general public
(the original title of the game).
. . .

Sounds to me like a certain amount of abandonware actually finds a safe
haven in "free software" land.

Hadron's toes are ticklin' his tonsils.

--
<SirDibos> Culus: are you awake?
<Culus> no

Terry Porter

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 6:37:54 PM3/17/09
to
Matt wrote:

> Terry Porter wrote:
>> Here are some examples of Linux apps, for which Windows binaries are not
>> available from the package maintainer, or available for Free.
>
>> Too bad Windows users ... if you want some amazing (up to date) Linux
>> applications like gEDA, you'll have to run Linux.
>>
>> Amarok: A beta is available for windows, but it crashes all the time, and
>> needs the KDE installer to even install it, which is another 250
>> megabytes. The Linux version is free, and 100% reliable.
>
>
> http://amarok.kde.org/
> (((((
>> Amarok is a powerful music player for Linux and Unix, MacOS X and Windows
>> with an intuitive interface. It makes playing the music you love and
>> discovering new music easier than ever before - and it looks good doing
>> it!
> )))))
>
> Maybe you would like to join the Amarok project and sabotage its Windows
> and Mac and Unix versions, since you seem to think that it would be good
> for Linux or would prove Linux superior if the app runs on Linux only.

Nonsense.

I made a list of Linux apps that don't run on Windows, that's all.

Conversely, if you're so upset about Amarok not currently running reliably
on Windows, feel free to help develop it for that platform. Sweaty Balmer
will no doubt send you hugs and kisses.

This will please a Wintroll like you greatly I imagine.


--
If we wish to reduce our ignorance, there are people we will
indeed listen to. Trolls are not among those people, as trolls, more or
less by definition, *promote* ignorance.
Kelsey Bjarnason, C.O.L.A. 2008

Terry Porter

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 6:40:20 PM3/17/09
to
Matt wrote:

> Terry Porter wrote:
>> Here are some examples of Linux apps, for which Windows binaries are not
>> available from the package maintainer, or available for Free.
>
>

> So it would seem that people are /locking themselves in/ to using Linux
> when they invest in using the mentioned apps.

Hahaha, yeah, all us Linux users are so locked in. Linux is doomed.

>
> Are you bragging or complaining?

Neither, Windows boy.

>
> I thought free software was supposed to have something to do with freedom.

And so it does.

How does Windows, the anthesis of Freeedom factor into this argument ?

Terry Porter

unread,
Mar 17, 2009, 6:44:08 PM3/17/09
to
Matt wrote:

>
>
> Some people want to gloat over FOSS apps that don't give the option of
> running on Windows. Those are apps of the dying kind.

Unlike the Windows OS, which is of the dying kind.