Vienna backtracks on OpenSource - gives stuff choice or running Windows
Ezekiel
<quote>
23 December 2009
Vienna: Windows and Linux to coexist
Based on the results of a recently announced study it has been decided that
the municipal authority of the City of Vienna will not at present be
shifting entirely to open source for its software needs. Rather
administrative staff will have the choice of running either Windows and
Microsoft Office or Linux (in the form of Wienux, a Debian/Ubuntu-based
custom distribution) and OpenOffice on their desktop.
As noted in the Viennese study, often the decision not to migrate is based
on the need to run specialised software where high quality examples are only
available for the Windows platform. For example Vienna's kindergartens
recently reverted to Windows when an essential application was not supported
under Linux.
</quote>
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Vienna-Windows-and-Linux-to-coexist-892081.html
ChiTown
From the looks of it I would say that Microsoft has gotten to them in
the form of a bribe. It wouldn't be the first time Microsoft has
thrown sand in the Linux machine. Microsoft single handily managed to
sabotage the OLPC initiative so I wouldn't put it past them getting
their slimy claws into the Vienna project.
7
sock Ezekiel wrote on behalf of Half Wits from Micoshaft Appil
Department of Marketing:
>
> <quote>
> 23 December 2009
> Vienna: Windows and Linux to coexist
>
> Based on the results of a recently announced study it has been decided
> that the municipal authority of the City of Vienna will not at present be
> shifting entirely to open source for its software needs. Rather
> administrative staff will have the choice of running either Windows and
> Microsoft Office or Linux (in the form of Wienux, a Debian/Ubuntu-based
> custom distribution) and OpenOffice on their desktop.
I can see what happenz when this thing is metered.
Every day its the same windummy crashed PCs and virus infected
slow PCs that cost Vienna productivity.
While the open sourcers just get on with daily work without
constantly harassing the admins and tech support staff.
> As noted in the Viennese study, often the decision not to migrate is based
> on the need to run specialised software where high quality examples are
> only available for the Windows platform.
Thats never been true at any time. All the specialised software can be
converted with one or two open source employees to stuff that works on
Linux. What is lacking is flexible software and business practices
that cripple council buying. Vienna needs to strengthen its procurement
procedures with best practice that invites open source companies
to tender for supply of goods and services.
ONLY by an illegal specification procedure can Vienna end up
with micoshaft only software when the rest of the world has moved on.
> For example Vienna's
> kindergartens recently reverted to Windows when an essential application
> was not supported under Linux.
The whole world functions without windump software and only
windummy kindergartens cannot.
Sounds like serious failure to open up the procurement
process and let competition in.
> </quote>
>
>
> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Vienna-Windows-and-Linux-to-
coexist-892081.html
Ezekiel
"ChiTown" <chito...@entmail.org> wrote in message
news:1cmxphafn81ob$.1xei7muhv0081$.dlg@40tude.net...
Any evidence to backup your claims. It's easy to throw around random
nonsense like "got to them in the form of a bribe" but from what I see -
it's just empty talk on your part. The explanation Vienna gave (have legacy
Windows apps with no foss alternative) makes a lot more sense than your
conjecture.
ChiTown
http://boycottnovell.com/2009/09/21/microsoft-olpc-strategy/
http://news.softpedia.com/news/One-Laptop-Per-Child-Sabotaged-by-Microsoft-and-Intel-71941.shtml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJBATdf13t0
What makes you think they have changed their ways?
Ezekiel
So I was right. You have absolutely zero proof.
Thanks for confirming this.
Matt
Oh, but you left out the best part:
same link:
(((((
> The reason for the decision given in the study's summary is that "more than half of PC workstations use software products for which no Linux alternatives are available without migration investments". In view of this, the authors of the study consider a long-term coexistence of Windows and Linux the only viable solution.
)))))
There you have it from the horse's mouth. Vienna has to maintain its
addiction to Windows indefinitely because of migration costs (which
wouldn't be there if they had had cross-platform apps across the board).
The cross-platform apps aren't there now, and Vienna needs Windows
indefinitely---because of past Linux-only fanaticism.
Ezekiel
"Matt" <ma...@themattfella.xxxyyz.com> wrote in message
news:G_s0n.6872$Gf3....@newsfe22.iad...
It says:
<quote>
As noted in the Viennese study, often the decision not to migrate is based
on the need to run specialised software where high quality examples are only
available for the Windows platform.
</quote>
There are foss alternatives but the quality of those applications are too
low. It's not "Windows" they are locked in to - it's "applications" that are
available for Windows that don't have suitable foss counterparts.
Chris Ahlstrom
Subject corrected.
You're welcome!
--
We know all about the habits of the ant, we know all about the habits of the
bee, but we know nothing at all about the habits of the oyster. It seems
almost certain that we have been choosing the wrong time for studying the
oyster.
-- Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar"
Chris Ahlstrom
>> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Vienna-Windows-and-Linux-to-coexist-892081.html
>
> Oh, but you left out the best part:
>
> same link:
> (((((
>> The reason for the decision given in the study's summary is that "more than half of PC workstations use software products for which no Linux alternatives are available without migration investments". In view of this, the authors of the study consider a long-term coexistence of Windows and Linux the only viable solution.
>)))))
>
> There you have it from the horse's mouth. Vienna has to maintain its
> addiction to Windows indefinitely because of migration costs (which
> wouldn't be there if they had had cross-platform apps across the board).
>
> The cross-platform apps aren't there now, and Vienna needs Windows
> indefinitely---because of past Linux-only fanaticism.
No. Because of past Windows-only fanaticism.
--
The notes blatted skyward as they rose over the Canada geese, feathered
rumps mooning the day, webbed appendages frantically pedaling unseen
bicycles in their search for sustenance, driven by cruel Nature's maxim,
'Ya wanna eat, ya gotta work,' and at last I knew Pittsburgh.
-- Winning sentence, 1987 Bulwer-Lytton bad fiction contest.
Ezekiel
"Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@launchmodem.com> wrote in message
news:hhtnjr$vlk$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Ezekiel pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> <quote>
>> 23 December 2009
>> Vienna: Windows and Linux to coexist
>>
>> Based on the results of a recently announced study it has been decided
>> that
>> the municipal authority of the City of Vienna will not at present be
>> shifting entirely to open source for its software needs. Rather
>> administrative staff will have the choice of running either Windows and
>> Microsoft Office or Linux (in the form of Wienux, a Debian/Ubuntu-based
>> custom distribution) and OpenOffice on their desktop.
>>
>> As noted in the Viennese study, often the decision not to migrate is
>> based
>> on the need to run specialised software where high quality examples are
>> only
>> available for the Windows platform. For example Vienna's kindergartens
>> recently reverted to Windows when an essential application was not
>> supported
>> under Linux.
>> </quote>
>>
>> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Vienna-Windows-and-Linux-to-coexist-892081.html
>
> Subject corrected.
>
> You're welcome!
>
What was wrong with the subject before - (other than my hands were in the
wrong position and I had a few typos so it should have read: " gives staff
choice of running Windows "
They backtracked because they announced they would go fully open source. And
now they're giving their staff a choice. The correction is??????
Matt
> Matt pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>>> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Vienna-Windows-and-Linux-to-coexist-892081.html
>> Oh, but you left out the best part:
>>
>> same link:
>> (((((
>>> The reason for the decision given in the study's summary is that "more than half of PC workstations use software products for which no Linux alternatives are available without migration investments". In view of this, the authors of the study consider a long-term coexistence of Windows and Linux the only viable solution.
>> )))))
>>
>> There you have it from the horse's mouth. Vienna has to maintain its
>> addiction to Windows indefinitely because of migration costs (which
>> wouldn't be there if they had had cross-platform apps across the board).
>>
>> The cross-platform apps aren't there now, and Vienna needs Windows
>> indefinitely---because of past Linux-only fanaticism.
>
>
<"No" snipped>
> Because of past Windows-only fanaticism.
That too. They feed off each other.
Matt
If the FOSS alternatives are of low quality, the biggest reason is
probably that they don't attract developers, because the FOSS apps have
so often in the past been Linux only. The developers who want their
stuff to be used as widely as possible aren't interested in building
Linux-only apps. There is a big overlap between those who want their
stuff used and those who want their stuff to be of high quality.
Linux-only programming is apt to be a pursuit of joy or experience or
friendship or spite. That's all fine, but it doesn't increase usage of
Linux or the FOSS app in question, and it doesn't help get rid of
Windows. Not that all Linux-only apps are low quality. But they are
all disused inasmuch as Linux is disused. Not talking about
coffee-makers or servers here.
Matt
> Ezekiel pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> <quote>
>> 23 December 2009
>> Vienna: Windows and Linux to coexist
>>
>> Based on the results of a recently announced study it has been decided that
>> the municipal authority of the City of Vienna will not at present be
>> shifting entirely to open source for its software needs. Rather
>> administrative staff will have the choice of running either Windows and
>> Microsoft Office or Linux (in the form of Wienux, a Debian/Ubuntu-based
>> custom distribution) and OpenOffice on their desktop.
>>
>> As noted in the Viennese study, often the decision not to migrate is based
>> on the need to run specialised software where high quality examples are only
>> available for the Windows platform. For example Vienna's kindergartens
>> recently reverted to Windows when an essential application was not supported
>> under Linux.
>> </quote>
>>
>> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Vienna-Windows-and-Linux-to-coexist-892081.html
>
> Subject corrected.
>
> You're welcome!
How about:
Vienna: Windows and Linux to co-fester
Mark Kent
> Ezekiel pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> <quote>
>> 23 December 2009
>> Vienna: Windows and Linux to coexist
>>
>> Based on the results of a recently announced study it has been decided that
>> the municipal authority of the City of Vienna will not at present be
>> shifting entirely to open source for its software needs. Rather
>> administrative staff will have the choice of running either Windows and
>> Microsoft Office or Linux (in the form of Wienux, a Debian/Ubuntu-based
>> custom distribution) and OpenOffice on their desktop.
>>
>> As noted in the Viennese study, often the decision not to migrate is based
>> on the need to run specialised software where high quality examples are only
>> available for the Windows platform. For example Vienna's kindergartens
>> recently reverted to Windows when an essential application was not supported
>> under Linux.
>> </quote>
>>
>> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Vienna-Windows-and-Linux-to-coexist-892081.html
>
> Subject corrected.
>
> You're welcome!
>
That was a very long time ago. Probably over a year. I'm sure the
linux using folk have great fun watching the Windows users, listening to
their cries of pain and frustration...
--
| mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
| Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
| Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
| Open platforms prevent vendor lock-in. Own your Own services! |
Ezekiel
"Mark Kent" <mark...@demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jg5a17-...@ellandroad.demon.co.uk...
</quote>
Free clue - since you don't have one. Because the "year" portion of the date
is 2009 - it doesn't mean that it's over a year ago. The "December 23" part
of the date is also important.
Matt
> Chris Ahlstrom <ahls...@launchmodem.com> espoused:
>> Ezekiel pulled this Usenet boner:
>>
>>> <quote>
>>> 23 December 2009
>>> Vienna: Windows and Linux to coexist
>>>
>>> Based on the results of a recently announced study it has been decided that
>>> the municipal authority of the City of Vienna will not at present be
>>> shifting entirely to open source for its software needs. Rather
>>> administrative staff will have the choice of running either Windows and
>>> Microsoft Office or Linux (in the form of Wienux, a Debian/Ubuntu-based
>>> custom distribution) and OpenOffice on their desktop.
>>>
>>> As noted in the Viennese study, often the decision not to migrate is based
>>> on the need to run specialised software where high quality examples are only
>>> available for the Windows platform. For example Vienna's kindergartens
>>> recently reverted to Windows when an essential application was not supported
>>> under Linux.
>>> </quote>
>>>
>>> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Vienna-Windows-and-Linux-to-coexist-892081.html
>> Subject corrected.
>>
>> You're welcome!
>>
>
> That was a very long time ago. Probably over a year. I'm sure the
> linux using folk have great fun watching the Windows users, listening to
> their cries of pain and frustration...
Try reading the link. The study was released last month.
Matt
> <quote>
> 23 December 2009
> Vienna: Windows and Linux to coexist
> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Vienna-Windows-and-Linux-to-coexist-892081.html
http://www.wien.gv.at/ma14/pdf/oss-studie-deutsch-evaluierung.pdf
German to English translation
Results of the study
Open source software at work in Vienna's City
Evaluation of recent use and
Development of future policy alternatives
Vienna, December 2009
GENERAL
The information and communication technology is subject to rapid change
cycles.
Developments such as Green IT, virtualization, enhanced thin-client
applications or Cloud Com -
Putting the latest technological answers to questions on a reduced resource
cenverbrauch with simultaneous increase in computing power and ease of
operation.
In the ongoing strategic review, planning and realization of
Gesamtarchitek -
ture in the city of Vienna in addition to the above trends can also use
ideas from
vs. proprietary software. Open Source Software (OSS) into account.
One of the city of Vienna (MA 27 EU Strategy and Economic Development)
in late 2007 published
lished study on the ICT center in Vienna shows that the administration
of the City of Vienna, both
in the field of proprietary software as well as in the OSS area on broad
local knowledge
accessible and relevant stimulus to increase demand and thus to
strengthen the
Business location is set.
INTRODUCTION
With each PC workstation to take employees to the city of Vienna a
comprehensive performance
tungspaket to complete. In addition to standard programs like word
processing, spreadsheet
lation and mailing function are the PC workstations with network
connectivity and Internet access
magistrat, and special applications safe. The basic software is
automatically updated firewall and virus scanners provide the necessary
IT security.
The system is 7x24 hours (round the clock) are available, a workaround is
as soon as possible. On the infrastructure in the background for the
operation of the jobs -
ze is necessary to include server and storage landscapes.
In 2004, the staff was as an alternative for the needs of the city of
Vienna -
sammengestellte version of the open-source OpenOffice.org software and
the operating sys -
tem Linux (WIENUX) has been made available. The choice between the
alternatives is
the services taking into account the other information necessary for
specific department so
Free software.
The equipment with standard software on the PC about 21,000 jobs the
city of Vienna
Therefore, there is currently depending on the choice of the relevant
department of the following basic pro -
ten:
Microsoft Open Source Equipment Equipment
MS Office 2000, Microsoft Office 2003
OpenOffice.org (for Windows
Office programs
and MS Office 2007 or Linux, 14,000 installed, ca
10%
regularly used)
For these PC workstations, the decision was taken to the Office programs and
which operating system will be the successor of the current generation
of products introduced
should. Please note this was the time dimension: For the conversion of
office
Range of jobs is expected with a duration of about 2 years.
Against this background was examined by whether and to what extent the
use of larger
OSS at the PC workstation is technically and functionally possible and /
or strategic sense.
2
HANDLUNGSALTERNATIVEN
The initial experience with the use of open source software on a PC
workstation
were evaluated and presented future alternatives. Furthermore, a for -
comprehensive collection of used on each PC software products implemented.
In addition to the analysis of the possibilities of open source software
as an operating system on
PC workstation and as an Office solution was, therefore, these software
applications
take into account and as heranzuzie basis for determining the potential
of migration -
. hen
Overall, explores four classified as practicable of proceeding:
1. "Open Choice" option, the services may continue to migrate between
the two
the various Office products and
system
platforms choose.
2. "Open Office" The migration office suite OpenOffice.org is generally
introduced -
sets, the operating system is
Windows.
3. "Open Solution" For the time being is a change to OpenOffice.org,
from 2011
is used as the Linux operating
system.
4. "Microsoft on the desktop" There are generally Microsoft Office and
the operating
Windows system used.
However, none of the proposed solutions 1-3 is a complete conversion of
all the work
expected places: studies on migration to OSS in other large organi -
tions - as in Munich - have shown that, at present, even in the best
case only for
about 80% of jobs a uniform solution is attainable.
RESULTS
In the server area is the city of Vienna has already been successful for
many years, open source
Software Products book. Main applications on virtually all PC
workstations are
Print and file servers, e-government solutions, Internet and intranet
presence of the city
Vienna and major parts of the security infrastructure.
In jobs is the city of Vienna, among other things The following open
source software, type:
� PDF Creator - Generate PDF documents
� Portable Signer - Signing of PDF documents
� Firefox - Web browsing and use of the City of Vienna Applications
� OpenOffice - office suite
� GanttProject - Project Management
Freemind � - Visualize and structuring of content
The technical investigation has shown that, based on Linux and
OpenOffice.org
PC workstations in principle to the system landscape of the city council
of Vienna
can be integrated.
However, more than half of the PC workstations used software products -
det, for which no executable under Linux without any conversion effort
alternatives available
are. Total affected are approximately 1,100 software packages, including
Eigenentwicklun -
3
gen on client-server basis, which are widely used in the city of Vienna.
These include
Sample programs such as SAS Balanced Scorecard, SAP Business Warehouse
or self -
written client / server applications (eg, the program VIPer as
distributed components
component of the central personnel data).
Hence the need for further longer-term coexistence of MS
Windows and Linux. However, even if all the necessary components on Linux
already were available, would have to based on the experiences of
previous magistratsweiter sys -
temumstellungen several years of coexistence of both platforms to be
scheduled.
Therefore, the currently known as Option 1 "Open Choice choice of
migration", ie the
temporary continuation of the parallel operation of Microsoft software
and OSS, still retaining -
States are, because of the associated conditions (necessary supply
of multiple expertise, compatibility, interoperability) has not,
however, this variant as
To see fundamental decision for the future.
In the future the city of Vienna will follow the strategy in the PC
workstations working
operational safety, reliability and communication compatibility as well
as user acceptance
in compliance with the utmost efficiency and ensure vendor independence
to ask. The findings of the study are therefore the basis for regularly
be carried out -
rende use decisions on new IT technologies in those worlds, in the city
Vienna will be used as grounds for a number of measures.
MEASURES
In order for the next deployment decision, the range of strategic options
extend, are or have been placed the following steps:
� The city of Vienna in cooperation with the ZIT a funding competition open
Source for Vienna "published. Be facilitated by Viennese
companies through -
guided research and development projects that increase the
efficiency of administration in working
successful e-government on all platforms and in different jobs
to improve further.
� The city of Vienna is a comprehensive information campaign for the
computer users individual -
nen der Stadt Wien for the use of open source software at work
implementing
ren For those interested in the services of introductory courses
in the OSS package will be
OpenOffice will be offered. These two measures are aimed at
increasing
the state of information and skills as the basis for a possible
Einsatzent -
making off for OSS.
� The MA 14 to draw up new jobs and printer standards, according to the
group
strategy and sustainable architecture for standardized job types
festzule -
This gen, the technical and organizational framework to examine
be, under which a forced use of open source solutions for the PC
Work may be possible. Hiebei is on the essential aspects of user -
zerakzeptanz, with safety, reliability and compatibility
Communications Association,
Countries, communities, towns, particularly as regards
e-government applications
To take into consideration. Furthermore, future potential
strategic decision to -
developments and technological advancements (thin client and
virtualization,
but also the use of an OSS operating system on desktop) into
consideration
be involved.
4
� The required safety upgrades and continued operation of Micro -
soft products shall be carried out without a decision in principle
to precedent -
ren
Related Links
MA 14 - Information and communications technology
http://www.wien.gv.at/ma14/
Open-source software on Arbeitsplatz/2004
http://www.wien.gv.at/ma14/oss.html
ZIT-call "open source for Vienna" http://www.zit.co.at/
Study on ICT center in Vienna
http://www.wien.gv.at/forschung/staerkefelder/ikt.html
5
Rainer Weikusat
[...]
> There are foss alternatives but the quality of those applications are too
> low. It's not "Windows" they are locked in to
No it is 'Windows' you are locked into. And consequently, anyone
relying on you for first-level support is, too. That's certainly
something to shed a tear or two about on national mourning day or
another occasion which doesn't lend itself to anything else. And now
... WOULD YOU PLEASE KEEP YOUR ADVOCACY CRAP IN ADVOCACY NEWSGROUPS.
Mark Kent
This story was definitely reported over a year ago, and had the same
conclusion.
Rex Ballard
> <quote>
> 23 December 2009
> Vienna: Windows and Linux to coexist
>
> Based on the results of a recently announced study it has been decided that
> the municipal authority of the City of Vienna will not at present be
> shifting entirely to open source for its software needs. Rather
> administrative staff will have the choice of running either Windows and
> Microsoft Office or Linux (in the form of Wienux, a Debian/Ubuntu-based
> custom distribution) and OpenOffice on their desktop.
They should also offer the option of Windows with OpenOffice. In
fact, make OpenOffice the standard for ALL desktops, and then let
those who need Microsoft Office either justify and document their need
(why OpenOffice is insufficient) or pay for it out of their own
pockets. Of course people will want the "status" of MS-Office if the
company/tax-payer is paying the bill, but when they have to dig into
their own pockets, they might think twice before insisting that the
one spreadsheet where they use vbscript - once or twice a week -
actually merits spending 400 Euros (MSRP) or even 100 Euros to have MS-
Office rather than OpenOffice.
> As noted in the Viennese study, often the decision not to migrate is based
> on the need to run specialized software where high quality examples are only
> available for the Windows platform.
The typical issues between OpenOffice and MS-Office typically come
down to a few areas.
1 - Use of fonts unique to Microsoft - font aliasing results in larger
fonts on OpenOffice.
2 - Use of vbscript macros in spreadsheets or word documents - OO has
scripting too, but calls to routines unique to Microsoft will usually
fail.
3 - Inability to execute virus code - a mixed blessing - some code
makes it look pretty, other code searches your hard drive and sends e-
mail for you.
4 - OO closes MS-Office "back doors" - OLE, vb, and .net objects won't
execute - which stops viruses in their tracks.
5 - Differences in how forms, data objects, and reports are
generated. - BASE uses lets you create forms and reports that
generate "writer" documents.
6 - OOXML versus ODF format. OOXML lets you wrap your viruses and
have them executed with your document. ODF is "pure XML" and MIME
objects. This limits the ability to "sneak in" binary objects like
viruses.
> For example Vienna's kindergartens
> recently reverted to Windows when an essential application was not supported
> under Linux.
> </quote>
It might help to know which applications those were - specifically.
> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Vienna-Windows-and-Linux-to-co...
Chris Ahlstrom
> "Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@launchmodem.com> wrote in message
> news:hhtnjr$vlk$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> Ezekiel pulled this Usenet boner:
>>
>>> <quote>
>>> 23 December 2009
>>> Vienna: Windows and Linux to coexist
>>>
>>> Based on the results of a recently announced study it has been decided
>>> that
>>> the municipal authority of the City of Vienna will not at present be
>>> shifting entirely to open source for its software needs. Rather
>>> administrative staff will have the choice of running either Windows and
>>> Microsoft Office or Linux (in the form of Wienux, a Debian/Ubuntu-based
>>> custom distribution) and OpenOffice on their desktop.
>>> </quote>
>>>
>>> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Vienna-Windows-and-Linux-to-coexist-892081.html
>>
>> Subject corrected.
>>
>> You're welcome!
>
> What was wrong with the subject before - (other than my hands were in the
> wrong position and I had a few typos so it should have read: " gives staff
> choice of running Windows "
Not Windows. Windows apps.
> They backtracked because they announced they would go fully open source. And
> now they're giving their staff a choice. The correction is??????
Okay, point taking, even if you posted it for trolling.
I'll bet, though, that Vienna received some Microsoft sales visits.
--
A day for firm decisions!!!!! Or is it?
Chris Ahlstrom
> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Vienna-Windows-and-Linux-to-coexist-892081.html
>>
>> Subject corrected.
>>
>> You're welcome!
>
> How about:
> Vienna: Windows and Linux to co-fester
<Snit mode>
Interesting you used the term "fester", as in "Uncle Fester", as in
"Steve Ballmer".
--
Your mode of life will be changed for the better because of new developments.
Chris Ahlstrom
I was going to agree, but then I thought, that's like Catholic and
Protestant fanaticism feeding off of each other. That is, battles. With
Linux and Windows in this case, it is not battles, it is Microsoft feeding
the Windows-only fanaticism. Microsoft is the primary reason there are
Windows-only apps.
--
Every cloud engenders not a storm.
-- William Shakespeare, "Henry VI"
Chris Ahlstrom
> Ezekiel wrote:
>
>> There are foss alternatives but the quality of those applications are too
>> low. It's not "Windows" they are locked in to - it's "applications" that are
>> available for Windows that don't have suitable foss counterparts.
>
> If the FOSS alternatives are of low quality, the biggest reason is
> probably that they don't attract developers, because the FOSS apps have
> so often in the past been Linux only. The developers who want their
> stuff to be used as widely as possible aren't interested in building
> Linux-only apps. There is a big overlap between those who want their
> stuff used and those who want their stuff to be of high quality.
> Linux-only programming is apt to be a pursuit of joy or experience or
> friendship or spite.
Or, *cough* *cough* Freedom.
> That's all fine, but it doesn't increase usage of
> Linux or the FOSS app in question, and it doesn't help get rid of
> Windows. Not that all Linux-only apps are low quality. But they are
> all disused inasmuch as Linux is disused. Not talking about
> coffee-makers or servers here.
Well, there are a *lot* of low-quality Windows applications, too.
And some of them are commercial.
--
Water, taken in moderation cannot hurt anybody.
-- Mark Twain
Hadron
> On Jan 4, 3:17 pm, "Ezekiel" <not-z...@the-zeke.com> wrote:
>> <quote>
>> 23 December 2009
>> Vienna: Windows and Linux to coexist
>>
>> Based on the results of a recently announced study it has been decided that
>> the municipal authority of the City of Vienna will not at present be
>> shifting entirely to open source for its software needs. Rather
>> administrative staff will have the choice of running either Windows and
>> Microsoft Office or Linux (in the form of Wienux, a Debian/Ubuntu-based
>> custom distribution) and OpenOffice on their desktop.
>
> They should also offer the option of Windows with OpenOffice. In
> fact, make OpenOffice the standard for ALL desktops, and then let
> those who need Microsoft Office either justify and document their need
> (why OpenOffice is insufficient) or pay for it out of their own
> pockets.
When something goes wrong with some IBM system or it doesn't do as
required, do the sys admins pay you out of their own pocket too you vile
little hypocrite?
Hadron
> "Ezekiel" <not-...@the-zeke.com> writes:
>
> [...]
>
>> There are foss alternatives but the quality of those applications are too
>> low. It's not "Windows" they are locked in to
>
> No it is 'Windows' you are locked into. And consequently, anyone
No its not. Try reading the bloody report.
IF those apps ran ok on Linux then fine.
Hadron
Mark Kent really is a clueless blowhard. If he was American I would
think that Liarsuck is his "#1 son" as he refers to him.
Rex Ballard
Nope - If we are doing the support organization contract, and we have
Service Level Agreements, it and something goes down for too long, it
comes out of OUR pockets, in the form of lower bonuses and smaller
salary raises.
I don't think you'll be seeing Microsoft make a similar offer.
Matt
The story being reported here is the issuance of the official study by
people who decide these things in Vienna. Hopefully you are able to
comprehend that.
JeffM
>This story was definitely reported over a year ago,
>and had the same conclusion.
>
http://google.com/search?q=cache:46-QNXXdQ8UJ:linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/04/0043239+Vienna+*-*-*-*-*-*-*-subsidize-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*+*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-already-*+8000000.Euros+ActiveX+*-*-*-*-*-software-*-tests-*-*-language-abilities+IEs4Linux+transparent-*+*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-door-*+marketing+migrate-back-*-*+*-*-*-fraction-*-*-*-that-*-*-*-Windows-will-cost+*-Greens+MS.partners+only-available-on-*-Internet-Explorer-*#23650207
http://tinyurl.com/ViennaBunglesLinuxDeployment
http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/04/0043239
Hiring some developers to reverse-engineer a work-alike app
would cost them a fraction of what M$ licenses would.
Snit
1/4/10 4:42 PM:
> Matt pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Vienna-Windows-and-Linux-to-coexist-
>>>> 892081.html
>>>
>>> Subject corrected.
>>>
>>> You're welcome!
>>
>> How about:
>> Vienna: Windows and Linux to co-fester
>
> <Snit mode>
>
> Interesting you used the term "fester", as in "Uncle Fester", as in
> "Steve Ballmer".
Er?
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Matt
I can see you are a thinker.
It seems you have reasoned that Vienna could make a Linux-capable
workalike of a given app for much less than the cost of 14,000 MS licenses.
The next step in your personal growth is to become informed of the facts
surrounding the issue and to combine the relevant information with your
already-formidable common sense.
For that reason I direct your attention to the English translation of
the recent report by Vienna IT, which translation I have generously
posted in full elsewhere on the thread.
Here is the operative text:
(((((
> However, more than half of the PC workstations used software products
> for which no executable under Linux without any conversion effort alternatives available
> are. Total affected are approximately 1,100 software packages,
)))))
Terry Porter
> Mark Kent wrote:
>>This story was definitely reported over a year ago, and had the same
>>conclusion.
>>
> Yup.
> http://tinyurl.com/ViennaBunglesLinuxDeployment
> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/04/0043239
>
> Hiring some developers to reverse-engineer a work-alike app would cost
> them a fraction of what M$ licenses would.
Of course.
The whole incident speaks of microsoft covertly working behind the
scenes, bribing and inserting 'friends of microsoft' into key locations
again.
The lack of detail and the ambiguous language used are key indicators of
this kind of action.
The good thing is that microsoft can only delay the inevitable, it can't
stop it.
--
This machine running Gnu/Linux Mint 8 and posting via Pan.
Get your Free copy NOW! http://linuxmint.com/
Mark Kent
Which is what was reported over a year ago. Of course, in that time,
there is no reason why alternatives couldn't have been sourced and would
save an enormous amount of money, as the licences have to be paid for
over and over and over and over...
Frankly, I doubt that there really are 1,100 packages which are
"essential" and for which alternatives cannot be found. This smacks of
incompetence. People who can think would have been useful here, but as
I keep saying, this conclusion was reached over a year ago, and studies
which know the answer *before* they finish rarely achieve anything
useful.
Mark Kent
You don't get "linux-only" fanatiscism, you get an economic case for
escaping from proprietary lock-in. Windows is all about lock-in, Linux
is about freedom from lock-in.
This is about competing economic models; one requires abuse of the
customer, the other empowers the customer.
It not fanatiscism, it's abuse of customers, abuse of monopolies, which
characterise this decision space.
Chris Ahlstrom
> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 17:56:24 -0800, JeffM wrote:
>
>> Mark Kent wrote:
>>>This story was definitely reported over a year ago, and had the same
>>>conclusion.
>>>
>> Yup.
>> http://tinyurl.com/ViennaBunglesLinuxDeployment
>> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/04/0043239
>>
>> Hiring some developers to reverse-engineer a work-alike app would cost
>> them a fraction of what M$ licenses would.
>
> Of course.
>
> The whole incident speaks of microsoft covertly working behind the
> scenes, bribing and inserting 'friends of microsoft' into key locations
> again.
>
> The lack of detail and the ambiguous language used are key indicators of
> this kind of action.
From the slashdot link:
But bkingaut informs that Vienna has decided to migrate back to
Windows (Google translation) -- to Vista no less. The migration of
720 computers used in kindergartens will cost the city about EU8M.
The given reason for all this is a language test application for the
kids that only works with MS IE and won't be made compatible (by the
producer) with Firefox until 2009.
1. The wording here is "migrate back to Windows".
a. It's only a partial fall-back.
b. Why migrate back if you're already migrated forward?
2. Dudes, it is now 2010. You could have had the Firefox-compatible
version now.
--
It is so very hard to be an
on-your-own-take-care-of-yourself-because-there-is-no-one-else-to-do-it-for-you
grown-up.
Chris Ahlstrom
> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 17:56:24 -0800, JeffM wrote:
>
>> Mark Kent wrote:
>>>This story was definitely reported over a year ago, and had the same
>>>conclusion.
>>>
>> Yup.
>> http://tinyurl.com/ViennaBunglesLinuxDeployment
>> http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/04/0043239
>>
>> Hiring some developers to reverse-engineer a work-alike app would cost
>> them a fraction of what M$ licenses would.
>
> Of course.
>
> The whole incident speaks of microsoft covertly working behind the
> scenes, bribing and inserting 'friends of microsoft' into key locations
> again.
>
> The lack of detail and the ambiguous language used are key indicators of
> this kind of action.
>
> The good thing is that microsoft can only delay the inevitable, it can't
> stop it.
I found this funny in the original translation:
Also SPO council Siegfried sees Lindenmayr Wienux not finished yet.
"Wienux is not gone from the window. The city of Vienna is a 20 year old
open-source software and will continue to do so," said Lindenmayr to
ORF.at. "The use of software is for us but not an ideology question. The
best educational software runs on Windows, so we will be using Windows in
kindergarten."
Windows -- The kindergarten OS.
--
You will be surrounded by luxury.
TomB
But they don't. So they're locked into Windows. What's so hard to
understand?
--
The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true.
chrisv
>>
>> It's not "Windows" they are locked in to - it's "applications" that are
>> available for Windows that don't have suitable foss counterparts.
Gosh, "a lot of people and companies use Windows because of it's nice
selection of apps."
Thanks for letting us know that, you stupid shit. We didn't know
that. </sarcasm>
Why don't you just fsck off, you worthless asshole.
Matt
A year-and-a-half ago a dependence of the Vienna Kindergarten on
Schlaum�use was reported as the reason for rejecting Linux. Now please
show previous mention of the other 1099 dependencies.
You are ignoring the point that had 1100 cross-platform apps been
available to be picked up as needed, Vienna's cost of migrating to Linux
could now be rather near zero. Today Vienna is stuck in a corner
because the apps were not there. They are stuck with Windows
indefinitely because the cross-platform apps were not there.
> Of course, in that time,
> there is no reason why alternatives couldn't have been sourced
Linux-capable alternatives that are Linux-only are not practical because
during the Windows-->Linux transition the user is required to run
Windows for some apps and Linux for others. That problem is eliminated
and the OS becomes in a sense irrelevant when the apps are cross-platform.
I challenge anybody to find a large IT operation in the developed world
that has switched or even conceived of switching to desktop Linux
without cross-platform apps.
> and would
> save an enormous amount of money, as the licences have to be paid for
> over and over and over and over...
>
> Frankly, I doubt that there really are 1,100 packages which are
> "essential" and for which alternatives cannot be found.
A key point of the report summary is that Vienna wants applications that
would let them switch to Linux without migration costs. I don't see you
acknowledging that point or the point that cross-platform apps would
accomplish that. So you have something in common with the OP Zeke.
> This smacks of
> incompetence. People who can think would have been useful here, but as
> I keep saying, this conclusion was reached over a year ago, and studies
> which know the answer *before* they finish rarely achieve anything
> useful.
The remaining Linux isolationists are in effect working to maintain a
world that is nearly Windows-only. They display very little sense of
history and---beyond hanging Fester from the yardarm---they have little
to no vision of how the OS monopoly is to be broken.
Matt
> Matt pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> Ezekiel wrote:
>>
>>> There are foss alternatives but the quality of those applications are too
>>> low. It's not "Windows" they are locked in to - it's "applications" that are
>>> available for Windows that don't have suitable foss counterparts.
>> If the FOSS alternatives are of low quality, the biggest reason is
>> probably that they don't attract developers, because the FOSS apps have
>> so often in the past been Linux only. The developers who want their
>> stuff to be used as widely as possible aren't interested in building
>> Linux-only apps. There is a big overlap between those who want their
>> stuff used and those who want their stuff to be of high quality.
>> Linux-only programming is apt to be a pursuit of joy or experience or
>> friendship or spite.
>
> Or, *cough* *cough* Freedom.
If I were interested in freeing people, I would rather free a hundred
people than one or two.
And I could rally more support from others in trying to free the hundred
than in trying to free the one or two.
And I would get more resistance from the slavers in trying to free the
hundred than in trying to free the one or two.
>> That's all fine, but it doesn't increase usage of
>> Linux or the FOSS app in question, and it doesn't help get rid of
>> Windows. Not that all Linux-only apps are low quality. But they are
>> all disused inasmuch as Linux is disused. Not talking about
>> coffee-makers or servers here.
>
> Well, there are a *lot* of low-quality Windows applications, too.
> And some of them are commercial.
And very often for the same reason: not enough developers because there
are not enough users.
chrisv
>The remaining Linux isolationists are in effect working to maintain a
>world that is nearly Windows-only. They display very little sense of
>history and---beyond hanging Fester from the yardarm---they have little
>to no vision of how the OS monopoly is to be broken.
I have no idea who this "they" is that you refer-to, but I cannot
think of anyone posting in here who fits the above description.
I think we all know what needs to be done. Open standards for
documents and data-exchange, and open standards on the Internet.
Having customer data locked-up in proprietary formats is
unconscionable.
Matt
> Matt wrote:
>
>> The remaining Linux isolationists are in effect working to maintain a
>> world that is nearly Windows-only. They display very little sense of
>> history and---beyond hanging Fester from the yardarm---they have little
>> to no vision of how the OS monopoly is to be broken.
>
> I have no idea who this "they" is that you refer-to, but I cannot
> think of anyone posting in here who fits the above description.
>
> I think we all know what needs to be done. Open standards for
> documents and data-exchange,
I thought you might say that, and I think it is true. But IMO open data
standards don't really go far enough. The competition that they bring
is essential, but I think division of open-standards programming effort
is a pitfall in the near term anyway. There is also the issue of users
having to learn different apps when they change OSes even though the
data formats may be constant across OSes.
> and open standards on the Internet.
As I understand it, that war is mostly won and is parallel to what has
to happen with the traditional desktop OS. People don't have to write
for IE alone anymore, and there will be a time when people won't have to
write for Windows alone anymore---in order to get their stuff seen and
used, I mean. With the recent freeing up of languages and APIs like
Java and Qt it is becoming both possible and necessary to write across
platforms. Microsoft's weakness in mobile/wireless computing is a key
to the growth of cross-platform development.
chrisv
>chrisv wrote:
>>
>> I think we all know what needs to be done. Open standards for
>> documents and data-exchange,
>
>I thought you might say that, and I think it is true. But IMO open data
>standards don't really go far enough. The competition that they bring
>is essential, but I think division of open-standards programming effort
>is a pitfall in the near term anyway. There is also the issue of users
>having to learn different apps when they change OSes even though the
>data formats may be constant across OSes.
Of course there are "other issues", such as training, but none are
insurmountable. None are as frightening as not being able to freely
exchange data with your customers (or with co-workers, or with
teachers...)
>> and open standards on the Internet.
>
>As I understand it, that war is mostly won
"Mostly won" today, perhaps. But the battle isn't over - e.g.
Silverlight.
Matt
IMO the advance of open-data standards should be reinforced in every way
in the short term until the opposition is weakened sufficiently. In
that context the training and division-of-effort aspects mentioned are
significant now, but would tend to lose significance when open-data
standards are better established. It seems that Firefox was the paladin
in breaking the browser monopoly. Now that web standards are better
established, it is safer to start new browser projects (witness: Chrome).
Hadron
> Matt pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> Ezekiel wrote:
>>
>>> There are foss alternatives but the quality of those applications are too
>>> low. It's not "Windows" they are locked in to - it's "applications" that are
>>> available for Windows that don't have suitable foss counterparts.
>>
>> If the FOSS alternatives are of low quality, the biggest reason is
>> probably that they don't attract developers, because the FOSS apps have
>> so often in the past been Linux only. The developers who want their
>> stuff to be used as widely as possible aren't interested in building
>> Linux-only apps. There is a big overlap between those who want their
>> stuff used and those who want their stuff to be of high quality.
>> Linux-only programming is apt to be a pursuit of joy or experience or
>> friendship or spite.
>
> Or, *cough* *cough* Freedom.
What like the freedom for you to insult Joerg Shilling and call OSS
advocates "fuckwits" when YOU write proprietary code for Windows and
openly boast here about how much money you make doing it?
>
>> That's all fine, but it doesn't increase usage of
>> Linux or the FOSS app in question, and it doesn't help get rid of
>> Windows. Not that all Linux-only apps are low quality. But they are
>> all disused inasmuch as Linux is disused. Not talking about
>> coffee-makers or servers here.
>
> Well, there are a *lot* of low-quality Windows applications, too.
> And some of them are commercial.
There are a lot of high quality ones too. What's your point?
Chris Ahlstrom
> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> Well, there are a *lot* of low-quality Windows applications, too.
>> And some of them are commercial.
>
> And very often for the same reason: not enough developers because there
> are not enough users.
Not always. Consider, for example, one of the more problematic Windows
applications: Windows Explorer.
What explains its chronic and long-standing problems?
And why hasn't Microsoft, after 20 years, gotten a solid and stable (in the
sense of no feature-creep and an ever-diminishing number of bugs) version of
all of the products in the Office suite?
I agree with chrisv (whom others accuse so wrongly of never saying anything
of substance) that open data formats would be a big step forward.
I also agree with you that cross-platform apps are desirable... and I'm
puzzled why people don't do it, given how easy it is.
(Well, we know why Microsoft doesn't do it... they want to force you to
stick with their products.)
--
Q: What's the difference between the 1950's and the 1980's?
A: In the 80's, a man walks into a drugstore and states loudly, "I'd
like some condoms," and then, leaning over the counter, whispers,
"and some cigarettes."
Ezekiel
"Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@launchmodem.com> wrote in message
news:hi0m7i$a3e$5...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Matt pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> Well, there are a *lot* of low-quality Windows applications, too.
>>> And some of them are commercial.
>>
>> And very often for the same reason: not enough developers because there
>> are not enough users.
>
> Not always. Consider, for example, one of the more problematic Windows
> applications: Windows Explorer.
>
> What explains its chronic and long-standing problems?
Such as?
> And why hasn't Microsoft, after 20 years, gotten a solid and stable (in
> the
> sense of no feature-creep and an ever-diminishing number of bugs) version
> of
> all of the products in the Office suite?
Feel free to list all of the Linux apps that focus on fixing bugs instead of
introducing new features.
> I agree with chrisv (whom others accuse so wrongly of never saying
> anything
> of substance) that open data formats would be a big step forward.
I think that this is nice in theory but in practice it doesn't work all that
well. For the "core" data this is do-able but each app typically has
unique/custom features that don't appear in other apps. So how are those
going to be stored? Example - I embed a Visio diagram into a MS-Word
document. Or my Open-Office doc has some OO specific macros. The "core" data
can be stored but app specific stuff won't work.
> I also agree with you that cross-platform apps are desirable... and I'm
> puzzled why people don't do it, given how easy it is.
Non-trivial cross platform apps aren't as easy as you make them out to be.
Hadron
> Matt pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> Well, there are a *lot* of low-quality Windows applications, too.
>>> And some of them are commercial.
>>
>> And very often for the same reason: not enough developers because there
>> are not enough users.
>
> Not always. Consider, for example, one of the more problematic Windows
> applications: Windows Explorer.
>
> What explains its chronic and long-standing problems?
What problems? The delay one that Gnome file open dialog suffers from tto?
>
> And why hasn't Microsoft, after 20 years, gotten a solid and stable (in the
> sense of no feature-creep and an ever-diminishing number of bugs) version of
> all of the products in the Office suite?
What is buggy?
>
> I agree with chrisv (whom others accuse so wrongly of never saying anything
> of substance) that open data formats would be a big step forward.
You agree because you're a suck up. That and "yes we all know open
standards are better" - its not rocket science.
>
> I also agree with you that cross-platform apps are desirable... and I'm
> puzzled why people don't do it, given how easy it is.
Because it isn't easy. Half the time time apps turn out to be
Frankenstein's monster.
>
> (Well, we know why Microsoft doesn't do it... they want to force you to
> stick with their products.)
Or appeal so that people buy them.
Matt
> "Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@launchmodem.com> wrote in message
>> I also agree with you that cross-platform apps are desirable... and I'm
>> puzzled why people don't do it, given how easy it is.
>
> Non-trivial cross platform apps aren't as easy as you make them out to be.
IME Firefox is quite far from working the same on Linux as it does on
XP. I think a lot of that might come from FF's desire to have a
"native" look and feel. Or it could be some problem regarding fonts
that I don't understand. Unfortunately as I understand it, Chrome is
taking the same goal of native look and feel and, instead of using Qt
and going through the Qt API, is supposedly planning to build a lot of
GUI stuff for each OS. That approach brings a tendency for the minority
OSes to be neglected. So it would seem that true cross-platform
development hasn't yet been tried for the two leading alternative browsers.
Ezekiel
"Matt" <ma...@themattfella.xxxyyz.com> wrote in message
news:5FR0n.10185$Sh7....@newsfe25.iad...
That's really the issue - the desire to have a "native app" for each
platform. Not a cross-platform app. In theory people could just use Java and
"write once, run everywhere). And they'll have something that nobody really
wants to use on any platform. Google might know a thing or two about
software development and they certainly have enourmous amounts of resources
available to them. They know that for an app to be successful, it needs to
be *native* for each platform. That's why they're not using one of these
cross-platform toolkits.
There's not many successful "graphical" apps that are cross platform. I
can't actually think of any. Most successful cross-platform apps fall into
the "computational" category - databases, web-servers, etc. Successful apps
where the end-user needs to use the GUI a large percentage of the time
almost always have a native UI.
JeffM
>>one of the more problematic Windows applications:
>>Windows Explorer.
>>What explains its chronic and long-standing problems?
>>
>Such as?
>
Security
http://google.com/search?q=cache:_E2LJe_wEXMJ:www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/713878+domain.zone-security-model.*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-file-system.*-*-*-*.*.*-*-*-*-*.DHTML.document-object-model.*-*-*.*-*-*-*.*.*-*.HTML-Help-system.MIME-*-determination.the-*-*-*-*.GUI.*-and-ActiveX+*-*-different-*-browser+2004-06.*-*+the.IE+significant.vulnerabilities+Carnegie+University+Mellon+reduce.exposure
http://tinyurl.com/Use-ANY-OtherBrwser
http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/713878
Standards compliance
http://google.com/search?q=cache:P4JJtiECCuEJ:commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Acid3+Internet.Explorer.6+may+%22+100+100%22+12-100+20-100#Trident_-_Internet_Explorer
http://tinyurl.com/20percentReallySucks
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Acid3#Trident_-_Internet_Explorer
Chris Ahlstrom
> "Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@launchmodem.com> wrote in message
> news:hi0m7i$a3e$5...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> Matt pulled this Usenet boner:
>>
>>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, there are a *lot* of low-quality Windows applications, too.
>>>> And some of them are commercial.
>>>
>>> And very often for the same reason: not enough developers because there
>>> are not enough users.
>>
>> Not always. Consider, for example, one of the more problematic Windows
>> applications: Windows Explorer.
>>
>> What explains its chronic and long-standing problems?
>
> Such as?
The hourglass when you have a mapped drive.
And that actually happens now on my Win 7 install /without/ any mapped
drives.
That behavior has been bugging me for /years/.
With Windows Explorer, I find myself /escaping/ to the command line to
access files sometimes.
>> And why hasn't Microsoft, after 20 years, gotten a solid and stable (in
>> the sense of no feature-creep and an ever-diminishing number of
>> bugs) version of all of the products in the Office suite?
>
> Feel free to list all of the Linux apps that focus on fixing bugs instead of
> introducing new features.
You're being disengenous. You can add new features /and/ focus on fixing
bugs. But, to answer:
The kernel.
TeX.
Fluxbox.
Pretty much any GNU application.
An awful lot of projects in the Debian repositories.
Regressions do occur. But generally, an awful lot of open-source software
simply matures and works better and better as time goes on.
>> I agree with chrisv (whom others accuse so wrongly of never saying
>> anything of substance) that open data formats would be a big step forward.
>
> I think that this is nice in theory but in practice it doesn't work all that
> well. For the "core" data this is do-able but each app typically has
> unique/custom features that don't appear in other apps. So how are those
> going to be stored? Example - I embed a Visio diagram into a MS-Word
> document. Or my Open-Office doc has some OO specific macros. The "core" data
> can be stored but app specific stuff won't work.
Well, then it isn't quite open, is it?
>> I also agree with you that cross-platform apps are desirable... and I'm
>> puzzled why people don't do it, given how easy it is.
>
> Non-trivial cross platform apps aren't as easy as you make them out to be.
I beg to differ. Your buddy "Hadron", in fact, is always claiming how much
software "runs on Windows, too". The fact is, there is a very significant
amount of application and library code that runs on multiple platforms, so
it is not as hard as some like to paint it.
--
Perfect day for scrubbing the floor and other exciting things.
Chris Ahlstrom
> Ezekiel wrote:
I have to say that this sounds like bullshit, based on my experience with
Firefox, at least.
Maybe it is because I install the Vimperator on both the Linux and Windows
versions. :-D
--
Be careful! UGLY strikes 9 out of 10!
Chris Ahlstrom
> That's really the issue - the desire to have a "native app" for each
> platform. Not a cross-platform app. In theory people could just use Java and
> "write once, run everywhere). And they'll have something that nobody really
> wants to use on any platform. Google might know a thing or two about
> software development and they certainly have enourmous amounts of resources
> available to them. They know that for an app to be successful, it needs to
> be *native* for each platform. That's why they're not using one of these
> cross-platform toolkits.
>
> There's not many successful "graphical" apps that are cross platform. I
> can't actually think of any. Most successful cross-platform apps fall into
> the "computational" category - databases, web-servers, etc. Successful apps
> where the end-user needs to use the GUI a large percentage of the time
> almost always have a native UI.
I think you're making the mistake of taking correlation for cause. You may
be conflating "commercial" with "native GUI". Not to mention applying a
parochial point of view derived from the dominance of your main platform,
Windows.
Besides, there is no native UI for Linux.
--
So you're back... about time...
DFS
> Microsoft is the primary reason there are Windows-only apps.
No dumbass. The human race is the only reason there are Windows-only
apps... and Mac-only apps... and BeOS-only apps, etc.
DFS
> I agree with chrisv (whom others accuse so wrongly of never saying
> anything of substance)
You sad, sad weenie suckup.
I'd be very surprised if that turdlike chrisv made 1 post in 100 that wasn't
about plonking and trolls (specifically Hadron).
Hadron
Come, come : our resident QT expert has pronounced it pretty
easy. Surely Ahlstrom doesn't know something that Firefox and Google
have missed?
Hadron
Hold on. Ian Hilliard claims to design and implement all his on time
projects first and THEN choose the target OS. Now how does THAT work????
Matt
> Matt pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> Ezekiel wrote:
>>> "Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@launchmodem.com> wrote in message
>>>> I also agree with you that cross-platform apps are desirable... and I'm
>>>> puzzled why people don't do it, given how easy it is.
>>> Non-trivial cross platform apps aren't as easy as you make them out to be.
>> IME Firefox is quite far from working the same on Linux as it does on
>> XP. I think a lot of that might come from FF's desire to have a
>> "native" look and feel. Or it could be some problem regarding fonts
>> that I don't understand. Unfortunately as I understand it, Chrome is
>> taking the same goal of native look and feel and, instead of using Qt
>> and going through the Qt API, is supposedly planning to build a lot of
>> GUI stuff for each OS. That approach brings a tendency for the minority
>> OSes to be neglected. So it would seem that true cross-platform
>> development hasn't yet been tried for the two leading alternative browsers.
>
> I have to say that this sounds like bullshit, based on my experience with
> Firefox, at least.
Okay, here is an example that just occurred.
I went to http://www.lg.com/index.jsp and found there is a section
"About LG Corp". With Linux FF (3.0.16, Ubuntu) the choice "Social
Responsibility" appears on two lines, whereas with Windows FF (3.0.14,
XP) it appears on one line. With Linux the word "Responsibility" is
mostly cut off, and I can only see about the top 1/4 of the letters, and
I can't tell whether there are more choices below that that are cut off.
So I think it is a font problem and compare the font options on Linux
FF with those for Windows FF. On Linux I go
Edit-->Preferences-->Content-->Default Font(Advanced),
but on Windows I go
Tools-->Options-->Content-->Default Font(Advanced).
Now that difference in itself seems like pure foolishness, but more
importantly, Linux does not present the same particular font choices as
Windows. I change some of the font-size choices on Linux to match those
on Windows and try again. The "Social Responsibility" choice is still
on two lines instead of one, but now I can see the top half of
"Responsibility" instead of the top quarter.
That is an example that I think you may be able to reproduce on your
own. But a couple weeks ago I was at the verizon site, and the
rendering on Linux FF was disastrous. I couldn't find what I wanted,
and I thought the site must have been designed by complete idiots, until
I tried it on Windows FF and was able to find my way around the site. I
mean Linux FF was failing to show whole drop-down menus as if maybe the
order of rendition was wrong, and the menus were being overwritten.
Anyway I went back to the verizon site this evening, and it looked okay
with Linux, so I don't know whether the change was due to a FF update or
what. It is not something that feel I should have to think about.
> Maybe it is because I install the Vimperator on both the Linux and Windows
> versions. :-D
I don't get your apparent joke about the Vimperator.
TomB
On 2010-01-06, the following emerged from the brain of Ezekiel:
> There's not many successful "graphical" apps that are cross platform. I
> can't actually think of any. Most successful cross-platform apps fall into
> the "computational" category - databases, web-servers, etc. Successful apps
> where the end-user needs to use the GUI a large percentage of the time
> almost always have a native UI.
Gimp and Pidgin use the GTK toolkit on both Windows and GNU/Linux.
--
Hippies.They're everywhere. They wanna save the earth, but all they do
is smoke pot and smell bad.
~ Eric Cartman
Jasen Betts
> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> Matt pulled this Usenet boner:
>>
>>> Ezekiel wrote:
>>>> "Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@launchmodem.com> wrote in message
>>>>> I also agree with you that cross-platform apps are desirable... and I'm
>>>>> puzzled why people don't do it, given how easy it is.
>>>> Non-trivial cross platform apps aren't as easy as you make them out to be.
>>> IME Firefox is quite far from working the same on Linux as it does on
>>> XP. I think a lot of that might come from FF's desire to have a
> I went to http://www.lg.com/index.jsp and found there is a section
> "About LG Corp". With Linux FF (3.0.16, Ubuntu) the choice "Social
> Responsibility" appears on two lines, whereas with Windows FF (3.0.14,
> XP) it appears on one line. With Linux the word "Responsibility" is
> mostly cut off, and I can only see about the top 1/4 of the letters, and
> I can't tell whether there are more choices below that that are cut off.
> So I think it is a font problem and compare the font options on Linux
> FF with those for Windows FF. On Linux I go
> Edit-->Preferences-->Content-->Default Font(Advanced),
> but on Windows I go
> Tools-->Options-->Content-->Default Font(Advanced).
> Now that difference in itself seems like pure foolishness, but more
> importantly, Linux does not present the same particular font choices as
> Windows. I change some of the font-size choices on Linux to match those
> on Windows and try again. The "Social Responsibility" choice is still
> on two lines instead of one, but now I can see the top half of
> "Responsibility" instead of the top quarter.
dunno what you've done to it. it works here.
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
Chris Ahlstrom
> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>> Non-trivial cross platform apps aren't as easy as you make them out to be.
>>> IME Firefox is quite far from working the same on Linux as it does on
>>> XP. I think a lot of that might come from FF's desire to have a
>>> "native" look and feel. Or it could be some problem regarding fonts
>>> that I don't understand.
>>
>> I have to say that this sounds like bullshit, based on my experience with
>> Firefox, at least.
>
> Okay, here is an example that just occurred.
>
> I went to http://www.lg.com/index.jsp and found there is a section
> "About LG Corp". With Linux FF (3.0.16, Ubuntu) the choice "Social
> Responsibility" appears on two lines, whereas with Windows FF (3.0.14,
> XP) it appears on one line. With Linux the word "Responsibility" is
> mostly cut off, and I can only see about the top 1/4 of the letters, and
> I can't tell whether there are more choices below that that are cut off.
> So I think it is a font problem ...
Or CSS, depending on which IE you use.
> and compare the font options on Linux
> FF with those for Windows FF. On Linux I go
> Edit-->Preferences-->Content-->Default Font(Advanced),
> but on Windows I go
> Tools-->Options-->Content-->Default Font(Advanced).
> Now that difference in itself seems like pure foolishness, ...
Nah, it is convention.
> but more
> importantly, Linux does not present the same particular font choices as
> Windows. I change some of the font-size choices on Linux to match those
> on Windows and try again. The "Social Responsibility" choice is still
> on two lines instead of one, but now I can see the top half of
> "Responsibility" instead of the top quarter.
I really wouldn't call this a browser problem, so much as a web-site
problem.
An just hit Ctrl-minus or Ctrl-plus in both versions of FireFox
(or "zo" or "zi" in Vimperator :-)
> That is an example that I think you may be able to reproduce on your
> own. But a couple weeks ago I was at the verizon site, and the
> rendering on Linux FF was disastrous. I couldn't find what I wanted,
> and I thought the site must have been designed by complete idiots, until
> I tried it on Windows FF and was able to find my way around the site. I
> mean Linux FF was failing to show whole drop-down menus as if maybe the
> order of rendition was wrong, and the menus were being overwritten.
> Anyway I went back to the verizon site this evening, and it looked okay
> with Linux, so I don't know whether the change was due to a FF update or
> what. It is not something that feel I should have to think about.
Indeed, but blame the web site, not FireFox. The former avoids web
standards in favor of single-platform stuff, the latter adapts to each
platform as best it can.
>> Maybe it is because I install the Vimperator on both the Linux and Windows
>> versions. :-D
>
> I don't get your apparent joke about the Vimperator.
With Vimperator, you don't have to worry about the locations of
commands/options in the menus as much. A familiarity with vi helps.
I joke because my response to this nascent Snit circus is "they're different
systems, deal with it". I find the differences (except for the worst of the
web sites) trivial.
By the way, as far as off-beat web sites go, I have to applaud Microsoft for
the way they've really cleaned up how their sites (e.g. msdn.microsoft.com)
work with Linux browsers.
--
A vivid and creative mind characterizes you.
Chris Ahlstrom
> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
> On 2010-01-06, the following emerged from the brain of Ezekiel:
>> There's not many successful "graphical" apps that are cross platform. I
>> can't actually think of any. Most successful cross-platform apps fall into
>> the "computational" category - databases, web-servers, etc. Successful apps
>> where the end-user needs to use the GUI a large percentage of the time
>> almost always have a native UI.
>
> Gimp and Pidgin use the GTK toolkit on both Windows and GNU/Linux.
Firefox is successful (very) and cross-platform.
OpenOffice is successful (reasonably) and cross-platform.
VLC is successful (in OSS terms) and cross-platform. (And it is a
comforting friend I use in those rare times when I spend hours in Win
7.)
I have a difficult debating Ezekiel on "successful" apps, by the way, as my
criterion for success in an app is not based on commercial presence. I have
not purchased a commercial app in ages, though the company I work for has,
of course).
--
Are you making all this up as you go along?
TomB
> Matt pulled this Usenet boner:
>> FF with those for Windows FF. On Linux I go
>> Edit-->Preferences-->Content-->Default Font(Advanced),
>> but on Windows I go
>> Tools-->Options-->Content-->Default Font(Advanced).
>> Now that difference in itself seems like pure foolishness, ...
>
> Nah, it is convention.
I think it's silly too. I'd rather see cross-platform applications
behave the same accross environments than adapt the conventions of the
environment they are running in. If I'm working on a computer I don't
think "hey, I'm in this environments so the application will behave
like this", but rather "hey, I'm using application X so it will behave
like this".
--
I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna really
really really wanna zigazig ha.
~ The Spice Girls
Chris Ahlstrom
> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
> On 2010-01-06, the following emerged from the brain of Chris Ahlstrom:
>> Matt pulled this Usenet boner:
>>> and compare the font options on Linux
>>> FF with those for Windows FF. On Linux I go
>>> Edit-->Preferences-->Content-->Default Font(Advanced),
>>> but on Windows I go
>>> Tools-->Options-->Content-->Default Font(Advanced).
>>> Now that difference in itself seems like pure foolishness, ...
>>
>> Nah, it is convention.
>
> I think it's silly too. I'd rather see cross-platform applications
> behave the same accross environments than adapt the conventions of the
> environment they are running in. If I'm working on a computer I don't
> think "hey, I'm in this environments so the application will behave
> like this", but rather "hey, I'm using application X so it will behave
> like this".
Or "I'm in application X which follows the conventions of the platform I am
on" versus "I'm in application Y which follows the conventions of one
platform" versus "I'm in application Z which marches to a different drummer
entirely."
Either way. As long as the macros still work the same on both environments.
(Which they might not in Firefox unless the macros abstract on functionality
rather than key/mouse strokes.)
It's a tempest in a tea-pot, a yearning for a consistency that can never be
attained (or satisfy everyone even if it could be attained).
We're human. We adapt.
Choice is good.
--
The human race is a race of cowards; and I am not only marching in that
procession but carrying a banner.
-- Mark Twain
chrisv
>I have a difficult debating Ezekiel on "successful" apps, by the way, as my
>criterion for success in an app is not based on commercial presence.
There's not one Wintroll who will even admit that "Linux" is
successful, when it obviously is, and massively so.
Snit
The alternative is to create apps that do not fit in well with the OS they
are running on and thus are not as usable.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Ezekiel
"JeffM" <jef...@email.com> wrote in message
news:2464c161-9029-4f47...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Read it again - he said *Windows Explorer* and not "Internet Explorer."
Ezekiel
"TomB" <tommy.b...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:201001060...@usenet.drumscum.be...
> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
> On 2010-01-06, the following emerged from the brain of Ezekiel:
>> There's not many successful "graphical" apps that are cross platform. I
>> can't actually think of any. Most successful cross-platform apps fall
>> into
>> the "computational" category - databases, web-servers, etc. Successful
>> apps
>> where the end-user needs to use the GUI a large percentage of the time
>> almost always have a native UI.
>
> Gimp and Pidgin use the GTK toolkit on both Windows and GNU/Linux.
Perhaps they do (I don't use either) but I'd still classify these as being
"niche" applications. I don't consider either one of these as having a large
enough user-base to be "successful." I better term than "successful" might
be applications with "widespread popularity" meaning something like Firefox,
etc.
Ezekiel
> TomB pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
>> On 2010-01-06, the following emerged from the brain of Ezekiel:
>>> There's not many successful "graphical" apps that are cross platform. I
>>> can't actually think of any. Most successful cross-platform apps fall
>>> into
>>> the "computational" category - databases, web-servers, etc. Successful
>>> apps
>>> where the end-user needs to use the GUI a large percentage of the time
>>> almost always have a native UI.
>>
>> Gimp and Pidgin use the GTK toolkit on both Windows and GNU/Linux.
>
> Firefox is successful (very) and cross-platform.
Yes it's cross-platform. And yes Firefox is very successful. But Firefox
uses a native UI for each platform which is far from trivial/easy to do.
They effectively have N-many different native GUI's that they support - one
native GUI for each platform. In the Firefox source code look in the
.../mozilla/widget/src directory and there are sub-dirs there for beos,
windows, os2, cocoa (OSX), and etc. Writing Firefox so that the GUI is
*native* for each platform isn't something that just happens.
Don't read my original post too literally. When I wrote that "There's not
many succesful graphical apps that are x-platform" I'm not saying that
things like Firefox, etc don't exist - they do but they are successful
because they have a *native* GUI for each platform. What I'm talking about
are successful X-platform apps that use some sort of "GTK-like" toolkit
where they are essentially "write-once" for all platforms.
> I have a difficult debating Ezekiel on "successful" apps, by the way, as
> my
> criterion for success in an app is not based on commercial presence. I
> have
> not purchased a commercial app in ages, though the company I work for has,
> of course).
As I mentioned to TomB - a better word would be "popular apps" and I still
believe that apps need a native UI for the platform in order to be
"popular/successful." There's really no (or very few) "popular" apps that I
can think of that are written using some sort of X-platform GUI toolkit. All
of the popular (stuff people like and want to run) apps have native GUIs.
Hadron
Gimp, excellent app thought it is, should not be being vaunted as an
cross platform UI example either. It's universally condemned as one of
the worst.
Ezekiel
> Ezekiel pulled this Usenet boner:
>
>> "Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@launchmodem.com> wrote in message
>> news:hi0m7i$a3e$5...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> Matt pulled this Usenet boner:
>>>
>>>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well, there are a *lot* of low-quality Windows applications, too.
>>>>> And some of them are commercial.
>>>>
>>>> And very often for the same reason: not enough developers because there
>>>> are not enough users.
>>>
>>> Not always. Consider, for example, one of the more problematic Windows
>>> applications: Windows Explorer.
>>>
>>> What explains its chronic and long-standing problems?
>>
>> Such as?
>
> The hourglass when you have a mapped drive.
>
> And that actually happens now on my Win 7 install /without/ any mapped
> drives.
>
> That behavior has been bugging me for /years/.
I'm not saying this doesn't happen... but it doesn't happen to me at work or
at home. In either case I would argue that this isn't a problem with Windows
Explorer - it's most likely somethng at a lower networking/connection level
and Win-Explorer is simply waiting for something else to finish.
> With Windows Explorer, I find myself /escaping/ to the command line to
> access files sometimes.
I'll do that too but it depends on what it is that I want to do at the time.
I use Win-Explorer and it's pretty responsive. If there's some sort of
network delay or bottleneck then that's really outside of it's control.
>>> And why hasn't Microsoft, after 20 years, gotten a solid and stable (in
>>> the sense of no feature-creep and an ever-diminishing number of
>>> bugs) version of all of the products in the Office suite?
>>
>> Feel free to list all of the Linux apps that focus on fixing bugs instead
>> of
>> introducing new features.
>
> You're being disengenous. You can add new features /and/ focus on fixing
> bugs. But, to answer:
>
> The kernel.
>
> TeX.
I think the implicit criteria is to compare apples-to-apples. (ie - not a
GUI Office suite to a kernel). I'm talking about something like Gimp,
Open-Office, etc. This genre of apps typically prefers to add new features.
The reality is that hardly anyone is going to upgrade or get a new version
of these apps because some obscure bugs were fixed - but they will do this
if new features are added.
Hadron
> "Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@launchmodem.com> wrote in message
> news:hi1vbj$ct0$5...@news.eternal-september.org...
>> TomB pulled this Usenet boner:
>>
>>> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
>>> On 2010-01-06, the following emerged from the brain of Ezekiel:
>>>> There's not many successful "graphical" apps that are cross platform. I
>>>> can't actually think of any. Most successful cross-platform apps fall
>>>> into
>>>> the "computational" category - databases, web-servers, etc. Successful
>>>> apps
>>>> where the end-user needs to use the GUI a large percentage of the time
>>>> almost always have a native UI.
>>>
>>> Gimp and Pidgin use the GTK toolkit on both Windows and GNU/Linux.
>>
>> Firefox is successful (very) and cross-platform.
>
> Yes it's cross-platform. And yes Firefox is very successful. But Firefox
> uses a native UI for each platform which is far from trivial/easy to do.
> They effectively have N-many different native GUI's that they support - one
> native GUI for each platform. In the Firefox source code look in the
> .../mozilla/widget/src directory and there are sub-dirs there for beos,
> windows, os2, cocoa (OSX), and etc. Writing Firefox so that the GUI is
> *native* for each platform isn't something that just happens.
Zeke, Chris once compiled a gtk qpp at home. He told us. QED. Cross
platform is easy and he really can not understand why all these industry
leaders dont do it more ....
>
> Don't read my original post too literally. When I wrote that "There's not
> many succesful graphical apps that are x-platform" I'm not saying that
> things like Firefox, etc don't exist - they do but they are successful
> because they have a *native* GUI for each platform. What I'm talking about
> are successful X-platform apps that use some sort of "GTK-like" toolkit
> where they are essentially "write-once" for all platforms.
It was quite clear what was meant in the context.
>
>> I have a difficult debating Ezekiel on "successful" apps, by the way, as
>> my
>> criterion for success in an app is not based on commercial presence. I
>> have
>> not purchased a commercial app in ages, though the company I work for has,
>> of course).
>
> As I mentioned to TomB - a better word would be "popular apps" and I still
> believe that apps need a native UI for the platform in order to be
> "popular/successful." There's really no (or very few) "popular" apps that I
> can think of that are written using some sort of X-platform GUI toolkit. All
> of the popular (stuff people like and want to run) apps have native
> GUIs.
COLA does not agree that a consistent UI is important don't forget. All
evidence not withstanding.
ChiTown
> Feel free to list all of the Linux apps that focus on fixing bugs instead of
> introducing new features.
Ubuntu does that. It keeps getting better and more stable with each
release. I'm looking forward to the next version.
Ezekiel
"ChiTown" <chito...@entmail.org> wrote in message
news:ddnrvlo30qpo.z...@40tude.net...
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!! Good one!!!
Chris Ahlstrom
> Don't read my original post too literally. When I wrote that "There's not
> many succesful graphical apps that are x-platform" I'm not saying that
> things like Firefox, etc don't exist - they do but they are successful
> because they have a *native* GUI for each platform. What I'm talking about
> are successful X-platform apps that use some sort of "GTK-like" toolkit
> where they are essentially "write-once" for all platforms.
I'm sure that some users do prefer an app that meld into the rest of the
desktop, have the same window decorations, similar menus, and hew to the
current "theme" setting.
> As I mentioned to TomB - a better word would be "popular apps" and I still
> believe that apps need a native UI for the platform in order to be
> "popular/successful." There's really no (or very few) "popular" apps that I
> can think of that are written using some sort of X-platform GUI toolkit. All
> of the popular (stuff people like and want to run) apps have native GUIs.
Well, one exception I see is software that accompanies Windows hardware.
Also, AVG definitely has its own look (though more akin to Win 7's look).
I do think that a lot of the apps (e.g. audacity) built with cross-platform
toolkits (e.g. wxWidgets) just don't get discovered as much by Windows users
because other alternatives pop up to the top in searches.
--
The only way to keep your health is to eat what you don't want, drink what
you don't like, and do what you'd rather not.
-- Mark Twain
Chris Ahlstrom
>> With Windows Explorer, I find myself /escaping/ to the command line to
>> access files sometimes.
>
> I'll do that too but it depends on what it is that I want to do at the time.
> I use Win-Explorer and it's pretty responsive. If there's some sort of
> network delay or bottleneck then that's really outside of it's control.
Except that the command-line always works without delay!
> I think the implicit criteria is to compare apples-to-apples. (ie - not a
> GUI Office suite to a kernel). I'm talking about something like Gimp,
> Open-Office, etc. This genre of apps typically prefers to add new features.
> The reality is that hardly anyone is going to upgrade or get a new version
> of these apps because some obscure bugs were fixed - but they will do this
> if new features are added.
Well, I'm not sure that's true on Linux, just because you can easily update
/everything/ with a few "clicks".
And there are a lot of basic apps, libraries, and fonts that get frequent
point-release updates in Debian, and I suspect those are just bug fixes.
But even OpenOffice.org gets point releases.
--
"Good afternoon, madam. How may I help you?"
"Good afternoon. I'd like a FrintArms HandCannon, please."
"A--? Oh, now, that's an awfully big gun for such a lovely lady. I
mean, not everybody thinks ladies should carry guns at all, though I
say they have a right to. But I think... I might... Let's have a look
down here. I might have just the thing for you. Yes, here we are!
Look at that, isn't it neat? Now that is a FrintArms product as well,
but it's what's called a laser -- a light-pistol some people call
them. Very small, as you see; fits easily into a pocket or bag; won't
spoil the line of a jacket; and you won't feel you're lugging half a
tonne of iron around with you. We do a range of matching accessories,
including -- if I may say so -- a rather saucy garter holster. Wish I
got to do the fitting for that! Ha -- just my little joke. And
there's *even*... here we are -- this special presentation pack: gun,
charged battery, charging unit, beautiful glider-hide shoulder holster
with adjustable fitting and contrast stitching, and a discount on your
next battery. Full instructions, of course, and a voucher for free
lessons at your local gun club or range. Or there's the *special*
presentation pack; it has all the other one's got but with *two*
charged batteries and a night-sight, too. Here, feel that -- don't
worry, it's a dummy battery -- isn't it neat? Feel how light it is?
Smooth, see? No bits to stick out and catch on your clothes, *and*
beautifully balanced. And of course the beauty of a laser is, there's
no recoil. Because it's shooting light, you see? Beautiful gun,
beautiful gun; my wife has one. Really. That's not a line, she
really has. Now, I can do you that one -- with a battery and a free
charge -- for ninety-five; or the presentation pack on a special
offer for one-nineteen; or this, the special presentation pack, for
one-forty-nine."
"I'll take the special."
"Sound choice, madam, *sound* choice. Now, do--?"
"And a HandCannon, with the eighty-mill silencer, five GP clips, three
six-five AP/wire-fl' echettes clips, two bipropellant HE clips, and a
Special Projectile Pack if you have one -- the one with the embedding
rounds, not the signalers. I assume the night-sight on this toy is
compatible?"
"Aah... yes, And how does madam wish to pay?"
She slapped her credit card on the counter. "Eventually."
-- Iain M. Banks, "Against a Dark Background"
TomB
> I do think that a lot of the apps (e.g. audacity) built with cross-platform
> toolkits (e.g. wxWidgets) just don't get discovered as much by Windows users
> because other alternatives pop up to the top in searches.
Audacity is often bundled with lower end USB audio devices. My Lenco
L-300 USB record player came with audacity on a bundled CD.
--
Life is the art of drawing without an eraser.
~ John W. Gardner
Ezekiel
> On 2010-01-06, the following emerged from the brain of Chris Ahlstrom:
>> I do think that a lot of the apps (e.g. audacity) built with
>> cross-platform
>> toolkits (e.g. wxWidgets) just don't get discovered as much by Windows
>> users
>> because other alternatives pop up to the top in searches.
>
> Audacity is often bundled with lower end USB audio devices. My Lenco
> L-300 USB record player came with audacity on a bundled CD.
I'm a huge fan of Audacity and have been using it for several years. It's
more than powerful and capable enough for my (fairly) basic needs and I find
that it's also easy to use. If I was doing pro or semi-pro level audio work
it might be limiting but for converting audio formats, normalizing audio
levels and things like that I think it's a great app.
DFS
> On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 19:54:51 -0500, Ezekiel wrote:
>
>> Feel free to list all of the Linux apps that focus on fixing bugs
>> instead of introducing new features.
>
> Ubuntu does that. It keeps getting better and more stable with each
> release.
That's a horseshit lie and you know it.
Every single one of the last 5 versions has caused major problems for more
than a third of installers/upgraders. It hasn't become any more stable or
reliable at all with each release
The last 5 "Ubuntu is perfect for laptops, desktops and servers" fiascos:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?s=eb7cf506b274c622cc3b6de00a2c0c4a&t=1305924&highlight=Karmic+freeze
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1133869&highlight=experience
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=963853&highlight=intrepid
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=764847&highlight=experience
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=580852&highlight=experience
.
> I'm looking forward to the next version.
As much as you're looking forward to your afternoon dump?
Keep Ubuntu hope alive!
ChiTown
> ChiTown wrote:
>> On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 19:54:51 -0500, Ezekiel wrote:
>>
>>> Feel free to list all of the Linux apps that focus on fixing bugs
>>> instead of introducing new features.
>>
>> Ubuntu does that. It keeps getting better and more stable with each
>> release.
>
> That's a horseshit lie and you know it.
>
> Every single one of the last 5 versions has caused major problems for more
> than a third of installers/upgraders. It hasn't become any more stable or
> reliable at all with each release
>
> The last 5 "Ubuntu is perfect for laptops, desktops and servers" fiascos:
>
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?s=eb7cf506b274sc622cc3b6de00a2c0c4a&t=1305924&highlight=Karmic+freeze
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=11338d69&highlight=experience
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=96385a3&highlight=intrepid
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=7648v47&highlight=experience
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58a0852&highlight=experience
It's easy to cherry pick people from help groups who are having
problems. How many people post to help groups for the purpose of
letting others know they have no problems? Very few in fact.
Ubuntu has gotten much better with each release and that's a fact. Why
not spend your time in the Windows 7 groups where people are screaming
for Microsoft to fix the bugs.
>> I'm looking forward to the next version.
>
> As much as you're looking forward to your afternoon dump?
Projecting again?
> Keep Ubuntu hope alive!
Ubuntu is doing just fine and the next release will improve upon the
current version unlike Windows which gets worse with each new version.
Ezekiel
> On Wed, 6 Jan 2010 11:40:17 -0500, DFS wrote:
>
>> ChiTown wrote:
>>> On Tue, 5 Jan 2010 19:54:51 -0500, Ezekiel wrote:
>>>
>>>> Feel free to list all of the Linux apps that focus on fixing bugs
>>>> instead of introducing new features.
>>>
>>> Ubuntu does that. It keeps getting better and more stable with each
>>> release.
>>
>> That's a horseshit lie and you know it.
>>
>> Every single one of the last 5 versions has caused major problems for
>> more
>> than a third of installers/upgraders. It hasn't become any more stable
>> or
>> reliable at all with each release
>>
>> The last 5 "Ubuntu is perfect for laptops, desktops and servers" fiascos:
>>
>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?s=eb7cf506b274sc622cc3b6de00a2c0c4a&t=1305924&highlight=Karmic+freeze
>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=11338d69&highlight=experience
>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=96385a3&highlight=intrepid
>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=7648v47&highlight=experience
>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58a0852&highlight=experience
>
> It's easy to cherry pick people from help groups who are having
> problems. How many people post to help groups for the purpose of
> letting others know they have no problems? Very few in fact.
> Ubuntu has gotten much better with each release and that's a fact.
"Fact" - sounds a lot more like your personal opinion to me. If it's a fact
then what's the basis for this so called "fact" of yours?
A popular consensus has been that Karmic Koala (9.10) is *not* as stable as
the previous releases and has actually brought criticism to Ubuntu's
decision to release the distro based on an arbitrary release date instead of
releasing it when it's less buggy and actually ready for release.
Hadron
Why? What's so buggy you need an entire new version?
Come on freetard fan boy, spill the beans.
ChiTown
It works fine for me as well as the other some 200 people in the local
user group. If you just read the help forums you are going to see
people with problems. That is why they are there in the first place.
> A popular consensus has been that Karmic Koala (9.10) is *not* as stable as
> the previous releases and has actually brought criticism to Ubuntu's
> decision to release the distro based on an arbitrary release date instead of
> releasing it when it's less buggy and actually ready for release.
That hasn't been my experience at all. Where are you getting this
from? I've heard of upgrade problems, some major in fact and that is
an area that needs serious attention but clean installs seem to go
fine. We have close to 200 people who have gone to the latest version
of Ubuntu and aside from the few that upgraded and did have problems,
it's been mostly smooth sailing. Each time a new version of Ubuntu is
released the Microsoft shills come out in force in an attempt to
discredit it. Why they are so afraid of Linux is the question that
should be answered.
ChiTown
How much is Microsoft paying you to spew this nonsense all day and
night?
Kluzbahslkwshoosen
"ChiTown" <chito...@entmail.org> wrote in message
news:14jpk4bit7j3w.67yap92at5o4$.dlg@40tude.net...
chrisv
> Quack snotted:
>
>> ChiTown writes:
>>>
>>> (Ubuntu) keeps getting better and more stable with each
>>> release. I'm looking forward to the next version.
>>
>> Why? What's so buggy you need an entire new version?
You never asked that question of people who were looking foward to
Windows 7, did you, Quack.
Why not, "true Linux advocate" Hadron Quack?
>> Come on freetard fan boy, spill the beans.
>
>How much is Microsoft paying you to spew this nonsense all day and
>night?
Eh? Don't you know that "Hadron" is a "true Linux advocate"?
According to him, anyway.
--
"Now Vista is cleaning up its act and its pretty much game over for
Linux." - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark, January 2008.
cc
Tree Fitty
Ezekiel
So it is NOT a fact - but merely your opinion. Thanks for clearing that up.
>> A popular consensus has been that Karmic Koala (9.10) is *not* as stable
>> as
>> the previous releases and has actually brought criticism to Ubuntu's
>> decision to release the distro based on an arbitrary release date instead
>> of
>> releasing it when it's less buggy and actually ready for release.
> That hasn't been my experience at all. Where are you getting this
> from? I've heard of upgrade problems, some major in fact and that is
> an area that needs serious attention but clean installs seem to go
> fine.
Major upgrade problems are one of the problems. There have been several
criticizing this - including (one I was able to find quickly) Mario
Limonciello who's the maintainer of Mythbuntu:
"I would prefer that the release cycles were not strictly six months," said
Limonciello. "Over the last few releases there have been a variety of bugs
that weren't deemed to 'hold up' the release and could just be fixed in a
Stable Release Update. I'm of the opinion if you have a fix for the bug that
you know works, you shouldn't put off the fix just to meet a deadline for
releasing a CD. It's better to include the fix sooner and give a better
experience to the user out of the box."
Then there's this article in Linux-Mag - "Hey Ubuntu, Stop Making Linux Look
Bad" When Linux-Mag publically comes out and says that 9.10 is "making
Linux look bad" then that's more convincing to me than your new nym claiming
how "it's a fact" that Ubuntu gets better with each release.
<quote>
Ubuntu is starting to make dents in the commercial arena and that's great,
but do we really need fancy new features like Ubuntu One when basic
functionality (that quite frankly should be solved in the 21st century)
doesn't work as expected? Isn't Ubuntu supposed to "Just Work"T?
Don't believe me? Just take a look at the release notes for 9.10 and read
the 40 odd bugs for this "stable" operating system:
.Boot from degraded RAID array broken
.File system corruption with so called "large files" over 512MB
.Hibernation unavailable with automatic partitioning
.Kubuntu package manager does not warn about installing from unsigned
package repositories
.No USB devices work on MSI Wind netbooks, plus flickering graphics
.No Xv support for Intel graphics
.Samba nmbd daemon not started during boot
.System won't boot with converted ext4 file system
.Ubuntu Netbook Remix missing shutdown applet
.Ubuntu One client corrupts data
.Wireless kill switch segfaults kernel
.X server crashes when using a Wacom tablet
...and others (plus more discovered after release).
You must be joking.
</quote>
http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7600/1.html
"The Register" (a supporter of Linux) also had an article: Early adopters
bloodied by Ubuntu's Karmic Koala - Ubuntu 9.10 is causing outrage and
frustration, with early adopters wishing they'd stuck with previous versions
of the Linux distro.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/03/karmic_koala_frustration/
Hadron
You are right about the groups. Howevere there are not 200 people in
your LUG that use Ubuntu.
You pulled that number out of your arse.
Hadron
Why would MS pay me for telling people to stay from fan boy junk like
Ubuntu and use Debian?
Nice nym btw!
TomB
I have done pretty advanced stuff with audacity, e.g. snapping a
rhythmically 'loose' vocal track to a click track. It's a great little
program.
--
tommy@mordor:~$ telnet mordor
telnet: could not resolve mordor/telnet: One does not simply telnet
into mordor!
Snit
> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.advocacy.]
> On 2010-01-06, the following emerged from the brain of Chris Ahlstrom:
>> Matt pulled this Usenet boner:
>>> and compare the font options on Linux
>>> FF with those for Windows FF. On Linux I go
>>> Edit-->Preferences-->Content-->Default Font(Advanced),
>>> but on Windows I go
>>> Tools-->Options-->Content-->Default Font(Advanced).
>>> Now that difference in itself seems like pure foolishness, ...
>>
>> Nah, it is convention.
>
> I think it's silly too. I'd rather see cross-platform applications
> behave the same accross environments than adapt the conventions of the
> environment they are running in. If I'm working on a computer I don't
> think "hey, I'm in this environments so the application will behave
> like this", but rather "hey, I'm using application X so it will behave
> like this".
This leads to working with the lowest common denominator between
platforms... but, given that developers on Linux cannot trust what
environment their apps will run in, it is common on Linux. This is one of
the things that holds Linux back, hence no proxy icons, PDF Services, path
of windows, or similar usability benefits. Just no way to get those to be
pretty much universal on any general purpose Linux distro.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
TomB
We've been through this. I rather not go through it again :-p
I've given thought to your 'lowest common denominator' concept though.
In a way you're correct. In fact that's exactly what I do when I write
a shell script. I only use features available in the original Almquist
shell to ensure maximum portability. It's a concious choice, and I'm
glad to accept the limitations this implies. The big advantage to me
is that I can use the scripts I write on any UNIX-like system without
having to worry about compatibility.
--
Always be wary of any helpful item that weighs less than its
operating manual.
~ Terry Pratchett
Snit
PM:
OK.
> I've given thought to your 'lowest common denominator' concept though.
> In a way you're correct. In fact that's exactly what I do when I write
> a shell script. I only use features available in the original Almquist
> shell to ensure maximum portability. It's a concious choice, and I'm
> glad to accept the limitations this implies. The big advantage to me
> is that I can use the scripts I write on any UNIX-like system without
> having to worry about compatibility.
I do not do much cross platform shell scripting, but I do design / develop
web pages and strive to have them work on IE, Firefox, and Safari (which
covers the main three engines). I go back a couple versions on each - back
to IE 6 even (what a pain). My sites work for all, but I have to give up
taking advantage of newer features and browser / OS specific features (or
use some hacks). I doubt you will find many web developers who celebrate
the experience of working with IE 6... when in environments where I know the
clients will all use a modern version of, say, Firefox I can then focus on
that - it reduced development time and increases the size of the toolset I
can use.
When writing apps, you *can* determine what OS they run on... and more
easily have different versions for different OSs. For any even moderately
complex GUI based app there is very little *user* benefit for not doing so,
though the write-one-debug...um, run-everywhere app environments do have
some benefits, too.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Matt
> Matt stated in post 5FR0n.10185$Sh7....@newsfe25.iad on 1/5/10 6:26 PM:>>>> I also agree with you that cross-platform apps are desirable... and I'm
>>>> puzzled why people don't do it, given how easy it is.
>>> Non-trivial cross platform apps aren't as easy as you make them out to be.
>>
>> IME Firefox is quite far from working the same on Linux as it does on
>> XP. I think a lot of that might come from FF's desire to have a
>> "native" look and feel. Or it could be some problem regarding fonts
>> that I don't understand. Unfortunately as I understand it, Chrome is
>> taking the same goal of native look and feel and, instead of using Qt
>> and going through the Qt API, is supposedly planning to build a lot of
>> GUI stuff for each OS. That approach brings a tendency for the minority
>> OSes to be neglected. So it would seem that true cross-platform
>> development hasn't yet been tried for the two leading alternative browsers.
>
> The alternative is to create apps that do not fit in well with the OS they
> are running on and thus are not as usable.
Consistent with TomB's remark elsewhere, usability depends on the user's
mindset.
If the user is devoted to a certain OS that has an established look and
feel, then he gets surprised by anything that acts foreign. When
somebody builds a cross-platform app, he should build to suit the user
who knows he is using a cross-platform app and who wants to use a
cross-platform app and who accepts the idea that consistency across
platforms is more important than adapting to whatever platform he
happens to be on at the time. The user who seeks a cross-platform app
by his nature wants the platform to be irrelevant.
You might debate whether Windows or Mac has a superior look and feel and
whether Linux has any recognizable look and feel at all. I would that
cross-platform programmers become philistines and choose an arbitrary
convention, maybe 1) the look and feel of Windows, as that presents the
least surprise to randomly-recruited users of a cross-platform app, or
2) a look and feel that is convenient to implement for lots of apps, as
available in something like Qt or Java, so that the look and feel is
inherited automatically from the toolset.
Snit
> Snit wrote:
>> Matt stated in post 5FR0n.10185$Sh7....@newsfe25.iad on 1/5/10 6:26 PM:
>>
>>> Ezekiel wrote:
>>>> "Chris Ahlstrom" <ahls...@launchmodem.com> wrote in message
>>>>> I also agree with you that cross-platform apps are desirable... and I'm
>>>>> puzzled why people don't do it, given how easy it is.
>>>> Non-trivial cross platform apps aren't as easy as you make them out to be.
>>>
>>> IME Firefox is quite far from working the same on Linux as it does on
>>> XP. I think a lot of that might come from FF's desire to have a
>>> "native" look and feel. Or it could be some problem regarding fonts
>>> that I don't understand. Unfortunately as I understand it, Chrome is
>>> taking the same goal of native look and feel and, instead of using Qt
>>> and going through the Qt API, is supposedly planning to build a lot of
>>> GUI stuff for each OS. That approach brings a tendency for the minority
>>> OSes to be neglected. So it would seem that true cross-platform
>>> development hasn't yet been tried for the two leading alternative browsers.
>>
>> The alternative is to create apps that do not fit in well with the OS they
>> are running on and thus are not as usable.
>
> Consistent with TomB's remark elsewhere, usability depends on the user's
> mindset.
To some extent, perhaps - but there is a massive amount of established
*science* to GUI usability.
> If the user is devoted to a certain OS that has an established look and
> feel, then he gets surprised by anything that acts foreign. When
> somebody builds a cross-platform app, he should build to suit the user
> who knows he is using a cross-platform app and who wants to use a
> cross-platform app and who accepts the idea that consistency across
> platforms is more important than adapting to whatever platform he
> happens to be on at the time. The user who seeks a cross-platform app
> by his nature wants the platform to be irrelevant.
I use many cross platform apps: Firefox, MS Office, Dreamweaver, Photoshop,
VLC, etc. I am happy the developers are aware enough of usability to
understand the importance of having the programs work with the OS I use (and
others).
> You might debate whether Windows or Mac has a superior look and feel and
> whether Linux has any recognizable look and feel at all.
It has a number of inconsistent and poorly followed UI conventions... which
makes it a bit of a usability mess. When you are using such an environment,
of course, there is no goal for developers to really strive for... best they
can do is pick one and try to actually follow it (which many clearly do
not)... unless there is a user based reason not to.
> I would that cross-platform programmers become philistines and choose an
> arbitrary convention, maybe 1) the look and feel of Windows, as that presents
> the least surprise to randomly-recruited users of a cross-platform app, or 2)
> a look and feel that is convenient to implement for lots of apps, as available
> in something like Qt or Java, so that the look and feel is inherited
> automatically from the toolset.
I want my apps, when possible, to take advantage of the look and feel *and*
functionality of my OS. That, of course, does not happen 100%, but it is
almost always better for the user when an app developer spends the time to
do this.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Matt
> COLA does not agree that a consistent UI is important don't forget. All
> evidence not withstanding.
It is possible to get consistency for all apps that are generated with a
given cross-platform toolset, say Java or Qt, while ignoring consistency
with the host OS. It should be possible to gather and grow a set of
users with that mindset.
It is another chicken-egg aspect of replacing the dominant OS.