[News] [Rival] Possible MS-OOXML Patent Ambush Identified, ISO Warned

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Roy Schestowitz

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Jan 13, 2008, 8:45:04 AM1/13/08
to
ISO warned about possible patent violations of DIS29500 (aka OOXML)

,----[ Quote ]
| I have just send the following email to ISO members (you can find some of
| their email addresses on the INCTIS website) to warn them about the possible
| patent ambush...
`----

http://jeremywang67.blogspot.com/2008/01/iso-warned-about-possible-patent.html

Also new:

Google denies infringing search patent

,----[ Quote ]
| The plaintiffs say that Google uses this system to run its search engine, and
| that the system was invented by Kenneth Baclawski, an associate professor at
| Northeastern and one of Jarg's founders. Northeastern was awarded a patent
| for the system, which it has licensed exclusively to Jarg.
`----

http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/01/11/Google-denies-infringing-search-patent_1.html


Related:

Digging in the Comments: Patents

,----[ Quote ]
| Patent licensing is probably the most important aspect for all third parties
| that want to implement or use the Open XML specification. Unfortunately the
| Ballot Resolution Meeting cannot discuss these aspects because only technical
| and editorial issues would get resolved.  
|
| [...]
|
| When you have a patent which covers Open XML and you refuse to license it,
| the standard process gets stalled. Large companies in the standardization
| process are reluctant to use that nuke option. Given the ambush that the
| software patent practice means today it is quite possible that Open XML
| infringes a patent and all parties eventually have an obligation to license
| it.    
`----

http://www.noooxml.org/forum/t-31491/digging-in-the-comments:patents


Patent threat looms large over OOXML

,----[ Quote ]
| "If OOXML goes through as an ISO standard, the IT industry, government and
| business will encumbered with a 6000-page specification peppered with
| potential patent liabilities" said NZOSS President Don Christie.  
|
| "Patent threats have already been used to spread doubt amongst organisations
| keen to take advantage of the benefits of open source. No one knows whether
| such claims have any merit, but it is calculated to deter the development and
| use of open and alternative toolsets."  
`----

http://nzoss.org.nz/node/179


Cyberlaw OOXML Seminar 14 December

,----[ Quote ]
| However, this raises the issue - what assurance does a developer have that
| such a large specification is not the subject of third party patent claims?  
|       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
| The pedigree of the specification is certainly no reason for hope, Microsoft
| has been the target of third party patent claims for some time now including
| some high profile losses in patent suits. The fact that the specification has
| been developed behind closed doors and on a fast track means that there has
| been no adequate opportunity to evaluate the likelihood of third party patent
| claims against the specifications. The sheer size of the document suggests
| there will be at least a couple hiding in there somewhere.      
`----

http://brendanscott.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/cyberlaw-ooxml-seminar-14-december/


Corrupt countries were more likely to support the OOXML document format

,----[ Quote ]
| Is this just a random coincidence? The median of the CPI index of the above
| mentioned 70 countries is 3.95. Of the most corrupted half (CPI index less
| than 3.95) 23 or 77% voted for approval (approval or approval with comments)
| and 7 or 23% for disapproval; 5 abstained. Of the least corrupted half (CPI
| index more than 3.95) 13 or 54% voted for approval and 11 or 46% voted for
| disapproval; 11 abstained - see the table below.      
`----

http://www.effi.org/blog/kai-2007-09-05.en.html


Microsoft accused of more OOXML standards fiddling

,----[ Quote ]
| However the 11 new countries are refusing to say how they will vote. These
| include Cote d'Ivoire, Cyprus, Ecuador, Jamaica, Lebanon, Malta, Pakistan,
| Trinidad and Tobago, Turkey, Uruguay and Venezuela. Most people seem to think
| that these have been put there by Vole to make sure the standard gets pushed
| through.    
`----

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=42106

Tom Shelton

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Jan 13, 2008, 12:06:19 PM1/13/08
to
On Jan 13, 6:45 am, Roy Schestowitz <newsgro...@schestowitz.com>
wrote:

> ISO warned about possible patent violations of DIS29500 (aka OOXML)
>
> ,----[ Quote ]
> | I have just send the following email to ISO members (you can find some of
> | their email addresses on the INCTIS website) to warn them about the possible  
> | patent ambush...
> `----
>
> http://jeremywang67.blogspot.com/2008/01/iso-warned-about-possible-pa...
>

Uhmmm.... If OOXML violates that patent, doesn't ODF as well? Since
the claim is by Scientigo is that XML in general violates their
patent....

--
Tom Shelton

Erik Funkenbusch

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Jan 13, 2008, 1:16:34 PM1/13/08
to
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:45:04 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:

> ISO warned about possible patent violations of DIS29500 (aka OOXML)
>
> ,----[ Quote ]
>| I have just send the following email to ISO members (you can find some of
>| their email addresses on the INCTIS website) to warn them about the possible
>| patent ambush...
> `----
>
> http://jeremywang67.blogspot.com/2008/01/iso-warned-about-possible-patent.html

Wow, talk about cutting off ones nose to spite the face.

In their zeal to produce anything to counter Microsoft and OOXML, advocates
are willing to destroy their own ODF to do so.

Wow, just wow.

Jerry McBride

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Jan 13, 2008, 2:02:00 PM1/13/08
to
Tom Shelton wrote:

From what I read, Scientigo is "just another SCO"... It'll cry, shake and
poop in their diapers and smell like hell... but in the end they'll go out
of business too. What I find amazing is the "microsoft" ingredient... Don't
they ever let things lay?


--

Jerry McBride (jmcb...@mail-on.us)

Jerry McBride

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Jan 13, 2008, 2:43:38 PM1/13/08
to
Tom Shelton wrote:

If it gets too ugly... we could all move to yaml... :') Much more readable
than xml... anyday...


--

Jerry McBride (jmcb...@mail-on.us)

Tim Smith

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Jan 13, 2008, 7:08:27 PM1/13/08
to
In article <1461255.2...@schestowitz.com>,
Roy Schestowitz <newsg...@schestowitz.com> wrote:

> ISO warned about possible patent violations of DIS29500 (aka OOXML)
>
> ,----[ Quote ]
> | I have just send the following email to ISO members (you can find some of
> | their email addresses on the INCTIS website) to warn them about the
> | possible
> | patent ambush...
> `----
>
> http://jeremywang67.blogspot.com/2008/01/iso-warned-about-possible-patent.html

It's a rather broad patent covering most or all XML. That means it
covers ODF just as much as it covers OOXML, so why do you try to make it
sound like this is just an OOXML problem?

--
--Tim Smith

High Plains Thumper

unread,
Jan 13, 2008, 10:08:04 PM1/13/08
to
Tim Smith wrote:

> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>
>> ISO warned about possible patent violations of DIS29500 (aka OOXML)
>>
>> ,----[ Quote ]
>> | I have just send the following email to ISO members (you can find
>> | some of their email addresses on the INCTIS website) to warn them
>> | about the possible patent ambush...
>> `----
>>
>> http://jeremywang67.blogspot.com/2008/01/iso-warned-about-possible-patent.html
>
> It's a rather broad patent covering most or all XML. That means it
> covers ODF just as much as it covers OOXML, so why do you try to make it
> sound like this is just an OOXML problem?

Oh, I see, it is a case of reading into a quote, is it not? Care to
discuss the article points or give your counterpoints instead of your
pointless accusations, hmmm, Timmy?

Here is what PJ has to say of this new patent troll effort:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20051021183953795

[quote]
Scientigo says it met with 47 companies in the last few months, including
Microsoft and Oracle. So, they have a list of potential victims.
"Microsoft declined to say whether it has spoken to anyone from
Scientigo." Uh huh. Right. I know several, including a Microsoft spokesman
and Andy Updegrove of OASIS, are quoted by ZDNET as saying that the claims
are questionable and will be challenged. Many patent claims are
questionable. But the only way to know is by means of incredibly expensive
litigation, with an uncertain outcome. What kind of system is that?

Remember the ridiculous jury award to Kodak over Sun?
[/quote]

Here I find an interesting statement by PJ on past history of Microsoft
FUD. Article continued:

[quote]
Remember Michael Anderer indicating that Microsoft's strategy would be to
make sure FOSS is hit with one patent lawsuit after another until it lies
down and dies? Remember Andrew Orlowski writing about Ballmer's speech in
Asia, which he later tried to clarify, that Microsoft's weapon of choice
is not patent infringement lawsuits, but rather the *threat* of them, or
to put it plainly, FUD? That success for Microsoft would be in the
*bringing* of lawsuits (or having someone bring them), one after another,
whereby the ultimate outcome doesn't matter so much as being able to tie
up everyone in costly litigation, so it can herald the "news" that FOSS is
dangerous to use in the enterprise? More SCO, anyone?

So, could OASIS or somebody please explain to us again why it's acceptable
for standards policies to permit patents? How is that working out, guys?
The very thorough David Berlind provides some background on the OASIS
controversy and the discussion on all this.
[/quote]

Well, it will be interesting to see where all of this heads. If they go
after Sun and OASIS and ignore Microsoft, it will cause another SCO stir.
This is particularly interesting if things turn out that way, since the
company with the patent portfolio has historically been a partner of
Microsoft:

[quote]
About Market Central

Headquartered in Atlanta, Market Central, Inc. is a full service Customer
Relationship Management (CRM) provider. The Company has developed a
next-generation suite of CRM solutions that include proprietary, patented
software for data capture, cleansing, mining, integration, search, and
intelligent document recognition. The Company is also a Microsoft
development partner for MS CRM solutions. Market Central provides other
CRM services, such as campaign management, and operates a 900-seat contact
center to support the software line of business and provide outsourced
contact center services to select clients as part of their overall CRM
effort.
[/quote]

According to:

http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/3770791/Common_Guidelines_01_March_07.pdf

or http://tinyurl.com/242vj9

[quote]
3 Patent disclosure

As mandated by the Patent Policy in its paragraph 1, any party
participating in the work of the Organizations should, from the outset,
draw their attention to any known patent or to any known pending patent
application, either their own or of other organizations.

In this context, the words “from the outset” imply that such
information should be disclosed as early as possible during the
development of the Recommendation | Deliverable. This might not be
possible when the first draft text appears since at this time, the text
might be still too vague or subject to subsequent major modifications.
Moreover, that information should be provided in good faith and on a best
effort basis, but there is no requirement for patent searches.
[/quote]

and

[quote]
Whether the identification of the Patent took place before or after the
approval of the Recommendation | Deliverable, if the Patent Holder is
unwilling to license under paragraph 2.1 or 2.2 of the Patent Policy, the
Organizations will promptly advise the Technical Bodies responsible for
the affected Recommendation | Deliverable so that appropriate action can
be taken. Such action will include, but may not be limited to, a review of
the Recommendation | Deliverable or its draft in order to remove the
potential conflict or to further examine and clarify the technical
considerations causing the conflict.
[/quote]

Blogger in Roy's link indicated that in accordance with the ISO process,
committee members were informed of a potential conflict that could affect
the outcome of the current draft ISO approval process. This is the start
of what is described in the first quote above.

Per the latter quote, if there appears to be a valid claim, then the
corrective action is to remove the potential conflict and press on. This
is an elementary position of Gnu and FOSS, is it not?

Playing the "Devil's advocate", if it further delays OOXML approval
in ISO, perhaps it is an indication that Microsoft may be in store for a
dose of its own medicine?

--
HPT

Hadron

unread,
Jan 13, 2008, 10:23:00 PM1/13/08
to
High Plains Thumper <highplai...@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Tim Smith wrote:
>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>
>>> ISO warned about possible patent violations of DIS29500 (aka OOXML)
>>>
>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>> | I have just send the following email to ISO members (you can find
>>> | some of their email addresses on the INCTIS website) to warn them
>>> | about the possible patent ambush...
>>> `----
>>>
>>> http://jeremywang67.blogspot.com/2008/01/iso-warned-about-possible-patent.html
>>
>> It's a rather broad patent covering most or all XML. That means it
>> covers ODF just as much as it covers OOXML, so why do you try to make it
>> sound like this is just an OOXML problem?
>
> Oh, I see, it is a case of reading into a quote, is it not? Care to
> discuss the article points or give your counterpoints instead of your
> pointless accusations, hmmm, Timmy?
>
> Here is what PJ has to say of this new patent troll effort:

What PJ has to say? What do YOU have to say? Nothing as usual eh?

High Plains Thumper

unread,
Jan 13, 2008, 10:52:53 PM1/13/08
to
Hadron wrote:

> High Plains Thumper writes:
>> Tim Smith wrote:
>>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>>
>>>> ISO warned about possible patent violations of DIS29500 (aka OOXML)
>>>>
>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>> | I have just send the following email to ISO members (you can find
>>>> | some of their email addresses on the INCTIS website) to warn them
>>>> | about the possible patent ambush...
>>>> `----
>>>>
>>>> http://jeremywang67.blogspot.com/2008/01/iso-warned-about-possible-patent.html
>>>
>>> It's a rather broad patent covering most or all XML. That means it
>>> covers ODF just as much as it covers OOXML, so why do you try to make
>>> it sound like this is just an OOXML problem?
>>
>> Oh, I see, it is a case of reading into a quote, is it not? Care to
>> discuss the article points or give your counterpoints instead of your
>> pointless accusations, hmmm, Timmy?
>>
>> Here is what PJ has to say of this new patent troll effort:
>>
>> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20051021183953795
>>
>> [quote]
>> Scientigo says it met with 47 companies in the last few months,

<SNIP>

>> [/quote]
>>
>> Well, it will be interesting to see where all of this heads. If they
>> go after Sun and OASIS and ignore Microsoft, it will cause another SCO
>> stir. This is particularly interesting if things turn out that way,
>> since the company with the patent portfolio has historically been a
>> partner of Microsoft:
>>
>> [quote]
>> About Market Central

<SNIP>

<SNIP>

>> [/quote]
>>
>> Blogger in Roy's link indicated that in accordance with the ISO
>> process, committee members were informed of a potential conflict that
>> could affect the outcome of the current draft ISO approval process.
>> This is the start of what is described in the first quote above.
>>
>> Per the latter quote, if there appears to be a valid claim, then the
>> corrective action is to remove the potential conflict and press on.
>> This is an elementary position of Gnu and FOSS, is it not?
>>
>> Playing the "Devil's advocate", if it further delays OOXML approval in
>> ISO, perhaps it is an indication that Microsoft may be in store for a
>> dose of its own medicine?
>

> What PJ has to say? What do YOU have to say? Nothing as usual eh?

Hadron gobshite as usual, eh?

I see Hadron has a reading comprehension problem and comes readily to the
defence of other trolls here.

--
HPT

Tim Smith

unread,
Jan 14, 2008, 12:50:23 AM1/14/08
to
In article <pan.2008.01.14....@invalid.invalid>,
High Plains Thumper <highplai...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[bunch of incoherent rambling deleted]

Do you want to actually try to address the point?

--
--Tim Smith

High Plains Thumper

unread,
Jan 14, 2008, 1:28:04 AM1/14/08
to
Tim Smith wrote:

> High Plains Thumper wrote:
>> Tim Smith wrote:
>>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://jeremywang67.blogspot.com/2008/01/iso-warned-about-possible-patent.html
>>>
>>> It's a rather broad patent covering most or all XML. That means it
>>> covers ODF just as much as it covers OOXML, so why do you try to make
>>> it sound like this is just an OOXML problem?
>>
>> Oh, I see, it is a case of reading into a quote, is it not? Care to
>> discuss the article points or give your counterpoints instead of your
>> pointless accusations, hmmm, Timmy?
>>
>> Here is what PJ has to say of this new patent troll effort:
>>
>> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20051021183953795

<SNIP>

>> [quote] Remember Michael Anderer indicating that Microsoft's strategy
>> would be to make sure FOSS is hit with one patent lawsuit after another
>> until it lies down and dies? Remember Andrew Orlowski writing about
>> Ballmer's speech in Asia, which he later tried to clarify, that
>> Microsoft's weapon of choice is not patent infringement lawsuits, but
>> rather the *threat* of them, or to put it plainly, FUD? That success
>> for Microsoft would be in the *bringing* of lawsuits (or having someone
>> bring them), one after another, whereby the ultimate outcome doesn't
>> matter so much as being able to tie up everyone in costly litigation,
>> so it can herald the "news" that FOSS is dangerous to use in the

>> enterprise? More SCO, anyone? <SNIP> [/quote]

> [bunch of incoherent rambling deleted]
>
> Do you want to actually try to address the point?

I did, but apparently you have a reading comprehension problem. You want
to advocate a personal agenda of attacking advocates instead of addressing
points being brought up. Such gobshite is not worth my responding to.

--
HPT

Moshe Goldfarb

unread,
Jan 14, 2008, 3:39:05 AM1/14/08
to
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 23:28:04 -0700, High Plains Thumper wrote:


> I did, but apparently you have a reading comprehension problem. You want
> to advocate a personal agenda of attacking advocates instead of addressing
> points being brought up. Such gobshite is not worth my responding to.

You haven't addressed the point at all.

Roy Schestowitz

unread,
Jan 14, 2008, 3:36:39 AM1/14/08
to
____/ High Plains Thumper on Monday 14 January 2008 06:28 : \____

He's trying to hide evidence. Quick, Tim. Allchin said that mail needs to be
deleted every 6 months (at least) in order to hide criminal evidence.

Google thrives in knowledge, making people educated.

Microsoft thrives in eliminating knowledge, ensuring people remain naive enough
not to understand the Microsoft pyramid scheme.

--
~~ Best of wishes

Roy S. Schestowitz | Windows is 'intuitive': go to 'Start' to finish
session
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU is Not UNIX | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
http://iuron.com - proposing a non-profit search engine

Peter Köhlmann

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Jan 14, 2008, 3:44:27 AM1/14/08
to
Moshe Goldfarb wrote:

He *made* the points, flatfish

Tim Hadron Funkenbusch Smith simply snipped them, as he had no answer.
Snot taught him well
--
Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product.

Moshe Goldfarb

unread,
Jan 14, 2008, 3:51:09 AM1/14/08
to
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 08:36:39 +0000, Roy Schestowitz wrote:


> He's trying to hide evidence. Quick, Tim. Allchin said that mail needs to be
> deleted every 6 months (at least) in order to hide criminal evidence.

So says a person who is honored to have attracted the attention of Rex
Ballard, a cross dressing nutter and freak who believes he invented Java,
amongst other things.

Hadron

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Jan 14, 2008, 8:07:03 AM1/14/08
to
Tim Smith <reply_i...@mouse-potato.com> writes:

Since when did he ever? All he does is repost other people's work. Oh,
and nymshift.

Hadron

unread,
Jan 14, 2008, 8:07:53 AM1/14/08
to
High Plains Thumper <highplai...@invalid.invalid> writes:

> Tim Smith wrote:
>>
>> Do you want to actually try to address the point?
>
> I did, but apparently you have a reading comprehension problem. You want
> to advocate a personal agenda of attacking advocates instead of addressing
> points being brought up. Such gobshite is not worth my responding to.

Would you like to point out where YOU addressed anything?

William Poaster

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Jan 14, 2008, 8:10:56 AM1/14/08
to
High Plains Thumper wrote:

A well known fact, & seen in other groups too.

> and comes readily to the defence of other trolls here.

He associates with scum. Trolls are the lowest form of life on Usenet, &
Quack has admitted he is a troll.

--
This message was sent from a
computer which is guaranteed
100% free of the M$ Windoze virus.
-- PCLinuxOS 2007 --

Peter Köhlmann

unread,
Jan 14, 2008, 8:27:16 AM1/14/08
to
Hadron wrote:

That part Tim Hadron Funkenbusch Smith snipped might be a good starting
ground
--
I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

Mark Kent

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 3:29:23 AM1/16/08
to
Roy Schestowitz <newsg...@schestowitz.com> espoused:
>>>> In this context, the words ?from the outset? imply that such

The internet is fantastic for this, it's very very hard for Microsoft
and its shilcosystem to lie about their intentions without the evidence
of their lies being presented in short order. Of course Timmy deletes
it, what else can he do? He's been proven to be 100% in the wrong.

It must be tough, playing for the losing team.

--
| Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
| Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
| Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
| My (new) blog: http://www.thereisnomagic.org |

Roy Schestowitz

unread,
Jan 16, 2008, 3:54:53 AM1/16/08
to
____/ Mark Kent on Wednesday 16 January 2008 08:29 : \____

Loss or not loss, what bothers the mind much more is that you have criminal
activity to consider it. Microsoft need not to lose. It needs to be put in
prison given some of the things we're witnessing. Just as an example, why is
Robert Bach still out there? He broke the law and he wasn't even investigated.
The US juridical system is becoming to resemble mafia state where the 'strong'
people are above the law and poor grandmothers are being bullied by the RIAA
for downloading a song!

--
~~ Best of wishes

In a perfect world, all high-velocity impacts make fine orange juice

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