[News] Microsoft/Novell Clone-ware the Wrong Route

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Roy Schestowitz

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Oct 31, 2007, 7:43:24 PM10/31/07
to
Squandering one of the industry's best open source talents

,----[ Quote ]
| You, personally, would convince more by going back to the innovation in GNOME
| that originally made you one of the most interesting developers on the
| planet. I want the old Miguel (and Nat - where has Nat Friedman been?) back,
| the one who demo'd Nat's Dashboard with Nat at OSCON. The one who led and
| pushed GNOME forward for so many years.
|
| The one who still has the potential to turn the industry on its head. But not
| by being Microsoft's best friend. Nor by being its acrid enemy.
|
| Rather, Miguel de Icaza can turn the industry on its head by putting his
| knowledge of interoperability and open source to work on developing the
| next-generation desktop (and not by recreating the "best" of Microsoft on
| Linux). It's not worth much to you, Miguel, but I think highly of your
| talents. That's why I'd like to ask you to get back to innovation, not the
| somewhat futile (meaning, few to no real customers will use it) Microsoft
| clone-ware you've been engaged in.
`----

http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13505_1-9808317-16.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=TheOpenRoad


Related:

OpenSolaris, Gobuntu, and be careful who you kiss

,----[ Quote ]
| I read the agreement between Xandros and Microsoft, and one of the excluded
| products was Mono, so Microsoft promises to not sue Xandros over their
| distribution but excluding Mono and a few other products, i.e. they reserve
| the right to sue over Mono. I wonder if this is an interesting preview of on
| what basis they want to fight the free world.
|
| Interestingly, the Novell deal seems to be different, Mono is not excluded
| from the Novell deal. So Microsoft seems to be promising not to sue Novell
| over Mono, but keeps the option open for Xandros. Weird but true.
`----

http://commandline.org.uk/2007/be-careful-who-you-kiss/


Miguel, Mono and Microsoft

,----[ Quote ]
| is Mono's role in the deal that of a hook to make customers write
| .NET applications because they can be run on Linux - only to find
| later on that they are armless or legless because of a change in
| the .NETspecifications, a change which Microsoft decides not to
| make public?
|
| [...]
|
| And here we have an individual who decides to replicate one of
| the proprietary company's development environments - for reasons
| best known to him alone - and keeps telling people that the reason
| he's doing it is so that he can pull people over from the
| proprietary company's side to his side!!!
`----

http://www.itwire.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11081&Itemid=1091

Jeffrey Stedfast

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Nov 5, 2007, 9:58:52 AM11/5/07
to Roy Schestowitz
Roy Schestowitz wrote:
> Squandering one of the industry's best open source talents
>
> ,----[ Quote ]
> | You, personally, would convince more by going back to the innovation in GNOME
> | that originally made you one of the most interesting developers on the
> | planet. I want the old Miguel (and Nat - where has Nat Friedman been?) back,
> | the one who demo'd Nat's Dashboard with Nat at OSCON. The one who led and
> | pushed GNOME forward for so many years.
> |
> | The one who still has the potential to turn the industry on its head. But not
> | by being Microsoft's best friend. Nor by being its acrid enemy.
> |
> | Rather, Miguel de Icaza can turn the industry on its head by putting his
> | knowledge of interoperability and open source to work on developing the
> | next-generation desktop (and not by recreating the "best" of Microsoft on
> | Linux). It's not worth much to you, Miguel, but I think highly of your
> | talents. That's why I'd like to ask you to get back to innovation, not the
> | somewhat futile (meaning, few to no real customers will use it) Microsoft
> | clone-ware you've been engaged in.
> `----
>
> http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13505_1-9808317-16.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=TheOpenRoad

Interestingly enough, Matt Asay has retracted his article saying he was
wrong.

http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13505_1-9809851-16.html

I'm ashamed to be a part of a community where FUD slinging is acceptable
(and in many cases, cheered).

It's one thing to cheer for Free Software, it's another to FUD the
competition/people who do not agree with you - even if they resort to
mud slinging first, we mustn't ever stoop to that level - the people of
the world are largely intelligent and will be able to see through the lies.

We, the Free Software community, should present ourselves as moral and
fair, not vengeful and deceitful.

I believe that most of the Free Software community truly is moral and
fair (otherwise I'd want no part in it anymore), but unfortunately it is
the vocal minority that is ruining the Free Software community's
reputation for all of us.

Thank you,

Jeff (a Free Software developer since 1997)

DFS

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Nov 5, 2007, 10:20:03 AM11/5/07
to
Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:

> I'm ashamed to be a part of a community where FUD slinging is
> acceptable (and in many cases, cheered).

You'll never make it out of cola alive.


> It's one thing to cheer for Free Software, it's another to FUD the
> competition/people who do not agree with you - even if they resort to
> mud slinging first, we mustn't ever stoop to that level - the people
> of the world are largely intelligent and will be able to see through
> the lies.

Lying "advocates" such as those found on comp.os.linux.advocacy don't care
that their lies are ridiculous and transparent. They just spew them and
ignore the truth and spew them some more.

> We, the Free Software community, should present ourselves as moral and
> fair, not vengeful and deceitful.

In other words the Free Software community should hide half its true nature
(free software adherents aren't generally deceitful that I've seen, but
they're *extremely* nasty and vengeful little beasts).


> I believe that most of the Free Software community truly is moral and
> fair (otherwise I'd want no part in it anymore), but unfortunately it
> is the vocal minority that is ruining the Free Software community's
> reputation for all of us.

You hear that Roy [Homer] Kent Kohlmann 7 Rasker Ballard Gidget? He's
talking to and about your kind.

> Thank you,
>
> Jeff (a Free Software developer since 1997)

Nice sentiments, but unrealistic I'm afraid.

Linonut

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Nov 5, 2007, 11:54:45 AM11/5/07
to
After takin' a swig o' grog, Jeffrey Stedfast belched out this bit o' wisdom:

> Interestingly enough, Matt Asay has retracted his article saying he was
> wrong.
>
> http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13505_1-9809851-16.html

A few days ago I crossed the line between corporate and personal. I
criticized Miguel de Icaza, a developer for whom I have significant
professional respect. I suggested that he use his considerable
talents on other projects with (in my estimation) more market impact.

That's not my place. Miguel writes code that he loves, and has the
added bonus of getting paid to do so. I apologize. Sincerely.

> I'm ashamed to be a part of a community where FUD slinging is acceptable
> (and in many cases, cheered).

Unfortunately, it seems that all communities eventually succumb to that
temptation.

> I believe that most of the Free Software community truly is moral and
> fair (otherwise I'd want no part in it anymore), but unfortunately it is
> the vocal minority that is ruining the Free Software community's
> reputation for all of us.

Not so sure about that. People seem to operate via pre-conceived
notions rather than by introspection and intelligence.

--
Tux rox!

[H]omer

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Nov 5, 2007, 1:34:11 PM11/5/07
to
Verily I say unto thee, that Jeffrey Stedfast spake thusly:

> Interestingly enough, Matt Asay has retracted his article saying he
> was wrong.
>
> http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13505_1-9809851-16.html

That is not a "retraction", it's a *clarification* that much of the
article was his /opinion/ rather than a report. Specifically he regrets
that he "crossed the line between corporate and personal", and states
emphatically that it is *not* "because anyone asked [him] to (Neither
CNET nor Novell suggested a retraction)".

IOW his /opinion/ has *not* changed, he merely regrets /voicing/ that
opinion publicly on CNet.

> I'm ashamed to be a part of a community

That much is transparently obvious.

But then you don't need to concern yourself with trivial things like the
Free Software community, Jeff, when you can collect a nice fat pay
cheque at the end of the month, for "contributing" so much Microsoft IP
into the Free Software tree.

How is Ballmer anyway? Has his Golf handicap improved any?

> Jeff (a Free Software developer since 1997)

Yes, I know you are, "Jeff". Or should I say fejj[at]novell.com,
fejj[at]gnome.org, fejj[at]stampede.org, fejj[at]ximian.com?

http://jeffreystedfast.blogspot.com/2007/11/re-squandering-one-of-industrys-best.html

Attended any MS Developer conferences with your pal Miguel recently?

How is that whole MS encumbered "Mono" thing going, out of interest?

"Free" software, indeed. LOL!

Oh BTW, I just had the rather unpleasant surprise of discovering that
apparently Yelp is now dependant on libbeagle, you know - as in Beagle,
as in "Mono". But I'm sure it's nothing to worry about, after all - the
core of Gnome will /never/ be dependant on Mono. Right Jeff?

http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2007-June/msg00428.html

It seems like it's getting harder and harder to avoid Microsoft IP,
thanks to people like you and de Icaza. Thankfully there are those who
are prepared to do the work to undo the damage you're doing.

And even if Gnome /does/ become infested with Mono, that's no big deal,
right? After all, Mono /is/ "Free Software", isn't it? And it has
/nothing/ whatever to do with Microsoft, and I'm sure Microsoft /will/
keep their non-legally binding "Reasonable And Non-Discriminatory"
"promise", right Jeff. Microsoft would /never/ dream of using their IP
claims to undermine Free Software, now would they? Nor would they ever
make exclusionary deals to "protect" /one/ GNU/Linux vendor from .NET
patent litigation, but not others ... right?

Oh wait...

So once you've finished poisoning the Free Software tree with encumbered
Microsoft technology, just make sure to send me the invoice, so I know
who to write the cheque out to. I wouldn't want to be caught running an
"illegal" GNU/Linux distribution without paying Microsoft the correct
"protection" fee, now would I?

--
K.
http://slated.org

.----
| "[Microsoft] are willing to lose money for years and years just to
| make sure that you don't make any money, either." - Bob Cringely.
| - http://blog.businessofsoftware.org/2007/07/cringely-the-un.html
`----

Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.22.1-41.fc7
18:32:10 up 88 days, 18:27, 3 users, load average: 0.02, 0.33, 0.32

Jeffrey Stedfast

unread,
Nov 5, 2007, 6:03:00 PM11/5/07
to
DFS wrote:
> Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:
>
>> I'm ashamed to be a part of a community where FUD slinging is
>> acceptable (and in many cases, cheered).
>
> You'll never make it out of cola alive.

haha, we'll see - I don't plan on sticking around long ;-)

>
>
>> It's one thing to cheer for Free Software, it's another to FUD the
>> competition/people who do not agree with you - even if they resort to
>> mud slinging first, we mustn't ever stoop to that level - the people
>> of the world are largely intelligent and will be able to see through
>> the lies.
>
> Lying "advocates" such as those found on comp.os.linux.advocacy don't care
> that their lies are ridiculous and transparent. They just spew them and
> ignore the truth and spew them some more.
>

That is truly unfortunate.

I'm afraid that potential users and companies out there that might
otherwise be interested in Linux/Free Software might get frightened off
by such deceitful "spew".

>
>
>> We, the Free Software community, should present ourselves as moral and
>> fair, not vengeful and deceitful.
>
> In other words the Free Software community should hide half its true nature
> (free software adherents aren't generally deceitful that I've seen, but
> they're *extremely* nasty and vengeful little beasts).
>

I think that's a bit unfair. I would say that at least 95+% of the Free
Software supporters that I have met personally at conferences have been
genuinely good people and did not seem to be at all vengeful.

While it is certainly possible that I've only been exposed to a minority
group, I'd like to think that that is not the case.

The actions of the vocal minority flinging mud at individuals and
companies is only detrimental to the success of Linux/FOSS imho.

>
>
>
>> I believe that most of the Free Software community truly is moral and
>> fair (otherwise I'd want no part in it anymore), but unfortunately it
>> is the vocal minority that is ruining the Free Software community's
>> reputation for all of us.
>
> You hear that Roy [Homer] Kent Kohlmann 7 Rasker Ballard Gidget? He's
> talking to and about your kind.
>
>
>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Jeff (a Free Software developer since 1997)
>
> Nice sentiments, but unrealistic I'm afraid.
>
>
>

Unfortunately, it would appear that you may be correct at least so far
as c.o.l.a is concerned.

Jeff

Jeffrey Stedfast

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Nov 5, 2007, 6:25:22 PM11/5/07
to
Keith G. Robertson-Turner wrote:
> Verily I say unto thee, that Jeffrey Stedfast spake thusly:
>
>> Interestingly enough, Matt Asay has retracted his article saying he
>> was wrong.
>>
>> http://blogs.cnet.com/8301-13505_1-9809851-16.html
>
> That is not a "retraction", it's a *clarification* that much of the
> article was his /opinion/ rather than a report.

No, it was a retraction.

re·tract (r-trkt)
v. re·tract·ed, re·tract·ing, re·tracts
v.tr.
1. To take back; disavow: refused to retract the statement.
2. To draw back or in: a plane retracting its landing gear. See Synonyms
at recede1.

v.intr.
1. To take something back or disavow it.
2. To draw back.

I'm writing this not because anyone asked me to (Neither CNET
nor Novell suggested a retraction). [...] I just didn't have a
good way to take it back. (CNET doesn't allow deletion of posts.
The tool simply doesn't support this feature.)

Using Matt Asay's own words, it is a retraction of his earlier post.

> Specifically he regrets
> that he "crossed the line between corporate and personal", and states
> emphatically that it is *not* "because anyone asked [him] to (Neither
> CNET nor Novell suggested a retraction)".

This much we agree on.

>
> IOW his /opinion/ has *not* changed, he merely regrets /voicing/ that
> opinion publicly on CNet.

And why do you suppose that is? ;-)

Probably because he realized that his opinion was misinformed.

[slew of personal insults snipped]

> Oh BTW, I just had the rather unpleasant surprise of discovering that
> apparently Yelp is now dependant on libbeagle, you know - as in Beagle,
> as in "Mono". But I'm sure it's nothing to worry about, after all - the
> core of Gnome will /never/ be dependant on Mono. Right Jeff?
>
> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2007-June/msg00428.html

I'm not sure what this has to do with me, but a quick google of the
problem reveals that someone not affiliated with myself nor Novell added
the libbeagle dependency to Yelp.

You would have realized this, too, had you spent 30 seconds doing a
little fact-checking. Apparently, however, this is not one of your
fortes - you seem to find knee-jerk reactions and mud slinging more to
taste.

[another slew of personal insults snipped]

I'll tell you what, when you are able and willing to have a mature and
intelligent discussion, you may reach me at fejj [at] novell.com

For what it's worth, this is exactly the kind of diatribe that destroys
the reputation of the Linux/FOSS community - I hope you are proud of
yourself.

I bid thee well,

Jeff

[H]omer

unread,
Nov 6, 2007, 12:03:07 AM11/6/07
to
Verily I say unto thee, that Jeffrey Stedfast spake thusly:

[snip dictionary quote]

I really don't think I need to take English lessons from a Yank.

If the /article/ had been "retracted", then it wouldn't be there any
more (it is). If Asay wished to retract his /opinion/ then he'd make it
clear that his opinion had changed (he doesn't). What /is/ clear from
the article is that he now feels that it was "not [his] place" to pass
judgement on de Icaza, but at no point does he retract his opinion.

This is merely an apology for making his opinion public. Presumably he
feels that, in retrospect, he should have exercised more diplomacy.

But by all means call it a "retraction" if it'll make you sleep easier.

>> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2007-June/msg00428.html
>>
> I'm not sure what this has to do with me

Just FYI, that's all. Since you seem to be one of those dedicated to
spreading the infection of Mono, I thought you'd be interested to know
that it is slowly becoming inextricable from Gnome. I assume from your
indifferent response that you're not denying that fact then?

> but a quick google of the problem reveals that someone not affiliated
> with myself nor Novell added the libbeagle dependency to Yelp.

Well naturally, since Yelp is a *Gnome* project. The fact is that
libbeagle is now a Yelp dependency, regardless of who committed the crime.

> You would have realized this, too, had you spent 30 seconds doing a
> little fact-checking.

A little more "fact-checking" reveals that this problem (that you
apparently know nothing about) seems to be affecting a number of other
distros too:

OpenSUSE:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-commit/2007-09/msg00634.html

Ubuntu:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+bug/114957/comments/7

Fedora 7 (confirmed infection):
http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/rpminfo?rpmID=262838

Madriva (this guy is *really* not happy about libbeagle infecting his
system):
http://www.beranger.org/index.php?page=diary&2007/09/06/07/24/16-2-minutes-about-copernic

Apparently this infection has been spreading for a while, starting as
far back as April 2006:
http://www.lyricswithoutmelody.org/beagle/?p=12

No, actually *January* 2006:
http://www.lyricswithoutmelody.org/beagle/?p=11

I'm sure it's all just coincidental though.

Once again, let me just extend my warm thanks, for your participation in
poisoning the Free Software tree with Microsoft IP.

--
K.
http://slated.org

.----
| "OOXML is a superb standard"
| - GNU/Linux traitor, Miguel de Icaza.
`----

Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.22.1-41.fc7

05:00:12 up 89 days, 4:55, 3 users, load average: 0.08, 0.02, 0.01

Roy Schestowitz

unread,
Nov 6, 2007, 12:34:50 AM11/6/07
to
____/ [H]omer on Tuesday 06 November 2007 05:03 : \____

I don't want to write a long message about it and I haven't read the whole
thread, but quick two points I wish to make are:

1) The "retraction" term was used by de Icaza before. It seems like a
systematic method that reminds me Apple's and Microsoft's censorship.

2) I have caught Novell employees, including de Icaza, bending and twisting
bloggers' arms in the past, especially after they had said bad things about
Novell. In some cases, such bloggers were attacked by anonymous commenters. In
other cases, they do it by E-mail. I bet you a million bucks de Icaza still
sends E-mails to people. He asking for "retraction".

I have a lot more to say, but I know what I know about Mono and I'd rather than
just it with hyperlinks. Awareness about these issues must be raised before
it's /far/ too late.

For the record, I was a happy GNOME user for years. I haven't anything against
GNOME, but the 'poisonware' it gets through the Novell 'food funnel' is more
than a timebomb.

--
~~ Best of wishes

Roy S. Schestowitz | X-No-Archive: No. Stand behind what you say
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Mem: 515500k total, 443408k used, 72092k free, 1524k buffers
http://iuron.com - next generation of search paradigms

Jeffrey Stedfast

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Nov 6, 2007, 8:19:26 AM11/6/07
to
Keith G. Robertson-Turner wrote:
> Verily I say unto thee, that Jeffrey Stedfast spake thusly:
[snip]

>>> http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-test-list/2007-June/msg00428.html
>>>
>> I'm not sure what this has to do with me
>
> Just FYI, that's all. Since you seem to be one of those dedicated to
> spreading the infection of Mono, I thought you'd be interested to know
> that it is slowly becoming inextricable from Gnome. I assume from your
> indifferent response that you're not denying that fact then?

I wouldn't know. I've only worked on a handful of GNOME applications and
none of them depend on Mono and as far as I'm aware, there is no push to
make GNOME depend on Mono - at least not by Novell or myself.

I'm personally not interested in pushing Mono - use it if you like,
don't if you don't. It really makes no difference to me.

>
>> but a quick google of the problem reveals that someone not affiliated
>> with myself nor Novell added the libbeagle dependency to Yelp.
>
> Well naturally, since Yelp is a *Gnome* project. The fact is that
> libbeagle is now a Yelp dependency, regardless of who committed the crime.

Then why the personal attacks toward me? Were you just trying to show me
how abusive and full of hate Linux Advocates such as yourself are?

Does that serve your purpose well, Keith G. Robertson-Turner? Does it
help convince people to switch to Linux, where they are likely to be
berated for having slight differences in opinion with you?

Somehow I doubt it.

>
>> You would have realized this, too, had you spent 30 seconds doing a
>> little fact-checking.
>
> A little more "fact-checking" reveals that this problem (that you
> apparently know nothing about) seems to be affecting a number of other
> distros too:
>
> OpenSUSE:
> http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-commit/2007-09/msg00634.html
>
> Ubuntu:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio/+bug/114957/comments/7
>
> Fedora 7 (confirmed infection):
> http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/rpminfo?rpmID=262838
>
> Madriva (this guy is *really* not happy about libbeagle infecting his
> system):
> http://www.beranger.org/index.php?page=diary&2007/09/06/07/24/16-2-minutes-about-copernic
>
> Apparently this infection has been spreading for a while, starting as
> far back as April 2006:
> http://www.lyricswithoutmelody.org/beagle/?p=12
>
> No, actually *January* 2006:
> http://www.lyricswithoutmelody.org/beagle/?p=11
>
> I'm sure it's all just coincidental though.

What's this got to do with anything?

Is your point that a handful of people are upset that they have Mono on
their systems? What about the rest of the users who seemingly either
don't mind or actually /want/ Mono?

There are a lot of users/developers out there that actually want to use
Mono and applications depending on Mono, one need look no further than
the Mono mailing lists or the success stories listed on
http://www.mono-project.org to see that.

For those that don't want Mono, I would agree, it should be possible for
them to not install Mono, but other than the OpenSuSE distro, Novell
does not control any of these distros nor does it control the direction
of GNOME (afaik, Novell currently holds 0 positions in the GNOME
Foundation board).

>
> Once again, let me just extend my warm thanks, for your participation in
> poisoning the Free Software tree with Microsoft IP.
>

This is a pretty serious accusation... one which cannot be taken
lightly, so I take it you must have done the necessary research to
discover what Microsoft IP I've personally injected into Free Software
or you wouldn't be making such outlandish claims.

Care to elaborate a little? Would this be Copyright IP? Or Patent IP?
Would you also care to tell me what code and/or patents I've infringed?

Inquiring minds want to know...

Listing the specific IP that I (or even Novell) have infringed would go
a long way toward reaching your personal goal of discrediting me/Novell
as well as saving the Free Software community from IP lawsuits, so you
really have no excuse for not revealing this information... unless of
course, you are making unsubstantiated claims (which, I might add, is
considered libel).

chrisv

unread,
Nov 6, 2007, 8:39:47 AM11/6/07
to
Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:

>> Lying "advocates" such as those found on comp.os.linux.advocacy don't care
>> that their lies are ridiculous and transparent. They just spew them and
>> ignore the truth and spew them some more.
>
>That is truly unfortunate.

It's a lie.

It appears that you don't realize that the "DFS" twit that you are
responding-to is about as worthless a lying POS as you can find
trolling a newsgroup. You'd be well-advised to take nothing he writes
as the truth. Indeed, the best thing is to simply ignore him.

Jeffrey Stedfast

unread,
Nov 6, 2007, 9:56:08 AM11/6/07
to

It seems to me that DFS is simply frustrated by the hypocrisy and
mud-slinging thrown around by self-proclaimed "Linux Advocates". If I
were to hazard a guess, it would be that DFS feels that the Linux/FOSS
community should hold itself to the same high moral standards that the
Linux/FOSS community feels the proprietary software industry should be
held to.

For example, whenever a proprietary software company slings mud at
Linux/FOSS, "Linux Advocates" object and point out how unethical the
flinger is. While there is nothing wrong with defending Linux/FOSS, the
problem is that the Linux/FOSS advocates like to see themselves as
morally superior and /yet/, they turn around and throw mud right back.
This is hypocritical. One need look no farther than this forum or
Slashdot to see examples of this type of "advocacy".

Now, this obviously does not apply to /all/ Linux supporters, but there
do seem to be quite a few vocally abusive Linux supporters that this
applies to, and unfortunately they are the loud ones.

My feeling is that if they took a step back and saw how they made the
Linux/FOSS community look through the eyes of potential converts, they
would realize that they are only hurting the Linux/FOSS reputation and
are not convincing anyone to make the jump to Linux/FOSS.

How many times have you heard people say that Linux/FOSS advocates seem
like hostile zealots by either potential converts or the proprietary
software industry (likely as part of a FUD campaign)? Does that sound
like a warm and fuzzy description of the Linux/FOSS community?

No, it does not.

My issue is that these abusive advocates are doing more harm than good.

My hope is that said advocates simply do not realize what they are doing
and that once they see the light, they will change their ways and
advocate Linux/FOSS in constructive ways. For example, Roy Schestowitz
has recently posted some constructive articles about successes in Linux.
This is the type of advocacy that helps Linux. On the other hand, making
unsubstantiated claims of IP infringement only serves to keep people
away from Linux because they fear they cannot trust it - this is playing
right into Microsoft's hands.


I'm probably naive in thinking that all people are inherently good, but
I'd argue that it doesn't hurt to try to show people the err of their
ways. If I'm successful, then all the better for Linux/FOSS advocacy. If
I fail, then Linux/FOSS advocacy stays the same.


Thank you,

Jeff

William Poaster

unread,
Nov 6, 2007, 10:24:43 AM11/6/07
to
Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:

> chrisv wrote:
>> Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:
>>
>>>> Lying "advocates" such as those found on comp.os.linux.advocacy don't
>>>> care
>>>> that their lies are ridiculous and transparent. They just spew them
>>>> and ignore the truth and spew them some more.
>>> That is truly unfortunate.
>>
>> It's a lie.
>>
>> It appears that you don't realize that the "DFS" twit that you are
>> responding-to is about as worthless a lying POS as you can find
>> trolling a newsgroup. You'd be well-advised to take nothing he writes
>> as the truth. Indeed, the best thing is to simply ignore him.
>>
>
> It seems to me that DFS is simply frustrated by the hypocrisy and
> mud-slinging thrown around by self-proclaimed "Linux Advocates". If I
> were to hazard a guess, it would be that DFS feels that the Linux/FOSS
> community should hold itself to the same high moral standards that the
> Linux/FOSS community feels the proprietary software industry should be
> held to.

Nope, he *is* a troll & a devout M$ fanboi. He's also a racist & liar.

See http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/2007/01/dfs-troll.html


<snip>

--
Operating systems: FreeBSD 6.2 AMD64, PC-BSD 1.4,
Testing: FreeBSD 7.0-BETA1.5
Linux systems: Debian 4.0, PCLinuxOS 2007,
Kubuntu 7.10 "Gutsy" AMD64

chrisv

unread,
Nov 6, 2007, 11:07:43 AM11/6/07
to
Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:

>> It appears that you don't realize that the "DFS" twit that you are
>> responding-to is about as worthless a lying POS as you can find
>> trolling a newsgroup. You'd be well-advised to take nothing he writes
>> as the truth. Indeed, the best thing is to simply ignore him.
>
>It seems to me that DFS is simply frustrated by the hypocrisy and
>mud-slinging thrown around by self-proclaimed "Linux Advocates"

It seems to me that you're a worthless troll yourself.

*plonk*

The Ghost In The Machine

unread,
Nov 6, 2007, 11:43:13 AM11/6/07
to
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Jeffrey Stedfast
<sted...@comcast.net>
wrote
on Tue, 06 Nov 2007 09:56:08 -0500
<-6CdnSssPrQVHa3a...@comcast.com>:

> chrisv wrote:
>> Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:
>>
>>>> Lying "advocates" such as those found on comp.os.linux.advocacy don't care
>>>> that their lies are ridiculous and transparent. They just spew them and
>>>> ignore the truth and spew them some more.
>>> That is truly unfortunate.
>>
>> It's a lie.
>>
>> It appears that you don't realize that the "DFS" twit that you are
>> responding-to is about as worthless a lying POS as you can find
>> trolling a newsgroup. You'd be well-advised to take nothing he writes
>> as the truth. Indeed, the best thing is to simply ignore him.
>>
>
> It seems to me that DFS is simply frustrated by the hypocrisy and
> mud-slinging thrown around by self-proclaimed "Linux Advocates". If I
> were to hazard a guess, it would be that DFS feels that the Linux/FOSS
> community should hold itself to the same high moral standards that the
> Linux/FOSS community feels the proprietary software industry should be
> held to.

Higher, in fact.

>
> For example, whenever a proprietary software company slings mud at
> Linux/FOSS, "Linux Advocates" object and point out how unethical the
> flinger is. While there is nothing wrong with defending Linux/FOSS,

Actually, there is. Linux/FOSS should need no defense.
It stands on its own.

(To be fair, Amiga was also at one point standing pretty
well on its own, from a technical standpoint. Too bad
it didn't sell -- and Commodore died for lack of selling it.)

> the
> problem is that the Linux/FOSS advocates like to see themselves as
> morally superior and /yet/, they turn around and throw mud right back.
> This is hypocritical. One need look no farther than this forum or
> Slashdot to see examples of this type of "advocacy".
>
> Now, this obviously does not apply to /all/ Linux supporters, but there
> do seem to be quite a few vocally abusive Linux supporters that this
> applies to, and unfortunately they are the loud ones.
>
> My feeling is that if they took a step back and saw how they made the
> Linux/FOSS community look through the eyes of potential converts, they
> would realize that they are only hurting the Linux/FOSS reputation and
> are not convincing anyone to make the jump to Linux/FOSS.

It matters little. Linux/FOSS needs absolutely no advocacy
-- at least if given half a chance, anyway. It's Microsoft
Windows Vista Ultimate Price Edition that needs to be sold.

And that's what some of the posters in here are in fact
doing. ;-)

>
> How many times have you heard people say that Linux/FOSS advocates seem
> like hostile zealots

Seem?

> by either potential converts or the proprietary
> software industry (likely as part of a FUD campaign)? Does that sound
> like a warm and fuzzy description of the Linux/FOSS community?
>
> No, it does not.

But it is an accurate one here in COLA. Admittedly, it may
be an outgrowth of the Unix maxim "Sure, Unix is friendly;
it's just picky about its friends".

Maybe we're a little picky about our software? :-) Like,
maybe, that it actually works in a reasonably predictable
(if not always desirable) fashion?

>
> My issue is that these abusive advocates are doing more harm than good.
>
> My hope is that said advocates simply do not realize what they are doing
> and that once they see the light, they will change their ways and
> advocate Linux/FOSS in constructive ways. For example, Roy Schestowitz
> has recently posted some constructive articles about successes in Linux.

Roy's solution is decidedly mixed. Of course, I'm not
about to research all of his articles, but some of the
Winvocates are claiming that he mangles headlines (I've
seen him do that, but only unintentionally), misrepresents
articles, and other such. Personally, I think Roy's heart
is in the right place, and some of the accusations are even
wilder -- the general idea being using a copyrighted picture
without permission on his website, or other such.

This sort of thing detracts from what appears to be Roy's
central point: that Linux has some buzz, that there are
companies using Linux, that blogs mention Linux in a positive
light, that Linux generates news, that Linux has advantages,
that Linux works just about everywhere it needs to, etc.

And yes, he has some posts about that rival, too; can't
avoid them in a monopolistic desktop market and other
markets into which where the rival is attempting to expand
(e.g., mobiles). Microsoft and Microsoft Windows are
not standing still; Microsoft will continue to sell until
its dying breath, as that is what it is designed to do,
as a corporation. Microsoft Windows will be improved to
help it to sell; certainly Vista is a much-needed upgrade
in the Windows community, though IMO it's a day late and
a dollar short; most Linux distros have passed it by from
a technical standpoint.

> This is the type of advocacy that helps Linux.

If done correctly. However, at best it's only half the
truth; what about the articles that indicate Windows
is better? (They're out there; the IDC study is probably
the most readily known.) Admittedly, one has to ask the
obvious question of which set of articles is generally
more accurate, and how one defines "better"; the Windows
way is not better though it might be more consistent, mostly
because Windows is so idiotically ubiquitous.

(Nor is it clear that Windows is more consistent. However,
I don't have any examples offhand.)

> On the other hand, making
> unsubstantiated claims of IP infringement only serves to keep people
> away from Linux because they fear they cannot trust it - this is playing
> right into Microsoft's hands.

Microsoft has made similar claims -- 235 patent
violations according to news reports. They feel they
do have substantiation but have yet to show their hand.
I'd liken this to a high-stakes game of poker -- and that
may not be all that far off an analogy. Whom do *you*
believe out there, Gentle Reader? A loose-knit bunch
of bloggers, amateur advocates, zealots, and users, or a
gigantic monopolizing corporation?

Hobson's choice, perhaps -- though one has to wonder. At
least the bunch don't have a huge amount of bribery money
(though IBM is probably watching all this fairly closely).

>
>
> I'm probably naive in thinking that all people are inherently good,

That is a philosophical question for another day, and
inherently false anyway.

- First, all people inherently do not even meaningfully
*exist* unless trained (the first stage of training
arguably being sitting on the toilet, the second one's
native tongue -- though one could quibble endlessly here,
and I'm not that knowledgeable about child psychology or
even pragmatic baby rearing to be all that helpful here).

In other words, identity has to be learned, projected,
occasionally fought for. Who are you, really?
Who am I? How does one establish one's territory?
The more genteel method: words. Some might use visceral
pictures or movies, appealing to the emotional side in
most of us. Some might use even more primitive methods,
such as weaponry -- and it is frightful to contemplate
the number of ways we can harm one enother, from the
pointed barb, the word (which can generally be laughed
off) to the pointed barb, the fishhook or spearhead
(which is hard to pull out and damages flesh) to the
club to the bullet to the bomb to the current ultimate
hydrogen explosive device, which fortunately has never
been used in warfare -- but that doesn't mean it never
will -- to the ultimate sci-fi matter-antimatter weapon,
which will hopefully never be realized in practice.

(The establishment of one's identity for purposes of
remuneration is a related though not as interesting
issue.)

- Second, "good" is a social norm, and also has to be
learned as well; if one looks at the problem from a
certain direction, the hero tends to constrain himself
while attempting to save the world from the clutches of
the evil, immoral black-tophatted villain. [*]

In other words, the hero won't try to kidnap the
villain's mistress (not that that would help all
that much; the villain would just find another,
presumably!) or otherwise do evil, nefarious deeds
in order to stop his nemesis; the villain has no such
constraints (though he might have other constraints;
it's hard to extort tribute from a destroyed planet,
or a dead father, for example :-) ).

So yes, you are naive, but then, it's a nice thought;
people do have a streak of altruism in them, by and large
(it makes *us* feel good to help someone in need -- but
the flip side is that it may create a dependency) and
we're a generally social animal anyway, craving to belong,
make an influence, find a mate, and leave a lasting legacy
(children, if nothing else).

> but
> I'd argue that it doesn't hurt to try to show people
> the err of their ways.

Ah, but it does. The example coming most readily to mind,
admittedly, is drilling in the tooth -- which to me at
least is exquisite torture, for a short time, mostly
because of the very annoying sound of the drill (the
pain is numbed out by local anesthetics, fortunately --
unless one has a *very* sadistic dentist). The discomfort
suffered is for the greater good of not losing one's tooth
later, or running the risk of formation of an abcess or
stimulation of the tooth's nerve -- the dreaded toothache.

Chemotherapy is another such, for the eradication of
cancer; cancerous cells apparently are just a little more
sensitive, so the rest of the cells put up with the assault
(except, perhaps, certain hair follicles).

On a larger front, one might contemplate road construction;
the constriction by construction of traffic is tolerated
for a number of months in order to (eventually) improve
traffic flow. Building construction to a lesser extent
can also be included here -- though in most cases the
site where the building is done doesn't get in the way of
anyone else. Those living nearby or walking by, though,
might have to put up with dust and noise for awhile.

Of course there's harm and there's harm; the gentle nudge
back on the "right path" by using calmly spoken neutral
language or a quietly pointed finger (implying "it's over
there") *is* comparable to blowing away the enemy with a
howitzer, though maybe not all that meaningfully (one can,
after all, compare a microbe or an ant to the Empire State
building, too), but I'm not sure how else to characterize
the problem except by using words such as "influence"
or "impart" (one usually imparts one's will) as well,
and on the other side "render resistance ineffective"
or even "destroy".

> If I'm successful, then all the better for
> Linux/FOSS advocacy. If I fail, then Linux/FOSS advocacy
> stays the same.

If you're lucky. :-)

>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Jeff

[*] the modern notion of the melodrama probably wasn't
extant until the end of the 19th century, according
to Wikipedia. I've no idea how the top hat came to
be associated with the moustaches, though Wiki does
mention that tophats were popular at about the time
the silent movie serials _The Perils of Pauline_ were
being shown -- 1910's or thereabouts.

--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
"640K ought to be enough for anybody."
- allegedly said by Bill Gates, 1981, but somebody had to make this up!

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Sinister Midget

unread,
Nov 6, 2007, 12:15:09 PM11/6/07
to
On 2007-11-06, Jeffrey Stedfast <sted...@comcast.net> claimed:

> chrisv wrote:
>> Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:
>>
>>>> Lying "advocates" such as those found on comp.os.linux.advocacy don't care
>>>> that their lies are ridiculous and transparent. They just spew them and
>>>> ignore the truth and spew them some more.
>>> That is truly unfortunate.
>>
>> It's a lie.
>>
>> It appears that you don't realize that the "DFS" twit that you are
>> responding-to is about as worthless a lying POS as you can find
>> trolling a newsgroup. You'd be well-advised to take nothing he writes
>> as the truth. Indeed, the best thing is to simply ignore him.
>>
>
> It seems to me that DFS is simply frustrated by the hypocrisy and
> mud-slinging thrown around by self-proclaimed "Linux Advocates". If I
> were to hazard a guess, it would be that DFS feels that the Linux/FOSS
> community should hold itself to the same high moral standards that the
> Linux/FOSS community feels the proprietary software industry should be
> held to.

It's a chicken-egg situation. DuFuS seems frustrated perhaps (I
personally think it's a case of crocodile tears). But DuFuS brought on
some of the things that frustrate him by acting radical on his own,
spurring others to be radical. DuFuS was/is such a twit that sometimes
people say things to set him off. It works. So much so that now he
believes that everything said is believed by everyone saying them.

DuFuS earned his names: DuFus, Doofus, Doofie, DumbFullShit, Dumb
Fucking Shit, etc. He got them for being an antagonistic prick. You can
side with him if you'd like. But eventually you'll see that you've been
had, And in the interim you'll probably suffer some abuse as well for
supporting an antagonistic prick.

It's better to not entertain his wild-eyed, paranoid assertions, and
just let him go on his kook tirades alone. But that's your decision.

--
Support the Right to Arm Bears!

[H]omer

unread,
Nov 6, 2007, 4:25:35 PM11/6/07
to
[snip]

I am not suggesting that you are wilfully breaking any law, in fact I
have already stated that Microsoft (through ECMA) make RAND promises WRT
.NET (or part of it at least). But the fact is that neither you (as a
developer) nor I (as a user of what you may develop) can give any hard
assurances that anything we touch that is built upon .NET technology
won't some day be used by Microsoft to enforce their "claims" that they
have rights WRT GNU/Linux (thus justifying cross-licensing).

Ballmer has /already/ used such claims (not .NET related so far) to
coerce at least four companies into paying "protection money". The
prospect that, at some time in the future, it will be impossible to use
GNU/Linux without paying Microsoft, horrifies me.

Convince me that will never happen.

Convince me that Mono will never play a part in that.

When it comes to Mono, I am merely stating my desire of /not/ wanting to
deal with Microsoft ... ever.

I apologise if my rant seemed to be singling you out; the object of my
dissent is not /you/, it is Mono. However, I despair at those who
support it.

--
K.
http://slated.org

.----


| "[Microsoft] are willing to lose money for years and years just to
| make sure that you don't make any money, either." - Bob Cringely.
| - http://blog.businessofsoftware.org/2007/07/cringely-the-un.html

`----

Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.22.1-41.fc7

21:24:15 up 89 days, 21:19, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.02, 0.00

Roy Schestowitz

unread,
Nov 6, 2007, 5:29:46 PM11/6/07
to
____/ chrisv on Tuesday 06 November 2007 16:07 : \____

No, he just doesn't know who or what "DFS" is. As the saying goes in
Slashdot, "you must be new here."

--
~~ Best of wishes

http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Mem: 515500k total, 444304k used, 71196k free, 4800k buffers

chrisv

unread,
Nov 7, 2007, 8:53:34 AM11/7/07
to
Roy Schestowitz wrote:

>____/ chrisv on Tuesday 06 November 2007 16:07 : \____
>
>> Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:
>>
>>>> It appears that you don't realize that the "DFS" twit that you are
>>>> responding-to is about as worthless a lying POS as you can find
>>>> trolling a newsgroup. You'd be well-advised to take nothing he writes
>>>> as the truth. Indeed, the best thing is to simply ignore him.
>>>
>>>It seems to me that DFS is simply frustrated by the hypocrisy and
>>>mud-slinging thrown around by self-proclaimed "Linux Advocates"
>>
>> It seems to me that you're a worthless troll yourself.
>>
>> *plonk*
>
>No, he just doesn't know who or what "DFS" is. As the saying goes in
>Slashdot, "you must be new here."

Well, what kind of fscking idiot comes-into an advocacy group and
immediately sides with an anti-advocate troll against the advocates?
Perhaps the idiot should consider lurking before taking sides.

Mark Kent

unread,
Nov 7, 2007, 11:22:16 AM11/7/07
to
Roy Schestowitz <newsg...@schestowitz.com> espoused:

> ____/ chrisv on Tuesday 06 November 2007 16:07 : \____
>
>> Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:
>>
>>>> It appears that you don't realize that the "DFS" twit that you are
>>>> responding-to is about as worthless a lying POS as you can find
>>>> trolling a newsgroup. You'd be well-advised to take nothing he writes
>>>> as the truth. Indeed, the best thing is to simply ignore him.
>>>
>>>It seems to me that DFS is simply frustrated by the hypocrisy and
>>>mud-slinging thrown around by self-proclaimed "Linux Advocates"
>>
>> It seems to me that you're a worthless troll yourself.
>>
>> *plonk*
>
> No, he just doesn't know who or what "DFS" is. As the saying goes in
> Slashdot, "you must be new here."
>

He´s been caught with his trousers down, and with the arrogance I´ve
come to expect from those who come here to spin, for example, the
redefinition of the term retraction is an interesting one, and
demonstrates the deep dishonesty of the writer.

When people are that dishonest, it´s typically becuase they believe
that they are so much more intelligent than the people they´re dealing
with that they can pull the wool over their eyes by being deeply
insulting, as this chap has been and continues to be, whilst trying to
dress it as ¨adult¨helpful advice.

As you say, he must be new here. And clearly far too lazy to perform
even the slightest investigation of the environment.

I would expect no less from a Microsoft apologist.

--
| Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
| Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
| Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
| My (new) blog: http://www.thereisnomagic.org |

Amanda Shithousedoor

unread,
Nov 8, 2007, 10:33:17 AM11/8/07
to
"chrisv" <chr...@nospam.invalid> schreef in bericht
news:5941j3pe8tj2scpkp...@4ax.com...

*plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk*
*plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk*
*plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk*
*plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk*
*plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk*
*plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk*
*plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk*
*plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk*
*plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk*
*plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk*
*plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* *plonk*

?


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