Swift loading dfs's list of words :P

[Branimir Maksimovic]

import Foundation
@main
struct Main {
static func main(){
do {
let s = try String(contentsOfFile:"words_alpha.txt")
let sep = CharacterSet(charactersIn:" \t\r\n")
let words = s.components(separatedBy:sep)
print(String(format:"loaded %d words",words.count))
print(String(format:"first and last words %@ %@",words[0],words[words.count-1]))
} catch {
print("error reading \"words_alpha.txt\" %@",error)
}
}
}

time :
bmaxa@Branimirs-Air english-words % swiftc -Ounchecked words.swift -parse-as-library
bmaxa@Branimirs-Air english-words % time ./words
loaded 370103 words
first and last words a zwitterionic
./words 0.11s user 0.01s system 96% cpu 0.127 total

So why bother with C?


--
bmaxa now listens Vanguard by yelworC from Collection 88-94

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

Maksimovic:

> So why bother with C?

Because God himself speaks C/C++ (ha ha).

[Branimir Maksimovic]

Most Boring thing in C is parsing chars...


--
bmaxa now listens 05 strike

[DFS]

C is a HASSLE! But it's important for me to not get stuck using python,
so I usually create a C version of everything I make in python. It
takes me at least 5x as long.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
import sys, time
dictfile = sys.argv[1]
t0 = time.perf_counter()
try:
with open(dictfile) as f:
words = f.read().splitlines()
except BaseException as error:
print(error)
exit()
t1 = time.perf_counter()
print('\n%d words loaded in %.3f seconds' % (len(words), (t1 - t0)))
print("First word '%s', Last word '%s'" % (words[0],words[len(words)-1]))
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

$ python loadwords.py words_alpha.txt

370103 words loaded in 0.077 seconds
First word 'a', Last word 'zwitterionic'


pwned

Get with the .py!

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

You (Maksimovic) replied ( to me ):

> God himself speaks C/C++ (ha ha).
>
> Most Boring thing in C is parsing chars...

Speaking for myself, and no one else,
the C++ code I write is _not_ boring, to say the least.

Left alone, I sleep longer, altering my "normal" wake-up time.
"BedTime.PNG" estimates when I'd go to sleep & wake up ( if undisturbed ):

http://Jeff-Relf.Me/BedTime.PNG

Some of the code changes I made yesterday:

// Notice the " gOff: Bac( >= 5, gOn ) gOn: Bac( <= 2, gOff ) "
// and the " pOff: pOn: " goto labels.
//
// Also, notice my love affair with "#define";
// without it, I feel naked.

http://Jeff-Relf.Me/Diff.PNG
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.HTM
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.ZIP

#define SkipLn ( !( B = *PP ) || !*B || *B == '/' )
#define _OK ( Lv&1 && ( **OK = 0 ), Lv = 0, OK = PP )
#define gRec( ＠ ) ( rv＠ = ＠ - _10amSecs, rvRec = *SecsToFields( rv＠ ), 0 )
#define g＠( ＠ ) ( ＠ = Base360_To_Secs( B ) )
#define Fwd { while ( ++PP < EE && SkipLn ); if ( PP >= EE ) break ; }
#define Bac( Indented, gNext ) { while ( --PP >= BB && SkipLn ); if ( PP < BB && _OK ) break ; \
if ( _B = B, !( B[-1] Indented ) || *B != '.' && !isDigit( *B ) || !g＠( Big＠ ) ) goto UneXpected ; \
if ( PP > _BB && AtoF( B ) < 1.5 ) { **PP = 0, Lv++, Dirty = 1 ; goto gNext ; } _OK ; }

if ( ClearScreen, Diff_Load = 1, !Load_File( LocDir, AwayLog ) || !fpLines.BB ) { Sh( L" － Couldn't READ \"%s\".", TheOpenFile ); return; }
if ( !( _B = B = *fpLines.BB ) ) { Sh( L" － \"%s\" is Bad. ", TheOpenFile ); return ; }
i = fv = Lv = Saved = Big＠ = On＠ = 0, OK = fpLines.PP, Dirty = !( *B == '/' && ( fv = AtoF( B + 4 ) ) ), DaysPerHr = ER( .9, fv );
{ LoopPP( Ln, fpLines ) { PP-- ; Fwd if ( ++i >= 2 ) break ; } _BB = PP ; }
{ LoopBacPP( Ln, fpLines ) { PP++ ; gOff: Bac( >= 5, gOn ) gOn: Bac( <= 2, gOff ) On＠ = Big＠ ; } }
if ( Big＠ != On＠ ) { UneXpected: Sh( L" － \"%*s%s\" in \"%s\" is UneXpected. ", _B[-1], L"", _B, TheOpenFile ); return ; }
gRec( Big＠ ), TopRec = rvRec, TopRec.tm_mday++, TopRec.tm_hour = TopRec.tm_min = TopRec.tm_sec = 0, Big＠ = mktime( &TopRec ) + _10amSecs - 1 ;
if ( Dirty ) { i = On＠ = Off＠ = 0, D = _B_Sh, *D++ = UTF_16_Sig ; D += Str( D, L"// \r\n" );
{ LoopPP( Ln, fpLines ) { PP-- ; Fwd if ( g＠( On＠ ), !Off＠ ) goto pOn ; h = ( Off＠ - On＠ )/3600. ;
pOff: gDate( Off＠ ), i = 0, D += Str( D, L"%s %s %s %s\r\n", L" ",_4·1( h ), B_gDate, u64_toBase360( Off＠ ) );
if ( ( Big＠ - Off＠ )/_24_60_60 > PlotDays + 2 ) break ;

pOn: Fwd g＠( Off＠ ), gDate( On＠ ), i = 1, D += Str( D, L"%s %s %s %s\r\n", _4·1( ( On＠ - Off＠ )/3600. ), L" ", B_gDate, u64_toBase360( On＠ ) ); } }

if ( h = 99, i ) goto pOff ; fOpen( LocDir, AwayLog, L"wb" ), fwrite( _B_Sh, szChr, D - _B_Sh, fp ), fClose ;
if ( Diff_Load = 1, !Load_File( LocDir, AwayLog ) ) { Sh( L"－－ Couldn't READ \"%s\".", TheOpenFile ); return; } }

[Branimir Maksimovic]

Bravo!
>


--
bmaxa now listens Penis Et Circes by Impaled Nazarene from Rapture

[Branimir Maksimovic]

Jeff, that code is unreadable...

[Steve Carroll]

OMG! You drank the Koolaid! How much and how long ago?!

;)

[Steve Carroll]

You need 'Relf-Ray' vision.

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

You (Maksimovic) replied ( to me ):

> > { LoopBacPP( Ln, fpLines ) { PP++ ;
> > gOff: Bac( >= 5, gOn )
> > gOn: Bac( <= 2, gOff ) On＠ = Big＠ ; } }
>

> Jeff, that code is unreadable...

Yet C++ professionals _have_ modified my code,
bitching and moaning all the way.

[Branimir Maksimovic]

I have diabetes :P


--
bmaxa now listens Setlon by Eluveitie from Everything Remains as it Never Was

[Branimir Maksimovic]

On 2021-07-20, Jeff-Relf.Me @. <Jeff-Relf.Me@> wrote:

That code is readonly, can't be modified...

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

You (Maksimovic) replied ( to me ):

> > C++ professionals _have_ modified my code,
> > bitching and moaning all the way.
>
> That code is readonly, can't be modified...

I'm not drawing cartoons for five-year-old girls.

UnLike you, I'm all about the results, the app,
not how _fast_ it runs, nor how _easy_ it is to read.

[Branimir Maksimovic]

On 2021-07-20, Jeff-Relf.Me @. <Jeff-Relf.Me@> wrote:

I bet no one pay you for that :P

--
bmaxa now listens The bloodhoundgang A lap dance is so much better when the stripper is crying by artist from title

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

You (Maksimovic) replied ( to me ):

> > I'm not drawing cartoons for Little girls.
> >
> > UnLike you, I'm about the results, the app,

> > not how _fast_ it runs,

> > nor how _easy_ the C++ source code is to read.

>
> I bet no one pay you for that :P

Not only was _I_ paid,
others were also paid to modify my source code.

http://Jeff-Relf.Me/2019.ABA.Agreement.PDF

That job, contracting for "The Bankers"
( "ABA.COM", Washington DC ) lasted 36 years
( ending at the end of 2019 ).

2020, the government paid me 10 thousand $ to _not_ work.

I manage a 32 unit rooming house; so I pay no rent.

The government gives me 329 $/month for food.

Free Healthcare ( which I never use ).

"Amazon Fresh" delivers groceries within a 2 hour window,
same-day delivery. The driver calls me when he arrives,
then directly hands me the bags, so they aren't stolen.

I pay _Zero_ $ for these quick/safe deliveries,
and I can track the driver on a map, hours before he arrives.

Yes, that's what it's like when
you live in a filthy-rich city, like Seattle.

People come her from all over the world to _not_ work.

[DFS]

On 7/19/2021 8:20 PM, Jeff-Relf.Me@. wrote:
> if ( ClearScreen, Diff_Load = 1, !Load_File( LocDir, AwayLog ) || !fpLines.BB ) { Sh( L" － Couldn't READ \"%s\".", TheOpenFile ); return; }
> if ( !( _B = B = *fpLines.BB ) ) { Sh( L" － \"%s\" is Bad. ", TheOpenFile ); return ; }
> i = fv = Lv = Saved = Big＠ = On＠ = 0, OK = fpLines.PP, Dirty = !( *B == '/' && ( fv = AtoF( B + 4 ) ) ), DaysPerHr = ER( .9, fv );
> { LoopPP( Ln, fpLines ) { PP-- ; Fwd if ( ++i >= 2 ) break ; } _BB = PP ; }
> { LoopBacPP( Ln, fpLines ) { PP++ ; gOff: Bac( >= 5, gOn ) gOn: Bac( <= 2, gOff ) On＠ = Big＠ ; } }
> if ( Big＠ != On＠ ) { UneXpected: Sh( L" － \"%*s%s\" in \"%s\" is UneXpected. ", _B[-1], L"", _B, TheOpenFile ); return ; }
> gRec( Big＠ ), TopRec = rvRec, TopRec.tm_mday++, TopRec.tm_hour = TopRec.tm_min = TopRec.tm_sec = 0, Big＠ = mktime( &TopRec ) + _10amSecs - 1 ;
> if ( Dirty ) { i = On＠ = Off＠ = 0, D = _B_Sh, *D++ = UTF_16_Sig ; D += Str( D, L"// \r\n" );
> { LoopPP( Ln, fpLines ) { PP-- ; Fwd if ( g＠( On＠ ), !Off＠ ) goto pOn ; h = ( Off＠ - On＠ )/3600. ;
> pOff: gDate( Off＠ ), i = 0, D += Str( D, L"%s %s %s %s\r\n", L" ",_4·1( h ), B_gDate, u64_toBase360( Off＠ ) );
> if ( ( Big＠ - Off＠ )/_24_60_60 > PlotDays + 2 ) break ;
>
> pOn: Fwd g＠( Off＠ ), gDate( On＠ ), i = 1, D += Str( D, L"%s %s %s %s\r\n", _4·1( ( On＠ - Off＠ )/3600. ), L" ", B_gDate, u64_toBase360( On＠ ) ); } }
>
> if ( h = 99, i ) goto pOff ; fOpen( LocDir, AwayLog, L"wb" ), fwrite( _B_Sh, szChr, D - _B_Sh, fp ), fClose ;
> if ( Diff_Load = 1, !Load_File( LocDir, AwayLog ) ) { Sh( L"－－ Couldn't READ \"%s\".", TheOpenFile ); return; } }

https://imgur.com/a/pyvrWya


It still doesn't make a lick of sense.

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

You (DFS) replied ( to me ):
> > Without "#define", I feel naked.

> > { LoopBacPP( Ln, fpLines ) { PP++ ; gOff: Bac( >= 5, gOn ) gOn: Bac( <= 2, gOff ) On＠ = Big＠ ; } }
> > if ( Big＠ != On＠ ) { UneXpected: Sh( L" － \"%*s%s\" in \"%s\" is UneXpected. ", _B[-1], L"", _B, TheOpenFile ); return ; }
>

> https://imgur.com/a/pyvrWya
> It still doesn't make a lick of sense.

Left alone, I sleep longer, altering my "normal" wake-up time.
"BedTime.PNG" estimates when I'd go to sleep & wake up ( if undisturbed ):
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/BedTime.PNG

What the app _does_ is the _only_ thing that matters.

I'm the _only_ one who has to read the source code.
So why bitch ?!

If you like what the app does, write one yourself;
don't try to modify my code.

The speed is so much _not_ an issue, it's ridiculous;
yet that's all you guys ever talk about: Speed.

[Branimir Maksimovic]

On 2021-07-20, Jeff-Relf.Me @. <Jeff-Relf.Me@> wrote:

Speed is not matter if program finish in reasonable time...


--
bmaxa now listens Gilles Peterson 03 - 06 - 04 Part2

[chrisv]

Branimir Maksimovic wrote:

> Relf wrote:
>>
>> (garbage snipped)

>>
>Jeff, that code is unreadable...

If you can read Relf's code, he feels naked.

--
"[chrisv] claims [Relf's] code is shitty. Let's see him substantiate
it with some facts and a code analysis." - trolling fsckwit
"Ezekiel", regarding this mess: http://jeff-relf.me/X.ZIP

[F Russell]

On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 02:50:22 +0000, Branimir Maksimovic wrote:

> >
>> The speed is so much _not_ an issue, it's ridiculous;
>> yet that's all you guys ever talk about: Speed.
>
> Speed is not matter if program finish in reasonable time...
>

Speed is the most important and significant factor in all
of computing. Indeed, speed is the reason that computers,
both analog and digital, were developed.

You obviously do not create demanding software.

I create physical simulations that have a run time not
in seconds, not in minutes, but in HOURS, or even
DAYS if pushed to extreme limits. Any increase in speed
would significantly reduce the run time and that is
always very desirable. Waiting for 1 hour is much better
that waiting for 2 hours.

For SERIOUS computing speed is all.

For Mickey Mouse email/netflix/facebook then any
sluggish junk will do.


--

Systemd free. D.E. free.

Always and forever.

[F Russell]

On Mon, 19 Jul 2021 22:19:32 -0500, chrisv wrote:

>>
>>Jeff, that code is unreadable...
>
> If you can read Relf's code, he feels naked.
>

He's obviously not writing for the sake of the corporate
group. He's writing for himself.

That's what PERSONAL COMPUTING is all about.

I create professional-level programs on my personal
machine that are intended for myself alone. Many other
people do the same. Therefore, I am under no obligation
to make my code readable to others, and I don't.

OTOH, when I present code on my personal web site then
I will be careful with formatting and comments so that
visitors can understand.

Remember: not all programming is done under the auspices
of some grubbing commercial enterprise. In fact, the best
and most efficient code invariably is not.

[DFS]

On 7/20/2021 11:30 AM, F Russell wrote:

> I create physical simulations that have a run time not
> in seconds, not in minutes, but in HOURS, or even
> DAYS if pushed to extreme limits.

DAYS? That must be the shittiest code ever written in the history of
programming.

You need to get a 'REAL MAN' to write your programs.

[DFS]

Care to share some of the bitching emails they sent (remove all
identifying info)? I'm curious what they said about your code.

When you say 'modified'... I think you mean they rewrote nearly every
letter of it. A true pro definitely would, if it resembled what you've
posted. And they would add comments.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2021-07-20, Jeff-Relf.Me @. <Jeff-Relf.Me@> wrote:

Speed does matter with web based apps.

[F Russell]

On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 21:12:02 +0000, Steve Carroll wrote:

>
> Speed does matter with web based apps.
>

Sorry, asshole.

Web sites that are written in basic HTML/CSS have no problem
with speed.

Try surfing with "links -g" to discover that basic truism.

It is the fashionable, javashit-laden crap sites that require the power
of the latest processors.

If web developers (all stupid assholes like you) were not pressured
by their commercial overlords to conform to the outlandish
status quo then there would be less of a problem.

I say "less" because web development is practiced only by
retarded digital cripples (like you) that cannot distinguish their'
arse from a hole in the ground.

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

You (DFS) replied ( to me ):

> > C++ professionals _have_ modified my code,
> > bitching and moaning all the way.
>

> Care to share some of the emails they sent ?

I too would _love_ to see that, and I was expecting it,
but they never communicated much with me, not directly.

GSB.ORG's Bank Management Simulation, 13k lines,
"BMSim.2007.08.08.CPP", a.k.a. ABA.COM's BankSim(c),
_entirely_ written by me, under the direction of banking
professionals and ThePCBS.ORG's version of it,
"Panther.CPP" ( 31k lines ):

http://Jeff-Relf.Me/BMSim.2007.08.08.CPP
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/Panther.CPP
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/xPanther.CPP

// "xPanther.CPP" includes updates I made to _their_ code.
// The "Jeff" & "Jeff2" mentioned in "Panther.CPP" aren't me.

There are a number of other versions,
including FX exchange simulations in Chinese and Russian,
probably paid for by USAID.

> When you say 'modified'... I think you mean they
> rewrote nearly every letter of it.

You've no idea.

It's 31 thousand lines of C++ code;
not JavaScript in a webpage, not PostScript,
not macros in a spreadsheet.

They added white space everywhere, so I can't diff it.
I diff'ed the output, sets of 50 reports each.
They made _no_ mistakes, despite rewriting a number of reports.

> A true pro definitely would.

You've no idea.

> They'd add comments too.

When I re-factor source code,
the line count drops way, way down.

Whitespace & Comments are a _huge_ red flag;
it means someone doesn't understand what's going on.

I _begrudgingly_ added (minimal) Whitespace & Comments to
"BMSim.2007.08.08.CPP", for them.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2021-07-20, F Russell <f...@random.info> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 21:12:02 +0000, Steve Carroll wrote:
>
>>
>> Speed does matter with web based apps.
>>
>
> Sorry, asshole.
>
> Web sites

... are not apps.

[Branimir Maksimovic]

On 2021-07-20, Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none> wrote:

web ui for apps :P
>


--
bmaxa now listens Solidarity by Angelic Upstarts from The Independent Punk Singles Collection

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

You (Maksimovic) replied ( to Steve ):
> > Web sites are not apps.

>
> web ui for apps :P

You can talk all day long about how fast or slow random
JavaScript might be but, if it isn't doing anything,
it's just another "code puzzle" for another retard.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2021-07-20, Branimir Maksimovic <branimir....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2021-07-20, Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none> wrote:
>> On 2021-07-20, F Russell <f...@random.info> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 21:12:02 +0000, Steve Carroll wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Speed does matter with web based apps.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, asshole.
>>>
>>> Web sites
>>
>> ... are not apps.
>
> web ui for apps :P

Not just UI, you can run an app in a web page and that app will rely on
speed. The little image (display) gallery thing I wrote to show hh what
was possible with respect to his requirements is one example.

[Steve Carroll]

That gallery gizmo I wrote to show hh is doing something, it sorts
images that will be shown based on selections that are made and I assure
you there is definitely a speed component to it.

<https://i.ibb.co/wB8w4Mf/gallery-demo.png>

There are 10,000 JS objects, representing as many faux images, in this
collection. I could make it run miserably slow if I wanted, to the
point where most would consider it unusable. As it is, the 10,000
objects get constructed in the blink of an eye, the window can't keep
up, obviously, it's limited by the browser's ability to render. The
point is... the JS isn't the bottleneck.

[rbowman]

Try reprojecting gigabytes of MrSID data sometime...

[rbowman]

That's the most frequent complaint from our clients and that's not even
with a web app. The world is into instant gratification. Luckily I don't
interface directly with the clients or I'd be asking questions like 'How
long did it take Firefox to load that cat video?'

[Steve Carroll]

On 2021-07-21, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:
> On 07/20/2021 03:12 PM, Steve Carroll wrote:
>> On 2021-07-20, Jeff-Relf.Me @. <Jeff-Relf.Me@> wrote:
>>> You (DFS) replied ( to me ):
>>>>> Without "#define", I feel naked.
>>>>> { LoopBacPP( Ln, fpLines ) { PP++ ; gOff: Bac( >= 5, gOn ) gOn: Bac( <= 2, gOff ) On＠ = Big＠ ; } }
>>>>> if ( Big＠ != On＠ ) { UneXpected: Sh( L" － \"%*s%s\" in \"%s\" is UneXpected. ", _B[-1], L"", _B, TheOpenFile ); return ; }
>>>>
>>>> https://imgur.com/a/pyvrWya
>>>> It still doesn't make a lick of sense.
>>>
>>> Left alone, I sleep longer, altering my "normal" wake-up time.
>>> "BedTime.PNG" estimates when I'd go to sleep & wake up ( if undisturbed ):
>>> http://Jeff-Relf.Me/BedTime.PNG
>>>
>>> What the app _does_ is the _only_ thing that matters.
>>>
>>> I'm the _only_ one who has to read the source code.
>>> So why bitch ?!
>>>
>>> If you like what the app does, write one yourself;
>>> don't try to modify my code.
>>>
>>> The speed is so much _not_ an issue, it's ridiculous;
>>> yet that's all you guys ever talk about: Speed.
>>
>> Speed does matter with web based apps.
>>
>
> That's the most frequent complaint from our clients and that's not even
> with a web app.

That's true, too... I could be wrong but I think Relf is more focused on
the 'JS running speed' aspect here than with things like 'site loading
speed' (which also includes 'JS running speed').

> The world is into instant gratification. Luckily I don't
> interface directly with the clients or I'd be asking questions like 'How
> long did it take Firefox to load that cat video?'

LOL!

[dfs]

Yeah, I don't know what that means...

[Snit]

On Jul 20, 2021 at 5:03:30 PM MST, "Jeff-Relf.Me @." wrote
<Jeff-R...@Jul.20--5.03pm.Seattle.2021>:

This is similar to what I have been telling Carroll. He has skills -- I
commend him for them -- but his work is about showing the work, or showing he
can do it. He has pretty much nothing where he is using the tools he learns to
get other work done. It is like using a word processor to show what a word
processor can do -- there is absolutely a time for that, but if you are not
using the word processor to write what is the point? Carroll makes demos, even
impressive ones, but if he is just using the tech to show what he can do --
and generally even then just to try to impress those he feels inferior to --
what is the point?


--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.

[rbowman]

MrSID is a compression scheme for raster files like satellite imagery.
Its claim to fame is you can load partial data like the images for a
particular zoom level without loading the whole mess. The files tend to
be huge.

Many times the data you get is WGS84 which is standard for web stuff.
That's a geographic projection where the coordinates are latitude and
longitude.

Many sites use a projected coordinate system like State Plane.
Representing the surface of a sphere in a plane is a compromise. State
plane has a number of zones for almost all states. For example Missouri
has three different projections centered on KC, Jefferson City, and St.
Louis. The idea is to minimize distortion.

So here you have this great satellite imagery except the roads don't
quite line up with the SPCS vector roads. Reprojection is basically
pixel twiddling, stretch, tuck, and so forth to get everything to line
up. It tends to take forever.

A lot of GIS operations are like that. You fire up the software and go
away for the weekend and hope nothing blows up.

It would be nice to have some of the hardware they use for CGI.

[chrisv]

Steve Carroll wrote:

>That gallery gizmo I wrote to show hh is doing something, it sorts
>images that will be shown based on selections that are made and I assure
>you there is definitely a speed component to it.
>
><https://i.ibb.co/wB8w4Mf/gallery-demo.png>
>
>There are 10,000 JS objects, representing as many faux images, in this
>collection. I could make it run miserably slow if I wanted, to the
>point where most would consider it unusable. As it is, the 10,000
>objects get constructed in the blink of an eye, the window can't keep
>up, obviously, it's limited by the browser's ability to render. The
>point is... the JS isn't the bottleneck.

Did you need to test your JavaScript, to make sure that it worked as
expected, dipshit?

--
"As [chrisv] gave that appearance [of not knowing how important it is
to run/test a program, to make sure that it works as expected]" -
"Steve Carroll", lying shamelessly

[Steve Carroll]

On 2021-07-21, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 20, 2021 at 5:03:30 PM MST, "Jeff-Relf.Me @." wrote
><Jeff-R...@Jul.20--5.03pm.Seattle.2021>:
>
>> You (Maksimovic) replied ( to Steve ):
>>>> Web sites are not apps.
>>>
>>> web ui for apps :P
>>
>> You can talk all day long about how fast or slow random
>> JavaScript might be but, if it isn't doing anything,
>> it's just another "code puzzle" for another retard.
>
> This is similar to what I have been telling Carroll. He has skills -- I
> commend him for them -- but his work is about showing the work, or showing he
> can do it. He has pretty much nothing where he is using the tools he learns to
> get other work done. It is like using a word processor to show what a word
> processor can do -- there is absolutely a time for that, but if you are not
> using the word processor to write what is the point? Carroll makes demos, even
> impressive ones, but if he is just using the tech to show what he can do --
> and generally even then just to try to impress those he feels inferior to --
> what is the point?

Translation: Snit is *still* trying to use his 'psyche degree' to get me
to divulge those I've done work for so he can harass them.

Why does Snit persist in believing people are as stupid as he needs them
to be after almost two decades of being shown they aren't?

[Prescott Parasite Tracker v1.2]

Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none> wrote in
news:sd9kj8$8hi$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org:

The real question is why does snit need to drag your name into every
single thread posted?
And it *is* every single thread posted.

WTF is wrong with snit Mchael Glasser of Prescott Arizona?

[pothead]

> WTF is wrong with snit Michael Glasser of Prescott Arizona?

One could spend years discussing all the things that are wrong with
snit.
The short answer is snit's brain or what's left of his brain is fried
from years of prescription drug use and mixing of powerful drug
cocktails he uses to self medicate.
That's really all one needs to know.


--
pothead
Tommy Chong For President 2024
Lifetime Member of "The Prescott Parasite Eradication Team"
Ask snit how he pissed on his cat.
All about snit read below. Links courtesy of Ron:
https://web.archive.org/web/20181028000459/http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/snit.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20190529043314/http://cosmicpenguin.com/snitlist.html
https://web.archive.org/web/20190529062255/http://cosmicpenguin.com/snitLieMethods.html

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 10:13:12 AM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<sd9kj8$8hi$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

> On 2021-07-21, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 20, 2021 at 5:03:30 PM MST, "Jeff-Relf.Me @." wrote
>> <Jeff-R...@Jul.20--5.03pm.Seattle.2021>:
>>
>>> You (Maksimovic) replied ( to Steve ):
>>>>> Web sites are not apps.
>>>>
>>>> web ui for apps :P
>>>
>>> You can talk all day long about how fast or slow random
>>> JavaScript might be but, if it isn't doing anything,
>>> it's just another "code puzzle" for another retard.
>>
>> This is similar to what I have been telling Carroll. He has skills -- I
>> commend him for them -- but his work is about showing the work, or showing he
>> can do it. He has pretty much nothing where he is using the tools he learns to
>> get other work done. It is like using a word processor to show what a word
>> processor can do -- there is absolutely a time for that, but if you are not
>> using the word processor to write what is the point? Carroll makes demos, even
>> impressive ones, but if he is just using the tech to show what he can do --
>> and generally even then just to try to impress those he feels inferior to --
>> what is the point?
>
> Translation:

None needed. I speak for me. You speak for you. That is another fact you
struggle with.

[Steve Carroll]

No question.

> That's really all one needs to know.

Case in point: Look at one of his favorite circus rides where he pushes
the funky sites he's built as "real-world" sites, as opposed to those
'lowly demos'. Even the most clueless of lay people are aware that a
demo site, containing nothing more than lorem ipsum and placeholder
images, can be superior to a "real-world" site to the end user (I say
that based on the idea that the term "real-world" means a production
site, as opposed to a staging site, but he won't say). Even staging
sites are "real" sites and they are in the "world". In Snit's mind, this
site...

<http://automationpractice.com/index.php>

... isn't as good as this site:

<https://hildoclump.wordpress.com/>

... because only the latter is, somehow, a "real-world" site. I can't
even begin to imagine what's happened to his tiny brain.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2021-07-21, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 21, 2021 at 10:13:12 AM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
><sd9kj8$8hi$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:
>
>> On 2021-07-21, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Jul 20, 2021 at 5:03:30 PM MST, "Jeff-Relf.Me @." wrote
>>> <Jeff-R...@Jul.20--5.03pm.Seattle.2021>:
>>>
>>>> You (Maksimovic) replied ( to Steve ):
>>>>>> Web sites are not apps.
>>>>>
>>>>> web ui for apps :P
>>>>
>>>> You can talk all day long about how fast or slow random
>>>> JavaScript might be but, if it isn't doing anything,
>>>> it's just another "code puzzle" for another retard.
>>>
>>> This is similar to what I have been telling Carroll. He has skills -- I
>>> commend him for them -- but his work is about showing the work, or showing he
>>> can do it. He has pretty much nothing where he is using the tools he learns to
>>> get other work done. It is like using a word processor to show what a word
>>> processor can do -- there is absolutely a time for that, but if you are not
>>> using the word processor to write what is the point? Carroll makes demos, even
>>> impressive ones, but if he is just using the tech to show what he can do --
>>> and generally even then just to try to impress those he feels inferior to --
>>> what is the point?
>>
>> Translation:
>
> None needed. I speak for me.

Who *isn't* aware of the message you send with the above?

> You speak for you. That is another fact you
> struggle with.

Here's what you "struggle with":

<sd9rqq$lf8$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 7:46:39 AM MST, "chrisv" wrote
<rdcgfgpb0mkknj6om...@4ax.com>:

> Steve Carroll wrote:
>
>> That gallery gizmo I wrote to show hh is doing something, it sorts
>> images that will be shown based on selections that are made and I assure
>> you there is definitely a speed component to it.
>>
>> <https://i.ibb.co/wB8w4Mf/gallery-demo.png>
>>
>> There are 10,000 JS objects, representing as many faux images, in this
>> collection. I could make it run miserably slow if I wanted, to the
>> point where most would consider it unusable. As it is, the 10,000
>> objects get constructed in the blink of an eye, the window can't keep
>> up, obviously, it's limited by the browser's ability to render. The
>> point is... the JS isn't the bottleneck.
>
> Did you need to test your JavaScript, to make sure that it worked as
> expected, dipshit?

Carroll is not wrong that speed matters -- a claim nobody is suggesting
otherwise. Where he runs into issues is he thinks in terms of tests and demos
and not real world usage. What if to make a system easier to use it ends up
slowing it down some? What if adding a more appealing front end takes
resources that can slow it down? What about constraints where you only have so
much money and time to optimize?

Carroll recently pointed to this site, referring to it as a "real world" site:
https://fretwizz.wordpress.com

It is not. It is just a demo. He is trying to show how menus can be put on
sidebars, a claim that literally has been questioned by nobody. He spend time
to make a demo that provides literally no value to anyone for anything, just
to see if he could do it (and it is not surprising he can). Nothing wrong with
him tinkering and learning, but that is not at all the same as working toward
getting content up.

He uses the tech to see what he can do with the tech, as opposed to real-world
sites where people use the tech to accomplish a goal outside of the tech.

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 12:18:31 PM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<sd9ru7$lf8$2...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

If you are to be believed: you.

You go out of your way to misrepresent what I say, saying it is fine for you
to point to things such as this:

https://fretwizz.wordpress.com

And claim that is a "real site" and not just a demo. Nope. You were working to
see if you could get a menu on the sidebar, a task nobody suggested would be
challenging. Nothing wrong with you doing it, but it is not the same as using
the tech to make a site for the sharing of information. You use tech to see
what the tech can do... tests and demos. Others use websites and other tech to
speak about their businesses, or share silly humor, or to otherwise get a
message about something other than the tech out.

Your demos are great -- but let us not pretend this means you little tests are
"real world" work.

[%]

this looks like two computers facing each other ,
that have argue programs inside that are ,
activated by the command , fight or for protection sake C:/fight

[Steve Carroll]

On 2021-07-21, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jul 21, 2021 at 7:46:39 AM MST, "chrisv" wrote
><rdcgfgpb0mkknj6om...@4ax.com>:
>
>> Steve Carroll wrote:
>>
>>> That gallery gizmo I wrote to show hh is doing something, it sorts
>>> images that will be shown based on selections that are made and I assure
>>> you there is definitely a speed component to it.
>>>
>>> <https://i.ibb.co/wB8w4Mf/gallery-demo.png>
>>>
>>> There are 10,000 JS objects, representing as many faux images, in this
>>> collection. I could make it run miserably slow if I wanted, to the
>>> point where most would consider it unusable. As it is, the 10,000
>>> objects get constructed in the blink of an eye, the window can't keep
>>> up, obviously, it's limited by the browser's ability to render. The
>>> point is... the JS isn't the bottleneck.
>>
>> Did you need to test your JavaScript, to make sure that it worked as
>> expected, dipshit?
>
> Carroll is not wrong that speed matters -- a claim nobody is suggesting
> otherwise.

"The speed is so much _not_ an issue, it's ridiculous; yet that's all

you guys ever talk about: Speed." Jeff Relf

I'd say that's more than a mere 'suggestion' (sober up).

(snip 'psych degree' BS)

> Carroll recently pointed to this site, referring to it as a "real world" site:
> https://fretwizz.wordpress.com
>
> It is not. It is just a demo.

And demos are never better than "real-world" sites in any way?

How many times did they drop you down the stairs, Snit ;)

(snip more 'psych degree' BS)

[pothead]

His replies are often so convoluted that it's damn near impossible to
figure out what he is speaking about.
Sometimes I wonder if snit is replying to the wrong thread because he
makes no sense at all.
Other times he seems to reply to people who have him binned which makes
no sense at all.
So IOW snit is the typical uber troll looking to get a rise out of
anyone he can lure into his circus.

At least in COLA his traction is almost nil.
And that is how it should be.

[pothead]

no , everything should be how i say , why should you get to say ,
rookie usenetters , going to tell everyone how it should be

[Steve Carroll]

Right, like it's not obvious what your goal is <eyeroll>. Sorry, I won't
give you the ability to harass innocent people. I wouldn't even if you
thought of a far less idiotic method than this.

> saying it is fine for you
> to point to things such as this:
>
> https://fretwizz.wordpress.com
>
> And claim that is a "real site" and not just a demo.

It's a "real-world" demo site. It's a "site", it's "real" and it's in the
"world", that it's a demo doesn't change any of these facts.

> Nope. You were working to
> see if you could get a menu on the sidebar

Working to see? LOL! On a WP site no one has to 'work' to create a
sidebar menu. Now it's becoming clear why you write the goofy stuff you
do ;)

> Your demos are great

That site above isn't "great", it's just an *extremely* simple site that
anyone who can read can build in a short period of time (and no dev
skills required... as you know I have access to nothing on that site in
the way of CSS or JS).

> -- but let us not pretend this means you little tests are
> "real world" work.

Translation: Snit is 'doing what he does' with his 'psych degree'... AGAIN.

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 12:30:04 PM MST, "%" wrote
<BoCdnTdu88Ve6GX9...@giganews.com>:

Can you rewrite that as a haiku?

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 12:35:10 PM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<sd9ste$lf8$4...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

> On 2021-07-21, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 21, 2021 at 7:46:39 AM MST, "chrisv" wrote
>> <rdcgfgpb0mkknj6om...@4ax.com>:
>>
>>> Steve Carroll wrote:
>>>
>>>> That gallery gizmo I wrote to show hh is doing something, it sorts
>>>> images that will be shown based on selections that are made and I assure
>>>> you there is definitely a speed component to it.
>>>>
>>>> <https://i.ibb.co/wB8w4Mf/gallery-demo.png>
>>>>
>>>> There are 10,000 JS objects, representing as many faux images, in this
>>>> collection. I could make it run miserably slow if I wanted, to the
>>>> point where most would consider it unusable. As it is, the 10,000
>>>> objects get constructed in the blink of an eye, the window can't keep
>>>> up, obviously, it's limited by the browser's ability to render. The
>>>> point is... the JS isn't the bottleneck.
>>>
>>> Did you need to test your JavaScript, to make sure that it worked as
>>> expected, dipshit?
>>
>> Carroll is not wrong that speed matters -- a claim nobody is suggesting
>> otherwise.
>
> "The speed is so much _not_ an issue,

It is one issue. But there are tradeoffs in the real world. Real world work
and demos are not the same thing.

>
>> Carroll recently pointed to this site, referring to it as a "real world" site:
>> https://fretwizz.wordpress.com
>>
>> It is not. It is just a demo.
>
> And demos are never better than "real-world" sites in any way?

Given how they do not have the same tradeoffs that can be much better in
specific areas. That is the big picture here you keep missing. The sad thing
is you try to push this as though I am saying otherwise -- you really just
cannot get the point.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2021-07-21, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 21, 2021 at 12:35:10 PM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
><sd9ste$lf8$4...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:
>
>> On 2021-07-21, Snit <brock.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Jul 21, 2021 at 7:46:39 AM MST, "chrisv" wrote
>>> <rdcgfgpb0mkknj6om...@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>> Steve Carroll wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That gallery gizmo I wrote to show hh is doing something, it sorts
>>>>> images that will be shown based on selections that are made and I assure
>>>>> you there is definitely a speed component to it.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://i.ibb.co/wB8w4Mf/gallery-demo.png>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are 10,000 JS objects, representing as many faux images, in this
>>>>> collection. I could make it run miserably slow if I wanted, to the
>>>>> point where most would consider it unusable. As it is, the 10,000
>>>>> objects get constructed in the blink of an eye, the window can't keep
>>>>> up, obviously, it's limited by the browser's ability to render. The
>>>>> point is... the JS isn't the bottleneck.
>>>>
>>>> Did you need to test your JavaScript, to make sure that it worked as
>>>> expected, dipshit?
>>>
>>> Carroll is not wrong that speed matters -- a claim nobody is suggesting
>>> otherwise.
>>
>> "The speed is so much _not_ an issue,
>
> It is one issue.

(murmured Snit, fresh off a post he wrote where he claimed no one
suggested anything regarding if "speed matters", or not).

"Carroll is not wrong that speed matters -- a claim nobody is suggesting

otherwise." some overmedicated loon named Michael Glasser

(snip crap)

[%]

probably not

[%]

he got his easier than i got mine

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 12:45:58 PM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<sd9thm$lf8$5...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is similar to what I have been telling Carroll. He has skills -- I
>>>>>> commend him for them -- but his work is about showing the work, or showing he
>>>>>> can do it. He has pretty much nothing where he is using the tools he learns to
>>>>>> get other work done. It is like using a word processor to show what a word
>>>>>> processor can do -- there is absolutely a time for that, but if you are not
>>>>>> using the word processor to write what is the point? Carroll makes demos, even
>>>>>> impressive ones, but if he is just using the tech to show what he can do --
>>>>>> and generally even then just to try to impress those he feels inferior to --
>>>>>> what is the point?
>>>>>
>>>>> Translation:
>>>>
>>>> None needed. I speak for me.
>>>
>>> Who *isn't* aware of the message you send with the above?
>>>
>> If you are to be believed: you.
>>
>> You go out of your way to misrepresent what I say,
>
> Right,

So please stop. You say you do it to yank chains and to try to catch people
falling for your lies and other nonsense. I prefer having conversations in
good faith.

> like it's not obvious what your goal is <eyeroll>.

You fear people will do to you what you have done to others... attack your
clients. You live in fear of others being like you.

>
>> saying it is fine for you
>> to point to things such as this:
>>
>> https://fretwizz.wordpress.com
>>
>> And claim that is a "real site" and not just a demo.
>
> It's a "real-world" demo site.

LOL! It is a demo where your stated goal was to see if you could get the menu
on the left, a goal nobody suggested would be challenging (yourself included).
It was not a site made to show content unrelated to the site you wanted to
share with the world, the site was about the site itself.

That is the type work you do -- and you do impressive work with it (far more
impressive than your site here). But it is very different than dealing with
the real world constraints of sites. You show you do not get what that even
means. Just a few minutes ago you posted:

<sd9ste$lf8$4...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>
-----

> Carroll recently pointed to this site, referring to it as a
> "real world" site:
>
> https://fretwizz.wordpress.com
>
> It is not. It is just a demo.

And demos are never better than "real-world" sites in any way?

-----
You not only miss the point, you get it completely backward. Of course demos
can be better on what they are focusing on. If you have a car made to go fast,
and you give up all the real world tradeoffs of safety and comfort and price,
you can make it go MUCH faster. If you focus instead on safety you can make it
much safer. You can focus on specific areas to test and demo and make them be
much better than what you have in a real-world product people actually use.

There is value in making such demos, but they are not the same as making
actual real-world products.

> It's a "site", it's "real" and it's in the
> "world", that it's a demo doesn't change any of these facts.
>
>> Nope. You were working to

>> see if you could get a menu on the sidebar, a task nobody suggested would be
>> challenging.

> Working to see?
> LOL! On a WP site no one has to 'work' to create a
> sidebar menu.

Hence my noting "a task nobody suggested would be challenging". That, though,
as far as I know was your only stated goal. Did you have others?

Please do not say it was about you wanting to AGAIN compare yourself to me. I
do not get your need for that.

>
>> Your demos are great -- but let us not pretend this means you little tests are

>> "real world" work.

> That site above isn't "great", it's just an *extremely* simple site that
> anyone who can read can build in a short period of time (and no dev
> skills required... as you know I have access to nothing on that site in
> the way of CSS or JS).

Carroll <scpuag$2o2$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:
-----
The "time" to change 'mouseover' to 'click' is a couple of
seconds.
-----

Now you realize some of the tradeoffs of using such a site -- you cannot do
what you suggested I do. That is good: you are at least beginning to
understand a bit of what I have been telling you about tradeoffs.

Next maybe you can show you understand my being able to use a GUI to make a
tooltip does not back your narrative about me hiding my JavaScript knowledge.
I did what is shown here: <https://youtu.be/vIF457hQkE0> and you insisted:

Carroll <sd552i$d85$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:
-----
[Apd]
>> I think you'll find I helped with some programming
>> topics.

[Snit]
> With some of the questions I had on AZ and on how to use
> JavaScript to click a button. Thank you for both.

Right, because you had *no* idea how it worked despite doing it on
your 'business' site (and what about your medicated cursors?)
<eyeroll>.
-----

You never did say if you realized how much off track you went there.

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 1:04:10 PM MST, "%" wrote
<wMWdnZJJnuJd4GX9...@giganews.com>:

Can you at least try? Maybe ask a bear to help you.

[%]

i don't know what they are so i'm not doing it

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 1:05:06 PM MST, "%" wrote
<wMWdnY1JnuJl4GX9...@giganews.com>:

Did you get to introduce Chicken Centered therapy? I did not... but a friend
did present it and give me credit for it at a conference.

His focus was on how novelty / surprise and things outside of what you would
expect help to build memory and understanding. I suggested he start his talk
as if he was presenting a new modality, instead of client-centered or
therapist-centered have it be chicken-centered. He did.

And years later I and others who were there remember that talk and few others.
It worked! :)

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 1:01:49 PM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<sd9ufd$ho4$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

>>>> Carroll is not wrong that speed matters -- a claim nobody is suggesting
>>>> otherwise.
>>>
>>> "The speed is so much _not_ an issue,
>>

>> It is one issue. But there are tradeoffs in the real world. Real world work
>> and demos are not the same thing.

> (murmured Snit, fresh off a post he wrote where he claimed no one
> suggested anything regarding if "speed matters", or not).
>
> "Carroll is not wrong that speed matters -- a claim nobody is suggesting
> otherwise." some overmedicated loon named Michael Glasser
>

I am not saying speed does not matter.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
<sd9ste$lf8$4...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>
-----

> Carroll recently pointed to this site, referring to it as a
> "real world" site:
>
> https://fretwizz.wordpress.com
>
> It is not. It is just a demo.

And demos are never better than "real-world" sites in any way?

-----
You not only miss the point, you get it completely backward. Of course demos
can be better on what they are focusing on. If you have a car made to go fast,
and you give up all the real world tradeoffs of safety and comfort and price,
you can make it go MUCH faster. If you focus instead on safety you can make it
much safer. You can focus on specific areas to test and demo and make them be
much better than what you have in a real-world product people actually use.

There is value in making such demos, but they are not the same as making
actual real-world products.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 1:12:35 PM MST, "%" wrote
<wMWdnY5JnuIk4mX9...@giganews.com>:

You could use this: https://www.poem-generator.org.uk/haiku/

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

You (ChrisV) replied ( to Steve ):
> > The gallery gizmo I wrote [ for hh ],
> > sorts images that will be shown based on selections.

>
> Did you need to test your JavaScript,
> to make sure that it worked as expected, dipshit ?

"Warnings" were the _only_ criteria by which you judged my code,
dipshit. We continually call you out on it, dipshit.

> > I assure you [Jeff] there is definitely a speed component to it.

No one buys an app just because it's fast.

The fastest app does nothing.

[%]

i could just leave it the way it is and let you do it

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 2:05:32 PM MST, "%" wrote
<EKidna40kOK-EWX9...@giganews.com>:

I don't know how.

[anonlinuxuser]

On 7/20/21 4:39 PM, Steve Carroll wrote:
> On 2021-07-20, F Russell <f...@random.info> wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 21:12:02 +0000, Steve Carroll wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Speed does matter with web based apps.
>>>
>>
>> Sorry, asshole.
>>
>> Web sites
>
> ... are not apps.
>

True. The web site, if it is designed properly, relies on speed of
execution and also user response. Too slow and the user will go some
where else.

[%]

https://www.poem-generator.org.uk/haiku/

[Steve Carroll]

When there are two web apps that do the same thing, the one that is
faster is so generally because the code is more efficient and it'll
beat out the slower app every time.

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 2:43:51 PM MST, "anonlinuxuser" wrote
<sda4en$qsd$1...@dont-email.me>:

I do not think anyone is suggesting speed is not a factor. What is being noted
is speed is not the ONLY factor.

If you have a car made to go fast, and you give up all the real world
tradeoffs of safety and comfort and price, you can make it go MUCH faster. If
you focus instead on safety you can make it much safer. You can focus on
specific areas to test and demo and make them be much better than what you
have in a real-world product people actually use.

There is value in making such demos, but they are not the same as making
actual real-world products.

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 2:46:54 PM MST, "%" wrote
<27-dnZX1Y8BICGX9...@giganews.com>:

Cool site. Where did you find it?

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 3:01:40 PM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<sda5g4$1as$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

If all else is equal faster is (generally) better. Sure. But nobody is saying
otherwise. What is being noted is it is not the ONLY consideration. This has
been covered in an example shown to you before:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Carroll <sd9ste$lf8$4...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>
-----

> Carroll recently pointed to this site, referring to it as a
> "real world" site:
>
> https://fretwizz.wordpress.com
>
> It is not. It is just a demo.

And demos are never better than "real-world" sites in any way?
-----
You not only miss the point, you get it completely backward. Of course demos

can be better on what they are focusing on. If you have a car made to go fast,

and you give up all the real world tradeoffs of safety and comfort and price,
you can make it go MUCH faster. If you focus instead on safety you can make it
much safer. You can focus on specific areas to test and demo and make them be
much better than what you have in a real-world product people actually use.

There is value in making such demos, but they are not the same as making
actual real-world products.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You snip such content to try to twist what is said to how speed is not the
ONLY consideration to someone (you don't say who) pushing the idea that speed
somehow does not matter at all. You simply are not getting the point. Your
focus on demos and tests is not the same as making real world products.

[F Russell]

On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 22:01:40 +0000, Steve Carroll wrote:

>
> When there are two web apps ...
>

Web "app." Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

Who the fuck uses web "apps" other than grandmothers and
other brain-dead assholes?

Don't forget that the web was never intended to run "apps."
Only grubbing corps introduced, or forced, this ugly apparition
into an otherwise beautiful medium of exchange.

This is a GNU/Linux forum. This is a forum for personal computing
at the highest level. Take your web "apps" where they belong -- into
the nearest dumpster.


--

Systemd free. D.E. free.

Always and forever.

[%]

oh you know some place in usenet somewhere

[F Russell]

On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 23:49:47 -0600, rbowman wrote:

>
> A lot of GIS operations are like that. You fire up the software and go
> away for the weekend and hope nothing blows up.
>

Shoot! When I was a grad student I wrote simulations that required
THREE FUCKING WEEKS of run time.

I was always afraid that the over-night janitorial staff would disturb
the machine and so I surrounded them with warning signs: KEEP
YOUR MUTHERFUCKING HANDS OFF!

Of course, a simple power failure would have necessitated going
back to square one.

[Steve Carroll]

On 2021-07-21, F Russell <f...@random.info> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 22:01:40 +0000, Steve Carroll wrote:
>
>>
>> When there are two web apps ...
>>
>
> Web "app." Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
>
> Who the fuck uses web "apps"

You do, I do, we all do.

> Don't forget that the web was never intended to run "apps."

And wheels were invented prior to the automobile, wheels that could
never have been used very effectively on an automobile.

[%]

dupa

[F Russell]

On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 23:06:34 +0000, Steve Carroll wrote:

>>
>> Who the fuck uses web "apps"
>
> You do, I do, we all do.
>

I use them only if forced by incompetent idiots (like you).

Case in point:

My personal domain and web site are located on a Linux
hosting service that provides an "app" called CPanel for
general administration and maintenance. But like all web
"apps" CPanel is sluggish and overall is good for shit.
Using their alternative FTP interface I can accomplish tasks
far more efficiently.

CPanel is just another example of the stupidity and
ridiculousness of web "apps."

FTP is dead only for technical assholes like Dummy Carroll.

[chrisv]

Jeff-Relf.Me @. wrote:

>You (ChrisV) replied ( to Steve ):
>> > The gallery gizmo I wrote [ for hh ],
>> > sorts images that will be shown based on selections.
>>
>> Did you need to test your JavaScript,
>> to make sure that it worked as expected, dipshit ?
>
>"Warnings" were the _only_ criteria by which you judged my code,
>dipshit.

Stop lying.

> (further idiocy snipped)

--
'Not "some".... just "compiler warnings", without qualifiers, meaning
"ALL" compiler warnings.' - "Steve Carroll", lying shamelessly

[Steve Carroll]

On 2021-07-21, F Russell <f...@random.info> wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 23:06:34 +0000, Steve Carroll wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Who the fuck uses web "apps"
>>
>> You do, I do, we all do.
>>
>
> I use them only if forced by incompetent idiots (like you).

And a gun is held to your head each time <eyeroll>.

DFS isn't around so I'll fill in for him...

Out of one side of your pie hole:

Who the f*ck uses web "apps"

The other side:

I do

> Case in point:

You don't have a point, you use them when you need them.

> My personal domain and web site are located on a Linux
> hosting service that provides an "app" called CPanel for
> general administration and maintenance. But like all web
> "apps" CPanel is sluggish and overall is good for shit.
> Using their alternative FTP interface I can accomplish tasks
> far more efficiently.
>
> CPanel is just another example of the stupidity and
> ridiculousness of web "apps."
>
> FTP is dead only for technical assholes like Dummy Carroll.

FTP has issues with that thing you've whined about for ages: security

At least use FTPS or SFTP, like a REAL man would. Now go change your
skirt, you soaked right through it with all your pissing.

[Snit]

F Russell <f...@random.info> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 23:06:34 +0000, Steve Carroll wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Who the fuck uses web "apps"
>>
>> You do, I do, we all do.
>>
>
> I use them only if forced by incompetent idiots (like you).
>
> Case in point:
>
> My personal domain and web site are located on a Linux
> hosting service that provides an "app" called CPanel for
> general administration and maintenance. But like all web
> "apps" CPanel is sluggish and overall is good for shit.

It is pretty bad — but not all web apps are (though they have limits from
being on the web). It’s about trade offs.

Seems a common theme recently. :)

> Using their alternative FTP interface I can accomplish tasks
> far more efficiently.

I tend to use alternative method as well.

> CPanel is just another example of the stupidity and
> ridiculousness of web "apps."

It has pros and cons.

> FTP is dead only for technical assholes like Dummy Carroll.

FTP is grossly insecure. If you mean the related opinions with more
security then I’m with you on that.

[F Russell]

On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 23:38:32 +0000, Steve Carroll wrote:

>
> At least use FTPS or SFTP, like a REAL man would. Now go change your
> skirt, you soaked right through it with all your pissing.
>

You are attempting, as usual, to skirt the issue by invoking the totally
irrelevant idea of "security."

Sure, asshole. One can use rsh or ssh, ftp or sftp. But that is totally
beside the point.

The point is that web "apps" are trounced by the more fundamental
and traditional remote applications.

There is no need for web "apps" except for technical cripples
like you.

So eat shit and die, fucking pseudo-progressive loser.

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 4:38:32 PM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<sdab5o$2bq$1...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

>> FTP is dead only for technical assholes like Dummy Carroll.
>
> FTP has issues with that thing you've whined about for ages: security
>
> At least use FTPS or SFTP, like a REAL man would.

Judging someone's masculinity based on that is absurd.

[Snit]

On Jul 21, 2021 at 4:06:34 PM MST, "Steve Carroll" wrote
<sda99q$het$4...@fretwizzer.eternal-september.org>:

> On 2021-07-21, F Russell <f...@random.info> wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 22:01:40 +0000, Steve Carroll wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> When there are two web apps ...
>>>
>>
>> Web "app." Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
>>
>> Who the fuck uses web "apps"
>
> You do, I do, we all do.

And they are another good example of tradeoffs. I have shown this in terms of
Apple's Pages, where the options there -- while good -- are limited compared
to the desktop app. Still, for the features I looked at the open source
solution (LibreOffice) was limited even more, which is likely not something F
Russell would like to hear. :)

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

A good app is adequately fast.

Per se, a fast app is _nothing_.

[rbowman]

We're more polite. The signs say 'DO NOT TURN OFF'. The front office
types finally gave up and no programming machines are ever turned off
intentionally with most on UPS. Of course UPS batteries don't last
forever and a UPS with a bad battery is worse than being plugged into
the wall.

[DFS]

On 7/21/2021 6:56 PM, F Russell wrote:

> personal computing at the highest level.

User-Agent: Pan/0.147


Good one, GUI idiot!

[Steve Carroll]

On 2021-07-21, F Russell <f...@random.info> wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Jul 2021 23:38:32 +0000, Steve Carroll wrote:
>
>>
>> At least use FTPS or SFTP, like a REAL man would. Now go change your
>> skirt, you soaked right through it with all your pissing.
>>
>
> You are attempting, as usual, to skirt the issue by invoking the totally
> irrelevant idea of "security."

LOL! Security is only relevant when you need it to be, right?

> The point is that web "apps" are trounced by the more fundamental
> and traditional remote applications.

And water is wet.

> There is no need for web "apps" except for

... when even you need one.

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 20-07-2021, Branimir Maksimovic <branimir....@gmail.com> a écrit :
> On 2021-07-20, Jeff-Relf.Me @. <Jeff-Relf.Me@> wrote:
>> You (Maksimovic) replied ( to me ):
>>> > { LoopBacPP( Ln, fpLines ) { PP++ ;
>>> > gOff: Bac( >= 5, gOn )
>>> > gOn: Bac( <= 2, gOff ) On＠ = Big＠ ; } }
>>>
>>> Jeff, that code is unreadable...
>>
>> Yet C++ professionals _have_ modified my code,
>> bitching and moaning all the way.
> That code is readonly,

I'd say write only.

> can't be modified...

Exactly.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 20-07-2021, Jeff-Relf.Me @. <Jeff-Relf.Me@> a écrit :
> You (Maksimovic) replied ( to me ):

>> > I'm not drawing cartoons for Little girls.
>> >
>> > UnLike you, I'm about the results, the app,
>> > not how _fast_ it runs,
>> > nor how _easy_ the C++ source code is to read.
>>
>> I bet no one pay you for that :P
>
> Not only was _I_ paid,

Forgive them, they don't know what they are doing.

> others were also paid to modify my source code.

Asking that to anyone should be considered a war crime.

> People come her from all over the world to _not_ work.

Not working is one thing. Torturing others is something you shouldn't be
proud of.

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

You (Stéphane) replied ( to Maksimovic ):
> > [Relf's] code can't be modified.
>
> Exactly.

Except that I do it easily, all the time; see:

http://Jeff-Relf.Me/Diff.PNG
http://Jeff-Relf.Me/X.ZIP

In the past, others have modified my code.

No one is asking _you_ to modify my code;
so there's no reason to bitch & moan about it.

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 21-07-2021, Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none> a écrit :
> obviously, it's limited by the browser's ability to render. The
> point is... the JS isn't the bottleneck.

It's exactly why JS is the bottleneck. The devs don't care anymore
because the work is sent to the browser. So the server is OK, and it's
the user's fault if the application is unusable.

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

You (Stéphane) replied ( to me ):

> > Not only was _I_ paid,
>
> Forgive them, they don't know what they are doing.

...you told yourself, looking in the mirror.

> > others were also paid to modify my source code.
>
> Asking that to anyone should be considered a war crime.

It's not your "problem", don't worry about it.

Here, people only care about "speed"
( How fast can you reach nowhere ⁉ ),
3rd grade readability, & compiler warnings.

> > People come here from all over the world to _not_ work.

>
> Not working is one thing.
> Torturing others is something you shouldn't be proud of.

UnLike you, 3rd graders aren't my audience.

I'm about to get paid another five grand, to not work.

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

Google Chrome hates me because I'm in control of the JavaScript+CSS, &
that simply won't do if you must _force_ products on people.

Steve claims I'll be defeated in my efforts to control what I see.

I say he's wrong... I will retain control.

[%]

i don't see why not i certainly have it over you

[Steve Carroll]

On 2021-07-23, Stéphane CARPENTIER <s...@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
> Le 21-07-2021, Steve Carroll <"Steve Carroll"@noSPAM.none> a écrit :
>> obviously, it's limited by the browser's ability to render. The
>> point is... the JS isn't the bottleneck.
>
> It's exactly why JS is the bottleneck.

Not on the code of mine that I was talking about here.

> The devs don't care anymore because the work is sent to the browser.

Devs generally do what they're paid to do. If they tell the site's owner
that it'll take x amount of time to include every version of every
browser (read: a boatload of branching) and the owner decides it's not
worth it to do so, that's not on the devs. It's easy to say: damn devs!
No one ever says: damn site owner!

> So the server is OK, and it's the user's fault if the application is
> unusable.

I realize there's a lot of lame JS out there but some of it is lame due
to how slow it is (mainly due to unnecessary bloat). When it comes to
webpage speed, the 'fastest' isn't always the most important thing but
'fast enough' is very important, no matter what you're trying to
deliver.

[Steve Carroll]

Unless you find an extension or write one yourself, it'll be a tough row
to hoe. I know it can be done but it'd be a lot more painful.

[Jeff-Relf.Me]

You (Steve) replied ( to me ):

> > Steve claims I'll be defeated in my efforts to control what I see.
> > I say he's wrong... I will retain control.
>
> Unless you find an extension or write one yourself,
> it'll be a tough row to hoe.
> I know it can be done but it'd be a lot more painful.

Not only can it be done, it will be done, &
I'll enjoy every minute of it !

I control FireFox's URL_Bar/SearchBar/BookMarks:

Jeff-Relf.Me/FireFoxChromeSearch.PNG
Jeff-Relf.Me/userChrome.CSS.TXT

I control how WebPages look:

Jeff-Relf.Me/ZeroHedge.PNG
Jeff-Relf.Me/ZeroHedge2.PNG
Jeff-Relf.Me/userContent.CSS.TXT

[Snit / Snot]

Carroll, 4/10/2015 4:04 PM:
-----
Cute trick... To the guy who hacked my Google account.
-----
No details. Seems to treat it as a joke.

Carroll, 4/10/2015 5:02 PM, <https://goo.gl/51rsmZ>:
-----
Email Hacking Is A Serious Crime
-----
No longer "cute"... now it is a serious crime. OK.

Carroll, 4/10/2015 5:07 PM:
By now he is posting more links to how serious this crime against him
is.

Carroll, 4/10/2015 7:25 PM:
-----
I didn't write that.
-----
Now he is denying the posts from his own account. OK, he was "hacked".
Someone else posted this. Hard to hack a gmail account given how they
use two-step authentication and someone would need access to his phone
or the like... but at least POSSIBLE.

Even then, though, if someone tries to guess your password Google alerts
you and lets you know what IP address and other info. I know because
someone in a Denver internet cafe has tried mine on several occasions.

Google even forces you to change your password when this happens. Very
hard to hack these days.

So already Carroll's story is unlikely.

But let us accept it... someone somehow hacked his account bypassing
the two step verification. This person did not, however, change his password
and Carroll posted within an hour of the "hacker". Before that, unless
he is an idiot, he changed his password and the "hacker" was locked out.
The "hacker" got one post in.

But Carroll could not leave his story there.

Carroll, 4/10/2015 8:36 PM, <https://goo.gl/NJ2bMH>:
-----
Someone hacked my frelwizzen gmail acct so, for the time being,
don't trust anything from it.
-----
Wait. What? Even after Carroll figured out this "hacker" who was too
stupid to change his password had broken into his account and Carroll
*surely* must have changed his own password, he is saying the "hacker"
might still have access. Might be able to break Google's two-step verification
process *again*.

This is *very* unlikely... to the point of being unbelievable.

Even worse for him: he notes which of his accounts he is claiming was
hacked - but in the past he has denied even using the other accounts!
LOL! He screwed up and made it very clear he has multiple accounts and
felt the need to note which one. He made the same mistake in the next
quote where he speaks of WHICH of his gmail accounts he is claiming was
hacked. Oops! If he only posts with one there would be no need to specify
which one!

He has completely screwed up in his game to pretend he posts with only
one gmail account. Completely idiotic of him, too!

Carroll, 4/10/2015 8:38 PM, <https://goo.gl/YA7gMO>:
-----
Some mentally deficient child hacked my 'frelwizzen' gmail account
so I may have to kill it. For the time being, don't assume
anything that's coming from it was written by me.
-----
He is still saying that he may have to kill the account instead of just
changing the password which anyone with half a brain would have already
done (and Google *forces* you to do when someone even tries to hack your
account... I know because someone in the Denver area has tried to hack
mine multiple times... likely Carroll but I have no proof of this). And
he specifies WHICH of his accounts! He is directly admitting he uses
more than one account! His claim of being "forged" with his second account
is a lie. Proved.

Carroll, 4/10/2015 8:40 PM, <https://goo.gl/j6yCuV>:
-----
Looks like it's still being hacked despite me taking precautions,
I may have to kill the account.
-----
What makes it look like its still being hacked? And what precautions
other than changing the two-step verification options does he need? And
how would someone bypass this... is he really on the NSA watch list?
Seems you would need someone at that level to be doing this. He watches
too much TV where they computer hackers spend thirty seconds and bypass
all security.

Just nonsense.

Carroll, 4/11/2015 12:05 PM: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/comp.os.linux.advocacy/5QXJHXq8d1k/ujK_-
8ZYUnwJ
-----
Apparently Google is having issues with their accounts to the
point where they're ready to undertake some additional measures.
-----
But, of course, no evidence of this... and what measures? They already
alert users if someone else tries to guess your password and use two-
step authentication and even force you to make a new password if it seems
someone is trying to hack you.
-----
They're now involving several federal agencies in things they
didn't bother with previously in an effort to deal with people who
hack into accounts. They've asked me to leave the account open.
-----
So now Google is letting Carroll know how they are handling these things
- and asking him to leave a *hacked* account open... one someone can
be using to steal his identity. No. This does not pass the sniff test
in any way. Even if they were doing this for some bizarre sting operation,
which is in itself far fetched, they would have told Carroll to not make
it public information so the hacker would not know.

Just insanity. His own story is so idiotic and full of idiotic claims
it simply cannot be true. Carroll uses his secondary Google account -
the one he accesses via Tor and is referred to as his Tor account -
to have plausible deniability for things he says there. Now he is working
to do the same thing with his main account. Maybe Carroll read a report
like this: <http://cnnmon.ie/111QeT8> [money.com]. If so he missed the
part where they note if you are *really* hacked, which is rare, the hackers
change your password and lock you out. Why would they not?
-----
There's some new legislation that will help them deal with this
issue... which probably means more BS for us ;)
-----
Yes, new legislation to make sure Carroll does not have to deal with
"hackers" and "forgers" which do not even exist.

The funny part is, this happened shortly after someone in the Denver
area, likely Carroll, tried to guess *my* passwords and they did it from
an Internet café (Google tells you the IP and that can be used to trace
back).

My guess: Carroll is the one who was working to guess my password and
figured this new lie of his was a good way to deny his own words even
more than he does with his Tor account *and* a way to make it so if I
had talked about him trying to hack my account he could say I was just
copying his comments. "Proving" I read his posts... which for now I am
to see how absurd his lies are. :)

Carroll, 4/11/2015 12:25 PM:
-----
The person who hacked into my Gmail acct. changed the wording on
this post. I've removed the others but Google asked me to leave
one standing for some odd reason.
-----
Here Carroll claims the hacker changed the wording on a post of his
from *before* he had even claimed he was hacked. So this hacker not only
can *post* for him but edit his old Usenet posts.

I call utter bullshit on this. Out and out lie from Carroll. And then
Carroll says Google asked him to not delete these "hacked" posts... this
is nonsense. Why would Google want him to leave forged posts in the public
and why would Google not just keep their own copy? Even Carroll notes
it is for "some odd reason" - yeah, because Carroll is telling stories
that make *no* sense at all.

Carroll is lying. Maybe there is some kernel of truth to his stories?
Even if so - and frankly it is unlikely he will ever show any evidence
to back his claims - the details he is posting are absurd.

Carroll, 4/11/2015 2:10 PM:
-----
And he's so high he thinks people still have to manually enter all
their passwords in whenever they want to use anything that's been
password protected ;)
-----
Nobody had suggested, hinted, implied, or said anything like what Carroll
says they did.

Maybe his story will be someone stole his laptop (or mobile device)
and he had his passwords saved? If so why not have the device deactivated
remotely? Why has he not said anything about this?

My guess: he realizes he screwed up when trying to guess my passwords
and is now building a story so he can say his computer was stolen and
it was not him. Or, LOL, maybe someone broke into his house and did it.

This unknown hacker knew he was obsessed with me and carried on acting
like him. Makes complete sense, eh?

Carroll, 4/12/2015 8:45 AM, <https://goo.gl/KMf4pa>:
-----
The first one, that has since been deleted. My bad for having such
a feeble password on this account.
-----
Now he suggests it was merely from someone guessing his password - which
contradicts his above insinuations that it could have been from a saved
password on a device he had.

His story changes with the telling.

But as noted, when someone tries to guess your password Google has ways
to deal with it. I know - Carroll or someone in his neck of the woods
recently tried it with me.

Carroll, 4/12/2015 9:29 AM:
-----
The account in question here is a gmail account. Contrary to
Snit's delusions, I have no idea what a TOR account looks like but
it's a good bet it doesn't bear much of a resemblance to a gmail
account.
-----
Here Carroll plays stupid and pretends that if when he or anyone uses
the Tor browser *Carroll* pointed to this somehow changes the way the
gmail interface looks. Um, no. Worse it might do is make Google think
you are in another country and you would have to set it back to English.
But the basic look stays the same.

He is playing stupid and pretending to not know how the Tor browser
he pointed to works. Just idiotic of him.
-----
That idiocy aside, I love how Snit has repeatedly, for years,
feigned ignorance about gmail accounts, yet, he keeps disclosing
info that proves he knows about them. Some fools do stuff like
this when they believe people are as stupid as the fool needs them
to be ;)
-----
I do not think Google would allow you to edit your Usenet / groups posts
but I do not use it much and do not know for sure. Seems absurd that
they would... and others have now said they do not. But given how I do
not use Google Groups for posting why would I know the details of their
system for certain?

Carroll, 6/16/2015 8:47 PM:
-----
Your obsession with me is insane. Working with Google I now have
proof you and ebot worked together to hack me. Clever. If I press
charges against you I have to also include her so you remain safe
for now.

Do not think this is over.
-----

No evidence of working with Google on this (and all out and out lies).
Carroll is making public threats based on lies.

Carroll, 6/16/2015 8:50 PM:
-----
I promised COLA your trolling days were over so you contacted ebot
and worked with her to hack my account. I might not be able to get
your ass handed to you in court over this but wait until your boss
at Yavapai College contacts you.

Maybe you should make that call first. Ask about your comments on
incest.

See if those can not be quoted.
-----

Direct lies and threats by Carroll.

Carroll, 6/16/2015 8:51 PM:
-----
You went too far this time Snit. We have trolled each other for
years but to contact ebot and get her to help you hack my account
was over a line.
-----

A complete and utter lie from Carroll.

Carroll, 6/16/2015 8:52 PM:
-----
The above post is Snit hacking my account.
-----
A complete and utter lie... more false accusations from him.

Carroll, 6/16/2015 8:53 PM:
-----
You edited those posts when you hacked my account. Do not trust
anything from my frelwizzen account now that Snit and ebot have
access to it.
-----
More unsupported claims and attacks by Carroll.

Carroll, 4/16/2015 8:56 PM:
-----
Working with Google I now have proof Snit and ebot hacked the
account. Many of the older posts were edited. You can see evidence
of this by Snit pointing to "old" posts which have been modified
to
say I claimed I was his "personal newsgroup rapist", a phrase I
have never used.
-----

No evidence of Carroll working with Google. No evidence of any older
posts being edited.

-
"You'll notice how quickly he loses interest when everything is about
him. He clearly wants the attention"
Steve Carroll, making the dumbest comment ever uttered.

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 23-07-2021, Jeff-Relf.Me @. <Jeff-Relf.Me@> a écrit :
>
> I'm about to get paid another five grand, to not work.

Sometimes, I could give money to people to not sing.