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WSL is a gimmick, but ...

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Joel

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Nov 26, 2022, 9:39:04 PM11/26/22
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I did succeed in launching a GUI Linux app:

https://i.imgur.com/nsht3es.png

--
Joel Crump

DFS

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Nov 27, 2022, 8:56:26 AM11/27/22
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On 11/26/2022 9:39 PM, Joel wrote:

> I did succeed in launching a GUI Linux app:
>
> https://i.imgur.com/nsht3es.png


You probably know MS used to sell a popular Unix version called Xenix.
My guess is Gates drove that, as he really was a techie from the beginning.

The wiki article on Xenix is interesting. According to a link there, MS
used to think Unix would be their OS of the future

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix

Aside: for 30 years a gaggle of geeks has been claiming Linux is the OS
of the future... but that's for another post.


Also, this 1995 discussion on comp.os.os2.announce (I believe) is VERY
interesting:

https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.ms-windows.misc/c/-iNeep60eVE/m/Xl5ddAtJENcJ


Back to WSL: MS has had a POSIX or Unix or [now] Linux environment
available for Windows for 29 years. So not a gimmick. It's a full
Linux kernel you can compile yourself if you want.

I think WSL/2 is fairly popular, as there are a good amount of questions
and answers about it out there. If nothing else, it's fun to play with
from time to time.

MS has done a good job making WSL easy to use, very speedy, and mostly
stable.




rbowman

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Nov 27, 2022, 12:00:21 PM11/27/22
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On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 08:56:22 -0500, DFS wrote:


> Back to WSL: MS has had a POSIX or Unix or [now] Linux environment
> available for Windows for 29 years. So not a gimmick. It's a full
> Linux kernel you can compile yourself if you want.

Sort of...

https://brianreiter.org/2010/08/24/the-sad-history-of-the-microsoft-posix-
subsystem/

I think there are still some makefiles that haven't been cleaned up and
still mention Interix. It was flaky. The code had originally been
developed on AIX, IBM's Unix, that ran on RS/6000 servers and
workstations. Y2K was a watershed. IBM patched the OS but it wouldn't run
on older hardware. As sites looked at replacing the hardware and compared
it to i86 boxes running Windows IBM suddenly was out of the game.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKS_Toolkit

We used NutCRACKER to port the suite to Windows. It was similar to Cygwin
but commercial which avoided any GPL gymnastics. Sites didn't mind the
runtime license, which I believe was $100 per machine. There originally
were two X server options, Hummingbird and SCO. MKS bough SCO, and was in
turn bought by PTC, so it's now the PTC X server.

The MKS developer license was $5000 per seat so it was extremely
convenient we could develop on Linux and have one build machine for
release.

Ballmer, who was the CEO from 2000 to 2014, hated Linux and open source in
general. After he screwed the pooch one too many times he was out and
Nadella was in. Microsoft joined the Linux Foundation in 2016.

It's a generalization but India has had an extremely diverse society for
millennia and it's fostered a sense of compromise and cooperation without
all the woke crap. Even if you look at a company like Tata, it exhibits a
good deal of social responsibility without making a big deal of it. It
will be interesting to see if Nadella's style is better for MS than
Ballmer's dog in a manger, take no prisoners, adversarial leadership.

Joel

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Nov 27, 2022, 1:33:29 PM11/27/22
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DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

>Back to WSL: MS has had a POSIX or Unix or [now] Linux environment
>available for Windows for 29 years. So not a gimmick. It's a full
>Linux kernel you can compile yourself if you want.
>
>I think WSL/2 is fairly popular, as there are a good amount of questions
>and answers about it out there. If nothing else, it's fun to play with
>from time to time.
>
>MS has done a good job making WSL easy to use, very speedy, and mostly
>stable.


I say it's a gimmick because while it could be useful in some specific
situations, it's not really a platform to run Linux apps. It's too
taxing on the hardware to actually use it as such.

--
Joel Crump

DFS

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Nov 27, 2022, 10:27:54 PM11/27/22
to
On 11/27/2022 1:33 PM, Joel wrote:
> DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:
>
>> Back to WSL: MS has had a POSIX or Unix or [now] Linux environment
>> available for Windows for 29 years. So not a gimmick. It's a full
>> Linux kernel you can compile yourself if you want.
>>
>> I think WSL/2 is fairly popular, as there are a good amount of questions
>> and answers about it out there. If nothing else, it's fun to play with
>>from time to time.
>>
>> MS has done a good job making WSL easy to use, very speedy, and mostly
>> stable.
>
>
> I say it's a gimmick because while it could be useful in some specific
> situations, it's not really a platform to run Linux apps.

Which apps are you referring to?



> It's too taxing on the hardware to actually use it as such.

Why do you say that?

If you want to config WSL and your WSL distros to use a certain amt of
memory:
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/wsl-config


Joel

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Nov 27, 2022, 11:03:48 PM11/27/22
to
DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

>>> Back to WSL: MS has had a POSIX or Unix or [now] Linux environment
>>> available for Windows for 29 years. So not a gimmick. It's a full
>>> Linux kernel you can compile yourself if you want.
>>>
>>> I think WSL/2 is fairly popular, as there are a good amount of questions
>>> and answers about it out there. If nothing else, it's fun to play with
>>>from time to time.
>>>
>>> MS has done a good job making WSL easy to use, very speedy, and mostly
>>> stable.
>>
>> I say it's a gimmick because while it could be useful in some specific
>> situations, it's not really a platform to run Linux apps.
>
>Which apps are you referring to?


Any - you can do it, but it's a pathetic platform to do so.


>> It's too taxing on the hardware to actually use it as such.
>
>Why do you say that?


I heard my fans going too crazy when WSL was merely running, without
even doing anything. It's not ready for prime time.


>If you want to config WSL and your WSL distros to use a certain amt of
>memory:
>https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/wsl-config


I have sufficient RAM.

--
Joel Crump

rbowman

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Nov 28, 2022, 12:16:58 AM11/28/22
to
On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 23:03:44 -0500, Joel wrote:


> I heard my fans going too crazy when WSL was merely running, without
> even doing anything. It's not ready for prime time.

I have not seen that problem.

DFS

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Nov 28, 2022, 10:43:07 AM11/28/22
to
On 11/27/2022 11:03 PM, Joel wrote:
> DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Back to WSL: MS has had a POSIX or Unix or [now] Linux environment
>>>> available for Windows for 29 years. So not a gimmick. It's a full
>>>> Linux kernel you can compile yourself if you want.
>>>>
>>>> I think WSL/2 is fairly popular, as there are a good amount of questions
>>>> and answers about it out there. If nothing else, it's fun to play with
>>> >from time to time.
>>>>
>>>> MS has done a good job making WSL easy to use, very speedy, and mostly
>>>> stable.
>>>
>>> I say it's a gimmick because while it could be useful in some specific
>>> situations, it's not really a platform to run Linux apps.
>>
>> Which apps are you referring to?
>
>
> Any -

Give me something specific that's bothering you.

All the Linux stuff I've tested on WSL has run well: python and C code,
PyQt apps, SQLite queries of tables with millions of rows,

You remember how much trouble it is to dual-boot back and forth between
Windows and Linux. Now you probably won't ever have to again.

I think it accomplishes what MS probably was aiming for: keeping devs on
Windows.



> you can do it, but it's a pathetic platform to do so.

It's 100% GuhNoo/Linux, running on an ext4 filesystem in a lightweight
vm. I'm surprised to hear you label it pathetic.

On the kali-linux WSL distro:

$ df -Th
Filesystem Type Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/sdd ext4 1007G 41G 915G 5% /

# apt-cache policy coreutils (or sudo dpkg -s coreutils)
Installed: 9.1-1

# apt-cache policy binutils (or sudo dpkg -s binutils)
Installed: 2.39-8

Those are the latest available.

And the kernel is very recent:
$ uname -r
5.15.74.2-microsoft-standard-WSL2

https://mirrors.edge.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v5.x/
Oct 15 2022

$ gcc -v
Target: x86_64-linux-gnu
gcc version 12.2.0 (Debian 12.2.0-3)




>>> It's too taxing on the hardware to actually use it as such.
>>
>> Why do you say that?
>
>
> I heard my fans going too crazy when WSL was merely running, without
> even doing anything. It's not ready for prime time.

Sure it is. But it's not meant to replace a Linux server, if that's
what you were expecting.

I haven't installed a full-on Linux desktop like xfce4 yet, but I've
seen others that have.


>> If you want to config WSL and your WSL distros to use a certain amt of
>> memory:
>> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/wsl-config
>
>
> I have sufficient RAM.

Probably not, if you're hearing excessive fan speed when running a WSL
distro. Win11 is more memory hungry than ever, so I'd recommend 16GB.

Joel

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Nov 28, 2022, 11:32:00 AM11/28/22
to
DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

>>>>> MS has done a good job making WSL easy to use, very speedy, and mostly
>>>>> stable.
>>>>
>>>> I say it's a gimmick because while it could be useful in some specific
>>>> situations, it's not really a platform to run Linux apps.
>>>
>>> Which apps are you referring to?
>>
>> Any -
>
>Give me something specific that's bothering you.


As stated, it wasn't something minor to have running, it triggered a
lot of fan activity, which indicates hardware burnout if one were to
actually use it.


>All the Linux stuff I've tested on WSL has run well: python and C code,
>PyQt apps, SQLite queries of tables with millions of rows,
>
>You remember how much trouble it is to dual-boot back and forth between
>Windows and Linux. Now you probably won't ever have to again.
>
>I think it accomplishes what MS probably was aiming for: keeping devs on
>Windows.


I couldn't get into this kind of question, you're probably making a
good point, but it's not my interest.


>> you can do it, but it's a pathetic platform to do so.
>
>It's 100% GuhNoo/Linux, running on an ext4 filesystem in a lightweight
>vm. I'm surprised to hear you label it pathetic.


If one were to really want to use Linux GUI apps under WSL, I feel
sorry for them.


>>>> It's too taxing on the hardware to actually use it as such.
>>>
>>> Why do you say that?
>>
>> I heard my fans going too crazy when WSL was merely running, without
>> even doing anything. It's not ready for prime time.
>
>Sure it is. But it's not meant to replace a Linux server, if that's
>what you were expecting.
>
>I haven't installed a full-on Linux desktop like xfce4 yet, but I've
>seen others that have.


I simply wanted to see it in action - I had no intention of doing
anything with it. The screenshot of GIMP was sufficient, to have
shown that I could make it work.


>>> If you want to config WSL and your WSL distros to use a certain amt of
>>> memory:
>>> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/wsl-config
>>
>> I have sufficient RAM.
>
>Probably not, if you're hearing excessive fan speed when running a WSL
>distro. Win11 is more memory hungry than ever, so I'd recommend 16GB.


I have 16 GB RAM.

--
Joel Crump

rbowman

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Nov 28, 2022, 5:44:45 PM11/28/22
to
On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 11:31:57 -0500, Joel wrote:

> DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>> MS has done a good job making WSL easy to use, very speedy, and
>>>>>> mostly stable.
>>>>>
>>>>> I say it's a gimmick because while it could be useful in some
>>>>> specific situations, it's not really a platform to run Linux apps.
>>>>
>>>> Which apps are you referring to?
>>>
>>> Any -
>>
>>Give me something specific that's bothering you.
>
>
> As stated, it wasn't something minor to have running, it triggered a lot
> of fan activity, which indicates hardware burnout if one were to
> actually use it.

Let me see... I've got Debian running in WSL2 with gvim up just to have
something going. Let's look at the Windows taskmgr.

1% CPU utilization. I guess the 8 cores are playing Parcheesi. 3.4 GB of
memory. Straining at the seams. When can I expect the fan to kick in?

Joel

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Nov 28, 2022, 5:50:41 PM11/28/22
to
rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:

>> As stated, it wasn't something minor to have running, it triggered a lot
>> of fan activity, which indicates hardware burnout if one were to
>> actually use it.
>
>Let me see... I've got Debian running in WSL2 with gvim up just to have
>something going. Let's look at the Windows taskmgr.
>
>1% CPU utilization. I guess the 8 cores are playing Parcheesi. 3.4 GB of
>memory. Straining at the seams. When can I expect the fan to kick in?


Perhaps I'm just sensitive to it.

--
Joel Crump
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