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DFS literally thinks Wine is stolen Winblows source code

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Joel

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Nov 12, 2023, 4:22:31 PM11/12/23
to
See his, repeated, attacks on my use of Forte Agent, including when
running under Wine and Linux, which involves nothing from M$. It's
obvious he thinks that Wine is fraudulent, since it runs Agent so
well.

--
Joel Crump

DFS

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Nov 12, 2023, 5:31:02 PM11/12/23
to
Seeing as how the Win2K source code is out there, Wine might include
some stolen Windows source code. I doubt it, though.

But Wine is DEFINITELY fraudulent in another way: the claims they make
on their website about Wine running Windows apps are out and out LIES.

www.winehq.org

"allowing you to cleanly integrate Windows applications into your desktop."

Horseshit. I wrote extensively about that Wine crapware 3 years ago,
and how badly it failed to run MS Access and Outlook 2003. I might try
it again in 2 years, this time with Office 2021, but I know it will be
another waste of time.

"allowing you to cleanly integrate a very, very small number of Windows
applications into your desktop." would be the truth

I'm sure those devs worked hard on wine for nearly 30 years, but it's a
complete and utter GuhNoo hobbyware failure.

Physfit Freak

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Nov 12, 2023, 5:37:59 PM11/12/23
to
Have you tried 40tude? It was just like Forte Agent but with important
additions (multiple newsservers I think was one of them), and was free;
Forte wasn't.

I don't know which one of the two it was that had one of the nicest
features. When you'd click on a Message ID, it would go back to the news
server (and not just making a general search in web) and download it for
you to see. Thunderbird doesn't have that and it cannot access messages
on the server that are marked as "read". The only way to access them is
to unsubscribe to the forum, then resubscribe and download the whole
damn posts that go far enough back to contain the single post that you
want! Then delete the rest.

If Thunderbird can actually do that, I'm now aware how. There aren't
add-ons for it either.


Joel

unread,
Nov 12, 2023, 5:50:15 PM11/12/23
to
Physfit Freak <physfi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> See his [DFS's], repeated, attacks on my use of Forte Agent, including when
>> running under Wine and Linux, which involves nothing from M$. It's
>> obvious he thinks that Wine is fraudulent, since it runs Agent so
>> well.
>
>Have you tried 40tude? It was just like Forte Agent but with important
>additions (multiple newsservers I think was one of them),


Agent can do multiple servers easily, just create separate instances.
.lnk files can "start in" a specific folder, where a unique Agent data
set can be stored (I just have one set in the default folder, now on
Wine that's just Data in Program Files (x86)\Agent\, in Winblows it's
in the user folder under Agent's stuff).


> and was free;
>Forte wasn't.


Agent 8 was released nine years ago, still current, still does
everything the way I like it, including under Wine.


>I don't know which one of the two it was that had one of the nicest
>features. When you'd click on a Message ID, it would go back to the news
>server (and not just making a general search in web) and download it for
>you to see. Thunderbird doesn't have that and it cannot access messages
>on the server that are marked as "read". The only way to access them is
>to unsubscribe to the forum, then resubscribe and download the whole
>damn posts that go far enough back to contain the single post that you
>want! Then delete the rest.
>
>If Thunderbird can actually do that, I'm now aware how. There aren't
>add-ons for it either.


Thunderbird is crapware for Usenet, but useful for the few things
Agent misses (much like IRCCloud, in a browser, in addition to a
client native to the OS, or in my case a Winblows client, like Agent,
running under Wine).

--
Joel Crump

Joel

unread,
Nov 12, 2023, 5:53:04 PM11/12/23
to
DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

>> See his, repeated, attacks on my use of Forte Agent, including when
>> running under Wine and Linux, which involves nothing from M$. It's
>> obvious he thinks that Wine is fraudulent, since it runs Agent so
>> well.
>
>Seeing as how the Win2K source code is out there, Wine might include
>some stolen Windows source code. I doubt it, though.


Heh, that is a funny one.


>But Wine is DEFINITELY fraudulent in another way: the claims they make
>on their website about Wine running Windows apps are out and out LIES.
>
>www.winehq.org
>
>"allowing you to cleanly integrate Windows applications into your desktop."
>
>Horseshit. I wrote extensively about that Wine crapware 3 years ago,
>and how badly it failed to run MS Access and Outlook 2003. I might try
>it again in 2 years, this time with Office 2021, but I know it will be
>another waste of time.
>
>"allowing you to cleanly integrate a very, very small number of Windows
>applications into your desktop." would be the truth
>
>I'm sure those devs worked hard on wine for nearly 30 years, but it's a
>complete and utter GuhNoo hobbyware failure.


You based that opinion on trying to run M$ Office? 'Cause I'm using
it to run the two apps I always wanted to keep, from Winblows, mIRC
and this very app Agent, and it works just fine.

--
Joel Crump

DFS

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Nov 12, 2023, 6:11:20 PM11/12/23
to
On 11/12/2023 5:53 PM, Joel wrote:
> DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:
>
>>> See his, repeated, attacks on my use of Forte Agent, including when
>>> running under Wine and Linux, which involves nothing from M$. It's
>>> obvious he thinks that Wine is fraudulent, since it runs Agent so
>>> well.
>>
>> Seeing as how the Win2K source code is out there, Wine might include
>> some stolen Windows source code. I doubt it, though.
>
>
> Heh, that is a funny one.


Well, from 2007:

"Vista is introducing alot of new features and I'm pretty sure we can
(or will very shortly) replicate most of those features in Ubuntu."

http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-161670.html

Replication isn't strictly stealing, of course, but it's the next best
thing. It's the GuhNoo way: beg and borrow.



>> But Wine is DEFINITELY fraudulent in another way: the claims they make
>> on their website about Wine running Windows apps are out and out LIES.
>>
>> www.winehq.org
>>
>> "allowing you to cleanly integrate Windows applications into your desktop."
>>
>> Horseshit. I wrote extensively about that Wine crapware 3 years ago,
>> and how badly it failed to run MS Access and Outlook 2003. I might try
>> it again in 2 years, this time with Office 2021, but I know it will be
>> another waste of time.
>>
>> "allowing you to cleanly integrate a very, very small number of Windows
>> applications into your desktop." would be the truth
>>
>> I'm sure those devs worked hard on wine for nearly 30 years, but it's a
>> complete and utter GuhNoo hobbyware failure.
>
>
> You based that opinion on trying to run M$ Office?

I installed 4 apps: MS Access, MS Excel, MS Outlook, and Notepad++

2 of the 4 failed completely. Access wouldn't open an .mdb file, and
Outlook wouldn't load an email from a .pst file. Excel and Notepad ++
did OK, but I didn't do anything advanced with Excel (someone in the
comments noted that typing an open paren in Excel VBA caused an error).



> 'Cause I'm using
> it to run the two apps I always wanted to keep, from Winblows, mIRC
> and this very app Agent, and it works just fine.

In 2 years I'll try it again with a bunch of Windows apps. I KNOW in my
heart it will be a waste of time - most of the apps won't run, and those
that do won't run as well as they do under Windows.

I'm glad it works for your 2 apps, but I see no reason to use Linux and
Wine when I can just run Windows and get the best software with all
features enabled.

Would you even run Linux if not for those 2 apps working under Wine?


Joel

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Nov 12, 2023, 6:26:31 PM11/12/23
to
DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

>But Wine is DEFINITELY fraudulent in another way: the claims they make
>on their website about Wine running Windows apps are out and out LIES.
>
>www.winehq.org
>
>"allowing you to cleanly integrate Windows applications into your desktop."
>
>Horseshit. I wrote extensively about that Wine crapware 3 years ago,
>and how badly it failed to run MS Access and Outlook 2003. I might try
>it again in 2 years, this time with Office 2021, but I know it will be
>another waste of time.
>
>"allowing you to cleanly integrate a very, very small number of Windows
>applications into your desktop." would be the truth
>
>I'm sure those devs worked hard on wine for nearly 30 years, but it's a
>complete and utter GuhNoo hobbyware failure.


Why can't Microsoft port Office to Linux? They depend on the
WinOffice pairing, in so many ways, not suggesting it's
anticompetitive, but just that it shows why Winblows sucks, and Office
is the worst of it.

--
Joel Crump

DFS

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Nov 12, 2023, 6:52:44 PM11/12/23
to
On 11/12/2023 6:26 PM, Joel wrote:


> Why can't Microsoft port Office to Linux?


They can, of course, but there aren't enough Linux/corporate users to
make it profitable.



> They depend on the WinOffice pairing, in so many ways,

Well, Windows has been called an "Office launcher".



> not suggesting it's
> anticompetitive, but just that it shows why Winblows sucks, and Office
> is the worst of it.


"worst of it"... you have NO IDEA what you're talking about.

If you ever learn to program MS Office, then try replicating your MS
Office programs in LibreOffice, you will finally understand how crappy
LO really is.

For instance, this simple interface system I built in Access years ago
still cannot be replicated in LibreOffice.

https://imgur.com/a/PBpe6Al

Look closely at it. There's nothing to indicate it's even an MS Access
application. That's because there are environment settings you make in
Access to hide the db window, hide the Access menu, set the app title,
etc. They're not available in LO, nor are some of the screen controls.

MS is doomed.



RabidPedagog

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Nov 12, 2023, 7:15:05 PM11/12/23
to
Meanwhile, the same Wine you complain about allows me to play Cyberpunk
2077 in Linux. Imagine that.


--
RabidPedagog
TG: @RabidPedagog
Fuck Windows.

Joel

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Nov 12, 2023, 7:24:02 PM11/12/23
to
DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

> > Why can't Microsoft port Office to Linux?
>
>They can, of course, but there aren't enough Linux/corporate users to
>make it profitable.
>
> > They depend on the WinOffice pairing, in so many ways,
>
>Well, Windows has been called an "Office launcher".


And M$ wants it to stay that way, no reason to make a Linux Office.


> > not suggesting it's
> > anticompetitive, but just that it shows why Winblows sucks, and Office
> > is the worst of it.
>
>"worst of it"... you have NO IDEA what you're talking about.
>
>If you ever learn to program MS Office, then try replicating your MS
>Office programs in LibreOffice, you will finally understand how crappy
>LO really is.
>
>For instance, this simple interface system I built in Access years ago
>still cannot be replicated in LibreOffice.
>
>https://imgur.com/a/PBpe6Al
>
>Look closely at it. There's nothing to indicate it's even an MS Access
>application. That's because there are environment settings you make in
>Access to hide the db window, hide the Access menu, set the app title,
>etc. They're not available in LO, nor are some of the screen controls.
>
>MS is doomed.


LO does everything I would want.

--
Joel Crump

RonB

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Nov 12, 2023, 7:31:04 PM11/12/23
to
Wine also runs Scrivener well. That's about all I've really tried it on.

--
"Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good."
-- Archbishop Charles J. Chaput

Joel

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Nov 12, 2023, 7:31:51 PM11/12/23
to
DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

>Well, from 2007:
>
>"Vista is introducing alot of new features and I'm pretty sure we can
>(or will very shortly) replicate most of those features in Ubuntu."
>
>http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-161670.html
>
>Replication isn't strictly stealing, of course, but it's the next best
>thing. It's the GuhNoo way: beg and borrow.


Microsoft wasn't first at anything, they were just the first to truly
commercialize certain things. GNU/Linux is the first platform to
achieve what it has, and nothing indicates that will change for a long
time.


>>> I wrote extensively about that Wine crapware 3 years ago,
>>> and how badly it failed to run MS Access and Outlook 2003. I might try
>>> it again in 2 years, this time with Office 2021, but I know it will be
>>> another waste of time.
>>>
>>> "allowing you to cleanly integrate a very, very small number of Windows
>>> applications into your desktop." would be the truth
>>>
>>> I'm sure those devs worked hard on wine for nearly 30 years, but it's a
>>> complete and utter GuhNoo hobbyware failure.
>>
>> You based that opinion on trying to run M$ Office?
>
>I installed 4 apps: MS Access, MS Excel, MS Outlook, and Notepad++
>
>2 of the 4 failed completely. Access wouldn't open an .mdb file, and
>Outlook wouldn't load an email from a .pst file. Excel and Notepad ++
>did OK, but I didn't do anything advanced with Excel (someone in the
>comments noted that typing an open paren in Excel VBA caused an error).


Well, Wine is not intended to replace running native X apps. It's
particularly useful for me, for mIRC and Agent, but those are apps
utilizing well documented APIs that Wine handles. You're asking too
much of it.


>> 'Cause I'm using
>> it to run the two apps I always wanted to keep, from Winblows, mIRC
>> and this very app Agent, and it works just fine.
>
>In 2 years I'll try it again with a bunch of Windows apps. I KNOW in my
>heart it will be a waste of time - most of the apps won't run, and those
>that do won't run as well as they do under Windows.
>
>I'm glad it works for your 2 apps, but I see no reason to use Linux and
>Wine when I can just run Windows and get the best software with all
>features enabled.
>
>Would you even run Linux if not for those 2 apps working under Wine?


mIRC, in particular, has a priceless quality due to my programming of
it, and Agent likewise is very customized for me. But I can't see
putting up with Windows bloat. My computer was too fabulous, when
brand new, to be prodding me to double the RAM, already, in 2023.

--
Joel Crump

candycanearter07

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Nov 12, 2023, 7:55:39 PM11/12/23
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Isn't that Lutris/Proton?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

RonB

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Nov 13, 2023, 12:52:05 AM11/13/23
to
On 2023-11-13, candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
> On 11/12/23 18:30, RonB wrote:
>> On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:
>>> Meanwhile, the same Wine you complain about allows me to play Cyberpunk
>>> 2077 in Linux. Imagine that.
>>
>> Wine also runs Scrivener well. That's about all I've really tried it on.
>>
>
> Isn't that Lutris/Proton?

Scrivener, the writing application? I don't remember installing anything
called Lutris/Proton. I assume it's not there, unless it's automatic when
you install Wine.

rbowman

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Nov 13, 2023, 1:25:53 AM11/13/23
to
On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 18:26:27 -0500, Joel wrote:

> Why can't Microsoft port Office to Linux? They depend on the WinOffice
> pairing, in so many ways, not suggesting it's anticompetitive, but just
> that it shows why Winblows sucks, and Office is the worst of it.

There's no money in that.

RabidPedagog

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Nov 13, 2023, 8:07:01 AM11/13/23
to
On 2023-11-13 12:51 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2023-11-13, candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
>> On 11/12/23 18:30, RonB wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:
>>>> Meanwhile, the same Wine you complain about allows me to play Cyberpunk
>>>> 2077 in Linux. Imagine that.
>>>
>>> Wine also runs Scrivener well. That's about all I've really tried it on.
>>>
>>
>> Isn't that Lutris/Proton?
>
> Scrivener, the writing application? I don't remember installing anything
> called Lutris/Proton. I assume it's not there, unless it's automatic when
> you install Wine.

I doubt you'd need Lutris or Proton to run an application as simple as
Scrivener. If it's not requiring a discrete GPU and DirectX, chances are
that Wine will run it without issue.

RabidPedagog

unread,
Nov 13, 2023, 9:08:59 AM11/13/23
to
Why does anyone need to depend on Microsoft hand-outs? SoftMaker makes a
suite that RonB says is fantastic, and supporting them would help put an
end to the monopoly Microsoft has in the industry. Let's face it,
LibreOffice has no chance at putting a dent in Microsoft Office's
business since it mostly appeals to people who either don't have or
don't want to spend any money. However, even there it will probably
struggle since people can easily rely on the online Office as vallor
said that he does. If anyone is looking for a quality suite and doesn't
mind paying money, SoftMaker is probably the solution. I'll gladly pay
the price if ever having quality becomes a necessity in Linux.

DFS

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Nov 13, 2023, 9:27:50 AM11/13/23
to
Cool.

Meanwhile, just typing an open parenthesis in Excel 2003 VBA in Wine
throws an error (according to a user report on their website).

I don't underestimate the difficulty of the Wine project, but creating a
working, reliable 'compatibility layer' is an impossible task for those
developers. Maybe for anyone.


RabidPedagog

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Nov 13, 2023, 9:37:52 AM11/13/23
to
At the same time, why bother with Microsoft Office, especially
considering the age of the one you're trying to use? SoftMaker gives a
free trial, so you'll be able to verify whether it gets the job done
before you consider giving them any kind of money. A lot of people go to
Linux because they _don't_ want to rely on the Microsoft machine and its
hand-outs, but I understand if you want to continue using whatever
you're most familiar with. If I'm not mistaken, SoftMaker was designed
to be familiar to Microsoft users, so it might be exactly what you're
looking for.

For myself, and I've said this ad nauseum over the years, high quality
is of no interest to me considering what I do. LibreOffice does the job
for my personal documents, and I use Microsoft Office (and the free 365
license I get from work) on my Mac since I have to share some of those
documents with students who can't even figure out how to copy files,
much less open do things like "save as."

DFS

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Nov 13, 2023, 10:20:59 AM11/13/23
to
On 11/12/2023 7:23 PM, Joel wrote:
> DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

>> Well, Windows has been called an "Office launcher".
>
> And M$ wants it to stay that way, no reason to make a Linux Office.

No good reason, anyway.




> LO does everything I would want.

It does everything most people want, probably. May even have features
not in MS Office. But it fails completely as a development tool for
sophisticated office and database apps.

It's a LOT of unpaid work for hobby volunteers to replicate the
functionality and interoperability of MS Office and its Object Model and
VBA.

Realistically, if they haven't made it there yet, they never will. It's
a hobby/pay/resource allocation issue. For instance, there's a huge
amount of features devoted to exporting to PDF, but the macro
recorder/playback still doesn't work right, and year after year after
year continues to be labeled 'may be limited'. They're not kidding: a
very simple LO Basic macro recorded with their own tool doesn't work at
all when you run it. Apparently the volunteers are devoting overkill to
the 'export as PDF' features, but they can't find anyone to work for
free on the macro recording/playback features.


Stallman and LO say "We will give them the Free software so your
non-Free software will fail."

MS Office says "Hold my beer".


candycanearter07

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Nov 13, 2023, 10:41:44 AM11/13/23
to
On 11/12/23 23:51, RonB wrote:
> On 2023-11-13, candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
>> On 11/12/23 18:30, RonB wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:
>>>> Meanwhile, the same Wine you complain about allows me to play Cyberpunk
>>>> 2077 in Linux. Imagine that.
>>>
>>> Wine also runs Scrivener well. That's about all I've really tried it on.
>>>
>>
>> Isn't that Lutris/Proton?
>
> Scrivener, the writing application? I don't remember installing anything
> called Lutris/Proton. I assume it's not there, unless it's automatic when
> you install Wine.
>

Ah, sorry I meant to reply to Rabid. Games usually use Lutris (which is
standalone, I believe) and Proton (part of Steam) for Windows game
compatibility.

RabidPedagog

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Nov 13, 2023, 11:15:49 AM11/13/23
to
And I'll say this much: Lutris is spectacular. The Flatpak is, anyway. I
can't imagine how much trouble people get into trying to get games to
work through the repository version.

I have to say that I am a fan of Flatpak, despite the huge size of the
installers.

RonB

unread,
Nov 13, 2023, 11:30:07 AM11/13/23
to
On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:
SoftMaker also has a free Office Suite, that is a little more limited than
the paid one. (No tabs in TextMaker, for example.)

https://www.freeoffice.com/en/

If you download and use FreeOffice, you'll probably get an offer to buy the
full SoftMaker Office for about $25 within a month.

Or, as you mention, they have a full trial for the full version.

https://www.softmaker.com/en/softmaker-office

I don't know how familiar it will be for Microsoft Office users because I
don't use Microsoft Office, but they did recently make the Office formats
the standard on SoftMaker Office (.docx, etc.). (I still choose the old
TextMaker format.)

> For myself, and I've said this ad nauseum over the years, high quality
> is of no interest to me considering what I do. LibreOffice does the job
> for my personal documents, and I use Microsoft Office (and the free 365
> license I get from work) on my Mac since I have to share some of those
> documents with students who can't even figure out how to copy files,
> much less open do things like "save as."

LibreOffice is a good office suite. The only complaints I've seen about it
is that it's not as compatible with Microsoft Office as some people want it
to be. Which means nothing to me. The reason I like SoftMaker better is
because it seems "lighter."

RonB

unread,
Nov 13, 2023, 11:31:30 AM11/13/23
to
On 2023-11-13, candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
> On 11/12/23 23:51, RonB wrote:
>> On 2023-11-13, candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
>>> On 11/12/23 18:30, RonB wrote:
>>>> On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:
>>>>> Meanwhile, the same Wine you complain about allows me to play Cyberpunk
>>>>> 2077 in Linux. Imagine that.
>>>>
>>>> Wine also runs Scrivener well. That's about all I've really tried it on.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Isn't that Lutris/Proton?
>>
>> Scrivener, the writing application? I don't remember installing anything
>> called Lutris/Proton. I assume it's not there, unless it's automatic when
>> you install Wine.
>>
>
> Ah, sorry I meant to reply to Rabid. Games usually use Lutris (which is
> standalone, I believe) and Proton (part of Steam) for Windows game
> compatibility.

Okay. I didn't think Scrivener would require anything special, but I'm not a
huge fan of Wine, so haven't used it much.

RonB

unread,
Nov 13, 2023, 11:33:09 AM11/13/23
to
On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:
> On 2023-11-13 10:41 a.m., candycanearter07 wrote:
>> On 11/12/23 23:51, RonB wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-13, candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
>>>> On 11/12/23 18:30, RonB wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:
>>>>>> Meanwhile, the same Wine you complain about allows me to play
>>>>>> Cyberpunk
>>>>>> 2077 in Linux. Imagine that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wine also runs Scrivener well. That's about all I've really tried it
>>>>> on.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Isn't that Lutris/Proton?
>>>
>>> Scrivener, the writing application? I don't remember installing anything
>>> called Lutris/Proton. I assume it's not there, unless it's automatic when
>>> you install Wine.
>>>
>>
>> Ah, sorry I meant to reply to Rabid. Games usually use Lutris (which is
>> standalone, I believe) and Proton (part of Steam) for Windows game
>> compatibility.
>
> And I'll say this much: Lutris is spectacular. The Flatpak is, anyway. I
> can't imagine how much trouble people get into trying to get games to
> work through the repository version.
>
> I have to say that I am a fan of Flatpak, despite the huge size of the
> installers.

For games I would imagine newer is almost always better. So this is where
FlatPak would really shine.

DFS

unread,
Nov 13, 2023, 11:39:04 AM11/13/23
to
On 11/13/2023 9:08 AM, RabidPedagog wrote:
> On 2023-11-13 1:25 a.m., rbowman wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 18:26:27 -0500, Joel wrote:
>>
>>> Why can't Microsoft port Office to Linux?  They depend on the WinOffice
>>> pairing, in so many ways, not suggesting it's anticompetitive, but just
>>> that it shows why Winblows sucks, and Office is the worst of it.
>>
>> There's no money in that.
>
> Why does anyone need to depend on Microsoft hand-outs? SoftMaker makes a
> suite that RonB says is fantastic, and supporting them would help put an
> end to the monopoly Microsoft has in the industry.


Don't know what the Office market/user share is, but it's got to be
nearly 100% in corporations in the West. Since the mid-to-late 90s or
so, I've not once been in a company that didn't run MS Office.


Joel

unread,
Nov 13, 2023, 11:46:20 AM11/13/23
to
If Microsoft were sincere about Office adoption, they'd port it to
Linux. There is no excuse that says it's too difficult, they own
Windows, they have the source code to port OS components to a Linux-
based engine for the apps. They *do not want* to give up the
WinOffice pair. Making Office for macOS is one thing, it helps
appease Apple fans, but the incentive is not likewise there, for the
open source platform.

--
Joel Crump

DFS

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Nov 13, 2023, 11:56:28 AM11/13/23
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On 11/13/2023 9:37 AM, RabidPedagog wrote:
> On 2023-11-13 9:27 a.m., DFS wrote:

>> I don't underestimate the difficulty of the Wine project, but
creating a working, reliable 'compatibility layer' is an impossible task
for those developers. Maybe for anyone.
>
> At the same time, why bother with Microsoft Office, especially
considering the age of the one you're trying to use?

Trying? I've been using it for nearly 20 years, virtually flawlessly.
At home and at work. Built many corporate apps with it. No
exaggeration - I made about $1M with MS Office alone.



> SoftMaker gives a free trial, so you'll be able to verify whether it
gets the job done before you consider giving them any kind of money. A
lot of people go to Linux because they _don't_ want to rely on the
Microsoft machine and its hand-outs, but I understand if you want to
continue using whatever you're most familiar with.

> If I'm not mistaken, SoftMaker was designed
> to be familiar to Microsoft users, so it might be exactly what you're
> looking for.


Familiarity isn't the issue. It's why? and document formats. I just
don't need new office software, and porting all my old/current documents
to a new system with no real benefit (that includes later versions of MS
Access vs old) is as much fun as letting my cat sink his fangs into my
forearm.



> For myself, and I've said this ad nauseum over the years, high
quality is of no interest to me considering what I do. LibreOffice does
the job for my personal documents, and I use Microsoft Office (and the
free 365 license I get from work) on my Mac since I have to share some
of those documents with students who can't even figure out how to copy
files, much less open do things like "save as."

Scary. I thought kids today had to take computer classes?

DFS

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Nov 13, 2023, 12:48:01 PM11/13/23
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On 11/13/2023 11:46 AM, Joel wrote:


> If Microsoft were sincere about Office adoption, they'd port it to
> Linux.

I can't imagine Office for Linux would be anything but a big money-loser
for Microsoft. And the amount of halitosis spewed their way by
indignant FOSS freeloaders asked to pay for software would be hard to
disperse.

There are tons of Linux servers at businesses, so porting parts of MS
SQL Server would seem to be cost-justified.


> There is no excuse that says it's too difficult, they own
> Windows, they have the source code to port OS components to a Linux-
> based engine for the apps.

I never saw MS say porting to Linux is too difficult. The only IDIOT
making claims like that is Feeb Russell.


> They *do not want* to give up the WinOffice pair.

They already did years ago, with the Mac version. In fact, MS released
Excel for the Mac before Windows.


> Making Office for macOS is one thing, it helps appease Apple fans,

I think they did it initially because of the relationship between Gates
and Jobs.


> but the incentive is not likewise there, for the
> open source platform.

Then there's the "dozens of distros which should we support?" issue.

The chaotic nature of hundreds of Linux distros starting up and shutting
down, and apps developed by anonymous nyms with no support plans, is
offputting to some people and businesses.


RabidPedagog

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Nov 13, 2023, 12:55:43 PM11/13/23
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It's not really about being new; it's about missing dependencies. Using
the .deb versions of Steam and Lutris might result in a faster
application, but there are always dependency problems to deal with. Look
at the reviews for Lutris in Mint for the .deb version and then look at
the same for the Flatpak edition: one works, the other doesn't. With
Steam, I hadn't ever faced an issue until I installed Linux Mint this
last time and Capcom Arcade Stadium wouldn't load. Meanwhile, with the
Flatpak version, there were no issues. I wouldn't use Flatpak for
everything, but I think it will be my default choice on packages I have
issues with.

RabidPedagog

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Nov 13, 2023, 1:01:52 PM11/13/23
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If I remember correctly, Microsoft Office has about 93%. I only know
that because I was curious about how much market share WordPerfect
Office had. I wish I could remember the source for that. I believe
WordPerfect Office had about 3%.

RabidPedagog

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Nov 13, 2023, 1:03:28 PM11/13/23
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On 2023-11-13 11:39 a.m., DFS wrote:
I just did a Brave search on the matter. It says:

"As of 13 Nov 2023, WordPerfect has a market share of 1.91% in the
office-suites market, competing with 14 competitor tools. The top
alternatives for WordPerfect are Google Workspace with 68.60%, Microsoft
Office with 20.20%, and Google Sheets with 5.75% market share. In the
Office Productivity category, Corel WordPerfect Office has a market
share of about 0.1%. The top three industries that use WordPerfect for
Office Suites are Marketing (357), Education (347), and Training (236).
WordPerfect is compatible with Microsoft Office and can open, edit, and
share with more than 60 formats, including PDF and HTML.2 It also
provides more publishing options, such as relative font sizing and the
ability to publish footnotes.0 WordPerfect Office Home and Student is
marked down to $59.99 from $100, and the Standard and Professional
versions are a full $100 and $200 off, respectively.1"

RabidPedagog

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Nov 13, 2023, 1:11:05 PM11/13/23
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On 2023-11-13 11:56 a.m., DFS wrote:

< snip for lack of comment >

> > For myself, and I've said this ad nauseum over the years, high
> quality is of no interest to me considering what I do. LibreOffice does
> the job for my personal documents, and I use Microsoft Office (and the
> free 365 license I get from work) on my Mac since I have to share some
> of those documents with students who can't even figure out how to copy
> files, much less open do things like "save as."
>
> Scary.  I thought kids today had to take computer classes?

I think the ministry of education decided that since today's generations
are born with computers, they know how to use them. Meanwhile, they
don't know how to save files, don't know how to copy anything onto a USB
thumb drive, don't know how to install an office suite, don't know how
to share files, etc.. It's sad to watch. Since everything has been made
to be touch-enabled, they barely know how to use a keyboard to do
anything other than write texts. Alt-Tab is a foreign concept to them.

Their complete incompetence with technology to do anything other than
install Snapchat and send emojis to their idiot friends has confirmed
that my son will only use Linux. Even though I'm not a pro with
commands, I'll teach him the basics and encourage him to learn a few
more. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I knowingly turned him
into another of the kids I see daily. I honestly feel as though they
wouldn't know how to escape having a paper bag put on their head.

Joel

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Nov 13, 2023, 1:15:53 PM11/13/23
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DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

> > If Microsoft were sincere about Office adoption, they'd port it to
> > Linux.
>
>I can't imagine Office for Linux would be anything but a big money-loser
>for Microsoft. And the amount of halitosis spewed their way by
>indignant FOSS freeloaders asked to pay for software would be hard to
>disperse.


It would not be profitable, yes.


>There are tons of Linux servers at businesses, so porting parts of MS
>SQL Server would seem to be cost-justified.
>
> > There is no excuse that says it's too difficult, they own
> > Windows, they have the source code to port OS components to a Linux-
> > based engine for the apps.
>
>I never saw MS say porting to Linux is too difficult. The only IDIOT
>making claims like that is Feeb Russell.
>
> > They *do not want* to give up the WinOffice pair.
>
>They already did years ago, with the Mac version. In fact, MS released
>Excel for the Mac before Windows.


I installed the free trial of Office for Mac, in 2010, it was actually
really good, much better than the Wintendo version.


> > Making Office for macOS is one thing, it helps appease Apple fans,
>
>I think they did it initially because of the relationship between Gates
>and Jobs.


Oh there were many reasons for it at the time, yes, but it stays
around because it's an important thing - and so would be a Linux
version, if they weren't so worried about profit and self-interest.


> > but the incentive is not likewise there, for the
> > open source platform.
>
>Then there's the "dozens of distros which should we support?" issue.


Most can be targeted just like their Edge for Linux, which I installed
from a microsoft.com download today. It's interesting,


>The chaotic nature of hundreds of Linux distros starting up and shutting
>down, and apps developed by anonymous nyms with no support plans, is
>offputting to some people and businesses.


I guess.

--
Joel Crump

RabidPedagog

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Nov 13, 2023, 1:18:28 PM11/13/23
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On 2023-11-13 12:48 p.m., DFS wrote:
> On 11/13/2023 11:46 AM, Joel wrote:
>
>
> > If Microsoft were sincere about Office adoption, they'd port it to
> > Linux.
>
> I can't imagine Office for Linux would be anything but a big money-loser
> for Microsoft.  And the amount of halitosis spewed their way by
> indignant FOSS freeloaders asked to pay for software would be hard to
> disperse.

Nothing against the freeloaders, but they are doing a poor job in
encouraging development for Linux by refusing to even donate to a
project. Apparently, GNOME developers had less than $300,000 to work
with last year.

< snip >

> > They *do not want* to give up the WinOffice pair.
>
> They already did years ago, with the Mac version.  In fact, MS released
> Excel for the Mac before Windows.

That seems to be correct.

> > Making Office for macOS is one thing, it helps appease Apple fans,
>
> I think they did it initially because of the relationship between Gates
> and Jobs.

Microsoft Office for the Mac was released at a time when Apple was going
to go bankrupt in 1997. Jobs came in, gutted the useless products,
forced Apple to work on fewer, more focused products and admitted that
the Mac lacked a decent office suite. He contacted Microsoft not only to
get that office suite, but also to get an injection of much-needed
money.
<https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/trends/on-this-day-in-1997-microsoft-invested-150-million-in-apple-saved-it-from-bankruptcy-8973241.html>

> > but the incentive is not likewise there, for the
> > open source platform.
>
> Then there's the "dozens of distros which should we support?" issue.
>
> The chaotic nature of hundreds of Linux distros starting up and shutting
> down, and apps developed by anonymous nyms with no support plans, is
> offputting to some people and businesses.

There's a distribution for every possible philosophy. In my case, I want
the latest kernel and something that properly supports NVIDIA GPUs from
the very beginning. Pop!_OS seems to be that distribution. However,
Linux Mint ran wonderfully too... as long as it isn't the Edge version.
The Edge version, unfortunately, doesn't support the proprietary NVIDIA
driver yet. Still, other distributions offer other things and anyone can
find something that resonates with them.

Joel

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Nov 13, 2023, 1:35:14 PM11/13/23
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RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:

>There's a [Linux] distribution for every possible philosophy. In my case, I want
>the latest kernel and something that properly supports NVIDIA GPUs from
>the very beginning. Pop!_OS seems to be that distribution. However,
>Linux Mint ran wonderfully too... as long as it isn't the Edge version.
>The Edge version, unfortunately, doesn't support the proprietary NVIDIA
>driver yet. Still, other distributions offer other things and anyone can
>find something that resonates with them.


My system needs the NVIDIA driver quite majorly, I actually was yet
again fooled when I first tried to boot a live session, because I
didn't check if the video was on my TV screen which is an old 720p
class device, my 4K computer monitor was just blank, but I tried again
when I got around to rebooting, and sure enough I could install Mint
as long as I wiped my SSD completely (manually configuring partitions
within the previous system partition under Windows' space failed).

The 4K screen is actually better with Mint than Win11, because I
literally get four times the space of a 1920x1080 monitor, not scaled
up graphics like Win11.

--
Joel Crump

Physfitfreak

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Nov 13, 2023, 2:26:50 PM11/13/23
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On 11/12/2023 4:50 PM, Joel wrote:
> Physfit Freak <physfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> See his [DFS's], repeated, attacks on my use of Forte Agent, including when
>>> running under Wine and Linux, which involves nothing from M$. It's
>>> obvious he thinks that Wine is fraudulent, since it runs Agent so
>>> well.
>>
>> Have you tried 40tude? It was just like Forte Agent but with important
>> additions (multiple newsservers I think was one of them),
>
>
> Agent can do multiple servers easily, just create separate instances.
> .lnk files can "start in" a specific folder, where a unique Agent data
> set can be stored (I just have one set in the default folder, now on
> Wine that's just Data in Program Files (x86)\Agent\, in Winblows it's
> in the user folder under Agent's stuff).
>
>
>> and was free;
>> Forte wasn't.
>
>
> Agent 8 was released nine years ago, still current, still does
> everything the way I like it, including under Wine.
>
>
>> I don't know which one of the two it was that had one of the nicest
>> features. When you'd click on a Message ID, it would go back to the news
>> server (and not just making a general search in web) and download it for
>> you to see. Thunderbird doesn't have that and it cannot access messages
>> on the server that are marked as "read". The only way to access them is
>> to unsubscribe to the forum, then resubscribe and download the whole
>> damn posts that go far enough back to contain the single post that you
>> want! Then delete the rest.
>>
>> If Thunderbird can actually do that, I'm now aware how. There aren't
>> add-ons for it either.
>
>
> Thunderbird is crapware for Usenet, but useful for the few things
> Agent misses (much like IRCCloud, in a browser, in addition to a
> client native to the OS, or in my case a Winblows client, like Agent,
> running under Wine).
>

Can your Forte 8 retrieve a parent message from your news server even if
it was read before? What happens when you click on that Message ID?


Joel

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Nov 13, 2023, 2:37:56 PM11/13/23
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Physfitfreak <physfi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Thunderbird is crapware for Usenet, but useful for the few things
>> Agent misses (much like IRCCloud, in a browser, in addition to a
>> client native to the OS, or in my case a Winblows client, like Agent,
>> running under Wine).
>
>Can your Forte 8 retrieve a parent message from your news server even if
>it was read before? What happens when you click on that Message ID?


Well, there's actually a trick I've used to open a message ID I had to
manually edit - just put that text in a blank new post, then right
click on it and jump to it, if it isn't in the database it will offer
to look for it on the server, either way putting that group on the
display for the browser tab.

--
Joel Crump

rbowman

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Nov 13, 2023, 2:45:09 PM11/13/23
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On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 11:46:16 -0500, Joel wrote:

> If Microsoft were sincere about Office adoption, they'd port it to
> Linux. There is no excuse that says it's too difficult, they own
> Windows, they have the source code to port OS components to a Linux-
> based engine for the apps. They *do not want* to give up the WinOffice
> pair. Making Office for macOS is one thing, it helps appease Apple
> fans, but the incentive is not likewise there, for the open source
> platform.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/26/22747241/microsoft-q1-2022-earnings-
revenue-cloud-services-surface-gaming-xbox

"Microsoft’s business versions of Office and associated cloud services are
also up 18 percent in revenue year over year, with Office 365 commercial
revenue up 23 percent. If you’re wondering whether businesses are moving
to the cloud, Office commercial products revenue dipped 13 percent year
over year, thanks to the ongoing shift to cloud services."

Office is a cash cow. When you look at what Microsoft has ported, VS Code,
much of .NET, and even SQL Server, they are targeting developers. Given
the move to the cloud they are hoping those applications ultimately wind
up on Azure. They already have Office covered in the cloud.

If you really insist:

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/can-run-linux-10-vital-apps-youll-want-
switch/

Physfitfreak

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Nov 13, 2023, 2:57:25 PM11/13/23
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So Forte 8 cannot automatically do it. I think (if I remember it
correctly) 40tude could! All you needed to do was to - in the list of
Message IDs given in the headers - click on the one you wanted. The
message would come on and placed itself correctly inside the tree of the
thread. It was wonderful to have that.

I think I gave up on 40tude because its killfile options were very
limited. How is the killfile options of Forte 8?

rbowman

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Nov 13, 2023, 2:59:28 PM11/13/23
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On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 12:48:00 -0500, DFS wrote:

> The chaotic nature of hundreds of Linux distros starting up and shutting
> down, and apps developed by anonymous nyms with no support plans, is
> offputting to some people and businesses.

There you go again... A business would choose a distro like RHEL (IBM)

https://techcrunch.com/2023/07/21/red-hat-ibm-earnings/

SUSE (whoever owns it these days), or Ubuntu (Canonical).

https://www.computerworld.com/article/3245645/the-5-best-linux-distros-
for-work-red-hat-suse-ubuntu-linux-mint-and-tens.html

Joel

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Nov 13, 2023, 3:38:12 PM11/13/23
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Microsoft Office is the number one cash cow they have, the Windows
platform, to them, is more a launcher for it than it is anything else
on the desktop. Windows as a server OS has some specific uses that
bring in revenue, but on the desktop they're happy for you to install
Win11 for free, hoping you'll get 365.

--
Joel Crump

Joel

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Nov 13, 2023, 3:39:30 PM11/13/23
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Physfitfreak <Physfi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> Can your Forte 8 retrieve a parent message from your news server even if
>>> it was read before? What happens when you click on that Message ID?
>>
>> Well, there's actually a trick I've used to open a message ID I had to
>> manually edit - just put that text in a blank new post, then right
>> click on it and jump to it, if it isn't in the database it will offer
>> to look for it on the server, either way putting that group on the
>> display for the browser tab.
>
>So Forte 8 cannot automatically do it. I think (if I remember it
>correctly) 40tude could! All you needed to do was to - in the list of
>Message IDs given in the headers - click on the one you wanted. The
>message would come on and placed itself correctly inside the tree of the
>thread. It was wonderful to have that.


Agent will be able to find any message ID in its database or on your
server.


>I think I gave up on 40tude because its killfile options were very
>limited. How is the killfile options of Forte 8?


Fine for just automatically deleting or marking read, which is what I
do.

--
Joel Crump

RonB

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Nov 13, 2023, 4:26:04 PM11/13/23