DFS literally thinks Wine is stolen Winblows source code

[Joel]

See his, repeated, attacks on my use of Forte Agent, including when
running under Wine and Linux, which involves nothing from M$. It's
obvious he thinks that Wine is fraudulent, since it runs Agent so
well.

--
Joel Crump

[DFS]

Seeing as how the Win2K source code is out there, Wine might include
some stolen Windows source code. I doubt it, though.

But Wine is DEFINITELY fraudulent in another way: the claims they make
on their website about Wine running Windows apps are out and out LIES.

www.winehq.org

"allowing you to cleanly integrate Windows applications into your desktop."

Horseshit. I wrote extensively about that Wine crapware 3 years ago,
and how badly it failed to run MS Access and Outlook 2003. I might try
it again in 2 years, this time with Office 2021, but I know it will be
another waste of time.

"allowing you to cleanly integrate a very, very small number of Windows
applications into your desktop." would be the truth

I'm sure those devs worked hard on wine for nearly 30 years, but it's a
complete and utter GuhNoo hobbyware failure.

[Physfit Freak]

Have you tried 40tude? It was just like Forte Agent but with important
additions (multiple newsservers I think was one of them), and was free;
Forte wasn't.

I don't know which one of the two it was that had one of the nicest
features. When you'd click on a Message ID, it would go back to the news
server (and not just making a general search in web) and download it for
you to see. Thunderbird doesn't have that and it cannot access messages
on the server that are marked as "read". The only way to access them is
to unsubscribe to the forum, then resubscribe and download the whole
damn posts that go far enough back to contain the single post that you
want! Then delete the rest.

If Thunderbird can actually do that, I'm now aware how. There aren't
add-ons for it either.

[Joel]

Physfit Freak <physfi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> See his [DFS's], repeated, attacks on my use of Forte Agent, including when

>> running under Wine and Linux, which involves nothing from M$. It's
>> obvious he thinks that Wine is fraudulent, since it runs Agent so
>> well.
>
>Have you tried 40tude? It was just like Forte Agent but with important
>additions (multiple newsservers I think was one of them),

Agent can do multiple servers easily, just create separate instances.
.lnk files can "start in" a specific folder, where a unique Agent data
set can be stored (I just have one set in the default folder, now on
Wine that's just Data in Program Files (x86)\Agent\, in Winblows it's
in the user folder under Agent's stuff).

> and was free;
>Forte wasn't.

Agent 8 was released nine years ago, still current, still does
everything the way I like it, including under Wine.

>I don't know which one of the two it was that had one of the nicest
>features. When you'd click on a Message ID, it would go back to the news
>server (and not just making a general search in web) and download it for
>you to see. Thunderbird doesn't have that and it cannot access messages
>on the server that are marked as "read". The only way to access them is
>to unsubscribe to the forum, then resubscribe and download the whole
>damn posts that go far enough back to contain the single post that you
>want! Then delete the rest.
>
>If Thunderbird can actually do that, I'm now aware how. There aren't
>add-ons for it either.

Thunderbird is crapware for Usenet, but useful for the few things
Agent misses (much like IRCCloud, in a browser, in addition to a
client native to the OS, or in my case a Winblows client, like Agent,
running under Wine).

--
Joel Crump

[Joel]

DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

>> See his, repeated, attacks on my use of Forte Agent, including when
>> running under Wine and Linux, which involves nothing from M$. It's
>> obvious he thinks that Wine is fraudulent, since it runs Agent so
>> well.
>
>Seeing as how the Win2K source code is out there, Wine might include
>some stolen Windows source code. I doubt it, though.

Heh, that is a funny one.

>But Wine is DEFINITELY fraudulent in another way: the claims they make
>on their website about Wine running Windows apps are out and out LIES.
>
>www.winehq.org
>
>"allowing you to cleanly integrate Windows applications into your desktop."
>
>Horseshit. I wrote extensively about that Wine crapware 3 years ago,
>and how badly it failed to run MS Access and Outlook 2003. I might try
>it again in 2 years, this time with Office 2021, but I know it will be
>another waste of time.
>
>"allowing you to cleanly integrate a very, very small number of Windows
>applications into your desktop." would be the truth
>
>I'm sure those devs worked hard on wine for nearly 30 years, but it's a
>complete and utter GuhNoo hobbyware failure.

You based that opinion on trying to run M$ Office? 'Cause I'm using
it to run the two apps I always wanted to keep, from Winblows, mIRC
and this very app Agent, and it works just fine.

--
Joel Crump

[DFS]

On 11/12/2023 5:53 PM, Joel wrote:
> DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:
>
>>> See his, repeated, attacks on my use of Forte Agent, including when
>>> running under Wine and Linux, which involves nothing from M$. It's
>>> obvious he thinks that Wine is fraudulent, since it runs Agent so
>>> well.
>>
>> Seeing as how the Win2K source code is out there, Wine might include
>> some stolen Windows source code. I doubt it, though.
>
>
> Heh, that is a funny one.

Well, from 2007:

"Vista is introducing alot of new features and I'm pretty sure we can
(or will very shortly) replicate most of those features in Ubuntu."

http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-161670.html

Replication isn't strictly stealing, of course, but it's the next best
thing. It's the GuhNoo way: beg and borrow.

>> But Wine is DEFINITELY fraudulent in another way: the claims they make
>> on their website about Wine running Windows apps are out and out LIES.
>>
>> www.winehq.org
>>
>> "allowing you to cleanly integrate Windows applications into your desktop."
>>
>> Horseshit. I wrote extensively about that Wine crapware 3 years ago,
>> and how badly it failed to run MS Access and Outlook 2003. I might try
>> it again in 2 years, this time with Office 2021, but I know it will be
>> another waste of time.
>>
>> "allowing you to cleanly integrate a very, very small number of Windows
>> applications into your desktop." would be the truth
>>
>> I'm sure those devs worked hard on wine for nearly 30 years, but it's a
>> complete and utter GuhNoo hobbyware failure.
>
>
> You based that opinion on trying to run M$ Office?

I installed 4 apps: MS Access, MS Excel, MS Outlook, and Notepad++

2 of the 4 failed completely. Access wouldn't open an .mdb file, and
Outlook wouldn't load an email from a .pst file. Excel and Notepad ++
did OK, but I didn't do anything advanced with Excel (someone in the
comments noted that typing an open paren in Excel VBA caused an error).

> 'Cause I'm using
> it to run the two apps I always wanted to keep, from Winblows, mIRC
> and this very app Agent, and it works just fine.

In 2 years I'll try it again with a bunch of Windows apps. I KNOW in my
heart it will be a waste of time - most of the apps won't run, and those
that do won't run as well as they do under Windows.

I'm glad it works for your 2 apps, but I see no reason to use Linux and
Wine when I can just run Windows and get the best software with all
features enabled.

Would you even run Linux if not for those 2 apps working under Wine?

[Joel]

DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

>But Wine is DEFINITELY fraudulent in another way: the claims they make
>on their website about Wine running Windows apps are out and out LIES.
>
>www.winehq.org
>
>"allowing you to cleanly integrate Windows applications into your desktop."
>
>Horseshit. I wrote extensively about that Wine crapware 3 years ago,
>and how badly it failed to run MS Access and Outlook 2003. I might try
>it again in 2 years, this time with Office 2021, but I know it will be
>another waste of time.
>
>"allowing you to cleanly integrate a very, very small number of Windows
>applications into your desktop." would be the truth
>
>I'm sure those devs worked hard on wine for nearly 30 years, but it's a
>complete and utter GuhNoo hobbyware failure.

Why can't Microsoft port Office to Linux? They depend on the
WinOffice pairing, in so many ways, not suggesting it's
anticompetitive, but just that it shows why Winblows sucks, and Office
is the worst of it.

--
Joel Crump

[DFS]

On 11/12/2023 6:26 PM, Joel wrote:


> Why can't Microsoft port Office to Linux?

They can, of course, but there aren't enough Linux/corporate users to
make it profitable.

> They depend on the WinOffice pairing, in so many ways,

Well, Windows has been called an "Office launcher".

> not suggesting it's
> anticompetitive, but just that it shows why Winblows sucks, and Office
> is the worst of it.

"worst of it"... you have NO IDEA what you're talking about.

If you ever learn to program MS Office, then try replicating your MS
Office programs in LibreOffice, you will finally understand how crappy
LO really is.

For instance, this simple interface system I built in Access years ago
still cannot be replicated in LibreOffice.

https://imgur.com/a/PBpe6Al

Look closely at it. There's nothing to indicate it's even an MS Access
application. That's because there are environment settings you make in
Access to hide the db window, hide the Access menu, set the app title,
etc. They're not available in LO, nor are some of the screen controls.

MS is doomed.

[RabidPedagog]

Meanwhile, the same Wine you complain about allows me to play Cyberpunk
2077 in Linux. Imagine that.


--
RabidPedagog
TG: @RabidPedagog
Fuck Windows.

[Joel]

DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

> > Why can't Microsoft port Office to Linux?
>
>They can, of course, but there aren't enough Linux/corporate users to
>make it profitable.
>
> > They depend on the WinOffice pairing, in so many ways,
>
>Well, Windows has been called an "Office launcher".

And M$ wants it to stay that way, no reason to make a Linux Office.

> > not suggesting it's
> > anticompetitive, but just that it shows why Winblows sucks, and Office
> > is the worst of it.
>
>"worst of it"... you have NO IDEA what you're talking about.
>
>If you ever learn to program MS Office, then try replicating your MS
>Office programs in LibreOffice, you will finally understand how crappy
>LO really is.
>
>For instance, this simple interface system I built in Access years ago
>still cannot be replicated in LibreOffice.
>
>https://imgur.com/a/PBpe6Al
>
>Look closely at it. There's nothing to indicate it's even an MS Access
>application. That's because there are environment settings you make in
>Access to hide the db window, hide the Access menu, set the app title,
>etc. They're not available in LO, nor are some of the screen controls.
>
>MS is doomed.

LO does everything I would want.

--
Joel Crump

[RonB]

Wine also runs Scrivener well. That's about all I've really tried it on.

--
"Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good."
-- Archbishop Charles J. Chaput

[Joel]

DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

>Well, from 2007:
>
>"Vista is introducing alot of new features and I'm pretty sure we can
>(or will very shortly) replicate most of those features in Ubuntu."
>
>http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-161670.html
>
>Replication isn't strictly stealing, of course, but it's the next best
>thing. It's the GuhNoo way: beg and borrow.

Microsoft wasn't first at anything, they were just the first to truly
commercialize certain things. GNU/Linux is the first platform to
achieve what it has, and nothing indicates that will change for a long
time.

>>> I wrote extensively about that Wine crapware 3 years ago,
>>> and how badly it failed to run MS Access and Outlook 2003. I might try
>>> it again in 2 years, this time with Office 2021, but I know it will be
>>> another waste of time.
>>>
>>> "allowing you to cleanly integrate a very, very small number of Windows
>>> applications into your desktop." would be the truth
>>>
>>> I'm sure those devs worked hard on wine for nearly 30 years, but it's a
>>> complete and utter GuhNoo hobbyware failure.
>>
>> You based that opinion on trying to run M$ Office?
>
>I installed 4 apps: MS Access, MS Excel, MS Outlook, and Notepad++
>
>2 of the 4 failed completely. Access wouldn't open an .mdb file, and
>Outlook wouldn't load an email from a .pst file. Excel and Notepad ++
>did OK, but I didn't do anything advanced with Excel (someone in the
>comments noted that typing an open paren in Excel VBA caused an error).

Well, Wine is not intended to replace running native X apps. It's
particularly useful for me, for mIRC and Agent, but those are apps
utilizing well documented APIs that Wine handles. You're asking too
much of it.

>> 'Cause I'm using
>> it to run the two apps I always wanted to keep, from Winblows, mIRC
>> and this very app Agent, and it works just fine.
>
>In 2 years I'll try it again with a bunch of Windows apps. I KNOW in my
>heart it will be a waste of time - most of the apps won't run, and those
>that do won't run as well as they do under Windows.
>
>I'm glad it works for your 2 apps, but I see no reason to use Linux and
>Wine when I can just run Windows and get the best software with all
>features enabled.
>
>Would you even run Linux if not for those 2 apps working under Wine?

mIRC, in particular, has a priceless quality due to my programming of
it, and Agent likewise is very customized for me. But I can't see
putting up with Windows bloat. My computer was too fabulous, when
brand new, to be prodding me to double the RAM, already, in 2023.

--
Joel Crump

[candycanearter07]

Isn't that Lutris/Proton?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

[RonB]

On 2023-11-13, candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
> On 11/12/23 18:30, RonB wrote:
>> On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:
>>> Meanwhile, the same Wine you complain about allows me to play Cyberpunk
>>> 2077 in Linux. Imagine that.
>>
>> Wine also runs Scrivener well. That's about all I've really tried it on.
>>
>
> Isn't that Lutris/Proton?

Scrivener, the writing application? I don't remember installing anything
called Lutris/Proton. I assume it's not there, unless it's automatic when
you install Wine.

[rbowman]

On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 18:26:27 -0500, Joel wrote:

> Why can't Microsoft port Office to Linux? They depend on the WinOffice
> pairing, in so many ways, not suggesting it's anticompetitive, but just
> that it shows why Winblows sucks, and Office is the worst of it.

There's no money in that.

[RabidPedagog]

On 2023-11-13 12:51 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2023-11-13, candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
>> On 11/12/23 18:30, RonB wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:
>>>> Meanwhile, the same Wine you complain about allows me to play Cyberpunk
>>>> 2077 in Linux. Imagine that.
>>>
>>> Wine also runs Scrivener well. That's about all I've really tried it on.
>>>
>>
>> Isn't that Lutris/Proton?
>
> Scrivener, the writing application? I don't remember installing anything
> called Lutris/Proton. I assume it's not there, unless it's automatic when
> you install Wine.

I doubt you'd need Lutris or Proton to run an application as simple as
Scrivener. If it's not requiring a discrete GPU and DirectX, chances are
that Wine will run it without issue.

[RabidPedagog]

Why does anyone need to depend on Microsoft hand-outs? SoftMaker makes a
suite that RonB says is fantastic, and supporting them would help put an
end to the monopoly Microsoft has in the industry. Let's face it,
LibreOffice has no chance at putting a dent in Microsoft Office's
business since it mostly appeals to people who either don't have or
don't want to spend any money. However, even there it will probably
struggle since people can easily rely on the online Office as vallor
said that he does. If anyone is looking for a quality suite and doesn't
mind paying money, SoftMaker is probably the solution. I'll gladly pay
the price if ever having quality becomes a necessity in Linux.

[DFS]

Cool.

Meanwhile, just typing an open parenthesis in Excel 2003 VBA in Wine
throws an error (according to a user report on their website).

I don't underestimate the difficulty of the Wine project, but creating a
working, reliable 'compatibility layer' is an impossible task for those
developers. Maybe for anyone.

[RabidPedagog]

At the same time, why bother with Microsoft Office, especially
considering the age of the one you're trying to use? SoftMaker gives a
free trial, so you'll be able to verify whether it gets the job done
before you consider giving them any kind of money. A lot of people go to
Linux because they _don't_ want to rely on the Microsoft machine and its
hand-outs, but I understand if you want to continue using whatever
you're most familiar with. If I'm not mistaken, SoftMaker was designed
to be familiar to Microsoft users, so it might be exactly what you're
looking for.

For myself, and I've said this ad nauseum over the years, high quality
is of no interest to me considering what I do. LibreOffice does the job
for my personal documents, and I use Microsoft Office (and the free 365
license I get from work) on my Mac since I have to share some of those
documents with students who can't even figure out how to copy files,
much less open do things like "save as."

[DFS]

On 11/12/2023 7:23 PM, Joel wrote:
> DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

>> Well, Windows has been called an "Office launcher".
>
> And M$ wants it to stay that way, no reason to make a Linux Office.

No good reason, anyway.

> LO does everything I would want.

It does everything most people want, probably. May even have features
not in MS Office. But it fails completely as a development tool for
sophisticated office and database apps.

It's a LOT of unpaid work for hobby volunteers to replicate the
functionality and interoperability of MS Office and its Object Model and
VBA.

Realistically, if they haven't made it there yet, they never will. It's
a hobby/pay/resource allocation issue. For instance, there's a huge
amount of features devoted to exporting to PDF, but the macro
recorder/playback still doesn't work right, and year after year after
year continues to be labeled 'may be limited'. They're not kidding: a
very simple LO Basic macro recorded with their own tool doesn't work at
all when you run it. Apparently the volunteers are devoting overkill to
the 'export as PDF' features, but they can't find anyone to work for
free on the macro recording/playback features.


Stallman and LO say "We will give them the Free software so your
non-Free software will fail."

MS Office says "Hold my beer".

[candycanearter07]

On 11/12/23 23:51, RonB wrote:
> On 2023-11-13, candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
>> On 11/12/23 18:30, RonB wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:
>>>> Meanwhile, the same Wine you complain about allows me to play Cyberpunk
>>>> 2077 in Linux. Imagine that.
>>>
>>> Wine also runs Scrivener well. That's about all I've really tried it on.
>>>
>>
>> Isn't that Lutris/Proton?
>
> Scrivener, the writing application? I don't remember installing anything
> called Lutris/Proton. I assume it's not there, unless it's automatic when
> you install Wine.
>

Ah, sorry I meant to reply to Rabid. Games usually use Lutris (which is
standalone, I believe) and Proton (part of Steam) for Windows game
compatibility.

[RabidPedagog]

And I'll say this much: Lutris is spectacular. The Flatpak is, anyway. I
can't imagine how much trouble people get into trying to get games to
work through the repository version.

I have to say that I am a fan of Flatpak, despite the huge size of the
installers.

[RonB]

On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:

SoftMaker also has a free Office Suite, that is a little more limited than
the paid one. (No tabs in TextMaker, for example.)

https://www.freeoffice.com/en/

If you download and use FreeOffice, you'll probably get an offer to buy the
full SoftMaker Office for about $25 within a month.

Or, as you mention, they have a full trial for the full version.

https://www.softmaker.com/en/softmaker-office

I don't know how familiar it will be for Microsoft Office users because I
don't use Microsoft Office, but they did recently make the Office formats
the standard on SoftMaker Office (.docx, etc.). (I still choose the old
TextMaker format.)

> For myself, and I've said this ad nauseum over the years, high quality
> is of no interest to me considering what I do. LibreOffice does the job
> for my personal documents, and I use Microsoft Office (and the free 365
> license I get from work) on my Mac since I have to share some of those
> documents with students who can't even figure out how to copy files,
> much less open do things like "save as."

LibreOffice is a good office suite. The only complaints I've seen about it
is that it's not as compatible with Microsoft Office as some people want it
to be. Which means nothing to me. The reason I like SoftMaker better is
because it seems "lighter."

[RonB]

On 2023-11-13, candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
> On 11/12/23 23:51, RonB wrote:
>> On 2023-11-13, candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
>>> On 11/12/23 18:30, RonB wrote:
>>>> On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:
>>>>> Meanwhile, the same Wine you complain about allows me to play Cyberpunk
>>>>> 2077 in Linux. Imagine that.
>>>>
>>>> Wine also runs Scrivener well. That's about all I've really tried it on.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Isn't that Lutris/Proton?
>>
>> Scrivener, the writing application? I don't remember installing anything
>> called Lutris/Proton. I assume it's not there, unless it's automatic when
>> you install Wine.
>>
>
> Ah, sorry I meant to reply to Rabid. Games usually use Lutris (which is
> standalone, I believe) and Proton (part of Steam) for Windows game
> compatibility.

Okay. I didn't think Scrivener would require anything special, but I'm not a
huge fan of Wine, so haven't used it much.

[RonB]

On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:
> On 2023-11-13 10:41 a.m., candycanearter07 wrote:
>> On 11/12/23 23:51, RonB wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-13, candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
>>>> On 11/12/23 18:30, RonB wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:
>>>>>> Meanwhile, the same Wine you complain about allows me to play
>>>>>> Cyberpunk
>>>>>> 2077 in Linux. Imagine that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wine also runs Scrivener well. That's about all I've really tried it
>>>>> on.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Isn't that Lutris/Proton?
>>>
>>> Scrivener, the writing application? I don't remember installing anything
>>> called Lutris/Proton. I assume it's not there, unless it's automatic when
>>> you install Wine.
>>>
>>
>> Ah, sorry I meant to reply to Rabid. Games usually use Lutris (which is
>> standalone, I believe) and Proton (part of Steam) for Windows game
>> compatibility.
>
> And I'll say this much: Lutris is spectacular. The Flatpak is, anyway. I
> can't imagine how much trouble people get into trying to get games to
> work through the repository version.
>
> I have to say that I am a fan of Flatpak, despite the huge size of the
> installers.

For games I would imagine newer is almost always better. So this is where
FlatPak would really shine.

[DFS]

On 11/13/2023 9:08 AM, RabidPedagog wrote:
> On 2023-11-13 1:25 a.m., rbowman wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 18:26:27 -0500, Joel wrote:
>>
>>> Why can't Microsoft port Office to Linux?  They depend on the WinOffice
>>> pairing, in so many ways, not suggesting it's anticompetitive, but just
>>> that it shows why Winblows sucks, and Office is the worst of it.
>>
>> There's no money in that.
>
> Why does anyone need to depend on Microsoft hand-outs? SoftMaker makes a
> suite that RonB says is fantastic, and supporting them would help put an
> end to the monopoly Microsoft has in the industry.

Don't know what the Office market/user share is, but it's got to be
nearly 100% in corporations in the West. Since the mid-to-late 90s or
so, I've not once been in a company that didn't run MS Office.

[Joel]

If Microsoft were sincere about Office adoption, they'd port it to
Linux. There is no excuse that says it's too difficult, they own
Windows, they have the source code to port OS components to a Linux-
based engine for the apps. They *do not want* to give up the
WinOffice pair. Making Office for macOS is one thing, it helps
appease Apple fans, but the incentive is not likewise there, for the
open source platform.

--
Joel Crump

[DFS]

On 11/13/2023 9:37 AM, RabidPedagog wrote:
> On 2023-11-13 9:27 a.m., DFS wrote:

>> I don't underestimate the difficulty of the Wine project, but
creating a working, reliable 'compatibility layer' is an impossible task
for those developers. Maybe for anyone.
>
> At the same time, why bother with Microsoft Office, especially
considering the age of the one you're trying to use?

Trying? I've been using it for nearly 20 years, virtually flawlessly.
At home and at work. Built many corporate apps with it. No
exaggeration - I made about $1M with MS Office alone.

> SoftMaker gives a free trial, so you'll be able to verify whether it
gets the job done before you consider giving them any kind of money. A
lot of people go to Linux because they _don't_ want to rely on the
Microsoft machine and its hand-outs, but I understand if you want to
continue using whatever you're most familiar with.

> If I'm not mistaken, SoftMaker was designed
> to be familiar to Microsoft users, so it might be exactly what you're
> looking for.

Familiarity isn't the issue. It's why? and document formats. I just
don't need new office software, and porting all my old/current documents
to a new system with no real benefit (that includes later versions of MS
Access vs old) is as much fun as letting my cat sink his fangs into my
forearm.

> For myself, and I've said this ad nauseum over the years, high
quality is of no interest to me considering what I do. LibreOffice does
the job for my personal documents, and I use Microsoft Office (and the
free 365 license I get from work) on my Mac since I have to share some
of those documents with students who can't even figure out how to copy
files, much less open do things like "save as."

Scary. I thought kids today had to take computer classes?

[DFS]

On 11/13/2023 11:46 AM, Joel wrote:


> If Microsoft were sincere about Office adoption, they'd port it to
> Linux.

I can't imagine Office for Linux would be anything but a big money-loser
for Microsoft. And the amount of halitosis spewed their way by
indignant FOSS freeloaders asked to pay for software would be hard to
disperse.

There are tons of Linux servers at businesses, so porting parts of MS
SQL Server would seem to be cost-justified.

> There is no excuse that says it's too difficult, they own
> Windows, they have the source code to port OS components to a Linux-
> based engine for the apps.

I never saw MS say porting to Linux is too difficult. The only IDIOT
making claims like that is Feeb Russell.

> They *do not want* to give up the WinOffice pair.

They already did years ago, with the Mac version. In fact, MS released
Excel for the Mac before Windows.

> Making Office for macOS is one thing, it helps appease Apple fans,

I think they did it initially because of the relationship between Gates
and Jobs.

> but the incentive is not likewise there, for the
> open source platform.

Then there's the "dozens of distros which should we support?" issue.

The chaotic nature of hundreds of Linux distros starting up and shutting
down, and apps developed by anonymous nyms with no support plans, is
offputting to some people and businesses.

[RabidPedagog]

It's not really about being new; it's about missing dependencies. Using
the .deb versions of Steam and Lutris might result in a faster
application, but there are always dependency problems to deal with. Look
at the reviews for Lutris in Mint for the .deb version and then look at
the same for the Flatpak edition: one works, the other doesn't. With
Steam, I hadn't ever faced an issue until I installed Linux Mint this
last time and Capcom Arcade Stadium wouldn't load. Meanwhile, with the
Flatpak version, there were no issues. I wouldn't use Flatpak for
everything, but I think it will be my default choice on packages I have
issues with.

[RabidPedagog]

If I remember correctly, Microsoft Office has about 93%. I only know
that because I was curious about how much market share WordPerfect
Office had. I wish I could remember the source for that. I believe
WordPerfect Office had about 3%.

[RabidPedagog]

On 2023-11-13 11:39 a.m., DFS wrote:

I just did a Brave search on the matter. It says:

"As of 13 Nov 2023, WordPerfect has a market share of 1.91% in the
office-suites market, competing with 14 competitor tools. The top
alternatives for WordPerfect are Google Workspace with 68.60%, Microsoft
Office with 20.20%, and Google Sheets with 5.75% market share. In the
Office Productivity category, Corel WordPerfect Office has a market
share of about 0.1%. The top three industries that use WordPerfect for
Office Suites are Marketing (357), Education (347), and Training (236).
WordPerfect is compatible with Microsoft Office and can open, edit, and
share with more than 60 formats, including PDF and HTML.2 It also
provides more publishing options, such as relative font sizing and the
ability to publish footnotes.0 WordPerfect Office Home and Student is
marked down to $59.99 from $100, and the Standard and Professional
versions are a full $100 and $200 off, respectively.1"

[RabidPedagog]

On 2023-11-13 11:56 a.m., DFS wrote:

< snip for lack of comment >

> > For myself, and I've said this ad nauseum over the years, high
> quality is of no interest to me considering what I do. LibreOffice does
> the job for my personal documents, and I use Microsoft Office (and the
> free 365 license I get from work) on my Mac since I have to share some
> of those documents with students who can't even figure out how to copy
> files, much less open do things like "save as."
>
> Scary.  I thought kids today had to take computer classes?

I think the ministry of education decided that since today's generations
are born with computers, they know how to use them. Meanwhile, they
don't know how to save files, don't know how to copy anything onto a USB
thumb drive, don't know how to install an office suite, don't know how
to share files, etc.. It's sad to watch. Since everything has been made
to be touch-enabled, they barely know how to use a keyboard to do
anything other than write texts. Alt-Tab is a foreign concept to them.

Their complete incompetence with technology to do anything other than
install Snapchat and send emojis to their idiot friends has confirmed
that my son will only use Linux. Even though I'm not a pro with
commands, I'll teach him the basics and encourage him to learn a few
more. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I knowingly turned him
into another of the kids I see daily. I honestly feel as though they
wouldn't know how to escape having a paper bag put on their head.

[Joel]

DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

> > If Microsoft were sincere about Office adoption, they'd port it to
> > Linux.
>
>I can't imagine Office for Linux would be anything but a big money-loser
>for Microsoft. And the amount of halitosis spewed their way by
>indignant FOSS freeloaders asked to pay for software would be hard to
>disperse.

It would not be profitable, yes.

>There are tons of Linux servers at businesses, so porting parts of MS
>SQL Server would seem to be cost-justified.
>
> > There is no excuse that says it's too difficult, they own
> > Windows, they have the source code to port OS components to a Linux-
> > based engine for the apps.
>
>I never saw MS say porting to Linux is too difficult. The only IDIOT
>making claims like that is Feeb Russell.
>
> > They *do not want* to give up the WinOffice pair.
>
>They already did years ago, with the Mac version. In fact, MS released
>Excel for the Mac before Windows.

I installed the free trial of Office for Mac, in 2010, it was actually
really good, much better than the Wintendo version.

> > Making Office for macOS is one thing, it helps appease Apple fans,
>
>I think they did it initially because of the relationship between Gates
>and Jobs.

Oh there were many reasons for it at the time, yes, but it stays
around because it's an important thing - and so would be a Linux
version, if they weren't so worried about profit and self-interest.

> > but the incentive is not likewise there, for the
> > open source platform.
>
>Then there's the "dozens of distros which should we support?" issue.

Most can be targeted just like their Edge for Linux, which I installed
from a microsoft.com download today. It's interesting,

>The chaotic nature of hundreds of Linux distros starting up and shutting
>down, and apps developed by anonymous nyms with no support plans, is
>offputting to some people and businesses.

I guess.

--
Joel Crump

[RabidPedagog]

On 2023-11-13 12:48 p.m., DFS wrote:
> On 11/13/2023 11:46 AM, Joel wrote:
>
>
> > If Microsoft were sincere about Office adoption, they'd port it to
> > Linux.
>
> I can't imagine Office for Linux would be anything but a big money-loser
> for Microsoft.  And the amount of halitosis spewed their way by
> indignant FOSS freeloaders asked to pay for software would be hard to
> disperse.

Nothing against the freeloaders, but they are doing a poor job in
encouraging development for Linux by refusing to even donate to a
project. Apparently, GNOME developers had less than $300,000 to work
with last year.

< snip >

> > They *do not want* to give up the WinOffice pair.
>
> They already did years ago, with the Mac version.  In fact, MS released
> Excel for the Mac before Windows.

That seems to be correct.

> > Making Office for macOS is one thing, it helps appease Apple fans,
>
> I think they did it initially because of the relationship between Gates
> and Jobs.

Microsoft Office for the Mac was released at a time when Apple was going
to go bankrupt in 1997. Jobs came in, gutted the useless products,
forced Apple to work on fewer, more focused products and admitted that
the Mac lacked a decent office suite. He contacted Microsoft not only to
get that office suite, but also to get an injection of much-needed
money.
<https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/trends/on-this-day-in-1997-microsoft-invested-150-million-in-apple-saved-it-from-bankruptcy-8973241.html>

> > but the incentive is not likewise there, for the
> > open source platform.
>
> Then there's the "dozens of distros which should we support?" issue.
>
> The chaotic nature of hundreds of Linux distros starting up and shutting
> down, and apps developed by anonymous nyms with no support plans, is
> offputting to some people and businesses.

There's a distribution for every possible philosophy. In my case, I want
the latest kernel and something that properly supports NVIDIA GPUs from
the very beginning. Pop!_OS seems to be that distribution. However,
Linux Mint ran wonderfully too... as long as it isn't the Edge version.
The Edge version, unfortunately, doesn't support the proprietary NVIDIA
driver yet. Still, other distributions offer other things and anyone can
find something that resonates with them.

[Joel]

RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:

>There's a [Linux] distribution for every possible philosophy. In my case, I want

>the latest kernel and something that properly supports NVIDIA GPUs from
>the very beginning. Pop!_OS seems to be that distribution. However,
>Linux Mint ran wonderfully too... as long as it isn't the Edge version.
>The Edge version, unfortunately, doesn't support the proprietary NVIDIA
>driver yet. Still, other distributions offer other things and anyone can
>find something that resonates with them.

My system needs the NVIDIA driver quite majorly, I actually was yet
again fooled when I first tried to boot a live session, because I
didn't check if the video was on my TV screen which is an old 720p
class device, my 4K computer monitor was just blank, but I tried again
when I got around to rebooting, and sure enough I could install Mint
as long as I wiped my SSD completely (manually configuring partitions
within the previous system partition under Windows' space failed).

The 4K screen is actually better with Mint than Win11, because I
literally get four times the space of a 1920x1080 monitor, not scaled
up graphics like Win11.

--
Joel Crump

[Physfitfreak]

On 11/12/2023 4:50 PM, Joel wrote:
> Physfit Freak <physfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> See his [DFS's], repeated, attacks on my use of Forte Agent, including when

>>> running under Wine and Linux, which involves nothing from M$. It's

>>> obvious he thinks that Wine is fraudulent, since it runs Agent so
>>> well.
>>
>> Have you tried 40tude? It was just like Forte Agent but with important
>> additions (multiple newsservers I think was one of them),
>
>
> Agent can do multiple servers easily, just create separate instances.
> .lnk files can "start in" a specific folder, where a unique Agent data
> set can be stored (I just have one set in the default folder, now on
> Wine that's just Data in Program Files (x86)\Agent\, in Winblows it's
> in the user folder under Agent's stuff).
>
>
>> and was free;
>> Forte wasn't.
>
>
> Agent 8 was released nine years ago, still current, still does
> everything the way I like it, including under Wine.
>
>
>> I don't know which one of the two it was that had one of the nicest
>> features. When you'd click on a Message ID, it would go back to the news
>> server (and not just making a general search in web) and download it for
>> you to see. Thunderbird doesn't have that and it cannot access messages
>> on the server that are marked as "read". The only way to access them is
>> to unsubscribe to the forum, then resubscribe and download the whole
>> damn posts that go far enough back to contain the single post that you
>> want! Then delete the rest.
>>
>> If Thunderbird can actually do that, I'm now aware how. There aren't
>> add-ons for it either.
>
>
> Thunderbird is crapware for Usenet, but useful for the few things
> Agent misses (much like IRCCloud, in a browser, in addition to a
> client native to the OS, or in my case a Winblows client, like Agent,
> running under Wine).
>

Can your Forte 8 retrieve a parent message from your news server even if
it was read before? What happens when you click on that Message ID?

[Joel]

Physfitfreak <physfi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Thunderbird is crapware for Usenet, but useful for the few things
>> Agent misses (much like IRCCloud, in a browser, in addition to a
>> client native to the OS, or in my case a Winblows client, like Agent,
>> running under Wine).
>
>Can your Forte 8 retrieve a parent message from your news server even if
>it was read before? What happens when you click on that Message ID?

Well, there's actually a trick I've used to open a message ID I had to
manually edit - just put that text in a blank new post, then right
click on it and jump to it, if it isn't in the database it will offer
to look for it on the server, either way putting that group on the
display for the browser tab.

--
Joel Crump

[rbowman]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 11:46:16 -0500, Joel wrote:

> If Microsoft were sincere about Office adoption, they'd port it to
> Linux. There is no excuse that says it's too difficult, they own
> Windows, they have the source code to port OS components to a Linux-
> based engine for the apps. They *do not want* to give up the WinOffice
> pair. Making Office for macOS is one thing, it helps appease Apple
> fans, but the incentive is not likewise there, for the open source
> platform.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/26/22747241/microsoft-q1-2022-earnings-
revenue-cloud-services-surface-gaming-xbox

"Microsoft’s business versions of Office and associated cloud services are
also up 18 percent in revenue year over year, with Office 365 commercial
revenue up 23 percent. If you’re wondering whether businesses are moving
to the cloud, Office commercial products revenue dipped 13 percent year
over year, thanks to the ongoing shift to cloud services."

Office is a cash cow. When you look at what Microsoft has ported, VS Code,
much of .NET, and even SQL Server, they are targeting developers. Given
the move to the cloud they are hoping those applications ultimately wind
up on Azure. They already have Office covered in the cloud.

If you really insist:

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/can-run-linux-10-vital-apps-youll-want-
switch/

[Physfitfreak]

So Forte 8 cannot automatically do it. I think (if I remember it
correctly) 40tude could! All you needed to do was to - in the list of
Message IDs given in the headers - click on the one you wanted. The
message would come on and placed itself correctly inside the tree of the
thread. It was wonderful to have that.

I think I gave up on 40tude because its killfile options were very
limited. How is the killfile options of Forte 8?

[rbowman]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 12:48:00 -0500, DFS wrote:

> The chaotic nature of hundreds of Linux distros starting up and shutting
> down, and apps developed by anonymous nyms with no support plans, is
> offputting to some people and businesses.

There you go again... A business would choose a distro like RHEL (IBM)

https://techcrunch.com/2023/07/21/red-hat-ibm-earnings/

SUSE (whoever owns it these days), or Ubuntu (Canonical).

https://www.computerworld.com/article/3245645/the-5-best-linux-distros-
for-work-red-hat-suse-ubuntu-linux-mint-and-tens.html

[Joel]

Microsoft Office is the number one cash cow they have, the Windows
platform, to them, is more a launcher for it than it is anything else
on the desktop. Windows as a server OS has some specific uses that
bring in revenue, but on the desktop they're happy for you to install
Win11 for free, hoping you'll get 365.

--
Joel Crump

[Joel]

Physfitfreak <Physfi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> Can your Forte 8 retrieve a parent message from your news server even if
>>> it was read before? What happens when you click on that Message ID?
>>
>> Well, there's actually a trick I've used to open a message ID I had to
>> manually edit - just put that text in a blank new post, then right
>> click on it and jump to it, if it isn't in the database it will offer
>> to look for it on the server, either way putting that group on the
>> display for the browser tab.
>
>So Forte 8 cannot automatically do it. I think (if I remember it
>correctly) 40tude could! All you needed to do was to - in the list of
>Message IDs given in the headers - click on the one you wanted. The
>message would come on and placed itself correctly inside the tree of the
>thread. It was wonderful to have that.

Agent will be able to find any message ID in its database or on your
server.

>I think I gave up on 40tude because its killfile options were very
>limited. How is the killfile options of Forte 8?

Fine for just automatically deleting or marking read, which is what I
do.

--
Joel Crump

[RonB]

That sounds like a good plan.

[chrisv]

Physfitfreak wrote:

>So Forte 8 cannot automatically do it. I think (if I remember it
>correctly) 40tude could! All you needed to do was to - in the list of
>Message IDs given in the headers - click on the one you wanted. The
>message would come on and placed itself correctly inside the tree of the
>thread. It was wonderful to have that.

Agent does that, too. At least, my ancient version of it does.

--
'lie: "WinDOS is now unapologetically *spying* on its users."' -
Dumfsck, lying shamelessly

[RonB]

On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:

WordPerfect is very much a niche product now. Mostly lawyers I think. Never
really like WordPerfect either.

I've worked for one company that moved from Microsoft Office to OpenOffice
(pre-LibreOffice days). For what I did (converted Excel mailing address
spreadsheets into dBase databases) it made no difference.

[chrisv]

rbowman wrote:

Right. DumFSck is lying, as usual.

--
"OEMs have to pay for Windows, but Linux is free and yet not a single
OEM recommends it." -- DumFSck, putting his ignorance on display

[RonB]

On 2023-11-13, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:

Sounds like an AI response.

[Joel]

chrisv <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>Physfitfreak wrote:
>
>>So Forte 8 cannot automatically do it. I think (if I remember it
>>correctly) 40tude could! All you needed to do was to - in the list of
>>Message IDs given in the headers - click on the one you wanted. The
>>message would come on and placed itself correctly inside the tree of the
>>thread. It was wonderful to have that.
>
>Agent does that, too. At least, my ancient version of it does.

One thing to recommend, here, is enabling headers always being
displayed with a message body - the references line will let you
navigate by message ID.

--
Joel Crump

[RabidPedagog]

Us teachers should also be encouraged to use LibreOffice by default. At
my old school board, that was pretty much the only thing you'd find on
their computers. Here in Montreal though, Microsoft is king. The
teachers also insist on using it, but I can't tell whether it is out of
habit or because the features, especially for math teachers, are any better.

[Joel]

RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:

>On 2023-11-13 16:30, RonB wrote:
>>
>> I've worked for one company that moved from Microsoft Office to OpenOffice
>> (pre-LibreOffice days). For what I did (converted Excel mailing address
>> spreadsheets into dBase databases) it made no difference.
>
>Us teachers should also be encouraged to use LibreOffice by default. At
>my old school board, that was pretty much the only thing you'd find on
>their computers. Here in Montreal though, Microsoft is king. The
>teachers also insist on using it, but I can't tell whether it is out of
>habit or because the features, especially for math teachers, are any better.

I actually am lying when I act like no one should use M$. But the
idea that LO isn't really just as good is false. It's descended from
Star Office, it's not merely "open source freeware", it's meant to
represent a cross-platform alternative, and I certainly have used it
on both Windows and Linux.

--
Joel Crump

[chrisv]

RabidPedagog wrote:

>Us teachers should also be encouraged to use LibreOffice by default. At
>my old school board, that was pretty much the only thing you'd find on
>their computers. Here in Montreal though, Microsoft is king. The
>teachers also insist on using it, but I can't tell whether it is out of
>habit or because the features, especially for math teachers, are any better.

It's because they are lazy and ignorant. They could save their
students a lot of money, if they weren't.

--
"People are not going to migrate to desktop Linux until the open
source community gets its act together." - some thing

[RabidPedagog]

On 2023-11-13 17:58, chrisv wrote:
> RabidPedagog wrote:
>
>> Us teachers should also be encouraged to use LibreOffice by default. At
>> my old school board, that was pretty much the only thing you'd find on
>> their computers. Here in Montreal though, Microsoft is king. The
>> teachers also insist on using it, but I can't tell whether it is out of
>> habit or because the features, especially for math teachers, are any better.
>
> It's because they are lazy and ignorant. They could save their
> students a lot of money, if they weren't.

See, that was exactly my thought: use an office suite whose formats
don't require the students and their parents to buy anything. Getting
these people to buy an exercise book is hard enough, I can't imagine an
office suite. However, Microsoft's got that covered: Office is free for
use online...

[Joel]

Cloud virtualization of apps is a nice advance, but I don't feel like
having installed software is obsolete. If I liked M$, I'd have no
problem paying for Windows (as I did) and/or Office 365 (unlike DFS
talking about the 2003 release), but if I really wanted to spend that
amount, LO or GIMP, or some distros, would be happy to take it.

--
Joel W. Crump

[rbowman]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 21:32:18 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> Sounds like an AI response.

Yeah, Brave started doing an AI thing a while back. Leo is their latest
thing.

https://brave.com/leo/

[rbowman]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 18:39:56 -0500, RabidPedagog wrote:

> See, that was exactly my thought: use an office suite whose formats
> don't require the students and their parents to buy anything. Getting
> these people to buy an exercise book is hard enough, I can't imagine an
> office suite. However, Microsoft's got that covered: Office is free for
> use online...

Microsoft used to do that with Visual Studio. It wasn't entirely free but
the academic discount put it under $100.

School boards should be like private companies. When IT puts together a
new computer, programmers and testers don't get Office. We use LO since
people tend to send docx and xsl documents. LO does a decent job for
viewing. My attempts to edit them are a disaster but I think that's a
personal problem. I've never had a reason to use Office. Anything I do is
plain text in gVim; if they want pretty there are documenters.

[RabidPedagog]

I think I've mentioned it before but I am a fan of LibreOffice's archaic
interface. Some see the lack of progress in that area as a weakness, but
it's a strength to me. Why change something which is logical?

[Joel]

rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:

>Microsoft used to do that with Visual Studio. It wasn't entirely free but
>the academic discount put it under $100.

It's free today, although one gets additional abilities by paying.

--
Joel W. Crump

[Joel]

RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> wrote:

>I think I've mentioned it before but I am a fan of LibreOffice's archaic
>interface. Some see the lack of progress in that area as a weakness, but
>it's a strength to me. Why change something which is logical?

Let's say I want to create an image using text and in-line images to
post on Twitter. I can create it in LO Writer, print to a PDF, then
open it, and screenshot it, perfecting it in GIMP. No Windows,
no M$ Office, no Photoshop.

--
Joel W. Crump

[Physfitfreak]

On 11/13/2023 3:29 PM, chrisv wrote:
> Physfitfreak wrote:
>
>> So Forte 8 cannot automatically do it. I think (if I remember it
>> correctly) 40tude could! All you needed to do was to - in the list of
>> Message IDs given in the headers - click on the one you wanted. The
>> message would come on and placed itself correctly inside the tree of the
>> thread. It was wonderful to have that.
>
> Agent does that, too. At least, my ancient version of it does.
>

Then it must've been Forte, and not 40tude, that did it. I used those
early versions of it as well. They came with the isp I had subscribed
("Internet America") free, on a CD that had I think other stuff on it as
well.

I don't know what happened to it. It's not in the box that I keep CDs
and floppies. I have floppies from 1992 in there :)

[Physfitfreak]

If all of those messages are downloaded and are in your computer, then
certainly, even Thunderbird does that. But if you have deleted a message
on your computer, and click on its message id that appears in Reference
headers of all subsequent posts, will it fetch that message from server
and place it in the tree like you never deleted it?

[Joel]

Yes.

--
Joel W. Crump

[RonB]

Ugh.

[Physfitfreak]

Looks like Thunderbird also can fetch by Message ID! Hehe :) I don't
know since when. It couldn't do that a couple of years back. The message
is fetched from server, but is not placed in the tree. It just appears
in a separate window to read or reply to. Good enough.

Thank goodness. I came close to considering a return to Forte! :)

[Joel]

Physfitfreak <Physfi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Looks like Thunderbird also can fetch by Message ID! Hehe :) I don't
>know since when. It couldn't do that a couple of years back. The message
>is fetched from server, but is not placed in the tree. It just appears
>in a separate window to read or reply to. Good enough.
>
>Thank goodness. I came close to considering a return to Forte! :)

I use Thunderbird for replying to HTML posts or to display posts that
Agent doesn't know how to display. The HTML post will be viewable by
Agent, but the reply quotes the plain text and not the contents of the
HTML post. There are also some posts in plain text that use
characters not known by Agent.

--
Joel W. Crump

[%]

yea , you said this already

[Joel]

Fuck off.

--
Joel W. Crump

[Physfitfreak]

I try to always send and receive in plain text. I like to keep it simple.

[Joel]

From: Dick_Holder <dick_...@man.invalid>
Newsgroups:
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,comp.os.linux.advocacy,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: If You Are Uncomfortable with a woman having a
PENIS.......
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 19:03:25 -0500
Message-ID: <su9hse$jpd$1...@dont-email.me>
References: <su9bav$9tt$1...@dont-email.me>
<XnsAE3CA1...@94.23.43.182>
<dbig0hd8vcfloj8dv...@4ax.com>

On 2/12/2022 6:58 PM, Joel wrote:
> Harvey <lem...@cnn.com> wrote:
>> On 12 Feb 2022, Lefty Lundquist <lefty_l...@ggmail.com> posted some
>> news:su9bav$9tt$1...@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> "If You Are Uncomfortable with a woman having a PENIS maybe you're not
>>> mature enough to be dating."
>>>
>>> https://media.patriots.win/post/vuj9f5pQJZZn.jpeg
>>>
>>> So true.
>>
>> You gonna suck your own shit off that penis when "she" blows her nuts
>> and pulls it out of your asshole?
>
>
> I wouldn't suck it after it was in my ass, but I'd let her fuck me,
> sure. And I'd suck it *before* she fucked me.
>
??????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I never realized, at the time, to look at the post in another
newsreader, just now I attempted to find a way to open a message ID in
Thunderbird, but couldn't. If someone can show the shocked face it
was supposed to be, which is explained later in the thread by that
poster, I'd like to see it.

--
Joel W. Crump

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 12-11-2023, DFS <nos...@dfs.com> a écrit :
>
> Replication isn't strictly stealing, of course, but it's the next best
> thing. It's the GuhNoo way: beg and borrow.

It's not like if Microsoft did take any idea for other OSes.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 13-11-2023, DFS <nos...@dfs.com> a écrit :
>
> It does everything most people want, probably. May even have features
> not in MS Office. But it fails completely as a development tool for
> sophisticated office and database apps.

For a sophisticated database app, there are real programming languages
and real databases. Access is just good to try something fast. When you
want real people to use it, with time it becomes a nightmare.

[DFS]

On 11/17/2023 5:39 PM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 12-11-2023, DFS <nos...@dfs.com> a écrit :
>>
>> Replication isn't strictly stealing, of course, but it's the next best
>> thing. It's the GuhNoo way: beg and borrow.
>
> It's not like if Microsoft did take any idea for other OSes.

Sure. There's the famous Bill Gates/Steve Jobs exchange where Jobs felt
like Apple owned the GUI. Gates reminded Jobs that Jobs merely "stole"
it from Xerox before Microsoft did.

Basing GNU on Unix, and including every Unix command and bit of
functionality they could clone/copy, is a huge pile of theft.

When MS does it, Linux "advocates" snivel and complain.

[DFS]

On 11/17/2023 5:43 PM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 13-11-2023, DFS <nos...@dfs.com> a écrit :
>>
>> It does everything most people want, probably. May even have features
>> not in MS Office. But it fails completely as a development tool for
>> sophisticated office and database apps.
>
> For a sophisticated database app, there are real programming languages
> and real databases.

VBA is a real programming language, and Access/Jet is a real RDBMS, and
Access is a real development environment.

> Access is just good to try something fast. When you
> want real people to use it, with time it becomes a nightmare.

Not in my hands.

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Yes, and when you change your job, the ones left with it can only cry.

[DFS]

Why would they cry?

I hide nothing. I leave them the well-commented source code and
database design and other documentation, and explain they'll probably
have to hire another Access developer if they want features added or
changed. Not much else I can do.

[Joel]

DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

>Basing GNU on Unix, and including every Unix command and bit of
>functionality they could clone/copy, is a huge pile of theft.
>
>When MS does it, Linux "advocates" snivel and complain.

Just stupid, GNU didn't thieve anything, it recreated it better than
ever. Same thing with the Linux kernel. That's why your precious
Winblows will never compare to the scope of Linux deployment.

--
Joel W. Crump

[rbowman]

On 17 Nov 2023 22:43:55 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> Le 13-11-2023, DFS <nos...@dfs.com> a écrit :
>>
>> It does everything most people want, probably. May even have features
>> not in MS Office. But it fails completely as a development tool for
>> sophisticated office and database apps.
>
> For a sophisticated database app, there are real programming languages
> and real databases. Access is just good to try something fast. When you
> want real people to use it, with time it becomes a nightmare.

A bored ranger at one of our National Parks created a sort of record
management system with a usable GUI. I was amazed at what he accomplished
but also saddened by thinking what that much talent could do with a bit of
direction.

[rbowman]

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:02:19 -0500, DFS wrote:


> VBA is a real programming language, and Access/Jet is a real RDBMS, and
> Access is a real development environment.

VBA is like a vampire that refuses to die. It was based on Visual Basic
6.0 that was last released in 1998. It is not compatible with VB.NET.

ttps://www.esri.com/arcgis-blog/products/arcgis-desktop/3d-gis/arcgis-
desktop-and-vba-moving-forward/?rmedium=redirect&rsource=blogs.esri.com/
esri/arcgis/2016/11/14/arcgis-desktop-and-vba-moving-forward

Esri said 'Stick a fork in it. It's done' 7 years ago and moved on to
Python as a scripting language. They also dropped mdb support completely
in 11.

Sure there are still VBA programmers. Some of them might even be younger
than me.

[DFS]

On 11/17/2023 10:59 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 18:02:19 -0500, DFS wrote:
>
>
>> VBA is a real programming language, and Access/Jet is a real RDBMS, and
>> Access is a real development environment.
>
> VBA is like a vampire that refuses to die. It was based on Visual Basic
> 6.0 that was last released in 1998. It is not compatible with VB.NET.
>
> ttps://www.esri.com/arcgis-blog/products/arcgis-desktop/3d-gis/arcgis-
> desktop-and-vba-moving-forward/?rmedium=redirect&rsource=blogs.esri.com/
> esri/arcgis/2016/11/14/arcgis-desktop-and-vba-moving-forward
>
> Esri said 'Stick a fork in it. It's done' 7 years ago and moved on to
> Python as a scripting language. They also dropped mdb support completely
> in 11.

Python is now available in MS Excel.

> Sure there are still VBA programmers. Some of them might even be younger
> than me.

ha! I think I'm one (well, I was one - I haven't done any commercial
VBA programming in 13 years). As I recall, you're 75. Are you spry?

[Farley Flud]

On 17 Nov 2023 22:43:55 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

>

> For a sophisticated database app, there are real programming languages
> and real databases. Access is just good to try something fast. When you
> want real people to use it, with time it becomes a nightmare.
>

So, very, very TRUE.

I've written Access applications and the result is that only
I can modify and maintain them and even use them effectively.

Access is not a client-server type DB. If one wants universality
one has to go to a standard RDBM and GNU/Linux has plenty of
options.

[RabidPedagog]

On 2023-11-17 5:58 p.m., DFS wrote:
> On 11/17/2023 5:39 PM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 12-11-2023, DFS <nos...@dfs.com> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Replication isn't strictly stealing, of course, but it's the next best
>>> thing.  It's the GuhNoo way: beg and borrow.
>>
>> It's not like if Microsoft did take any idea for other OSes.
>
>
> Sure.  There's the famous Bill Gates/Steve Jobs exchange where Jobs felt
> like Apple owned the GUI.  Gates reminded Jobs that Jobs merely "stole"
> it from Xerox before Microsoft did.

It's not necessarily a real quote, but it was in Bill Gates' dialogue in
the TV movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley." In my opinion, that is still
the best biographical movie of both Jobs and Gates.

> Basing GNU on Unix, and including every Unix command and bit of
> functionality they could clone/copy, is a huge pile of theft.
>
> When MS does it, Linux "advocates" snivel and complain.

Good point. If I remember correctly, GNU's reason for existing was the
result of companies not being willing to open their code for Wretched
Stallman to look at it and port it over to whatever machines he felt
like using. There is no reason why his movement to imitate the operating
system is any more virtuous than Microsoft's.

--
RabidPedagog
TG: @RabidPedagog
Christ is king.

[RonB]

How do you steal something that is free? BSD UNIX was open (taken from AT&T
Labs, like others) and is the basis for both Linux and Mac OS. So, if Linus
"stole" UNIX, so did Apple. Only later (after BSD existed) did Bell Labs
(AT&T) decide to make UNIX a commercial product.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Unix_timeline.en.svg

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 18-11-2023, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> a écrit :
> On 2023-11-17 5:58 p.m., DFS wrote:
>> Basing GNU on Unix, and including every Unix command and bit of
>> functionality they could clone/copy, is a huge pile of theft.
>>
>> When MS does it, Linux "advocates" snivel and complain.
>
> Good point.

No. They follow a norm. The POSIX norm. Following a norm is not stilling
ideas. It's nonsense to say that.

There was a very serious attempt by SCO to try to prove Linux was
stilling code. SCO lost and disappears. Linux learned to have better
licenses and better ways to prove they follow the law. As their source
code is public, it's really more difficult for Linux to steal the code
than for Microsoft to do it.

> If I remember correctly, GNU's reason for existing was the
> result of companies not being willing to open their code for Wretched
> Stallman to look at it and port it over to whatever machines he felt
> like using. There is no reason why his movement to imitate the operating
> system is any more virtuous than Microsoft's.

In the beginning, the source code was public and open. And when it
started to become hidden and proprietary, created GNU to try to go back
and stay in the public and open source code.

[rbowman]

On Fri, 17 Nov 2023 23:09:40 -0500, DFS wrote:


> Python is now available in MS Excel.

Python 3.x I sincerely hope... Esri 10.8 installed and uses 2.7 while
they finally went to 3.8 with ArcGIS Pro 11. Python 3.x was a breaking
change.

>
>> Sure there are still VBA programmers. Some of them might even be
>> younger than me.
>
>
> ha! I think I'm one (well, I was one - I haven't done any commercial
> VBA programming in 13 years). As I recall, you're 75. Are you spry?

https://www.trailforks.com/poi/73837/

Spry enough for a 4.5 mile jaunt up the mountain yesterday. I bushwhacked
up the lift line which was a little intense and came out at the junction
with the Hot Sauce trail. I took that up to the top and came down the
Moose trail.

It's geared to mountain bikers although some are designated for
pedestrians. Some are downhill only bike trails like the Bjorn Again and
Hello Kitty. The Moose trail zigzags between the two.

At the start of the Bjron Again there is a sign 'Skills Test' next to a 2
1/2 foot drop off at the start of the trail. If you can't handle that
you'd better take the Hello Kitty.

iirc the ski slope finally closed in 2002. Ski slopes need snow and the
top of the lift line is only a little over 5100' and significant snow
starts at about 6000' most years. Snowbowl tops out at 7600' and even
there the season isn't too great a lot of years. Right now it's too foggy
to see if they have any snow yet.

I'm still working but my hours are flexible, stepping in as required. The
arrangement works for me rather than doing the consultant/contractor thing
with billing, quarterlies, and so forth. I did that back in the '80s and
didn't really like the whole business aspect of running a business.

[chrisv]

RabidPedagog wrote:

>Good point.

Not. Almost nothing from that dumb fsck is fair or honest.

>If I remember correctly, GNU's reason for existing was the
>result of companies not being willing to open their code for Wretched
>Stallman to look at it and port it over to whatever machines he felt
>like using. There is no reason why his movement to imitate the operating
>system is any more virtuous than Microsoft's.

No, but his philosophy about FOSS is far more virtuous, far more
altruistic.

That's not to say that his philosophy is entirely reasonable and
practical, beause it isn't. Both closed-source and open-source
software are needed.

--
'cola "advocates": software should be free of cost!' - DumFSck,
lying shamelessly

[DFS]

On 11/18/2023 4:12 PM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 18-11-2023, RabidPedagog <ra...@pedag.og> a écrit :
>> On 2023-11-17 5:58 p.m., DFS wrote:
>>> Basing GNU on Unix, and including every Unix command and bit of
>>> functionality they could clone/copy, is a huge pile of theft.
>>>
>>> When MS does it, Linux "advocates" snivel and complain.
>>
>> Good point.
>
> No. They follow a norm. The POSIX norm. Following a norm is not stilling
> ideas. It's nonsense to say that.

There was no POSIX standard when Stallman started his "movement" to
steal Unix ideas and commands and functionality.

GNU announcement: Sep 1983
First POSIX standard: Sep 1988

https://www.gnu.org/gnu/initial-announcement.html
https://standards.ieee.org/ieee/1003.1/1388/


"Individual programmers can contribute by writing a compatible duplicate
of some Unix utility and giving it to me. For most projects, such
part-time distributed work would be very hard to coordinate; the
independently-written parts would not work together. But for the
particular task of replacing Unix, this problem is absent. Most
interface specifications are fixed by Unix compatibility. If each
contribution works with the rest of Unix, it will probably work with the
rest of GNU."


He farmed out his theft to like-minded software thugs.

[vallor]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 09:09:03 -0500, DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote in
<2Go6N.67172$AqO5....@fx11.iad>:

Can't take you seriously when you spin-out like this.

--
-v

[Joel]

DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

>There was no POSIX standard when Stallman started his "movement" to
>steal Unix ideas and commands and functionality.
>
>GNU announcement: Sep 1983
>First POSIX standard: Sep 1988
>
>https://www.gnu.org/gnu/initial-announcement.html
>https://standards.ieee.org/ieee/1003.1/1388/
>
>
>"Individual programmers can contribute by writing a compatible duplicate
>of some Unix utility and giving it to me. For most projects, such
>part-time distributed work would be very hard to coordinate; the
>independently-written parts would not work together. But for the
>particular task of replacing Unix, this problem is absent. Most
>interface specifications are fixed by Unix compatibility. If each
>contribution works with the rest of Unix, it will probably work with the
>rest of GNU."
>
>
>He farmed out his theft to like-minded software thugs.

In other words, you're envious.

--
Joel W. Crump

[DFS]

Of course! Who wouldn't want a short, lumpy, obese body, an extremely
offputting personality, a beard that can't be controlled, and the
ability to write 73 bullet points on "Don't forget GuhNoo, goddammit!"?

[Joel]

DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:

>> In other words, you're envious.
>
>Of course! Who wouldn't want a short, lumpy, obese body, an extremely
>offputting personality, a beard that can't be controlled, and the
>ability to write 73 bullet points on "Don't forget GuhNoo, goddammit!"?

No, you're envious that people can have a FOSS OS and be satisfied,
whereas you feel compelled to use M$ Office.

--
Joel W. Crump

[Relf]

You (ScottGNU) replied ( to DFS ):
> > Stallman farmed out his theft to like-minded software thugs.

>
> Can't take you seriously when you spin-out like this.

DFS, if it were illegal to take photos of people, and I took your photo,
did I "steal" you or "illegally copy" you ?

IBM wrote the original BIOS.
Who owns the copyright to your _COPY_ of it ?

[DFS]

s/envious/bemused

s/satisfied/deluded

s/compelled/blessed

[DFS]

On 11/18/2023 5:25 AM, Farley Flud wrote:
> On 17 Nov 2023 22:43:55 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>>
>> For a sophisticated database app, there are real programming languages
>> and real databases. Access is just good to try something fast. When you
>> want real people to use it, with time it becomes a nightmare.
>>
>
> So, very, very TRUE.

So very, very BOGUS. Stephane is just being an MS-hating drama queen -
that comes free with Linux.

"with time it becomes a nightmare" is just meaningless babble. The
passage of time isn't going to change the Access application.

If he means "we want changes to the application and database and nobody
around here can do it and it's become a nightmare" then he's describing
every technology that ever existed.

If he means "we upgraded Access versions and now the old app throws
errors and the developer doesn't work here any more and it's become a
nightmare" then he might have to hire a new developer to update the
application.

> I've written Access applications and the result is that only
> I can modify and maintain them and even use them effectively.

Proving what I said before: you don't belong near software or IT.

[Joel]

And yet you hang out here constantly, to prove to yourself you're not
wrong about Linux and LO. So curious.

--
Joel W. Crump

[DFS]

It's edutainment. Plus I like to argue and flame.

[rbowman]

On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 18:22:03 -0800 (Seattle), Relf wrote:

> You (ScottGNU) replied ( to DFS ):
>> > Stallman farmed out his theft to like-minded software thugs.
>>
>> Can't take you seriously when you spin-out like this.
>
> DFS, if it were illegal to take photos of people, and I took your photo,
> did I "steal" you or "illegally copy" you ?

When I was a kid we stopped at a Navajo roadside stand that sold pottery,
jewelry and other trinkets. My mother took a photo at which point the old
squaw started screaming 'You take picture, you pay'. iirc we beat a hasty
retreat after stealing her image.

That's becoming a real problem for AI. Training a model requires a massive
amount of data for tasks like facial recognition. If person A consents to
being photographed and you happen to capture person B or a copyrighted
trademark in the background, can the data be legitimately used? There are
several current suits over data that was vacuumed up indiscriminately.

[Stéphane CARPENTIER]

Le 21-11-2023, DFS <nos...@dfs.com> a écrit :
> On 11/18/2023 5:25 AM, Farley Flud wrote:
>> On 17 Nov 2023 22:43:55 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> For a sophisticated database app, there are real programming languages
>>> and real databases. Access is just good to try something fast. When you
>>> want real people to use it, with time it becomes a nightmare.
>>>
>>
>> So, very, very TRUE.
>
>
> So very, very BOGUS. Stephane is just being an MS-hating

Until there you are right.

> drama queen -

But there you become confused. Does Joel provide you some drugs?

> that comes free with Linux.

As there are more Windows users than Linux users, the drama queens are
mostly using Windows.

> "with time it becomes a nightmare" is just meaningless babble.

No. It's experience.

> The passage of time isn't going to change the Access application.

Of course, if you don't use your application, it doesn't change. And
nothing is wrong with it. Except if you try to use it once your system
does an upgrade and your Access version is no more compatible with the
version it was written. But if you are using it, you add more and more
functionalities and you have more and more users and it becomes very
difficult to understand.

> If he means "we want changes to the application and database and nobody
> around here can do it and it's become a nightmare" then he's describing
> every technology that ever existed.

Yes, but with Access, it can become way more difficult. First because it
wasn't often a developer who created the application, but someone who
knows better than the others and who do it for the all team. Then there
are a lot of way do do things with access and when you try to change
something it can be tricky to understand where the action is triggered.

> If he means "we upgraded Access versions and now the old app throws
> errors and the developer doesn't work here any more and it's become a
> nightmare" then he might have to hire a new developer to update the
> application.

That's not always that easy. Once I saw an application developed by an
intern for a team, because it was cheap, unlike a developer. And at the
beginning, some people were modifying things without understanding. So,
he locked everything in his application. And he left with the password.
And when the team wanted to improve the application, they asked the
IS/IT team for a dev. But without password, that wasn't that easy.

[DFS]

On 11/24/2023 5:47 PM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 21-11-2023, DFS <nos...@dfs.com> a écrit :
>> On 11/18/2023 5:25 AM, Farley Flud wrote:
>>> On 17 Nov 2023 22:43:55 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> For a sophisticated database app, there are real programming languages
>>>> and real databases. Access is just good to try something fast. When you
>>>> want real people to use it, with time it becomes a nightmare.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So, very, very TRUE.
>>
>>
>> So very, very BOGUS. Stephane is just being an MS-hating
>
> Until there you are right.

Picking on MS Access is a sure sign of a Microsoft-hater. And it's
usually also someone not talented enough to use the powerful
capabilities of Access. Like Feeb Russell.

>> drama queen -
>
> But there you become confused. Does Joel provide you some drugs?
>
>> that comes free with Linux.
>
> As there are more Windows users than Linux users, the drama queens are
> mostly using Windows.

no no no no no

Most Linux users bitch endlessly about MS and Windows, but the reverse
is not true.

>> "with time it becomes a nightmare" is just meaningless babble.
>
> No. It's experience.
>
>> The passage of time isn't going to change the Access application.
>
> Of course, if you don't use your application, it doesn't change. And
> nothing is wrong with it. Except if you try to use it once your system
> does an upgrade and your Access version is no more compatible with the
> version it was written. But if you are using it, you add more and more
> functionalities and you have more and more users and it becomes very
> difficult to understand.
>
>> If he means "we want changes to the application and database and nobody
>> around here can do it and it's become a nightmare" then he's describing
>> every technology that ever existed.
>
> Yes, but with Access, it can become way more difficult. First because it
> wasn't often a developer who created the application, but someone who
> knows better than the others and who do it for the all team. Then there
> are a lot of way do do things with access and when you try to change
> something it can be tricky to understand where the action is triggered.

Yes. All that is true. And all that is true for any sufficiently
sophisticated technology.

All the problems you describe can be minimized or eliminated by having
trustworthy, professional, experienced Access developers design, create
and document the systems. If the customer asks for a lot of
functionality, an Access application can become very big and VERY
difficult for newbies to understand. Hundreds of objects (tables,
queries, forms, reports and macros) and thousands of lines of code you
didn't write are hard to dissect. So the company has to bite the bullet
and pay for experienced talent to do maintenance and upgrades and documents.

The same would be true of any C++/Qt application, etc.

>> If he means "we upgraded Access versions and now the old app throws
>> errors and the developer doesn't work here any more and it's become a
>> nightmare" then he might have to hire a new developer to update the
>> application.
>
> That's not always that easy. Once I saw an application developed by an
> intern for a team, because it was cheap, unlike a developer. And at the
> beginning, some people were modifying things without understanding. So,
> he locked everything in his application. And he left with the password.
> And when the team wanted to improve the application, they asked the
> IS/IT team for a dev. But without password, that wasn't that easy.

Access passwords are/were easy to break, but if the intern left you only
a compiled code file (.mde) you could be in real trouble. He should
actually be sued to provide the source code and passwords.

[Physfitfreak]

On 11/28/2023 7:58 AM, DFS wrote:
> Picking on MS Access is a sure sign of a Microsoft-hater.  And it's
> usually also someone not talented enough to use the powerful
> capabilities of Access.  Like Feeb Russell.

Use of Office products require "talent"? ...

They're designed for cro-magnon secretaries' use. (Like perhaps
yourself?) Otherwise, they wouldn't sell.

[DFS]

On 11/28/2023 7:21 PM, Physfitfreak wrote:
> On 11/28/2023 7:58 AM, DFS wrote:
>> Picking on MS Access is a sure sign of a Microsoft-hater.  And it's
>> usually also someone not talented enough to use the powerful
>> capabilities of Access.  Like Feeb Russell.
>
>
> Use of Office products require "talent"? ...

At my level: absolutely.
At yours: absolutely none.

> They're designed for cro-magnon secretaries' use. (Like perhaps
> yourself?) Otherwise, they wouldn't sell.

Chimps like you stare at the shiny surface and bang their bongos. You
have to dig deeper to find the goodies.


https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/vba/api/overview/language-reference

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/office/developer/office-2003/bb726437(v=office.11)

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/office/client-developer/access/desktop-database-reference/database-object-dao

https://www.fmsinc.com/tpapers/daov3/index.html


30 years later and no FOSS crapware has even come close to the power and
interoperability of MS Office.