GEOS user has lost faith
sle...@kean.ucs.mun.ca
the will be any mentionable 3rd-party support for my favorite
operating environment.
I've been told to wait and wait for far too long -- with the exception
a couple minor noteable releases (Mazerunner, and the font-utility
I've heard mentioned, and the Towers game) there has been nothing to
convince me that there has been any significant steps taken to
produce GEOS software.
I somehow feel cheated. I've been hanging on a thread of promise
literally for years. I use GEOS 2 as an integrated works package --
the best one I've seen -- but I can no longer be confident that it
will ever be anything more than that.
I've held off for far too long on picking up fax and voice-mail
hardware and software, and a soundcard -- waiting to see which ones
will be most useful under any software that comes out for GEOS 2.
I grow tired of having to switch out of the environment in order to
use different programs that suit my needs, and I am just tired of
"pretending" that anything more will come of this.
One of these days I'm going to see a Windows program or package that
is will adaquately so most of what I use GEOS for -- each day I become
less reluctant to completely switch over.
**WARNING** I have to be one of GEOS' biggest fans -- if I'm feeling
this way, there must be many others who have lost faith as well.
Please give me some reason to change this unfortunate train of
thought.
Stephen Legge
SLE...@kean.ucs.mun.ca
St. John's, NF CANADA
Sully
>Here's one long-time GEOS user that has pretty much lost hope that
>the will be any mentionable 3rd-party support for my favorite
>operating environment.
>
>I've been told to wait and wait for far too long -- with the exception
[laments deleted]
>I grow tired of having to switch out of the environment in order to
>use different programs that suit my needs, and I am just tired of
>"pretending" that anything more will come of this.
[more accurate lament deleted]
>**WARNING** I have to be one of GEOS' biggest fans -- if I'm feeling
>this way, there must be many others who have lost faith as well.
>Please give me some reason to change this unfortunate train of
>thought.
>Stephen Legge
Stephen,
Now, we've got to be careful about starting up the 'Quit Cryin in
Yer Beer' flames again. *sigh-with-eyes-rolled-upward* Isn't this where
they tell us to buy the SDK and write our own apps?!? :) However, I must say
I agree with you. I feel EXACTLY the same way.
But..
Don't lose all of the faith. I mean it does look grim, but don't
mourn the death until its completely buried. I have grown more accepting &
accustomed to Windows over the last 2 years. But NOTHING (that I can easily
afford at least) can compare to the capabilities of GeoDraw and GeoWrite.
Your computing needs must be answered, and if GEOS doesn't do it right now,
then you must turn elsewhere. Period. (GeoCalc et al comes to mind.) That
may be what kills GEOS. ...or provides a direction for its development. But
since we've all placed our $80 bets already, we might as well at least wait
and see the end of the race. We might be pleasantly suprised. I'm hoping
so.
Sully
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gs0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu | The views, questions and gripes
"I may be the Scrooge who runs Micro- | expressed here are my own, and maybe
soft, maker of Windows, but in reality | someone else's, but I expressed em.
I use GW Ensemble 2.0" - Bill Gates | If you want em, they're yours!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Musciano
> Don't lose all of the faith. I mean it does look grim, but don't
> mourn the death until its completely buried. I have grown more accepting &
> accustomed to Windows over the last 2 years. But NOTHING (that I can easily
> afford at least) can compare to the capabilities of GeoDraw and GeoWrite.
> Your computing needs must be answered, and if GEOS doesn't do it right now,
> then you must turn elsewhere. Period. (GeoCalc et al comes to mind.) That
> may be what kills GEOS. ...or provides a direction for its development. But
> since we've all placed our $80 bets already, we might as well at least wait
> and see the end of the race. We might be pleasantly suprised. I'm hoping
> so.
As I contemplate buying my next machine, probably near the end of this
year, I have to confess that it will run Windows. Why? Too many good apps
that I don't want to miss out on. My daughter is starting to use the machine
(she's 2.5) and I want to run Kid Desk for her. I want Quattro Pro 5.0 for
me. I want integrated sound drivers and CD-ROM access. All this is available
under Windows, and will *never* be available for Geoworks.
I will continue to run Geoworks as an app under Windows, just because I
like GeoWrite and use it for my church's newsletter. But I doubt that Geoworks
will be my primary boot-up environment on the next machine.
You'll never see substantial third-party apps for Geoworks in the retail
channel. It's too bad, but its a fact of marketing life. You will see Zoomer
apps, and maybe you'll be able to run some of them under Geoworks.
--
Chuck Musciano ARPA: ch...@trantor.harris-atd.com
Harris Corporation AOL : CMusciano
PO Box 37, MS 16/1912 AT&T: (407) 727-6131
Melbourne, FL 32902 Fax : (407) 729-3363
A good newspaper is never good enough,
but a lousy newspaper is a joy forever. -- Garrison Keillor
Sully
> As I contemplate buying my next machine, probably near the end of this
>year, I have to confess that it will run Windows. Why? Too many good apps
>that I don't want to miss out on. My daughter is starting to use the machine
>(she's 2.5) and I want to run Kid Desk for her. I want Quattro Pro 5.0 for
>me. I want integrated sound drivers and CD-ROM access. All this is available
>under Windows, and will *never* be available for Geoworks.
> I will continue to run Geoworks as an app under Windows, just because I
>like GeoWrite and use it for my church's newsletter. But I doubt that Geoworks
>will be my primary boot-up environment on the next machine.
> You'll never see substantial third-party apps for Geoworks in the retail
>channel. It's too bad, but its a fact of marketing life. You will see Zoomer
>apps, and maybe you'll be able to run some of them under Geoworks.
>Chuck Musciano ARPA: ch...@trantor.harris-atd.com
>Harris Corporation AOL : CMusciano
>PO Box 37, MS 16/1912 AT&T: (407) 727-6131
>Melbourne, FL 32902 Fax : (407) 729-3363
Chuck,
Sadly, I agree with the Windows bit. My activites went from
exclusive GEOS to 80% Windows- 20% GEOS. [Excluding all of those DOS hours].
There's quite a bit of powerful WinStuff out there to be used.....
Rich Fritzson
Sully <gs0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu> wrote:
>In <CJs3n...@news.ess.harris.com> ch...@melmac.Harris-ATD.com (Chuck Musciano) writes:
>
>> You'll never see substantial third-party apps for Geoworks in
>> the retail channel. It's too bad, but its a fact of marketing
>> life. You will see Zoomer apps, and maybe you'll be able to
>> run some of them under Geoworks.
>
>Chuck,
> Sadly, I agree with the Windows bit. My activites went from
>exclusive GEOS to 80% Windows- 20% GEOS. [Excluding all of those DOS hours].
>There's quite a bit of powerful WinStuff out there to be used.....
>
>Sully
I wonder how many of us there are? I just came to this same conclusion
over the last month. And I arrived there from a pretty strong pro-Geos
position. (Anyone want to buy an SDK CD-ROM and hard copy docs for the
0.8 pre beta release?) A series of things like
1) wanting a cd-rom encyclopedia and knowing one would never
arrive for geos
2) having to use Word to collaborate on a technical paper
3) wanting an easy way to use my fax modem
4) wanting to use reasonable communication software
piled on top of Geos's obvious lack of commitment to the desktop
implementation of Ensemble did it. (When I found that the Zoomer
didn't even come with a piece of paper advising people that Ensemble
existed I knew they were through with it.)
I guess if I get my 286 running again, I'll keep geowrite on it for an
extra word processor (I still don't have one computer per person in my
home.) but my main machines are all running Windows - unreliable,
unaesthetic, inefficient Windows.
-Rich Fritzson
Marshall Kragen
Philip Hurley
Fritzson) writes:
>In article <1994Jan17.1...@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>,
>Sully <gs0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu> wrote:
>>In <CJs3n...@news.ess.harris.com> ch...@melmac.Harris-ATD.com (Chuck Musciano) writes:
>>
>
>>> You'll never see substantial third-party apps for Geoworks in
>>> the retail channel.
>>Chuck,
>> Sadly, I agree with the Windows bit.
>>Sully
>
>I wonder how many of us there are? I just came to this same conclusion
>over the last month.
Well, I for one am going on record in support of GEOS. I am not giving up on
it. Here at work, I will probably soon be forced to use Windows in order to
take up a project started by someone else but I will try to have a Windows
icon under GeoWorks.
I sympathize with you and I am familiar with GeoWorks' limitations and
problems. I get tired of the Start normally or Reset box. But I think that
you are giving up the ship just as the cavalry is on the horizon. Bug fixes
to 2.0 are imminent and SDK results are not far behind.
I think I understand what GeoWorks is trying to do and at the risk of
speaking from ignorance and oversimplification, I think GeoWorks is not so
much concerned with whether GEOS is on every (or even many) PCs so long as
it is on the copier across the hall, the fax machine upstairs, the printer
connected to your network, the telephone on your desk, the cellular in your
car, the microwave in your kitchen and the PDA (of which ever flavor) in
your pocket. After that, why not put it on your PC, too? That would make
interfacing all those other peripherals so much easier.
Let the flames begin.
Philip Hurley "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too
T.A.E.X. often that this great nation was founded, not by
Computer Technology religionists but by Christians; not on religions
(409) 845-9689 but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!" -Patrick Henry
p-hu...@tamu.edu I, too, disclaim.
Joshua Brown
compatibility (oops, this is a reason to keep Geos).
Geos is small, and all of its apps are small. This is good; you
will not only be able to store more apps on your hard drive, but
also download more stuff from a BBS.
Second, Geos is well-planned. Windows is updated almost on-the fly
by Microsoft, and since windoze uses no new programming paradigm
(OOP), microsoft has no need to design a standard for windoze
programming. Geos is based on a new style of programming, so all of
these issues had to be decided beforhand.
-Billy
Do not e-mail me; I am not Josh. For my address, see posts by Billy
Tanksley.
David L. Northcliffe
Wayne Garmil <wa...@aix6.bgs.com> wrote:
>
>
>I too have not given up. Today, I got a new PC at work that has both
>OS/2 (for my TCP/IP needs) and Windows (for the product I'm testing)
>installed on it. And what was the first thing I did? I installed
>Geoworks 2.0 on it so I'd have something useful to work with.
>
I would have to agree about getting work done. What I *can* do with
Ensemble, I can do quite quickly and painlessly.
Fortunately, "going to Windows" would not be particularly painful for
me. I do not enthusiastically praise Windoze, but I have been a
steady user ever since 3.1 first came out. There are some tasks that I
have to use Windoze programs for, because that's all I have to do the job.
It is interesting to compare how much work I can get done per megabyte
of hard disk space under GEOS to the massive space occupied by the few
Windoze programs that I do have. :-)
--
..............................................................................
David Northcliffe
dln...@rigel.tamu.edu
dln...@tamuts.tamu.edu
Wayne Garmil
In article <p-hurley1.4...@tamu.edu> p-hu...@tamu.edu (Philip Hurley) writes:
>In article <2hel6f...@rintintin.cs.umbc.edu> frit...@cs.umbc.edu (Rich
>Fritzson) writes:
>
>>In article <1994Jan17.1...@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>,
>>Sully <gs0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu> wrote:
>>>In <CJs3n...@news.ess.harris.com> ch...@melmac.Harris-ATD.com (Chuck Musciano) writes:
>>>
>>
>>>> You'll never see substantial third-party apps for Geoworks in
>>>> the retail channel.
>
>>>Chuck,
>>> Sadly, I agree with the Windows bit.
>>>Sully
>>
>>I wonder how many of us there are? I just came to this same conclusion
>>over the last month.
>
>Well, I for one am going on record in support of GEOS. I am not giving up on
>it. Here at work, I will probably soon be forced to use Windows in order to
>take up a project started by someone else but I will try to have a Windows
>icon under GeoWorks.
I too have not given up. Today, I got a new PC at work that has both
OS/2 (for my TCP/IP needs) and Windows (for the product I'm testing)
installed on it. And what was the first thing I did? I installed
Geoworks 2.0 on it so I'd have something useful to work with.
I and an adament Windows hater. I've used it before, and do NOT like
it in the least. I crashed my new Windows three times just trying to
get the clock up and running on it! I can't wait until tomorrow when
I have to install and test-run our new software product as part of my
QA job. How will I know if it's our product that's crashing my PC or
Windows itself? From what I've seen today, my bets are on Windows
first and our new software second.
I've never worked with OS/2 before, so I'll withhold comments on it
until I've had some chance to use it. I may find it nice (being able
to read news without logging into our Unix box is an advantage :) But
I still felt I wanted Geoworks there for the stuff I have to do that's
time-critical. I don't have time to fight with an unfamiliar,
undependable Windows program. I'll use GeoWrite for my reports just
like I did yesterday. It more than meets my needs; it exceeds them.
So, anyone else care to join in the fight, er, discussion? :)
Wayne
--
Wayne S. Garmil | Who wants to live forever
BGS Systems, Inc., Waltham, MA | If true love has to die?
Internet: wa...@bgs.com or wga...@world.std.com | - F. Mercury & B. May
Uucp: uunet!bgs!wayne | (From Highlander the Series)
Shag
>Well, I for one am going on record in support of GEOS. I am not giving up on
>it.
I also will go in record in support of GEOS, for the following reasons:
1) I need specialized software, whether it's easy things like templates and
scripts, or complex things like applications, on a frequent basis. I can
not afford to purchase highly specialized software, or contract anyone
else to create it for me, and I prefer to design my own.
2) I can't afford to acquire hardware or software at this time, and have
far better uses for any money I might get in the forseeable future. GEOS
gives me, for $80, the equivalent of at least 10 _times_ that cost in
brand-name Windows software.
3) Using inefficiently coded software compromises my personal integrity as
someone who strongly believes in efficient coding. Knowing what GEOS can
do, and how much space it takes up, I cannot bring myself to accept what
I perceive as shoddy programming on the part of Windows developers.
4) I expect to use, and develop for, a variety of 80x86-based computing
devices in the next few years, and GEOS is the best bet for that, hands
down.
A couple thoughts:
* Any new technology takes time to catch on. Windows didn't catch on until
version 3, really.
* If something is _really_ good (and I believe GEOS is) it won't just die.
>I get tired of the Start normally or Reset box.
You could add the following lines to the [ui] section of your GEOS.INI :)
doNotDisplayResetBox = true
deleteStateFilesAfterCrash = true
>But I think that you are giving up the ship just as the cavalry is on the
>horizon. Bug fixes to 2.0 are imminent and SDK results are not far behind.
I agree that anyone who gives up on GEOS right now picks the worst possible
time to do so. The SDK has been widely available for three months now, and
the first third-party commercial applications (from, I suspect, people or
companies who got the SDK during beta - 3 months is an awful short product
cycle in anything more advanced than BASIC, in my opinion ;) should be out
this month or next, along with that update MK tells us of. It's sort of like
jumping off the bandwagon just before the music starts. :)
-Shag
--
.4991 rof erutangis. lanimilbus deksam-drawkcab wen s'gahS s'ti ,enoyreve kooL
.posys [2755-877 (906)] stsaeB & skooB ,tsidaSOEG ,retirw QAF ,rennurteN :gahS
.xinU SOnuS ,005 teJkseD PH ,medoMxaF ASXF00441MP IPP ,0.2 SOEG skroWoeG :sesU
.ahsiaM deman recnad niatrec a htiw stserof hguorht sklaw gnol rof gnioG :sgiD
Shag
>Geos is small, and all of its apps are small. This is good; you will not
>only be able to store more apps on your hard drive, but also download more
>stuff from a BBS.
Yep - even more importantly, the OOP nature of GEOS makes for a _lot_ of
code reuse, so once you get the system installed, it's really hard to use
up space with apps, even if you get a lot of them. :) This leaves much
more room for data.
Tom Perconti
>it in the least. I crashed my new Windows three times just trying to
>get the clock up and running on it! I can't wait until tomorrow when
Aw come on. You either have a hardware problem or your installation of
Windows was faulty. I've installed Windows on 100's of PC's and only one
had a problem like that...and it turned out to be faulty RAM.
(...lines deleted...)
>I've never worked with OS/2 before, so I'll withhold comments on it
>until I've had some chance to use it. I may find it nice (being able
>to read news without logging into our Unix box is an advantage :) But
If you like GeoWorks you'll probably love OS/2. OS/2's WorkPlace Shell
has quite a bit in common with GeoWorks. Long filenames, folders, program
objects (ie. program launchers), DRIVES (ie. drive icons), auto resume on
boot up, application/data icon assocations, etc. help ease the transition
from GeoWorks to OS/2.
As a recovering Geo-Whiner, I sympathize wholeheartedly with the sentiments
expressed in this thread. The more you appreciate what GeoWorks was
attempting to do, the more frustrated and depressed you get.
I do believe, however, that some folks are going a little overboard. Okay,
so Ensemble 2.0 is dead-ended...does this fact diminish its capabilities?
Is it any less powerful? Of course not. I mean, come on, for about 1/2 the
price of the text-based MS Works, you get a state-of-the-art GUI, an entire
suite of applications that give "the big boys" a run for their money, and
a super file organizer. True, all that potential just sitting there *wasted*
is frustrating, but that feeling passes with time.
...on a related note, does ANYONE know how I can get greater than 640x480
resolution on my XGA adapter under Geos? Any info is GREATLY appreciated,
thanks and don't give up!
...To GeoWorks, hello, if you're listening, I gladly purchased Geoworks Pro
way back when, and jumped at 2.0 days after it was available. I'm warming
up my credit card for 2.x....so, "If you sell it....I will buy it!" :-)
.............................................................................
Thomas C. Perconti, Workstation Technical Support, ISSC Solution Center - MHV
INTERNET:spdr...@vnet.ibm.com
MICHAEL WISE
Geos runs on a 286 with a SuperStor drive of only 40M and 3M of RAM.
SuperStor does not seem to inhibit Geoworks at all--that other GUI requires
dedicated hard disk space for its swap. Not only does Geos run, it multi-
tasks.
Geos is true WYSIWYG: what I see on the screen and what I get out of
the printer are the same. No other program I've used can put the font I
want out through the printer I'm forced to use. No other program has
the image capabilities. That is, no program that doesn't first require
a major investment in new hardware.
The price was right.
Rants: WYSIWYG can be a burden; I'm used to good clear UltraFont on my
screen, and though many of these fonts print out well enough, they don't
look that stunning on the screen. It would be nice to use Geos's control
font for typing things in, then changing things around for printing. The
Notepad works for that, but can't handle large files.
Following from that, Geos doesn't have a good text-only editor, and GeoWrite
goes through a spaz every time I throw in an extra paragraph break. This
is a bother for me since I spend a lot of time editing e-texts, and I
have to use qedit or word. However, chucking word's printer files cuts
down its size a lot, but I'd rather just do away with it totally.
Geocomm has never worked, and I can't change modem and initializations
as easily as with Kermit.
I'd hoped, with my minimal disk space, to get rid of some redundant programs
and use exclusively Geoworks. Currently, that dream is far from being a
reality. I still use Quattro Pro, word (which I hate), Edit and QEdit,
and Kermit, all of which are duplicated in the Ensemble package. These
others generally perform some small function Geos doesn't. Perhaps third
party developments need to concentrate on more basic needs, like text-editing
and viewing, spreadsheet tweaks, working comm software (with fax?) and
a wider range with the spreadsheets.
Geos has started with a good idea. Hopefully, that idea is modular enough
to allow new developments that don't end up being just quick fixes.
___________________________________________________________________________
Michael Wise (wwhi...@nevada.edu) UNLV English
"Now I want you to tell me just one thing more. Why do you hate the South?"
"I dont hate it," Quentin said quickly, at once, immediately; "I dont
hate it," he said. I dont hate it he thought, panting in the cold air,
the iron New England dark: I dont. I dont. I dont hate it! I dont hate it!
--William Faulkner, Absalom! Absalom!
dk...@unm.edu
When I started using a PC, it was an old XT with 256 k of RAM and a 10 Mb
hard drive. It did wonderful things and was quite quick.
When I bought a clone, it was a 286/8 with 1 Mb and a 20 Mb drive. I still
use it. It still does wonderful things and is much faster.
When I was Windows demonstrated, it looked really nice, but I could type
faster than the screen could display characters. I was disappointed. When I
read the system requirements, I was even more disappointed.
There is a trend to needing more and more hardware to do even mundane tasks,
and I object to that trend strongly, so when GEOS came out, I was encouraged
by the possiblility of small, quick, functional software that creates an
attractive and powerful environment on a primitive (some say useless) piece
of hardware. I still use 1 Mb RAM and 20 Mb hard drive.
I hope GEOS can keep it together long enough to have more useful desktop
applications available. I will wait for this to happen, or for GEOworks to
fold.
Daniel Kim k...@flovax.lanl.gov
Shag
>Raves:
[Good points]
>Rants:
[Bad points]
>Notepad works for that, but can't handle large files.
>Following from that, Geos doesn't have a good text-only editor,
>Geocomm has never worked,
>I still use Quattro Pro, word (which I hate), Edit and QEdit, and Kermit,
Egad... you're _obviously_ talking about Geoworks Ensemble 1.0, 1.2, or
Geoworks Pro. Have you considered upgrading to Geoworks Ensemble 2.0?
It has a perfectly good Text File Editor, large-file capable. GeoComm works
much better (as in, I don't crash it daily. ;) GeoCalc (a nice graphical
spreadsheet) is included - as are GeoFile (a nice graphical database) and
other goodies you would no doubt like.
Philip Hurley
One point that should be made concerns the loss of faith.
There's a difference between losing faith and giving up. I admit
that my faith is shaky. But I'm in no way giving up.
I've given up when I delete GEOS 2.0 off my hard drive.
When it comes to defending GEOS and
it's power, I'll be there - I may gripe about things at the same
time but are any of us 100% happy? I hated Windows. GEOS had
truly scalable fonts
LONG before TrueType came along. I was in love. I was young...
no wait... GEOS has such power - especially in GeoWrite /
GeoDraw that if further developed could shatter some Windows even
more.
But I think that for many users, like myself, Windows also
has it's niche of effectiveness. As I said before, You've gotta
use whatever gets it done for you - DAMN IT, YOU BETTER BE USING
GEOWRITE THOUGH!!!
I think the key to frustration/loss-of-faith thing lies in
the fact that folks with exposure to Windows see the whirlwind of
software be made available and feel that GEOS is unjustly being
left behind.
Let's keep watching. As Shag said in his thread, the SDK
has hardly been out long enough for any real development.
Sully
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
gs0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu | The views, questions
and gripes
"I may be the Scrooge who runs Micro- | expressed here are my
own, and maybe
soft, maker of Windows, but in reality | someone else's, but I
expressed em.
I use GW Ensemble 2.0" - Bill Gates | If you want em,
they're yours!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
Philip Hurley "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too
James LaRue
: It would be nice to use Geos's control
: font for typing things in, then changing things around for printing. The
: Notepad works for that, but can't handle large files.
Actually, you can use GeoWrite for that. Use View, Display, Draft without
Styles. I use this a lot for writing.
: Following from that, Geos doesn't have a good text-only editor
May I recommend VDE (available from oak.oakland.edu as shareware? It takes
up just 61K of disk space and about 200K RAM. It also reads and writes
Wordstar, ASCII, Word, WordPerfect, XyWRite, NotaBene, and other files. I
think it does have a 60K limit for text file size, though.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James LaRue | The Tao that can be named
email: jla...@csn.org | is not the true Tao. - Lao tzu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary Scott Carlson
Wayne
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FOLLOW-UP STARTS HERE:
I have no choice but to use MS-Windoze at work. Just this evening, it
crashed with Visio, Quattro, and WordPerfect(NOT!) running; I save often,
so I didn't lose much work, but ........
I'll never give up on GeoWorks. I'll still happily use it even if it is an
orphan. And my next machine (from 286 to 486) will have MS-W in order to
take advantage of some of the other stuff. But for drawings and word
processing, GWE is it. Come on, Berkeley! With all these supporters and a
wonderful product, please hop on your bandwagon! I remember that in the
early days there were ads in the magazines. Now I don't even see GWE
listed in the SW vendors' lists.
We'er not giving up on you --- don't give up on us!
.............. gary
Shag
>Come on, Berkeley! With all these supporters and a wonderful product,
>please hop on your bandwagon! I remember that in the early days there
>were ads in the magazines. Now I don't even see GWE listed in the SW
>vendors' lists.
This raises a point. In addition to communicating to the media that we
would like to see more coverage of GEOS and related topics, it's entirely
acceptable (and perhaps even prudent) for us to communicate to vendors
that we would like to see more retail availability of the products. Not
that buying direct from GeoWorks is a _problem_ - indeed, vendors would
likely charge more for things - but some of us have certain vendors with
whom we like to do business, and all of us can benefit from increased
visibility of GEOS. Surely I'm not the only one who receives several
computer-product catalogs every month, devoid of GEOS! :)
Eric Scoles
>In article <2hhllh...@aix6.bgs.com>,
>Wayne Garmil <wa...@aix6.bgs.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>I too have not given up. Today, I got a new PC at work that has both
>>OS/2 (for my TCP/IP needs) and Windows (for the product I'm testing)
>>installed on it. And what was the first thing I did? I installed
>>Geoworks 2.0 on it so I'd have something useful to work with.
>>
>I would have to agree about getting work done. What I *can* do with
>Ensemble, I can do quite quickly and painlessly.
I will point out something here that hardly ever gets mention. Just to put
things in perspective.
A good windows user would not understand your point about "getting work
done" with Geos that couldn't be done as easily with Windows. The reason is
that they know how to do things easily in Windows that cannot be
accomplished in Ensemble 2.0.
For example, Ensemble has nothing equivalent to OLE or even DDE, which OS/2,
Windows, and MacOS all support. No Ensemble application T.D. has a macro
language. Almost all WinApps have macro languages, which can almost always
be made to call or at least pass data objects to other applications. Can't
do that in Ensemble (yet).
Just thought I'd point those things out.
>It is interesting to compare how much work I can get done per megabyte
>of hard disk space under GEOS to the massive space occupied by the few
>Windoze programs that I do have. :-)
New here's a real score! Impossible to argue with this.
I'd also like to hope that a Geos development tool (analagous to Visual
Basic) or macro language or scripting tool would be superior to the MS
alternatives. But we don't know that, 'cause they won't do it.
> David Northcliffe
> dln...@rigel.tamu.edu
> dln...@tamuts.tamu.edu
--
Eric Scoles
scl...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
Eric_...@f270.n2613.z1.fidonet.org
Shag
>A good windows user would not understand your point about "getting work done"
>with Geos that couldn't be done as easily with Windows. The reason is that
>they know how to do things easily in Windows that cannot be accomplished in
>Ensemble 2.0.
True, particularly since you said things that _cannot_ be accomplished. As
a counterpoint, though, there are also things that can be done in GEOS that
_cannot_ be done in other products, or can only be done by experts who are
willing to root around and edit PIF's and INI's until their fingers bleed. ;)
>For example, Ensemble has nothing equivalent to OLE or even DDE, which OS/2,
>Windows, and MacOS all support.
I've noticed this lacking also, though it doesn't really slow me down. It
does seem somewhat unusual that an OS which is so object-oriented in and of
itself doesn't have something like OLE. I'm hoping it will show up in 3.0.
>No Ensemble application T.D. has a macro language.
Buh? I guess my computer just magically connected itself today when I used
that "Dial -> Script" menu... ;)
>Almost all WinApps have macro languages, which can almost always be made to
>call or at least pass data objects to other applications. Can't do that in
>Ensemble (yet).
True... another thing that they've hinted at for 3.0 is some sort of _global_
macro/scripting language which would be very nice. I hope it happens.
>>It is interesting to compare how much work I can get done per megabyte
>>of hard disk space under GEOS to the massive space occupied by the few
>>Windoze programs that I do have. :-)
>New here's a real score! Impossible to argue with this.
Quite true! I remember a former co-worker who always seemed a little bit
upset that his Windows system only had 2MB free out of an 80MB drive and had
almost no useful software on it, while my GEOS system had everything
imaginable, _plus_ data, and had 60MB free on the same size drive.
Shag
>I'd also like to hope that a Geos development tool (analagous to Visual
>Basic) or macro language or scripting tool would be superior to the MS
>alternatives. But we don't know that, 'cause they won't do it.
Uh... not to call you a liar, but I'd like to quote something:
GEOS System Software Overview
(C) 1991, 1992 by GeoWorks.
Chapter 5 (SDK), page 5.4
Future Tool Enhancements Section
"Graphical User Interface Builder
"While the user interface compiler is easy to use, it is a trial-and-error
process at first for a programmer to learn how Generic objects appear under
a Specific user interface. As multiple user interfaces become available for
the GEOS system, it will be important to have a tool that lets a programmer
quickly see the user interface generated from the Generic UI tree in the
application. Additionally, it is desirable to let the programmer actually
build an application interface using the specific gadgets available in a
particular user interface, and have a tool that generates the Generic UI
tree that would create such an interface. GeoWorks plans to create a
graphical-user-interface builder that will let a programmer, or even a
non-technical user-interface designer, create the entire user-interface by
graphically assembling user-interface objects."
"Object Scripting Language
"One of the major goals for GEOS 3.0 is to build a system-wide scripting
language. This language will allow programmers and users to take control
of their applications by creating scripts that directly send messages to
the component objects built into applications. Users will be able to
create custom applications that script interactions between any of their
existing applications. The scripting language will be powerful enough to
facilitate entire application development using the component objects
support in the GEOS system class library. GeoWorks is hopeful that OMG
efforts to create a standardized client-server object requester protocol
will be successful. If this is achieved, the GEOS object scripting
language will either directly support the OMG protocol, or communicate
with a module supporting the protocol."
Joshua Brown
Almost all of those complaints are fixed in Geos 2.0. The text
editor is good enough, GeoWrite has preview modes, etc... The only
one that still bugs me it GeoComm... it's almost exactly the same!
-Billy
GeoForth?
Godfrey Leung
Jens-Michael Gross
Am 17 Jan 94 02:45pm, schrieb ch...@trantor.harris-atd.com an All:
c> From: ch...@melmac.Harris-ATD.com (Chuck Musciano)
c> Newsgroups: comp.os.geos
c> As I contemplate buying my next machine, probably near the end of
c> this year, I have to confess that it will run Windows. Why? Too
c> many good apps that I don't want to miss out on. My daughter is
You won't miss or you need? I won't miss a daily bath in my gold-pool, but
I don't need it (and I can't afford it too)
c> starting to use the machine (she's 2.5) and I want to run Kid Desk
Oh, The C't had a nice editorial some months ago. They talked about a
come-and-play-with-me-windows for your sandcastle-playing and a personal
version auf windows, driving your Washing-automat with your personal
parameters by just clicking on '2 socks and 1 bermuda-shorts and 4 t-shirts'
c> for her. I want Quattro Pro 5.0 for me. I want integrated sound
c> drivers and CD-ROM access. All this is available under Windows,
c> and will *never* be available for Geoworks.
Quattro pro runs without windows and it is possible to import the
spreadsheet in GEOS. Sound ha been built now and future releases for
multimedia are in ssight. CD-Rom-Access is available in Version 2.0.
c> I will continue to run Geoworks as an app under Windows, just
c> because I like GeoWrite and use it for my church's newsletter. But
c> I doubt that Geoworks
c> will be my primary boot-up environment on the next machine.
This sounds like 'I need a bus to go from bedroom to bath: going in in front
and leaving on the back. Needs no gasoline!'
c> You'll never see substantial third-party apps for Geoworks in the
c> retail channel. It's too bad, but its a fact of marketing life.
c> You will see Zoomer apps, and maybe you'll be able to run some of
c> them under Geoworks.
Sorry again, but the first programs are released or at least announced with
screenshots.
So never say never when the world isn't static.
And if the world would be static, why should anyone need anything?
c> A good newspaper is never good enough,
c> but a lousy newspaper is a joy forever. -- Garrison
c> Keillor
Right! But this is the same for an OS.
Windoze is a joy forever, but GEOS can't be good enough for you. So GEOS
must be a good OS :-)
Baerchen
** The Answer 08/15 **
(N) Nopyright 1993 by Baerchen
... Friends don't let friends use Windows
* Baerchen exclusiv via Silver Express. *
8
* Origin: GeoBox 2 (2:242/1006)
Jens-Michael Gross
Am 17 Jan 94 01:25pm, schrieb frit...@cs.umbc.edu an All:
f> From: frit...@cs.umbc.edu (Rich Fritzson)
f> Newsgroups: comp.os.geos
[...]
f> piled on top of Geos's obvious lack of commitment to the desktop
f> implementation of Ensemble did it. (When I found that the Zoomer
f> didn't even come with a piece of paper advising people that Ensemble
f> existed I knew they were through with it.)
Why shouold they mention this?
Printing the manual is the job of zoomer's producers and not the part of
GEOWORKS.
Why should they talk about the desktop-version? They could but they don't.
Ok (or not OK), but this says nothing about the plans GEOWORKS has with the
desktop-Version.
Rich Fritzson
Jens-Michael Gross <Jens-Mich...@f1006.n242.z2.fidonet.org> wrote:
>
>Am 17 Jan 94 01:25pm, schrieb frit...@cs.umbc.edu an All:
>
> f> From: frit...@cs.umbc.edu (Rich Fritzson)
> f> Newsgroups: comp.os.geos
>
> f> implementation of Ensemble did it. (When I found that the Zoomer
> f> didn't even come with a piece of paper advising people that Ensemble
> f> existed I knew they were through with it.)
>
>Why shouold they mention this?
>Printing the manual is the job of zoomer's producers and not the part of
>GEOWORKS.
>Why should they talk about the desktop-version? They could but they don't.
>Ok (or not OK), but this says nothing about the plans GEOWORKS has with the
>desktop-Version.
I am not talking about the manual. I am talking about the stack of
advertisments which you receive with many pieces of consumer
electronics, for example, I believe the Zoomer does come with an
advertisment for Quicken for Windows for people who want to
bring their pocket Quicken data onto their desktop machine. This would
have been the perfect place to put a small advertisment for the
desktop version of Ensemble so that people who like their Zoomer could
consider making a small investement and getting a completely
compatible environment for their desktop machine.
The only reason I can think of for not placing such an ad in the
Zoomer packaging is that Geos is simply not serious about marketing
Ensemble.
Chuck Musciano
> Am 17 Jan 94 02:45pm, schrieb ch...@trantor.harris-atd.com an All:
> c> this year, I have to confess that it will run Windows. Why? Too
> c> many good apps that I don't want to miss out on. My daughter is
> You won't miss or you need? I won't miss a daily bath in my gold-pool, but
> I don't need it (and I can't afford it too)
I imagine I'll be the judge of that. "Want" alone is enough to justify
my running Windows on my machine. And to be honest, there is some excellent
children's software that is moving more and more onto Windows. I won't deny
my daughter that opportunity just to remain GEOS-centric.
> Quattro pro runs without windows and it is possible to import the
> spreadsheet in GEOS. Sound ha been built now and future releases for
> multimedia are in ssight. CD-Rom-Access is available in Version 2.0.
Ha! Try importing a Quattro spreadsheet with graphics into GeoCalc.
Even my simple sheets failed to make the transition (KR-09 every time).
Beyond that, I want The very nice Quattro for Windows interface, on the
screen with all my other apps.
Do you have a version of Geoworks with sound drivers? What multimedia
support?
> c> You'll never see substantial third-party apps for Geoworks in the
> c> retail channel. It's too bad, but its a fact of marketing life.
> c> You will see Zoomer apps, and maybe you'll be able to run some of
> c> them under Geoworks.
> Sorry again, but the first programs are released or at least announced with
> screenshots.
Where are the screenshots? What apps? Can you name a single retail
vendor who'll be carrying the products?
--
Chuck Musciano ARPA: ch...@trantor.harris-atd.com
Harris Corporation AOL : CMusciano
PO Box 37, MS 16/1912 AT&T: (407) 727-6131
Melbourne, FL 32902 Fax : (407) 729-3363
A good newspaper is never good enough,
but a lousy newspaper is a joy forever. -- Garrison Keillor
Marc Mason
I'm under the impresssion that the software applications on a Zoomer
are built by Palm Computing. Quite honestly, wouldn't Palm Companion
be a better buy for a Zoomer user?
--
|Marc A. Mason | The MITRE Corporation
|Technical Assistant | 202 Burlington Road
|Technical Computing Facilities | Bedford, Massachusetts
|(617)-271-3983 | 01730 (mam...@mitre.org)(marc...@aol.com)
Shag
>This would have been the perfect place to put a small advertisment for the
>desktop version of Ensemble so that people who like their Zoomer could
>consider making a small investement and getting a completely compatible
>environment for their desktop machine.
>The only reason I can think of for not placing such an ad in the Zoomer
>packaging is that Geos is simply not serious about marketing Ensemble.
I can think of another reason - the system and environment are compatible,
but the application set is different. As far as I know, there are not any
desktop GEOS applications that exchange data with Zoomer GEOS applications.
I may be wrong, but this could be the reason.
Now, if Sharp's PT-9000 Bullet (which will essentially be running the Zoomer
applications _plus_ Ensemble 2.0 under a pen interface) doesn't include some
mention of Ensemble's availability for the desktop, I will begin to agree
with you.
Anne Page
them all! I agree that an effort should be made at the vendors. My
salesman had never heard of GEOS. I had never known anything about it
until my friend who uses it told me about it as an excellent program
with which to DTP my canine newspaper. And she was right! Since then I
have seen an equipment rental company ad offering a computer on
rent-purchase loaded with the original version. That's all I've ever
seen publicly.
* SLMR 2.1a * Knock the "t" off "can't". You can if you think you can.
Joshua Brown
>scl...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Eric Scoles) writes:
>
>>For example, Ensemble has nothing equivalent to OLE or even DDE, which OS/2,
>>Windows, and MacOS all support.
>
Of course, they haven't written any of THIER apps for it, so...
>
>True... another thing that they've hinted at for 3.0 is some sort of _global_
>macro/scripting language which would be very nice. I hope it happens.
>
Well, I'm working on GeoForth :)!
>-Shag
-Billy
I'm not Josh Brown. I'm Billy. tanksley@san_marcos.csusm.edu
Shag
>I have seen an equipment rental company ad offering a computer on
>rent-purchase loaded with the original version. That's all I've ever seen
>publicly.
Rent-purchase things and pre-loads are interesting ways to introduce people
to software. Imagine where GEOS would be without the PDA pre-loading
agreements!