MBASIC vs BBC BASIC
Richard Russell
MBASIC and BBC BASIC here (using a table of features):
http://www.bbcbasic.co.uk/bbcbasic/mbasic-vs-bbcbasic.html
This shows that in most respects BBC BASIC is more powerful than
MBASIC, despite being considerably smaller and therefore making more
memory available for the user's program/data.
Features that are identical or have equivalents in the two dialects
have not generally been listed. If you spot any errors or serious
omissions please let me know and I will correct it.
Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/
To reply by email change 'news' to my forename.
Peter Hill
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h76/skyshack/PCW_BASIC_wallchart_95.jpg
[1]
claims 4 missing functions.
CONT - use GOTO nnn
OUT port, byte - seems not in Acorn BBC Basic but Z80 PUT A,N where A
is 16 bit port addr and N is byte data (PCW didn't list IN(port), in
Z80 BBC that's N = GET(A))
NAME - *REN op sys command
RESUME - can't return to statement that caused error
Comparisons made just by looking in the manual for the same name are
quite deceiving. They found stuff like using HIMEM-TOP to find FRE,
use of INKEY$(timeout) for WAIT and ? for PEEK and POKE, yet missed
use of GOTO to CONTinue a program without clearing variables and OS
command *REN.
[1] PCW may have declared MBASIC as "standard" in '85 but there were a
1,000,000 BBC's made.
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/features/91575/bbc-basic-the-peoples-language
--
Peter Hill
Spamtrap reply domain as per NNTP-Posting-Host in header
Can of worms - what every fisherman wants.
Can of worms - what every PC owner gets!
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
1) The 5 September 2009,
--------------------
Peter Dassow wrote:
> (yes, it was named MBASIC, not BASIC-80).
Really? Interesting...
A>mbasic
BASIC-85 Rev. 5.29
[CP/M Version]
Copyright 1985-1986 (C) by Microsoft
Created: 28-Jul-85
35896 Bytes free
Ok
How curious...
------------------
(This is the last version of Microsoft BASIC, that "someone" uploaded
on the RetroArchive.Org Web site.)
So, in English, there is nothing like "Microsoft's MBASIC": the M in
MBASIC being the abbreviation of "Microsoft"... I think that this is
called a "tautology" in English. The only way, in English, to
designate it properly is "Microsoft BASIC". (Many people used "MBASIC"
as the name of the COMmand file, some using MSBASIC".)
2) During one week (that is to say: 7 days), Richard Russell talked
about the "Generic CP/M version" of BBC BASIC (Z80), that is to say:
Version 3.0.
And what is the one that he mentions in the last line of the table?
Version 2.3...
How curious...
Yours Sincerely,
Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
Richard Russell
wrote:
> And what is the one that he mentions in the last line of the table?
> Version 2.3...
Now corrected to v3.0. I had realised the mistake before you pointed
it out, but had not got around to fixing it until now.
I've spent most of the day putting the documentation for the generic
CP/M version of BBC BASIC (Z80) online. You can find it here:
http://www.bbcbasic.co.uk/bbcbasic/mancpm/
This has been generated from the BBC BASIC (86) documentation so don't
be too surprised if you find references to MS-DOS which I've missed in
the editing. Please let me know if you find any.
Peter Dassow
> Just 2 remarks:
>
> 1) The 5 September 2009,
> --------------------
> Peter Dassow wrote:
>
>> (yes, it was named MBASIC, not BASIC-80).
>
> Really? Interesting...
>
> A>mbasic
>
> BASIC-85 Rev. 5.29
> [CP/M Version]
> Copyright 1985-1986 (C) by Microsoft
> Created: 28-Jul-85
> 35896 Bytes free
> Ok
>
> How curious...
> ------------------
>
> (This is the last version of Microsoft BASIC, that "someone" uploaded
> on the RetroArchive.Org Web site.)
>
> So, in English, there is nothing like "Microsoft's MBASIC": the M in
> MBASIC being the abbreviation of "Microsoft"... I think that this is
> called a "tautology" in English. The only way, in English, to
> designate it properly is "Microsoft BASIC". (Many people used "MBASIC"
> as the name of the COMmand file, some using MSBASIC".)
It's again remarkable what kind of "problems" you would like to solve.
Thank God, I see no real problem in that, as I already wrote, nothing
depends on that. So even if you are right, it's not worth to be
mentioned, and so it does not matter if it's BASIC-80 or MBASIC.
All of us *except you* will understand it if someone is using the term
"MBASIC" what is meant and I guess other topics are more interesting.
So please try to focus your criticism on functional comparisons or
missing information, that's what I like to read.
Regards
Peter
Richard Russell
'Microsoft BASIC' denotes any of a large number of BASICs, from early
8K BASICs right through to Visual Basic (and even VB.NET), so is far
too imprecise for the topic under discussion. MBASIC however refers
to a *specific* small set of Microsoft BASICs that run under CP/M:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBASIC
On my comparison page it is described as 'Microsoft's MBASIC' (not
'Microsoft MBASIC'). This ensures that it won't be confused with
other MBASICs, e.g.:
http://www.basicmicro.com/MBasic--PICmicro_c_49.html
Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> I've spent most of the day putting the documentation for
> the generic CP/M version of BBC BASIC (Z80) online.
According to James Moxham, BBC BASIC (Z80) is so tiny that no doc is
needed... So, why bother?
However, I have finally found the original documentation. When Katzy
mentioned a "Z80 BBC BASIC", I wondered what was it?
I made a search, and finally managed to find one "Z80 BBC BASIC User
Guide" at:
http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/bbc/docs.php3
The image of the book is *TWICE* the size of the text...
It is named "Z80basic.rtf".
Checking the Internet, I found it at:
http://www.mdfsnet.f9.co.uk/Docs/Books/Z80CoPro/
(Some people may remember that we have been searching for this book
during more than a week, by now... This must be English "fair play"?)
Saving this text into ASCII, its size goes down to only... 25K!
(According to its table of contents, there are 20 pages.)
So, a "Tiny DOC" for a "Tiny BASIC": the perfect combination!
Congratulations to the author!
Richard Russell
wrote:
> Richard Russell wrote:
> > I've spent most of the day putting the documentation for
> > the generic CP/M version of BBC BASIC (Z80) online.
>
> According to James Moxham, BBC BASIC (Z80) is so tiny that no doc is
> needed... So, why bother?
As somebody else put it (not very politely) are you nuts? You have
been complaining consistently for the last few days about the lack of
documentation for the generic CP/M version of BBC BASIC (Z80). Now
I've provided it, you say it wasn't needed. D'oh!
> I made a search, and finally managed to find one "Z80 BBC BASIC User
> Guide" at:
> http://www.nvg.ntnu.no/bbc/docs.php3
>
> It is named "Z80basic.rtf".
> Checking the Internet, I found it at:
> http://www.mdfsnet.f9.co.uk/Docs/Books/Z80CoPro/
If you'd bothered to *read* that file you'd know that it only
describes the *differences* between Z80 BBC BASIC and 6502 BBC BASIC.
In fact its contents are similar to what can be found in the
BBCBASIC.TXT file within my 'bbccpm.zip', and which you and others
have (rightly) been saying is inadequate.
> Saving this text into ASCII, its size goes down to only... 25K!
> (According to its table of contents, there are 20 pages.)
The total size of the HTML documentation for BBC BASIC (Z80) I put
online yesterday is 488 Kbytes! For comparison, the documentation for
'BBC BASIC for Windows' is 1.4 Mbytes.
> So, a "Tiny DOC" for a "Tiny BASIC": the perfect combination!
As I have demonstrated, BBC BASIC is in some important respects
considerably more powerful than MBASIC. In terms of file size it is
rather smaller (15K compared with 24K) but that is presumably because
it is more efficiently coded. That extra 9K of user memory is very
useful on a typical CP/M system!
For those with a *genuine* interest in BBC BASIC on CP/M systems here
again is the link to the documentation:
http://www.bbcbasic.co.uk/bbcbasic/mancpm/
Katzy
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France wrote in message
<7efcd2ba-a65a-4a84...@o9g2000vbj.googlegroups.com>...
>Richard Russell wrote:
>
>> I've spent most of the day putting the documentation for
>> the generic CP/M version of BBC BASIC (Z80) online.
>
>According to James Moxham, BBC BASIC (Z80) is so tiny that no doc is
>needed... So, why bother?
>
>However, I have finally found the original documentation. When Katzy
>mentioned a "Z80 BBC BASIC", I wondered what was it?
>I made a search, and finally managed to find one "Z80 BBC BASIC User
>Guide"
I KNEW you would find it... :)
Bye, Katzy.
Katzy
Richard Russell wrote in message
<9e412fc0-32d9-472a...@p32g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>...
On Dec 5, 7:42 pm, "Mr Emmanuel Roche, France" <roche...@laposte.net>
wrote:
> The only way, in English, to designate it properly is "Microsoft BASIC".
-'Microsoft BASIC' denotes any of a large number of BASICs, from early
8K BASICs right through to Visual Basic (and even VB.NET), so is far
too imprecise for the topic under discussion. MBASIC however refers
to a *specific* small set of Microsoft BASICs that run under CP/M:
Sometimes MBASIC stands for Mallard Basic too.
Bye, Katzy.
James Moxham (Dr_Acula)
there were a number of locally made computers, our school chose the
BBC for the computer suite and filled classrooms with them. Imagine
over 500 kids pushing these machines to the limit. Pretty soon there
were hacks to BBC basic that were taking over other computers via the
school network. The people who were best at this have gone on to have
very successful careers in IT.
I'm particularly interested in the inline assembly coding. I know it
runs on the N8VEM and a group of us over at the propeller forum are
trying to get it running on a Z80 software emulation on the propeller
chip http://www.smarthome.viviti.com/propeller
(The 40 pin chip in the photo is the propeller. No Z80!)
The emulation works perfectly for most CP/M programs, but most were
written in 8080 rather than Z80. We have a little bug to squish to get
it running all the Z80 opcodes, and BBC Basic isn't running quite yet
but we are getting close. Just a matter of testing each instruction
over and over.
BBC Basic could also be a useful stepping stone to getting a 6502
emulation working on the propeller using the same board. Some of the
6502 instructions are already done.
The updated documentation is very much appreciated.
Bill Leary
news:46OdnbCjEL0RP4bW...@giganews.com...
> Sometimes MBASIC stands for Mallard Basic too.
Micropolis Extended BASIC, which ran under the Micropolis Disk Operating
System (MDOS), was also called MBASIC.
Still, when "MBASIC" is mentioned most people with a background with
Microsoft, or especially with CP/M, will think of Microsoft's series of CP/M
BASICs.
- Bill
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> As somebody else put it (not very politely) are you nuts? You have
> been complaining consistently for the last few days about the lack of
> documentation for the generic CP/M version of BBC BASIC (Z80). Now
> I've provided it, you say it wasn't needed. D'oh!
1) Yes, I must be nuts, since I am the first man to notice that BBC
BASIC (Z80) had no documentation during 10 years...
2) "Now I've provided it, you say it wasn't needed. D'oh!"
You republished my lines:
> > According to James Moxham, BBC BASIC (Z80) is so tiny that no doc is
> > needed... So, why bother?
I am Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France, not Dr. James Moxham, Australia.
You have offered one BBC BASIC (Z80) during 10 years without
documentation. I noted this, then searched, and searched. All this
work to find that the file was named "Z80 BBC BASIC" instead... Of
course, you said nothing during those 10 days!
"D'oh!" Indeed!
3)
> As I have demonstrated, BBC BASIC is in some important respects
> considerably more powerful than MBASIC. In terms of file size it is
> rather smaller (15K compared with 24K) but that is presumably because
> it is more efficiently coded. That extra 9K of user memory is very
> useful on a typical CP/M system!
No, you have demonstrated nothing.
You are comparing apples with oranges.
Microsoft BASIC was written in 8080 code. BBC BASIC (Z80), as its name
implies, is written in Z-80 code.
You provided a Wikipedia link saying that "MBASIC was an important
tool during the era of 8-bit CP/M computers."
As far as I know, BBC BASIC originated from the Acorn BBC
microcomputer.
MBASIC was the standard under CP/M and on many microcomputers in ROM.
It was not tied to one particular computer maker, contrary to BBC
BASIC.
Maybe some English children discovered BBC BASIC in school, so are
suffering from the "duckling syndrome".
But I can assure you that it is not the case elsewhere in the world,
like in France. Me, I am not "mentally mutilated beyond hope of
regeneration", contrary to some carpet seller...
Richard Russell
<moxh...@internode.on.net> wrote:
> BBC Basic is a great program. Even though we are in Australia and
> there were a number of locally made computers, our school chose the
> BBC for the computer suite and filled classrooms with them.
I think Australia and New Zealand were the main markets after the UK
itself. The BBC Micro was also popular in The Netherlands, for some
reason, but apparently not in France (!). However, this French site
specifically highlights BBC BASIC on its 'BASIC Language' page:
http://www.genista.net/basic/bas-000.htm
> Imagine over 500 kids pushing these machines to the limit. Pretty
> soon there were hacks to BBC basic that were taking over other
> computers via the school network. The people who were best at
> this have gone on to have very successful careers in IT.
The 'BBC Micro generation' is generally believed responsible for many
important developments in the fields of computing and IT, and the UK
still leads the world in the development of computer games largely
through experience gained on that platform. Of course the ARM
processor, used in most mobile phones and with sales running at
roughly a *billion* per annum, was a spin-off of the BBC Micro
project.
> I'm particularly interested in the inline assembly coding.
BBC BASIC is, as far as I know, unique in being an *interpreted* BASIC
with an embedded assembler. The fact that the source code is
assembled *every time the program is run* (the assembler is very fast)
leads to some useful performance benefits.
In particular the assembled code can vary depending on values known
only at run time, so for example a value that would have to be a
*variable* (read from memory) in a conventional implementation can be
an *immediate constant* in BBC BASIC assembler. That's a feature you
don't normally get with an assembly-language implementation, other
than by using Self-Modifying Code.
> The emulation works perfectly for most CP/M programs, but most were
> written in 8080 rather than Z80. We have a little bug to squish to get
> it running all the Z80 opcodes, and BBC Basic isn't running quite yet
I'm afraid that I tended to squeeze every last drop of performance out
of my Z80 code, so BBC BASIC is probably more fussy than most programs
in requiring the instructions to work exactly as they are supposed
to. Incidentally a common trap that people fall into is to emulate LD
A,R as LD A,0 on the basis that nobody can possibly be using the R
(refresh) register in their code. BBC BASIC does - to seed the random
number generator!
> BBC Basic could also be a useful stepping stone to getting a 6502
> emulation working on the propeller using the same board.
The well-defined and documented interface between the 'language' and
the 'OS' on the BBC Micro makes it much easier to port 6502 BBC BASIC
to another platform than would otherwise be the case.
> The updated documentation is very much appreciated.
Thank you. If you spot any errors or serious omissions let me know.
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> I think Australia and New Zealand were the main markets after the UK
> itself. The BBC Micro was also popular in The Netherlands, for some
> reason, but apparently not in France (!). However, this French site
> specifically highlights BBC BASIC on its 'BASIC Language' page:
>
> http://www.genista.net/basic/bas-000.htm
Wondering who could be the eccentric behind this Web site (The Web
page you mention displays the "Union Jack"... in France?!?), I made a
search.
http://www.genista.net/legal.htm
Other domains: genista.co.uk, genista.org.uk...
Président-fondateur, directeur des publications : Guy L. Schaffner,
Professeur d'anglais
It is not clear if he is an Englishman teaching English in France, or
a Frenchman with a German name teaching English.
What is sure is that he registered legally a "cultural association":
Genista, and is a "ham" (amateur radio): F6KNN
Genista
c/o Guy L. Schaffner
39 rue Françis POULENC
34970 LATTES
(Note that he uses "L." normally a characteristic of Americans. Nobody
writes his name like that, in France. We descend from the Romans, so
use "Praenomen Nomen".)
Conclusion: If you can only find an Englishman in France using BBC
BASIC, what does it mean? Didn't you tell us repeatedly that BBC BASIC
was superior to everything else? France has the same population size
than England. How comes that nobody uses it, except in England and its
former white colonies? Is it rational?
Are the 6 Billions people living outside of England wrong?
Or are the 60 Millions (Sorry: I checked (Wikipedia): England has only
51 Millions inhabitants (2008), versus 64 Millions in France.)
Englishmem the only ones to use BBC BASIC? Then, why? Were they so
much traumatised by their experience in school with it that they are
suffering from the "duckling syndrome"?
Peter Hill
<roch...@laposte.net> wrote:
>Conclusion: If you can only find an Englishman in France using BBC
>BASIC, what does it mean? Didn't you tell us repeatedly that BBC BASIC
>was superior to everything else? France has the same population size
>than England. How comes that nobody uses it, except in England and its
>former white colonies? Is it rational?
Maybe France didn't have a school computer education project in the
early 80's? So no programmers. (though UK quality may be suspect after
exposure to BASIC)
What computer did France put in School Classrooms in 1981/2/3/4? Once
that brief time period was over computers became tools to run word
processors, databases, spreadsheets or CAI and not for learning how to
program.
Or was programming discouraged in preference for USERS on dumb
terminals?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minitel
Unlike dumb terminals the BBC was able to access Prestel (could
download code though Prestel) and could be programmed.
<http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B75C7-49D2FD8-17&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=3d0cef34842683896facf72171f80056>
That suggests that programming was to be discouraged - was this made
French computer education policy? He wanted USERS, not programmers
that wanted his job.
Did France have the 1,000,000's / year sale of "home" computers in
those few years when the Spectrum/BBC/Commodore 64 etc where selling
out in the UK? By 1985 13% of UK homes had one.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2077986.stm
I suspect there was a "don't speak French" problem. I'm sure I
remember reports of French versions of BASIC and other computer
languages. Maybe that got as far as passing some laws baring imports
that didn't "speak French"?
Jonathan Graham Harston
> 1) Yes, I must be nuts, since I am the first man to notice that BBC
> BASIC (Z80) had no documentation during 10 years...
Z88 First Edition 1989
Einstein First Edition 1984
Torch First Edition 1982
> It was not tied to one particular computer maker, contrary to BBC
> BASIC.
available for 6502 on the Acorn BBC/Master, Acorn Atom, 80186 on
the Acorn Master 512, PC-DOS, PC-Windows, Victor Sirius, Research
Machines Nimbus, Wren Executive, ARM on the ARM Development System,
Springboard, BeagleBoard, various mobile phones and PDAs, my
Blackberry Curve, various set-top boxes, Acorn Archimedes, Acorn
RISC PC, Z80 on Acorn BBC Z80 CoPro, Acorn CPM Z80 CoPro, Amstrad
CPC, Amstrad Notebook, Generic CPM Systems, Tatung Einstein,
Microscribe 600, Research Machines 480Z, Sinclair ZX Spectrum,
Sinclair Z88, Texas Instruments Calculators, Tiki, Torch, 32000 on
the Acorn 32016 CoPro, 68000 on Apple Mac, Atari ST, Commodore
Amiga, PDP-11, Brandy Basic on anything that can compile C and
various Custom and Homebrew hardware.
What's MBASIC available on?
BBC BASIC.
Probably the fourth most ported program in the world.
--
J.G.Harston - j...@arcade.demon.co.uk - mdfs.net/User/JGH
BBC IDE Hard Drive Interface - http://mdfs.net/Info/Comp/BBC/IDE
Jonathan Graham Harston
> Checking the Internet, I found it at:
> http://www.mdfsnet.f9.co.uk/Docs/Books/Z80CoPro/
mdfs.net, not www.mdfsnet.f9.co.uk
> Saving this text into ASCII, its size goes down to only... 25K!
long. It's one of the things on my long list of documents to tidy
up into archive quality. Also, bear in mind, it's an introcuction
to Z80 BASIC for people who already knwo 6502 BASIC, so is
intentionally short.RISC OS Choices System - http://mdfs.net/Software/RISCOS
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
Very interesting points you raised.
> Maybe France didn't have a school computer education project in the
> early 80's? So no programmers. (though UK quality may be suspect after
> exposure to BASIC)
At the contrary. Many years ago, I mentioned that I prefered the books
by Jacques Arsac to "The Art of Computer Programming" by Don Knuth. He
was a high-level public servant working in the Ministry of Education
(the biggest administration of France, with more than 2 Millions
persons working for it). He tirelessly advocated for a programming
exam during the "Baccalauréat" (the diploma needed to do University
studies in France). But his work happened during some very special
years, in France.
> What computer did France put in School Classrooms in 1981/2/3/4? Once
> that brief time period was over computers became tools to run word
> processors, databases, spreadsheets or CAI and not for learning how to
> program.
During this period, something big happened in France.
Explanation: in 1981, the Socialists came to power. They nationalised
lots of banks, big industries, etc. They had not been to power since
World War II, so simply applied all the measures that they had
promised during those 30 years...
2 years later, in 1983, France was so bankrupt that President
Miterrand had a hard choice to make: leave the European Monetary
System, or becoming "capitalist". He chose the latter, and it has been
a very, very big shock to the French Socialists. They were thinking
that their theories were leading the world, and suddenly they had to
apply "capitalist" laws that they were officially condemning!
Even more strange: following these "capitalist" laws, the stock
exchange boomed, and people were earning more money from shares than
from production! Many factories (that is to say: workers, the people
that, officially, the Socialists represent) went bankrupt... thanks to
those Socialist laws!
> Or was programming discouraged in preference for USERS on dumb
> terminals?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minitel
> Unlike dumb terminals the BBC was able to access Prestel (could
> download code though Prestel) and could be programmed.
Haha! Interesting perspective, seen from the outside. It is true that
French administrations have an incredible power over its citizens.
There are 6 millions civil servants, for a population of 64 Millions
people: that is to say: one person out of ten is working for the
state. And the French state has a very long, powerful arm...
(One day, I asked a French person how much English persons had the
special status of legal civil servants: this person answered: "2
Millions". This person could not believe that a country roughly the
size of France only had 60,000 civil servants (at the time). All the
others were simply workers that did not need to have a special status
to work, like postmans or teachers. In France, they are hired for life
(40 years), then are paid during their retirement (about 20 years).
They need to behave really bad to be get rid of. A famous case was Mr.
Boudarel, who was condemned to death for being a kapo in a Viet Cong
camp. (278 prisoneers, out of 320, died when he was there. Many had
been tortured by him.) Following an amnesty law, he came back very
discreetly in France, and found without any problem (he was Communist)
a teacher job at the University Paris-VII... Recognised one day by one
of his victims, the French administration refused to condemn him. He
died peacefully, paid by the state.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Boudarel )
> <http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B75C7-49D2FD...>
> That suggests that programming was to be discouraged - was this made
> French computer education policy? He wanted USERS, not programmers
> that wanted his job.
This article is VERY interesting, because it was written by one of the
protagonists that were fighting Mr. Arsac. Please allow me to quote
it.
"After a description of the guidelines along which the first
experiment (1970–1976) of CAI was organized in France, this experiment
is described in detail (training of teachers, hardware configurations,
development of a new french-speaking programming language, development
of courseware, etc.)"
That is to say: France started playing with computers for education in
1970. This is the first part of the article.
"The second part of the paper describes the recent “10,000
microcomputers plan” and shows that the teaching of computer science
in secondary schools will not solve the problem to prepare students to
live in a “computerized society” because that society will not be
characterized by the ubiquitous presence of the computer but by the
ubiquitous presence of sophisticated tools and services based on
computers. The challenge is then to familiarize students with the use
of these tools through their use in CAI."
That is to say: in 1981, when the Socialists came to power, this plan
was being implemented in French schools. However, this man was one of
the fierest ennemies of Mr. Arsac (they had homeric discussions about
what was really needed to help French pupils learn to use a computer.
Mr. Arsac wanted them to program, and even created a Programming
Language (LSE = Language Symbolique d'Enseignement
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSE_(langage_de_programmation)
Yet another PL based on BASIC.)
Mr. Hebenstreit, on the contrary, was convinced that computers would
be nowhere to be seen, but that CAI (Computer-Aided Instruction) was
coming to revolutionarize education.
I particularly like his "that society will not be characterized by the
ubiquitous presence of the computer" since I have more computers at
home than any other tool.
But he also wrote "that society will be characterized by the
ubiquitous presence of sophisticated tools and services based on
computers. The challenge is then to familiarize students with the use
of these tools through their use in CAI." In a sense, this is true,
since one of the logic consequences of computers is communications,
that is to say: the Internet. The problem is that this sentence means
that knowing how to use Google is enough, while Mr. Arsac thought that
it was more interesting to know how to program a computer, rather than
to know how to use it.
> Did France have the 1,000,000's / year sale of "home" computers in
> those few years when the Spectrum/BBC/Commodore 64 etc where selling
> out in the UK? By 1985 13% of UK homes had one.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2077986.stm
The computerization of French schools happened in some very turmoil
years, so I don't know exactly the details. What is sure is that
Thomson was given a blank check to produce computers (M0-5, TO-7,
TO-7-70, etc). But I don't know how many.
> I suspect there was a "don't speak French" problem. I'm sure I
> remember reports of French versions of BASIC and other computer
> languages. Maybe that got as far as passing some laws baring imports
> that didn't "speak French"?
YES!!! Right on target! Since World War II, there is a law in
existence, that everything written in English (even Hollywood films)
must first be translated into French before being sold (Films are
"dubbed". I have never "heard" a film in English, in my life.). As a
result, many things are simply not imported, the cost of translation
being thought to be more expensive than the benefits. When I was
working in Paris, 30 years ago, I was a curiosity because I was
reading/writing English. Many programmers (at the time) were self-
taughts that did not know English. So, of course, they had
difficulties understanding technical docs coming from English
countries. Several times, upon realising that I was reading English
without problem and were also good at French language, I was
officially put in charge of translating English manuals into French.
In the end, due to the bankruptcy of France caused by the policy of
the Socialists, computerization of French schools was abruptly
stopped.
For years, I have met educators still using those old 8-bit micros.
Each time, they told me the same story: under MS-DOS (and, later,
Windows), there is absolutely no equivalent of those old programs.
Why? Because, at the time, there was *NOTHING*! That is to say:
teachers were obliged to write their own programs. Some were so good,
the teachers tought, that they kept using them, despite the flooding
of "blue whales".
However, these "IBM Clowns" were (initially) so expensive that only
companies could afford to buy one (so schools only bought a few) and,
even more important, had no competing software: The IBM PC only had
"office" software: word-processor, spreadsheet, database, while the
teachers needed a tool to teach arithmetics and conjugaison, history
and geography, etc. That sort of things.
That's why I have seen 8-bit micros used (sometimes very discreetly
from the administration) during 20 years after their "official" death.
Whew! What a story! (This must show my age!)
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> BBC BASIC is not tied to one particular computer maker, it is
> available for 6502 on the Acorn BBC/Master, Acorn Atom, 80186 on
> the Acorn Master 512, PC-DOS, PC-Windows, Victor Sirius, Research
> Machines Nimbus, Wren Executive, ARM on the ARM Development System,
> Springboard, BeagleBoard, various mobile phones and PDAs, my
> Blackberry Curve, various set-top boxes, Acorn Archimedes, Acorn
> RISC PC, Z80 on Acorn BBC Z80 CoPro, Acorn CPM Z80 CoPro, Amstrad
> CPC, Amstrad Notebook, Generic CPM Systems, Tatung Einstein,
> Microscribe 600, Research Machines 480Z, Sinclair ZX Spectrum,
> Sinclair Z88, Texas Instruments Calculators, Tiki, Torch, 32000 on
> the Acorn 32016 CoPro, 68000 on Apple Mac, Atari ST, Commodore
> Amiga, PDP-11, Brandy Basic on anything that can compile C and
> various Custom and Homebrew hardware.
Hum... Let's see:
6502 on the Acorn BBC/Master = English micro
Acorn Atom = English micro
80186 on the Acorn Master 512 = English micro
PC-DOS (not MS-DOS?) = Generic standard
PC-Windows = Generic standard
Victor Sirius = Belgian micro (I seem to remember)
Research Machines Nimbus = English micro
Wren Executive = English micro
ARM on the ARM Development System = English thing
Springboard ? (Never heard about this one in France. English?)
BeagleBoard ? (Never heard about this one in France. English?)
various mobile phones and PDAs = Universal standard
my Blackberry Curve ? (Is it generic?)
various set-top boxes ? (Are they generic?)
Acorn Archimedes = English micro
Acorn RISC PC = English micro
Z80 on Acorn BBC Z80 CoPro = English micro
Acorn CPM Z80 CoPro = English micro
Amstrad CPC = English micro
Amstrad Notebook = English micro
Generic CPM Systems = English micro
Tatung Einstein = English micro
Microscribe 600 = English micro
Research Machines 480Z = English micro
Sinclair ZX Spectrum = English micro
Sinclair Z88 = English micro
Texas Instruments Calculators = Generic standard
Tiki = Norwegian micro
Torch = English micro
32000 on the Acorn 32016 CoPro = English micro
68000 on Apple Mac, Atari ST, Commodore Amiga = 68000 = Generic CPU
PDP-11 = Generic computer (VAX?)
Brandy Basic on anything that can compile C = Generic standard
various Custom and Homebrew hardware = hardware-dependent
This is curious: in your list, I can spot 20 times "English micro",
but only one Belgian and one Norwegian micro...
(Except "Generic" standards, standards that even England was obliged
to recognise.)
I don't know what is the population of Belgium and Norway, but I don't
think that they constitute the majority on the "Continent"...
So, many thanks for proving that BBC BASIC is an English eccentricity.
Ole Christensen
> Victor Sirius = Belgian micro (I seem to remember)
Just have to correct You mind on this one.
Please find the story on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius_Systems_Technology
<ole>
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> > Victor Sirius = Belgian micro (I seem to remember)
>
> Just have to correct you on this one.
> Please find the story on:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius_Systems_Technology
Damned! Am i getting old?
I was thinking of:
Vector International
Research Park
B-3030 Leuven
Belgium
(The European distributor of Digital Research.)
Apart that, what are you doing?
What about translating into English the COMPIS COMAL doc during this
Winter?
Ole Christensen
> Hello, Ole!
Hello Emmanuel,
> Apart that, what are you doing?
Beside from dropping into this NG from time to time,
just to see if You have manage to put Your head into
something where You can't get it out, I'm "planning"
on an mm/sd-stick interface for my old CP/M computers,
will i use an PIC16 ?, or maybe an AVR and then put net
on ?,... the "planning" can go on for years or decades...!
> What about translating into English the COMPIS COMAL doc
> during this Winter?
I don't know of any "COMPIS COMAL doc" in Swedish,
or "RC-Partner COMAL doc" in Danish for that matter,
but if You manages to find it then...
What i don't understand are: Where are the "Language Reference"?
Beside from the doc for Amiga & C=64 You can find on the net
there are this in Swedish:
unicomalkompendium.pdf
the translation of a couple of paragraph from page 1 tell:
---begin citat---
Kompendium i COMAL
UniCOMAL-version
Martin Fahlgren -91
The modern structured BASIC dialects, which include Comal,
has been that much justified criticism against the old,
more or less primitive BASIC dialects
(which were common on so called "home computers"):
* The programs are difficult to read (cryptic) and therefore
difficult to understand, inform ("debug") and change.
* Many important programming problems are very difficult
(some nearly impossible) to solve.
* It is difficult to learn and to teach good programming habits.
The "unstructured" BASIC dialects is for these reasons (and a few more)
inappropriate league beginner language. There is considerable risk that
those who learn to "program" with such language, especially if done
without expert guidance, simply become bad programmers.
And not enough with that: It is difficult to "retrain" those who put
themselves in the habits of primitive BASIC dialects invites.
It has gone so far as to representatives of the computer industry,
that it is better that a new employee can not program at all than
that he learned to "program" ordinary (read: "bad") BASIC.
The above was written the word program in quotes. In fact, it is often
a mistake to talk about Programming in such cases. These are "coding".
Programming is clearly more than to perform a more or less
effective programs in any programming language,
which hopefully this course will clarify.
---end citat---
Is there anything to be learned from this...?
(could old dog learn to ...?)
<ole>
Richard Russell
> The "unstructured" BASIC dialects is for these reasons (and a few more)
> inappropriate league beginner language. There is considerable risk that
> those who learn to "program" with such language, especially if done
> without expert guidance, simply become bad programmers.
Absolutely! This is why the BBC insisted (in 1980!) that the BASIC
for the BBC Microcomputer must be a *structured* BASIC. In particular
it must not require the use of GOTO or line numbers, and must support
*local* variables in subroutines (procedures) and functions. BBC
BASIC was one of the first home-computer BASICs to have these
features.
It's true that early versions of BBC BASIC still needed the lines to
be numbered, because that was the only way you could edit the program,
but you never needed to refer to the line numbers with GOTO or GOSUB.
In more recent versions of BBC BASIC you don't need line numbers at
all.
Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/
John Crane
"Mr Emmanuel Roche, France" <roch...@laposte.net> wrote in message
news:83be6601-18d8-4162...@m25g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
<snipped a great story by ER>
Sounds like the old problem of dictating change/progress/creativity/etc.
from the top-down. Too rigid and short-sighted. Bureaucrats dictating
technology & inventing computer languages - come on!
Very differerent from the bottom-up approach that happened here in the USA.
Everything was more fluid, and therefore had the chance to evolve into
something more lasting, and IMHO more worthwhile.
ER brings up a good point - there's no reason why 8-bit machines can't be
used for education. The latest & greatest machines have too many features.
All that detracts from learning the basics. Something like the old Heathkit
ET-3400 ( a 6800 CPU, a few K of RAM, keypad & LED interface, and
breadboard area) will allow the novice to learn assembly/machine code, and
experiment with simple interfacing to a microprocessor. Not to mention the
"hands-on" learning experience that you don't get from simulators. Sure,
you can "graduate" to more modern machines later. But a simple machine like
this is ideal for someone just starting to explore.
-John
James Moxham (Dr_Acula)
have an 8080 software emulation working very well but some of the Z80
opcodes haven't been coded yet (EX AF,AF' for instance) as there was a
thought that maybe no-one used them! So knowing that BBC Basic uses a
range of Z80 instructions is very helpful and now we just have to go
through and write the code for each one. The emulation stops when it
gets an instruction that isn't written yet so it is possible to work
through them one at a time. The LD IX group will be next.
Interestingly, I used the R register as a random number generator in
an SBaasic program I wrote about 4 months ago. It involved writing an
assembly program, compiling it, getting the hex data and then manually
poking it in from SBasic. It took a long time and inline assembly
would be so much more elegant. So there is an incentive to get BBC
Basic working.
The propeller emulation is also running a VGA (or TV) display and it
can handle colour. I've had it running green on black but people told
me it looked too old fashioned so I changed it to white on blue. But
my memory of BBC Basic was that it handled Colour, and indeed, that
was one attraction to writing games. Of course, Mbasic can do colour
too if you want to send VT100 escape sequences, but it would be great
to port some BBC Basic programs over without having to rewrite them.
Back to coding...
Richard Russell
<moxh...@internode.on.net> wrote:
> some of the Z80 opcodes haven't been coded yet (EX AF,AF' for
> instance) as there was a thought that maybe no-one used them!
EX AF,AF' is a really useful instruction! I've counted the number of
times it's used in BBC BASIC(Z80): 35 in all.
> The propeller emulation is also running a VGA (or TV) display and it
> can handle colour. I've had it running green on black but people told
> me it looked too old fashioned so I changed it to white on blue. But
> my memory of BBC Basic was that it handled Colour, and indeed, that
> was one attraction to writing games.
In the generic CP/M version of BBC BASIC all the colour and sound
statements are vectored to the 'Sorry' error message. To use them I'd
probably need to build you a special version.
Jim Jackson
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France <roch...@laposte.net> wrote:
> > What computer did France put in School Classrooms in 1981/2/3/4?
Any chance you could answer the question here? I for one would be
interested. If you don't know, just say, but I see lots of irrelevant
stuff and no reall computer info.
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Boudarel )
> experiment (1970?1976) of CAI was organized in France, this experiment
> is described in detail (training of teachers, hardware configurations,
> development of a new french-speaking programming language, development
> of courseware, etc.)"
> That is to say: France started playing with computers for education in
> 1970. This is the first part of the article.
> "The second part of the paper describes the recent ?10,000
> microcomputers plan? and shows that the teaching of computer science
> in secondary schools will not solve the problem to prepare students to
> live in a ?computerized society? because that society will not be
Jonathan Graham Harston
> > http://www.genista.net/basic/bas-000.htm
>
> Wondering who could be the eccentric behind this Web site (The Web
> page you mention displays the "Union Jack"... in France?!?), I made a
the stern of a ship, and the Union Jack is the cross of St. George
with the Union Flag in the upper flagstaff quadrant.
> Pr=E9sident-fondateur, directeur des publications : Guy L. Schaffner,
> It is not clear if he is an Englishman teaching English in France, or
> a Frenchman with a German name teaching English.
corrections he made to my French article on the UK tercentenary two
years ago.Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust
him to look out for himself honestly. It's when you appeal to his
honour or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
Jonathan Graham Harston
> 68000 on Apple Mac, Atari ST, Commodore Amiga = 68000 = Generic CPU
said:
Z80 - generic CPU
6502 - generic CPU
32000 - generic CPU
ARM - generic CPULiberal Democrat Parliamentary Candidate for Sheffield Brightside
Jonathan Graham Harston
> have an 8080 software emulation working very well but some of the Z80
> opcodes haven't been coded yet (EX AF,AF' for instance) as there was a
http://mdfs.net/Apps/Emulators/Tube/cZ80Tube for inspiration in
implementing a Z80 CPU engine.
> my memory of BBC Basic was that it handled Colour, and indeed, that
colour. BBC BASIC is a programming language, it handles ABSOLUTELY
NO input/output, it passes ABSOLUTELY ALL calls on to whatever
operating system (or OS veneer) it happens to be running on to deal
with the I/O.
Taking the COLOUR command as an example.
BASIC parses the expression to read a single numeric parameter.
BASIC then passes this numeric parameter to the underlying OS to
let the underlying OS deal with it.
If the underlying OS is the BBC MOS, it sends &10,&nn to the VDU
drivers.
If the underlying OS is the Amstrad CPC, it sends &0E,&nn or
&0F,&nn AND 127 to the VDU drivers.
If the underlying OS is DOS/Windows, it sends &10,&nn to a VDU
emulator layer which calls appropriate entries to the video
drivers.
For your purposes, probably the easiest method is to either
implement an environment that looks like CP/M and send all
character output via CON_OUT via CALL 5 and have the console
understand BBC VDU sequences, or implement an environment that
looks like the BBC Z80 CoPro with an entry block at &FFC0-&FFF,
send all the character output via OSWRCH at &FFEE and have OSWRCH
understand the BBC VDU sequences. It lets you leave BASIC untouched
and just leaves you to implement the MOS interface.
I used the second method for the ZX Spectrum, as it was easier to
implement a MOS interface that looked like the BBC MOS interface as
I'd already done it before for cZ80Tube./* Real programmers don't use comments. */
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> > > What computer did France put in School Classrooms in 1981/2/3/4?
>
> Any chance you could answer the question here? I for one would be
> interested. If you don't know, just say, but I see lots of irrelevant
> stuff and no reall computer info.
Hum... This is a very specialized question, and I am afraid that I
don't know the details.
In 1981, I was not a teacher (but computerization of French schools
started in 1976: Remember, France was one of the first countries in
the world to produce a microcomputer ("MBC Alcyane", in 1974? One of
its creators (the "B" in "M.B.C." wrote the first best-seller book
about computers in France: "Un Fil d'Ariane", Jean-Pierre Bouhot.
There were many editions. He was writing a column in a French magazine
named "L'Informatique Professionnelle". Today, in France, the "MBC
Alcyane" is, by far, the most sought after microcomputer. No other
micro (not even the "Apple I", which was created several years later)
can reach such a high price.).
In 1983, started the French equivalent of "BYTE": "Science et Vie
Micro" ("Science et Vie" is the French equivalent of "American
Scientific": they noticed the boom in microcomputers, so decided to
launch a magazine on the subject). Before there were a handful of
limited circulation magazines about microcomputers but, since they
were not a market, they were not "generalist". "Science et Vie Micro"
explained micros to everybody, so had to have really good articles, at
the beginning. (Now, it is only advertisements.) I have all the first
issues of "Science et Vie Micro" (I stopped subscribing when they
stopped publishing listings of programs), so (in theory), I could re-
open them and tell you, month after month, was did happen, back then.
Since we are talking about computers put into classrooms of the
biggest and most powerful administration of France, you can be sure
that there were dozens of papers written about it. The problem will be
to find them, and to read them.
As far as I know, nobody has written a book on the history of
microcomputers in French school. I remember that most of the persons
in charge refused to reply, when "Science et Vie Micro" asked them to
review why the "Plan Calcul" had failed. But the "Plan Calcul" was
launced in 1967 by General de Gaulle, so they were probably afraid of
their future in French administration.
The failure of microcomputerization is much more known that its
beginning. For example:
http://membres.lycos.fr/museumelectronic/Micros_et_consoles/Histoire/histoirinfo.html
He is an individual. He says that "home computing" disappeared in
1985, and he also has a Web page about the disaster of the "Plan
Informatique Pour Tous" (Plan IPT). I found dozens of links about Plan
IPT, some listing the range of microcomputers that schools were
allowed to buy. But it was really the end of the story (Plan IPT was,
in fact, a way to give money to Thomson, not to put computers in
schools). (He also mentions the "MO-6" and the "TO-8", but they were
very late models.)
Ok. This will be all for today (I am busy).
Richard Russell
wrote:
> No, BBC BASIC does not handle colour, the operating system handles
> colour.
Something of an over-generalisation. For example in most versions of
BBC BASIC you can write directly to the screen memory, bypassing the
OS completely, and by that means create coloured text or graphics.
BBC BASIC (86) for MS-DOS creates all its high-resolution graphics by
writing directly to the screen memory.
> BBC BASIC is a programming language, it handles ABSOLUTELY
> NO input/output, it passes ABSOLUTELY ALL calls on to whatever
> operating system (or OS veneer) it happens to be running on to deal
> with the I/O.
BBC BASIC (Z80) has the PUT port,val statement and the GET(port)
function to access hardware I/O ports directly. Even Acorn versions
can use indirection to access memory-mapped hardware devices without
using the OS.
> Taking the COLOUR command as an example.
> [snip]
> If the underlying OS is DOS/Windows, it sends &10,&nn to a VDU
> emulator layer which calls appropriate entries to the video
> drivers.
On specifically those two platforms you are correct, but this thread
is principally about BBC BASIC (Z80) and in those versions which
handle colour text/graphics (e.g. Einstein, Amstrad CPC) there is no
'VDU emulation layer' and statements like COLOUR are handled just like
any other BASIC statement.
Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/
J. Clarke
> roch...@laposte.net wrote:
>>> http://www.genista.net/basic/bas-000.htm
>>
>> Wondering who could be the eccentric behind this Web site (The Web
>> page you mention displays the "Union Jack"... in France?!?), I made a
>
> That flag is called the "Union Flag", a jack is a flag flown from
> the stern of a ship, and the Union Jack is the cross of St. George
> with the Union Flag in the upper flagstaff quadrant.
I hate to be a pain in the butt, but the flag flown from the stern is an
"ensign", the "jack" is flown from the bow.
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> > > What computer did France put in School Classrooms in 1981/2/3/4?
>
> Any chance you could answer the question here? I for one would be
> interested. If you don't know, just say, but I see lots of irrelevant
> stuff and no reall computer info.
I had a look to my library. I managed to find a book with "School" in
the title. It was written in 1988 by a "teacher of teachers". Most of
it is about the goals that must be achieved in class, and how to reach
them, using microcomputers. However, the first 4 pages have a little
bit of history.
I cannot translate everything, so I was obliged to make a summary.
1967: Plan Calcul (Général de Gaulle)
"It is with the (city of) Sèvres meeting, organized in 1970 by the
OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development), that
started the introduction of informatics in the French educative
system."
"First, in Lycées (high schools) from 1971 to 1976, took place the
"Opération des 58 Lycées", during which 528 teachers received a one-
year long training. The programming language LSE ("Language Symbolique
d'Enseignement") was created during this operation, to have a high-
level way of porting programs. Many computer-aided instructions
programs were created during this period, in all the school
disciplines (Maths, French language, etc). They were distributed by
the CNDP ("Centre National de Documentation Pédagogique"). This
operation was totally stopped in 1976.
"A new phase started in December 1976, known under the name "Operation
10.000 Micros", following the Nora-Minc report. (ROCHE> Which was
published as a best-seller book: "L'Informatisation de la Société".)
Because "microcomputers" had just appeared. Some additional teachers
were formed (one year in "Centres Universitaires" and 100 hours in
schools).
"In 1980 took place an equipment plan of "écoles normales" (ROCHE>
schools of teachers) and training of their staff. It originated from
the "Direction des Ecoles", half-a-dozen of "écoles normales" took
part first, then a dozen, then, in 1983, 20. This equipment plan
started in 1981, and planned to set up a reference "école normale" in
each "académie" of France, in 5 years. The equipment was made of "REE
Micral 8022G" microcomputers, equipped with BASIC, LSE, and a French
version of LOGO. In 1984, 107 "écoles normales" were equipped (about
350 computers, 70% of them were Micrals) and 80 "écoles normales"
teachers had been formed.
But, due to the microcomputer revolution, "home computers" were making
their way into schools (sometimes, offered by parents), creating
confusion.
A circular of the "Direction des Ecoles", dated 24 March 1983, tried
to put some order into the chaos. This text was very reserved,
concerning "computer-aided instruction".
At the beginning of 1983, the Ministry of Education proposed a
"convention" (dubbed "Operation TO7") to 16 "départements", to help
them finance the introduction of computers in their schools. Financing
was half by the state, and half by the "Conseils Généraux". Since it
was the "Conseils Généraux" who decided, and not the Ministry of
Education, the exact repartition of Thomson TO7 microcomputers is not
known exactly. The languages BASIC, LSE, and LOGO were selected.
However, one year later, the LOGO and LSE ROM-cartridges were still
not sold. There were many problems with the hardware of the Thomson
TO7.
Despite this, in November 1983, the Ministry of Education announced
20,000 more machines. Decisions became more and more political. There
were few publications in French concerning computer education: a few
articles, several papers on LOGO, and lots of hand-made programs (tied
to the computers used). The EPI association ("Enseignement Public et
Informatique") started to get teachers among its members. EPI had been
created in 1971, by some of the pioneers. Several other associations
were created: I.P.E.M. and A.D.E.T.I. in 1983, and the A.C.I.E. in
1984.
Finally, in the end of January 1985, Socialist Prime Minister Laurent
Fabius announced the "Plan Informatique Pour Tous", which turned to be
a disaster. However, 120,000 Thomson micros were provided to schools,
but some chose to buy one of the 6 micros allowed.
Whew!
I searched: the EPI association still exists. They receive so much
demands for the history of this turmoil area, that they have set up a
Web page (in French) about it:
http://www.epi.asso.fr/revue/histosom.htm
I think that I cannot do better than this, since I was not witness to
the events, contrary to them, and have not read all the reference
papers that they cite.
So, if you don't mind, I will stop this investigation at this point.
Hope it helped.
James Moxham (Dr_Acula)
colour. Thankyou for the very helpful comments. First, I need to get
BBC Basic working on a system that can actually handle colour. I have
it working just fine on a N8VEM (text green screen). But I'll need to
take a step back first and get it working on the propeller emulation
and for that the exx and ex and IX/IY instructions need to be coded.
The downside of software emulations is writing the opcode emulation is
tedious. But the upside is the huge amount of flexibility. For
instance, we can trap conout commands, indeed we can trap any output
instruction and make it run all sorts of clever code before going onto
the next instruction. Already we are trapping most VT100 opcodes to
run Wordstar and also some Wyse terminal commands to run some games eg
pacman. It would be possible to emulate other commands eg ones that
start with a unique character combination (like ESC[ commands for
VT100) sent to conout, OR any generic command sent to any specified
port. OR there could even be an overlay in ram (as the emulation is
using a 512k chip and only using the bottom 64k so there is 448k free
which could be used as some sort of screen memory).
I don't know if there was a version of BBC Basic that ran on computers
that had dumb terminals (like VT100)?
If not, there are still all sorts of clever ways to make things work.
Even systems that don't alter BBC Basic in any way, eg you could do a
global replace on the keyword COLOUR and replace it with a PUT
statement to a specified port.
I have fond memories of coding games in colour on the BBC Basic in the
school computer lab, and I'm sure there are some great games and other
programs out there.
There is some growing interest in getting BBC Basic working on the
prop emulation. I have posted out 10 boards over the last few days so
hopefully will have some help with coding issues soon.
As a general statement, I'm looking forward to opening up a lot more
software libraries with BBC Basic compared with MBASIC.
Richard Russell
<moxh...@internode.on.net> wrote:
> I don't know if there was a version of BBC Basic that ran on computers
> that had dumb terminals (like VT100)?
The generic CP/M version of BBC BASIC (Z80) comes pre-configured for
an ADM-3A terminal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADM-3A
For your purposes you can edit the BBCDIST.MAC code supplied to
configure it for the characteristics of your particular screen/
keyboard.
> Even systems that don't alter BBC Basic in any way, eg you could do a
> global replace on the keyword COLOUR and replace it with a PUT
> statement to a specified port.
Not very elegant! When the time comes contact me and I'll see how
difficult it would be to make you a customised version with statements
like COLOUR vectored to a jump table.
Axel Berger
>BBC BASIC is a programming language, it handles ABSOLUTELY NO
>input/output,
Wrong
>Taking the COLOUR command as an example.
This is a standard BASIC command in the standard BASIC syntax. Of
course it hands the task on to the OS just as OPEN and CLOSE do, but
you need not use POKE or some such and memorize cryptic call numbers.
The whole purpose of a higher programming language is to free the user
from having to write at the lowest level.
Axel
Peter Hill
<roch...@laposte.net> wrote:
>Jim Jackson wrote:
>
>> > > What computer did France put in School Classrooms in 1981/2/3/4?
>>
>> Any chance you could answer the question here? I for one would be
>> interested. If you don't know, just say, but I see lots of irrelevant
>> stuff and no reall computer info.
>
>I had a look to my library. I managed to find a book with "School" in
>the title. It was written in 1988 by a "teacher of teachers". Most of
>it is about the goals that must be achieved in class, and how to reach
>them, using microcomputers. However, the first 4 pages have a little
>bit of history.
<snip some good research>
>So, if you don't mind, I will stop this investigation at this point.
>Hope it helped.
>
>Yours Sincerely,
>Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
Have you found the answer to your question? Why was the BBC Micro and
BBC Basic popular in UK and not in France?
Richard Russell
wrote:
> Have you found the answer to your question? Why was the BBC Micro and
> BBC Basic popular in UK and not in France?
I think the answer was given (or at least hinted at): the 'Not
Invented Here' syndrome:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Invented_Here
Interestingly enough, that article gives as its very first example
"the low acceptance of early British-made home computers in Japan and
the USA" (you can add France, where the 'language barrier' was an
aggravating factor).
Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> Have you found the answer to your question?
??? Which question? It is *YOU* who asked (the 9 December 2009, at
23:46):
> >> > > What computer did France put in School Classrooms in 1981/2/3/4?
>
> >> Any chance you could answer the question here? I for one would be
> >> interested. If you don't know, just say, but I see lots of irrelevant
> >> stuff and no reall computer info.
Don't you remember?
Me, I made extensive researches, to answer your question.
> Why was the BBC Micro and BBC Basic popular in UK and not in France?
I case you have not understood all the documents that I have found:
LSE was created in 1971
BBC BASIC was create in 1981
Who was a late comer?
Who was first?
(Reference:
http://www.epi.asso.fr/revue/54/b54p216.htm
Note the title of this article: "La Saga du LSE et de sa famille (LSD/
LSG/LST)". That is to say: this Programming Language started (at
least) 3 other PLs in France. How many PLs BBC BASIC created? 28 years
later, Richard Russell is still promoting it. This reminds me of a
Saudi Arabia advertisement: "60 Years of Progress, Without Change.")
Peter Hill
<roch...@laposte.net> wrote:
>Peter Hill wrote:
>
>> Have you found the answer to your question?
>
>??? Which question? It is *YOU* who asked (the 9 December 2009, at
>23:46):
>
>> >> > > What computer did France put in School Classrooms in 1981/2/3/4?
>>
>> >> Any chance you could answer the question here? I for one would be
>> >> interested. If you don't know, just say, but I see lots of irrelevant
>> >> stuff and no reall computer info.
>
>Don't you remember?
Yes this
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Conclusion: If you can only find an Englishman in France using BBC
BASIC, what does it mean? Didn't you tell us repeatedly that BBC BASIC
was superior to everything else? France has the same population size
than England. How comes that nobody uses it, except in England and its
former white colonies? Is it rational?
**********************
Are the 6 Billions people living outside of England wrong?
**********************
Or are the 60 Millions (Sorry: I checked (Wikipedia): England has only
51 Millions inhabitants (2008), versus 64 Millions in France.)
Englishmem the only ones to use BBC BASIC? Then, why? Were they so
much traumatised by their experience in school with it that they are
suffering from the "duckling syndrome"?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>Me, I made extensive researches, to answer your question.
>
>> Why was the BBC Micro and BBC Basic popular in UK and not in France?
>
>I case you have not understood all the documents that I have found:
>
>LSE was created in 1971
>BBC BASIC was create in 1981
>
>Who was a late comer?
>Who was first?
Basic was created in 1964. LSE didn't invent structured programming.
The history of LSE shows Fortran, ALGOL, LISP and PL/1 all had
influence on LSE. But it still looks like BASIC translated into
French.
>(Reference:
>
>http://www.epi.asso.fr/revue/54/b54p216.htm
>
>Note the title of this article: "La Saga du LSE et de sa famille (LSD/
>LSG/LST)". That is to say: this Programming Language started (at
>least) 3 other PLs in France. How many PLs BBC BASIC created? 28 years
>later, Richard Russell is still promoting it. This reminds me of a
>Saudi Arabia advertisement: "60 Years of Progress, Without Change.")
>
>Yours Sincerely,
>Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
Where's the LSE 86 or LSE windows?
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
Is it rational?
> BASIC was created in 1964. LSE didn't invent structured programming.
> The history of LSE shows Fortran, ALGOL, LISP and PL/1 all had
> influence on LSE. But it still looks like BASIC translated into
> French.
I *NEVER* said that LSE "invented structured programming": I explained
that LSE was "Yet another PL based on BASIC." (8 December 2009)
> Where's the LSE 86 or LSE windows?
The last version was LSE-83.
After that, as I explained several times, the French Ministry of
Education stopped suddenly, totally financing microcomputers in
schools.
So, in my humble opinion, the totally different histories of BBC BASIC
and LSE shows how important the work of a big organization ("Big
Brother") can have on fresh young minds. They were so traumatised that
they still use it, 28 years later.
And, if there are still BBC BASIC fans out there, that means that they
did not realise that they now run Microsoft Windows, not BBC Windows.
They are nostalgic of their youth.
(Gary Kildall could not be stopped, when he explaind that Logo was far
superior to BASIC. Yet, several years later, several people (including
myself) still program in BASIC. However, I worked a lot on Dr. Logo,
and can tell you that it is, indeed, a fery fine Programming Language.
But, on a 8-bit CPU (Remember: this is the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup.), it
is so much slower than BASIC (and not very strong on files I/O) that
it is simply logical to prefer to use BASIC under CP/M. And I was/am
not the only one. BBC BASIC was just an English eccentricity.)
mike7g
wrote:
Tired of it but still stoking the flame ;) lol
Richard Russell
wrote:
> Where's the LSE 86 or LSE windows?
Another interesting question is: where is Microsoft BASIC for
Windows? All that's available is Visual BASIC (so dissimilar to
traditional BASICs that it hardly deserves the name) or something like
QBASIC running in a DOS Box. Microsoft simply don't provide a
'procedural' BASIC for Windows, which is one reason for the popularity
of languages like BBC BASIC, Liberty Basic, PowerBasic etc.
So whilst on CP/M there's a genuine choice between Microsoft BASIC and
(for example) BBC BASIC, under Windows Microsoft BASIC isn't an
option, at least for those of us who prefer Procedural programming to
Object Orientated programming.
Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/
Jim Jackson
I apologise to any others if they consider it off topic.
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France <roch...@laposte.net> wrote:
> Jim Jackson wrote:
> > > > What computer did France put in School Classrooms in 1981/2/3/4?
> >
> > Any chance you could answer the question here? I for one would be
> > interested. If you don't know, just say, but I see lots of irrelevant
> > stuff and no reall computer info.
> I had a look to my library. I managed to find a book with "School" in
> the title. It was written in 1988 by a "teacher of teachers". Most of
> it is about the goals that must be achieved in class, and how to reach
> them, using microcomputers. However, the first 4 pages have a little
> bit of history.
> I cannot translate everything, so I was obliged to make a summary.
> 1967: Plan Calcul (G?n?ral de Gaulle)
> "It is with the (city of) S?vres meeting, organized in 1970 by the
> OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development), that
> started the introduction of informatics in the French educative
> system."
> "First, in Lyc?es (high schools) from 1971 to 1976, took place the
> "Op?ration des 58 Lyc?es", during which 528 teachers received a one-
> year long training. The programming language LSE ("Language Symbolique
> d'Enseignement") was created during this operation, to have a high-
> level way of porting programs. Many computer-aided instructions
> programs were created during this period, in all the school
> disciplines (Maths, French language, etc). They were distributed by
> the CNDP ("Centre National de Documentation P?dagogique"). This
> operation was totally stopped in 1976.
> "A new phase started in December 1976, known under the name "Operation
> 10.000 Micros", following the Nora-Minc report. (ROCHE> Which was
> published as a best-seller book: "L'Informatisation de la Soci?t?".)
> Because "microcomputers" had just appeared. Some additional teachers
> were formed (one year in "Centres Universitaires" and 100 hours in
> schools).
> "In 1980 took place an equipment plan of "?coles normales" (ROCHE>
> schools of teachers) and training of their staff. It originated from
> the "Direction des Ecoles", half-a-dozen of "?coles normales" took
> part first, then a dozen, then, in 1983, 20. This equipment plan
> started in 1981, and planned to set up a reference "?cole normale" in
> each "acad?mie" of France, in 5 years. The equipment was made of "REE
> Micral 8022G" microcomputers, equipped with BASIC, LSE, and a French
> version of LOGO. In 1984, 107 "?coles normales" were equipped (about
> 350 computers, 70% of them were Micrals) and 80 "?coles normales"
> teachers had been formed.
> But, due to the microcomputer revolution, "home computers" were making
> their way into schools (sometimes, offered by parents), creating
> confusion.
> A circular of the "Direction des Ecoles", dated 24 March 1983, tried
> to put some order into the chaos. This text was very reserved,
> concerning "computer-aided instruction".
> At the beginning of 1983, the Ministry of Education proposed a
> "convention" (dubbed "Operation TO7") to 16 "d?partements", to help
> them finance the introduction of computers in their schools. Financing
> was half by the state, and half by the "Conseils G?n?raux". Since it
> was the "Conseils G?n?raux" who decided, and not the Ministry of