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CP/M Newbie Questions (Emulation and more)
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bally...@hotmail.com
Oct 30, 2013, 5:18:53 PM10/30/13
to
First off: I'm a complete newbie with CP/M. I know a bit of its history, but I've never used it as my OS. I'm currently trying to play around with some CP/M emulators and games and I'm running into brick walls.
I've used the VICE emulator to run CP/M in Commodore 128 mode and it does work okay in the VERY limited fashion which I've used it (which is just exploring the C128's disk). However, from what I understand, that version of CP/M is a Frankenstein's Monster version of CP/M: it's running on a Z80, but most (all?) of the BIOS calls are actually executed in 6502 using the C128's normal BIOS routines. I guess it's the only CP/M machine to do that (although I'll bet you all can correct me here!). It means that it runs pretty slow (about 2 Mhz rather than the advertised 4Mhz) and isn't as compatible as it could or should be. In 1985 I don't think people probably cared enough to complain.
My ultimate goal is to run a CP/M text based game called "Space Capture" from a chapter 9 (pages 257-281) of a book called "Z80 Software Gourmet Guide & Cookbook," by Nat Wadsworth. The Z80 listing is in the book. I'd prefer an online version that I don't have to type in at all, but the game is pretty short (well, kinda). Since I can hardly even find any games at all, let alone something unusual like this, I'm sure I'll be typing it in using a hex editor and then figuring out how to get it onto a CP/M "disk" for use with an emulator. I'd point you to a copy of the book online, but I only have the book in print version. If anyone DOES know of a version available online, then please point it out.
I've already done the usual Google searches using the keywords that came to mind. I DID find plenty of CP/M sites. Most of what I'm coming up with is old material and links.
I'm not sure if this posting is overwhelming or not (it's pretty long), but I took my time preparing it, and I've tried to be concise. I have eight questions for you all... here goes:
1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)? Which one(s)? Do you actively use it/them? What do YOU do with it?
2) CP/M is mostly a business computer, thus there were not many games. Or I don't think that there were. I know that some did exist-- but there is scant information of them that I could find. (I was surprised to learn that there are actually CP/M games for CP/M 86.) Do you know much CP/M games... besides Infocom games? Did you play any back in the day?
3) I'd like to read a history of CP/M-- from a user's perspective. I've heard the oft-repeated story of how Digital Research missed the boat with IBM, else we'd all use CP/M and then GEM instead of running Microsoft DOS and then Windows (okay, so the Atari ST got GEM... and so did the PC... but it didn't quite catch the world on fire). That's great trivia, but I want to hear a hands-on history of using the machines. Know of any such books? If not, a book about the history of CP/M would be okay... but isn't EXACTLY what I want... but in the absence of anything else that would do fine. In this instance, I'm NOT looking for information on the web.
4) Do you have any experience with CP/M emulation? If so, which emulator is most commonly used or would work best on a Windows 7 64-bit machine? I'm looking for the most complete emulator, but also one that is pretty easy to get up and running.
5) Are there any active CP/M forums (besides this newsgroup)? Surely I'm overlooking some active CP/M websites with forums.
6) Which version of CP/M is most recommended? Is it version 2.2? Or does it depend on what you're doing? I'm only trying to emulate a 64K machine.
7) Is there some sort of generic covers-it-all CP/M User's Reference Book? I'd like to pick it up used, so a rare one doesn't do me a lot of good. A book that shows up from time on Ebay or Amazon would be most ideal
8) I'm not actively looking to get a CP/M machine. I'd MUCH prefer to emulate it. However, since CP/M was so prevalent, do you know if there is an inexpensive computer that can be bought fairly inexpensively that will run it? I'm guessing that Ebay would be my friend here, but I'm not even sure what I'm looking for...
I hope that you can at least get me pointed in the right direction. Thanks!
Adam
I've used the VICE emulator to run CP/M in Commodore 128 mode and it does work okay in the VERY limited fashion which I've used it (which is just exploring the C128's disk). However, from what I understand, that version of CP/M is a Frankenstein's Monster version of CP/M: it's running on a Z80, but most (all?) of the BIOS calls are actually executed in 6502 using the C128's normal BIOS routines. I guess it's the only CP/M machine to do that (although I'll bet you all can correct me here!). It means that it runs pretty slow (about 2 Mhz rather than the advertised 4Mhz) and isn't as compatible as it could or should be. In 1985 I don't think people probably cared enough to complain.
My ultimate goal is to run a CP/M text based game called "Space Capture" from a chapter 9 (pages 257-281) of a book called "Z80 Software Gourmet Guide & Cookbook," by Nat Wadsworth. The Z80 listing is in the book. I'd prefer an online version that I don't have to type in at all, but the game is pretty short (well, kinda). Since I can hardly even find any games at all, let alone something unusual like this, I'm sure I'll be typing it in using a hex editor and then figuring out how to get it onto a CP/M "disk" for use with an emulator. I'd point you to a copy of the book online, but I only have the book in print version. If anyone DOES know of a version available online, then please point it out.
I've already done the usual Google searches using the keywords that came to mind. I DID find plenty of CP/M sites. Most of what I'm coming up with is old material and links.
I'm not sure if this posting is overwhelming or not (it's pretty long), but I took my time preparing it, and I've tried to be concise. I have eight questions for you all... here goes:
1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)? Which one(s)? Do you actively use it/them? What do YOU do with it?
2) CP/M is mostly a business computer, thus there were not many games. Or I don't think that there were. I know that some did exist-- but there is scant information of them that I could find. (I was surprised to learn that there are actually CP/M games for CP/M 86.) Do you know much CP/M games... besides Infocom games? Did you play any back in the day?
3) I'd like to read a history of CP/M-- from a user's perspective. I've heard the oft-repeated story of how Digital Research missed the boat with IBM, else we'd all use CP/M and then GEM instead of running Microsoft DOS and then Windows (okay, so the Atari ST got GEM... and so did the PC... but it didn't quite catch the world on fire). That's great trivia, but I want to hear a hands-on history of using the machines. Know of any such books? If not, a book about the history of CP/M would be okay... but isn't EXACTLY what I want... but in the absence of anything else that would do fine. In this instance, I'm NOT looking for information on the web.
4) Do you have any experience with CP/M emulation? If so, which emulator is most commonly used or would work best on a Windows 7 64-bit machine? I'm looking for the most complete emulator, but also one that is pretty easy to get up and running.
5) Are there any active CP/M forums (besides this newsgroup)? Surely I'm overlooking some active CP/M websites with forums.
6) Which version of CP/M is most recommended? Is it version 2.2? Or does it depend on what you're doing? I'm only trying to emulate a 64K machine.
7) Is there some sort of generic covers-it-all CP/M User's Reference Book? I'd like to pick it up used, so a rare one doesn't do me a lot of good. A book that shows up from time on Ebay or Amazon would be most ideal
8) I'm not actively looking to get a CP/M machine. I'd MUCH prefer to emulate it. However, since CP/M was so prevalent, do you know if there is an inexpensive computer that can be bought fairly inexpensively that will run it? I'm guessing that Ebay would be my friend here, but I'm not even sure what I'm looking for...
I hope that you can at least get me pointed in the right direction. Thanks!
Adam
Steve Nickolas
Oct 30, 2013, 9:34:24 PM10/30/13
to
On Wed, 30 Oct 2013, bally...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I've used the VICE emulator to run CP/M in Commodore 128 mode and it
> does work okay in the VERY limited fashion which I've used it (which is
> just exploring the C128's disk). However, from what I understand, that
> version of CP/M is a Frankenstein's Monster version of CP/M: it's
> running on a Z80, but most (all?) of the BIOS calls are actually
> executed in 6502 using the C128's normal BIOS routines. I guess it's
> the only CP/M machine to do that (although I'll bet you all can correct
> me here!). It means that it runs pretty slow (about 2 Mhz rather than
> the advertised 4Mhz) and isn't as compatible as it could or should be.
> In 1985 I don't think people probably cared enough to complain.
The Apple //e versions do this too.
> I've used the VICE emulator to run CP/M in Commodore 128 mode and it
> does work okay in the VERY limited fashion which I've used it (which is
> just exploring the C128's disk). However, from what I understand, that
> version of CP/M is a Frankenstein's Monster version of CP/M: it's
> running on a Z80, but most (all?) of the BIOS calls are actually
> executed in 6502 using the C128's normal BIOS routines. I guess it's
> the only CP/M machine to do that (although I'll bet you all can correct
> me here!). It means that it runs pretty slow (about 2 Mhz rather than
> the advertised 4Mhz) and isn't as compatible as it could or should be.
> In 1985 I don't think people probably cared enough to complain.
> 1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)? Which one(s)? Do you actively use
> it/them? What do YOU do with it?
that can run CP/M 3.1.
> 2) CP/M is mostly a business computer, thus there were not many games.
> Or I don't think that there were. I know that some did exist-- but
> there is scant information of them that I could find. (I was surprised
> to learn that there are actually CP/M games for CP/M 86.) Do you know
> much CP/M games... besides Infocom games? Did you play any back in the
> day?
nothing in common. Stuff like Infocom was really the only kind of game
that was sure to run on ANY CP/M system.
> 4) Do you have any experience with CP/M emulation? If so, which
> emulator is most commonly used or would work best on a Windows 7 64-bit
> machine? I'm looking for the most complete emulator, but also one that
> is pretty easy to get up and running.
on top of dosbox, and occasionally I'll use the Agat Emulator or AppleWin.
> 6) Which version of CP/M is most recommended? Is it version 2.2? Or
> does it depend on what you're doing? I'm only trying to emulate a 64K
> machine.
> 8) I'm not actively looking to get a CP/M machine. I'd MUCH prefer to
> emulate it. However, since CP/M was so prevalent, do you know if there
> is an inexpensive computer that can be bought fairly inexpensively that
> will run it? I'm guessing that Ebay would be my friend here, but I'm
> not even sure what I'm looking for...
(although on an 8088 that would be slow as hell) and it would run CP/M-80
apps almost natively...
-uso.
Roger Ivie
Oct 30, 2013, 9:40:08 PM10/30/13
to
On 2013-10-30, bally...@hotmail.com <bally...@hotmail.com> wrote:
First off, carriage returns are your friends.
> 1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)? Which one(s)? Do you actively use
> it/them? What do YOU do with it?
I have several hardware systems, but it's been quite a while since I
powered any of them on. Of course, they all worked last time I used
them:
- ML644, a 4MHz 64K 8" system built by Utah State University, along
with several spare motherboards.
- Epson PX-8 Geneva
- Osborne 1
- Northstar Horizon
I also have a P112 that I've never managed to get around to finishing.
These days, when I run CP/M it's on an emulator. Currently, I use it
to torture several projects I'm working on.
> 2) CP/M is mostly a business computer, thus there were not many games.
> ... Do you know much CP/M games... besides Infocom games? Did you play
primary operating system.
A friend had something called "Ladder" that I gathered came with his
TeleVideo. It was a ladder-climbing jump-the-barrel type of game.
I did go in with a friend to buy a chess program back in the day. Don't
recall the name of it; it required an H19 terminal. Might still have a
copy on 8" floppy somewhere.
And, of course, there's Adventure.
I don't recall playing any other CP/M games.
> 4) Do you have any experience with CP/M emulation?
I do quite a bit with Udo Munk's z80pack. I have it running on Windows
and I've also run it on an embedded ARM system.
Don't know what's *commonly* used, but I know my way around z80pack well
enough to make it do what I want.
> 6) Which version of CP/M is most recommended? Is it version 2.2?
I generally use 2.2. It's what I used back in the day and I'm boring.
I also do some playing about with CP/M-68K.
--
roger ivie
ri...@ridgenet.net
First off, carriage returns are your friends.
> 1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)? Which one(s)? Do you actively use
> it/them? What do YOU do with it?
powered any of them on. Of course, they all worked last time I used
them:
- ML644, a 4MHz 64K 8" system built by Utah State University, along
with several spare motherboards.
- Epson PX-8 Geneva
- Osborne 1
- Northstar Horizon
I also have a P112 that I've never managed to get around to finishing.
These days, when I run CP/M it's on an emulator. Currently, I use it
to torture several projects I'm working on.
> 2) CP/M is mostly a business computer, thus there were not many games.
> any back in the day?
I didn't get much involved with gaming until after CP/M stopped being my
primary operating system.
A friend had something called "Ladder" that I gathered came with his
TeleVideo. It was a ladder-climbing jump-the-barrel type of game.
I did go in with a friend to buy a chess program back in the day. Don't
recall the name of it; it required an H19 terminal. Might still have a
copy on 8" floppy somewhere.
And, of course, there's Adventure.
I don't recall playing any other CP/M games.
> 4) Do you have any experience with CP/M emulation?
and I've also run it on an embedded ARM system.
Don't know what's *commonly* used, but I know my way around z80pack well
enough to make it do what I want.
> 6) Which version of CP/M is most recommended? Is it version 2.2?
I also do some playing about with CP/M-68K.
--
roger ivie
ri...@ridgenet.net
dott.Piergiorgio
Oct 31, 2013, 2:32:40 AM10/31/13
to
? ISTR that was some bds C version....
(not that can be feasible porting rogue(6) or sail(6) on CPM, even with
every conceivable code optimization & inline asm, but will be
interesting to see if *really* portable CP/M games/apps based on
(n)curses and a tuned adaptation of termcap/terminfo is viable...)
Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
Steven Hirsch
Oct 31, 2013, 8:18:24 AM10/31/13
to
On 10/31/2013 02:32 AM, dott.Piergiorgio wrote:
> side question on gaming dev/porting: there was a CP/M port of (n)curses ? ISTR
> that was some bds C version....
The "Z-System" environment had a termcap implementation, along with linkable
> side question on gaming dev/porting: there was a CP/M port of (n)curses ? ISTR
> that was some bds C version....
libraries to transparently handle console I/O and cursor positioning.
Programs that were built with that in mind would run properly across
platforms. I think the last version of Wordstar 4.x had this built in.
It seems like a lot of newcomers to CP/M are unaware of Z-System. All the
components are now free software and available for download. Unfortunately,
source code for some of the components is not available.
Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
Oct 31, 2013, 9:46:05 AM10/31/13
to
"ballyalley" wrote: (Try to find a meaningful name, like Adam
FamName.)
> First off: I'm a complete newbie with CP/M.
? Then, your are the welcome!
(...)
1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)? Which one(s)? Do you
actively use it/them? What do YOU do with it?
About 20. My favorite is the Epson QX-10, but it is not an
"S-100 Bus" system. My list is long, so I will spare you...
Being a former COBOL programmer on IBM Mainframes, I mostly
program them.
2) CP/M is mostly a business computer, thus there were not many
games. Or I don't think that there were. I know that some did
exist-- but there is scant information of them that I could
find. (I was surprised to learn that there are actually CP/M
games for CP/M 86.) Do you know much CP/M games... besides
Infocom games? Did you play any back in the day?
The problem is that many games were "tied" to a particular
hardware card. The "Dazzler" card comes to mind, etc, etc. So,
for "portability reasons", the "classics" remaining/portable
games are ASCII characters only. The quickest (at the time) were
assembly language programs. But now, under an emulator, even
interpreted BASIC games are "real-time". A nice Web site for
them is:
http://www.moorecad.com/classicbasic/
3) I'd like to read a history of CP/M-- from a user's
perspective. I've heard the oft-repeated story of how Digital
Research missed the boat with IBM, else we'd all use CP/M and
then GEM instead of running Microsoft DOS and then Windows
(okay, so the Atari ST got GEM... and so did the PC... but it
didn't quite catch the world on fire). That's great trivia, but
I want to hear a hands-on history of using the machines. Know
of any such books? If not, a book about the history of CP/M
would be okay... but isn't EXACTLY what I want... but in the
absence of anything else that would do fine. In this instance,
I'm NOT looking for information on the web.
As far as I know, no such book exists. The only thing similar
that I know of is:
http://www.vannattabros.com/history1.html
4) Do you have any experience with CP/M emulation? If so, which
emulator is most commonly used or would work best on a Windows 7
64-bit machine? I'm looking for the most complete emulator, but
also one that is pretty easy to get up and running.
First, an explanation: CP/M existed during 10 years. First as an
8-bit version (for which there were 3 releases), then as a
16-bit version, which (because of the appearance of the "IBM
Clown") span many, many versions.
As a result, there are emulators for some of them, but not all.
Some of the most esoteric versions of CP/M for the IBM PC needs
to be booted on the real hardware of that area (which is
becoming a collector item...).
In general, when people say "CP/M", they mean "CP/M 2.2"
(especially in the USA. In Europe, it is probably "CP/M Plus").
For CP/M 2.2, an old MS-DOS emulator (running now in a "DOS Box"
under Windows) is "22NICE".
For CP/M Plus, there is a generic one (not tied to a particular
computer system) available on "gaby.de" and "Joyce", an emulator
of the Amstrad PCW-8256 (which ran under CP/M Plus).
5) Are there any active CP/M forums (besides this newsgroup)?
Surely I'm overlooking some active CP/M websites with forums.
As far as I know, the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup is the last place on
Earth where CP/M fans gather. As for "Forums", I wrote last week
to the man behind the "Vintage Computer Forums": still no
answer, one week later... (According to Google, 400 persons all
over the world read the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup.)
6) Which version of CP/M is most recommended? Is it version 2.2?
Or does it depend on what you're doing? I'm only trying to
emulate a 64K machine.
Most of the software remaining were written for CP/M 2.2, as
Digital Research went bankrupt just after launching CP/M Plus
and its family of IBM PC Operating Systems.
7) Is there some sort of generic covers-it-all CP/M User's
Reference Book? I'd like to pick it up used, so a rare one
doesn't do me a lot of good. A book that shows up from time on
Ebay or Amazon would be most ideal
Personally, since gary Kildall was a Professor of Computer
Science (unlike a famous dropout), I always have found the
original Digital Research manuals to be clear and precise. I
know that, when CP/M was the only Operating System for
microcomputers, hundreds of books were written about it, some of
them even becoming best-sellers. Still, I think that you will
find no better doc than the original DRI manuals. In 1983, DRI
republished all the CP/M 2.2 manuals (which were, formerly, in
11" paper format, and separate -- one per subject) as a single
"binder", following the IBM PC fashion. If you don't already
have it, get it at:
http://www.cadigital.com/software.htm
8) I'm not actively looking to get a CP/M machine. I'd MUCH
prefer to emulate it. However, since CP/M was so prevalent, do
you know if there is an inexpensive computer that can be bought
fairly inexpensively that will run it? I'm guessing that Ebay
would be my friend here, but I'm not even sure what I'm looking
for...
It has been years since I last bought something on eBay. This
way of auctioning something is just meant to increase the price
of the good, so that the go-between get a good deal of money.
And CP/M systems, being 30 years old, are worthless... Me, I am
often asked if I would mind accepting being *GIVEN* an old
system! Since I already have 2 dozens, I usually refuse, except
if it is exceptional, or particularly good hardware of the time.
Now that I have answered your questions, the serious stuff:
> My ultimate goal is to run a CP/M text based game called
> "Space Capture" from a chapter 9 (pages 257-281) of a book
> called "Z80 Software Gourmet Guide & Cookbook," by Nat
> Wadsworth. The Z80 listing is in the book. I'd prefer an
> online version that I don't have to type in at all, but the
> game is pretty short (well, kinda). Since I can hardly even
> find any games at all, let alone something unusual like this,
> I'm sure I'll be typing it in using a hex editor and then
> figuring out how to get it onto a CP/M "disk" for use with an
> emulator. I'd point you to a copy of the book online, but I
> only have the book in print version. If anyone DOES know of a
> version available online, then please point it out.
I have this book, but I don't know where(!). (I am a "book
worn".)
So, it would be simpler if you sent me (at my public e-mail
address) a good high-resolution of this chapter.
This way, I could show you (and others) how to do it.
"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."
Yours Sincerely,
Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
FamName.)
> First off: I'm a complete newbie with CP/M.
(...)
1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)? Which one(s)? Do you
actively use it/them? What do YOU do with it?
"S-100 Bus" system. My list is long, so I will spare you...
Being a former COBOL programmer on IBM Mainframes, I mostly
program them.
2) CP/M is mostly a business computer, thus there were not many
games. Or I don't think that there were. I know that some did
exist-- but there is scant information of them that I could
find. (I was surprised to learn that there are actually CP/M
games for CP/M 86.) Do you know much CP/M games... besides
Infocom games? Did you play any back in the day?
hardware card. The "Dazzler" card comes to mind, etc, etc. So,
for "portability reasons", the "classics" remaining/portable
games are ASCII characters only. The quickest (at the time) were
assembly language programs. But now, under an emulator, even
interpreted BASIC games are "real-time". A nice Web site for
them is:
http://www.moorecad.com/classicbasic/
3) I'd like to read a history of CP/M-- from a user's
perspective. I've heard the oft-repeated story of how Digital
Research missed the boat with IBM, else we'd all use CP/M and
then GEM instead of running Microsoft DOS and then Windows
(okay, so the Atari ST got GEM... and so did the PC... but it
didn't quite catch the world on fire). That's great trivia, but
I want to hear a hands-on history of using the machines. Know
of any such books? If not, a book about the history of CP/M
would be okay... but isn't EXACTLY what I want... but in the
absence of anything else that would do fine. In this instance,
I'm NOT looking for information on the web.
that I know of is:
http://www.vannattabros.com/history1.html
4) Do you have any experience with CP/M emulation? If so, which
emulator is most commonly used or would work best on a Windows 7
64-bit machine? I'm looking for the most complete emulator, but
also one that is pretty easy to get up and running.
8-bit version (for which there were 3 releases), then as a
16-bit version, which (because of the appearance of the "IBM
Clown") span many, many versions.
As a result, there are emulators for some of them, but not all.
Some of the most esoteric versions of CP/M for the IBM PC needs
to be booted on the real hardware of that area (which is
becoming a collector item...).
In general, when people say "CP/M", they mean "CP/M 2.2"
(especially in the USA. In Europe, it is probably "CP/M Plus").
For CP/M 2.2, an old MS-DOS emulator (running now in a "DOS Box"
under Windows) is "22NICE".
For CP/M Plus, there is a generic one (not tied to a particular
computer system) available on "gaby.de" and "Joyce", an emulator
of the Amstrad PCW-8256 (which ran under CP/M Plus).
5) Are there any active CP/M forums (besides this newsgroup)?
Surely I'm overlooking some active CP/M websites with forums.
Earth where CP/M fans gather. As for "Forums", I wrote last week
to the man behind the "Vintage Computer Forums": still no
answer, one week later... (According to Google, 400 persons all
over the world read the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup.)
6) Which version of CP/M is most recommended? Is it version 2.2?
Or does it depend on what you're doing? I'm only trying to
emulate a 64K machine.
Digital Research went bankrupt just after launching CP/M Plus
and its family of IBM PC Operating Systems.
7) Is there some sort of generic covers-it-all CP/M User's
Reference Book? I'd like to pick it up used, so a rare one
doesn't do me a lot of good. A book that shows up from time on
Ebay or Amazon would be most ideal
Science (unlike a famous dropout), I always have found the
original Digital Research manuals to be clear and precise. I
know that, when CP/M was the only Operating System for
microcomputers, hundreds of books were written about it, some of
them even becoming best-sellers. Still, I think that you will
find no better doc than the original DRI manuals. In 1983, DRI
republished all the CP/M 2.2 manuals (which were, formerly, in
11" paper format, and separate -- one per subject) as a single
"binder", following the IBM PC fashion. If you don't already
have it, get it at:
http://www.cadigital.com/software.htm
8) I'm not actively looking to get a CP/M machine. I'd MUCH
prefer to emulate it. However, since CP/M was so prevalent, do
you know if there is an inexpensive computer that can be bought
fairly inexpensively that will run it? I'm guessing that Ebay
would be my friend here, but I'm not even sure what I'm looking
for...
way of auctioning something is just meant to increase the price
of the good, so that the go-between get a good deal of money.
And CP/M systems, being 30 years old, are worthless... Me, I am
often asked if I would mind accepting being *GIVEN* an old
system! Since I already have 2 dozens, I usually refuse, except
if it is exceptional, or particularly good hardware of the time.
Now that I have answered your questions, the serious stuff:
> My ultimate goal is to run a CP/M text based game called
> "Space Capture" from a chapter 9 (pages 257-281) of a book
> called "Z80 Software Gourmet Guide & Cookbook," by Nat
> Wadsworth. The Z80 listing is in the book. I'd prefer an
> online version that I don't have to type in at all, but the
> game is pretty short (well, kinda). Since I can hardly even
> find any games at all, let alone something unusual like this,
> I'm sure I'll be typing it in using a hex editor and then
> figuring out how to get it onto a CP/M "disk" for use with an
> emulator. I'd point you to a copy of the book online, but I
> only have the book in print version. If anyone DOES know of a
> version available online, then please point it out.
worn".)
So, it would be simpler if you sent me (at my public e-mail
address) a good high-resolution of this chapter.
This way, I could show you (and others) how to do it.
"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."
Yours Sincerely,
Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
Torfinn Ingolfsen
Oct 31, 2013, 10:07:10 AM10/31/13
to
On 10/30/2013 22:18, bally...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> 1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)? Which one(s)? Do you actively
> use it/them? What do YOU do with it?
I have two:
>
> 1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)? Which one(s)? Do you actively
> use it/them? What do YOU do with it?
a DracBlade:
see http://www.smarthome.jigsy.com/propeller
and
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php/117996-Dracblade-SBC-with-Catalina-C-PropBasic-CP-M-MP-M-TRS80-wireless-network
a P112 (which I am in the process of completing): http://661.org/p112/
What I do with them? I play with them, and try to learn CP/M and other
8-bit operating systems.
>
> 4) Do you have any experience with CP/M emulation? If so, which
> emulator is most commonly used or would work best on a Windows 7
> 64-bit machine? I'm looking for the most complete emulator, but also
> one that is pretty easy to get up and running.
(http://www.autometer.de/unix4fun/z80pack/) recently, but haven't gotten
very far.
--
Torfinn Ingolfsen,
Norway
Torfinn Ingolfsen
Oct 31, 2013, 10:09:32 AM10/31/13
to
On 10/31/2013 13:18, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>
> It seems like a lot of newcomers to CP/M are unaware of Z-System. All
> the components are now free software and available for download.
> Unfortunately, source code for some of the components is not available.
Is there a "how-to" for installing it somewhere?
>
> It seems like a lot of newcomers to CP/M are unaware of Z-System. All
> the components are now free software and available for download.
> Unfortunately, source code for some of the components is not available.
Do you need to install CP/M first, or can you install Z-System on a
"blank" floppy or hard drive partition?
--
Torfinn Ingolfsen,
Norway
monah...@gmail.com
Oct 31, 2013, 12:55:10 PM10/31/13
to
I would just like to add that you might also want to take a look at
http://www.schorn.ch/altair.html
the "Altair 8800 simulator" SIMH emulator. I use it a lot and it has been easy to use and is reliable. You can go back and forth between windows (eg. W7) editors and CPM3 easily. See here for an example:-
http://www.s100computers.com/Software%20Folder/Altair%20Simmulator/Altair%20Software.htm
John
Steven Hirsch
Oct 31, 2013, 1:08:54 PM10/31/13
to
The documentation is there as well.
In general you need a running CP/M system. The runtime environment "NZCOM"
installs itself over the original system. There is a lot there. "Back in the
day" almost everyone I knew who was active with CP/M used this environment. It
seems to have slipped out of the mainstream in the intervening 20+ years.
I recently installed NZCOM on top of z80pack. With the addition of Bridger
Mitchell's excellent "DateStamper" package and tools, you have a very useful
environment for program development and learning. I'm not entirely clear on
the current status of DateStamper. Unlike Jay, Bridger has made no official
statements with regard to freeing it up and does not respond to e-mailed
inquiries on the subject. It is out there "floating around" on the net.
Steve
bally...@hotmail.com
Oct 31, 2013, 1:46:40 PM10/31/13
to
On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:40:08 PM UTC-6, Roger Ivie wrote:
> First off, carriage returns are your friends.
Thanks for the advice. I see what you mean when I view my posting through Google Groups. I've always taken carriage returns to be bad form as a line will wrap in funny ways sometimes, which is why I don't use them. If you're using a widescreen monitor with a high resolution I can certainly see how not having carriage returns could make my posting (and some of the replies to it) hard to read.
> First off, carriage returns are your friends.
> A friend had something called "Ladder" that I gathered came with his
> TeleVideo. It was a ladder-climbing jump-the-barrel type of game.
> And, of course, there's Adventure.
> I do quite a bit with Udo Munk's z80pack.
> I also do some playing about with CP/M-68K.
Adam
bally...@hotmail.com
Oct 31, 2013, 3:00:23 PM10/31/13
to
On Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:46:05 AM UTC-6, Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France wrote:
> "ballyalley" wrote: (Try to find a meaningful name, like Adam
> FamName.)
I've been using BallyAlley since I signed up for Deja News back in the late nineties. I actually became a member of Google Groups via osmosis. BallyAlley is my alias for my computing hobby. You can check out my Bally Arcade/Astrocade website at:
> "ballyalley" wrote: (Try to find a meaningful name, like Adam
> FamName.)
www.ballyalley.com
There is also a Yahoo group devoted to the system.
> ? Then, your are the welcome!
> Being a former COBOL programmer on IBM Mainframes, I mostly
> program them.
Let me bring this back around to CP/M. What was the most popular programming language for it? I see that TONS of languages were used by hobbyists. Were most commercial programs developed in assembly?
> A nice Web site for [BASIC games] is:
>
> http://www.moorecad.com/classicbasic/
Nice link. Thanks. I've bookmarked the page. One of the first images on the page is of the book "BASIC Computer Games" by David Ahl. I've got that (and MANY of the Creative Computing books) out in the garage. It's a fun book. In 2010 this book was updated and is still available, here:
http://www.computerscienceforkids.com/Pages/SmallBasicComputerGames.aspx
> As far as I know, no such [CP/M] book exists. The only thing similar
I've bookmarked it. I've run across quite a few historical websites of this sort.
I have a hard time understanding how there isn't a book about only CP/M or Digital Research. I understand that the OS hasn't been mainstream in decades, but that means little. For instance, I want a book called "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems (History of Computing)" by Emerson W. Pugh, Lyle R. Johnson and John H. Palmer. CP/M was certainly more popular in popular culture than the IBM 360 series was (although, admittedly, many more people's lives were probably softly touched by the existence of these computers-- as when the gas bill came SOME computer calculated that total).
> First, an explanation: CP/M existed during 10 years. First as an
> 8-bit version (for which there were 3 releases), then as a
> As a result, there are emulators for some of them, but not all.
So, then, I guess what I really need to decide is what I want to emulate? I want an 80-column monochrome terminal, a floppy (or two) and 64K or RAM. From the answers that I've read so far I want to run CP/M 2.2. Is there anything else that I need for a typical CP/M system?
> For CP/M 2.2, an old MS-DOS emulator (running now in a "DOS Box"
> under Windows) is "22NICE".
> For CP/M Plus, there is a generic one (not tied to a particular
> computer system) available on "gaby.de" and "Joyce", an emulator
> of the Amstrad PCW-8256 (which ran under CP/M Plus).
> As far as I know, the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup is the last place on
> Earth where CP/M fans gather. As for "Forums", I wrote last week
> to the man behind the "Vintage Computer Forums": still no
> answer, one week later...
> Most of the software remaining were written for CP/M 2.2
> [...] since gary Kildall was a Professor of Computer
> Science (unlike a famous dropout), I always have found the
> original Digital Research manuals to be clear and precise.
> [...] I think that you will
> original Digital Research manuals to be clear and precise.
> find no better doc than the original DRI manuals.
> [...] get it at:
>
> http://www.cadigital.com/software.htm
Thanks for the link. I know of this website already because they sell new CoCo clone's called the Tano Dragon (a 64K machine with a 6809 CPU). The CP/M manual is $15, which sounds fine to me. It looks like the CP/M floppy discs even come with the books. Not that I have anything to use them on (what system WOULD I use them on?).
I gave cadigital a phone call to order the book, but there is a message that you have to email them. I sent an email to them and I don't expect to hear back from them for several days.
I'm still open to CP/M book suggestions if anyone has a favorite book then please say so.
> [...] I am often asked if I would mind accepting being
> *GIVEN* an old system!
I used to collect computers and people giving me computers was actually the NORMAL way to get computers. Nobody wanted these "worthless" things. That's not the way it is anymore. Now people do sell them. In a way I think that Ebay has saved some really neat equipment from the trash heap. Then again, it has certainly made some people believe that that their trash really is someone's treasure when it's simple trash.
I recall the days when the newsgroups used to have people selling their personal collections. That was fun. I never bought anything this way, but when this was the norm you could really find some neat stuff and you could be sure that it came from a home where it had been taken care of.
I guess the question becomes: how common are CP/M systems? When was the last such system made for the commercial or consumer market? I don't mean the glorified typewriters that used CP/M, but systems that were marketed as computers and not just a system that used CP/M as a cheap means to get a word processor into someone's home.
> it would be simpler if you sent me (at my public e-mail
> address) a good high-resolution of this chapter.
> This way, I could show you (and others) how to do it.
Perhaps you mean you'll show us how the program works? There is already a lengthy explanation in the chapter. I think that there are even flowcharts. Still, I'd love to have some other people interested in this. Who would have guessed that people would still be interested in playing some strange text-only based games decades after they were released?
Next we can tackle the text-based version of Mario. For example:
Mario Steps forward. Mario Jumps and hits block. Mario Gets Mushroom. Mario is taller.
Hmm. Maybe that's not as fun as I thought!
Thanks for all the advice!
Adam
bally...@hotmail.com
Oct 31, 2013, 3:02:48 PM10/31/13
to
On Thursday, October 31, 2013 10:55:10 AM UTC-6, monah...@gmail.com wrote:
> I would just like to add that you might also want to take a look at
>
> http://www.schorn.ch/altair.html
This program calls itself a "simulator" rather than an emulator. Is there a difference?
> I would just like to add that you might also want to take a look at
>
> http://www.schorn.ch/altair.html
Roger Ivie
Oct 31, 2013, 3:33:48 PM10/31/13
to
On 2013-10-31, bally...@hotmail.com <bally...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> For instance, I want a book called "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems
> (History of Computing)" by Emerson W. Pugh, Lyle R. Johnson and John
> H. Palmer. CP/M was certainly more popular in popular culture than
> the IBM 360 series was
That book is primarily about the hardware; there's only one chapter
> For instance, I want a book called "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems
> (History of Computing)" by Emerson W. Pugh, Lyle R. Johnson and John
> H. Palmer. CP/M was certainly more popular in popular culture than
> the IBM 360 series was
about software. CP/M is hardware-agnostic, which is kind of a problem
when writing a book: how do you get your arms around it?
Very good book, by the way. I enjoyed it immensely.
--
roger ivie
ri...@ridgenet.net
Steve Nickolas
Oct 31, 2013, 5:11:53 PM10/31/13
to
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013, Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France wrote:
> In general, when people say "CP/M", they mean "CP/M 2.2"
> (especially in the USA. In Europe, it is probably "CP/M Plus").
>
> For CP/M 2.2, an old MS-DOS emulator (running now in a "DOS Box"
> under Windows) is "22NICE".
>
> For CP/M Plus, there is a generic one (not tied to a particular
> computer system) available on "gaby.de" and "Joyce", an emulator
> of the Amstrad PCW-8256 (which ran under CP/M Plus).
myz80 has the capability of emulating zpm3. I've used it as an emulator
> In general, when people say "CP/M", they mean "CP/M 2.2"
> (especially in the USA. In Europe, it is probably "CP/M Plus").
>
> For CP/M 2.2, an old MS-DOS emulator (running now in a "DOS Box"
> under Windows) is "22NICE".
>
> For CP/M Plus, there is a generic one (not tied to a particular
> computer system) available on "gaby.de" and "Joyce", an emulator
> of the Amstrad PCW-8256 (which ran under CP/M Plus).
to run CP/M 3.1 stuff.
I believe that the cpm.exe+z80.cmd combination emulates 3.1 as well,
certainly z80.cmd won't run on 2.2 but works fine on 4.1.
> Most of the software remaining were written for CP/M 2.2, as
> Digital Research went bankrupt just after launching CP/M Plus
> and its family of IBM PC Operating Systems.
-uso.
Steve Nickolas
Oct 31, 2013, 5:18:58 PM10/31/13
to
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013, bally...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Are the later versions of CP/M (for instance, CP/M Plus) compatible with
> CP/M 2.2 programs. Also, are CP/M Plus and CP/M 3 the same thing?
Yes, and yes.
> Are the later versions of CP/M (for instance, CP/M Plus) compatible with
> CP/M 2.2 programs. Also, are CP/M Plus and CP/M 3 the same thing?
CP/M 3.1 is a bit bigger than 2.2, I believe; though a lot of systems
had more RAM and could bankswitch most of it out, leaving more memory
available for user programs. You get, I think, 62K RAM when running ZPM
on MyZ80.
> I used to collect computers and people giving me computers was actually
> the NORMAL way to get computers. Nobody wanted these "worthless"
> things. That's not the way it is anymore. Now people do sell them.
> In a way I think that Ebay has saved some really neat equipment from the
> trash heap. Then again, it has certainly made some people believe that
> that their trash really is someone's treasure when it's simple trash.
I still find the occasional diamond in the rough, but I have yet to find
the old Tandys, Apple ][s and stuff I used to find. And man, I'd love to
be able to dig up a Compaq Portable or some other ancient luggable XT
system. They're just not around.
> I guess the question becomes: how common are CP/M systems? When was the
> last such system made for the commercial or consumer market? I don't
> mean the glorified typewriters that used CP/M, but systems that were
> marketed as computers and not just a system that used CP/M as a cheap
> means to get a word processor into someone's home.
3.1), and the MSX Turbo-R came out...when? Late 80s or early 90s...
-uso.
Steve Nickolas
Oct 31, 2013, 5:21:03 PM10/31/13
to
z80mu or cpm.exe that only emulate at a high level, where "simulator" is
used to refer to something that emulates a full machine.
To me, a "simulator" is something that emulates a machine at chip-level or
lower. All the emulators I've written are higher-level than that,
although they do emulate full machines.
-uso.
Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
Oct 31, 2013, 6:01:40 PM10/31/13
to
Re-Hello, Adam!
Last message before going to bed.
> Let me bring this back around to CP/M. What was the most
> popular programming language for it? I see that TONS of
> languages were used by hobbyists. Were most commercial
> programs developed in assembly?
1) MBASIC.
2) Yes, in Intel 8080 code, to be portable.
(The only famous exception was Turbo Pascal which used Zilog
Z-80 code. But you will notice that it has disappeared... I have
been reading the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup for the last 14 years:
nobody ever used it during that time frame.)
> I have a hard time understanding how there isn't a book about
> only CP/M or Digital Research.
Me too. Have a look to your mailbox. "You should have mail."
> So, then, I guess what I really need to decide is what I want
> to emulate?
Yes, exactly. But CP/M emulators have been written for years
(decades?). So, why write one, when so many are freely
available?
> I want an 80-column monochrome terminal, a floppy (or two)
> and 64K or RAM. From the answers that I've read so far I want
> to run CP/M 2.2. Is there anything else that I need for a
> typical CP/M system?
A computer? (Just kidding.) Since CP/M is a disk Operating
System, the more disk drives, the better. I would recommend a
4-drive system. I print a lot, so I searched and found a nice 24
pages-per-minute Laser printer. (No longer "supported" in the
Windows world.)
>> For CP/M 2.2, an old MS-DOS emulator (running now in a
>> "DOS Box" under Windows) is "22NICE".
> Emulation under emulation: that's an extreme method to go.
> Although, I must admit, I do have a laptop with only DOS 6.22
> installed on it so that I can use a special cable to transfer
> files to and from a C64. However, the floppy on the laptop is
> kinda toast now and I have did find a replacement.
You don't even need a floppy disk drive in working condition. I
have a RAMdisk on my Windows system, and do all my CP/M
emulation with 22NICE on the hard disk (in a directory) or on
the RAMdisk. It is only for extreme assembly that I notice a
difference in speed.
>> For CP/M Plus, there is a generic one (not tied to a
>> particular
>> computer system) available on "gaby.de" and "Joyce", an
>> emulator
>> of the Amstrad PCW-8256 (which ran under CP/M Plus).
> Having now read what an Amstrad PCW-8256 actually is, I think
> that Joyce will suit my needs.
No. It was a best-seller in Europe, with 8 millions sold, but
didn't make it in the USA, despite being sold by Sears. Stay
with CP/M 2.2, which is hardware-independent. The Amstrads were
using a bit-mapped screen, so you need a good screen emulator to
use their programs.
> (...) The gaby.de website seems like an excellent resource
> for CP/M.
Yes. It is them who have the official paper saying that CP/M was
release to the Public Domain.
> Are the later versions of CP/M (for instance, CP/M Plus)
> compatible with CP/M 2.2 programs?
Yes, in general, if they were well written. (Else, the
troublesome programs disappeared rapidly.)
> Also, are CP/M Plus and CP/M 3 the same thing?
Yes. In 1983, Digital Research launched its 3rd version of CP/M
(a total rewrite from scratch, based on the Multi-tasking,
Multi-User MP/M) under the name "CP/M 3" in the USA. But, with
the "IBM Clown" frenzy, the Americans were not interested. 2
years later, Amstrad launched theirs 8-bit microcomputers with
"CP/M Plus", and it was a success all over Europe (except in
France, which was fan of the "Mac").
So, Amstrad saved Digital Research from bankruptcy in 1985, but
DRI continued to decline and, in 1986, finally sold Concurrent
CP/M to IBM, which is still using it, today, under the name IBM
4690 OS. When you use several of its programs, for example the
BASIC compiler, the banner of the compiler displays "Copyright
Digital Research" on the screen...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_4690_OS
(And IBM 4690 BASIC is still compatible with all the CBASIC
programs (like the "classic" program "General Ledger", which was
a best-seller.) ever published by hundreds of people/companies.)
> I'm still open to CP/M book suggestions if anyone has a
> favorite book then please say so.
*HUNDREDS* of CP/M books were written and published. Have a look
to those old microcomputer magazines, where you will find
reviews of the best-sellers. Here are a handful of them:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrbill/sets/72157594153699918/?view=md
Last message before going to bed.
> Let me bring this back around to CP/M. What was the most
> popular programming language for it? I see that TONS of
> languages were used by hobbyists. Were most commercial
> programs developed in assembly?
2) Yes, in Intel 8080 code, to be portable.
(The only famous exception was Turbo Pascal which used Zilog
Z-80 code. But you will notice that it has disappeared... I have
been reading the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup for the last 14 years:
nobody ever used it during that time frame.)
> I have a hard time understanding how there isn't a book about
> only CP/M or Digital Research.
> So, then, I guess what I really need to decide is what I want
> to emulate?
(decades?). So, why write one, when so many are freely
available?
> I want an 80-column monochrome terminal, a floppy (or two)
> and 64K or RAM. From the answers that I've read so far I want
> to run CP/M 2.2. Is there anything else that I need for a
> typical CP/M system?
System, the more disk drives, the better. I would recommend a
4-drive system. I print a lot, so I searched and found a nice 24
pages-per-minute Laser printer. (No longer "supported" in the
Windows world.)
>> For CP/M 2.2, an old MS-DOS emulator (running now in a
>> "DOS Box" under Windows) is "22NICE".
> Emulation under emulation: that's an extreme method to go.
> Although, I must admit, I do have a laptop with only DOS 6.22
> installed on it so that I can use a special cable to transfer
> files to and from a C64. However, the floppy on the laptop is
> kinda toast now and I have did find a replacement.
have a RAMdisk on my Windows system, and do all my CP/M
emulation with 22NICE on the hard disk (in a directory) or on
the RAMdisk. It is only for extreme assembly that I notice a
difference in speed.
>> For CP/M Plus, there is a generic one (not tied to a
>> particular
>> computer system) available on "gaby.de" and "Joyce", an
>> emulator
>> of the Amstrad PCW-8256 (which ran under CP/M Plus).
> Having now read what an Amstrad PCW-8256 actually is, I think
> that Joyce will suit my needs.
didn't make it in the USA, despite being sold by Sears. Stay
with CP/M 2.2, which is hardware-independent. The Amstrads were
using a bit-mapped screen, so you need a good screen emulator to
use their programs.
> (...) The gaby.de website seems like an excellent resource
> for CP/M.
Yes. It is them who have the official paper saying that CP/M was
release to the Public Domain.
> Are the later versions of CP/M (for instance, CP/M Plus)
Yes, in general, if they were well written. (Else, the
troublesome programs disappeared rapidly.)
> Also, are CP/M Plus and CP/M 3 the same thing?
(a total rewrite from scratch, based on the Multi-tasking,
Multi-User MP/M) under the name "CP/M 3" in the USA. But, with
the "IBM Clown" frenzy, the Americans were not interested. 2
years later, Amstrad launched theirs 8-bit microcomputers with
"CP/M Plus", and it was a success all over Europe (except in
France, which was fan of the "Mac").
So, Amstrad saved Digital Research from bankruptcy in 1985, but
DRI continued to decline and, in 1986, finally sold Concurrent
CP/M to IBM, which is still using it, today, under the name IBM
4690 OS. When you use several of its programs, for example the
BASIC compiler, the banner of the compiler displays "Copyright
Digital Research" on the screen...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_4690_OS
(And IBM 4690 BASIC is still compatible with all the CBASIC
programs (like the "classic" program "General Ledger", which was
a best-seller.) ever published by hundreds of people/companies.)
> I'm still open to CP/M book suggestions if anyone has a
> favorite book then please say so.
to those old microcomputer magazines, where you will find
reviews of the best-sellers. Here are a handful of them:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrbill/sets/72157594153699918/?view=md
David Schultz
Oct 31, 2013, 7:05:22 PM10/31/13
to
On 10/31/2013 12:46 PM, bally...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> And, of course, there's Adventure.
>
> True. You can't go anywhere without running into that program. Was
> there an official version of that for CP/M or just dozens of ports
> floating around in the PD arena?
>
I have a copy from The Software Toolworks. (The disk says it is for an
>> And, of course, there's Adventure.
>
> True. You can't go anywhere without running into that program. Was
> there an official version of that for CP/M or just dozens of ports
> floating around in the PD arena?
>
Osborne 1.) It says right here on the glossy packaging:
Officially Endorsed by Adventure's creators, Will Crowther and Don Woods.
Is that official enough? :-)
--
David W. Schultz
http://home.earthlink.net/~david.schultz
Returned for Regrooving
Paul Bartlett
Oct 31, 2013, 7:39:35 PM10/31/13
to
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013, bally...@hotmail.com wrote (excerpted):
>> Being a former COBOL programmer on IBM Mainframes, I mostly
>> program them.
>
> I learned COBOL on an IBM ES/9000 in about 1994/95. It was my first
> formal programming class (I don't count that silly introduction to
> BASIC that was my REAL first programming class).
My first programming was in WATFOR FORTRAN on a (now long since
>> Being a former COBOL programmer on IBM Mainframes, I mostly
>> program them.
>
> I learned COBOL on an IBM ES/9000 in about 1994/95. It was my first
> formal programming class (I don't count that silly introduction to
> BASIC that was my REAL first programming class).
obsolete) IBM 360/30 mainframe in 1968. The Mathematics Department and
Business School argued over who would control it, as the Computer
Science Departmenht did not yet exist in the university I was
attending. Years later I did a bit of COBOL on a job in which FORTRAN
was not quite the right fit. Years after that, I went almost strictly
into IBM S/370 assembly language,
>> As far as I know, no such [CP/M] book exists. The only thing similar
>> that I know of is:
>>
>> http://www.vannattabros.com/history1.html
>
> I've bookmarked it. I've run across quite a few historical websites
> of this sort.
> I have a hard time understanding how there isn't a book about only
> CP/M or Digital Research. I understand that the OS hasn't been
> mainstream in decades, but that means little.
official DRI CP/M 2.2 manual copyrighted 1976-1983. It seems quite
complete (317 pages).
>> As far as I know, the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup is the last place on
>> Earth where CP/M fans gather. As for "Forums", I wrote last week
>> to the man behind the "Vintage Computer Forums": still no
>> answer, one week later...
>
> This statement of yours says a lot. Newsgroups have been around a
> long time (well over thirty years now) and are not tied to one person
> or one website. If that person loses interest, then those forums,
> with all their useful postings just disappear. This is not the case
Fortunately, although even Usenet seems to be dying. :( Newsgroups
have fewer and fewer posts these days. Groups which used to be prolific
day after day (e.g., news.answers) hardly have anything any more.
>> [...] I am often asked if I would mind accepting being
>> *GIVEN* an old system!
>
> I used to collect computers and people giving me computers was
> actually the NORMAL way to get computers. Nobody wanted these
> "worthless" things. That's not the way it is anymore. Now people do
> sell them. In a way I think that Ebay has saved some really neat
> equipment from the trash heap. Then again, it has certainly made
> some people believe that that their trash really is someone's
> treasure when it's simple trash.
in the closet along with all the original software that came with it.
I have not taken it out in years, so I don't know whether the 5 1/4"
diskettes that came with it are still readable.
--
Paul Bartlett
Roger Ivie
Oct 31, 2013, 9:08:57 PM10/31/13
to
On 2013-10-31, Paul Bartlett <bart...@panix.com> wrote:
> I no longer recall where I acquired it from, but I have a PDF of an
> official DRI CP/M 2.2 manual copyrighted 1976-1983. It seems quite
> complete (317 pages).
That and more are available over at Gaby's site, http://cpm.z80.de/
> I no longer recall where I acquired it from, but I have a PDF of an
> official DRI CP/M 2.2 manual copyrighted 1976-1983. It seems quite
> complete (317 pages).
--
roger ivie
ri...@ridgenet.net
Bill Leary
Nov 1, 2013, 12:34:55 AM11/1/13
to
Adam wrote...
> 1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)?
Four.
> Which one(s)?
One custom built, a modified North Star Horizon. These are both floppy
only. The other two both have hard drives. One built around an Ampro
Little Board, the other a Morrow MicroDecision. Only the Ampro based one
still works. At least, I think it does. I haven't powered it up in years.
> Do you actively use it/them?
No.
> What do YOU do with it?
See above. But even if they worked, I probably wouldn't do much with them.
Emulation / simulation is far more convenient.
> 2) CP/M is mostly a business computer, thus there were not many games.
Arguably true.
> Or I don't think that there were.
When mine were running, I mostly used them for programming or document
writing. A lot of the programming was to figure things out at home then use
them at work. This was back when "at work" meant a shop using
minicomputers.
> I know that some did exist-- but there is scant information of them
> that I could find. (I was surprised to learn that there are actually
> CP/M games for CP/M 86.) Do you know much CP/M games...
> besides Infocom games? Did you play any back in the day?
My kids played games on them fairly often. Among them the one you're
looking for. And there was a version of space invaders which ran on a
19,200 BPS serial connected terminal they used fairly often. And, of
course, there was Adventure.
> 3) I'd like to read a history of CP/M-- from a user's perspective. I've
> ((..omitted..))
4) Do you have any experience with CP/M emulation?
Yes.
> If so, which emulator is most commonly used or would work best on a
> Windows 7 64-bit machine?
I don't know about the most common one. The one I use, after trying several,
is an Altair emulating version of SIMH. I run CP/M 2.2, CP/M 3.0, MDOS and
MP/M II on it. I first used it on a Windows ME machine then copied the
directory to Windows Vista and now to Windows 7 Ultimate, 64-bit, where it
works fine.
> I'm looking for the most complete emulator, but also one that is
> pretty easy to get up and running.
I didn't find it difficult to set up, but your experience may be different.
> 5) Are there any active CP/M forums (besides this newsgroup)?
> ((..omitted..)
and when I run the emulator, it's the one I most often use.
- Bill
> First off: I'm a complete newbie with CP/M. I know a bit of its
> ((..omitted..))
> concise. I have eight questions for you all... here goes:
OK. Too many questions for me. But I'll answer a few...
> 1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)?
> Which one(s)?
One custom built, a modified North Star Horizon. These are both floppy
only. The other two both have hard drives. One built around an Ampro
Little Board, the other a Morrow MicroDecision. Only the Ampro based one
still works. At least, I think it does. I haven't powered it up in years.
> Do you actively use it/them?
> What do YOU do with it?
Emulation / simulation is far more convenient.
> 2) CP/M is mostly a business computer, thus there were not many games.
> Or I don't think that there were.
writing. A lot of the programming was to figure things out at home then use
them at work. This was back when "at work" meant a shop using
minicomputers.
> I know that some did exist-- but there is scant information of them
> that I could find. (I was surprised to learn that there are actually
> CP/M games for CP/M 86.) Do you know much CP/M games...
> besides Infocom games? Did you play any back in the day?
looking for. And there was a version of space invaders which ran on a
19,200 BPS serial connected terminal they used fairly often. And, of
course, there was Adventure.
> 3) I'd like to read a history of CP/M-- from a user's perspective. I've
4) Do you have any experience with CP/M emulation?
> If so, which emulator is most commonly used or would work best on a
> Windows 7 64-bit machine?
is an Altair emulating version of SIMH. I run CP/M 2.2, CP/M 3.0, MDOS and
MP/M II on it. I first used it on a Windows ME machine then copied the
directory to Windows Vista and now to Windows 7 Ultimate, 64-bit, where it
works fine.
> I'm looking for the most complete emulator, but also one that is
> pretty easy to get up and running.
> 5) Are there any active CP/M forums (besides this newsgroup)?
> 6) Which version of CP/M is most recommended? Is it version 2.2?
Version 2.2 was probably the most widely used. I used 3.0 for many years
and when I run the emulator, it's the one I most often use.
- Bill
Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
Nov 1, 2013, 3:52:57 AM11/1/13
to
Steve Nickolas wrote:
>> Most of the software remaining were written for CP/M 2.2, as
>> Digital Research went bankrupt just after launching CP/M Plus
>> and its family of IBM PC Operating Systems.
>
> Come on now... DR DOS lasted for years before Novhell took it
> over. =P
Hahaha! Exactly!
>> Most of the software remaining were written for CP/M 2.2, as
>> Digital Research went bankrupt just after launching CP/M Plus
>> and its family of IBM PC Operating Systems.
>
> Come on now... DR DOS lasted for years before Novhell took it
> over. =P
CP/M was a *FAMILY* of operating system, which ran on the 8080,
8086, 68000 and Z-8000 processors....
So, when I talk of a *FAMILY*, I am talking of the CP/M branch.
As far as I know, DR-DOS is not part of the CP/M family (I have
used it several years).
You will notice that, in 1986, Digital Research sold
*CONCURRENT* to IBM, not DR-DOS...
(Or, if you prefer (since you are probably American) IBM was so
much impressed with the technical possibilities of CONCURRENT
than they bought it, rather than MeSs-DOS... How many times did
IBM bought a DOS developed outside it?)
Peter Dassow
Nov 1, 2013, 4:41:26 AM11/1/13
to
On 31.10.2013 23:01, Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France wrote:
>
>> Let me bring this back around to CP/M. What was the most
>> popular programming language for it? I see that TONS of
>> languages were used by hobbyists. Were most commercial
>> programs developed in assembly?
>
> 1) MBASIC.
>
> 2) Yes, in Intel 8080 code, to be portable.
>
> (The only famous exception was Turbo Pascal which used Zilog
> Z-80 code. But you will notice that it has disappeared... I have
> been reading the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup for the last 14 years:
> nobody ever used it during that time frame.)
>
Wow !
>
>> Let me bring this back around to CP/M. What was the most
>> popular programming language for it? I see that TONS of
>> languages were used by hobbyists. Were most commercial
>> programs developed in assembly?
>
> 1) MBASIC.
>
> 2) Yes, in Intel 8080 code, to be portable.
>
> (The only famous exception was Turbo Pascal which used Zilog
> Z-80 code. But you will notice that it has disappeared... I have
> been reading the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup for the last 14 years:
> nobody ever used it during that time frame.)
>
I've never heard such an assumption - that most commercial programs for
CP/M-80 were developed in MBASIC.
The large majority of the *commercial* CP/M applications were programmed
in Assembler. Many hobbyists programmed in BASIC, true. Some later also
in Turbo PASCAL, true. It didn't disappeared, it evolved into Delphi
years later, like MBASIC, which finally became to Visual BASIC.
If Adam would like to get an overview of ALL (not only BASIC)
programming languages which were available for CP/M, he should visit
retroarchive.org or my own pages at z80.eu about programming languages.
Regards
Peter
---
Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und Malware, denn der avast! Antivirus Schutz ist aktiv.
http://www.avast.com
Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
Nov 1, 2013, 5:17:18 AM11/1/13
to
Peter Dassow wrote:
>>> Let me bring this back around to CP/M.
>>> What was the most popular programming language for it?
>> 1) MBASIC.
>>> Let me bring this back around to CP/M.
>>> What was the most popular programming language for it?
>>> Were most commercial programs developed in assembly?
>>
>> 2) Yes, in Intel 8080 code, to be portable.
>>
>> (The only famous exception was Turbo Pascal which used Zilog
>> Z-80 code. But you will notice that it has disappeared... I
>> have
>> been reading the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup for the last 14 years:
>> nobody ever used it during that time frame.)
> Wow !
> I've never heard such an assumption -
> that most commercial programs for CP/M-80 were developed in
> MBASIC.
? Where did you read this, Peter? In your cup of coffee?
>>
>> (The only famous exception was Turbo Pascal which used Zilog
>> Z-80 code. But you will notice that it has disappeared... I
>> have
>> been reading the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup for the last 14 years:
>> nobody ever used it during that time frame.)
> Wow !
> I've never heard such an assumption -
> that most commercial programs for CP/M-80 were developed in
> MBASIC.
Yes, I understand that you *MUST* be *VERY* impressed by what I
write...
> The large majority of the *commercial* CP/M applications were
> programmed in Assembler. Many hobbyists programmed in BASIC,
> true.
Guess who (and *WHY*) developed one "BASCOM" ?
You would be surprised (if you cared to know) to see the number
of *COMMERCIAL* programs for CP/M that were written with BASCOM
!
> Some later also in Turbo PASCAL, true. It didn't disappeared,
> it evolved into Delphi years later
>, like MBASIC, which finally became to Visual BASIC.
clear that MicroShit only wanted to keep the name "BASIC", so
that lemmings would buy it.
> If Adam would like to get an overview of ALL (not only BASIC)
> programming languages which were available for CP/M, he should
> visit retroarchive.org or my own pages at z80.eu about
> programming languages.
Peter!
I cannot resist re-publishing the following list:
C. General Purpose
------------------
1) DOIT Compiler
2) Flow
3) WSFN (= Which Stands For Nothing!...)
4) APL/Z
5) BASEX
6) COBOL
7) FOCAL
8) MUMPS
9) STOIC
10) Dr. Logo
11) Augusta (ADA subset in 24K interpreted MBASIC)
12) MINILANG (A full PL (source and doc) in 28KB...)
13) WADUZIDO (The smallest interpreter known: 256 Bytes!...)
14) BASIC-E
15) Mallard BASIC
16) Tiny Pascal (2 versions: BASIC and 8080 ASM)
17) Tarbell BASIC
18) CBASIC Compiler
19) Tiny BASIC Version 3.0
Reference: "WS4 Files of French Luser", published the 20th of
July 2005 (8 years ago! So, definitely not up to date...) in the
comp.os.cpm Newsgroup.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.cpm/PhyGTHmJB4k
Steve Nickolas
Nov 1, 2013, 6:16:43 AM11/1/13
to
On Fri, 1 Nov 2013, Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France wrote:
> Steve Nickolas wrote:
>
>>> Most of the software remaining were written for CP/M 2.2, as
>>> Digital Research went bankrupt just after launching CP/M Plus
>>> and its family of IBM PC Operating Systems.
>>
>> Come on now... DR DOS lasted for years before Novhell took it
>> over. =P
>
> Hahaha! Exactly!
>
> CP/M was a *FAMILY* of operating system, which ran on the 8080,
> 8086, 68000 and Z-8000 processors....
Your assertion was that they went bankrupt soon after releasing CP/M 3.1,
> Steve Nickolas wrote:
>
>>> Most of the software remaining were written for CP/M 2.2, as
>>> Digital Research went bankrupt just after launching CP/M Plus
>>> and its family of IBM PC Operating Systems.
>>
>> Come on now... DR DOS lasted for years before Novhell took it
>> over. =P
>
> Hahaha! Exactly!
>
> CP/M was a *FAMILY* of operating system, which ran on the 8080,
> 8086, 68000 and Z-8000 processors....
which they did in 1983.
Obviously they lasted longer than that - Novhell had to have their reasons
for buying DR in 1991. If they had gone bankrupt in late 1983, they would
certainly not have still been around in 1991!
> So, when I talk of a *FAMILY*, I am talking of the CP/M branch.
>
> As far as I know, DR-DOS is not part of the CP/M family (I have
> used it several years).
There was "Personal CP/M-86 2" which was a CP/M 4.1 kernel and ran on a
German IBM-compatible. I think this was a stripped-down version of
Concurrent.
There was "DOS Plus 1.2" which was a CP/M 4.1 kernel and an MS-DOS 2.11
emulation layer, and ran on the British IBM-compatible Amstrad 1512.
There was "DOS Plus 2" which was a CP/M 5 kernel with the same emulation
layer, and ran on a 186 expansion unit for the BBC Master, if I recall
correctly. I think John Elliott got this running on a PC using the BIOS
from 1.2.
I've tinkered with all of those.
I think DOS Plus might have been a cut-down Concurrent PC DOS, but don't
quote me. Certainly, it did run CP/M programs out of the box and
supported CP/M filesystems and the CP/M CCP commands worked in its
COMMAND.COM. I believe, but don't quote me, that this is what eventually
evolved into DR DOS 3.4. Whether you could consider this all one family
is debatable.
> (Or, if you prefer (since you are probably American) IBM was so
> much impressed with the technical possibilities of CONCURRENT
> than they bought it, rather than MeSs-DOS... How many times did
> IBM bought a DOS developed outside it?)
-uso.
Peter Dassow
Nov 1, 2013, 7:44:03 AM11/1/13
to
On 01.11.2013 10:17, Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France wrote:
> Peter Dassow wrote:
>
>>>> Let me bring this back around to CP/M.
>>>> What was the most popular programming language for it?
>
>>> 1) MBASIC.
>
>
>>>> Were most commercial programs developed in assembly?
>>>
>>> 2) Yes, in Intel 8080 code, to be portable.
>>>
>>> (The only famous exception was Turbo Pascal which used Zilog
>>> Z-80 code. But you will notice that it has disappeared... I
>>> have
>>> been reading the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup for the last 14 years:
>>> nobody ever used it during that time frame.)
>
>
>> Wow !
>> I've never heard such an assumption -
>> that most commercial programs for CP/M-80 were developed in
>> MBASIC.
>
> ? Where did you read this, Peter? In your cup of coffee?
>
> Yes, I understand that you *MUST* be *VERY* impressed by what I
> write...
I am very impressed about your self-confidence.
> Peter Dassow wrote:
>
>>>> Let me bring this back around to CP/M.
>>>> What was the most popular programming language for it?
>
>>> 1) MBASIC.
>
>
>>>> Were most commercial programs developed in assembly?
>>>
>>> 2) Yes, in Intel 8080 code, to be portable.
>>>
>>> (The only famous exception was Turbo Pascal which used Zilog
>>> Z-80 code. But you will notice that it has disappeared... I
>>> have
>>> been reading the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup for the last 14 years:
>>> nobody ever used it during that time frame.)
>
>
>> Wow !
>> I've never heard such an assumption -
>> that most commercial programs for CP/M-80 were developed in
>> MBASIC.
>
> ? Where did you read this, Peter? In your cup of coffee?
>
> Yes, I understand that you *MUST* be *VERY* impressed by what I
> write...
>> The large majority of the *commercial* CP/M applications were
>> programmed in Assembler. Many hobbyists programmed in BASIC,
>> true.
>
> By the way, since you are talking about MBASIC...
>
> Guess who (and *WHY*) developed one "BASCOM" ?
>
> You would be surprised (if you cared to know) to see the number
> of *COMMERCIAL* programs for CP/M that were written with BASCOM
> !
>
>
>> Some later also in Turbo PASCAL, true. It didn't disappeared,
>> it evolved into Delphi years later
>
> As far as I know, Delphi is not available under CP/M...
>
languages. So I did not narrow it down just to CP/M, like you. It was
ment as a hint that Pascal was going on to be a very popular language
for a long time, like BASIC.
Now both are almost dead, C/C++ and Java made the race.
>> , like MBASIC, which finally became to Visual BASIC.
>
> Which is totally different from MBASIC. In this case, it is
> clear that MicroShit only wanted to keep the name "BASIC", so
> that lemmings would buy it.
who cares about it - Microsoft ? Never...
>
>> If Adam would like to get an overview of ALL (not only BASIC)
>> programming languages which were available for CP/M, he should
>> visit retroarchive.org or my own pages at z80.eu about
>> programming languages.
>
> Hahaha! You must be a covert "Agent Provocateur" from MicroShit,
> Peter!
>
> I cannot resist re-publishing the following list:
>
opinion. I would not try to publish a list about favorite languages from
the past, because this list will never be completed.
Regards
Peter
P.S.: Try to cool down, nobody does harm you nor tried to do so.
Bill Leary
Nov 1, 2013, 10:58:30 AM11/1/13
to
"Peter Dassow" wrote in message
news:5273693d$0$6559$9b4e...@newsspool4.arcor-online.net...
there was a quite a bit of work done in MBASIC and somewhat less in CBASIC,
BASCOM and other similar. I'm talking limited audience commercial software
here. I worked on a CP/M accounting package in MBASIC that was a nightmare
to maintain. "Spaghetti code" would have been an undeserved compliment to
it. Eventually more work turned to Turbo Pascal and C. All this time,
though, there was still quite a bit of assembler. That largely came to an
end when the IBM PC became popular and the software companies wanted to
target both platforms. The best way to do that was to use some high level
language. I saw quite a bit of this multiple-platform target software done
in Turbo Pascal and in C.
Others experiences may not match mine, of course, but that's what I saw
while CP/M-80 was at it's height then went into decline.
- Bill
news:5273693d$0$6559$9b4e...@newsspool4.arcor-online.net...
> On 31.10.2013 23:01, Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France wrote:
>>
>>> Let me bring this back around to CP/M. What was the most
>>> popular programming language for it? I see that TONS of
>>> languages were used by hobbyists. Were most commercial
>>> programs developed in assembly?
>>
>> 1) MBASIC.
>>
>> 2) Yes, in Intel 8080 code, to be portable.
>>
>> (The only famous exception was Turbo Pascal which used Zilog
>> Z-80 code. But you will notice that it has disappeared... I have
>> been reading the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup for the last 14 years:
>> nobody ever used it during that time frame.)
>>
> Wow !
> I've never heard such an assumption - that most commercial programs for
> CP/M-80 were developed in MBASIC.
> The large majority of the *commercial* CP/M applications were programmed
> in Assembler.
For a certain time period, most CP/M software was in assembler. Later,
>>
>>> Let me bring this back around to CP/M. What was the most
>>> popular programming language for it? I see that TONS of
>>> languages were used by hobbyists. Were most commercial
>>> programs developed in assembly?
>>
>> 1) MBASIC.
>>
>> 2) Yes, in Intel 8080 code, to be portable.
>>
>> (The only famous exception was Turbo Pascal which used Zilog
>> Z-80 code. But you will notice that it has disappeared... I have
>> been reading the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup for the last 14 years:
>> nobody ever used it during that time frame.)
>>
> Wow !
> I've never heard such an assumption - that most commercial programs for
> CP/M-80 were developed in MBASIC.
> The large majority of the *commercial* CP/M applications were programmed
> in Assembler.
there was a quite a bit of work done in MBASIC and somewhat less in CBASIC,
BASCOM and other similar. I'm talking limited audience commercial software
here. I worked on a CP/M accounting package in MBASIC that was a nightmare
to maintain. "Spaghetti code" would have been an undeserved compliment to
it. Eventually more work turned to Turbo Pascal and C. All this time,
though, there was still quite a bit of assembler. That largely came to an
end when the IBM PC became popular and the software companies wanted to
target both platforms. The best way to do that was to use some high level
language. I saw quite a bit of this multiple-platform target software done
in Turbo Pascal and in C.
Others experiences may not match mine, of course, but that's what I saw
while CP/M-80 was at it's height then went into decline.
- Bill
Bill Gunshannon
Nov 1, 2013, 11:15:06 AM11/1/13
to
In article <q5adnTO1984_XO7P...@giganews.com>,
What about Pascal MT+? I still have copies of that (and SPP) floating
around here somewhere.
And, at least two COBOL's. And Fortran.
I had all of this stuff way back when. Sure miss those days. If my P112
ever shows up maybe I can do it again. :-)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
around here somewhere.
And, at least two COBOL's. And Fortran.
I had all of this stuff way back when. Sure miss those days. If my P112
ever shows up maybe I can do it again. :-)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Bill Leary
Nov 1, 2013, 11:20:53 AM11/1/13
to
"Bill Gunshannon" wrote in message news:bdhurq...@mid.individual.net...
Saw all of that, but I never encountered anything written in any of them.
As I said, "Other experiences may not match mine...".
- Bill
> In article <q5adnTO1984_XO7P...@giganews.com>,
> "Bill Leary" <Bill_...@msn.com> writes:
>> "Peter Dassow" wrote in message
>> ((..omitted..))
> "Bill Leary" <Bill_...@msn.com> writes:
>> "Peter Dassow" wrote in message
As I said, "Other experiences may not match mine...".
- Bill
Jeff Jonas
Nov 1, 2013, 12:01:19 PM11/1/13
to
> Let me bring this back around to CP/M.
> What was the most popular programming language for it?
Some folks I know will claim "FORTH" is the answer to everything :-)
> What was the most popular programming language for it?
[I was just handling a MicroMint Z8 FORTH SBC
so it's certainly a small footprint for a full environment
of interactive editor & execution]
There was even PL/I for z80 CP/M
but the overhead for the compiler
and run time environment was really high.
I'm sure the size of the resulting object file
and run time just for "hello world" were excessive
compared to assembler or even BASIC.
The early "C" compilers weren't much better.
I didn't enjoy using the Whitesmith "C" compiler.
I suspect later ones were leaner,
faster and more full featured.
What was the best of breed for NATIVE Z80 CP/M?
All this is being re-discovered by the embedded world
(even hobbyists using Arduino):
how much do you code for specific chips or platforms
(to gain speed or features)
vs. portable code.
Many CP/M programs limited themselves to 8080 code
regardless of language (assembler, "C", BASIC)
to allow binary only distribution
even if the Z80 was faster using new instructions.
Contemporary analogies for this:
- Linux kernel on ARM: the most portable one
is the most generic
- libraries and operating systems that use new Intel chip
MMX/SSE instructions when possible, emulate when not.
-- jeffj
bally...@hotmail.com
Nov 1, 2013, 1:21:15 PM11/1/13
to
On Thursday, October 31, 2013 1:00:23 PM UTC-6, bally...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I gave cadigital a phone call to order the book, but there is
> a message that you have to email them. I sent an email to them
I actually heard back from cadigital about the CP/M manuals just a few hours after I sent them a message yesterday. I went ahead and ordered the CP/M manual (and disks). For those that are curious, the response that I got back had more information about the set then what is online. Here is their full response (followed by more comments about CP/M documents by me):
> I gave cadigital a phone call to order the book, but there is
> a message that you have to email them. I sent an email to them
California Digital offers original copies of Digital Research CP/M
for $15 plus shipping.
Each has a unique serial number and includes four pounds of
owner’s manuals. The operating software is supplied on 5.25"
diskette and in generic format. Some have asked if it will directly
operate on their Kaypro, Osborne, Heath or other system.
We really do not know the answer and do not make any warranty
of suitability for your application. The 5,000 copies that we are
currently offering were labeled for the Xerox 1810 Sunrise laptop.
Shipping within the United States is an additional $6.00
I couldn't find a picture of the Xerox 1810 laptop that is referred to in the response, but I did find one of the 1805, which is may be similar. Here's a bit of info about it:
http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=489
As far a CP/M documentation goes I went to the library yesterday and submitted three interlibriary loans for these books that I choose more on their availability than for what may be in them.
1) "CP/M Bible: The Authorative Reference Guide to CP/M" (1983) By Mitchell Waite and John Angermeyer
2) "CP/M Assembly Language Programming" (1983) By Ken Barbier
3) "CP/M Techniques" (1984) by Ken Barbier
Is anyone familiar with these books?
I also managed to find a few scans of CP/M manauls:
1) CP/M Operating Manual - By Digital Research
2) Mastering CPM - By Alan R Miller
3) CP/M Primer - By Stephen Murtha and Michell Waite
4) Osborne CP/M User Guide - By Thom Hogan
I don't really like to read pdfs much, so if I like one of the scanned books then I'll order it (if it's available someplace).
Adam
Bill Leary
Nov 1, 2013, 2:16:30 PM11/1/13
to
"Jeff Jonas" wrote in message news:l50j8f$6h8$1...@panix5.panix.com...
> I suspect later ones were leaner,
> faster and more full featured.
> What was the best of breed for NATIVE Z80 CP/M?
I used Zortech C with pretty good success. Having a hard drive made a huge
difference, but I did start out with it on floppies.
- Bill
> The early "C" compilers weren't much better.
> I didn't enjoy using the Whitesmith "C" compiler.
Nightmare.
> I didn't enjoy using the Whitesmith "C" compiler.
> I suspect later ones were leaner,
> faster and more full featured.
> What was the best of breed for NATIVE Z80 CP/M?
difference, but I did start out with it on floppies.
- Bill
dott.Piergiorgio
Nov 1, 2013, 2:41:03 PM11/1/13
to
Il 01/11/2013 18:21, bally...@hotmail.com ha scritto:
> 4) Osborne CP/M User Guide - By Thom Hogan
>
> I don't really like to read pdfs much, so if I like one of the scanned books then I'll order it (if it's available someplace).
I have the italian xlation of this book, and I confirm that with the
> 4) Osborne CP/M User Guide - By Thom Hogan
>
> I don't really like to read pdfs much, so if I like one of the scanned books then I'll order it (if it's available someplace).
appropriate batch of bookmarks (whose doubles also as custom QRCs) is my
main reference when I hack around CP/M
.pdf has some advantages, the main one that is easy to build (with the
right tools, of course) an "anthology" of the most used info (and, using
Linux and its multiple virtual desktops, the .pdfs are always ready to
be consulted with what I call "three-digit whistle" (ctrl+alt+[arrow],
hence the analogy with ^-alt-del ;) )
if okular has tabs, the setup will be perfected....
Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
Axel Berger
Nov 1, 2013, 6:38:00 AM11/1/13
to
Peter Dassow wrote on Fri, 13-11-01 09:41:
language, only the second was about commercial programming. By numbers
the most programmers and the most programs written by them probably did
use some form of BASIC.
>I've never heard such an assumption - that most commercial programs for
>CP/M-80 were developed in MBASIC.
Emmanuel answered two questions. The first was the most popular
>CP/M-80 were developed in MBASIC.
language, only the second was about commercial programming. By numbers
the most programmers and the most programs written by them probably did
use some form of BASIC.
Ole Christensen
Nov 1, 2013, 6:29:12 PM11/1/13
to
On 2013-11-01 18:21, bally...@hotmail.com wrote:
> As far a CP/M documentation goes I went to the library (...)
then 1/2 the book are waist of coin,... 2de. half OK,
but You are better of with the DRI manual for MAC,...!
> I also managed to find a few scans of CP/M manauls:
>
> I don't really like to read pdfs much, (...)
Find a good PDF-reader for Your OS, there must be something,...!
<ole>
> As far a CP/M documentation goes I went to the library (...)
>
> 2) "CP/M Assembly Language Programming" (1983) By Ken Barbier
For i8080,... If You already know what a computer, and an OS is
> 2) "CP/M Assembly Language Programming" (1983) By Ken Barbier
then 1/2 the book are waist of coin,... 2de. half OK,
but You are better of with the DRI manual for MAC,...!
> I also managed to find a few scans of CP/M manauls:
>
> 4) Osborne CP/M User Guide - By Thom Hogan
If You don't have any manuals for CP/M 2.x then,...(?)
> I don't really like to read pdfs much, (...)
Find a good PDF-reader for Your OS, there must be something,...!
<ole>
Ole Christensen
Nov 1, 2013, 6:30:17 PM11/1/13
to
On 2013-10-31 22:18, Steve Nickolas wrote:>
> And man, I'd love to be able to dig up a Compaq Portable or some
> other ancient luggable XT system. They're just not around.
Compaq Portable 286,
> And man, I'd love to be able to dig up a Compaq Portable or some
> other ancient luggable XT system. They're just not around.
IBM XT, (+ 20Mb),
IBM XT286, (+ 20Mb),
Bondwell (?), (8088 + 20Mb),
Victor PC, (8086 + 20Mb).
Offer,... location Sweden,...
<ole>
Steve Nickolas
Nov 1, 2013, 8:13:50 PM11/1/13
to
-uso.
Jack Fenton
Nov 17, 2013, 1:53:18 PM11/17/13
to
On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 2:18:53 PM UTC-7, bally...@hotmail.com wrote:
> First off: I'm a complete newbie with CP/M. I know a bit of its history, but I've never used it as my OS. I'm currently trying to play around with some CP/M emulators and games and I'm running into brick walls.
>
>
>
> I've used the VICE emulator to run CP/M in Commodore 128 mode and it does work okay in the VERY limited fashion which I've used it (which is just exploring the C128's disk). However, from what I understand, that version of CP/M is a Frankenstein's Monster version of CP/M: it's running on a Z80, but most (all?) of the BIOS calls are actually executed in 6502 using the C128's normal BIOS routines. I guess it's the only CP/M machine to do that (although I'll bet you all can correct me here!). It means that it runs pretty slow (about 2 Mhz rather than the advertised 4Mhz) and isn't as compatible as it could or should be. In 1985 I don't think people probably cared enough to complain.
>
>
>
> My ultimate goal is to run a CP/M text based game called "Space Capture" from a chapter 9 (pages 257-281) of a book called "Z80 Software Gourmet Guide & Cookbook," by Nat Wadsworth. The Z80 listing is in the book. I'd prefer an online version that I don't have to type in at all, but the game is pretty short (well, kinda). Since I can hardly even find any games at all, let alone something unusual like this, I'm sure I'll be typing it in using a hex editor and then figuring out how to get it onto a CP/M "disk" for use with an emulator. I'd point you to a copy of the book online, but I only have the book in print version. If anyone DOES know of a version available online, then please point it out.
>
>
>
> I've already done the usual Google searches using the keywords that came to mind. I DID find plenty of CP/M sites. Most of what I'm coming up with is old material and links.
>
>
>
> I'm not sure if this posting is overwhelming or not (it's pretty long), but I took my time preparing it, and I've tried to be concise. I have eight questions for you all... here goes:
>
>
>
> 1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)? Which one(s)? Do you actively use it/them? What do YOU do with it?
>
I've been collecting different implementatinos of C/PM for while. My favorite is MaxZ80 which is a version of MyZ80 with includes NewZ distribution with modified BDOS and BIOS. I run it under DosBox for WIn7. I used to have WinXP where it ran natively but alas nor more support for 16 bit apps on Win7. I also have several distributions of CP/M run under SIMH which run under both Win/Dosbox. I even created a zCPR3 distribution using Richard Conn's book and the vanilla CP/M 2.2 distribution on SIMH. SIMH is a little harder to set up because to make it relly work right, you need to create a server copy of the OS and then telnet to it to get full terminal emulation. I use Autohotkey to launch my various versions of CPM on my desktop. I did a fair amount of C programming back in the early 80's when CP/M was still the predominant OS. My favorite C compiler for this environment s C80. I even "z Enabled" some of my programs.
>
>
> 2) CP/M is mostly a business computer, thus there were not many games. Or I don't think that there were. I know that some did exist-- but there is scant information of them that I could find. (I was surprised to learn that there are actually CP/M games for CP/M 86.) Do you know much CP/M games... besides Infocom games? Did you play any back in the day?
>
Not much graphical support hence games other than role playing text based games were really the key focus. The power of C/PM was that it could run on so many different platforms and as long as you wrote programs that did not bypass BIOS or BDOS calls, you would run it on all of these machines.
>
>
> 3) I'd like to read a history of CP/M-- from a user's perspective. I've heard the oft-repeated story of how Digital Research missed the boat with IBM, else we'd all use CP/M and then GEM instead of running Microsoft DOS and then Windows (okay, so the Atari ST got GEM... and so did the PC... but it didn't quite catch the world on fire). That's great trivia, but I want to hear a hands-on history of using the machines. Know of any such books? If not, a book about the history of CP/M would be okay... but isn't EXACTLY what I want... but in the absence of anything else that would do fine. In this instance, I'm NOT looking for information on the web.
>
As far as I know there is not a "complete history" document. I'm afraid you have to got the the web and research yourself.
>
For Win - MyZ80, MaxZ80, SIMH - These can also run under Linux under DosBox
For Unix/Linux - Udo Munk's z80mu
>
> 4) Do you have any experience with CP/M emulation? If so, which emulator is most commonly used or would work best on a Windows 7 64-bit machine? I'm looking for the most complete emulator, but also one that is pretty easy to get up and running.
For Win7 you need something that can run 16 bit apps such as DosBox, VMware, or Virtualbox. XP supports native 16 bit apps which most Dos emulators are built upon. The only native 32 bit CP/M emulator that I know of is SIMH.
>
>
>
> 5) Are there any active CP/M forums (besides this newsgroup)? Surely I'm overlooking some active CP/M websites with forums.
>
>
I've been looking for quite a while and this is the only one I see that has any activity. Not much interest by most that I can see on a 20+ year old OS
>
> 6) Which version of CP/M is most recommended? Is it version 2.2? Or does it depend on what you're doing? I'm only trying to emulate a 64K machine.
>
For me Z80Max under Dosbox or NewZ under SIMH
>
>
> 7) Is there some sort of generic covers-it-all CP/M User's Reference Book? I'd like to pick it up used, so a rare one doesn't do me a lot of good. A book that shows up from time on Ebay or Amazon would be most ideal
>
Nope
>
>
> 8) I'm not actively looking to get a CP/M machine. I'd MUCH prefer to emulate it. However, since CP/M was so prevalent, do you know if there is an inexpensive computer that can be bought fairly inexpensively that will run it? I'm guessing that Ebay would be my friend here, but I'm not even sure what I'm looking for...
I would stick with an emulator. They will perform superior over most of the old hardware. I had a home brew S100 based system but the mice ate it when I had it in storage. If you want it to be completely portable, put it all on a USB stick and as long as you have also DosBox. You can move your CP/M system to any of today's Windows based computers.
>
>
>
> I hope that you can at least get me pointed in the right direction. Thanks!
>
>
>
> Adam
Good Luck, Adam!
Jack Fenton (My pen name not my real name)
> First off: I'm a complete newbie with CP/M. I know a bit of its history, but I've never used it as my OS. I'm currently trying to play around with some CP/M emulators and games and I'm running into brick walls.
>
>
>
> I've used the VICE emulator to run CP/M in Commodore 128 mode and it does work okay in the VERY limited fashion which I've used it (which is just exploring the C128's disk). However, from what I understand, that version of CP/M is a Frankenstein's Monster version of CP/M: it's running on a Z80, but most (all?) of the BIOS calls are actually executed in 6502 using the C128's normal BIOS routines. I guess it's the only CP/M machine to do that (although I'll bet you all can correct me here!). It means that it runs pretty slow (about 2 Mhz rather than the advertised 4Mhz) and isn't as compatible as it could or should be. In 1985 I don't think people probably cared enough to complain.
>
>
>
> My ultimate goal is to run a CP/M text based game called "Space Capture" from a chapter 9 (pages 257-281) of a book called "Z80 Software Gourmet Guide & Cookbook," by Nat Wadsworth. The Z80 listing is in the book. I'd prefer an online version that I don't have to type in at all, but the game is pretty short (well, kinda). Since I can hardly even find any games at all, let alone something unusual like this, I'm sure I'll be typing it in using a hex editor and then figuring out how to get it onto a CP/M "disk" for use with an emulator. I'd point you to a copy of the book online, but I only have the book in print version. If anyone DOES know of a version available online, then please point it out.
>
>
>
> I've already done the usual Google searches using the keywords that came to mind. I DID find plenty of CP/M sites. Most of what I'm coming up with is old material and links.
>
>
>
> I'm not sure if this posting is overwhelming or not (it's pretty long), but I took my time preparing it, and I've tried to be concise. I have eight questions for you all... here goes:
>
>
>
> 1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)? Which one(s)? Do you actively use it/them? What do YOU do with it?
>
I've been collecting different implementatinos of C/PM for while. My favorite is MaxZ80 which is a version of MyZ80 with includes NewZ distribution with modified BDOS and BIOS. I run it under DosBox for WIn7. I used to have WinXP where it ran natively but alas nor more support for 16 bit apps on Win7. I also have several distributions of CP/M run under SIMH which run under both Win/Dosbox. I even created a zCPR3 distribution using Richard Conn's book and the vanilla CP/M 2.2 distribution on SIMH. SIMH is a little harder to set up because to make it relly work right, you need to create a server copy of the OS and then telnet to it to get full terminal emulation. I use Autohotkey to launch my various versions of CPM on my desktop. I did a fair amount of C programming back in the early 80's when CP/M was still the predominant OS. My favorite C compiler for this environment s C80. I even "z Enabled" some of my programs.
>
>
> 2) CP/M is mostly a business computer, thus there were not many games. Or I don't think that there were. I know that some did exist-- but there is scant information of them that I could find. (I was surprised to learn that there are actually CP/M games for CP/M 86.) Do you know much CP/M games... besides Infocom games? Did you play any back in the day?
>
Not much graphical support hence games other than role playing text based games were really the key focus. The power of C/PM was that it could run on so many different platforms and as long as you wrote programs that did not bypass BIOS or BDOS calls, you would run it on all of these machines.
>
>
> 3) I'd like to read a history of CP/M-- from a user's perspective. I've heard the oft-repeated story of how Digital Research missed the boat with IBM, else we'd all use CP/M and then GEM instead of running Microsoft DOS and then Windows (okay, so the Atari ST got GEM... and so did the PC... but it didn't quite catch the world on fire). That's great trivia, but I want to hear a hands-on history of using the machines. Know of any such books? If not, a book about the history of CP/M would be okay... but isn't EXACTLY what I want... but in the absence of anything else that would do fine. In this instance, I'm NOT looking for information on the web.
>
As far as I know there is not a "complete history" document. I'm afraid you have to got the the web and research yourself.
>
For Win - MyZ80, MaxZ80, SIMH - These can also run under Linux under DosBox
For Unix/Linux - Udo Munk's z80mu
>
> 4) Do you have any experience with CP/M emulation? If so, which emulator is most commonly used or would work best on a Windows 7 64-bit machine? I'm looking for the most complete emulator, but also one that is pretty easy to get up and running.
For Win7 you need something that can run 16 bit apps such as DosBox, VMware, or Virtualbox. XP supports native 16 bit apps which most Dos emulators are built upon. The only native 32 bit CP/M emulator that I know of is SIMH.
>
>
>
> 5) Are there any active CP/M forums (besides this newsgroup)? Surely I'm overlooking some active CP/M websites with forums.
>
>
I've been looking for quite a while and this is the only one I see that has any activity. Not much interest by most that I can see on a 20+ year old OS
>
> 6) Which version of CP/M is most recommended? Is it version 2.2? Or does it depend on what you're doing? I'm only trying to emulate a 64K machine.
>
For me Z80Max under Dosbox or NewZ under SIMH
>
>
> 7) Is there some sort of generic covers-it-all CP/M User's Reference Book? I'd like to pick it up used, so a rare one doesn't do me a lot of good. A book that shows up from time on Ebay or Amazon would be most ideal
>
Nope
>
>
> 8) I'm not actively looking to get a CP/M machine. I'd MUCH prefer to emulate it. However, since CP/M was so prevalent, do you know if there is an inexpensive computer that can be bought fairly inexpensively that will run it? I'm guessing that Ebay would be my friend here, but I'm not even sure what I'm looking for...
I would stick with an emulator. They will perform superior over most of the old hardware. I had a home brew S100 based system but the mice ate it when I had it in storage. If you want it to be completely portable, put it all on a USB stick and as long as you have also DosBox. You can move your CP/M system to any of today's Windows based computers.
>
>
>
> I hope that you can at least get me pointed in the right direction. Thanks!
>
>
>
> Adam
Good Luck, Adam!
Jack Fenton (My pen name not my real name)
Jack Strangio
Nov 18, 2013, 10:44:06 PM11/18/13
to
bally...@hotmail.com writes:
> 1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)? Which one(s)? Do you actively use it/t=
Horizon which I built from a huge box of components over about 40 hours of
soldering and about another 10 hours of mechanical assembly. This started
off with North Star DOS and then later used CP/M. Then followed a
short-lived attempt with CCS 2422 CP/M. I then used a CPZ-48000
single-board 64K Z80 computer for several years. The latter two systems used
8" floppy disks.
My main thrust was in learning programming languages. But I progressed to
using those in developing software for stock-control and bookkeeping.
> 2) CP/M is mostly a business computer, thus there were not many games.
While I thought games would be fun, I was never able to get the same kick
from game-playing as I did from straight programming challenges.
> 4) Do you have any experience with CP/M emulation? If so, which emulator i=
which is a 64K Z80 machine with 4 360K floppies and two hard disks of up to
30MB (itelsoft.com.au). Unfortunately for you, I have written it to compile
and run on a Linux system.
> 6) Which version of CP/M is most recommended? Is it version 2.2? Or does i=
(MSDOS) and later to Unix, Solaris, and Linux. I never really used Windows,
except with specific software packages in my job.
> 7) Is there some sort of generic covers-it-all CP/M User's Reference Book? =
> I'd like to pick it up used, so a rare one doesn't do me a lot of good. A=
> I hope that you can at least get me pointed in the right direction. Thanks=
> !
>
> Adam
Any time.
Regards,
Jack
--
"That's the beauty of Ethernet. It's with you through thick and thin."
> 1) Do you all have CP/M system(s)? Which one(s)? Do you actively use it/t=
> hem? What do YOU do with it?
My hardware systems have long since gone. My first system was a North Star
Horizon which I built from a huge box of components over about 40 hours of
soldering and about another 10 hours of mechanical assembly. This started
off with North Star DOS and then later used CP/M. Then followed a
short-lived attempt with CCS 2422 CP/M. I then used a CPZ-48000
single-board 64K Z80 computer for several years. The latter two systems used
8" floppy disks.
My main thrust was in learning programming languages. But I progressed to
using those in developing software for stock-control and bookkeeping.
> 2) CP/M is mostly a business computer, thus there were not many games.
from game-playing as I did from straight programming challenges.
> 4) Do you have any experience with CP/M emulation? If so, which emulator i=
> s most commonly used or would work best on a Windows 7 64-bit machine?
My day-to-day CP/M machine these days is my own North Star Horizon emulator
which is a 64K Z80 machine with 4 360K floppies and two hard disks of up to
30MB (itelsoft.com.au). Unfortunately for you, I have written it to compile
and run on a Linux system.
> 6) Which version of CP/M is most recommended? Is it version 2.2? Or does i=
> t depend on what you're doing? I'm only trying to emulate a 64K machine.
I never made the jump to CP/M 3. I went straight from CP/M 2.2 to IBM-DOS
(MSDOS) and later to Unix, Solaris, and Linux. I never really used Windows,
except with specific software packages in my job.
> 7) Is there some sort of generic covers-it-all CP/M User's Reference Book? =
> I'd like to pick it up used, so a rare one doesn't do me a lot of good. A=
> book that shows up from time on Ebay or Amazon would be most ideal
I like Cortesi's 'Inside CP/M'
> I hope that you can at least get me pointed in the right direction. Thanks=
> !
>
> Adam
Any time.
Regards,
Jack
--
"That's the beauty of Ethernet. It's with you through thick and thin."
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