Michigan / Ohio / Indiana Help Needed
Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
floppies containing the last copy of 2 Programming Languages that ran under
CP/M (They were 3 programmers: One died from cancer, the other disappeared
in California 10 years ago. So, he is, most likely, the last man on Earth
with the floppies containing those 2 Programming Languages, but has problems
reading them...)
Emmanuel,
I spent 2 hours or so yesterday using the 22disk1.4.4 or whatever it is
called... unsuccessfully...
At least some of my floppy disks say DySan 104/1D 800226 35 tracks
None of the settings in the DEF files seem to match this...
I talked to a friend this morning , who has a working KayPro computer, and
he thinks he also has a program of some sort that runs on the PC to convert
floppies...
He also thinks he might have a PC CP/M that can run on a DOS computer...
might be able to read them.
Do you have any documentation on the various floppy specs that fit the
22disk?
I looked at the DEF file for the European stuff, but did not see anything
there.
Seems like there should be some open source that would read anything on any
floppy... one sector at a time, if necessary....
I have 8 floppies with either SL5 or StackWorks Forth 2.0 on them. so
hopefully some will still be good...
There are also 4-5 more with WordStar & CP/M stuff on them...
Do you have any other suggestions?
Do you know anyone in the Michigan/Ohio/Indiana area who is active in this
stuff...?
Dave
Howard Harte
I would suggest using Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk program to make disk
images of the floppies. This will preserve the contents of the disks,
without regard to the actual CP/M filesystem details. ImageDisk
images can then be manipulated using other tools, like cpmtools or a
simulator, to extract the files.
I have used ImageDisk to archive hundreds of floppies. I have been
able to extract files from all of the CP/M disks, but some were for
other operating systems, and I have not been able to do much with
them, but at least having the images allows me to be able to make
copies of the disk, and to look at the contents with a hex editor to
determine relative value.
I don't remember the web address to Dave's site offhand, but there is
a link to it from my 86dos site:
Http://www.86dos.org
I would strongly recommend ImageDisk, to save the disk contents,
rather than other forms of manipulation, which could alter/damage the
originals. If images are made, I will be glad to extract the files.
-Howard
Howard Harte
> On Nov 24, 2:32 am, "Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France"
> are:
>
> Are the disks hard sector or soft sector?
>
> Do you know the original computer type the disks originate from?
>
> If its NorthStar, Heath, or Vector Graphic chances are they are hard
> sector disks.
>
> Thanks! Have a nice day!
>
> Andrew Lynch
Good point. It is easy to tell if they are hard sector by rotating
the disk and counting the holes. I would assume the 104/1D means
single-density. North Star used 35 tracks, so they could be
Northstar. Vector used 77 tracks, so likely not that. Not sure about
Heath.
ImageDisk will only work with soft-sectored disks, but can work with
single-density given the appropriate disk controller. In fact, I have
an Intel Core2 motherboard with Winbond I/O chip that can read/write
single-density.
But if the disks are hard sector, 35-track, that would narrow it down
to most likely a North Star, and there are still plenty of those still
operational.
-Howard
Dennis Boone
> stuff...?
I think several posters here are from this area. I'm in Michigan,
Andrew is, I believe, in Ohio.
De
Tom Lake
"Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France" <Roch...@Laposte.Net> wrote in message
news:492a588e$0$953$ba4a...@news.orange.fr...
> Got the following message from an American who need help to read some
> floppies containing the last copy of 2 Programming Languages that ran under
> CP/M (They were 3 programmers: One died from cancer, the other disappeared
> in California 10 years ago. So, he is, most likely, the last man on Earth
> with the floppies containing those 2 Programming Languages, but has problems
> reading them...)
What two languages are they? I find it hard to believe that those were the
*last*
two copies on Earth.
Tom Lake
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> What two languages are they? I find it hard to believe that those were the
> *last* two copies on Earth.
Answer: SL5 and StackWorks Forth 2.0
The first version of their System Language was named SL5, but they did
not know that this name had been used, on Mainframes, for porting
SNOBOL. So, for Version 2.0, they renamed it "StackWorks Forth". For
more information:
http://maben.homeip.net:8217/static//S100/software/assembler/SL5%20Programming%20Language.pdf
Yours Sincerely,
Mr. Emmanuel Roche; France
Greegor
wrote:
> Tom Lake wrote:
> > What two languages are they? I find it hard to believe that those were the
> > *last* two copies on Earth.
>
> Answer: SL5 and StackWorks Forth 2.0
>
> The first version of their System Language was named SL5, but they did
> not know that this name had been used, on Mainframes, for porting
> SNOBOL. So, for Version 2.0, they renamed it "StackWorks Forth". For
> more information:
>
>
> Yours Sincerely,
> Mr. Emmanuel Roche; France
Isn't Anadisk still out there?
Herb Johnson
> Got the following message from an American who need help to read some
> floppies containing the last copy of 2 Programming Languages that ran under
> CP/M
> Emmanuel,
>
> I spent 2 hours or so yesterday using the 22disk1.4.4 or whatever it is
> called... unsuccessfully...
>
> At least some of my floppy disks say DySan 104/1D 800226 35 tracks
> Do you know anyone in the Michigan/Ohio/Indiana area who is active in this
> stuff...?
>
> Dave
"Dysan 104/1D", from Google searching, appear to be soft-sectored
diskettes. So hard-sectoring is not likely an issue. Dave apparently
is not able to use tools like 22disk, so it would seem that other
tools (anadisk, disk image) may also be difficult for him to use. That
said, if "Dave" can try ImageDisk it would be informative and possibly
it can extract the disk image, which could be emailed to others.
Details and the program are available at:
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/
For now, "Dave" seems to be requesting some direct help, some personal
contact, a visit by him or to him LOCALLY. I recommend that "Dave" (or
Emmanuel) post here in comp.os.cpm, exactly where he is by city and
state (not an address of course), so someone can decide he or she is
"nearby" and contact him. Some private emails between Emmanuel and
persons offering to help, will connect such persons directly to
"Dave". That may get things done.
Herb Johnson
retrotechnology.com
Howard Harte
I'm sure you can find a copy of it on the net. Anadisk is good, but
in my opinion, ImageDisk is better, and is supported. In addition,
Dave Dunfield provides utilities for manipulating the images, and the
file format is an open standard. The images are directly usable by
the SIMH simulator. The IMD module I wrote for SIMH provides a simple
API for low-level disk access to IMD images. It is open-source, and
free for any purpose (is, not encumbered by the GPL) is highly
portable, and has had several enhancements and bugfixes supplied by
members of this group.
The great thing about the ImageDisk format is that it preserves disk
data as well as metadata like per-track density and skew information,
so a disk can be re-created exactly like the original, from the
image. The only thing it can't do is re-create physical errors on a
disk (although this information is present in the image) because
floppy disk controllers won't let you do this. Is, the "correct" CRC
is calculated by the controller, at least on all standard PC
controllers.
-Howard
Ole Christensen
For the SuperSoft SL5 i do have a copy,
i take it the next time i have 22Disk up and running,
do You want it?
Also i do have SuperSoft C 1.2.0, i know, it is not Your cup
of tee, but there could be other reading this.
The "stdio.h" is broken, else OK, (can't do anything with FILE),
top of "stdio.h" tell:
/* Copyrighted (c) by SuperSoft, Inc., 1982 */
/* stdio.h for stdio.c edit 38 and C 1.2.0
*
* This file should be included by all programs that use stdio.c
* This file generates no code.
*/
And last, just one more thing for the record:
On "The Unofficial CP-M Web Site" there is a corrupt copy of
DRI CBASIC Version 2.8. And because i do have a couple of
copy's i send one to Gaby, that is month ago and still
the corrupt version is for download!
The Q is: do i need to send it to one of the "Prominent"
guest of this group?
Have a nice day!
<ole>
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> For the SuperSoft SL5 i do have a copy,
> i take it the next time i have 22Disk up and running,
> do You want it?
Yes, of course! Even Dave, one of the 3 original programmers, cannot
physically get it! (If you want a WS4 file containing the SuperSoft
manual as found in the PDF file, ask me. Dave told me that their
version contained the full source code, while the one I retyped (the
PDF file containing only the documentation) was the SuperSoft
version.)
> Also i do have SuperSoft C 1.2.0, i know, it is not Your cup
> of tee, but there could be other reading this.
Yes, namely: Peter Dassow, which has a Web site with copies of all the
C compilers ever made for CP/M:
> And last, just one more thing for the record:
> On "The Unofficial CP-M Web Site" there is a corrupt copy of
> DRI CBASIC Version 2.8. And because i do have a couple of
> copy's i send one to Gaby, that is month ago and still
> the corrupt version is for download!
> The Q is: do i need to send it to one of the "Prominent"
> guest of this group?
For the record: "Gaby" is the wife (?) of Helmut Jungkunz, which was
behind "Znode-51". That's why he does not know CP/M, since he was a
fan of ZCPM. If you really want him to host a file on his Web site
(running under Windows), I suggest contacting him directly.
> Have a nice day!
Yoo, too!
Yours Sincerely,
Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
DeltaT
3378 Cromwell RD
Ann Arbor
MI 48105
USA
If I have well understood, he no longer has a CP/M computer, and is
having trouble reading a handful of old 5 "/4" floppies containing the
last copies of his work.
No news from him since Sunday.
dave
> having trouble reading a handful of old 5 "/4" floppies containing the
> last copies of his work.
>
> No news from him since Sunday.
>
> Yours Sincerely,
> Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
Thank you very much for finding me Emmanuel ...
It has been more than 20 years since I did anything with CP/M and
it will interesting to get these converted...
We never did anything with hard sectored disks.
Stackworks Forth came with a compiler compiler and can be adapted to
any micro.
So for those who have a need it, could be easily adapted to the
smaller micros today...
I will try imagedisk... and let you all know...sounds promising.
Getting my brain back that far is a challenge. It is nice to know
there is help.
I erased my address from this post... it would be good to do the same
with the previous one, if possible. Although, in the US nothing is
secret anymore.
I will let you know how it goes... might be a couple days before I can
get to this again... Thanksgiving holiday coming up.
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm is the link ...
These floppies were written on several different computers I think.
At least one was a very very early superbrain... my computers were
homemade multibus Z80s. so who knows what the floppy was... they
were originally 8 inch. and we upgraded at one point. Thanks to
all.
no....@no.uce.bellatlantic.net
<Roch...@Laposte.Net> wrote:
> DySan 104/1D
That is the same number as on my box os 10 sector disks used for NS*
MDS (single density, 10 sector, 35 tracks). If so those are NOT
readable with standard PC running any software. Minimally you need a
NS* system or a catsweasel style board.
Allison
Uwe Nass
Hi Emmanuel,
the mentioned .pdf file isn't printable (SECURED) !!!
Any hints,
Uwe.
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
If you have received nothing from me, send me a valid reply address.
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
Well... Since there is some activity about SL5, maybe you could read
the manual, while waiting?
(One of the WordStar disks of Dave should contain the original
manual.)
(If you really want to print the 25+ years old manual, try:
http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/manuals/sl5.pdf
Tom Lake
>
> Hi Emmanuel,
>
> the mentioned .pdf file isn't printable (SECURED) !!!
>
> Any hints,
The owner password is the three characters
mse
Tom Lake
Barry Watzman
including North Star and Heathkit.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
dave
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:32:26 +0100, "Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France"
>
> > DySan 104/1D
>
> That is the same number as on my box os 10 sector disks used for NS*
> MDS (single density, 10 sector, 35 tracks). If so those are NOT
> readable with standard PC running any software. Minimally you need a
> NS* system or a catsweasel style board.
>
> Allison
-------------------------
This does not sound good... Would a KayPro be able to read these?
This URL has a scan of several of the floppy labels...
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=44964&l=94b5a&id=557477209
I have resurrected a 486 and installed a 5.25 floppy, and DOS5.0... I
also have 4.01orsomething like that...
I will try to do more testing of the floppies tomorrow orSunday...but
If I cannot read them I do not want to be
subjecting them to repeated failures..
I have never been a part of any use group, so I apologize, if this is
not the right process... Dave
dave
> On Nov 25, 10:41 pm, no.s...@no.uce.bellatlantic.net wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:32:26 +0100, "Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France"
>
> > <Roche...@Laposte.Net> wrote:
> > > DySan 104/1D
>
> > That is the same number as on my box os 10 sector disks used for NS*
> > MDS (single density, 10 sector, 35 tracks). If so those are NOT
> > readable with standard PC running any software. Minimally you need a
> > NS* system or a catsweasel style board.
>
> > Allison
>
> -------------------------
> This does not sound good... Would a KayPro be able to read these?
>
> I have resurrected a 486 and installed a 5.25 floppy, and DOS5.0... I
> also have 4.01orsomething like that...
> I will try to do more testing of the floppies tomorrow orSunday...but
> If I cannot read them I do not want to be
> subjecting them to repeated failures..
>
> I have never been a part of any use group, so I apologize, if this is
> not the right process... Dave
FYI .. StackWorksForth was always CP/M based and Always used a
standard file and a standard CP/M editor (for the most part we used
WordStar, which I have on another floppy). At my suggestion Michael
Brothers ( I am going to trackhim down... soon) wrote StackWorks Forth
in Forth and created a compiler compiler to create a given system.
Every Forth systems has a built in assembler, so that by changing the
assembler we could re-compile onto a different micro-processor. We
did not do very much of this,...the Z8 for certain and a few others.
SL5 was our first version , which we sold to the people in Champaigne
IL. They promised us as part of the deal that they would be doing
full page adds in various magazines every month, which they did only
once. That relationship was doomed from that point, so we went on to
develop version 2.0 . I do not remember the details, but it was a
much better system. The compiler compiler also allowed us to create
a small rom based kernel which was 1K bytes in size and we implemented
some very useful embedded applications in <4K. The Forth community
did not accept us, because we refused to implement their usual file
system, which was incompatible with everything else. All of these
options are probably still in the code on these floppies. We sold a
scaled down version with no cross compiler, but most were full
versions and included all source.
Now what I need is to know if my old 486 will read these 35 track
floppies or not... at least 2 of them are marked 128, whatever that
might indicate. I am in Ann Arbor MI, so if anyone lives in SE
Michigan, perhaps I could drive to visit them. And/or I am going to
discuss getting these onto a KayPro... What should I be looking for
on the KayPro to convert them into something I can read on my PC?
Will a KayPro handle a 3.5" floppy?
dave
> 10-sector hard-sectored media was used in a lot of late 1970's systems
> including North Star and Heathkit.
>
> > On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:32:26 +0100, "Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France"
> > <Roche...@Laposte.Net> wrote:
>
> >> DySan 104/1D
>
> > That is the same number as on my box os 10 sector disks used for NS*
> > MDS (single density, 10 sector, 35 tracks). If so those are NOT
> > readable with standard PC running any software. Minimally you need a
> > NS* system or a catsweasel style board.
>
> > Allison
>
> ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**
from Dave DeLauter
http://deltatns.com/StackWorksForth/
has a jpg file of a scan of the floppy labels..
AGAIN... These are NOT HARD SECTOR ... If you have a DySan
104/1D ..note that these are
PN 800226 which has only an index hole...
Can someone tell me that I might be able to read these on the 486, or
at least I am not going to easily destroy them by testing... I ran
TESTFDC on one floppy that had Pascal on it. A number of things
passed, but I have no idea what to look for. I only have maybe one
other floppy of this type that I can sacrifice, so I am reluctant to
proceed without some input. Thanks. Dave
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
Many thanks for the historical information about SL5 and StackWorks
Forth.
After reading the SL5 manual, I was convinced that it was worth being
saved.
Now, I am all the more convinced that your 2 Programming Languages
really deserve to be saved.
So, I am urging any American who can help Dave to act before it is too
late.
Dave Dunfield
>AGAIN... These are NOT HARD SECTOR ... If you have a DySan
>104/1D ..note that these are
>PN 800226 which has only an index hole...
>Can someone tell me that I might be able to read these on the 486, or
>at least I am not going to easily destroy them by testing... I ran
>TESTFDC on one floppy that had Pascal on it. A number of things
>passed, but I have no idea what to look for. I only have maybe one
>other floppy of this type that I can sacrifice, so I am reluctant to
>proceed without some input. Thanks. Dave
If you are talking about my TESTFDC ... *DON'T* run it on floppy
disks that have things you want to keep - TESTFDC does not care
at all about the previous content of the disk - it will work with any
scratch disk (as long as it's not damaged). TESTFDC tests the
controller/drive combination, but does NOT tell you anything about
the content of a floppy disk - that TESTFDC "passes" does not
tell you that the disk was readable on that same controller/drive
combination before TESTFDC formatted/wrote/read the last
5 tracks. (The reason it only touches the last 5 tracks is NOT to
try and preserve previous content - it allows you to create a
DOS bootable disk with TESTFDC which can be used to test
systems without having to install a DOS boot on the HD).
If you want to determine the format of a diskette, run ImageDisk.
ImageDisk will perforn an analysis - the catch is that if the disk
contains single-density and your controller/drive cannot read
SD, ImageDisk won't be able to analyze those tracks - thats
where TESTFDC comes in useful - it can help you find a
controller/drive combination that works in single-density.
But this is only an issue of ImageDisk reports tracks that it
cannot analyze.
If the disks are soft-sector, then there's a good chance that
ImageDisk will be able to read them (but there are soft-sector
formats that the PC hardware simply cannot read) - you may
need to scrounge around for hardware that works if they contain
SD.
If ImageDisk can't read them, then you will need the original
system, or something like a Catweasel (a bit-level floppy
disk system that can read "most anything" - but decoding
usable data from the bit-stream can be daunting).
I've got a fair bit of information about archiving floppy disks
on my site (see "Disks/Software link" near end of main page,
and in the ImageDisk documentation. I've also got tools for
extracting disk images via the serial port from CP/M systems
which works for non-standard/unreadable disk formats.
Dave
dave
TestFDC... My 486 DOS 5 was not able to read one of these, so I am
down to waiting to hear from Dennis Boone, (#5 in this thread) whom I
sent an email to yesterday. I am also going to talk tomorrow with the
guy who has the KayPro & will try to get together with him to read a
disk... the serial port option you mention above might prove
useful... At least, if we get together we can find out if we still
have readable media. more later IMD is pretty cool. I will
repost on Monday. Thanks. The Internet is amazing.
Rolf Harrmann
On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 18:10:13 +0100, Ole Christensen wrote:
>For the SuperSoft SL5 i do have a copy,
>i take it the next time i have 22Disk up and running,
>do You want it?
>
>Also i do have SuperSoft C 1.2.0, i know, it is not Your cup
>of tee, but there could be other reading this.
you have the SuperSoft C 1.2.0.
I have interest in this Supersoft C 1.2.0.
Have a nice day!
Rolf
Rolf Harrmann
On Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:31:41 -0800 (PST), dave wrote:
>Now what I need is to know if my old 486 will read these 35 track
>floppies or not... at least 2 of them are marked 128, whatever that
>might indicate. I am in Ann Arbor MI, so if anyone lives in SE
>Michigan, perhaps I could drive to visit them. And/or I am going to
>discuss getting these onto a KayPro... What should I be looking for
>on the KayPro to convert them into something I can read on my PC?
>Will a KayPro handle a 3.5" floppy?
have you a Commodore 128?
Jugg'ler-128 is an easy to use program for the Commodore C-128
personal computer (in CP/M mode) with a 1570, 1571 and/or a 1581 disk
drive which provides read, write and formatting support for more than
140 types of CP/M disks.
Ole Christensen
Hello Emmanuel,
No nothing from You...
Did You receive mail #1, (with SL5),?
Did You receive mail #2 ?
<ole>
Ole Christensen
Hello Rolf,
I will be happy to send You a copy...
tomorrow i will fix it!
<ole>
Rolf Harrmann
On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:21:29 +0100, Ole Christensen wrote:
>Hello Rolf,
>
>I will be happy to send You a copy...
>
>tomorrow i will fix it!
>
><ole>
Many thanks for your E-Mail.
microlo...@yahoo.com
Hello! I really should get in here more often. I'm just reading this
now, so maybe/hopefully you already have a solution to your problem.
If not, although I'm FAR from knowledgeable with this stuff, I have a
basement full of Kaypros and I'm in Roseville (I-94/I-696 area) so
maybe this is the perfect time to ressurect these beasties of mine and
see if they'll read your floppies!