true sbc --- new/old Z-80 CP/M
s100guy
that I designed using bits and pieces of old/new hardware and
software. It is a 10 MHz Z-80 with on-board 1 MB RAMdisk (battery
backed) and an IDE interface based on Phil Ruston's work
(www.retroleum.co.uk). There are no exotic or programmable parts
(except a 27C256 system EPROM). The board (without IDE attached)
draws a little over 200 ma (5v only). I used HCT wherever possible.
There are 2 classic serial ports on the board, one is the system
console, and the other can be used to run XMODEM to another computer,
or (my favorite) there is a 5-pin socket for insertion of a UDrive
(www.4dsystems.com.au). I have a working "udir" (gives directory of
the uDrive), and "uread" (downloads files from the uDrive). I'm
working on "uwrite" (will upload files to the uDrive). For those of
you not familiar with the uDrive it is a tiny (postage stamp sized)
board that provides access to a micro SD memory card (the type that
are used in cameras and cell phones) with capacities of up to 2GB.
Beyond that, the technology becomes SDHC, and I don't know if
4dsystems plans to support that.
The system comes up with the EPROM at 0000-7FFF, and it can be toggled
in and out of the memory map with I/O to port 04. System memory is
two 32kx8 SRAMS (skinny dip). Connectors are provided for an off-
board reset switch, battery for the RAMdisk, and power (same connector
that is used on a 3.5" floppy drive). That power connector makes it
very easy to use a small PC power supply, if a *real* hard drive is
the IDE device. A photo of the board can be viewed at www.speakeasy.org/~rzh/sbc.jpg.
There is a full-featured monitor program in EPROM, as well as an image
of CP/M, and several useful applications. The applications can be
loaded to disk with a combination of the "Q n" monitor command, and a
"save nn file.typ" to the resulting CP/M prompt. At power up, you are
looking at the monitor prompt. Use of the "C" monitor command starts
CP/M (very quickly, I might add). The A: drive is the RAMdisk, and as
CP/M is presently configured, B: and C: are on the IDE device.
Overall, the system is *very* responsive.
The IDE interface can be picky about *real* hard drives. Some work
well, and some don't. BUT, I use an IDE adapter to a compact flash
module, and have had *very* good luck with compact flash. An
additional benefit is that a very wimpy 5v supply (only) is all that
is required with a compact flash "hard drive".
I must acknowledge the help of Dr. Acula (hi James!) with many aspects
of this project.
James Moxham (Dr_Acula)
Two serial ports. Compact Flash. IDE drives. micro SD card. 10Mhz
clock speed. A battery backed RAM disk. CP/M in EPROM.
And check out the layout - I'll bet those traces were done by hand and
not with an autorouter.
(just a note, the links seem to come up with "www.google.com" in front
of the http, so I clicked on them then manually removed the google.com
bit and the links now work)
Any chance of a photo with CP/M on a monitor?
BruceMcF
> (just a note, the links seem to come up with "www.google.com" in front
> of the http, so I clicked on them then manually removed the google.com
> bit and the links now work)
If you are reading it in Google Groups, that's an artifact, if links
are not given in full URL form.
IDE interface based on Phil Ruston's work: http://www.retroleum.co.uk
UDrive: http://www.4dsystems.com.au
A photo of the board can be viewed at: http://www.speakeasy.org/~rzh/sbc.jpg
.
s100guy
<moxh...@internode.on.net> wrote:
..... <snip> .....
> And check out the layout - I'll bet those traces were done by hand and
> not with an autorouter.
Layout was done with KiCAD, but routed by hand. This is a first try,
and the only error was that the polarity of polarized caps. got
reversed on the silkscreen.
.... <snip> ....
> Any chance of a photo with CP/M on a monitor?
Sure -- check out http://www.speakeasy.org/~rzh/screen.jpg Sorry for
the quality. It's hard to get a good shot of a computer screen!
It shows the "C" monitor command to start up CP/M, and then a
directory listing of the RAMdisk (A:) using the old "SD" program
(modified slightly). Then there is a "udir" to show the contents of
the uDrive that I have plugged into the board. Then a directory
listing of the IDE drive (B:), a compact flash module. I would have
done a "d c:" as well, but it is the same (I "nswp"ed B: to C:). Oh,
and I realize that the free space given for B: is overly optimistic,
and that CP/M is supposedly "broken" and will not properly address
more than about 8Mb. It is a simple matter to fix that. Anybody know
*exactly* how much disk CP/M (2.2) can address?
Roger
[Sorry for the broken links in the previous post. The one above
*ought* to work OK.]
James Moxham (Dr_Acula)
sometimes focus on something at the top of the monitor, then of course
half the picture needs deleting so a quick bit of work in photoshop.
Or manual focus (which is buried somewhere in the menu of my camera).
I think from memory the max size of a CP/M 2.2 drive is 8192 bytes.
Which uarts did you end up using?
s100guy
<moxh...@internode.on.net> wrote:
....<snip>.....
> I think from memory the max size of a CP/M 2.2 drive is 8192 bytes.
You mean 8192 *K* bytes? Exactly?
> Which uarts did you end up using?
I've used both DART and SIO/0. Both seem to do OK. Futurlec was out
of DARTs last time I tried to order them, and they said that they were
having trouble getting them in. SIO/0 is still available from
Jameco. Maybe other places? I probably should move up to the SCC, or
something similar? I like the option of having 2 serial ports on a
single chip.
Roger
James Moxham (Dr_Acula)
are using in the propeller emulation and looking at it in a binary
editor, it goes to 0 to 7FFFFF in hex.I think that is 0 to 8388607 in
decimal and because there is a byte at 0, that is 8388608 buytes.
Which is the size windows reports as well.
DART and SIO. What is the "SCC"?
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
(One slight problem with your nickname, s100guy, is that it is
sometimes difficult, to remember who you are, exactly.)
I have followed your progression, since 2008. Not bad.
> I realize that the free space given for B: is overly optimistic,
> and that CP/M is supposedly "broken" and will not properly address
> more than about 8Mb. It is a simple matter to fix that. Anybody know
> *exactly* how much disk CP/M (2.2) can address?
Well, I am not a fan of CP/M 2.2 but, according to the manual:
"After modification, you can utilize the STAT program to
check drive
characteristics, because STAT uses the disk parameter block to
decode the
drive information:
A>stat d:dsk:
This command decodes the disk parameter block for drive d (d=A through
P), and
displays the following values:
r: 128-byte record capacity
k: kilobyte drive capacity
d: 32-byte directory entries
c: checked directory entries
e: records/extent
b: records/block
s: records/track
t: reserved tracks
Three examples of DISKDEF macro invocations are shown
below, with
corresponding STAT parameter values. The last example produces an 8-
Megabyte
system:
DISKDEF 0,1,58,,2048,256,128,128,2
r=4096, k=512, d=128, c=128, e=256, b=16, s=58, t=2
DISKDEF 0,1,58,,2048,300,0,2
r=16384, k=2048, d=300, c=0, e=128, b=16, s=58, t=2
DISKDEF 0,1,58,,16384,512,128,128,2
r=65535, k=8192, d=128, c=128, e=1024, b=128, s=58, t=2
(Personal CP/M System Guide, section 5, Disk definition information,
1984, Digital Research)
Hope that helps.
(If you want the whole Section, send me a message. I don't seem to
have your e-mail address.)
Yours Sincerely,
Mr. Emmanuel Roche, France
Peter Dassow
>> Any chance of a photo with CP/M on a monitor?
>
> Sure -- check out http://www.speakeasy.org/~rzh/screen.jpg Sorry for
> the quality. It's hard to get a good shot of a computer screen!
>
> It shows the "C" monitor command to start up CP/M, and then a
Wow, really pretty cool. All pcb layouts are easy available ?
Btw. much cooler but more difficult will be a sbc with a VGA video
output (so nobody will be forced to use an additional terminal or PC)...
Regards
Peter
James Moxham (Dr_Acula)
> Wow, really pretty cool. All pcb layouts are easy available ?
> Btw. much cooler but more difficult will be a sbc with a VGA video
> output (so nobody will be forced to use an additional terminal or PC)...
>
> Regards
> Peter
That is a very good idea, Peter.
I think you could do that with existing designs. Take the PockeTerm
http://www.brielcomputers.com/wordpress/?cat=6
That would do VGA monitor and keyboard. And it could give you access
to the 8mb drive images used by the Altair simh. Also there are still
some spare pins, so you could add 4 serial ports as well. The
Pocketerm talks via a standard serial port, but if you wanted you
could leave out two max232 gates and talk directly to a uart. So you
give up one serial port but gain 4 ports.
At the very least it is a solution for keyboard => serial, and serial
=> vga So you could test it using a seperate pocketerm board and if
it all seems to work, theoretically it could all end up on one big
board.
Holger Petersen
I would prefer an _configurable_ Floppy-Controller to be able to read old
CP/M-Disks in all possible formats...
- From NEC-Mode to WD-Mode and perhaps Apple-][ as well as Commodore :-)
- To use 8", 5.25", 3.5" and 3.0" (Joyce) drives.
just dreaming, Holger
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> I would prefer an _configurable_ Floppy-Controller to be able
> to read old CP/M-Disks in all possible formats...
> just dreaming, Holger
Hahaha! No, you are not dreaming, Holger!
It has been made several times.
1) I seem to remember one UNIFORM program, for instance.
2) The CP/M User Group (UK) was using, to transfer among all the CP/M
floppy formats of its 4,000 members, an (English) Transam Tuscan:
that's why I reacted when one Englishman found one. Since then, he
disappeared... Too bad: with my collection, it would be very useful.
The Transam Tuscan was using an interactive table-driven BIOS under CP/
M 2.2.
3) Under CP/M Plus, the best way to read CP/M floppies is (the German
electronics engineer) Tilmann Reh's CPU-280, which has a very
sophisticated BIOS. One day, I sent him an 8" floppy, and he
transferred its contents (it was the first time that he connected an
8" drive to his CPU-280). Unfortunately, only less than 50 CPU-280s
were built and, at the time, I never had the money to buy one. I
wonder what the people who were rich enough to buy it, in my humble
opinion, except for graphics, the best CP/M Plus computer ever made,
are doing with them? They never appear on the comp.os.cpm Newsgroup.
4) Finally, a radical solution is to bypass CP/M floppies: Hence my
interest in CP/NET and the Ultra-Low-Cost Network. The idea is to
connect one RS-232C port of each CP/M computer to a network and, when
needed, either transfer or work directly on the file(s) on/to/from
another computer (which can run under CP/M, MS-DOS, "DOS Box" under
Windows, or FlexOS). The least that can be said is that, regarding
Networks, Digital Research was 20 years in advance of MeSsy-DOS.
MikeS
Very nicely done indeed!
FWIW I still have some Z80 chips available, specifically:
Z80 CPU
CTC
DART
SIO
Mostly -A 4MHz parts, some -B's; untested pulls, but I haven't had
any complaints yet.
Also some EPROMS but probably too small; mostly 2716 and 27128.
Almost free, but shipping from Toronto !
mike
delta mike five six one at torfree dot net
BruceMcF
> ....<snip>.....
> > I think from memory the max size of a CP/M 2.2 drive is 8192 bytes.
> You mean 8192 *K* bytes? Exactly?
The size of a segment is 128 bytes. 64Kb segments can be described in
CP/M 2, since the size of a Random Access block descriptor in the FCB
is 16 bits (R2 is overflow). 2^22=8Mb (in proper "power of two"
1024x1024 = 1Mb rather than "marketing literature" 1,000x1,000=1Mb).
CP/M 3 allows for an 18 bit Random Access Block descriptor, so it
permits 32Mb drives.
s100guy
...<snip>.....
> Wow, really pretty cool. All pcb layouts are easy available ?
Hi Peter
They could be.
> Btw. much cooler but more difficult will be a sbc with a VGA video
> output (so nobody will be forced to use an additional terminal or PC)...
Yes, vga would be great! Hook it up to an inexpensive LCD display and
small. light keyboard, and make a Z80 laptop! Way cool!
Roger
BruceMcF
... a typo ...
> The size of a segment is 128 bytes. 64Kb segments can be described in
> CP/M 2
64K *of* 128 bytes segments
BruceMcF
MicroVGA is $30 / Euro24, 80x25 text 16-color, also including PAL and
NTSC output and a PS2 keyboard input
Steve Nickolas
Something I'd love to play with, if I had something to plug it into...
(granted, I'm biased toward the 65C02 rather than CP/M's Z80, but eh)
-uso.
BruceMcF
wrote:
> > MicroVGA is $30 / Euro24, 80x25 text 16-color, also including PAL and
> > NTSC output and a PS2 keyboard input
> Something I'd love to play with, if I had something to plug it into...
> (granted, I'm biased toward the 65C02 rather than CP/M's Z80, but eh)
If you have a TV and a spare RS232C port on some piece of gear,
you have something to plug it into on both sides. If I can lash up
the C64 9600baud User Port RS232C serial port for my C64,
I'd use that to play with it, in advance of trying to get a
minimalist
Z80 board up and running.
Peter Dassow
I am not sure what is described with "Bare uVGA-TEXT module" - means
'bare' just the module, or means 'bare' just the pcb without components ?
Regards
Peter
Holger Petersen
>Hello, Holger!
>> I would prefer an _configurable_ Floppy-Controller to be able
>> to read old CP/M-Disks in all possible formats...
>> just dreaming, Holger
>Hahaha! No, you are not dreaming, Holger!
>It has been made several times.
I do not know of such a _hardware_device. The software-side is (sort of :-)
simple; I had a working one myself (more then 100 different formats[*]).
Some of those formats (128 Bytes/Sector in _double_ density) can only be
read by a Western-digital controller. Some others (2048 B/s) only by a
NEC-756 [although I never came across such a CP/M-disk].
There used to be such a beast called "catweasel".
http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/catweasel.htm
From --- http://freshmeat.net/projects/cw2dmk -->
Catweasel Floppy Read/Write Tools
The Catweasel Floppy Read/Write Tools are a set of tools for owners of
Catweasel MK1 ISA and Catweasel MK3/MK4 PCI universal floppy disk
controllers. cw2dmk reads several kinds of floppy disk, some of which
ordinary PC controllers have trouble with, and save them in the DMK disk
image format used by TRS-80 emulators. It can also handle any disk written
using a Western Digital 177x/179x floppy disk controller, a PC-style
NEC765-compatible controller, or a Digital Equipment Corporation RX02
controller. dmk2cw writes any DMK image back to a floppy. jv2dmk and dmk2jv3
convert images between DMK and JV1 and JV3 formats without requiring
Catweasel hardware.
Holger
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> There used to be such a beast called "catweasel".
Never heard about it. I had a look. I found one English page (contrary
to you, I don't read German) at:
http://www.jschoenfeld.com/indexe.htm
Go down the page, then click on "Catweasel MK3". The URL does not
change, but you see another long Web page, devoted to the "Catweasel
MK3". At the bottom, you can read: "The Catweasel MK3 is sold out
since Q2, 2004. Read all about it's successor, the Catweasel MK4".
Clicking on "Catweasel MK4", you arrive at:
http://amiga.think42.com/news/news99_e.htm
Dated 18.07.2004, which is even longer than the previous Web page, and
ending with: "The Catweasel MK4 will be available starting october
2004."
This is all I found about it.
Well, since most American regulars, here, are electronicians, why are
they not making something like this? It seems to have filled a void,
and was reselling for more money than the original price! They could
simply continue on the same hardware design, but making it more
portable, especially under CP/M, since the last version was delivered
with drivers only for "Linux, XP/2000, Amiga OS4, and for Mac OS X".
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
page on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Computers_Catweasel
pbetti
wrote:
Catwasel board is in production as MK4 Plus. Look at here:
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=842&lcsid=4dae821001dc9184b246a69872ad654b
It also seem that the old MK2 has been "re-worked":
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=567
Piergiorgio Betti
All...@localhost.net
It's far easier to use a real CP/M system with various controllers
to read CP/M disks. Since I have a good assortment of S100
and other machines running CP/M with both WD, NEC and
hard sector controllers reading disks is rarely a problem.
All are equipped with native sized drives (8, 5.25 and 3.5 inch)
so that most standard formats are not an issue.
The few times I've encounterd problems it was a standard
controler running a drive that was not native such as a CCS
controller hooked to 3.5" drives. However, it's simple
matter to make up hookups like that.
The only format I can't handle is the intel MDS 2D and that was
a custom bit slice implmentation. I may yet find one for my MDS800.
Another common 8" format that many cannot deal woth is
DEC RX02 with is also a custom format but my collection of
DEC machines makes that a non-issue.
Already built, the answer would be.
Allison
Steve Nickolas
> If you have a TV and a spare RS232C port on some piece of gear,
> you have something to plug it into on both sides. If I can lash up
> the C64 9600baud User Port RS232C serial port for my C64,
> I'd use that to play with it, in advance of trying to get a
> minimalist
> Z80 board up and running.
>
Hm. My Apple //e has a serial port (6551 of some sort, I think) and a
composite monitor. I have a spare VGA monitor though too. Only thing is
the default firmware wants the high order bit on (typical of Apples).
-uso.
Barry Watzman
laptop running an emulation program (I usually use either ProComm Plus
(DOS) or Hyperterm (Windows ... anything from 3.1 to XP).
You can buy suitable old laptops on E-Bay for $10 or so.
They are small, lightweight, they have a keyboard and a screen and a
serial port.
Herbert Johnson
> The only format I can't handle is the intel MDS 2D and that was
> a custom bit slice implmentation. I may yet find one for my MDS800.
Relevant to both Allison's circumstance, and to the discussion of the
Catweasel floppy controller, is this section of my Web page about
floppy disk drive technology, recently added:
http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/drive.html#m2fm
Bottom line: recent software tools for the Catweasel Mark 4 can read
the Intel M2FM double-density format. Links to those tools are on my
Web page. The Catweasel has been a PCI product for several years, and
an ISA product for several years prior, partly to support Amigas. It
reads diskettes at the bit level, software interprets the bit stream.
Software for it is somewhat dispersed among several people, for
various OS's and various disk formats from various native systems.
It's sold in Europe by the developer, and in the USA by various
distributors, and also through eBay.
Herb Johnson
retrotechnology.com
Mr Emmanuel Roche, France
> Another common 8" format that many cannot deal with is
> DEC RX02 with is also a custom format but my collection
> of DEC machines makes that a non-issue.
DEC RX02? Hum... Where have I heard of this one? Ho, yes:
OmniFlop Version 2.2d: New formats: DEC RX02 + Vista/Win7 tweaks
http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm
("OmniFlop" is a ‘universal’ floppy disk reader, writer, and tester
for the IBM PC or compatible which can handle alien floppy disk
formats not normally supported by DOS, Windows and Linux. It was first
released in December 2004.)
> Already built, the answer would be.
Yes, I see. The problem with hardware is that it is less copiable than
software. But, even then, some of them are lost in time. Hence my old
proposal of setting up a "CP/M Trust", which would collect old
hardware, in case someone would need it, in the future. (I simply
don't understand people who collect old micros without their software
and manuals. For me, a computer is hardware + software. One without
the other is useless. Unless as an anchor, for the hardware.) But this
is another subject, that was not a popular idea.
BruceMcF
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ouch. I'd assumed "bare module" means module without cabling, PS,
case, etc. If it was a bare board, that would be far less attractive.
I'll be sure to ask before I buy one.
Steven Hirsch
> The only format I can't handle is the intel MDS 2D and that was
> a custom bit slice implmentation. I may yet find one for my MDS800.
Beta-level support exists to read and write MDS800 M2FM format on a Catweasel.
I used it recently to make archival copies of all my aging master diskettes
on my CW IV+.
> Another common 8" format that many cannot deal woth is
> DEC RX02 with is also a custom format but my collection of
> DEC machines makes that a non-issue.
I believe someone has developed a driver to handle RX02 format on a CW as
well. In fact, the hardware is versatile enough to handle anything involving
flux transitions on a floppy. All you have to do is write the software for it
:-).
It may be possible to make do without one of these gadgets, but mine has
certainly proved handy!
Steven Hirsch
> Relevant to both Allison's circumstance, and to the discussion of the
> Catweasel floppy controller, is this section of my Web page about
> floppy disk drive technology, recently added:
>
> http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/drive.html#m2fm
>
> Bottom line: recent software tools for the Catweasel Mark 4 can read
> the Intel M2FM double-density format. Links to those tools are on my
> Web page. The Catweasel has been a PCI product for several years, and
> an ISA product for several years prior, partly to support Amigas. It
> reads diskettes at the bit level, software interprets the bit stream.
> Software for it is somewhat dispersed among several people, for
> various OS's and various disk formats from various native systems.
> It's sold in Europe by the developer, and in the USA by various
> distributors, and also through eBay.
Herb, FYI: The images under Al's 'isis_II' directory are from me, courtesy of
the Catweasel MKIV+ and my shop Linux system.
Major kudos to Karsten Scheibler, who turned around a working driver in about
three days after I sent him raw flux captures and an excerpt from the Intel
MDS databook describing the format.
All...@localhost.net
<roch...@laposte.net> wrote:
>Hello, Allison!
>
>> Another common 8" format that many cannot deal with is
>> DEC RX02 with is also a custom format but my collection
>> of DEC machines makes that a non-issue.
>
>DEC RX02? Hum... Where have I heard of this one? Ho, yes:
>
>OmniFlop Version 2.2d: New formats: DEC RX02 + Vista/Win7 tweaks
They must have confused RX01 (8" SD easily read) with the
custom mixed format SD and DD (and DD is M2fm) that no current
or previous floppy chip can do. All the controllers (DEC, DSD and
other third party) all use bit slice or 8x305 to do the format. I
have all the known working varients (DEC, DSD, Plessy/Harris,
sigma systems, Crislin.) as examples in working systems.
The DEC and clone RX02s can do both RX01 format and
the oddball 2D format.
>http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm
>
>("OmniFlop" is a �universal� floppy disk reader, writer, and tester
>for the IBM PC or compatible which can handle alien floppy disk
>formats not normally supported by DOS, Windows and Linux. It was first
>released in December 2004.)
Universal as long as it uses either a Catsweasel board (or similar) or
the format is basically compatable with 765/PC controller level.
That covers a lot for ground but the 765/PC controlers cannot read
NS* SD or DD hard sector media, Heath/Zenith hard sector media
or MDS800 DD media and fair number of other unique media like
the Apple GCR media. All of those are both distinct, unique and
the hardware and software that did the work is worthy of preservation
as an example of storage technology. There are others as well.
>> Already built, the answer would be.
>
>Yes, I see. The problem with hardware is that it is less copiable than
>software. But, even then, some of them are lost in time. Hence my old
>proposal of setting up a "CP/M Trust", which would collect old
>hardware, in case someone would need it, in the future. (I simply
>don't understand people who collect old micros without their software
>and manuals. For me, a computer is hardware + software. One without
>the other is useless. Unless as an anchor, for the hardware.) But this
>is another subject, that was not a popular idea.
The hardware is still plentiful and in most cases PCs ( older) can do
most of the common formats with minimal help.
Catsweasel (lacking other means) is needed for the hardsector formats
which were vendor specific and some of the more unusual softsector
formats also vendor specific..
I agree, those that collect ahrdware without documentation or hope of
creating working software usually also lack the knowledge to repair or
otherwise make them functional. Large amounts of gear gets ruined
or worse disposed of as trash this way. I devote a huge amount of
space to saving manuals for that reason. However, I find that most if
not all are scanned now allowing me to dispose (to others) of those I
can get on line easily in favor of less common documents. Most
hardware even those pieces in rough shape are repearable if you
have the documents.
The CP/M trust exists, look around the web for those that can and do
run older gear or can make for themselves functional hardware that can
run existing software. This also exists for a large number of
non-CP/M based gear and software too. Check out PUPs, pdp-11 unix
preservation society, those PDP8 people that not only preserve
systems but the software that made the system useful, PDP10 (36bit)
and VAX 32bit people as well. Anyone seriously vested in those
systems maintains a library of software, sources and working hardware.
Granted I'm CP/M and DEC biased but I know DG and Honeywell people
too. There are also active groups preserving the 1802, 6809, 6502,
6800 as the world was not only 8080/z80. In all cases the trust is
best when it is spread about and multiple people/ groups has it
as then it is more robust should one person/group meet with a disaster
or life cycle end state.
Allison
All...@localhost.net
wrote:
>All...@localhost.net wrote:
>
>> The only format I can't handle is the intel MDS 2D and that was
>> a custom bit slice implmentation. I may yet find one for my MDS800.
>
>Beta-level support exists to read and write MDS800 M2FM format on a Catweasel.
> I used it recently to make archival copies of all my aging master diskettes
>on my CW IV+.
That maybe so but the MDS I ahve qwould be mroe useful if it had the
2D controller. I already said there is nothing on the disks that
wasn't also on SSSD 8".
>> Another common 8" format that many cannot deal woth is
>> DEC RX02 with is also a custom format but my collection of
>> DEC machines makes that a non-issue.
>
>I believe someone has developed a driver to handle RX02 format on a CW as
>well. In fact, the hardware is versatile enough to handle anything involving
>flux transitions on a floppy. All you have to do is write the software for it
>:-).
I'm sure the CW can but DEC hardware is far easier to use than CW
and I already preserve/ use that. It's far easier to boot the PDP-11
(and faster than a PC bootup) and it can handle the high level formats
that are different. For example RX02 was used on PDP-8 (12bit mode)
PDP-11, VAX, and PDP10 and the lost of OSs include RTS, OS8, MUMPS
(PDP8,10 and pdp11), UNIX (PDP11, VAX) and more. For example PDP11
PDP-11 ran unix, RT11, RSX11, RSTS, MUMPS, TSX11. DOS, XXDP/X11,
POS, and I'm certain I forgot a few. Reading the RX02 is small peice
of the battle as all of those systems and software used the disk
differently heck even RT-11 can't read a unix-11 disk without a
utility. The CW doesn't solve this though higher level filesystem
level tools can. Fortunatly most of the DEC RX02 users knew to make
RX01 disks that can be read on any softsector 8" system for
portability sake. When you consider those OSs also supported other
removable media so the overlying format is usually the important
issue.
>It may be possible to make do without one of these gadgets, but mine has
>certainly proved handy!
Maybe, depends on it's use. If I didn't have the hardware I have then
the media like RX02 would largely be moot.
Then again the stack of RL02s (14" removable 10MB media) I have are
way beyond the CW, but the RL02 drive and PDP11 that supports it can.
Allison
glen herrmannsfeldt
> On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:49:45 -0500, Steven Hirsch <snhi...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>I believe someone has developed a driver to handle RX02 format on
>> a CW as well. In fact, the hardware is versatile enough to
>> handle anything involving flux transitions on a floppy.
>> All you have to do is write the software for it
> I'm sure the CW can but DEC hardware is far easier to use than CW
> and I already preserve/ use that. It's far easier to boot the PDP-11
> (and faster than a PC bootup) and it can handle the high level formats
> that are different. For example RX02 was used on PDP-8 (12bit mode)
> PDP-11, VAX, and PDP10 and the lost of OSs include RTS, OS8, MUMPS
Last time I used an 8 inch floppy on a VAX, it would only read
RX-01 format. We had to copy all the files over on RT-11, and then
read them on the VAX.
(snip)
> Maybe, depends on it's use. If I didn't have the hardware I have then
> the media like RX02 would largely be moot.
> Then again the stack of RL02s (14" removable 10MB media) I have are
> way beyond the CW, but the RL02 drive and PDP11 that supports it can.
Time for a faster version then? Presumably the same idea would
work but the bits come off faster.
-- glen
pbetti
wrote:
Wow! It can read and write single density (FM) disk!
It seems to good to be true. I'll give it a try this evening...
Piergiorgio Betti
Steven Hirsch
>> OmniFlop Version 2.2d: New formats: DEC RX02 + Vista/Win7 tweaks
>>
>> http://www.shlock.co.uk/Utils/OmniFlop/OmniFlop.htm
>>
>> ("OmniFlop" is a �universal� floppy disk reader, writer, and tester
>> for the IBM PC or compatible which can handle alien floppy disk
>> formats not normally supported by DOS, Windows and Linux. It was first
>> released in December 2004.)
> Wow! It can read and write single density (FM) disk!
> It seems to good to be true. I'll give it a try this evening...
Be aware that its ability to handle FM SD formats is predicated on the ability
of the on-board floppy controller chip to handle same. Not all can.
All...@localhost.net
<g...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
>All...@localhost.net wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:49:45 -0500, Steven Hirsch <snhi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>(snip, someone wrote)
>
>>>I believe someone has developed a driver to handle RX02 format on
>>> a CW as well. In fact, the hardware is versatile enough to
>>> handle anything involving flux transitions on a floppy.
>>> All you have to do is write the software for it
>
>> I'm sure the CW can but DEC hardware is far easier to use than CW
>> and I already preserve/ use that. It's far easier to boot the PDP-11
>> (and faster than a PC bootup) and it can handle the high level formats
>> that are different. For example RX02 was used on PDP-8 (12bit mode)
>> PDP-11, VAX, and PDP10 and the lost of OSs include RTS, OS8, MUMPS
>
>Last time I used an 8 inch floppy on a VAX, it would only read
>RX-01 format. We had to copy all the files over on RT-11, and then
>read them on the VAX.
Sounds like system microcode boot media. I had a uVAX I used with
RX02 for small file transfer (between PDP11 and DECword). It was used
as regular peripheral along with RX50.
>
>(snip)
>> Maybe, depends on it's use. If I didn't have the hardware I have then
>> the media like RX02 would largely be moot.
>
>> Then again the stack of RL02s (14" removable 10MB media) I have are
>> way beyond the CW, but the RL02 drive and PDP11 that supports it can.
>
>Time for a faster version then? Presumably the same idea would
>work but the bits come off faster.
Yes, but you still need the RL02 Drive.
Allison
>-- glen
glen herrmannsfeldt
(snip, I wrote)
>>Last time I used an 8 inch floppy on a VAX, it would only read
>>RX-01 format. We had to copy all the files over on RT-11, and then
>>read them on the VAX.
> Sounds like system microcode boot media. I had a uVAX I used with
> RX02 for small file transfer (between PDP11 and DECword). It was used
> as regular peripheral along with RX50.
That was an 11/750, and may have been the microcode boot drive.
>>(snip)
>>> Maybe, depends on it's use. If I didn't have the hardware I have then
>>> the media like RX02 would largely be moot.
>>> Then again the stack of RL02s (14" removable 10MB media) I have are
>>> way beyond the CW, but the RL02 drive and PDP11 that supports it can.
>>Time for a faster version then? Presumably the same idea would
>>work but the bits come off faster.
> Yes, but you still need the RL02 Drive.
Darn, I only have an RL01 drive. I suppose that won't work.
-- glen
Herbert Johnson
>
>> http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/drive.html#m2fm
>
> Herb, FYI: The images under Al's 'isis_II' directory are from me, courtesy of
> the Catweasel MKIV+ and my shop Linux system.
Thanks for the update, I had not given the origin of those files. My
page will be fixed soon.
Herb Johnson
retrotechnology.com
Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
http://www.retrotechnology.com/ retro-technology home pages
-- S-100, CP/M history by "Dr. S-100"
-- other old tech in iron, glass, rock
domain mirror: retrotechnology.net
Roger Ivie
>> RX02 for small file transfer (between PDP11 and DECword). It was used
>> as regular peripheral along with RX50.
>
> That was an 11/750, and may have been the microcode boot drive.
AFAIK, the /750 (like the /730) loaded microcode from TU58.
--
roger ivie
ri...@ridgenet.net
Greegor
I'm interested in the SBC type of system
running (now free) CP/M 2.2+ where I
don't have to write my own BDOS etc.
But how much would such a board cost?
I see the board you imitated had what looks like
USB ports, is that right?
Know if they are USB 1, 2.0 or 3.0?
I agree that VGA and PS/2 for a terminal would
be good, but aren't PC keyboards evolving toward
USB keyboards?
I'd be tempted to see the SBC as a USB peripheral
to my PC, for monitoring a security system or
controlling lights, etc. Would it be irrational
to use a PC as a console device to run CP/M?
I saw how one iteration had some fancy graphics
output. While it would be FUN, it also seems
a bit top heavy for a Z-80 processor.
I asked last year in the comp.os.cpm group if
there is a realistic way to do a modern
hyper accelerated version of Z-80
running 8 bit code, and 8 bit CP/M 2.2
yet running it super fast.
How fast could a hyper Z-80 operate?
What would a hyper Z-80 NOT be able to do?
Would a FPGA version go FASTER than a
later fast incarnation of the Z-80?
Would the speed of an FPGA version be worth the trouble/cost?
The 50 MHz eZ80 is a 16 bit processor but 8 bit Z80 code
compatible, can run CP/M 2.2 or 3....
Howard M. Harte used the eZ80 back around 2006.
Estimated price:
$200 - Base system (supply your own eZ80 Mini or Full-size Ethernet
Module)
$250 - Complete end-User (with eZ80 Mini Ethernet Module)
$350 - Development Kit (Includes USB download cables for eZ80 and
8051)
Availablilty: (2006?)
Demonstrated at VCF 9.0 on November 4th/5th 2006.
10 Prototype boards fabbed.
4 of these have been assembled. (by hand)
2 of these have been sold to developers who want to assemble
themselves. (not for the novice!)
4 remain to be assembled, and will be offered to Developers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilog_Z80
For the original NMOS design, the specified upper clock frequency
limit increased successively from the introductory 2.5 MHz, via the
well known 4 MHz (Z80A), up to 6 (Z80B) and 8 MHz (Z80H).[11][12] A
CMOS version was also developed with specified frequency limits[13]
ranging from 4 MHz up to 20 MHz for the version sold today. The CMOS
version also allowed a low-power sleep with internal state retained
(having no lower frequency limit).[14] The fully compatible
derivatives HD64180/Z180[15][16] and eZ80 are currently specified for
up to 33 and 50 MHz respectively.
s100guy
Glad to hear of your interest in a sbc Z-80. I can't tell you how
much a board would cost. I only made one, and it ran about $175 US
(that is the bottom line, including shipping, etc.) PCBCore did the
fab. I'm pretty sure that an order of 4 or 5, or more, would get the
unit price down into a reasonable range, but I don't know for sure. I
wouldn't mind having a couple more for myself. It is fairly large
(maybe 8" x 10").
The ports on the board are classic serial (DB-9), but I'm running it
from a USB only PC system running Slackware and Ubuntu Linux. USB to
classic serial adapters are available for very little money. That's
what I use.
As far as seeking "hyper accelerated" Z-80s, I can't be of much help.
There are (of course) a number of ways to get into that domain,
including the eZ80, the Z180, maybe even FPGAs (?). I'll leave that
discussion to those more qualified than I.
In doing this project, I sought to avoid exotic parts and programmable
devices. I chose simplicity over extreme performance. BUT, I can
tell you that this board is *very* responsive. The RAMdisk makes it
very fast, and the IDE device is also quite fast. IMO, the speed of
classic Z-80 systems is mostly determined by the speed of floppies, or
other storage devices. This system side-steps those issues. For
example, some of the old CP/M editors display start-up messages as
they open files and load up. They fly by so quickly on this system,
that I can't even read them. The 1-MB RAMdisk completely formats in
seconds.
Roger
Greegor
So what kinds of hardware interfacing do you
do with the 10 MHz Z-80 that you could
not run on a Z-80 simulator?
Not fast enough to function as an MP/3 player is it?
Datalogger? Robots? Stepper motor control?
Humidity sensors?
How about a customizable Caller ID unit?
Got any leads on Caller ID chips/interfaces
that would be economical to hang off this
Z-80 board? The names coming in on Caller
ID are getting to be meaningless, and I'd like
to have it look up the number from a list on
MY end and show the name I attach to
the phone number.
Or as somebody else suggested blacklists
and whitelists for numbers....
Is that a good kind of project for a CP/M
Z-80 machine like what you've got?
Steve Nickolas
> So what kinds of hardware interfacing do you
> do with the 10 MHz Z-80 that you could
> not run on a Z-80 simulator?
>
> Not fast enough to function as an MP/3 player is it?
> Datalogger? Robots? Stepper motor control?
> Humidity sensors?
I heard a rumor that Z80s were used in Chinese offbrand mp3 players, but
that doesn't make sense to me.
-uso.
Matthew Reed
> I heard a rumor that Z80s were used in Chinese offbrand mp3 players, but
> that doesn't make sense to me.
Strange, but true. The chip used is the Actions Semiconductor ATJ2085. As
it says in the data sheet: "ATJ2085 integrates 8-bit MCU with on-chip ICE
support. Instruction set is compatible with Z80."
--
Matthew Reed
http://www.trs-80.org
http://www.trs-80emulators.com
Jeff Jonas
>Got any leads on Caller ID chips/interfaces
>that would be economical to hang off this Z-80 board?
I've heard that the nicer stand alone chips are hard to get,
so consider using an external modem with Caller ID?
That'll handle all the annoying things like phone line isolation
via a FCC registered DAA (Direct Access Arrangement).
The Motorola MC145447
calling line identification(CLID) receiver with ring detector
is described in this application note:
http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/app_note/AN1733.pdf
> The names coming in on Caller ID are getting to be meaningless,
> and I'd like to have it look up the number
> from a list on MY end and show the name I attach to the phone number.
Long ago I pondered using a Xerox 820-II bigboard for that
but I didn't have the table space,
and would prefer a silent system (no floppy disks or hard drives).
I wanted it to integrate a note system like those on a PDA
so it would also bring up my notes such as last conversation,
business in progress, etc.
>Or as somebody else suggested blacklists
>and whitelists for numbers....
that too, with a simple red light/green light to show status?
Greegor
> Steve Nickolas wrote:
> > I heard a rumor that Z80s were used in Chinese offbrand mp3 players, but
> > that doesn't make sense to me.
>
> Strange, but true. The chip used is the Actions Semiconductor ATJ2085. As
> it says in the data sheet: "ATJ2085 integrates 8-bit MCU with on-chip ICE
> support. Instruction set is compatible with Z80."
On Feb 23, 7:12 am, Matthew Reed <m...@trs-80.org> wrote:
> Steve Nickolas wrote:
> > I heard a rumor that Z80s were used in Chinese offbrand mp3 players, but
> > that doesn't make sense to me.
> Strange, but true. The chip used is the Actions Semiconductor ATJ2085. As
> it says in the data sheet: "ATJ2085 integrates 8-bit MCU with on-chip ICE
> support. Instruction set is compatible with Z80."
http://www.s1mp3.org/files/datasheets/ATJ2085/ATJ2085_datasheet_v1.5.pdf
24 MHz TYPICAL, up to 60 MHz clock rate? LOL
http://www.actions-semi.com/en/product.aspx?id=10
ATJ2085=Z80mcu+dsp+usb+audio decode plus:
ALR AK1022 (LQ version of ATJ 2093)
AK1025 Pinout identical to ATJ2091. Possibly lower-quality (slower,
more manufacturing defects) version of 2091??
ATJ2097(2098)
ATJ 2089 lots of I/O pins! also supports external SDRAM and camera
ATJ2097 and ATJ2099 can do Movies and SD Flash.
It looks like the lower model numbers can do photos
and the higher models can do movies.
It looks like they're all set to use these chips for:
Flash Drives (notice the ongoing problem of counterfeits
that LIE about how much memory they have),
JPEG electronic photo picture frames,
MP3 Players,
Movie players,
CAMERAS,
Talking kids toys,
What else?
Comparison chart of the various chips as compared to each other.
Especially the far right NOTES column.
http://wiki.s1mp3.org/Actions_SoC_Family
http://www.s1mp3.org/files/datasheets/
http://www.s1mp3.org/files/datasheets/ATJ2097/ATJ2097X%20Data%20SheetV1.7.pdf
ATJ2097X Features
Digital voice recording at ultra low 8Kbps with Actions speech
algorithm
24 bits DSP core with on-chip debug support unit (DSU)
8 bits MCU which instruction set is compatible with Z80
Support up to 3(pcs)* 64M ~4G bytes NAND type/SLC/MLC flash
Support 24MHz OSC with on-chip PLL for DSP and 32.768KHz OSC for
RTC
Support external I2S DAC Interface
2-channel DMA , 1-channel CTC (Counter/Timer Controller) and
interrupt controller for MCU
Energy saving power management (PMU), supporting 1xAA, 1xAAA, 2xAA,
2xAAA and Li-Lon
GPIO(max8,duplex), GPO (3)
USB 2.0 high speed, act as mass storage device
Build in Stereo Sigma-Delta DAC and its modulator digital out
ATJ2097X PRODUCT DATASHEET
Copyright© Actions Semiconductor Co., Ltd 2006. All rights reserved.
Ver 1.7 Page 5/40 2006-6-16
Support external 80 series LCM driver interface(STN / Color STN)
FM tuner mixer and controller
Support stereo Sigma-Delta ADC for microphone/FM Input/line Input,
sample rate at
8/12/16/22/24/32/48KHz
Support digital audio encoding with sample rate of 8-48KHz
Support multi media card interface with speed up to R/W 1Mbytes/s
Support SD card interface with speed up to R/W 1Mbytes/s(in 4 bits
mode)
Build-in Li-lion charging management
SPI / UART / IR / SPDIF interface
DSP+PM/DM speed up to 72MIPS
Headphone driver output 2x11Mw @16ohm
Package at LQFP-100(14x14mm)
"scanners, printers, mass storage devices, and digital cameras.
It is designed to be a cost-effective USB total solution"
Greegor
And two different rings...
James Moxham (Dr_Acula)
as it can't drive a VGA display. The propeller can do a VGA display,
but it is only running a 3.5Mhz emulation. Lots of interesting
possibilities.
It could be the answer to a very fast CP/M computer.
Mind you 10Mhz for Roger's board is going to be more than fast enough
for a lot of things. I'm starting to think of hybrids - combine the
best features of each...
MikeS
>
> - Show quoted text -
Back in '91 I put together a CID PC that would log calls, display
history and details on several composite monitors and voice-announce
calls throughout the office using an RS-232 text-to-speech board. It
used a Rochelle ANI-232, basically a CID modem based on an MT8841 CID
IC in a DB-25F shell and apparently still available (albeit for
$99.00):
http://www.evermoresystems.com/RochelleCTI/
Alas, after almost 20 years it finally died a few months ago and I
replaced it with an external modem with Caller ID capability; not as
small and neat but cheaper (free in my case, but shouldn't be hard to
find a cheap one).
Greegor
Those cheap little key fob sized MP/3 players
run at 24 MHz FANLESS for 15 hours of operation
on a charge with the tiny LCD display!
Put in a slightly bigger case, with a heat sink
epoxied (?) onto the chip, it might (?) do 60 MHz
CP/M 2.2 fanless and it has Flash memory and USB already.
Do you think the cheap printed circuit board
traces could handle 60 MHz clock rate?
How hard would it be to put VGA
onto one of these?
Or couldn't the USB port be used to
make any PC with a USB port work
as a terminal?
CP/M at 60 MHz would be able to do some
things that call for very fine timing wouldn't it?
Couldn't these be used to make some
very economical and fast CP/M computers?
The upper end "Z80" compatible CPU's
also support MPEG movies so maybe
these could be a high end DVD player
with benefits?
Ya think any DVD players out there are
already based on these CPU's?
If so, one of those might be a slick
start toward a low cost but FAST
Fanless CP/M computer.
BruceMcF
> On Feb 24, 6:45 am, "James Moxham (Dr_Acula)"
> How hard would it be to put VGA
> onto one of these?
Well, if it has external SD, that is via the SPI mode, you already
have SPI, and there is an Ozzie company that sells a $30 SPI VGA
display controller. Multiple fonts, multiple font sizes, line, box and
circle drawing. Each additional SPI device costs an additional active
low select line and of course whatever connector you use.