S100 Card Wanted.
Robin Birch
type, I presume that the most likely is an ST509 or similar. I have
just been given an old S100 system (Sirton - based on a Godbout Z80
card) which has two 8 inch drives and I'd like to add a small HD to it.
Also some 64k Memory cards that support paging would be useful as I
could try and get something other than 2.2 up on it.
I am based in the UK.
Regards
Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch ro...@falstaf.demon.co.uk
M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
Bill Haygood
> Has anyone got an S100 card that will drive a hard disc of any standard
> type, I presume that the most likely is an ST509 or similar.
I do not have an S100 card, but this reminds me of
the time I purchased a hard disk interface from
Cromemco for my Cromemco 68K/Z80 system. I had a
Seagate ST509 drive and Cromemco advertised their
S100 hard disk card would work with "ST509 compatible
drives". Since I had an actual ST509, I bought the
Cromemco card, but it would not work with my HD
drive. When I asked Cromemco about it, they told me
that the card worked only with "ST509 *compatible*
drives, NOT with actual ST509 drives" !
Duh !
To email me, remove the 'hex'.
Herbert R Johnson
Robin Birch <ro...@falstaf.demon.co.uk> wrote:
*>Has anyone got an S100 card that will drive a hard disc of any standard
*>type, I presume that the most likely is an ST509 or similar. I have
*>just been given an old S100 system (Sirton - based on a Godbout Z80
*>card) which has two 8 inch drives and I'd like to add a small HD to it.
*>Also some 64k Memory cards that support paging would be useful as I
*>could try and get something other than 2.2 up on it.
*>
*>I am based in the UK.
*>
*>Regards
*>
*>Robin
*>____________________________________________________________________
*>Robin Birch ro...@falstaf.demon.co.uk
*>M1ASU/2E0ARJ Old computers and radios always welcome
I'm in the USA. I have a number of S-100 manuals listed on my Web page.
I provide copies as a service to S-100 card owners, you might want
to look over my Web page and see if I have manuals for your cards.
I have a number of Godbout manuals: my manuals are listed by manufacturer.
Prices are by the page plus shipping. Terms for non-US customers are
referenced on my Web page, I have shipped manuals around the world.
As for hard disk controllers: the older S-100 HD controllers were not
terribly reliable. Each of them had a unique BIOS for CP/M and they
generally require some effort and knowledge to integrate into an
S-100 system, and may not be compatible with every system. S-100 was
not as "plug and play" as even early IBM-PC's were.
Herb Johnson
"Dr." S-100
Herbert R. Johnson http://pluto.njcc.com/~hjohnson
hjoh...@pluto.njcc.com voice 609-771-1503, New Jersey USA
amateur astronomer and astro-tour guide
S-100 computer restoration, parts, manuals as "Dr. S-100"
rebuilder/reseller of compact Macs for your computing pleasure
--
Herbert R. Johnson http://pluto.njcc.com/~hjohnson
hjoh...@pluto.njcc.com voice 609-771-1503, New Jersey USA
amateur astronomer and astro-tour guide
classic S-100 computers restoration & parts as "Dr. S-100"
rebuilder/reseller of classic Macs for your computing pleasure
and senior engineer at Astro Imaging Systems
Richard Erlacher
> Robin Birch <ro...@falstaf.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Has anyone got an S100 card that will drive a hard disc of any standard
> > type, I presume that the most likely is an ST509 or similar.
>
> I do not have an S100 card, but this reminds me of
> the time I purchased a hard disk interface from
> Cromemco for my Cromemco 68K/Z80 system. I had a
> Seagate ST509 drive and Cromemco advertised their
> S100 hard disk card would work with "ST509 compatible
> drives". Since I had an actual ST509, I bought the
> Cromemco card, but it would not work with my HD
> drive. When I asked Cromemco about it, they told me
> that the card worked only with "ST509 *compatible*
> drives, NOT with actual ST509 drives" !
>
> Duh !
>
> To email me, remove the 'hex'.
==================================================
I think what's meant here is "ST-506" which was the designation for the first
of a line of Shugart Technology (later renamed Seagate Technology) 5-1/4"
microwinchester drives. The interface was named after them, though it was
later called ST-412 for some odd reason which never became clear to me.
There were several ways of interfacing these babies to the S-100, probably the
simplest of which was by means of the Microcomputer Systems Corp (later called
XEBEC) model 9391 S-100-bus controller. Another solution was the XCOMP ST-S
controller which was a two-card set. Another popular solution was a SASI
interface implemented by means of an 8255 and talking to a XEBEC Model 1410
bridge controller to the ST-506. Over time there were numerous other bridge
controllers of this type and they gradually took over the market, as a
dedicated controller design was not as efficient for the manufacturer as a
bridge controller that only required a simple interface. Many of these were
SCSI adapters, e.g. the ADAPTEC 4010(MFM) and later 4070 (RLL).
Wester Digital made a line of SA-1000/ST-506-compatible controllers in their WD
1000 and 1001 series of controllers, which was a precursor of their drive-sized
1000-05 and 1002-05 series. It was this last series of controllers for which I
produced an adapter which sat on whatever CPU card you cared to use with it, in
place of the processor IC, and carried the processor IC on it. The result was
a cable interface to the 1000-05 and 1002-05.
If anyone would like to build an adapter to one of these cards, assuming they
have one already, as they're not made any longer, I'll happily provide
schematics and a few crude-but-effective pieces of code for testing,
formatting, and CP/M BIOS hacking.
Dick
kees.s...@iae.nl
On 1999-05-22 ed...@hotmail.com said:
<snip>
ed>I think what's meant here is "ST-506" which was the designation for
ed>the first of a line of Shugart Technology (later renamed Seagate
ed>Technology) 5-1/4" microwinchester drives. The interface was named
ed>after them, though it was later called ST-412 for some odd reason
ed>which never became clear to me.
<snip>
This is because the ST506 does not buffer the step pulses from the controller
and the ST412 (10 MB, the second 5.25i Shugart hard disk) does. You have to
provide step pulses to the 506 not too fast, so it has time to move the heads,
while you can provide step pulses to the ST412 as fast as you can and the 412
will buffer them and move the heads on its own. If you look at the logic board
of a 506 you will only see regular ttl chips etc, but on the logic board of the
412 you will discover a microprocessor. This is why many ST506 compatible hard
disk controllers really are only ST412 compatible!
Kees.
--
Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - kees.s...@iae.nl
http://www.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/
I'm Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - Visit VAXarchive!
http://www.vaxarchive.org/ (primary)
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Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered
John R Pierce
>and the ST412 (10 MB, the second 5.25i Shugart hard disk) does. You have to
Um, beg to differ, but the 10MB drive used by the original IBM PC/XT
and even the PC 'Expansion Chassis' was the ST-512. I have one on the
shelf in my office sitting next to a dead 4GB 2.5" drive as a reminder
where we came from.... And, it was a Seagate, not a Shugart.
The ST4xxx series were 5.25" FH drives with voice coils instead of
steppers. Classic examples were the ST4032 30MB drive used on the IBM
PC/AT and the ST4096 80MB drive that I once owned on *my* PC/AT clone
-jrp
Richard Erlacher
My first ST506 drive, which was the first of its kind (1980), was labelled
SHUGART TECHNOLOGY, but the second one was labelled SEAGATE TECHNOLOGY, as Al
Shugart has sold SHUGART Technology to someone else, along with its product
line and associated names, etc. I don't remember who it was . . . perhaps
Xerox or Diablo . . . It happens that Qume was also sold to one of the industry
giants at that time and it was a LONG time ago. . .
It's true, the ST506's had no step-buffering capability, and their specified
step rate was 3ms per step, similar to the 8" floppies of the time. Later
drives, those using microprocessors to run things were able to accumulate step
pulses and slew the step rate up and down as was needed to arrive at the target
track without overshooting.
Just a few days ago, I fired up a couple of these old drives on a little CP/M
machine (Ampro Little Board) by means of a Western Digital WD1000 board for
which I used and adapter sitting on the Z80 site. I have several comparable
old drives, among which is a Seagate ST506, a Shugart Associates' model 604,
and a Tandon TM602, all of which have about the same configuration.
The second-generation drives were pretty similar, with the exception that they
had twice as many cylinders. At about the same time that these
"second-genration" drives became available, companies like IMI, RMS, and the
like, who made microprocessor control the main feature of their drives, put
their 10MB offering on the table with the ability to ramp their seeks. This
improved performance quite a bit and soon was the standard.
Dick
Richard Erlacher
> >This is because the ST506 does not buffer the step pulses from the controller
> >and the ST412 (10 MB, the second 5.25i Shugart hard disk) does. You have to
>
> Um, beg to differ, but the 10MB drive used by the original IBM PC/XT
> and even the PC 'Expansion Chassis' was the ST-512. I have one on the
> shelf in my office sitting next to a dead 4GB 2.5" drive as a reminder
> where we came from.... And, it was a Seagate, not a Shugart.
>
> The ST4xxx series were 5.25" FH drives with voice coils instead of
> steppers. Classic examples were the ST4032 30MB drive used on the IBM
> PC/AT and the ST4096 80MB drive that I once owned on *my* PC/AT clone
>
> -jrp
>
Golly . . . that's not the way I remember things . . . FIrst of all, the ST
4000-somethings were a totally different product line about ten years later
than the ST400-somethings. I never saw a model 512 drive though I don't doubt
there could have been such a thing. There was a 412, which I also never got
around to seeing, but which apparently was ubiquitous enough that people began
to refer to the ST-506 interface as the ST-412 interface. I do believe the
only difference between the "standards" was that the timing limitation on step
rate was removed from the later interface spec.
I have scrapped a couple of the ST4000-series drives, including a few ST4096's
and a single ST4144. These look alike but the 4144 apparently is selected for
its RLL compatibility. They provide enough high quality cast aluminum scrap to
warrant buying them for <$5. I never had a functional one last more than three
months, though, even though they were fairly well-regarded.
John R Pierce
>My first ST506 drive, which was the first of its kind (1980), was labelled
>SHUGART TECHNOLOGY, but the second one was labelled SEAGATE TECHNOLOGY, as Al
>Shugart has sold SHUGART Technology to someone else, along with its product
>line and associated names, etc. I don't remember who it was . . . perhaps
>Xerox or Diablo . . . It happens that Qume was also sold to one of the industry
>giants at that time and it was a LONG time ago. . .
The genesis was something like this (from my rusty RAM)...
Al start Shugart Associates, makes the SA900, SA800, etc 8"
floppy drives.
SA thrives, Al loses control to the 'management'.
SA builds the dreaded 14MB 12"(?) hard disk. Al wants to
build 5.25" hard drives. Management doesn't. Al
leaves.
Al starts Shugart Technology, starts building ST506 hard
drives.
SA sues ST over the name. Al changes name to Seagate
Technology, gets a ton of publicity for free.
SA shortly thereafter augers in. ST lives on.
>
>It's true, the ST506's had no step-buffering capability, and their specified
>step rate was 3ms per step, similar to the 8" floppies of the time. Later
>drives, those using microprocessors to run things were able to accumulate step
>pulses and slew the step rate up and down as was needed to arrive at the target
>track without overshooting.
ah, geez, you are right. (chews on old shoe). Said ST412 is at work
where I have no usenet access, I'm home.
Phew.
ST506: 153 cylinders. 4 heads. 17 sectors. 3600 rpm. 85mS avg.
seek. 5MB. ouch!
ST412: 306 cylinders. 4 heads. 17 sectors. 3600 rpm. 85mS avg.
seek. 10MB. 25-50watts.
also is a ST406 listed (never saw one of those!), has 306 cyls and 2
heads.
Compare with, oh, lets see. How about the ST317242A...
ST317242A: 17GB, 9mS access. 5-8 watts. 188Mbit/sec peak.
Don Maslin
:>This is because the ST506 does not buffer the step pulses from the controller
:>and the ST412 (10 MB, the second 5.25i Shugart hard disk) does. You have to
: Um, beg to differ, but the 10MB drive used by the original IBM PC/XT
: and even the PC 'Expansion Chassis' was the ST-512. I have one on the
: shelf in my office sitting next to a dead 4GB 2.5" drive as a reminder
: where we came from.... And, it was a Seagate, not a Shugart.
Seagate does not acknowledge having built an ST-512 in their All-MFM
listing. There were, however, both an ST-406 and an ST-412 model,
along with an ST-419. Each of these used a stepper motor for head
positioning. I suspect that the 10mb drive that you had in your IBM
PC/XT was an ST-412 - perhaps rebadged to say IBM.
: The ST4xxx series were 5.25" FH drives with voice coils instead of
: steppers. Classic examples were the ST4032 30MB drive used on the IBM
: PC/AT and the ST4096 80MB drive that I once owned on *my* PC/AT clone
True, but the discussion was on ST4xx drives, not ST4xxx drives, I
thought.
- don
: -jrp
Don Maslin
: On Wed, 26 May 1999 04:27:01 GMT, anti...@here.not (John R Pierce) wrote:
:> >This is because the ST506 does not buffer the step pulses from the controller
:> >and the ST412 (10 MB, the second 5.25i Shugart hard disk) does. You have to
:>
:> Um, beg to differ, but the 10MB drive used by the original IBM PC/XT
:> and even the PC 'Expansion Chassis' was the ST-512. I have one on the
:> shelf in my office sitting next to a dead 4GB 2.5" drive as a reminder
:> where we came from.... And, it was a Seagate, not a Shugart.
:>
:> The ST4xxx series were 5.25" FH drives with voice coils instead of
:> steppers. Classic examples were the ST4032 30MB drive used on the IBM
:> PC/AT and the ST4096 80MB drive that I once owned on *my* PC/AT clone
:>
:> -jrp
:>
: My first ST506 drive, which was the first of its kind (1980), was labelled
: SHUGART TECHNOLOGY, but the second one was labelled SEAGATE TECHNOLOGY, as Al
: Shugart has sold SHUGART Technology to someone else, along with its product
: line and associated names, etc. I don't remember who it was . . . perhaps
: Xerox or Diablo . . . It happens that Qume was also sold to one of the industry
: giants at that time and it was a LONG time ago. . .
Pretty close to my recollection. But what he sold was Shugart
Associates and I believe that it WAS to Xerox. They took some umbrage
when he started up Shugart Technology and forced him to change the
name.
- don
: It's true, the ST506's had no step-buffering capability, and their specified
: step rate was 3ms per step, similar to the 8" floppies of the time. Later
: drives, those using microprocessors to run things were able to accumulate step
: pulses and slew the step rate up and down as was needed to arrive at the target
: track without overshooting.
: Just a few days ago, I fired up a couple of these old drives on a little CP/M