OT - RCA 1802 Assembler/Disassembler
944Technologist
I saw the 1802 discussed in the past few days. Does anyone know of a
site on the Web with a good 1802 Assembler & Disassembler. Ones that
will work together well.
Thanks for any help,
944Technologist
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
nos...@nouce.bellatlantic.net
<944tech...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Off Topic.
>I saw the 1802 discussed in the past few days. Does anyone know of a
>site on the Web with a good 1802 Assembler & Disassembler. Ones that
>will work together well.
Don't know of a disassembler but there are assemblers for DOS/win
boxen. PS18A12.zip is a file I have.
Now a disassembler for that machine is one I'd like. I still play
with them.
Allison
Stewart and Leta Marshall
Google. Allison, do you have any assembly language code samples for
playing with that assembler, just to give us newbies a feel for it? I
have a neat single board 1802 machine (thanks, Lee!) with an eprom
socket; and would like to use it for various types of machine tool
control, monitoring, etc. with the parallel and serial ports. Any code
samples along those lines would be welcome! If this is a bit too far
off-topic, you can e-mail me direct.
Cheers, Stewart
P.S. Was there ever a Pascal for the 1802, either for the 1802 itself or
a DOS or CP/M cross compiler?
nos...@nouce.bellatlantic.net
<mars...@rockisland.com> wrote:
>Just found the 1802 assembler Allison mentioned, with a search in
>Google. Allison, do you have any assembly language code samples for
>playing with that assembler, just to give us newbies a feel for it? I
The package had test files to assure the asm gave the right code.
I don't ahve any of my 1802 stuff on PC yet (all on CPM z80).
>
>P.S. Was there ever a Pascal for the 1802, either for the 1802 itself or
>a DOS or CP/M cross compiler?
Not that I know of though where was a integer (tiny) basic and a basic
compiler.
Steve
I'd REALLY like to know where that is if anyone knows!!!
-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rst...@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
-Electronics Site!! 1000 Files/50 Dirs!! http://www.armory.com/~rstevew
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Neil McNeight
: Now a disassembler for that machine is one I'd like. I still play
: with them.
I just found one at http://www.ludd.luth.se/~rotax/motronic/dis1802.exe
Apparently the 1802 was used in an ECU made by Bosch for Volvo and BMW
in the 1980's. http://www.ludd.luth.se/~rotax/motronic/main.html talks a
little bit more about it.
-Neil
---------------------------------------------------+-------------------
"There is more to life than increasing its speed." | Neil McNeight
-Mahatma Gandhi | mcne...@umich.edu
---------------------------------------------------+-------------------
Neil McNeight
: nos...@nouce.bellatlantic.net wrote:
:> Not that I know of though where was a integer (tiny) basic and a basic
:> compiler.
: --------------------------
: I'd REALLY like to know where that is if anyone knows!!!
I'm not sure if it's redistributable or not, but I've got a copy of a 1802
version of Tiny BASIC. I haven't heard of a BASIC compiler or PASCAL
compiler for the 1802, though.
Lee Hart
> Was there ever a Pascal for the 1802, either for the 1802 itself or
> a DOS or CP/M cross compiler?
Yes, all of the above. I have at least 4 different 1802 assemblers; RCA,
Hughes, Avocet (CP/M and DOS cross-assemblers), and Cross-16 (a
"universal" assembler with 1802 configuration).
As far as languages, RCA had Pascal, PLM, and 4 different BASICs for the
1802. There was also FORTH (which included its own assembler), and Tom
Pittman's Tiny BASIC (used in the Netronics ELF2 and Quest SuperELF).
There were many specialized languages as well; IPS, 8TH (FORTH variants,
CHIP8 (for the VIP) etc.
I have the source for Tiny BASIC and RCA's full BASIC interpreter and
compiler, if anyone is interested. Be warned that they are on RCA format
disks!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
John Wilson
Lee Hart <leea...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>As far as languages, RCA had Pascal, PLM, and 4 different BASICs for the
>1802. There was also FORTH (which included its own assembler), and Tom
>Pittman's Tiny BASIC (used in the Netronics ELF2 and Quest SuperELF).
>There were many specialized languages as well; IPS, 8TH (FORTH variants,
>CHIP8 (for the VIP) etc.
Somewhere I have a cassette for what IIRC was called "Super BASIC", for the
Super Elf, which I bought from Quest around 1982 for $45 or so. Any idea
if it's a derivative of one of RCA's BASICs, or something else entirely?
I wonder who would own the rights now, Quest disappeared rather abruptly.
John Wilson
D Bit
bill_h
>
> Steve wrote:
> > Was there ever a Pascal for the 1802, either for the 1802 itself or
> > a DOS or CP/M cross compiler?
>
> Hughes, Avocet (CP/M and DOS cross-assemblers), and Cross-16 (a
> "universal" assembler with 1802 configuration).
>
> 1802. There was also FORTH (which included its own assembler), and Tom
> Pittman's Tiny BASIC (used in the Netronics ELF2 and Quest SuperELF).
> There were many specialized languages as well; IPS, 8TH (FORTH variants,
> CHIP8 (for the VIP) etc.
>
> compiler, if anyone is interested. Be warned that they are on RCA format
> disks!
Do you mean to say you have RCA Cosmac stuff on the 8'' hard sector
disks as used in the Pertec drives supplied by RCA with their 1802
Cosmac Delevopment system?
If so, have you got any way, and the intention, of making copies?
Bill
Tucson, AZ
nos...@nouce.bellatlantic.net
wrote:
>Yes, all of the above. I have at least 4 different 1802 assemblers; RCA,
>Hughes, Avocet (CP/M and DOS cross-assemblers), and Cross-16 (a
>"universal" assembler with 1802 configuration).
I ahve the Avocet (CP/M) and two dos/win compatables.
>As far as languages, RCA had Pascal, PLM, and 4 different BASICs for the
>1802. There was also FORTH (which included its own assembler), and Tom
>Pittman's Tiny BASIC (used in the Netronics ELF2 and Quest SuperELF).
>There were many specialized languages as well; IPS, 8TH (FORTH variants,
>CHIP8 (for the VIP) etc.
Also there was Quest tinybasic, I have the Ptape.
>I have the source for Tiny BASIC and RCA's full BASIC interpreter and
>compiler, if anyone is interested. Be warned that they are on RCA format
>disks!
I think they require UT40 or UT60 monitor/io Eproms. I have UT4.
Allison
Steven N. Hirsch
><944tech...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>>Off Topic.
>>I saw the 1802 discussed in the past few days. Does anyone know of a
>>site on the Web with a good 1802 Assembler & Disassembler. Ones that
>>will work together well.
>
>Don't know of a disassembler but there are assemblers for DOS/win
>boxen. PS18A12.zip is a file I have.
>
>with them.
See if you can find someone discarding an HP64000 development system
(circa 1980). I picked one up from the local university complete with
asm/dasm software for every old uProcessor under the sun, including
the 1802 and a bunch I'd never even heard of!
Steve
Lee Hart
Bill wrote:
> Do you mean to say you have RCA Cosmac stuff on the 8'' hard sector
> disks as used in the Pertec drives supplied by RCA with their 1802
> Cosmac Delevopment system? If so, have you got any way, and the
> intention, of making copies?
I used to, but about 10 years ago I laboriously copied some of the files
I thought I might want someday to 8" soft-sector format disks. The RCA
development system then went away. (PS -- I don't recall that the RCA
system was hard-sectored).
Unfortunately, I copied them on a Hughes Aircraft HMDS 1802 development
system. It was an S-100 computer underneath, but used Hughes own disk
operating system. Thus the data went from one obscure format to a
different obscure format! The Hughes is also now long gone.
I still have the disks, and can copy them (they are 8" SSDD soft sector
IBM 3740 format). But reading the data on them is laborious, as you need
to read the sectors with something like DU.COM, figure out what order
they should be in, and write them back to a normal CP/M format disk.
I have done this for the source file for RCA BASIC2 (the BASIC floating
point interpreter), and translated the mnemonics so it will assemble
with a non-RCA assembler, but not gotten it finished so it assembles
properly and matches the .HEX file.
Neil McNeight wrote:
> I'm not sure if it's redistributable or not, but I've got a copy of a
> 1802 version of Tiny BASIC.
If it's the one you got from me; yes, it is redistributable. I bought a
license from Tom Pittman for his Tiny BASIC. There is a manual and
source code.
John Wilson wrote:
> Somewhere I have a cassette for what IIRC was called "Super BASIC",
> for the Super Elf... Any idea if it's a derivative of one of RCA's
> BASICs, or something else entirely?
I don't remember for sure, but I think Quest Super BASIC was derived
from RCA's BASIC1 (a small integer BASIC).
Netronics BASIC was a derivitive of Tom Pittman's Tiny BASIC.
Allison wrote:
> I think they require UT40 or UT60 monitor/io Eproms. I have UT4.
Tom Pittman's Tiny BASIC only requires that you provide subroutines to
input a key, output a key, and turn a reader/punch on/off.
The version I wrote included the IDIOT monitor program, a clone of the
RCA monitors. It includes a software UART using the 1802's Q and EF4 I/O
bits, so no extra hardware is necessary. The IDIOT monitor and Tiny
BASIC occupy 3k, and fit in a 4k EPROM with 1k left over. BASIC checks
for a program in this leftover 1k, and runs it if present. Thus you can
write a program, burn it into ROM, and make stand-alone applications.
If you want to build an 1802 computer, all you need is an 1802, this
EPROM, a bytewide RAM, and a couple "glue" chips (an address latch and
RS-232 driver being the minimum).
bill_h
The system was four rack-mount pieces (I got), plus a quad
of H/P rack mounted monnitors (2x2, 1/2 width, ie a quad)
One each rack mount (two Pertec) 8'' drives; one RCA Cosmac
devlopment system with LED front panel and a few switches.
Two each racks of 20ea RCA (Vector Bus?) 16k cards (imagine,
a whole rack assembly for 320k of CMOS memory).(640k total)
There's a couple 2708's in there .... Probably one's a booter.
And a couple double-length A/D something something wire-wrapped
boards that obviously drove the H/P displays (which I didn't
get).
The company I never heard of being in the missle business.....
Any idea what this assemblage was used for?
Bill
Tucson, AZ
944Technologist
> The company I never heard of being in the missle business.....
>
> Any idea what this assemblage was used for?
>
> Bill
> Tucson, AZ
What was the company name?
Charles Richmond
archive...it would be great if all this were available on the 'net
at the same place.
There are a Tiny Pilot and a Tiny Editor available as hex listings
in some old issues of Kilobaud. It is on my project list to try
and get these into binary form suitable for executing on an 1802
or emulator. The listings are difficult to OCR because they were
printing using a teletype...real hobbyist stuff.
--
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond <rich...@plano.net> |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
944Technologist
Here is a Dutch site full of 1802 stuff. Much of the text is in Dutch
but there is a lot in English. Many source code listings with English
comments. Obviously the group did not write these. 1 Meg of Zip files.
944Technologist
_________________________________________
St. Z-Micro Software Download Page
http://www.xs4all.nl/~zelfbouw/download.htm
_________________________________________
Dutch Do-It-Yourself Club Microprocessor Systems
************************************************
English Summary
===============
The Z-Micro foundation is a Do-It-Yourself Club of hardware and software
enthousiasts in the Netherlands. The focus of the club is on a small 19"
microprocessor system called "CS1800". This modular system is ideal for
experimenting with self-made hard- and software. CS1800 is well suited
for control applications. It's full CMOS design features high noise
immunity and low power consumption. Special "Watchdog" hardware assures
fail/safe operation.
Neil McNeight
: Looks like all of you have enough combined to make a nice 1802
: archive...it would be great if all this were available on the 'net
: at the same place.
That's actually something I've been working on. Classes have resumed and I
don't have as much time as I used to, but I do have my own server on a T1
with no strings attached. If someone else is interested in actively
maintaining an 1802 archive, let me know and I'd be more than happy to
host it.
Lee Hart
> The system was four rack-mount pieces (I got), plus a quad
> One each rack mount (two Pertec) 8'' drives; one RCA Cosmac
> devlopment system with LED front panel and a few switches.
> Two each racks of 20ea RCA (Vector Bus?) 16k cards (imagine,
> a whole rack assembly for 320k of CMOS memory).(640k total)
Who knows... it's a computer, it can do anything (right? :-)
Lee Hart
> archive...it would be great if all this were available on the 'net
> at the same place.
The 1802 architecture was so simple that you could probably program one
into a modern PAL. This might seem silly, except that the 1802 was
remarkably fast and memory efficient, and had some unique features. A
modern PAL would probably give us a 100 MHz 1802, probably equivalent to
a 1000 MHz Intel CPU.
The built-in DMA allowed a system with ZERO bytes of ROM, that could
download data from a UART and execute it. This was done in many of the
amateur radio OSCAR satellites.
It could also produce video without a video controller, almost
bit-banging it with just a couple counters. The 1861 just had counters
for horizontal and vertical retrace, and a parallel-to-serial shift
register.
Minimizing hardware might seem pointless given today's "memory and speed
are free" mentality, except that the simpler the hardware, the less it
costs to make and the less power it takes to run it. 1802's can run off
a pocket calculator solar panel on room light. Try THAT with a Pentium!
Richard Erlacher
necessary resources. What's more, the entire CPU and register set
would take up small enough portions of modern devices that they could
share the same device with a peripheral device, hence making it a
useable single-chipper. The real question is why one would want to do
that, given the shortcomings of the 1802 architecture.
I'm sure there are a few improvements one could make in the course of
the process that could, conceivably move the effort in to a compatible
superset that would perform well and improve things quite a bit.
Unfortunately it's unlikely anyone would do that, as there are other
devices that would offer more support software, etc.
Dick
On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 21:03:00 GMT, Lee Hart <leea...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>> Looks like all of you have enough combined to make a nice 1802
>> archive...it would be great if all this were available on the 'net
>> at the same place.
>
nos...@nouce.bellatlantic.net
wrote:
>share the same device with a peripheral device, hence making it a
>useable single-chipper. The real question is why one would want to do
>that, given the shortcomings of the 1802 architecture.
I can offer one being an 1802 user and having done one out of ttl.
It's an machine that like PDP-8 is easy to understand and build one
with minimal pain.
SO IT'S CLEAR... I never said it's best or fast. Though the ttl
version I did was much faster and using 74HC series parts available
I could likely do better but at 10mhz its not to shabby.
>I'm sure there are a few improvements one could make in the course of
>the process that could, conceivably move the effort in to a compatible
>superset that would perform well and improve things quite a bit.
>Unfortunately it's unlikely anyone would do that, as there are other
>devices that would offer more support software, etc.
I looked at three things, a load/store 16bit immediate instructions
and a call/return pair. Another was stretching it to 32 bit wide
registers and 16 or 32 bit alu... more interesting but then its
just a slow RISC like thing. One oddity emerged is that when the
ALU is equal to the width of the registers the instruction set changes
radically as you don't need operator that work on byte level transfers
making the design simpler save for the incresed width of the paths.
Not worth a lot of effort save for the exercize and expereince.
Allison
>
>Dick
>
>On Wed, 11 Oct 2000 21:03:00 GMT, Lee Hart <leea...@earthlink.net>
>wrote:
>
>>> Looks like all of you have enough combined to make a nice 1802
>>> archive...it would be great if all this were available on the 'net
>>> at the same place.
>>
Lee Hart
> The real question is why one would want to do that, given the
> shortcomings of the 1802 architecture.
The 1802 architecture was actually very well thought out. It seems odd
only in comparison to others.
CPU architectures and instructions sets were a hot topic. You can do
amazing things when they are tailored to suit the job at hand, rather
than blindly accept a compromise designed for some other purpose.
For example, many pocket calculators have 4-bit CPUs, only 1-2k of ROM,
and run at under 1 MHz clock speeds. Yet they do advanced math, scan
keyboards and displays, etc. They generate negligible EMI and run on
microamps of power.
The 1802 is a superb controller, and very efficient in terms of memory
usage and power consumption for control-oriented tasks. Its fixed
instruction execution times, built-in DMA, and multiple program counters
and stack pointers makes real-time programming easy. And I remember Tom
Pittman telling me he never found another CPU that could implement Tiny
BASIC in less memory than an 1802.
Resources get squandered when they are cheap and plentiful. But usually,
this is only an illusion; it just means that someone else is paying for
it. I appreciate the Zen simplicity of finding solutions that are as
Einstein said, "As simple as possible, but no simpler."
Paul Guertin
> Richard Erlacher wrote:
> > The real question is why one would want to do that, given the
> > shortcomings of the 1802 architecture.
>
> The 1802 architecture was actually very well thought out. It seems odd
> only in comparison to others.
Do you know if there is an 1802 tutorial on the Internet for
people who know other assembly languages but want to know more
about the 1802?
Paul Guertin
p...@sff.net
Stewart and Leta Marshall
vintage chip, the more I am impressed with it. Too many things are
produced today with optimizing for a mass market and shaving
manufacturing costs by every fraction of a cent as the two top
priorities.
Stewart
Rich Beaudry
Here's my short list of 1802 references:
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-33.htm
http://mason.gmu.edu/~lturner3/Cosmac.html
http://www.intersil.com (search for 1802 -- you'll find a datasheet)
http://archive.comlab.ox.ac.uk/cards.html -- MANY instruction set
references!
Links to CHIP-8 information (language used for games on the CDP1802)
http://www.realtime-info.com/encyc/techno/terms/20/15.htm
http://www.funet.fi/pub/misc/hp48sx/chip/chipper2_1
Also, search Google with "CDP1802" or "COSMAC" for MANY more hits....
Rich B.
"Paul Guertin" <p...@sff.net> wrote in message
news:ukvnus4ikr01eusre...@news.newsguy.com...
paolo
there was a canadian company called Universal Cross Assemblers producig a
product called cross8,cross16 and cross32 and they had also a disassembler
I suppose also for cosmac
paolo