History--Kildall and DR-70
Axel Harvey
Most articles I have seen about Gary Kildall mention the "Astrology
Machine" he developed at Digital Research in the 1970s. Around the same
time (late 70s?) a company with almost the same name, Digicomp
Research, marketed the DR-70, a dedicated device that could perform a
wide variety of horoscopic calculations. The size of a small desktop
calculator, it was amazingly fast and convenient to use, even with the
small onboard LED panel; but one could also purchase a thermal printer
for it.
Does anyone with a good knowledge of the industry in the 1970s know if
there was any connection between the two machines?
Paul Schlyter
Axel Harvey <a...@cam.org> wrote:
> Most articles I have seen about Gary Kildall mention the "Astrology
> Machine" he developed at Digital Research in the 1970s. Around the same
> time (late 70s?) a company with almost the same name, Digicomp
> Research, marketed the DR-70, a dedicated device that could perform a
> wide variety of horoscopic calculations. The size of a small desktop
> calculator, it was amazingly fast and convenient to use, even with the
> small onboard LED panel; but one could also purchase a thermal printer
> for it.
Or perhaps, even worse, he didn't believe in it, but prostituted himself,
doing it only for the money.... :-((((((((((((((((((
> Does anyone with a good knowledge of the industry in the 1970s know if
> there was any connection between the two machines?
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter, Swedish Amateur Astronomer's Society (SAAF)
Grev Turegatan 40, S-114 38 Stockholm, SWEDEN
e-mail: pausch at saaf dot se or paul.schlyter at ausys dot se
WWW: http://hotel04.ausys.se/pausch http://welcome.to/pausch
Bill
> In article <Pine.LNX.4.10.10108...@localhost.localdomain>,
> Axel Harvey <a...@cam.org> wrote:
>
>> Most articles I have seen about Gary Kildall mention the "Astrology
>> Machine" he developed at Digital Research in the 1970s. Around the same
>> time (late 70s?) a company with almost the same name, Digicomp
>> Research, marketed the DR-70, a dedicated device that could perform a
>> wide variety of horoscopic calculations. The size of a small desktop
>> calculator, it was amazingly fast and convenient to use, even with the
>> small onboard LED panel; but one could also purchase a thermal printer
>> for it.
>
> Too bad such a great mind believed in superstition.... :-(
>
> Or perhaps, even worse, he didn't believe in it, but prostituted himself,
> doing it only for the money.... :-((((((((((((((((((
>
>> Does anyone with a good knowledge of the industry in the 1970s know if
>> there was any connection between the two machines?
I worked at DRI for over three years in the 1980s. I never heard the
astrology project mentioned by anyone--not even Gary. But then, DRI
did a lot of things of which I was totally ignorant. I tended to stay
huddled in my cubicle working on my projects (I wrote most of DRI's
8086 Fortran IV runtime system and, later became the FLEXOS "linker"
man).
Perhaps Gary did do something with astrology, but he also was among the
first (or maybe was the first) to put an encyclopaedia on a CD-ROM. I
remember speaking with someone on that project who told me that the
CD-ROM's search engine data bank took many hours (days?) to produce.
But, that time spent on the front end of the CD-ROM production meant
that the user could find almost anything in a fraction of a second or so.
--
Bill
(bill)[at](haygood)[dot](missoula)[dot](mt)[dot](us)
12:05pm up 19:32, 9 users, load average: 3.00, 3.00, 2.92
Geoffrey G. Rochat
>Too bad such a great mind believed in superstition.... :-(
>
>Or perhaps, even worse, he didn't believe in it, but prostituted
himself,
>doing it only for the money.... :-((((((((((((((((((
>
Yeah, just like those other losers, Johannes Kepler and Isaac Newton.
<grin>
Bill
>
> Too bad such a great mind believed in superstition.... :-(
>
> Or perhaps, even worse, he didn't believe in it, but prostituted himself,
> doing it only for the money.... :-((((((((((((((((((
Gary was a thoughtful, very soft-spoken man. Very frequently he would
invite DRI employees to have lunch with him. He invited me on several
occassions. From the discussions we had, I would find it extraordinarily
difficult to believe that Gary would have believed in superstition or
would have prostituted himself for money. Why would he do that? He
already had millions.
Axel Harvey
I must set the record straight. There is no authenticated evidence that
Isaac Newton liked astrology; there is even evidence suggesting that he
did *not* like it, and the old anecdote about the exchange between
Halley (or Hooke?) and Newton is an urban legend. On the other hand,
Newton *did* tell de Moivre that it was an astrology book purchased at
a fair, in his youth, that enticed him to learn mathematics so he could
understand its formulas.
Kepler, of course, not only practiced astrology but theorized about it
and introduced new methods into the discipline. I have recently found
out that Cavalieri (whose volume theorem is in every textbook) was
another astrologer. Needless to say there were hundreds like him before
the Victorian age buttoned down scientists' minds.
Back to my original query: so nobody knows about any relationship
between Digital Research and Digicomp Research in the 1970s, huh?
Paul Schlyter
>>
>>>> Too bad such a great mind believed in superstition.... :-(
>>>>
>>>> Or perhaps, even worse, he didn't believe in it, but prostituted
>>>> himself, doing it only for the money.... :-((((((((((((((((((
>>>
>>> Yeah, just like those other losers, Johannes Kepler and Isaac Newton.
>>> <grin>
>
> I must set the record straight. There is no authenticated evidence that
> Isaac Newton liked astrology; there is even evidence suggesting that he
> did *not* like it, and the old anecdote about the exchange between
> Halley (or Hooke?) and Newton is an urban legend. On the other hand,
> Newton *did* tell de Moivre that it was an astrology book purchased at
> a fair, in his youth, that enticed him to learn mathematics so he could
> understand its formulas.
but then turned his mind to other matters: mostly alchemy and
biblical chronology. He invented and produced his own "patent
medicine" which contained, among other things, turpentine: that
medicine was to be applied both internally and externally - he used a
lot of it himself. He spent more time on biblical chronology than on
mathematics and physics combined. At Newton's death 1/3 of his
library consisted of alchemical literature. Samples of his hair
analyzed a long time after his death showed 40 times more mercury
than normal. It appears he was lucky that he didn't poison himself
during his alchemical experiments.
This is the less known "other side of Newton". His brilliant
contributions to math, physics and astronomy were created during his
youth - when Newton grew older, his "other side" took over. He was
also well-known for his severe temper. Newton remained single all
his life - at the age of 82 he was still a virgin, and proud of it!
(Albert Einstein was a quite different person: he got started when he
was relatively old, and even during his final years he was trying to
improve his theory of relativity - as physicists still do, he dreamt
of somehow merging it with quantum physics. Einstein also had a
family, like people usually do.)
> Kepler, of course, not only practiced astrology but theorized about it
> and introduced new methods into the discipline. I have recently found
> out that Cavalieri (whose volume theorem is in every textbook) was
> another astrologer. Needless to say there were hundreds like him before
> the Victorian age buttoned down scientists' minds.
of course. Tycho Brahe (who was older than Kepler) was expected to
produce horoscopes to the royal family members. Tycho strongly
disliked this, but he had to do it since the king funded his
observatory and if he refused, he'd lose his funds. Eventually he
lost his funds anyway: when Denmark got a new king, Tycho had to escape
the country. He went to Prague, where he met Kepler -- and the rest
is history.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
One cannot really judge people from different times by the same
measures. A generation or two before Newton, almost everyone took
astrology for granted, including scientists. At the time of Newton,
the opinion among scientists about astrology was split. And a
generation or two after Newton, astrology was finally generally
recognized as the superstition it is among scientists. Therefore, to
believe in astrology at Kepler's time is one thing; to believe in it
in modern times is another, very different, thing: today people ought
to know better.
Tom Darcy
that --- What cannot be spoken about must be resigned to silence. What we
have here is a great deal of brandishing of OPINIONS and very little truth.
One would have to study a little to know the difference.
--
TOM
Jeff Jonas
>first (or maybe was the first) to put an encyclopaedia on a CD-ROM.
>I remember speaking with someone on that project who told me that the
>CD-ROM's search engine data bank took many hours (days?) to produce.
>But, that time spent on the front end of the CD-ROM production meant
>that the user could find almost anything in a fraction of a second or so.
That sounds right: I worked at a CD database company around 1990
and it took a day or 2 to generate the hash tables and support for
quick search indexes. There were many resellers of Medlib but their
"value added" was the search engine where advanced users could express
their search very clearly and reduce false hits.
The founders were medical librarians so they knew what was needed
and how to implement it in the most stratight forward manner!
Their search engine was far faster than any competitors'
thanks to that "pre-digestion".
--
Jeffrey Jonas
jeffj@panix(dot)com
The original Dr. JCL and Mr .hide
Axel Harvey
> In Wittgenstein's "Tractatus Logico Philosophicus" [ ... ]
Gee! Wittgenstein is one of my favourites, but my intention was not to
engage in a discussion on astrology. I only want to know about an
obscure corner of the early history of microcomputing. The clearest
mention of Kildall's astrology project is in
www.ddj.com/articles/1997/9718i.htm
It implies that the work on this project was done in 1973, and that
some of its software eventually went into the prototype of CP/M. The
dedicated machine itself is sometimes referred to as "Astrology
Machine", sometimes as "Computer Cast".
The other machine--if it really is different--was called DR-70 and
marketed by Digicomp Research (not Digital...) It must have been
developed around the same time, because I'm fairly sure I know someone
who owned one before 1980.
So--were these two completely separate projects, or did one of them
come from the other?
Axel Harvey
> www.ddj.com/articles/1997/9718i.htm
That should be
www.ddj.com/articles/1997/9718/9718i/9718i.htm
I'm trying to reach the author.
Tom Darcy
discussion of what reality is because if you are familiar with Wittgenstein
you must be aware of other philosophical works. Like Socrates proof of
re-incarnation in the "Timeus" with the demonstration of remembrance and
geometry with the slave boy. If one has read some Plato they would
understand the differences I was pointing out. I love debate but not when
I'm looking for techne'.
--
TOM
Richard Plinston
> obscure corner of the early history of microcomputing. The clearest
> mention of Kildall's astrology project is in
> www.ddj.com/articles/1997/9718i.htm
>
> marketed by Digicomp Research (not Digital...) It must have been
> developed around the same time, because I'm fairly sure I know someone
> who owned one before 1980.
>
The article starts with:
> Meanwhile, Gary found himself involved with another hardware
> engineer on another microprocessor-based project. ...
> Ben Cooper was a San Francisco hardware designer who had worked
> with George Morrow on disk systems and later would, like Torode, start
> his own computer company, Micromation. In the early '70s, he thought
> he could build a commercially successful machine to cast horoscopes,
^^ he=Ben Cooper
> and he enlisted Gary's help.
It seems to me that Gary was 'roped in' onto Ben Cooper's project and he
helped out. There is no indication at all that Digital Research would
be building the machine, in fact quite the contrary:
> The business was not a successя"a total bust," Gary later called it. Still,
> the Astrology Machine gave Gary the first field test of several programs
> he had written and rewritten over the past months: a debugger, an
> assembler, and part of an editor. He also wrote a Basic interpreter that
> he used to program the Astrology Machine.
Gary's involment was entirely in developing system software, possibly on
a consultancy basis, possibly for free. The only significance of this
episode is that it is the origin of the Basic that
Eubanks developed.
earlier: Axel Harvey <a...@cam.org> wrote:
> Most articles I have seen about Gary Kildall mention the "Astrology
> Machine" he developed at Digital Research in the 1970s.
I see no indication that it was developed 'at Digital Research', in fact
it specifically states it was an outsider: Ben Cooper. Gary's only
involment was system software.
Paul Schlyter wrote:
> Too bad such a great mind believed in superstition.... :-(
I see absolutely nothing that supports any view that Gary believed in
astrology or even worked on the astrology programming, only that he
wrote a Basic interpreter for it.
> Or perhaps, even worse, he didn't believe in it, but prostituted himself,
> doing it only for the money.... :-((((((((((((((((((
I see no indication that he did it for any money at all, though as a
consultant he may have been paid for his system software development.
Nor do I see why consultancy and selling of software should be called
prostitution.
Axel Harvey wrote:
> So--were these two completely separate projects, or did one of them
> come from the other?
There was never any 'Digital Research Astrology Machine' project, it is
an entire figment of your misreading. It was Ben Cooper's project and
may have been sold to DigiComp Research or may have been the 'complete
bust' that Gary said of it.
Axel Harvey
> It seems to me that Gary was 'roped in' onto Ben Cooper's project and he
> helped out. There is no indication at all that Digital Research would
> be building the machine, in fact quite the contrary:
You very probably right, and your interpretation is supported by a
couple of posts that have appeared in this thread, although I have
never seen anywhere that Digital would *not* be building such a
machine; in any case I don't see why the tone of your response is so
snippish. I'm only asking for information.
> > The business was not a successÿ"a total bust," Gary later called it. Still,
> > the Astrology Machine gave Gary the first field test of several programs
> > he had written and rewritten over the past months: a debugger, an
> > assembler, and part of an editor. He also wrote a Basic interpreter that
> > he used to program the Astrology Machine.
>
> Gary's involment was entirely in developing system software, possibly on
> a consultancy basis, possibly for free. The only significance of this
> episode is that it is the origin of the Basic that Eubanks developed.
No, it's a bit more complicated. The Basic interpreter went to Eubanks,
but the debugger, assembler, and editor were incorporated into CP/M or
into software that accompanied or was used to develop CP/M. At least,
so I gather from the same article (Dr Dobb's Journal, Spring 1997,
www.ddj.com/articles/1997/9718/9718i/9718i.htm ) which goes on to say
Still, the Astrology Machine gave Gary the first field test of several
programs he had written and rewritten over the past months: a
debugger, an assembler, and part of an editor. [ ... ] All the
programs, with the exception of the interpreter, became part of the
disk operating system he was writing to control the controller that
Torode was building.
CP/M
As they worked on the hardware and software to make the computer and
disk drive work together, Kildall and Torode traded thoughts on the
potential of these microprocessors. [ ... ]
When Torode finished the controller, Gary polished the software to
control it. This was a disk operating system, the first such for a
microcomputer, and Gary called it CP/M, for "Control Program/Monitor"
or "Control Program for Microcomputers." [ ... ]
Richard Plinston
> in any case I don't see why the tone of your response is so
> snippish. I'm only asking for information.
Well no you weren't 'just asking for information', you started by
speading complete misinformation, such as:
>>> mention the "Astrology Machine" he developed at Digital Research in the 1970s.
Gary did _not_ 'develop' the Astrology Machine, he consulted to the
developer and supplied some software for it.
It was not done at 'Digital Research', in fact DRI didn't even exist at
that time:
>> Gary had been doing his consulting and development work under the
>> name "MAA," or "Microcomputer Applications Associates."
> although I have never seen anywhere that Digital would *not* be
> building such a machine;
Didn't you get some clue from DRI never having produced _any_ hardware
? Anyway Gary called it a 'bust' which indicated that he had no
confidence in it.
Just stop making things up.
Axel Harvey
>> in any case I don't see why the tone of your response is so
>> snippish. I'm only asking for information.
> Well no you weren't 'just asking for information', you started by
> speading complete misinformation, such as:
>>> mention the "Astrology Machine" he developed at Digital Research in
>>> the 1970s.
When one is looking for information, it is likely that one has not got
all the facts straight. At the time I posted my original query, I had
not yet seem the Dr Dobb's article I later quoted. I had, however, seen
references to an "Astrology Machine" on which Kildall had worked; now I
suppose the people making those references were using the term
"Machine" in the loose sense that includes virtual machines. It is
neither necessary nor civil of you to have responded the way you did:
you could have laid out the facts as you saw them and informed us all
politely.
> Gary did _not_ 'develop' the Astrology Machine, he consulted to the
> developer and supplied some software for it.
See below.
> It was not done at 'Digital Research', in fact DRI didn't even exist
> at that time:
>> Gary had been doing his consulting and development work under the
>> name "MAA," or "Microcomputer Applications Associates."
Quite so, thanks for the information. I am not familiar with all this
part of history.
> Just stop making things up.
That is a "when did you stop beating your wife" sort of remark that is
uncalled for.
From a later post of mine:
===============================
No, it's a bit more complicated. The Basic interpreter went to Eubanks,
but the debugger, assembler, and editor were incorporated into CP/M or
into software that accompanied or was used to develop CP/M. At least,
so I gather from the same article (Dr Dobb's Journal, Spring 1997,
[25]www.ddj.com/articles/1997/9718/9718i/9718i.htm ) which goes on to say
Bill
DRI had its manuals printed by "Commercial Press of Monterey" in
Monterey CA. Later, when DRI became quite successful, it purchased
"Commercial Press of Monterey" and we DRI employees joked about the
"CPM" letters in the printer's company name.
Richard Plinston
> The article starts with:
> [..]
> It seems to me that Gary was 'roped in' onto Ben Cooper's project and he
> helped out. There is no indication at all that Digital Research would
> be building the machine, in fact quite the contrary:
> Gary's involment was entirely in developing system software, possibly on
> a consultancy basis, possibly for free. The only significance of this
> episode is that it is the origin of the Basic that
> Eubanks developed.
> I see no indication that it was developed 'at Digital Research', in fact
> it specifically states it was an outsider: Ben Cooper. Gary's only
> involment was system software.
> I see absolutely nothing that supports any view that Gary believed in
> astrology or even worked on the astrology programming, only that he
> wrote a Basic interpreter for it.
> I see no indication that he did it for any money at all, though as a
> consultant he may have been paid for his system software development.
> Nor do I see why consultancy and selling of software should be called
> prostitution.
> There was never any 'Digital Research Astrology Machine' project, it is
> an entire figment of your misreading. It was Ben Cooper's project and
> may have been sold to DigiComp Research or may have been the 'complete
> bust' that Gary said of it.
Axel Harvey wrote:
> It is
> neither necessary nor civil of you to have responded the way you did:
> you could have laid out the facts as you saw them and informed us all
> politely.
I would be very interested in knowing what, specifically, you find
'snippish' [sic], uncivil or impolite in any of the above that I wrote.
If I had really wanted to be impolite or uncivil you would have noticed
it in the words instead of it being an entire figment of your
imagination. If you don't like that, then don't post to newsgroups,
especially don't post misinformation.
Barry
about floppy drives from IBM costing $500 in the early 70s. I
bought my first floppy drive about 1980 or maybe 81. Could even
have been 82.
The price kept me from buying one earlier. I couldn't find
anything less than about $800. Then I found one on sale at $499
and bought it. I think it's regular price at that time was $799.
Maybe $699. Shortly after that prices dropped and $499 became
normal.
So how could you get one in the early 70s for $500? Anybody know?
I was working on mainframes then and we got some floppy systems to
experimentally replace keypunches. I remember thinking that was
kind of a silly idea at the time. :)
I don't remember what they cost each but I do remember that it was
an expensive experiment. I don't know how much of that was due to
hardware.
Barry
"Richard Plinston" <rip...@Azonic.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3B7A23FE...@Azonic.co.nz...
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