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Robert Swartz

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Feb 1, 1995, 12:26:49 PM2/1/95
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It is my sad duty to announce that Mark Williams Company has gone out
of business. There are many reasons for this decision. Some are due
to mistakes that we have made, some to changing business conditions;
but the bottom line is that we must shut our doors.

In our 15 years of business, Mark Williams Company made history in the
computer industry through a series of breakthrough products, of which
any company would be proud: Coherent, the first commercially viable
clone of UNIX - and the first reasonably priced UNIX for home PCs; csd,
the world's first C source debugger; Let's C, the first low-cost
professional C compiler for the IBM PC; Mark Williams C for the Atari ST,
the first industrial-strength compiler for that machine, and in some ways
still the best; C compilers for Intel, DEC, and Wang; and others too
numerous to list here. That we've survived so long and done so much is a
testament to the many very capable people who have worked here over the
years; but mainly it is due to our loyal customers, who made it all
possible. Thank you, one and all.

Site mwc.com will be going off the air. Those of you who need technical
support can still poll comp.os.coherent; some of our now-former MWC employees
have volunteered to help out.

Again, thank you, and good-bye.

Bob Swartz
r...@mwc.com
Mark Williams Co.
60 Revere Drive
Northbrook, IL 60062
708-291-6700

Bill Nadvornik

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Feb 1, 1995, 5:27:09 PM2/1/95
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Well that sucks!

"I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."
--Jessica Rabbit

Christine Maxwell

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Feb 1, 1995, 7:44:59 PM2/1/95
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Bill Nadvornik (bi...@GEORGE.PSYCH.WRIGHT.EDU) wrote:
: Well that sucks!

: "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."
: --Jessica Rabbit

: On Wed, 1 Feb 1995, Robert Swartz wrote:

: > It is my sad duty to announce that Mark Williams Company has gone out
: > of business. There are many reasons for this decision. Some are due
: > to mistakes that we have made, some to changing business conditions;
: > but the bottom line is that we must shut our doors.

Hmmm... PLEASE tell me this is a bad bad joke...

If this is real, what happens to Coherent? will we be able to purchase
copies of the Source Code? how about the Device Driver Kit?

Christine

Christopher Hilton

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Feb 1, 1995, 8:13:13 PM2/1/95
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This is sad news. I don't think that I would have had the chance to
learn half of what I know about Unix if I didn't have Coherent to
experiment with. I'd like to offer my continued support to anyone who
needs help with device drivers, SCSI or otherwise here. I still poll
c.o.c and can be reached directly via e-mail at:

chi...@mcs.com

-Christopher Sean Hilton
-haiscsi developer


--
Christopher Sean Hilton E-mail: chi...@mcs.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
ICBM address: | "Thus it is said if you know them and know
42 07 39 N/87 49 44 W | yourself, your victory will not be imperiled.
For PGP key finger: | If you know Heaven and you know Earth, your
chi...@mcs.com | victory will be complete." - Sun Tsu
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dmitry Gringauz

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Feb 1, 1995, 8:21:38 PM2/1/95
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Christine Maxwell (ka...@crl.com) wrote:

: Bill Nadvornik (bi...@GEORGE.PSYCH.WRIGHT.EDU) wrote:
: : Well that sucks!

: : "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."
: : --Jessica Rabbit

: : On Wed, 1 Feb 1995, Robert Swartz wrote:

: : > It is my sad duty to announce that Mark Williams Company has gone out
: : > of business. There are many reasons for this decision. Some are due
: : > to mistakes that we have made, some to changing business conditions;
: : > but the bottom line is that we must shut our doors.

: Hmmm... PLEASE tell me this is a bad bad joke...

Sadly, this is not a joke.

: If this is real, what happens to Coherent? will we be able to purchase

: copies of the Source Code? how about the Device Driver Kit?

I have no idea.

: Christine

RW

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Feb 1, 1995, 11:20:20 PM2/1/95
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Christine Maxwell (ka...@crl.com) wrote:

I've heard this from a couple of other reliable sources prior to
seeing it on this newsgroup. It's no joke. MWC is closed. I have
no idea if there will be any further distribution of coherent or
driver kits. However, if you need something, it might be useful
to ask specifically on this newsgroup.

I have a hunch that coherent will continue to be viable because
there is a base of users and interest.

--Randy
--------- r...@rwsys.wimsey.bc.ca ---------------------

Chris Mauritz

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Feb 2, 1995, 3:21:14 PM2/2/95
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RW (r...@rwsys.wimsey.bc.ca) wrote:

Um....if the company is out of business and nobody has the source,
how is there going to be development of vital missing parts?

As an aside, my heart goes out to the dedicated programmers at MWC.
Good luck!

Regards,

Chris

--
Christopher Mauritz | For info on internet access:
ri...@mordor.com | finger/mail in...@ritz.mordor.com OR
Mordor International | http://www.mordor.com/
201/212/718 internet access | Modem: (201)433-7343,(212)843-3451

Christine Maxwell

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Feb 2, 1995, 3:36:02 PM2/2/95
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RW (r...@rwsys.wimsey.bc.ca) wrote:

: --Randy
: --------- r...@rwsys.wimsey.bc.ca ---------------------


Sigh... my concern wasn't for lack of support, but for my own company.
For the last year or so, I have devoted all my resources, including time,
to building a good inventory of commmercial grade software for Coherent,
as I was hoping to offer third party support as Coherent grew into a
major operating system. Granted, perhaps my expectations were
unreasonable, but then dreams often are... If Coherent is no longer to be
sold, or developed, I shall have to begin moving my apps to another
platform perforce... I cannot afford (especially financially) to hope to
make a go of it on a market that is not a growing market. sigh...

Christine

Robert (Oracle-AU) Bagnall

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Feb 2, 1995, 9:17:25 PM2/2/95
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In article <dmitryD3...@netcom.com> dmi...@netcom.com (Dmitry Gringauz) writes:
>Christine Maxwell (ka...@crl.com) wrote:
>: Bill Nadvornik (bi...@GEORGE.PSYCH.WRIGHT.EDU) wrote:

>: : > It is my sad duty to announce that Mark Williams Company has gone out
>: : > of business. There are many reasons for this decision. Some are due

>: Hmmm... PLEASE tell me this is a bad bad joke...


>
>Sadly, this is not a joke.
>
>: If this is real, what happens to Coherent? will we be able to purchase
>: copies of the Source Code? how about the Device Driver Kit?

Damn !

I'm still on an earlier release of 4, and wanted to upgrade to
the .10 release, as well as getting 3 1/2 disks (I don't have
a 5 1/4 drive any more after getting a new machine).

Does any know if it would be legaly possible to copy Coherent now
MWC no longer exist ?

Anyone have a copy of the latest release on 3 1/2 and would like to make a
copy for me ? (Since I'm a registered user and a member of the MWC
club, it doesn't look too illegal to me.)

- Robert.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Bagnall | "Baldric, that is the worst plan since Abe Lincoln
Oracle World Wide Support|said to his wife, <I'm sick of sitting around the
324 St. Kilda Rd |house, let's catch a show>"
Melbourne, Australia 3004| - Edmund Blackadder, BA4
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

ZeDiane

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Feb 2, 1995, 1:40:19 PM2/2/95
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I do not appreciate the fact that I just recently purchased this package and
have not even completed the 60 day trial period.... Now what happens if
there's anything wrong or I decide I do not want this package????
Diane
zed...@interaccess.com


excess clipped to save bandwidth....


>> It is my sad duty to announce that Mark Williams Company has gone out
>> of business. There are many reasons for this decision. Some are due
>> to mistakes that we have made, some to changing business conditions;
>> but the bottom line is that we must shut our doors.

>> Bob Swartz


>> r...@mwc.com
>> Mark Williams Co.
>> 60 Revere Drive
>> Northbrook, IL 60062
>> 708-291-6700
>>

zed...@interaccess.com

Jagadeesh Krishnamurthy Venugopal

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Feb 2, 1995, 10:41:46 PM2/2/95
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>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Swartz <r...@MWC.COM> writes:

Robert> It is my sad duty to announce that Mark Williams Company has gone out
Robert> of business. There are many reasons for this decision. Some are due
Robert> to mistakes that we have made, some to changing business conditions;
Robert> but the bottom line is that we must shut our doors.

Sad but true. If MWC had put in the improvements Coherent sorely needed they
might have had a real winner, a la BSDI today. If they had put in network
support and a proper virtual memory system, there definitely would have been a
great market for it. And the sad thing is there is a lot of places they could
have got the source from-- FreeBSD or Linux code could have been adapted.

That and another factor being GNU and the GPL is effectively killing
competition in the PC Unix clone industry. For good or for bad, the Unix-
PC clone industry has almost ceased to exist. Everything is free now and the
only money to be made is in applications or support.

Adieu to a veteran. Coherent started a trend that is a popular movement now--
cheap affordable Unix clones.


--
Jagadeesh K. Venugopal | The more you study,
Grad Student, CCS | the more you realize,
Northeastern University | that there is a lot in your field
Boston, MA 02115 | you don't know a thing about.

Igor C. Raven

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Feb 3, 1995, 12:06:13 AM2/3/95
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> Feb 1995 Robert Swartz
> It is my sad duty to announce that Mark Williams Company has gone out
> of business. There are many reasons for this decision. Some are due
> to mistakes that we have made, some to changing business conditions;
> but the bottom line is that we must shut our doors.
>
[ some text cut ]
On Wed, Feb 1995, Robert Swartz wrote:
> This is to amplify my earlier posting. Please note that Coherent,
> its sources, and its documentation and manual pages remain under
> copyritht. They may not be copied or distributed without the written
> permission of Mark Williams Company.
>
> bob Swartz
> r...@mwc.com
I am very sorry to hear of MWC's failure. Mostly I feel the
injustice to those that have worked for Coherent on line, employees
and nonemployees.

I owe a personal tanks to all of you.

The above statement from MWC proves that management is still Firmly
Out of Control.
Even after a history of mismanagement and failure to listen to the
technical side of the house, they are not willing to cut any slack
to the abandoned. As orphans we now have no rights. They are not
willing to allow us to try to salvage and improve the O/s, using the
public forum. If they can't have it their way then we must all suffer.

A sale to SCO would not be all bad.
Cut a deal with FSF for a tax right off.

<------ ig...@crl.com ------>
igor raven
<- ig...@mercury.sfsu.edu ->

Bob Chalmers

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Feb 3, 1995, 3:14:04 AM2/3/95
to
Dmitry Gringauz (dmi...@netcom.com) wrote:

: Christine Maxwell (ka...@crl.com) wrote:
: : Bill Nadvornik (bi...@GEORGE.PSYCH.WRIGHT.EDU) wrote:


Ok, so management is dead. Lets see what happens to the product.
For starters, I continue to use the product.
The archive on silver is still going, and will continue in existance
for at least years yet.
I will still continue to port/write/code for Coherent for as long as I use
it. I still use SCO, and the two go hand in hand.

If there is a company can take over/buy whatever the Coherent product,
now is the time.

So - Bottom line. The archive on silver is and will be still available.

Bob
--
...........It's not just skill. It's knowing how to do it...................
| Robert Chalmers. ,-._|\*<-Mackay rob...@nanguo.cstpl.com.au |
| cstpl.com.au. / \ FAX: +61 79 524032 PH: +61 79 524395 |
| International Access. \_.-\__/ *Info, in...@cstpl.com.au |
| AARNet Value Added Reseller. v *Sales, sa...@cstpl.com.au |
|---MIME CAPABLE------* ao zhong you yi wan sui *--------------------------|

R. A. Frazier

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Feb 3, 1995, 4:17:13 AM2/3/95
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r...@MWC.COM (Robert Swartz) wrote:


>
>It is my sad duty to announce that Mark Williams
>Company has gone out of business. There are many
>reasons for this decision. Some are due to mistakes
>that we have made, some to changing business
>conditions; but the bottom line is that we must shut
>our doors.
>

>In our 15 years of business, Mark Williams Company made
>history in the computer industry through a series of
>breakthrough products, of which any company would be
>proud: Coherent, the first commercially viable clone
>of UNIX - and the first reasonably priced UNIX for home
>PCs; csd, the world's first C source debugger; Let's
>C, the first low-cost professional C compiler for the
>IBM PC; Mark Williams C for the Atari ST, the first
>industrial-strength compiler for that machine, and in
>some ways still the best; C compilers for Intel, DEC,
>and Wang; and others too numerous to list here. That
>we've survived so long and done so much is a testament
>to the many very capable people who have worked here
>over the years; but mainly it is due to our loyal
>customers, who made it all possible. Thank you, one
>and all.
>
>Site mwc.com will be going off the air. Those of you
>who need technical support can still poll
>comp.os.coherent; some of our now-former MWC employees
>have volunteered to help out.
>
>Again, thank you, and good-bye.
>

>Bob Swartz
>r...@mwc.com
>Mark Williams Co.
>60 Revere Drive
>Northbrook, IL 60062
>708-291-6700

There are too many things to miss from the passing of MWC.
It's always sad when a company that has provided so much
to so many fails in the real world. I used the original and
upgraded versions of their C development system and CSD in our
work, used Let's C as a teaching tool, and every version of
Coherent. What I'll miss most is the availability of a
knowledgeable and friendly voice on the phone. To all the MWC
people I wish you success in whatever path you follow. Many
join me in the loss.

Judge Frazier
rf...@hooked.net


Hans Bezemer

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Feb 3, 1995, 4:24:56 AM2/3/95
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r...@MWC.COM (Robert Swartz) writes:

Well, I've been using Coherent for about one year. I liked the ability
to put a full Unix version on limited resources (e.g. a small laptop).
However, there were some things that were putting me off:

- No network support
- No tape drive support (not in my version, although it was mentioned in the
docs)
- No full ANSI-C compiler (I had to rewrite all my sources!)
- Bad compatibility with other OS (e.g. Linux, Coherent, DOS, OS/2 on one
system).

May be it seems overdone so many OS, but since I'm (also) a developer I need
them all!

I will continue to use Coherent on smaller systems, but I will now defininitely
switch to Linux, since Coherent will die on lack of support. There are a few
reasons why it will:

- No supporting company
- Other cheap replacements (like Linux)
- No other body (like a users/development group) that will continue to add
features to the system.

OS are like sharks: when they stop moving they die. However, MWC did a great
job while it lasted: making a affordable system for the lot of us that
cannot pull out big bills for an Unix OS. Thanks for that. It's time to
move on.

Hans.

A
A

A

Jeff Kilgore

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Feb 3, 1995, 11:50:03 AM2/3/95
to
I too would like to extend my thanks to the people who made Coherent
what it was. I started out using 3.2 and stayed with it until 4.2.10.
I learned a lot; running Coherent on my home system was a real asset
in my personal career growth. I finally switched to Linux a few
months ago, primarily because I needed things such as networking,
virtual memory, and tape support. I still have a warm place in my
heart for Coherent.

Jeff, KC1MK

ba...@bbs.ug.eds.com

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Feb 3, 1995, 12:03:39 PM2/3/95
to
>>
>
> This is sad news. I don't think that I would have had the chance to
> learn half of what I know about Unix if I didn't have Coherent to
> experiment with. I'd like to offer my continued support to anyone who
> needs help with device drivers, SCSI or otherwise here. I still poll
> c.o.c and can be reached directly via e-mail at:
>
> chi...@mcs.com
>
> -Christopher Sean Hilton
> -haiscsi developer
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Would it be possible to still get the latest revision? I am still running
4.2.05. I plan to continue using COHERENT and some software requires the
4.2.10 update.
Thanks.

Igor C. Raven

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Feb 3, 1995, 2:05:52 PM2/3/95
to

I have had Coh on my system begining with version 3.1. But i just
joined the CLUB ;-))
Being a new club member i would like to purchas The Coherent GNU
Tools pack, COHware Volumes 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. ;-)

MWC make us a last offer, EAsy Money

Udo Munk

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Feb 4, 1995, 6:56:59 AM2/4/95
to
Christine Maxwell (ka...@crl.com) wrote:
[...]
: Sigh... my concern wasn't for lack of support, but for my own company.
: For the last year or so, I have devoted all my resources, including time,
: to building a good inventory of commmercial grade software for Coherent,
: as I was hoping to offer third party support as Coherent grew into a
: major operating system. Granted, perhaps my expectations were
: unreasonable, but then dreams often are... If Coherent is no longer to be
: sold, or developed, I shall have to begin moving my apps to another
: platform perforce... I cannot afford (especially financially) to hope to
: make a go of it on a market that is not a growing market. sigh...

You still could use Coherent as the development platform for your software,
it shouldn't be a problem to re-compile it on any other platform later.
Then you can offer it for more than one platform, which one always should
do anyway. Vsh e.g. is ported to lots of platforms, any SVR3, any SVR4,
AIX, HP-UX, Coherent, SCO, Linux...
--
Udo Munk u...@umunk.GUN.de, CIS: 100021,2515

Fred Butzen

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Feb 4, 1995, 9:40:00 AM2/4/95
to
> Damn!

> I'm still on an earlier release of 4, and wanted to upgrade to
>the .10 release, as well as getting 3 1/2 disks (I don't have
>a 5 1/4 drive any more after getting a new machine).

> Does any know if it would be legaly possible to copy Coherent now
>MWC no longer exist ?
>
> Anyone have a copy of the latest release on 3 1/2 and would like to make a
>copy for me ? (Since I'm a registered user and a member of the MWC
>club, it doesn't look too illegal to me.)

Technically, it *is* illegal; however, as a registered 4.2.05 customer,
you were entitled to a 4.2.10 update, and an update to 4.2.12 (the
floppy-tape update) for free. Therefore, I don't see anyone getting bent
out of shape if you were to simply acquire them from a source other than
MWC.
--

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Fred Butzen ... Technical Writer/Programmer ... but...@mcs.com

Jason Bacon

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Feb 4, 1995, 7:31:43 PM2/4/95
to
>I have had Coh on my system begining with version 3.1. But i just
>joined the CLUB ;-))
>Being a new club member i would like to purchas The Coherent GNU
>Tools pack, COHware Volumes 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. ;-)
>
>MWC make us a last offer, EAsy Money
>
> <------ ig...@crl.com ------>
> igor raven
> <- ig...@mercury.sfsu.edu ->
>
>

Most of the Cohware stuff is already on silver. And the GNU license states
that noone can legally restrict the distribution of GNU products
and their sources. I've wondered in the past how MWC got around this
to market the GNU tools without including the source. I think
what they were really marketing was printed manuals and support.

Does anyone know of a reason not to post all the GNU tools on the net?
While MWC was around, I think it would have been bad manners, but
what's to stop it now?

-JB
--

------------------------
ba...@miller.cs.uwm.edu
------------------------

mark anthony kolesar

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Feb 4, 1995, 11:30:29 PM2/4/95
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In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.950204...@eskimo.com> Erich Koehler <mtn...@eskimo.com> writes:
<-------------->
>I hope that the capabilities of Coherent can be further developed. I
>believe that this would most likely occur if the source code is placed in the
>public domain. However, I understand the desire of MWC to benefit financially
>by the sale of the rights to the source code and documentation.


Its ironic, giving the source to registered users is the one thing that would
have given MWC a fighting chance to survive. This would have developed a
stronger feeling of community for Coherent users and given MWC access to the
kind of manpower that makes the Free Nixes so dynamic. Making it public domain
was not really necessary, just making it available to registered users would
have done the trick.

Since they didn't do this when it would have made a difference for the company,
I don't see them doing it now.

Mark

Dexter McNeil

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Feb 5, 1995, 12:19:41 AM2/5/95
to
As a user of Coherent since version 3.2.1A, I'm sorry for the demise of MWC and the state of limbo that it puts Coherent into. I want to thank you Fred for the excellent manual that you put together. I never realized that the documentation was the work of only one person! And a big note of thanks to all of the programmers and technical staff that put in all of the time to build the product. Of more immediate concern to me is the fact that I had been waiting patiently for version 4.2.14 and the updated Device Driver Kit. I purchased the DDK with ver 4.2.05, and was upgraded by Addison to version 4.2.10, with the floppy tape driver disk bringing me up to 4.2.12. At the time that I inquired as to the floppy tape driver, I was told that the DDK was not available for 4.2.12, but that an updated DDK would be available when 4.2.14 shipped. :-( So, since I paid for the DDK to 4.2.05, and MWC would have sent the 4.2.10 DDK to me if I hadn't asked for the floppy tape driver which made my system into 4.2.12, (that is assuming, of course, that there is/was a DDK for 4.2.10), is there anyone who could provide me with a copy of the 4.2.10 DDK? I'll happily back up one version to have DDK capability. And on a second DDK note, I would also like to acquire the DDK for 3.2.1A. I understand that it was still available as of last November. Anyone want to sell one? If/when the assets of MWC are liquidated, I'd be interested in knowing what becomes of the source code and rights to Coherent. Regards, Dexter dex...@panix.com

Fred Butzen

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Feb 5, 1995, 1:19:52 PM2/5/95
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jk...@kamet.ccs.neu.edu (Jagadeesh Krishnamurthy Venugopal) writes:

[snip news of MWC's demise]

>That and another factor being GNU and the GPL is effectively killing
>competition in the PC Unix clone industry. For good or for bad, the Unix-
>PC clone industry has almost ceased to exist. Everything is free now and the
>only money to be made is in applications or support.

To paraphrase Milton Friedman, there's no such thing as a free operating
system. Creating an operating system requires an investment of equipment
and programmer time. With Coherent, a commercial package, those costs were
borne by the purchasers. With Linux and other "free" operating systems,
those costs are borne by the programmers. You may consider that improvement.
I think it's a mixed blessing.

Erich Koehler

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Feb 4, 1995, 9:12:58 PM2/4/95
to

With the increasing availability of free Unix clones, the possibility
of MWC's demise had crossed my mind and now it is reality. Had we
users been forewarned, we might have been afforded an opportunity to buy
those other Coherent products that we were putting off before it was too
late.

I am a satisfied user of Coh 4.2_10 and X-Windows and I have increased my
knowledge of Unix tremendously, aided by the very comprehensive Coherent
manuals. My thanks to those who worked to produce them and to the technical
support personnel who contributed to this newsgroup and to the archives.

I hope that the capabilities of Coherent can be further developed. I
believe that this would most likely occur if the source code is placed in the
public domain. However, I understand the desire of MWC to benefit financially
by the sale of the rights to the source code and documentation.

I will endeavor to add my modest efforts at porting programs to Silver.

Erich Koehler
mtn...@eskimo.com

Joan Tine

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Feb 5, 1995, 5:37:05 PM2/5/95
to
Fred Butzen (but...@MCS.COM) wrote:

: jk...@kamet.ccs.neu.edu (Jagadeesh Krishnamurthy Venugopal) writes:

: [snip news of MWC's demise]

: >That and another factor being GNU and the GPL is effectively killing
: >competition in the PC Unix clone industry. For good or for bad, the Unix-
: >PC clone industry has almost ceased to exist. Everything is free now and the
: >only money to be made is in applications or support.

: To paraphrase Milton Friedman, there's no such thing as a free operating
: system. Creating an operating system requires an investment of equipment
: and programmer time. With Coherent, a commercial package, those costs were
: borne by the purchasers. With Linux and other "free" operating systems,
: those costs are borne by the programmers. You may consider that improvement.
: I think it's a mixed blessing.

The analogy breaks down. The _first_ operating systems were research-
intensive high-ticket investments. But as more trained programmers
appear with experience in an established field of development, the
initial costs can be regarded as fully absorbed, and no longer
existing. To _reproduce_ an artifact is to incur largly only
variable costs, particularly in fields where all the fixed costs
were research, and overhead is negligable. So, other than the
programmers' time...which they chose to expend as "hobby" time,
"free" operating systems are appropriately described, and as the
beneficiaries of years of evolutionary development within the industry,
they have every reason to be superior to previous "commercial"
products. And so it has been.

Joan

--
the Right Disreputable, Lady Wombat.
Priscilla Asagiri Fashions in Fiberglass

Christopher Hilton

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Feb 6, 1995, 10:52:19 AM2/6/95
to
In article <3h169f$o...@uwm.edu>, Jason Bacon <ba...@miller.cs.uwm.edu> wrote:
>Most of the Cohware stuff is already on silver. And the GNU license states
>that noone can legally restrict the distribution of GNU products
>and their sources. I've wondered in the past how MWC got around this
>to market the GNU tools without including the source. I think
>what they were really marketing was printed manuals and support.
>
>Does anyone know of a reason not to post all the GNU tools on the net?
>While MWC was around, I think it would have been bad manners, but
>what's to stop it now?
>

There was nothing to stop it before except politeness. Now it makes no
sense not to put the contents of the packages onto silver. Only the
operating system and the utilities are under Mark Williams Copyright
(Probably with som exceptions, YMMV). Most of the Cohware and all of
the Gnu Tools/compilers etc. can be posted to silver. I'm not sure
about the X Distribution. One more thing, the installation programs on
the various disk are still property of MWC so you cannot dd the Disk
images into files and then put those on silver.

The reason that the Gnu stuff didn't ship as source is because most
wanted people didn't want the source. The Gnu Copyleft only says that
you have to make the source code available, not that you have to ship
it with the binary product.

C.

Udo Munk

unread,
Feb 6, 1995, 11:40:37 AM2/6/95
to
Igor C. Raven (ig...@crl2.crl.com) wrote:
: On 3 Feb 1995 ba...@bbs.ug.eds.com wrote:
[...]
: > Would it be possible to still get the latest revision? I am still running
: > 4.2.05. I plan to continue using COHERENT and some software requires the
: > 4.2.10 update.
: > Thanks.

As long as no other company buys the right to distribute the product it's not
possible to get the update legaly.

: I have had Coh on my system begining with version 3.1. But i just


: joined the CLUB ;-))
: Being a new club member i would like to purchas The Coherent GNU
: Tools pack, COHware Volumes 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. ;-)

If someone wants GNU tools I'll offer them my self, both, GNU tools and
GNU development tools on floppy disks or 1/4" DC6150 tape, ready to run
install binary distributions and sources. I need to charge you for the
media and the shipping and I cannot accept credit cards as a privat
person of course.
Sorry, I have no COHware and Xware floppy disks, but I could cut a tape
from the COH archive on my public accessable UUCP system too. Sorry,
no floppy disks, I don't want to copy floppy disks until the end of my life.
Also I don't have a floppy tape drive, SCSI drive only and I'm willing to
buy one, when enough people are asking for the stuff on floppy tape.

Robert Jung

unread,
Feb 6, 1995, 3:02:00 PM2/6/95
to

In article <9502011050.AA27345.V1.5#mwc.com>,
cohe...@vma.cc.nd.edu wrote to all:

CO>It is my sad duty to announce that Mark Williams Company has gone out
CO>of business. There are many reasons for this decision. Some are due
CO>to mistakes that we have made, some to changing business conditions;
CO>but the bottom line is that we must shut our doors.
[more sad reality deleted]

Bob,

although I don't use Coherent anymore, I did try it out once, upgraded
it and all and followed a few newsgroups here and on CI$, where Udo
did a great job. All this is sad news. I seem to wonder, what
happens to such good employees, once they are out of a job?

Well, I wish all of you the best of luck and hope you all make it. I
also hope there is a good side to this tragedy somehow.

* 1st 2.00b #2037 * It knocks me out of my socks !!!


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: rober...@active.ch (Robert Jung)
This message was processed by the Active-Net Gateway.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Udo Munk

unread,
Feb 6, 1995, 4:13:42 PM2/6/95
to
Jason Bacon (ba...@miller.cs.uwm.edu) wrote:
[...]
: Most of the Cohware stuff is already on silver. And the GNU license states

: that noone can legally restrict the distribution of GNU products
: and their sources. I've wondered in the past how MWC got around this
: to market the GNU tools without including the source. I think
: what they were really marketing was printed manuals and support.

MWC never got around this, sources always were available. MWC sold
distribution disks in Coherent install format with ready to run binaries
and online documentation and support. No printed manuals for the GNU stuff,
you even will not get a dvi to ps converter from me, people should buy them
from the FSF, the printed manuals from them are in good quality and affordable.

: Does anyone know of a reason not to post all the GNU tools on the net?

There is no reason, it only seems that nobody is willing to pay for
uploading 150MB to the net. No, I'm not interested to pay that for you
guys. I often enough said that, send a check ($200 would be appropiate)
and I'll send you a tape with all sources and binaries. You are free to do
whatever you want with it, upload it somewhere or sell it for $1000 per copy.

: While MWC was around, I think it would have been bad manners, but


: what's to stop it now?

Nothing, if you want it on the net then upload it, but don't demand it from
others to do this for you.

Richard Lindner

unread,
Feb 7, 1995, 8:17:53 AM2/7/95
to
Dmitry Gringauz (dmi...@netcom.com) wrote:
: Christine Maxwell (ka...@crl.com) wrote:
: : Bill Nadvornik (bi...@GEORGE.PSYCH.WRIGHT.EDU) wrote:
: : : Well that sucks!

: : : "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way."
: : : --Jessica Rabbit

: : : On Wed, 1 Feb 1995, Robert Swartz wrote:

: : : > It is my sad duty to announce that Mark Williams Company has gone out
: : : > of business. There are many reasons for this decision. Some are due
: : : > to mistakes that we have made, some to changing business conditions;
: : : > but the bottom line is that we must shut our doors.

: : Hmmm... PLEASE tell me this is a bad bad joke...

: Sadly, this is not a joke.

ok - so mwc really have gone belly up - sad! i used coh from v3.0 back in
about '89 until i moved to another unix variant a year or so ago. sure, the
waiting for updates and fixes was frustrating at times, and it was a rather
disgruntled customer that eventually gave coherent away after giving up on
the unfilled promises of bigger and better things. but using coherent taught
me a lot about unix - the documentation was excellent and the support from
the technical personnel was far superior to what was available from the big
boys in the area. i doubt that the switch to a more fully featured unix would
have been as painless without having first learnt the basics via coh.

so i'm particularly sorry to read this news - best wishes to everyone at what
was mwc - and thanks for the education.

--
Richard Lindner - System Manager UMPAU
r...@gondwana.aw.latrobe.edu.au PO Box 1555, Wodonga, Vic. 3689, Oz
r...@spectre.apana.org.au Ph: 060 562072 (bh) 060 208813 (ah)

John Woods

unread,
Feb 7, 1995, 1:33:57 PM2/7/95
to
"Igor C. Raven" <ig...@crl9.crl.com> writes:
>The above statement from MWC proves that management is still Firmly
>Out of Control.

The above statement proves that USENET still hasn't changed.

>Even after a history of mismanagement and failure to listen to the
>technical side of the house, they are not willing to cut any slack
>to the abandoned. As orphans we now have no rights.

It is quite likely that they do not have the right to simply give away
the sources to Coherent, even if they wanted to. Such a move would have
to be approved by the board of directors, and as long as there is even the
*possibility* that they could sell the sources to some street crazy for $1.00
they could not legally cheat MWC's shareholders and creditors of that $1.00.

>A sale to SCO would not be all bad.

It might even be possible, even with MWC closed. See above.

>Cut a deal with FSF for a tax right off.

You mean a "write-off", right? Since it is rare for profitable companies
to close, they presumably have no earnings to balance with such a write-off.

Christopher Hilton

unread,
Feb 7, 1995, 2:22:26 PM2/7/95
to
In article <95020...@umunk.gun.de>, Udo Munk <u...@umunk.GUN.de> wrote:
>There is no reason, it only seems that nobody is willing to pay for
>uploading 150MB to the net. No, I'm not interested to pay that for you
>guys. I often enough said that, send a check ($200 would be appropiate)
>and I'll send you a tape with all sources and binaries. You are free to do
>whatever you want with it, upload it somewhere or sell it for $1000 per copy.
>
>: While MWC was around, I think it would have been bad manners, but

>: what's to stop it now?
>
>Nothing, if you want it on the net then upload it, but don't demand it from
>others to do this for you.

Udo,

If you are willing to put together a DC-6250 tape of the stuff that
you think would be appropriate. I have a 56kb line at work that's
unloaded on weekends.

Godfrey Nix

unread,
Feb 7, 1995, 6:34:47 PM2/7/95
to
It explains why I could not get thro' to MWC the other day. Cost me a
couple of transatlantic phone calls just to get message 'the office is
closed'

I am still in the market for the device driver kit and GNU compiler.
Tried to get gcc from silver but with so many hops I kept getting
thrown off (timed out?) so eventuall spent two hours ftp'ing the source
from ic.ac.uk only to find I could not get it to compile without much
editing (sob sob)

So how do I now get gcc, etc.? The UK distributor of Coherent seems to
have closed down also - I get a message to call USA number.

I am aiming to set up a BBS and offer full source of gcc, but without
gcc I cannot get some of the source I have to compile!

Any (reasonable) suggestions or offers?

--
Godfrey Nix
' The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens ' Baha'i Faith

Udo Munk

unread,
Feb 8, 1995, 2:00:44 AM2/8/95
to
Christopher Hilton (chi...@MCS.COM) wrote:
[...]
: There was nothing to stop it before except politeness. Now it makes no

: sense not to put the contents of the packages onto silver. Only the
: operating system and the utilities are under Mark Williams Copyright
: (Probably with som exceptions, YMMV). Most of the Cohware and all of
: the Gnu Tools/compilers etc. can be posted to silver. I'm not sure
: about the X Distribution. One more thing, the installation programs on
: the various disk are still property of MWC so you cannot dd the Disk
: images into files and then put those on silver.

All the freeware of course still is freeware, regradless if it was
protected by the GNU copyleft or not, the moral end ethics of the
former MWC programmers was pretty good with that. But it wouldn't be
OK to dd disk images to silver, the install script for the GNU stuff
e.g. is copyrigthed by MWC, I wrote that while I was payed by MWC. One
could put the source archives of the freeware stuff on silver without any
problems, it's just that those without working GNU C binaries cannot
compile GNU C self, someone needs to make a new binary distribution
of GNU C at least.
The X distribution self was build by Ready to Run Software and MWC
payed for that. The package also includes manual pages written by
Fred, which are property of MWC. This package for sure cannot be
posted to silver.

: The reason that the Gnu stuff didn't ship as source is because most
: wanted people didn't want the source. The Gnu Copyleft only says that
: you have to make the source code available, not that you have to ship
: it with the binary product.

The GNU stuff shiped as sources, but the sources were a seperate distribution
and the sources weren't included by default in a binary distribution. The
sources for the GNU compiler package alone needs 12 floppy disks or so,
additional to the 5 floppies for the binary distribution and distributing
both for the price of the binary distribution wasn't possible.

Steve Ness

unread,
Feb 11, 1995, 7:48:28 PM2/11/95
to
j...@proteon.com (John Woods) wrote:

> It is quite likely that they do not have the right to simply give away
> the sources to Coherent, even if they wanted to. Such a move would have
> to be approved by the board of directors, and as long as there is even the
> *possibility* that they could sell the sources to some street crazy for $1.00
> they could not legally cheat MWC's shareholders and creditors of that $1.00.
>
> >A sale to SCO would not be all bad.
>
> It might even be possible, even with MWC closed. See above.
>
> >Cut a deal with FSF for a tax right off.
>
> You mean a "write-off", right? Since it is rare for profitable companies
> to close, they presumably have no earnings to balance with such a write-off.

MWC is privately held, it has no shareholders and no board of
directors. At this moment, since he has not yet declared bankrupcy,
Bob Swartz can do whatever he likes, including giving the sources away
(right....) or selling them to the highest bidder. If/when he does
declare bankrupcy, the disposition of the assets (few) to the
creditors (many) might pass to the bankrupcy trustee. And yes,
tax write-offs are of little use when there is no black ink in sight.

--- Steve Ness --- 415-821-1235 --- san...@sirius.com ---

rbe...@delphi.com

unread,
Feb 19, 1995, 12:27:29 AM2/19/95
to
I am sure I speak for many users when I say we will miss Coherent. I learned
Unix on it & did a lot of my graduate work on it. It was the 1st of the "
"affordible" unix's (in terms of cost & hardware). Coherent could still live
on if the source code was posted. It will be interesting to see what happens.


Rich

ka...@putki.kcl.fi

unread,
Feb 21, 1995, 6:30:33 AM2/21/95
to
In article <1995Feb2....@rwsys.wimsey.bc.ca> r...@RWSYS.WIMSEY.BC.CA (RW) writes:

>
> I have a hunch that coherent will continue to be viable because
> there is a base of users and interest.
>
> --Randy

Yes indeed. No doubt we'll soon hear that Elvis has been sighted using
Coherent on his laptop.

- kalle

H.P.Heidinger

unread,
Feb 23, 1995, 1:39:50 PM2/23/95
to
In article <KALLE.95F...@putki.kcl.fi>, <ka...@putki.kcl.fi> wrote:
# In article <1995Feb2....@rwsys.wimsey.bc.ca> r...@RWSYS.WIMSEY.BC.CA (RW) writes:
# > I have a hunch that coherent will continue to be viable because
# > there is a base of users and interest.
[ ... ]
# Yes indeed. No doubt we'll soon hear that Elvis has been sighted using
# Coherent on his laptop.
#
# - kalle

Well Kalle, either you were drunk when you wrote this or some other
state of confusion inflicted you. At most you might have heard, that
somebody were using 'elvis' (the incredible 'vi'-clone) on a laptop
that were running COH' ... ;-)

Regards, Peter
--
#--------- H.P. Heidinger, Steeler Str. 121, 45138 Essen /Germany ----------#
# Call : +49-201-287433 (data/FAX) # E-Mail : h...@hphbbs.ruhr.de #
# A supercomputer is a machine, that runs an endless loop in just 2 seconds #

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