386BSD Participation
Kaleb Keithley
Press 'n' now to avoid more mindless drivel :-)
con...@kaleida.com (J.T. Conklin) writes:
>bj> The "greed" battle for control, or "cold" war begins. 386bsd
>bj> florishes, as real people finally get a chance to participate with
>bj> BSD, something they have waited for ten years for.
>
>I don't see that anyone has had a chance to participate. I am sure
>that lots of people have contributed their work to you, but that is
>not the same as _participation_.
>
I agree with J.T. It seems like the vast majority of "us" weren't "real"
enough to participate. My fledgling attempts to participate were met with
official silence, and unofficial flames from self-important nobodies and
thinly veiled threats. Life's too short to put up with that, and I've got
other things to do too, so if it seems like I didn't try very hard, you're
absolutely right.
If 386BSD is a truly public effort, the coordinators need to make the time
in their busy schedules to do some coordinating. A simple 'yes we need that,
and no one is currently working on it' or 'no, someone else is already on
it, contact them' would suffice. If it's a club, and only members are
allowed to participate, then at least you could have made that clear at
the outset.
It's certainly admirable to release software like 386BSD into the domain
of freely redistributable software. But let's cut through the altruistic
bullshit -- you're being handsomely rewarded for your efforts, both tangibly
and intangibly. DDJ pays for the articles they print. I'd wager the publisher
of "the book" ponied up a healthy advance. Are you counting your royalties
yet -- I doubt you'll be selling as many copies as Jurassic Park? And to
top it all off, you have your place in the sun along with Stallman and
Torvalds.
In the meantime, HURD, Mach BNRSS, and BSD4.4 all ooze closer to reality
at their normal snail-like pace. Linux may reach a state of equalibrium
some day, and there's certainly a whole raft of commercial UNIX products
too.
If you want to cry in your beer in the corner of a bar somewhere, that's
your priviledge and your business. If you want to whine in public about
some wrong that someone has done to you, real or imagined, then take your
snivel rag and go home, because we don't want to hear it.
Just my $0.02 (adjusted for inflation) worth.
--
Kaleb
--
Kaleb Keithley ka...@devvax.jpl.nasa.gov
Carl Zmola
>Press 'n' now to avoid more mindless drivel :-)
Good advice, I wish I had taken it.
>con...@kaleida.com (J.T. Conklin) writes:
>>bj> The "greed" battle for control, or "cold" war begins. 386bsd
>>bj> florishes, as real people finally get a chance to participate with
>>bj> BSD, something they have waited for ten years for.
>>
>>I don't see that anyone has had a chance to participate. I am sure
>>that lots of people have contributed their work to you, but that is
>>not the same as _participation_.
>>
>I agree with J.T. It seems like the vast majority of "us" weren't "real"
>enough to participate. My fledgling attempts to participate were met with
>official silence, and unofficial flames from self-important nobodies and
>thinly veiled threats. Life's too short to put up with that, and I've got
>other things to do too, so if it seems like I didn't try very hard, you're
>absolutely right.
Managing a software project is difficult, especially if you don't
know the capabilities of your contributers before hand. 386BSD has always
been a closed door product. "you contribute your code, and if we can use
it, we will". I like this approach. For me it gives me some stability
(even if there are some bugs), as opposed to Linux or other systems where
there is a patch a week.
>If 386BSD is a truly public effort, the coordinators need to make the time
>in their busy schedules to do some coordinating. A simple 'yes we need that,
>and no one is currently working on it' or 'no, someone else is already on
>it, contact them' would suffice. If it's a club, and only members are
>allowed to participate, then at least you could have made that clear at
>the outset.
I really hope that Bill Jolitz was more polite then you make him out
to be, and I also hope you didn't nag him to death. I've known friendly
systems people (enter your favorite campus support person here)
who would chew your head off if you ask for something to be done in less
then two days. No one is perfect, but there is no reason to flame on the net.
If you don't like it, use a different system.
>It's certainly admirable to release software like 386BSD into the domain
>of freely redistributable software. But let's cut through the altruistic
>bullshit -- you're being handsomely rewarded for your efforts, both tangibly
>and intangibly. DDJ pays for the articles they print. I'd wager the publisher
>of "the book" ponied up a healthy advance. Are you counting your royalties
>yet -- I doubt you'll be selling as many copies as Jurassic Park? And to
>top it all off, you have your place in the sun along with Stallman and
>Torvalds.
Everyone has to make a living, and Giving away your programming
time usually doesn't cut it.
>If you want to cry in your beer in the corner of a bar somewhere, that's
>your priviledge and your business. If you want to whine in public about
>some wrong that someone has done to you, real or imagined, then take your
>snivel rag and go home, because we don't want to hear it.
On the same note, don't expect red carpet treatment, or to even
be acknowledged. People are busy, and some people are especially busy.
It would be nice if they could be courteous, but they have no obligation to.
Dean Souleles
>
>If you want to cry in your beer in the corner of a bar somewhere, that's
>your priviledge and your business. If you want to whine in public about
>some wrong that someone has done to you, real or imagined, then take your
>snivel rag and go home, because we don't want to hear it.
Snivel rag???
>
>Just my $0.02 (adjusted for inflation) worth.
>
Overpriced at half the price (adjusted for inflation).
Dean
--
Dean Souleles dsou...@uccs.jpl.nasa.gov
Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Kaleb Keithley
>
>>Press 'n' now to avoid more mindless drivel :-)
>
> Good advice, I wish I had taken it.
You were warned. Kinda foreshadows the rest of your "rebuttal."
You are hereby warned again. Press 'n' now!
> Managing a software project is difficult,
After 10 years developing software professionally, I always wondered why
I went home exhausted. Now I know why. Thanks for explaining it to me. :-)
>386BSD has always
>been a closed door product.
That doesn't gel with what Bill Jolitz said. He said "...real people were
participating..." I get the impression that you didn't read Bill's post
or mine before firing off your rebuttal.
>I like this approach. For me it gives me some stability
>(even if there are some bugs), as opposed to Linux or other systems where
>there is a patch a week.
Thanks for sharing your opinion. I happen to like the comparative stability
of 386bsd too, if you ignore the patchkits. But we have strayed from the
topic.
> I really hope that Bill Jolitz was more polite then you make him out
>to be, and I also hope you didn't nag him to death.
You assume too much. A trite expression about assumptions comes to mind.
This confirms my suspicion that you didn't really read my post, because
I dind't say anything untoward about Bill in this regard.
> Everyone has to make a living, and Giving away your programming
>time usually doesn't cut it.
Can I quote you on that? :-)
I don't recall anyone twisting Bill or Lynne's arm to release 386BSD. For
whatever reason or reasons, they chose to do it. The martyr routine is
unbecoming.
> People are busy, and some people are especially busy.
>It would be nice if they could be courteous, but they have no obligation to.
Can I quote you on that too?
Mark Sienkiewicz
>kaleb@octopus (Kaleb Keithley) writes:
>
>>Press 'n' now to avoid more mindless drivel :-)
>
>If you don't like it, use a different system.
Emminently reasonable advice!
.. Only problem is: that's what started this flamewar. :)
[ for those who don't remember that far back-- Netbsd was a case of people
going off in a different direction because they didn't "like it". Then
both sides were flamed for Not Cooperating. Now someone is saying
"if you don't like it use a different system". Pretty good, huh? ]
Mark S.
p.s. This has been quite entertaining, but for REAL flameage, go check
out the SCO groups. I hear comp.*.386bsd.* is pretty tame by comparison.. :)
Charles H. Murray
was the USL vs BSDI lawsuit. Weren't we all smug to accuse them of
in fighting and petty bickering.
--
Charles H. Murray "Performing Rocket Science at
Software Engineering Consultant Orbital Sciences Corporation
Breckenridge, Colorado USA Chantilly, Virginia USA"
mur...@hansford.com
Public Account
>Subject: Re: 386BSD Participation
>Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1993 14:58:18 GMT