FidoNet Newsletter, Volume 10, # 52

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Tim Pozar

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Dec 30, 1993, 2:56:55 AM12/30/93
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F I D O N E W S -- Vol.10 No.52 (26-Dec-1993)
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| A newsletter of the | |
| FidoNet BBS community | Published by: |
| _ | |
| / \ | "FidoNews" BBS |
| /|oo \ | +1-519-570-4176 1:1/23 |
| (_| /_) | |
| _`@/_ \ _ | Editors: |
| | | \ \\ | Sylvia Maxwell 1:221/194 |
| | (*) | \ )) | Donald Tees 1:221/192 |
| |__U__| / \// | Tim Pozar 1:125/555 |
| _//|| _\ / | |
| (_/(_|(____/ | |
| (jm) | Newspapers should have no friends. |
| | -- JOSEPH PULITZER |
+----------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
| Submission address: editors 1:1/23 |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet addresses: |
| |
| Sylvia -- m...@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca |
| Donald -- don...@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca |
| Tim -- po...@kumr.lns.com |
| Both Don & Sylvia (submission address) |
| edi...@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| For information, copyrights, article submissions, |
| obtaining copies and other boring but important details, |
| please refer to the end of this file. |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
========================================================================
Table of Contents
========================================================================

1. Editorial..................................................... 2
2. Articles...................................................... 2
The Bible is clear regarding the sin of homosexuality....... 3
An open response to Brendan Keyport......................... 3
To Censor or not to Censor, that is the reply............... 5
A Nasty case of selective amnesia !......................... 6
Merry Christmas, Editors!................................... 13
On-line porn article in Sydney Morning Herald............... 13
Responding to the arcticle by Bryan Price................... 14
New AREA CODES for the UK................................... 15
Original to Jeff Cochran of 1:371/2...@fidonet.org............ 19
Greetings, Editor........................................... 19
3. Fidonews Information.......................................... 20
FidoNews 10-52 Page: 2 26 Dec 1993


========================================================================
Editorial
========================================================================
Another week, another snooze. The battle rages on about
censorship; should we, the editor's, try to turn the snooze into
a nice little sunday afternoon read? Seeing as it is the day
after Christmass, and I am feeling mellow, I'd suggest the
following compromise.

For those that want us to edit out all the foul language, we
will refuse to publish any piece that is devoid of merit, whilst
also using foul language. Also on your behalf, I will mention
to everybody that good use of language usually makes a better
arguement. There is not a lot of point in attempting to make a
point in such a way that your audience refuses to listen because
they are so offended (Or bored for that matter).

To those whom wish unfettered expression, let me add the
corollory ... if a the piece has something to say, we will print
it unaltered. And I will also remind you that we will continue
to find merit in just about everything.

I was thinking yesterday about being a kid. I was
remembering how much I wanted to grow up so that I would know
all the answers and always be right.

Now I am forty-seven. I was starting to get annoyed that I
still had not grown up to the point where I knew something for
sure ... but then I met Max on the net. Now I have a new
ambition. I figure that by the time I grow old, I might know
what questions to ask.

The snooze has been getting a tad narrow lately. It is a new
year, how about some good news for a change? I'd like to hear
from some of our more unusual installations, perhaps from some
of the countries that are less heard from? What is it like to
run a BBS in "_______"? What's happening out there?

re: the compromises

sure, we could publish stuff with "merit" unaltered,
but we still can't publish anything "altered". Hey, look
what happened when we tried to publish a translation of a
spanish poem. One word off-meaning, and the whole thing made
less sense.
========================================================================
Articles
========================================================================
FidoNews 10-52 Page: 3 26 Dec 1993


The Bible is clear regarding the sin of homosexuality.
Steve Winter
FidoNet 1:18/98

Here are both old testament and new testament scriptures that
document that homosexuality is totally incompatable with
true Christianity or true Judaism.

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with
womankind: it [is] abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a
woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely
be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:
for even their women did change the natural use into that which
is against nature:

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of
the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men
working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that
recompence of their error which was meet.

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their]
knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things
which are not convenient;

I Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the
kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor EFFEMINATE, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

I hope I've been "exhaustive" enough here with this brief Bible study.
It does seem from these verses that God does have strong feelings
concerning certain matters....
I encourage anyone deceived into the sewers of homosexuality to
repent and find a true Acts 2:38 Church. The sin is fatal, but it
is not unforgivable.

Steve Winter PreRapture BBS 919-286-3606 USR-H16/V.32b
Moderator/founder HOLY_BIBLE (The Wholly Bible Echo)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

An open response to Brendan Keyport.

Shawn McMahon
1:19/34
An open response to Brendan Keyport in Fidonews 10/51.

Brendan raised some completely uninteresting points, that I
will nevertheless address.

FidoNews 10-52 Page: 4 26 Dec 1993

--quoting Brendan Keyport--
1) It's their job, let them do it. Look at this: Without these folks, There
--end quote--

This in an article detailing the restrictions under which he'd
like them to work.

--quoting Brendan Keyport--
2) The Editor(s) should only edit to meet up with accepted standards
for publication. Accepted standards as far as I'm concerned is (based on my
local newspapers' standards):
a) No Obsenity (As Accepted by the public in general)
--end quote--

All I have to say to this is: fuck you. Who appointed you the
arbiter of my vocabulary? BTW, read up on your Constitutional law;
your local paper has this restriction by choice, not by law.

The Supreme Court is very clear on this; your local paper can use
any words they choose, and there's nothing you can do about it except
cancel your subscription.

--quoting Brendan--
b) Written as center to the issue as possible (No one sided articles)
--end quote--

I'm sorry, I must have missed the part where you illustrated the other
side; your whole article appeared to only cover one side. Which is
the usual process in an article of opinion.

--quoting Brendan--
d) Assure spelling and grammer match the 6th Grade level.
--end quote--

This from a guy who misspelled "obscenity" and "grammar."

--quoting Brendan--
e) NO CENSORSHIP, unless there is valid reasoning as outlined
above, and in that case, only editing to meet guidelines.
--end quote--

I.E. No censorship, except censorship approved by Brendan Keyport.

Brendan, if you want to censor Fidonews, go ahead; on YOUR copy.

Leave *MY* copy the hell alone; I neither desire nor require your
"help."

You got one thing right in your whole article; you emphasized
"NO CENSORSHIP."

Too bad you repudiated your position immediately after the comma.

Fidonews is predominantly by and for adults; and you cannot restrict
the freedom of speech of adults just because an occasional child
FidoNews 10-52 Page: 5 26 Dec 1993

might read words to which *YOU* object.

This isn't just my opinion; it's the LAW.

Also be advised that the law considers "obscenity" and "profanity"
to be two related, but SEPERATE, things. It has since at least 1712.

C.F. Butler v. Michigan, Roth v. United States, Alberts v. California,
and others to which I'll be glad to refer you upon request. Also
read FCC v. Pacifica Foundation, where they discuss the differences
between forums to which one can be exposed by accident, and forums
one must CHOOSE to read. Fidonews is an example of the latter.

Thank goodness the Constitution protects us from people like you,
Brendan. Oppression in the name of reasonableness is no prettier.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

To Censor or not to Censor, that is the reply.....

By Lucas Aarons, Sysop, The Road Kill Cafe,
Portland Oregon, USA 1:105/1003 (MedievalNet RC 180:14/0)

To Censor or Not to Censor...

In Snooze 1051 Brendan Keyport said:

>My Viewpoint on the Editor's duties.
>By Brendan Keyport, 1:138/185 (SuperNet 43:1240/401,
>Worldnet 62:420/20)

<snip>

>Here is my ViewPoint on the editor's duties as relating to FIDONEWS:

<snip>

>2) The Editor(s) should only edit to meet up with accepted standards
>for publication. Accepted standards as far as I'm concerned is
>(based on my local newspapers' standards):
>a) No Obsenity (As Accepted by the public in general)

What public? I think that if you truly check with the public of the
Snooze,You will find that the majority could care less about a few
typical words.

Who are the censorship freaks kidding?
Ask EVERY single child you know above the age of 9 whether they know
what word Shit means. I would place odds you will be searching a long
time to find one who honestly has no idea.

>b) Written as center to the issue as possible (No one sided articles)

WHAT? In Fido there is no middle ground! :-) Do you want to eliminate
FidoNews 10-52 Page: 6 26 Dec 1993

all controversy or something? In FIGHT*O*NET? Not likely!

>c) Make your point clearly.

But that would eliminate some people from submitting to the snooze...
As an example, First you say:

>1) It's their job, let them do it. Look at this: Without these folks,
>There may not even be a FIDONEWS to read. Imagine FIDONET without
>FIDONEWS...

And then you post these "wonderful" rules suggesting how they should
accomplish their job..... What is *YOUR* point?

> d) Assure spelling and grammer match the 6th Grade level.
> (6th grade level is where reading is easiest for most folks)

If I care to hold discourse at an elevated educational plateau, then I
am obviously attempting to elucidate an idea to a personage whom has
promoted beyond grade school.

> e) NO CENSORSHIP, unless there is valid reasoning as outlined
> above, and in that case, only editing to meet guidelines.

You call that NO CENSORSHIP????????? HA!
Ma'am, I beg to differ, No Censorship means NO meddling in
the submissions.

The only "meddling" that should be done, is in formatting the text.
And then only to fit it into a single screen wide column.
I aplaud the editors of the Snooze for their tireless efforts to make
sure that the Snooze is indeed, a great freedom paper.
Thank you.
"Skywalker"
Lucas Aarons
Sysop of The Road Kill Cafe BBS, Portland Oregon USA (EUA)
FidoNet 1:105/1003
Medieval Net RC 180:14/0


----------------------------------------------------------------------

A Nasty case of selective amnesia !
From: Keith Wassell (2:440/1)

I hesitate to increase the bandwidth on the subject of Region
25, but I've just read Keith Wassell's apologia for GeoNets, and
feel I cannot let some of his comments pass:

KW > REORGANISATION - WHO IS FOOLING WHO

Indeed!

Absolutely !

FidoNews 10-52 Page: 7 26 Dec 1993

KW> However, This has caused a 'Snowball' effect in the UK, with less and
KW> less emphasis on Policy adherence. For instance, it is now impossible
KW> to make a policy complaint in the UK, as there is no way to uphold it.

>It is rare for a Policy complaint, but that has more to do with the
>bankrupt RC & ZC's (and even some NC's), who act out of self-interest
>rather than acting for the benefit of all. Nets that are not
>completely geographically organised do not prevent Policy complaints
>from being upheld.

That wasn't the point and you know it. The point was that Nobody here
can use Policy to uphold their complaint, beacuse nobody will follow it
period. Breakdown of Law and Order !

>GeoNets permit the power-mongers to play their games at everyone
>else's expense, because an unscrupulous NC now has the power to deny
>someone membership of FidoNet for the wrong reasons. The fact is that
>under GeoNets a prospective sysop has only one net he can join, and
>if the NC refuses him a nodenumber for any reason, he is denied
>communication.

What a load of utter hogwash. Do you think such sysop or potential
sysop will only talk to one person. Who are you trying to fool.

> Yes, avenues of appeal exist, but how many
>*prospective* sysops know the ropes enough to take advantage of them,
>let alone win his case if he's been treated unfairly. (What is more,
>a prospective sysop is nobody according to Policy, and he has no
>rights under policy whatsoever).

Says who.... If you are ZMH compliant, and send a Fido netmail
request to the local host, Policy says you will be given a node
number. Anyone care to disagree.

>In every issue, the pages of
>FidoNews are littered with cases of sysops with a lot of experience
>who have been unable to gain redress via a policy complaint when they
>knew Policy back-to-front and were right, simply because the *C
>structure tend to close ranks when threatened. RC's tend to support
>NC's whatever the rights of the case, and, let's face it, an NC is
>easily going to be able to dress up his spurious objection to a
>prospective sysop in plausible language.

You live in the sad, clandestine world of cliques and social
nets Mr Clark. Join us in removing the powermongers and empire
builders. It is your own stupidity in not being able to see
through the smokescreen being cast by them 'In the interests of
freedom'. Even now more evidence is coming about to the effect
that the big 4 hosts in the UK have been treating people like
mushrooms !

>If geographical nets are not enforced, however, and a sysop is
>refused a nodenumber on spurious grounds, he can simply apply to
>another net.

FidoNews 10-52 Page: 8 26 Dec 1993

What does that gain ?

>If accepted there, he is now in a far better position
>from which to pursue a policy complaint against the original
>offending NC, and is likely to have the support and advice of members
>of his net.

Ha ... you and I know once in, its quickly forgotten !. The Bad egg
escapes again !!

KW> Indeed, it has lead to situations where certain NC's will try to
KW> avoid taking a node because of their 'Persuasions' or 'Personality'.
KW> So much for the level playing field where anyone can join regardless
KW> of race, creed, sexual persuasion etc.....

>I think very few people would agree with any NC refusing a node
>admittance on any those grounds, but that is really a completely
>different question to the *node* having freedom of choice.

You are now ouside the bounds of Fidonet policy !. Policy defines
the conditions/constraints of Fidonet membership, Not Joe Public !

>What about
>a solution whereby an NC was obliged to accept an compliant
>application from someone within his notional area, but would have the
>option of accepting a compliant application from someone outside his
>area. The NC has little freedom of choice where someone in his area
>is concerned, but the rights of a prospective sysop are better
>protected.

They are ??? so some people can force their way in, whilst others may
get refused..... Why would anyone want this 'Choosy' alternative ?

> I'll go further, as many in R25 have suggested: What about
>a compromise whereby existing nodes could move back to their local
>net if they wished or stay where they were, but new nodes would be
>directed to their local net. Given the exponential growth of FidoNet
>(until the Zone 2 power games, that is), this would probably mean
>that R25 was 95% "GeoNet" within a very short space of time.

What is wrong with 100% geonet, as FIDONET REGION 25 now is ?

>Once again, the duty imposed on an NC is a completely different
>question to the ability of a node to choose.

Why does the node need a choice, if ALL networks are equal ?

Are you trying to say all networks are equal, but some are more
equal than others ..... Sad indeed !. Wouldn't be funny if we
then had an NC of origin other than 'White skinned'. Bet we'd
see HUNDREDS of defections to other nets under your system, as
the bigots expressed their 'freedom'.

KW> IMHO, selective entry into networks is not desirable. The only way to
KW> get a good and balanced mix is for people to be spread evenly across
FidoNews 10-52 Page: 9 26 Dec 1993

KW> the networks, and Geonets provides this. Its not good for the future
KW> of Fidonet for people to become polarised within networks. What
KW> happens when all the Fascists go into one net; All the Catholics into
KW> another.

>That doesn't exist, and not imposing Geonets does not make it
>remotely likely that it will. Is it really good for FidoNet (whatever
>Policy thinks of the democratic principle) for a few NC's, the RC and
>the ZC to force something on the sysops of a region, which only a few
>people actually want, many oppose violently, and which results in a
>large section of that Region disappearing from the worldwide
>nodelist? I hardly think that is what Policy wants.

I'm sorry Oliver, no matter how much you sensationalise on the point
that you have been downtrodden, the only explaination for this is
whinge is that you read more into your node number & network membership
than what it is, i.e an address to send/recive e-mail.

KW> The Reorganisation will smash down these barriers of 'Selectivity'
KW> that have built up. There will be howls of protest at this you can be
KW> assured but its TRUE !.

>Documented examples of prospective nodes refused admittance to their
>local net on non-technical grounds please... I don't know of a single
>one. Even if Keith can come up with a couple of them in the past few
>years, to read the paragraph above you'd think it was happening 3
>times a week.

OK. Lets take Tony Miller, refused access to a net on the grounds
he did not run on a PC. Lets take Phil Boorman.. Told that the net
he applied to was 'full', and the second one didn't even bother to
reply to his netmail. Lets take Michael Pereira, who was booted out
to soothe the then RC's sensitivities about adult networks, and, when
re-admitted by an NC who felt he had been wrong, was subjected to an
orchestrated campaign by the 'Moral brigade' until he was removed
again.

These are just a few that have come to light. Rest assured where
some come to light, there are others that will be missed.

Like the NC who reserves the right to decline people who he thinks
run 'silly systems' and polices the content of what boards can and
cannot have on their file/mail bases within his net.

Like the fact Mr Boorman stated in a reply in region 25 echo ' I thought
it was common knowledge some of the nets were full '. Full with a possible
9999 node numbers in them. Pah !

I did not say it say it was every week.... But its there !

>Come to that, why has Keith not helped those wronged
>prospective nodes from pursuing policy complaints from these
>"selective" NC's?

Beacuse, the matters have only come to light after a period of time !
FidoNews 10-52 Page: 10 26 Dec 1993

granted except in the case of MP.

> The fact is that [1] it is very rare for anything
>like that to happen (and I agree it should never happen),

so therefore we should try to cover for it !

> [2] Geonets
>will not prevent it from happening (Policy states *now* that the
>grounds for refusing a nodenumber should be technical ones and if the
> *C structure won't protect wronged nodes *now*, I really cannot see
>what difference enforced Geonets for existing nodes is going to
>make),

You again make the point for me, now the ' Never mind, forget that pratt
I'll give you a nodenumber' option is gone, The *C structure will have
to police itself better !

>and [3] Geonets reduces the options and rights of someone
>wronged in this fashion in that they are not free to seek a
>node-number elsewhere.

But via ANY other NC, as they have always seeken to do before they will
be able to get help. (unless NC No 2 says sod off not my problem, in which
case he is long due for replacement too !)

KW> There will be elections for NC's and RC again within region 25. Its just
KW> there are a few wrongs to be sorted, and Geonets is a means to that end.

>On the contrary, it's a clear attempt to restrict the ability of the
>"grunt" sysop to stand up to a bunch of unscrupulous *C's who want to
>concentrate very considerable power in their hands, power which
>Policy does not intend them to have.

In what way does it give them power .... OK if all 19 UK NC's are
corrupt, then we do have a problem !. I think not somehow......

Its a clear attempt to get rid of reasons for net membership other than
to be able to send/receive mail.

AND its a clear attempt to MAKE these abuses stand out. If you cannot see
that THEN YOU _ARE_ STUPID !

>KW> Within the light of the abuses highlighted above,

>What abuses? Keith hasn't given a shred of evidence that there has
>been a single genuine case of abuse.

As Above 8-).

KW> (and here is the REAL admission 8-))

Comes as no surprise to *anyone* in R25...

It doesn't, you surprise me !
FidoNews 10-52 Page: 11 26 Dec 1993


KW> Some people were delighted, others were non committal, others said No
KW> way, and some were just downright rude !.

>I can count the people who are publicly delighted with Geonets on the
>fingers of 2 hands.

You LIAR !

>A lot of people were non-committal, because the
>changes wouldn't directly affect them. The size of the people who
>were against can be judged by the numbers in the Classic 25 nodelist!

All of which you claim to have ASKED before their node numbers
were placed within, and we know of two already who were not
consulted

>Some of the main people who have resorted to bad language over the
>past 6 months have been the arch-proponents of Geonets such as Peter
>Burnett and Keith Wassell!

So what as to the language we used. You SNOB ! some of the insults
in cleverly worded college language coming from your side of the
fence have been far more sneering, callous, and downright insulting
than just being told to F**K OFF ! (Shock horror).

>A region-wide vote was organised on
>whether or not to submit a proposed local Policy for R25 to the IC,
>and whilst the turnout was not spectacular it was larger than any
>recent RC election, and the vote was massively (over 85% I seem to
>remember) in favour of submitting a local policy for adoption which
>would have made the enforcement of Geonets unnecessary because of
>telco condition in the UK.

This policy was submitted to the ZC and IC, the latter turned it down
as well as the former as unacceptable, as it 'Put itself above Fidonet
policy'.

The telco condition was also show to be sham too !

All it showed, was a vocal minority wished to go on ignoring policy !

KW> culminating in the unpleasant spectacle of RC25 reduced to the level
KW> of telling certain people to 'Fuck off' in public echomail.

>Peter Burnett has been doing that a lot longer than the past few
>months! :-)

Where... Lets have your evidence of this DONE IN PUBLIC ! again you
are lying to support your case and its getting you NOWHERE !!!

KW> This, it must be pointed out, occurred after there was an election in
KW> NET 258, where it had been pointed out that if a candidate outside
KW> the NET258 Geo-catchment area won the election he would not be
KW> appointed NC. In the event that is what happened.
FidoNews 10-52 Page: 12 26 Dec 1993


>...and *STILL* the RC won't take the hint as to how deeply unpopular his
>actions are...

Policy COMPLIANT actions, as provided for in policy !

> KW> Finally, we came to a point where the Anti-Geo people said that they
> KW> would compromise along the lines of Natural wastage, i.e New nodes
> KW> strictly Geo, but existing nodes don't have to move.

>That proposal has been "on the table" for a very long time. A couple
>of years ago when I was briefly NC250, that was being seriously
>suggested by a number of NC's *then*, and a number of NC's were
>actually *doing* that at the time.

So what stopped it ?..... Why was there no longer term plan then to
fix the mess !

>It has *always* been an option,
>and remains one now, one which will effectively achieve what the
>Geo-Netters want, although over a longer time- span, one which will
>hurt nobody,

NOBODY has been 'Hurt'

>get very few people's backs up,

That there most certainly is !

> and which will not
>result is a large section of Region 25 disappearing from the
>worldwide nodelist.

Personal choice of those who refuse to comply with policy.

Even now they ALL have new node numbers within the worldwide nodelist
that many refuse to present, even as AKA's to keep connectivity !

Only about four people have gone completely, all within NET 252 which
seems to be at the heart of the problem, and I believe you are one
of those four !.... 4 out of 600 nodes..... my gosh you ARE a vocal
minority.....

>Why won't RC25 listen to more than his own little clique? Why cannot
>he accept a compromise solution? Could there be an ulterior motive
>here? I will leave you to judge...

Could there indeed be an Ulterior motive. The world will indeed Judge,
for your own account here, is one of a child sulking that he is unable
to get his own way !

Regards
Keith
FidoNews 10-52 Page: 13 26 Dec 1993


Merry Christmas, Editors!
From: Jeremy Bulmer (1:140/156)

I would like this article to be in the next fidonews!

Merry Christmas, All!

I know this is a bit late for a Merry Christmas, depending on
where in the world you are, but, MERRY CHRISTMAS ANYWAYS!!! :-).
I hope everyone had a prosporous and happy Christmas! May you
prosper in the new year and years to come! I hope everyone has
a good time on New Years Eve, but, don't get drunk and of course
this has probably been told to you a _thousand_ times, "PLEASE
DON'T DRINK AND DRIVE!" I don't know about anywhere else but
here in Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada (for all you don't know,
it's above the United States) :- ) it's illegal to drink and
drive! Anyways, for all of you in FidoNet, and everywhere else
in the entire world, MERRY CHRISTMAS & HAPPY NEW YEAR!!

Jeremy Bulmer, 1:140/156, Dispatch
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

On-line porn article in Sydney Morning Herald
From: Scot Art (3:712/634)

There was an article in the SMH this weekend about on-line porn. I
thought you might like to see my letter to the editor I wrote. You
can print it to fidonews. If you want to see the original article I
can fax it to you if you e-mail me back. Thanks, Scot

Concerning your article, and editorial, "Policing the
techno-nasties", which was run in Spectrum on Saturday Dec 18 1994:

It is perfectly true that legislation in the area of telematics is
far, far behind the technology's capabilities. However, by focussing
merely on the availability of pornography and anti-social computer
games your correspondents have failed to canvas the remaining 80% of
the debate about regulating these services.

First, I will state my interest in matter by first declaring that I
am an operator of a bulletin board system (BBS). It is my BBS's
official and publicly stated policy is not to carry any pornographic
material as it is demeaning to women, and we find it boring to the
extreme. In fact, I immediately delete any user who is found to have
uploaded such material to the BBS.

What about those verbal attacks on people, which are very common,
that breach NSW's anti-vilification laws? One woman I know reported
to me that an anonymous user had told her via a BBS that he "had
already killed 15 feminists" and that she was next on his list. An
enormous chasm of silence exudes from your writers about these issues.

FidoNews 10-52 Page: 14 26 Dec 1993

Given the huge influx of electronic conferencing material that comes
into this country every day via various international electronic
networks, it is extremely unlikely that any attempt to censor their
contents will work. Simply put, it is impossible to monitor that much
information.

The central flaw in the article's assumptions is that the problem is
of an essentially legal nature. It isn't. It's a social problem, not
a legal one. Until more people on the networks (and particularly
operators and administrators) become outspoken about anti-social
behaviour, it will be continuously forthcoming from certain groups of
people. If you want under-age access to pornography to cease, then
what must be done is social and educative, not legislative or law
enforcement orientated. Much of this debate is already underway in
the various forums that electronic networks have.

Having not even mentioned the majority of these problems, your
article was really a thinly-veiled attempt to whip up yet more public
"family values" hysteria in the face of a technology that most people
do not fully understand. This can only lead to a lessening of rigour
in the debate about both pornography and electronic communications in
general. Finally, it may lead to a lessening of free speech in and
restriction of access to the medium, and generally a less democratic,
and ultimately impoverished, society.

Yours faithfully,

Scot Art,
system operator
System-X, Darlinghurst NSW.
email: sc...@asstdc.oz.au
Scot Art 3:712/634@fidonet

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Responding to the arcticle by Bryan Price
From: Michael Salinger (1:323/204)

I had to respond to this note because of several main points.

>> I can understand your reasoning in trying to allow
>> "freedom of the press", but there comes a point where
>> common sense must be excersized.

> Just *who's* common sense?

That of a majority of the people, and what has been a standard for ages.
FidoNews is a newspaper for FidoNet network, and it is displayed on many
*FAMILY* BBS's throughout the country. The language in it is truly
inappropriate.

> Shock value *is* a form of expression, and therefore *is*
> protected by freedom of expression. The U.S. Constitution
> does *not* guaruntee Freedom of Speech, as everybody likes
> to put it, but Freedom of Expression. An importand
FidoNews 10-52 Page: 15 26 Dec 1993

> distinction.

***DEAD FLAT OUT WRONG***

The constitution does NOT guaruntee Freedom of Expression, but
Freedom of speech. I am a High school Honors student currently
studying the constitution. The constitution guaruntees as follows.

[Open Quote]

Amendment 1
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or of prohibiting the free excersize thereof; or abridging the
freedom of speech or of the press; or the right of the people
peacably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of
grievances.

[End Quote]

This comes right out of my U.S. History Textbook, and is an EXACT
copy of the constitution. It's freedom of speach, *NOT* freedom of
expression. I don't know where you picked THAT up..

If freedom of expression were allowed, then why is there laws on
Pornography? Isn't THAT freedom of expression? In my school, there
are problems with people coming in wearing swatzticas. Should they
be allowed to do THAT???!! Swatzticas offend people, and hence, my
school banned them. They are no more. And it is a VERY liberal
school! They don't ban any books, they have a creative writing
course that allows four-letter words, etc... But when you start to
post FidoNews with all these 4-letter words, that can be seen by
Families, Churches, and young Children (I know some as young as 8!)
then that is uncalled for. I think that you can sucessfully edit out
the 4-letter words without leaving out the taste of the article.

-Mike Salinger, 1:323/204

----------------------------------------------------------------------

New AREA CODES for the UK
From: John Bone (1:256/17)

THREE,
TWO,
ONE.

The Countdown to the new UK area codes has begun.....

(c) BT - British Telecom PLC 1993
81 Newgate Street, London, EC1A 7AJ
Offices in Europe, North America, Japan and Asia Pacific.

WHY THE UK AREA CODES ARE CHANGING:

On 16 April 1995, the number 1 will be inserted after the initial 0
FidoNews 10-52 Page: 16 26 Dec 1993

in the UK area codes. So, for example, the current UK area code for
Manchester 061 will become 0161.

These changes were decided by OFTEL, the UK telecommunications
industry watchdog, (AKA the USA's FCC) to cope with the growing
shortage of new phone codes due to the expansion of the
telecommunications industry.

The new area codes will create more capacity for numbers and new
services, and enable us to satisfy your needs well into the future.
As a result of the changes, there are significant implications for
our business users, whether they are companies, forms, organisations
or individuals. That's why we have produced this leaflet. It
explains most things you need to know about the changes, and how to
prepare for them in advance.

WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO START PREPARING NOW:

The main reason for letting you know about the new codes now is to
give you the opportunity to prepare well in advance - and keep
disruptions and costs to a minimum.

For example, you'll need to make changes to stationary and signs.

you'll need to reprogram any computers and telecommunications
equipment you may have - such as switchboards, security alarms and
call barring systems ( switchboards with call barring will need to be
adapted by Easter 1994 !).

The area code changes, however, will not affect: Freephone or reduced
rate numbers, such as - 0800, 0345; premium rate (0900) numbers such
as 0981, 0839, 0881 and 0898; or UK mobile (celnet & vodaphone) phone
numbers.

TWO MORE CHANGES TO LOOK OUT FOR:

OFTEL has also announced changes to the area codes of five cities,
which have a particularly urgent need for more phone numbers; Leeds,
Sheffield, Nottingham, Leicester and Bristol. These cities will
therefore be given completely new codes.

The increase in number capacity will be achieved by adding a 2 or 9
in front of the local city numbers. (ie. from six digit to sven digit
phone numbers.)

The new area codes for each city are:
Leeds: 0523 nn nnnn becomes 0113 2nn nnnn
Sheffield: 0742 nn nnnn becomes 0114 2nn nnnn
Nottingham: 0602 nn nnnn becomes 0115 9nn nnnn
Leicester: 0533 nn nnnn becomes 0116 2nn nnnn
Bristol: 0272 nn nnnn becomes 0117 9nn nnnn

AND on an international level, all European countries are moving
towards a single international access code.

FidoNews 10-52 Page: 17 26 Dec 1993

So, to harmonise with this, the international access code from the UK
will change from 010 to 00.

Once again these changes will take place on 16 april 1995.

HOW WE WILL BE HELPING YOU DURING THE COUNTDOWN TO PHoneDAY.

Until April 1995, we'll be running a major publicity campaigh to make
all BT customers aware of the code changes and what they need to do.

The PHoneDAY logo you see here in this leaflet will be used
throughtout the campaign, both by BT and all other (UK)
telecommunications companies.

From March throught to August 1994, our engineers will be setting up
and testing lines. So, in order to help you with your code change
plans, all the new codes will be run in parallel with the old ones
after August 1994.

This will give you time to carry out necessary changes, such as
amending call barring equipment and reprogramming stored numbers into
telecommunications and computer equipment.

To make sure nothing is forgotten, we've inculded a checklist in this
leaflet which details the changes that need to be made. We've also
included a questions and answers section that addresses queries about
the code changes. If you have any further questions, simply call the
free helpline we've set up specially for phONEday. It gives you free
access to experts who'll be pleased to help you. The number is (UK
only) 0800 01 01 01.

YOUR phONEday QUESTIONS ANSWERED:

Q. Will everyone be affected by the changes? A. Yes. Both BT
customers in the UK and international customers will be affected, as
well as customers of Mercury, Kingston Communications in Hull,
operators in the Isle of man, Jersey and Guernsey, and also cable
operators and most paging services.

Q. Will "MY" phone number stay the same? A. In most cases, yes. but
people calling you from outside your area will have to add 1 to the
existing dialing code. If you live is Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham,
Leicester or Bristol, however, you will have a new code, and an extra
digit will be added to the front of your existing number.

Q. Will call charges be affected by the changes? A. No.

Q. What changes will I have to make? A. If you have call barring
equipment, this will need to be reprogrammed before Easter 1994.
Switchboards and Security/fire alarms that dial a pre-set number will
also need to be reprogrammed. (Alarm companies will be contacting
their customers, so you may wish to arrange a maintanence visit to
coincide with the countdown to PHoneDAY.

Q. Will BT pay for the changes I have to make to my stationary and
FidoNews 10-52 Page: 18 26 Dec 1993

signage? A. No. We are letting all telephone users know the new UK
codes early to give them plenty of time to incorporate changes, such
as amending stationary and signs, as part of their normal replacement
programme.

Q. Will BT pay for the changes I have to make to my equipment? A. No.
In most cases, BT will not charge for modifications to equipment
which is covered by a BT mainanence contract. Any other equipment
should be modified as part of the manufacturers's service.

Q. Will all numbers change? A. No. mobile phones will still use the
same codes; Only geographic (UK) area codes will change. 0800 and
0345 numbers won't change either. Nor will recorded message phone
lines (aka 0900 services) begining with codes like 0891.

Q. Why couldn't these changes have been made at the same time as the
London code change? A. London simply couldn't wait for an increase in
phone numbers. We had to act by 1990 and OFTEL hadn't made a decision
about the national code change at that stage.

Note. London numbers are again subject to the phONEday changes.
For example: London 071 nnn nnnn becomes 0171 nnn nnnn
and London 081 nnn nnnn becomes 0181 nnn nnnn

Q. What will happen if my customers or clients dial my number without
the extra 1 after 16 April 1995?

A. Their call will be answered with a pre-recorded message whick will
remind them about the code changes. BT will not charge for this
service.

Q. I'd still like to know more about how these changes will affect
me. Who should I call? A. If there's anything else you'd like to
know, just call our special helpline on (UK only) 0800 01 01 01.
We'll be happy to help you, and you won't be charged for the call.

---- cut ----

... I have cut out here the British telecom advice to Private Branch
telephone exchange managers ....

---- cut ----

The NEW UK Area codes should start to work from Easter Sunday 1994,
and the OLD UK area codes will fail to work one year later.

I hope this helps. This will affect the region 25 segment of the
nodelist at sometime, but possiblily not until after Xmas 1994.
FidoNews 10-52 Page: 19 26 Dec 1993


Original to Jeff Cochran of 1:371/2...@fidonet.org
From: Bob Moravsik (1:2606/583)

Jeff: I laughed and laughed at your ridiculous article in FNEWSA50.
Unfortuately (or fortuately) I don't route 4SALE18. Moderators own
NOTHING that passes through MYYYYYYYYYYYYYY BBS. I can demonstrate
this to you very easy and will do so in a public echo. YOU link to
me for 4SALE18 and I'll pick it up. <grinning>.

You act out the fanticies in Fidonews and we'll cut YOU LINK to the
echo you "alledge" is YOURS <ROTFL>. What would you do...sue
<gag>...file a PC <gag>.

See the FACT that you must ask others (note ask) to do something
implies they can refuse. Now if you distribute on your dime...then I
could start another 4SALE18 (same tag)...what would you do...sue
<gag>...a PC <gag>.

I thought about writing a rebutal but your position but I'll sent
this to Fidonews instead as a rebutal adressing your points one by
one would be further embarrasing to you.

Here are the FACTS of life:

1. Authors OWN the messages they type (regardless of the TAG).

2. Routers determine WHAT THEY link and WHAT they won't link.

3. Moderators can be totally ignored (and probably are if they
approach issues like you), but if they are REASONABLE, many are glad
to cooperate.

Sorry but the days of its my ball and bat so its my game are over at
about 8 years old. I suggest you look at the practical application
of the foolishness in your article then decide that it is better to
be a member of a team then a self proclaimed controller of
information.

Bob (MODERATOR SYSOP...)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings, Editor.
From: Fredric Rice (1:102/890)

I enjoy these rare claims of "Traditional FidoNews Values." <smile>

"Pat Robertson? Step aside, if you please. Doctor Hagan will fix it."

* Originally by Fredric Rice, 1:102/890@FidoNet
* Originally to Daniel Hagan, 1:381/0
* Originally dated 23 Dec 1993, 20:58

FidoNews 10-52 Page: 20 26 Dec 1993

dh> As editor(s) of Fidonews, you should consider
dh> resigning the position due to malfeasance.
dh> Fidonet is supposed to be a community network.

The single most destructive force on this planet, Daniel, is the
ideologies which would dictate to derive a morality for others -- for
the contemporary generation as well as for those which follow.
Nothing else comes close to matching the tyrannies inflicted upon
humanity under the banner of morality; greed hasn't done it; not
power nor control; not even the insanity of the few.

Such acts and demands for said 'morality' are thinly disguised hatred
and intolerance. The guilty parties are death-embracing religions
and 'well- meaning' government. You propose to inflict the same
tyrannies upon FidoNews editorship in what you suspect is one small,
unimportant way: abolish upon pain of excommunication those who would
speak something you, yourself, are told to dislike.

What do you do with network mail that you may see which doesn't meet
your repressive superstitions? If you delete them, I would suggest
that you resign your posistion now and let the adults within the
network carry on.

Thanks.

Rev Fredric Rice.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

========================================================================
Fidonews Information
========================================================================

------- FIDONEWS MASTHEAD AND CONTACT INFORMATION ----------------

Editors: Sylvia Maxwell, Donald Tees, Tim Pozar
Editors Emeritii: Thom Henderson, Dale Lovell, Vince Perriello,
Tom Jennings

IMPORTANT NOTE: The FidoNet address of the FidoNews BBS has been
changed!!! Please make a note of this.

"FidoNews" BBS
FidoNet 1:1/23
BBS +1-519-570-4176, 300/1200/2400/14400/V.32bis/HST(DS)
Internet addresses:
Don & Sylvia (submission address)
edi...@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca

Sylvia -- m...@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca
Donald -- don...@exlibris.tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca
Tim -- po...@kumr.lns.com

(Postal Service mailing address) (have extreme patience)
FidoNews
FidoNews 10-52 Page: 21 26 Dec 1993

128 Church St.
Kitchener, Ontario
Canada
N2H 2S4

Published weekly by and for the members of the FidoNet international
amateur electronic mail system. It is a compilation of individual
articles contributed by their authors or their authorized agents. The
contribution of articles to this compilation does not diminish the
rights of the authors. Opinions expressed in these articles are those
of the authors and not necessarily those of FidoNews.

Authors retain copyright on individual works; otherwise FidoNews is
copyright 1993 Sylvia Maxwell. All rights reserved. Duplication and/or
distribution permitted for noncommercial purposes only. For use in
other circumstances, please contact the original authors, or FidoNews
(we're easy).


OBTAINING COPIES: The-most-recent-issue-ONLY of FidoNews in electronic
form may be obtained from the FidoNews BBS via manual download or
Wazoo FileRequest, or from various sites in the FidoNet and Internet.
PRINTED COPIES may be obtained from Fido Software for $10.00US each
PostPaid First Class within North America, or $13.00US elsewhere,
mailed Air Mail. (US funds drawn upon a US bank only.)

INTERNET USERS: FidoNews is available via FTP from ftp.fidonet.org, in
directory ~ftp/pub/fidonet/fidonews. If you have questions regarding
FidoNet, please direct them to dei...@gisatl.fidonet.org, not the
FidoNews BBS. (Be kind and patient; David Deitch is generously
volunteering to handle FidoNet/Internet questions.)

SUBMISSIONS: You are encouraged to submit articles for publication in
FidoNews. Article submission requirements are contained in the file
ARTSPEC.DOC, available from the FidoNews BBS, or Wazoo filerequestable
from 1:1/23 as file "ARTSPEC.DOC". Please read it.

"Fido", "FidoNet" and the dog-with-diskette are U.S. registered
trademarks of Tom Jennings, and are used with permission.

Asked what he thought of Western civilization,
M.K. Gandhi said, "I think it would be an excellent idea".
-- END
----------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Remember Campers!!!

To send mail from an Internet site or smart UUCP Site TO a user
that calls a Fido-Net system.

You need to know the name of the person and node number of the
Fido-Net system that the person uses.

The address of a FidoNode looks like this: 1:105/302.0. Usually
the 1: and .0 are left off, but they are there by default. (In
Europe it is 2: and in the Pacific Basin it is 3:.) That
address can be translated as "Zone 1, Net 105, FidoNode 302,
Point 0." or p0.f302.n105.z1. Add the FidoNet domain of
.fidonet.org to the end of that, chop off the p0 (it is again,
a default) and you have f302.n105.z1.fidonet.org - the "Fully
Qualified Domain Name" of a FidoNode. Another example is
1:105/4.3 which would be written as p3.f4.n105.z1.fidonet.org
(since there is a point number other than 0, we have to specify
it). Note also that we are only using zone 1. This will also
work for zones 2 and 3, just use z2 or z3 as appropriate.

FidoNet uses full names of the callers. Multi-part name folks
(eg. First Last, ie. "Dale Weber") will have a period '.'
seperating their names. So, lets say you wanted to send mail
to Dale Weber at 1:105/55.0, you would address your letter to:
Dale....@f55.n105.z1.fidonet.org.

************************************************************************
Submissions to comp.org.fidonet should be addressed to
po...@kumr.lns.com
************************************************************************

--
Internet: po...@kumr.lns.com
Snail: Tim Pozar / KKSF / 77 Maiden Lane / San Francisco CA 94108 / USA
POTS: +1 415 788 2022 Radio: KC6GNJ / KAE6247

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