Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:03:40 PM3/8/18

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Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?

I'm setting up a new 128GB iPad, after creating the mandatory iCloud
signin, to be off Apple's ridiculously tiny iCloud backup because 5GB is
not enough to back up anything even close to useful.
http://i.cubeupload.com/0RwZa9.jpg

In iOS 11.2.1, I turned off /all/ the iCloud backup stuff at:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud >
- iCloud Drive = off
- Mail = off
- Contacts = off
- Reminders = off
- Safari = off
- Home = off
- Notes = off
- News = off
- Keychain = Off
- iCloud Backup = Off
- Find My iPad = On

The moment I did that, the "blue" "Mail" app stopped working.
It kept insisting I already had an account (which is true) but it wouldn't
even work until I turned on iCloud backup for Email.

Why?
Why can't Apple Mail just work without an iCloud backup being involved?

Jolly Roger

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:10:41 PM3/8/18

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On 2018-03-09, Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:
> Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?

It doesn't; you're just a *completely* inept Apple-hating troll whose
irrational hatred prevents you from getting the *simplest* things done.

Yet another of your slew of nyms *plonked*.

Bye, Felicia.

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

nospam

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:24:07 PM3/8/18

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In article <p7sq1o$1lek$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred

<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

> Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?

it doesn't.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:30:37 PM3/8/18

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In article <news:fge8p0...@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger wrote:

> It doesn't; you're just a *completely* inept Apple-hating troll whose
> irrational hatred prevents you from getting the *simplest* things done.

It takes only seconds to find such glaring bugs in iOS.

Try this to easily reproduce the iOS Mail bug:
1. Set up an iPad with a new na...@iCloud.com authorization.
2. Try to send Mail using the "blue" Mail icon; it works.
3. Change from Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = On
Change to Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = Off
4. Try to send Mail using the "blue" Mail icon; it fails.

You get a screen saying "Welcome to Mail" where it wants you to choose:
- iCloud
- Exchange
- Google
- Yahoo!
- AOL
- Outlook.com
- Other

Where the only logical choices are "iCloud" or "other", neither of which
work.

If you choose "other" and provide the login credentials:
- Name = Your Name
- Email = your...@icloud.com
- Password = yourPassword1

It fails, saying: The IMAP server Automatically added for iOS and OS X Mail
is not responding. Check your network connection and that you entered the
correct information in the Incoming Mail Serve4r field.

If you continue, you get the error: "Cannot Connect Using SSL. Do you want
to try setting up the account without SSL?" where it doesn't matter if you
hit Yes or No, it won't work.

You get a similar message if you try to switch from IMAP to POP.

And, yet, if you turn on iCloud backup, "blue" Mail instantly works.
I realize you, Jolly Roger, will /never/ be able to answer a tech question.

But maybe someone here on this newsgroup understands why.

You can also reproduce the same iOS bug by selecting "iCloud":
The error message in that case is ""your...@icloud.com is Already Added.
This iCloud account has already been added to your iPad."

In all cases, if you simply turn on iCloud backup, then the "blue" Mail
suddenly works again.

Why does iOS "blue" Mail require the unwanted iCloud backup to be On?
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = On

nospam

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:32:34 PM3/8/18

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In article <p7srk9$1n78$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred

<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> Why does iOS "blue" Mail require the unwanted iCloud backup to be On?
> Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = On

it doesn't.

you fucked up yet again.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:38:27 PM3/8/18

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In article <news:080320182124060572%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

>> Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?
>
> it doesn't.

Well then, if it doesn't, and since it did, then it's an iOS bug that took
seconds to find.

In fact, I just proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that this iOS bug, which
took only seconds to reproduce, is fully reproducible on /multiple/ iPads.

Do they not /test/ this operating system?

If it's /this/ easy to run into obvious iOS bugs, Lord help us when we
actually try to do something more complex than sending email on iOS.

Look at the post to Jolly Roger for the sequence to reproduce the bug.
It's 100% reproducible.

a. Turn iCloud off - Mail fails to allow you to log in
b. Turn iCloud on - Mail works fine.

I realize Jolly Roger is incapable of answering any technical question, but
maybe there is one person on this iOS newsgroup who can flip the switch to
better understand the Mail bug I'm talking about.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:42:52 PM3/8/18

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In article <news:080320182132330999%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

>> Why does iOS "blue" Mail require the unwanted iCloud backup to be On?
>> Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = On
>
> it doesn't.
>
> you fucked up yet again.

You said it's not supposed to do that, and yet it did - hence - it could
easily be a blatant iOS bug - which they didn't catch - because they don't
test iOS in the real world (obviously).

This iOS Mail bug took seconds to reproduce on multiple iPads.

If I can find blatant iOS bugs this quickly, Lord help us when we actually
try to do something more complicated than simply sending email.

Lewis

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:43:11 PM3/8/18

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In message <p7sq1o$1lek$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:
> Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?

It does not.

> I'm setting up a new 128GB iPad, after creating the mandatory iCloud

there is no mandatory iCloud. At all.

> - Mail = off

If you do not have an email account configured for Mail, then Mail will
not work.

> It kept insisting I already had an account (which is true) but it wouldn't
> even work until I turned on iCloud backup for Email.

> Why?
> Why can't Apple Mail just work without an iCloud backup being involved?

It works just fine without an iCloud account. In fact, that is how my
iPad Pro is configured.

--
And there were all the stars, looking remarkably like powered diamonds
spilled on black velvet, the stars that lured and ultimately called the
boldest towards them...

Lewis

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:44:28 PM3/8/18

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In message <p7srk9$1n78$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:
> Try this to easily reproduce the iOS Mail bug:
> 1. Set up an iPad with a new na...@iCloud.com authorization.
> 2. Try to send Mail using the "blue" Mail icon; it works.
> 3. Change from Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = On
> Change to Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = Off
> 4. Try to send Mail using the "blue" Mail icon; it fails.

the level of stupidity in this post is approaching Trump levels.

*PLONK*

--
If you have any young friends who aspire to become writers, the
second-greatest favor you can do them is to present them with copies of
The Elements of Style. The first-greatest, of course, is to shoot them
now, while they're happy. -Dorothy Parker

nospam

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:50:58 PM3/8/18

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In article <p7ss2v$1nnp$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred

<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> >> Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?
> >
> > it doesn't.
>
> Well then, if it doesn't, and since it did, then it's an iOS bug that took
> seconds to find.

it did because *you* have *no* idea what you're doing and keep fucking
things up.

apple mail does *not* require icloud anything to send or receive email.
period.

nospam

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:50:58 PM3/8/18

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In article <slrnpa3t8b....@Snow.local>, Lewis

<g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <p7srk9$1n78$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Ragnusen Ultred
> <ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:
> > Try this to easily reproduce the iOS Mail bug:
> > 1. Set up an iPad with a new na...@iCloud.com authorization.
> > 2. Try to send Mail using the "blue" Mail icon; it works.
> > 3. Change from Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = On
> > Change to Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = Off
> > 4. Try to send Mail using the "blue" Mail icon; it fails.
>
> the level of stupidity in this post is approaching Trump levels.

it's well beyond that.

nospam

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:50:59 PM3/8/18

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In article <p7ssb8$1o45$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred

<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

> >> Why does iOS "blue" Mail require the unwanted iCloud backup to be On?
> >> Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = On
> >
> > it doesn't.
> >
> > you fucked up yet again.
>
> You said it's not supposed to do that, and yet it did - hence - it could
> easily be a blatant iOS bug - which they didn't catch - because they don't
> test iOS in the real world (obviously).

*you* fucked up.

> This iOS Mail bug took seconds to reproduce on multiple iPads.

<http://www.quotehd.com/imagequotes/authors76/henny-youngman-quote-the-p
atient-says-doctor-it-hurts-when-i-do-this.jpg>

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:56:17 PM3/8/18

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In article <news:080320182150587290%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

>> You said it's not supposed to do that, and yet it did - hence - it could
>> easily be a blatant iOS bug - which they didn't catch - because they don't
>> test iOS in the real world (obviously).
>
> *you* fucked up.

You said it's not supposed to do that, and yet it did do that.
For multiple people on different iPads and different accounts.

If you turn off the iCloud backup setting for Mail, then you can't send
Mail.

If you turn iCloud backup back on, then you can send Mail.

Why does Mail not work unless you turn iCloud backup on?

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:58:33 PM3/8/18

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In article <news:080320182150587264%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

> it's well beyond that.

And yet, the fact remains that you can't send Mail if you don't turn iCloud
backup for Mail on.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 8, 2018, 9:59:57 PM3/8/18

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In article <news:080320182150577234%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

> apple mail does *not* require icloud anything to send or receive email.
> period.

And yet, if you turn iCloud backup off for Mail, you can't even log into
your iCloud mail until you turn iCloud backup for mail back on.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 8, 2018, 10:02:01 PM3/8/18

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In article <news:slrnpa3t5u....@Snow.local>, Lewis wrote:

> If you do not have an email account configured for Mail, then Mail will
> not work.

If you created an iCloud account (e.g., f...@iCloud.com) and you turn iCloud
backup for mail off, you can't log into your "blue" iOS Mail, but if you
turn iCloud backup for iOS Mail on, it works fine.

I had someone try this on a similar iPad where the bug is 100% reproducible
in seconds.

Why?

nospam

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Mar 8, 2018, 10:03:59 PM3/8/18

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In article <p7st8k$1ouv$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred

<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> > it's well beyond that.
>
> And yet, the fact remains that you can't send Mail if you don't turn iCloud
> backup for Mail on.

i do it every day. so do hundreds of millions of others.

nospam

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Mar 8, 2018, 10:04:00 PM3/8/18

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In article <p7stb9$1p28$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred

<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> And yet, if you turn iCloud backup off for Mail, you can't even log into
> your iCloud mail until you turn iCloud backup for mail back on.

you have *no* clue what you're doing.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 8, 2018, 10:05:59 PM3/8/18

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nospam

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Mar 8, 2018, 10:11:13 PM3/8/18

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In article <p7stmi$1pi0$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred

<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> >> And yet, if you turn iCloud backup off for Mail, you can't even log into
> >> your iCloud mail until you turn iCloud backup for mail back on.
> >
> > you have *no* clue what you're doing.
>
> And yet, if you turn iCloud backup off for Mail, you can't even log into
> your iCloud mail until you turn iCloud backup for mail back on.

further demonstrating just how clueless you are.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 8, 2018, 10:22:19 PM3/8/18

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In article <news:080320182211120115%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

>> And yet, if you turn iCloud backup off for Mail, you can't even log into
>> your iCloud mail until you turn iCloud backup for mail back on.
>

> further demonstrating just how clueless you are.

And yet, it's a fact that if you turn iCloud backup off for Mail, you can't
use Mail.

Jolly Roger

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Mar 8, 2018, 11:09:32 PM3/8/18

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LOL! Of course, there's no such thing as "iCloud backup for Mail".
Apparently the resident nym-switching troll's irrational fear and hatred
of all things Apple blinds him completely from seeing that the setting
he keeps ignorantly toggling has absolutely *nothing* to do with
backups. Meanwhile, as he bumbles around like a lost technophobe and
constantly belittles Apple users, the rest of us use Mail without a
fucking hitch all day every day. He's a stubborn, foolish old man. Just
pathetic.

Jolly Roger

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Mar 8, 2018, 11:13:44 PM3/8/18

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On 2018-03-09, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

The really hilarious thing is he is:

a) disabling the iCloud account he set up in Settings, and

b) still expecting Mail to be able to use that account (!), and then

c) trolling the Apple news groups about it...

His pure stupidity is on display for all to see. This from the
nym-switching troll who claims all other iOS users are idiots compared
to him... Fucking comical. : D

Jolly Roger

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Mar 8, 2018, 11:15:21 PM3/8/18

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On 2018-03-09, Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <p7sq1o$1lek$1...@gioia.aioe.org> Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:
>> Why does Apple (blue) "Mail" require iCloud backup just to send email?
>
> It does not.
>
>> I'm setting up a new 128GB iPad, after creating the mandatory iCloud
>
> there is no mandatory iCloud. At all.
>
>> - Mail = off
>
> If you do not have an email account configured for Mail, then Mail will
> not work.

You'd think that would be *blatantly* obvious to someone who
*constantly* claims to be "way smarter than the average Apple
user"...but nope. : D

dorayme

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Mar 9, 2018, 3:04:30 AM3/9/18

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In article <080320182150587264%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > the level of stupidity in this post is approaching Trump levels.
>
> it's well beyond that.

There is a beyond that?

--
dorayme

Lloyd

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Mar 9, 2018, 9:48:22 AM3/9/18

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Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> Wrote in message:

I read this whole thread on another machine this morning. While I
figure it is just another of your incessants trolls, here's a
solution you might consider.

Get Edison Mail. Its the one I use because the iOS Mail app seems
to have issues with my live.com email account. And I think
Edison Mail is overall a better product, and it is free. Or get
another email app that you might like better, most are free
though not all, just as with Android mail apps.

--
Lloyd

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 9, 2018, 1:18:08 PM3/9/18

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In article <news:fgfl5l...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:

> Get Edison Mail. Its the one I use because the iOS Mail app seems
> to have issues with my live.com email account. And I think
> Edison Mail is overall a better product, and it is free. Or get
> another email app that you might like better, most are free
> though not all, just as with Android mail apps.

Thanks Loyd for suggesting Edison Mail for those who don't want to have to
enable iCloud settings just to read and send email.

As you noted, there are plenty of robust MUAs on Android (e.g., K-9 Mail)
so there should be similar sets of working MUAs on iOS that don't require
the iCloud settings to be turned on.

Taking you up on your helpful suggestion, after checking this setting:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

I downloaded "Email - Edison Mail, by Edison Software Corporation"
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/email-edison-mail/id922793622?mt=8

When first run, "Edison Mail" provides a list of server setups:
- Gmail
- Yahoo
- Outlook
- AOL
- iCloud
- Exchange
- Office356
- Other

Where I selected "iCloud" and where the warning came up:
"As of June 15th, 2017, Apple requires all third-party apps that access
iCloud information to utilize app-specific passwords, this includes
our Email app."

Moving forward, I entered in the correct iCloud username & password but iOS
pops up the message "Your username or password was incorrect. Make sure
you're using your app-specific password."

Looking up what an "app-sepcific password" is, the Apple support says:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204397
"To generate and use app-specific passwords, your Apple ID must
be protected with two-factor authentication."

As a test, I had no problem using Edison Mail to log into an existing Gmail
account, so it's aparently just iCloud accounts that Edison Mail can't
allow you into with your correct iCloud account username and password.

nospam

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Mar 9, 2018, 1:31:46 PM3/9/18

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In article <p7uj4s$p1h$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred

<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> Where I selected "iCloud" and where the warning came up:
> "As of June 15th, 2017, Apple requires all third-party apps that access
> iCloud information to utilize app-specific passwords, this includes
> our Email app."
>
> Moving forward, I entered in the correct iCloud username & password but iOS
> pops up the message "Your username or password was incorrect. Make sure
> you're using your app-specific password."
>
> Looking up what an "app-sepcific password" is, the Apple support says:
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204397
> "To generate and use app-specific passwords, your Apple ID must
> be protected with two-factor authentication."
>
> As a test, I had no problem using Edison Mail to log into an existing Gmail
> account, so it's aparently just iCloud accounts that Edison Mail can't
> allow you into with your correct iCloud account username and password.

nope. it's *you* who fucked up yet another thing.

ElfinArc

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Mar 9, 2018, 2:28:24 PM3/9/18

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Yep. Apple requires app specific passwords for non-apple apps for security
reasons. That should be counted as a plus btw.

--
Elfin

Jolly Roger

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Mar 9, 2018, 3:48:07 PM3/9/18

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It’s only a negative to Apple-hating trolls.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 9, 2018, 5:09:18 PM3/9/18

to

In article
<news:867033820.542316354.772...@news.individual.net>,

ElfinArc wrote:

>>> As a test, I had no problem using Edison Mail to log into an existing Gmail
>>> account, so it's aparently just iCloud accounts that Edison Mail can't
>>> allow you into with your correct iCloud account username and password.
>>
>> nope. it's *you* who fucked up yet another thing.
>>
>
> Yep. Apple requires app specific passwords for non-apple apps for security
> reasons. That should be counted as a plus btw.

Thanks Elfin for explaining that Apple forces only it's iCloud domain
accounts to employ onerous undesired unwanted two-factor authorization even
if and when Apple's iCloud-domain account users don't want it.

The fact is that Apple allows all other mail-server domains (e.g., Google,
AOL, Yahoo, Exchange, whatever) to use the users desired real login &
password credentials which is, by its very nature, exactly what the user
wants.

Hence, it's /only/ the iCloud-domain accounts where Apple forces its loyal
users to use an undesired password mechanism that is not of the users'
choosing.

If the users want to use a login and password of their own choosing, then
the loyal Apple iCloud-account users /must/ turn on this setting:

Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

And even then, these users now /must/ use /only/ Apple's (blue icon) "Mail"
app, if they wish to use a login and password of their own choosing.

There's no way around this Apple-only iCloud-domain-only unwanted
unnecessary Apple-mandated restriction on /just/ iCloud-domain accounts,
except to use Apple's own Mail app.

What Apple is doing, effectively, for iCloud-domain accounts, is forcing
users to use the Apple "Mail" app if the user wants to use a login and
password of their own choosing, because, in effect, using any other
application other than Apple's own "Mail" application, will force the user
to employ two-factor authorization that the user doesn't even want.

Hence, like all things Apple, it's designed more for making users use the
Apple "Mail" app than it is for security, since the Apple Mail app itself
doesn't need the two-factor authorization for iCloud-domain mail accounts.

I realize nospam /understands/ this restriction full well, but that folks
like Jolly Roger and Lewis and dorayme don't have the mental acuity to
understand those details.

Just in case I wasn't clear about the facts, I think only three people here
/understand/ what I just wrote:
a. I hope you do (let me know if you do)
b. I hope that Lloyd does (he can let me know if he does)
c. I hope that nospam undertands this (but he'll never admit it)

The rest who posted to this thread (i.e., Lewis, dorayme, Jolly Roger)
don't have anywhere near the mental capacity necessary to understand what I
just wrote, which is an empirical fact I've reproduced a few times to make
sure it was a correct statement.

Let me know if you need me to clarify, since the half dozen Apple
Apologists have no clue what is actually going on since all they know is
what Apple Marketing tells them to think.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 9, 2018, 5:17:44 PM3/9/18

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In article <news:fgfl5l...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:

> Get Edison Mail. Its the one I use because the iOS Mail app seems
> to have issues with my live.com email account. And I think
> Edison Mail is overall a better product, and it is free. Or get
> another email app that you might like better, most are free
> though not all, just as with Android mail apps.

Thanks Lloyd for that excellent suggestion of using Edison Mail.

It's a wonderful app that allows users to have multiple accounts within tg
same app, so it's better, in that respect, than single-user
mail-user-agents (MUAs).

In fact, your suggestion of using Edison Mail is so useful that I've
already walked one of the users I'm helping get used to her iPad to get
used to Edison Mail, because it's (IMHO), far better than the Apple "Mail"
app.

Unfortunately, for iCloud-domain users only, Apple restricts all MUAs other
than the Apple Mail app from allowing the users to employ a login/password
of their own choosing.

Hence, the only app that allows Apple iCloud-domain users to use a
login/password of their own choosing, as of June 15th, 2017, is Apple's own
"Mail" app.

Even then, that Mail app won't work unless you turn this setting on:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

These are facts which I hope you can appreciate are accurate, as opposed to
everything you see in this thread from the likes of nospam (who knows the
facts, but he'll never admit them) or dorayme, Lewis, and Jolly Roger who
don't have the mental capacity to understand those facts I just wrote
above.

nospam

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Mar 9, 2018, 5:19:06 PM3/9/18

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In article <p7v0mb$1h7n$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred

<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> Thanks Elfin for explaining that Apple forces only it's iCloud domain
> accounts to employ onerous undesired unwanted two-factor authorization even
> if and when Apple's iCloud-domain account users don't want it.

2-factor is not forced, although it should be.

Lloyd

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Mar 9, 2018, 5:59:15 PM3/9/18

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Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> Wrote in message:

I fully understand what you are saying, but you're wrong in parts
of it. The 2-factor system is a security system and is quite
good, you don't have to use it however. Here's a link for your
reading pleasure:
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204915

Note that you can turn it off.

Also note that the design is about close ties between a specified
client(s) and the server side. And since Apple can control both
with their client and server, only Apple produced apps are
'trusted'.

Any other apps need to gain that trust, hence the app specific
passwords. Since it isn't a big deal to use, why bitch? Of
course that is a rhetorical question because in your case, the
answer is "so you can bitch and troll"! :)

--
Lloyd

Lloyd

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Mar 9, 2018, 6:00:59 PM3/9/18

to

Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> Wrote in message:

> In article <news:fgfl5l...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:
>
>> Get Edison Mail. Its the one I use because the iOS Mail app seems
>> to have issues with my live.com email account. And I think
>> Edison Mail is overall a better product, and it is free. Or get
>> another email app that you might like better, most are free
>> though not all, just as with Android mail apps.
>
> Thanks Lloyd for that excellent suggestion of using Edison Mail.
>
> It's a wonderful app that allows users to have multiple accounts within tg
> same app, so it's better, in that respect, than single-user
> mail-user-agents (MUAs).
>
> In fact, your suggestion of using Edison Mail is so useful that I've
> already walked one of the users I'm helping get used to her iPad to get
> used to Edison Mail, because it's (IMHO), far better than the Apple "Mail"
> app.
>
> Unfortunately, for iCloud-domain users only, Apple restricts all MUAs other
> than the Apple Mail app from allowing the users to employ a login/password
> of their own choosing.
>
> Hence, the only app that allows Apple iCloud-domain users to use a
> login/password of their own choosing, as of June 15th, 2017, is Apple's own
> "Mail" app.
>

It is called tight security and since you are so hung up on
security and hiding who you are, you should be wondering why
everybody isn't doing it instead of bitching because Apple
does.

--
Lloyd

nospam

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Mar 9, 2018, 6:26:38 PM3/9/18

to

In article <fgghu2...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd

<lloy...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The 2-factor system is a security system and is quite
> good, you don't have to use it however.

true. it's not required, however, it should be.

also, 2-factor should *not* use sms, which unfortunately, many entities
who should know better require, namely financial institutions.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 9, 2018, 7:11:25 PM3/9/18

to

In article <news:fggi18...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:

> It is called tight security and since you are so hung up on
> security and hiding who you are, you should be wondering why
> everybody isn't doing it instead of bitching because Apple
> does.

Think about the problem set as an adult would.

On iOS, Apple makes it such that if you have an iCloud-domain mail address,
then you can only use a password of your choosing on iOS if you use the
Apple Mail MUA, but if you use any other MUA but Apple's MUA (as of June
15th 2017), then you must maintain a password that you don't even want in
the first place, which is over and above your real password.

I would /love/ for the facts in that statement to be wrong, but ...

Those are all valid, verified facts, are they not?

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 9, 2018, 7:11:36 PM3/9/18

to

In article <news:fgghu2...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:

> I fully understand what you are saying...

Thank you for being one of the rare adults on this newsgroup who
understands the questions and the facts presented.

That you understand the facts is good because I only speak facts, where in
this case, I reproduced all that I wrote about, to ensure that they were
empirical valid verified facts.

> but you're wrong in parts of it.

It would be /great/ if I were wrong, but (see below), you can NOT turn off
the unwanted two-factor authorization in my real-world circumstances of
using the Edison Mail app, according to the very article that you provided.
http://i.cubeupload.com/I6vi11.jpg

You can hit the two-factor-authorization switch all you want on the iPad
settings, but it won't make a difference either way to the facts presented
in this thread.
http://i.cubeupload.com/eiXEvh.jpg

Here's an adult summary of those real-world facts.
a. If the iOS user doesn't want 2-factor authorization, they don't need to
enable it /on the iOS device!/ (this is a fact)

b. Yet, if the iOS user created an iCloud account this week (which is what
I did) on iOS 11.1.2, then the fact is that this user must turn on this
iCloud setting shown below if they wish to use the Apple "Mail" MUA:

Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

c. If the iOS user wishes to use a /different/ MUA than the Apple MUA,
then, as of June 15th of last year, the user /must/ forever maintain a
/different/ password, which is one that is not of their choosing,. and they
must maintain that different password for /each/ MUA that they wish to use
that is not the specific Apple "Mail" MUA.

Those are facts that I /wish/ were wrong, but I tested each one of them, so
they're valid verified facts, are they not?

> The 2-factor system is a security system and is quite
> good,

Let's agree that, speaking as adults, this entire thread is /not/ at all
about whether or not two-factor authorization is good or bad for a
grandmother or her children or a sister or her boyfriend, etc.

Let's just assume that the user doesn't want what turns out to be
essentially arbitrary passwords not of the users' choosing for each MUA
that is not the Apple MUA.

> you don't have to use it however.

Your own article backs up every fact I previoously presented that you said
was incorrect, so I think one of us is not understanding the other
sufficiently fully.

I agree with you that Apple designed the situation such that if you use the
Apple MUA, then you get to use a password of your choosing, but only if you
use Apple's MUA (as of June 15th, 2017).

If I use any other MUA on my brand-new iPad, which has a brand new iCloud
account, then the need for what turns out to be an essentially arbitrary
password can't be turned off (that's what the article says anyway - does it
not?).

Before you answer, look at my valid verified facts presented above & below,
where I realize the details are complex in that nothing Apple says appears
to pan out as the truth when tested in the real world.

> Here's a link for your
> reading pleasure:
> https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204915

The fact is that I showed you in the above screenshots that I have
two-factor authorization turned off /on the iPad/ but that has no effect on
the facts that I am presenting here with respect to an essentially
arbitrary password required for any other MUA but the Apple MUA.

If I use any other MUA than the Apple MUA, this new iCloud account I made
/must/ use a authorization method that I don't want to use.

> Note that you can turn it off.

I realize there is detail involved here, where, in the real world, you
can't turn off the fact that only the Apple MUA allows you to have a
password of your choosing for iCloud-domain accounts (even if you have
two-factor authorization turned off on the iPad).

Note how ambiguous Apple always is when talking about real-world facts:
"You can't turn off two-factor authentication for "some" accounts
created in iOS 10.3 or macOS Sierra 10.12.4 and later."
Where it's not obvious what 'some' means in that sentence, particularly
relating to the iCloud account I just created this week on the new iOS
11.2.1 iPad.

I'll add the word "only" to the next sentence, to make the real world
clerer to you:
"[Only] If you created your Apple ID in an earlier version of
iOS or macOS, you can turn off two-factor authentication."

Hence, this suggestion of turning off multi-factor authorization doesn't
actually work in the real world for any MUA other than for Apple's own MUA.

That's not security.

That's simply a way of making it harder to use any other MUA than Apple's
MUA with an iCloud-domain email account.

> Also note that the design is about close ties between a specified
> client(s) and the server side. And since Apple can control both
> with their client and server, only Apple produced apps are
> 'trusted'.

That makes sense that Apple "trusts" their own walled-garden ecosystem.

> Any other apps need to gain that trust, hence the app specific
> passwords. Since it isn't a big deal to use, why bitch? Of
> course that is a rhetorical question because in your case, the
> answer is "so you can bitch and troll"! :)

You and ElfinArc are the only ones in this thread who seem to be adults, so
I will simply gently admonish you to please not fall into the childish trap
of calling valid verified facts a "bitch and troll" simply because you may
happen not to like those valid verified facts.

Everything I presented is valid verified fact.
1. I created an iCloud-domain iCloud account this week (e.g., x...@iCloud.com)
2. I never turned on two-factor authorization for that account on the iPad.
3. I can easily log into that iCloud-domain mail account using Apple's MUA.
4. However, using Apple MUA app requires turning on the iCloud setting:

Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

5. Any other MUA but Apple's MUA requires a password not of your choosing!

I empirically checked those facts, so I know them to be correct.

I would /love/ for the conclusion to be wrong - so - if I erred, please let
me know where, since I only use sentient adult logical thought processes.

nospam

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Mar 9, 2018, 7:16:20 PM3/9/18

to

In article <p7v7rj$1sc3$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Ragnusen Ultred

<ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

>
> It would be /great/ if I were wrong,

you are in just about everything.

ElfinArc

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Mar 9, 2018, 7:46:38 PM3/9/18

to

Yep, those are the facts, but it is optional. You can chose a lesser
security model which makes your ‘facts’ just bullshit to troll with.

--
Elfin

ElfinArc

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Mar 9, 2018, 7:46:39 PM3/9/18

to

It must be very boring on that mountaintop he lives on. :)

--
Elfin

Your Name

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Mar 9, 2018, 8:11:08 PM3/9/18

to

You're massively confusing things.

A. The email app you use is in most irrelevant and down to pure
personal preference. The password to access an iCloud email
address will be the same no matter which app you use.

B. If you're using an iCloud email address, then you should set it up
using Mail's, or more precisely iOS's "iCloud" option, not "Other"

C. The "Other" option is for setting up email accounts from any other
third-party email providers which aren't in the list above it, such
as the now-rare ISP provided email account, GMX.com, Mail.com,
Yandex.com, etc.

I don't use an iCloud email address, so I don't know whether or not it
requires the backup option to be turned on, or why it should require
that (if it does). Possibly it use the backup mechanism to run the IMAP
email account access, but that's unlikely.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 9, 2018, 9:37:45 PM3/9/18

to

In article
<news:1560867845.542334360.62...@news.individual.net>,

ElfinArc wrote:

> Yep, those are the facts, but it is optional. You can chose a lesser
> security model which makes your ¡facts¢ just bullshit to troll with.

For a moment, you had acted almost of the mentality of an adult, but this
statement shows you're just like the other Apple Apologists who instantly
turn into little children when confronted with facts they don't like.

This is fact, whether you wish to believe it or not.

As of June of last year, if you create a new iCloud-domain email account,
as I did this week, the only MUA on iOS that will allow you to use your own
password is the Apple MUA.

That you can't comprehend that simple fact doesn't make that fact bullshit.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 9, 2018, 10:14:52 PM3/9/18

to

In article <news:p7vbb8$143$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Your Name wrote:

> You're massively confusing things.

Thank you for being an adult when you converse on this iOS newsgroup.

I agree with you that people seem to be confusing 'two-factor
authorization', which Lloyd (I think) brought up ...
http://i.cubeupload.com/pqP3oW.jpg

and the fact that as of June 15th, 2017, iOS will no longer allow a user to
use a password of their own choosing if they use an MUA that is not the
official iOS "Mail" MUA for an iCloud-domain email account.
http://i.cubeupload.com/cpuwfi.jpg

> A. The email app you use is in most irrelevant and down to pure
> personal preference. The password to access an iCloud email
> address will be the same no matter which app you use.

We both /wish/ that statement were true, but as of June 15th 2017, Apple
made their MUA the /only/ MUA that will allow the user to use a password of
the users' choosing.
http://i.cubeupload.com/v29XxR.jpg

> B. If you're using an iCloud email address, then you should set it up
> using Mail's, or more precisely iOS's "iCloud" option, not "Other"

Just to be clear, nobody is talking about using "Other".
We're all talking about hitting the "iCloud" option.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ltJinM.jpg

> C. The "Other" option is for setting up email accounts from any other
> third-party email providers which aren't in the list above it, such
> as the now-rare ISP provided email account, GMX.com, Mail.com,
> Yandex.com, etc.

You bring up a good point that there are ways to screw this up, but, to be
clear, nobody is talking about using "Other" as the mail-setup option.

We're all talking about hitting the "iCloud" option.
http://i.cubeupload.com/ltJinM.jpg

> I don't use an iCloud email address, so I don't know whether or not it
> requires the backup option to be turned on, or why it should require
> that (if it does). Possibly it use the backup mechanism to run the IMAP
> email account access, but that's unlikely.

The fact is that, as of June 15th 2017, the only iOS MUA that can get
icloud-domain email using the users' desired password is the Apple "Mail"
MUA.
http://i.cubeupload.com/cpuwfi.jpg

Every other IOS MUA is forced to require a password that is not the users'
desired password. Apple clearly said so herself.
http://i.cubeupload.com/v29XxR.jpg

That is just a fact, whether we like it or not - it's a fact.

Your Name

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Mar 10, 2018, 1:35:43 AM3/10/18

to

The original message did say they had tried to use the "Other" option
and got the same result.

>> I don't use an iCloud email address, so I don't know whether or not it
>> requires the backup option to be turned on, or why it should require
>> that (if it does). Possibly it use the backup mechanism to run the IMAP
>> email account access, but that's unlikely.
>
> The fact is that, as of June 15th 2017, the only iOS MUA that can get
> icloud-domain email using the users' desired password is the Apple "Mail"
> MUA.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/cpuwfi.jpg
>
> Every other IOS MUA is forced to require a password that is not the users'
> desired password. Apple clearly said so herself.
> http://i.cubeupload.com/v29XxR.jpg
>
> That is just a fact, whether we like it or not - it's a fact.

Possible simple solution: Use any free email provider and simply have
the iCloud email server auto-forward (and then delete) the emails to
the new account.

Even simpler solution: Just turn on the iCloud backup, as long as you
don't exceed the storage limit.

Andreas Rutishauser

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Mar 10, 2018, 1:49:06 AM3/10/18

to

In article <p7v7r9$1sbr$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

> In article <news:fggi18...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:
>
> > It is called tight security and since you are so hung up on
> > security and hiding who you are, you should be wondering why
> > everybody isn't doing it instead of bitching because Apple
> > does.
>
> Think about the problem set as an adult would.
>
> On iOS, Apple makes it such that if you have an iCloud-domain mail address,
> then you can only use a password of your choosing on iOS if you use the
> Apple Mail MUA, but if you use any other MUA but Apple's MUA (as of June
> 15th 2017), then you must maintain a password that you don't even want in
> the first place, which is over and above your real password.

if you have two-factor authentification turned on for your Apple-ID you
have to use app-specific passwords to access iCloud content with third
party apps:
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204397>
This is not restricted to iOS, but also valid for macOS, Windows,
probably watchOS, tvOS. Can't talk for the real world of Android and
Unix derivates, but would think it is the same there.

If you don't have two-factor authentification turned on for your
Apple-ID?

Cheers
Andreas

--
MacAndreas Rutishauser, <http://www.MacAndreas.ch>
EDV-Dienstleistungen, Hard- und Software, Internet und Netzwerk
Beratung, Unterstuetzung und Schulung
<mailto:and...@MacAndreas.ch>, Fon: 044 / 721 36 47

Andreas Rutishauser

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Mar 10, 2018, 2:12:46 AM3/10/18

to

In article <p7v7rj$1sc3$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

Ragnusen Ultred <ragn...@ultred.com> wrote:

> In article <news:fgghu2...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd wrote:

> > Here's a link for your
> > reading pleasure:
> > https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204915

> Everything I presented is valid verified fact.
> 1. I created an iCloud-domain iCloud account this week (e.g., x...@iCloud.com)
> 2. I never turned on two-factor authorization for that account on the iPad.

from the article linked above:
Apple IDs created in iOS 10.3 or macOS 10.12.4 and later are protected
with two-factor authentication by default.

So, yes, you turned on two-factor authorisation.

> 3. I can easily log into that iCloud-domain mail account using Apple's MUA.
> 4. However, using Apple MUA app requires turning on the iCloud setting:
> Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off
> 5. Any other MUA but Apple's MUA requires a password not of your choosing!
>
> I empirically checked those facts, so I know them to be correct.
>
> I would /love/ for the conclusion to be wrong - so - if I erred, please let
> me know where, since I only use sentient adult logical thought processes.

And what is your problem?

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 10, 2018, 2:16:57 AM3/10/18

to

In article <news:andreas-301EBD...@news.individual.de>, Andreas

Rutishauser wrote:

> f you have two-factor authentification turned on for your Apple-ID you
> have to use app-specific passwords to access iCloud content with third
> party apps:
> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204397>
> This is not restricted to iOS, but also valid for macOS, Windows,
> probably watchOS, tvOS. Can't talk for the real world of Android and
> Unix derivates, but would think it is the same there.
>
> If you don't have two-factor authentification turned on for your
> Apple-ID?

Hi Andreas,
Thank you for being an adult, which is a rarity on this iOS newsgroup.

I don't think, from the tests I ran anyway, that it matters whether you
have two-factor authentication on or not.
https://i.cubeupload.com/eiXEvh.jpg

The issue seems to be that Apple treats non-Apple MUAs differently than the
Apple MUA, as of June 15th, 2017 anyway...
https://i.cubeupload.com/cpuwfi.jpg

Everyone seems to be confusing the two issues, and, well, maybe they're
related, but my empirical results definitely show the problem even when
two-factor authentication was clearly never turned on.

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 10, 2018, 2:23:01 AM3/10/18

to

In article <news:andreas-D1DDE5...@news.individual.de>, Andreas

Rutishauser wrote:

> from the article linked above:
> Apple IDs created in iOS 10.3 or macOS 10.12.4 and later are protected
> with two-factor authentication by default.
>
> So, yes, you turned on two-factor authorisation.

First off, thank you for being an adult, which is rare in this ng.

Secondly, I agree that it's really hard to figure out /what/ Apple was
actually saying in that support article, so maybe it's on (as I comprehend
the English language better than most people do - and I contend that Apple
was cryptic in that discussion since you could take their sentences to mean
completely different things - which - if you read their public battery
apology - Apple is super adept at).

Nonetheless, what does this screenshot tell you about two-factor
authorization for my iCloud-domain Apple iD on the new iPad?
https://i.cubeupload.com/eiXEvh.jpg

It sure looks off to me.
Is it?

Ragnusen Ultred

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Mar 10, 2018, 2:30:52 AM3/10/18

to

In article <news:p7vubq$pbn$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Your Name wrote:

>> We're all talking about hitting the "iCloud" option.
>> http://i.cubeupload.com/ltJinM.jpg
>
> The original message did say they had tried to use the "Other" option
> and got the same result.

Fair enough. And thank you again for being an adult, which is hard to find
on this newsgroup.

> Possible simple solution: Use any free email provider and simply have
> the iCloud email server auto-forward (and then delete) the emails to
> the new account.

I agree with you that, once you know of this arbitrary restriction on
passwords of the users' choosing for all but the Mail MUA, you can ahead of
time avoid having an iCloud-domain address.

I didn't know what I know now when I set up the iPad, where I didn't know
how bad the situation got as of June 15th, 2017, with respect to Apple
revoking your privilege of using a password of your own choosing for all
but the Apple official MUA.

> Even simpler solution: Just turn on the iCloud backup, as long as you
> don't exceed the storage limit.

To both your points, the /last/ thing I want is iCloud backup, and 5GB is
downright puny but I don't understand how turning on iCloud backup solves
the problem of passwords not being of your own choosing.

How does turning on iCloud backup solve the problem at hand?

Lloyd Parsons

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Mar 10, 2018, 9:57:12 AM3/10/18

to

Except for the pesky fact that it was turned on by default, you should
have turned it off when setting up.

BTW seems Google does the same thing though not by default.

Lloyd Parsons

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Mar 10, 2018, 10:01:08 AM3/10/18

to

It would allow the use of Apple's mail app. Otherwise it wouldn't
solve your non-issue since Apple doesn't allow for turning it off after
the fact for relatively new Apple ID creations it seems. While I don't
find how it works to be onerous at all, I can understand it being an
issue for someone used to the lesser secure systems that doesn't want
the added security.

Of course, in your case, it isn't about anything other than something
to bitch about and troll with. :) BTW, it is a decent troll.

nospam

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Mar 10, 2018, 10:19:20 AM3/10/18

to

In article <andreas-301EBD...@news.individual.de>, Andreas

Rutishauser <and...@macandreas.ch> wrote:

>
> if you have two-factor authentification turned on for your Apple-ID you
> have to use app-specific passwords to access iCloud content with third
> party apps:
> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204397>
> This is not restricted to iOS, but also valid for macOS, Windows,
> probably watchOS, tvOS. Can't talk for the real world of Android and
> Unix derivates, but would think it is the same there.

it is.

<https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/185833?hl=en>
<https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12409/microsoft-account-app-pa
sswords-two-step-verification>
<https://www.fastmail.com/help/clients/apppassword.html>

Jolly Roger

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Mar 10, 2018, 11:55:13 AM3/10/18

to

On 2018-03-10, Lloyd Parsons <em...@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2018-03-10 07:30:51 +0000, Ragnusen Ultred said:
>
>> How does turning on iCloud backup solve the problem at hand?
>
> It would allow the use of Apple's mail app.

Please pay attention. It's not "iCloud backup" since it has absolutely
*nothing* to do with *backups*. The setting in question is for his
iCloud mail account at: Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail.
And he knows this has nothing to do with backups, but ignores it and
claims otherwise because: troll.

> Otherwise it wouldn't solve your non-issue since Apple doesn't allow
> for turning it off after the fact for relatively new Apple ID
> creations it seems.

What are you talking about? Of course you can turn it off - that's
precisely what is causing his manufactured "problem". He:
a) configured an iCloud mail account on the device, then
b) turned it off in Settings, then
c) turned around and complained that he could no longer send and receive
iCloud emails on the device, like a fucking moron.

Note that none of this has *anything* to do with iCloud backups (despite
his asinine insistence otherwise). And even if it did, of *course* you
can turn iCloud backups on or off at will on *any* iOS device since it
is *completely* *optional*.

> Of course, in your case, it isn't about anything other than something
> to bitch about and troll with. :) BTW, it is a decent troll.

No. It really isn't. It's fucking lame. And anyone with a clue sees
right through it.

Wilf

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Mar 10, 2018, 12:20:55 PM3/10/18

to

I'm watching this thread with huge amusement ... why do people get so
heated just in support (or otherwise) of a particular kind of
technology. I very much like Apple products and enjoy using them every
day but, really, this is like a form of worship or, worse, accusations
of idolatry! Can no-one answer a question without heaping insults on
someone who doesn't necessarily understand the technology? Sheesh! Cue,
more insults, I'm sure.

Wilf

Jolly Roger

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Mar 10, 2018, 1:48:08 PM3/10/18

to

It's unfortunate for you that you haven't watched the Apple news groups
for any length of time with as much interest. If you had, you'd know
that "Ragnusen Ultred" is a long-time resident Apple-hating nym-shifting
troll whose manufactured "problems" are thinly-disguised trolls aimed at
disrupting these otherwise peaceful newsgroups. Here's just a partial
list of his most recent nyms, which he changes regularly to avoid
filtering:

Paul B. Andersen, Adair Bordon, Liam O'Connor, Juan Camilo Blanco,
Alphonse Arnaud, Danny D., Vinny Perado, Whitney Ryan, Tony Cito, Adam
H. Kerman, Werner Obermeier, Steven Bornfeld, Winston_Smith, Mitch
Kaufmann, Paul M. Cook, E. Robinson, Alice J., P. Ng, Tam Nguyen, VPN
user, Joe Clock, Marob Katon, Chris Rangoon, AArdvarks, Conradt, Gustl
Hoffmann, Henry Jones, Tatsuki Takahashi, AL, Horace Algier, Karl
Schultz, Arthur Conan Doyle, Algeria Horan, Horace Algier, Raymond
Spruance III, Martin Chuzzlewit II, John Harmon, Yanis Bernard, Stijn De
Jong, Abe Swanson, Misha Vasiliev, Tomos Davies, Chaya Eve, Lionel
Muller, Roy Tremblay, Frank S, Chaya Eve, Blake Snyder, harry newton,
Harold Newton, ultred ragnusen, Ragnusen Ultred

In this particular thread, "Ragnusen" created an iCloud mail account on
his iOS device, then he disabled that account in Settings, and then he
turned around and created a thread here complaining that Apple's Mail
app won't work if you disable 'iCloud backups" - except backups have
absolutely nothing to do with his problem. He specifically disabled the
account after he created it. He manufactured this so-called "problem".
He does this over and over again to troll.

> why do people get so heated just in support (or otherwise) of a
> particular kind of technology.

That's a question you should ask "Ragnusen". He feigns ignorance about
manufacture "problems" in order to troll the Apple news groups and
belittle the complete strangers in these groups on a daily and hourly
basis, apparently having nothing else to do with his wasted life.

> I very much like Apple products and enjoy using them every day but,
> really, this is like a form of worship or, worse, accusations of
> idolatry!

Liar. Nobody here is idolizing Apple. All that is happening is regulars
here are calling this troll out on his obvious lies and trolls. You just
don't see it for what it is because you haven't been paying attention as
long as the rest of us have.

> Can no-one answer a question without heaping insults on someone who
> doesn't necessarily understand the technology? Sheesh! Cue, more
> insults, I'm sure.

You're new here. "Ragnusen" constantly claims Apple users are idiots,
just as he constantly claims Apple's operating systems and devices are
inferior to his beloved Linux/Android. You haven't seen it because you
haven't observed anything from him outside of this one little thread.
Stick around for a while and you will no doubt notice the pattern of
trolling from this individual. Of course you will have to recognize that
he changes his name frequently, and to identify him requires recognizing
his writing and conversational styles. The regulars who spend time in
these newsgroups instantly recognize it, but you may not if you don't
spend any time here.

Wilf

unread,

Mar 10, 2018, 1:54:30 PM3/10/18

to

On 10/03/2018 6:48pm, Jolly Roger wrote:

>> I very much like Apple products and enjoy using them every day but,
>> really, this is like a form of worship or, worse, accusations of
>> idolatry!
> Liar. Nobody here is idolizing Apple. All that is happening is regulars
> here are calling this troll out on his obvious lies and trolls. You just
> don't see it for what it is because you haven't been paying attention as
> long as the rest of us have.
>

I think my case rests ... I post once, and you already are jumping in to
calling me "Liar". If you yourself are not a troll, or at best a
seemingly very jumpy, aggressive person, why not say something like "I
don't agree with you. Nobody here is idolizing ..."?

Wilf

Jolly Roger

unread,

Mar 10, 2018, 2:08:21 PM3/10/18

to

On 2018-03-10, Wilf <wi...@replyto.newsgroup> wrote:

> On 10/03/2018 6:48pm, Jolly Roger wrote:
>
>>> I very much like Apple products and enjoy using them every day but,
>>> really, this is like a form of worship or, worse, accusations of
>>> idolatry!
>>
>> Liar. Nobody here is idolizing Apple. All that is happening is
>> regulars here are calling this troll out on his obvious lies and
>> trolls. You just don't see it for what it is because you haven't been
>> paying attention as long as the rest of us have.
>
> I think my case rests ... I post once, and you already are jumping in
> to calling me "Liar".

Pointing out trolls from a long-time resident troll isn't "idolizing
Apple". If you dislike being called out on an obvious lie, your should
stop lying.

> If you yourself are not a troll, or at best a seemingly very jumpy,
> aggressive person, why not say something like "I don't agree with you.
> Nobody here is idolizing ..."?

"I don't agree with you. Nobody here is idolizing."

All better? Or are you still dead set on supporting the resident
nym-switching Apple-hating troll?

Wilf

unread,

Mar 10, 2018, 2:11:35 PM3/10/18

to

On 10/03/2018 7:08pm, Jolly Roger wrote:

> On 2018-03-10, Wilf <wi...@replyto.newsgroup> wrote:
>> On 10/03/2018 6:48pm, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>
>>>> I very much like Apple products and enjoy using them every day but,
>>>> really, this is like a form of worship or, worse, accusations of
>>>> idolatry!
>>>
>>> Liar. Nobody here is idolizing Apple. All that is happening is
>>> regulars here are calling this troll out on his obvious lies and
>>> trolls. You just don't see it for what it is because you haven't been
>>> paying attention as long as the rest of us have.
>>
>> I think my case rests ... I post once, and you already are jumping in
>> to calling me "Liar".
>
> Pointing out trolls from a long-time resident troll isn't "idolizing
> Apple". If you dislike being called out on an obvious lie, your should
> stop lying.
>
>> If you yourself are not a troll, or at best a seemingly very jumpy,
>> aggressive person, why not say something like "I don't agree with you.
>> Nobody here is idolizing ..."?
>
> "I don't agree with you. Nobody here is idolizing."
>
> All better? Or are you still dead set on supporting the resident
> nym-switching Apple-hating troll?
>

I love you. I don't support anybody. I'm just saying that I come to
these groups to get useful information, not to read gratuitous invective
- whether from an "Apple-hating troll" (er, is that not almost
complaining that someone isn't idolising Apple?), from you, or from
anyone else.

Wilf

Jolly Roger

unread,

Mar 10, 2018, 2:29:07 PM3/10/18

to

On 2018-03-10, Wilf <wi...@replyto.newsgroup> wrote:
> On 10/03/2018 7:08pm, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2018-03-10, Wilf <wi...@replyto.newsgroup> wrote:
>>> On 10/03/2018 6:48pm, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I very much like Apple products and enjoy using them every day
>>>>> but, really, this is like a form of worship or, worse, accusations
>>>>> of idolatry!
>>>>
>>>> Liar. Nobody here is idolizing Apple. All that is happening is
>>>> regulars here are calling this troll out on his obvious lies and
>>>> trolls. You just don't see it for what it is because you haven't
>>>> been paying attention as long as the rest of us have.
>>>
>>> I think my case rests ... I post once, and you already are jumping
>>> in to calling me "Liar".
>>
>> Pointing out trolls from a long-time resident troll isn't "idolizing
>> Apple". If you dislike being called out on an obvious lie, your
>> should stop lying.
>>
>>> If you yourself are not a troll, or at best a seemingly very jumpy,
>>> aggressive person, why not say something like "I don't agree with
>>> you. Nobody here is idolizing ..."?
>>
>> "I don't agree with you. Nobody here is idolizing."
>>
>> All better? Or are you still dead set on supporting the resident
>> nym-switching Apple-hating troll?
>
> I love you. I don't support anybody.

Your words and actions will bear that out - or not. At the moment,
you're definitely leaning towards supporting the troll. The regulars
here will no doubt give you the benefit of the doubt since you are
relatively new here for now; but continue down your current path of
sticking up for trolls and you'll end up in kill files right next to the
troll's numerous never-ending nyms.

> I'm just saying that I come to these groups to get useful information,
> not to read gratuitous invective - whether from an "Apple-hating

> troll" from you, or from anyone else.

Unfortunately, when you step into a pile of shit, you're going to get
stink on you. In this case, you've inadvertently stepped into the middle
of a multi-year, multi-thread conversation, the context of which is
largely unknown to you. Where you see "gratuitous invective", the rest
of us see a long, ongoing string of conversations with a nym-switching
troll whose aim is clearly to disrupt these news groups with
manufactured "problems" while belittling the complete strangers who post
here.

I find it very interesting, and perhaps telling, that you are ignoring
the fact that this particular "problem" being discussed in this
particular thread is a completely manufactured one: the troll created a
mail account for iCloud, disabled that very same account, then
complained that Apple's Mail client doesn't work if iCloud backups are
disabled, which is patently false. And even after being told that, he
continues to insist this falsity is the case. Rather than acknowledge
this fact, you are choosing to focus on other people who are correcting
him. Very interesting...

> (er, is that not almost complaining that someone isn't idolising
> Apple?),

By that logic, anyone who calls anyone out on their bad behavior is
"idolizing". Not a very sound argument.

Savageduck

unread,

Mar 10, 2018, 2:41:47 PM3/10/18

to

On Mar 10, 2018, Wilf wrote
(in article <p81al2$18o2$1...@gioia.aioe.org>):

If you are looking for information regarding iOS devices, or MacOS computer,
then ask your question. You should get a sincere enough response from many of
the regulars here, which in all likelihood is going to answer your question,
or provide a solution to your problem. Just do not expect to get a rational
response from the resident troll of frequently shiftling nyms. All you will
get from him is praise of the capabilities of his favored Android/Linux
devices, and his deliberate avoidance of all that is simple, and normal for
those of us long time users of Apple products. However, you are free to
choice to continue to read all of his verbal polution of this and other NGs.

Many of us filter his shifting nyms as they appear, so that the only time any
of us see his trollish posts is when others respond to him.

--

Regards,
Savageduck

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,

Mar 10, 2018, 6:20:43 PM3/10/18

to

In article <news:fgia26...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd Parsons wrote:

> Except for the pesky fact that it was turned on by default, you should
> have turned it off when setting up.
>
> BTW seems Google does the same thing though not by default.

Hi Lloyd,

I'm assuming you're an adult, so I have to ask a basic adult question,
which is whether you might be confusing these two things?

1. Two factor authorization
https://i.cubeupload.com/eiXEvh.jpg

...and...

2. App-specific passwords for non-iOS MUAs
https://i.cubeupload.com/cpuwfi.jpg

Are you confusing them in your response, since if you're not, you're going
to have to prove with actual facts that Google requires app-specific
passwords for non-Google MUAs - which - after all - is the main point here.

Please respond as an adult would, as I am treating you as if you are.

Thanks!

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,

Mar 10, 2018, 6:20:45 PM3/10/18

to

In article <news:100320181019133645%nos...@nospam.invalid>, nospam wrote:

> it is.
>
> <https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/185833?hl=en>
> <https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12409/microsoft-account-app-pa
> sswords-two-step-verification>
> <https://www.fastmail.com/help/clients/apppassword.html>

It's shocking that the entire belief system of Apple Apologists is built
upon absolutely zero facts, since you repeatedly don't seem to comprehend
that there is a difference between...

1. Two factor authorization
https://i.cubeupload.com/eiXEvh.jpg

...and...

2. App-specific passwords for non-iOS MUAs
https://i.cubeupload.com/cpuwfi.jpg

Is your repeated stellar lack of ability to comprehend facts due to the
fact that you apparently get /all/ your ideas only from Apple Marketing?

Wilf

unread,

Mar 10, 2018, 6:22:59 PM3/10/18

to

:D

Wilf

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,

Mar 10, 2018, 6:56:28 PM3/10/18

to

In article <news:fgia9i...@mid.individual.net>, Lloyd Parsons wrote:

>> To both your points, the /last/ thing I want is iCloud backup, and 5GB is
>> downright puny but I don't understand how turning on iCloud backup solves
>> the problem of passwords not being of your own choosing.
>>
>> How does turning on iCloud backup solve the problem at hand?
>
> It would allow the use of Apple's mail app. Otherwise it wouldn't
> solve your non-issue since Apple doesn't allow for turning it off after
> the fact for relatively new Apple ID creations it seems.

Thank you Lloyd for acting like an adult would, as adults have always been
in short supply on this iOS newsgroup.

The original question was why the iCloud setting has to be turned on, where
your answer appears to be that it just has to be turned on, case closed.

If that's the best answer we have for why, then so be it. The more
important question that came up in delving why is why Apple forces all MUAs
other than their own MUA to have app-specific passwords which are, by
definition, not passwords of the users' own choosing.

> While I don't
> find how it works to be onerous at all, I can understand it being an
> issue for someone used to the lesser secure systems that doesn't want
> the added security.

It's not the security so much that I object to as the iCloud. I don't want
any data from my phone stored on the iCloud.

I do realize that email has to be stored 'somewhere', at least temporarily,
but I would consider mail to be more on a "server" than on the "cloud"
(although I do agree that the distinction can easily be muddied).

All I want, is what anyone would want who doesn't want their data stored on
the iCloud, is to turn off /evertthing/ on the iOS device that puts my
personal data on the iCloud.

> Of course, in your case, it isn't about anything other than something
> to bitch about and troll with. :) BTW, it is a decent troll.

It's strange but it's a common trait of the Apple Apologists to label all
facts that they don't like, trolls, and to label all questions that they
don't like the answer to, as "bitches".

It should be noted that I participate on Windows, Android, and Linux
newsgroups, where the proportion of adults:children is hugely different
than on iOS newsgroups (which abound in childish sentiments such as you and
the rest of the Apple Apologists repeatedly display).

It's almost as if you feel threatened by facts.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,

Mar 10, 2018, 7:24:43 PM3/10/18

to

In article <news:0001HW.20546C7600...@news.giganews.com>,

Savageduck wrote:

> All you will
> get from him is praise of the capabilities of his favored Android/Linux
> devices, and his deliberate avoidance of all that is simple, and normal for
> those of us long time users of Apple products.

Hi Savageduck,

I ask you to prove your accusation, because I consider it baseless.

What you appear to be strenuously objecting to, are facts about iOS that
you simply don't like.

As one adult, presumably to another, I have to respectfully disagree that I
praise any one operating system over any other, which is an accusation
/only/ made on the iOS newsgroups (for reasons known only to the accusers).

* I simply tell the /truth/ about all operating systems. *

In fact, I simply tell the truth on Linux, e.g.,
- What's a good way to back up Gmail when you've reached the size limit?
- https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/6YHdHFcpGxs

In fact, I simply tell the truth on Android, e.g.,
- When you plug in your phone to usb on your computer, does your file
system mount on Windows 10?
- https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/qxztHvQevDY

In fact, I simply tell the truth on Windows, e.g.,
- SOLVED: How to download an ISO image for Office 2007 Pro in the year 2018
- http://www.pcbanter.net/showthread.php?t=1103137

It's only on the iOS newsgroups, that the truth is considered a troll.

Just as I would ask Jolly Roger why he considers the truth, a troll, I ask
you, Savageduck, why you consider the truth about iOS being praise of
Android/Linux/Windows?

Can you back up a single one of your statements, or, is your entire belief
system always comprised of exactly zero facts that back up your statements?

joe

unread,

Mar 10, 2018, 7:31:11 PM3/10/18

to

On 3/10/2018 5:56 PM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
>

> The original question was why the iCloud setting has to be turned on, where
> your answer appears to be that it just has to be turned on, case closed.
>

Mail is one of the services that iCloud provides. If you want to use it,
you have to leave it turned on. If you don't want to use it, turn it off.

The iCloud mail service is separate from the backup service. The setting
screen allows you to turn of each functionality.

> If that's the best answer we have for why, then so be it. The more
> important question that came up in delving why is why Apple forces all MUAs
> other than their own MUA to have app-specific passwords which are, by
> definition, not passwords of the users' own choosing.
>
>> While I don't
>> find how it works to be onerous at all, I can understand it being an
>> issue for someone used to the lesser secure systems that doesn't want
>> the added security.
>
> It's not the security so much that I object to as the iCloud. I don't want
> any data from my phone stored on the iCloud.

Then just disable iCloud and don't log in. Use of iCloud is not
required. The same applies to the App store.

>
> I do realize that email has to be stored 'somewhere', at least temporarily,
> but I would consider mail to be more on a "server" than on the "cloud"
> (although I do agree that the distinction can easily be muddied).

Then use a different email service. You are not required to use iCloud
email.

>
> All I want, is what anyone would want who doesn't want their data stored on
> the iCloud, is to turn off /evertthing/ on the iOS device that puts my
> personal data on the iCloud.
>

Then don't log in to iCloud, disable the iCloud feature on your iPad. It
is that simple.

>> Of course, in your case, it isn't about anything other than something
>> to bitch about and troll with. :) BTW, it is a decent troll.
>
> It's strange but it's a common trait of the Apple Apologists to label all
> facts that they don't like, trolls, and to label all questions that they
> don't like the answer to, as "bitches".

>
> It should be noted that I participate on Windows, Android, and Linux
> newsgroups, where the proportion of adults:children is hugely different
> than on iOS newsgroups (which abound in childish sentiments such as you and
> the rest of the Apple Apologists repeatedly display).
>
> It's almost as if you feel threatened by facts.
>

You need to realize the iOS devices are different than Android, Windows,
or Linux devices. You'd be better off learning what the iOS device you
have is and then try to configure it the way you want. Starting by
trying to make your iPad the same and your Android devices without
understanding what you actually have will just lead to frustrations on
your part.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,

Mar 10, 2018, 8:20:38 PM3/10/18

to

In article <news:p81tca$e9t$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, joe wrote:

> Mail is one of the services that iCloud provides. If you want to use it,
> you have to leave it turned on. If you don't want to use it, turn it off.

Thank you Joe for being an adult in how you responded, as adults are in
short supply on these iOS newsgroups.

I agree with your suggestion that you have to turn on this iCloud button if
you want to use the iCloud MUA to read iCloud-domain email:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

The original question was one of "Why", but what we learned is that there
is a Catch-22 of sorts, because if you turn that setting off, then you have
to use a different MUA, but if you use a different MUA, then you're forced
to use what Apple euphemistically refers to as an "app-specific password",
which is, by its very nature, a password not of the users' choosing.

> The iCloud mail service is separate from the backup service. The setting
> screen allows you to turn of each functionality.

Thank you again, Joe, for clarifying what Jolly Roger also clarified, which
is that the setting below is not an "iCloud backup" setting despite the
user of the word "iCloud" in the description of the setting:
Settings > Accounts & Passwords > iCloud > Mail = off

> Then just disable iCloud and don't log in. Use of iCloud is not
> required. The same applies to the App store.

Thank you Joe for your heartfelt suggestion of "just giving up", which I
know to be common for many users, but it's not my style to "just give up".

Of course, if users don't "just give up", as of June 15th, 2017, Apple
forces them to employ "app-specific" passwords not of their choosing, so,
there is a penalty enforced by Apple for those users who opt to not "just
give up".

In short, these are the options if you have an iCloud-domain Apple ID:
1. You can turn on that iCloud setting - which enables you to use a
password of your own choosing, or,
2. You can turn off that iCloud setting - but then you can never again use
a password of your own choosing.

Those are the only two options, as far as anyone here has stated.
Are they not?

> Then use a different email service. You are not required to use iCloud
> email.

Unfortunately, you are forced, by Apple, to have an Apple ID, and, hence,
you have to /create/ an ID somehow, where, for both Android and for iOS,
the simplest approach is to create a bogus ID such as x...@iCloud.com (which
is what I did).

The problem comes /after/ you've satisfied that forced requirement of
creating an Apple ID, which is, as stated above...
a. If you turn on the iCloud setting to use iOS Mail, you can use a
password of your own choosing, but,
b. If you turn off that iCloud setting to use a non-iOS MUA, you can never
again use a password of your own choosing (after June 15th, 2017).

These are accurately stated facts, are they not?

> Then don't log in to iCloud, disable the iCloud feature on your iPad. It
> is that simple.

I appreciate your repeated advice to "just give up", and, while it wasn't
unexpected of this newsgroup, I tend to not "just give up" whenever I'm
confronted with an artificial limitation imposed by the Apple mothership.

I do the same on Windows and Linux and Android, where "just give up" is
anathema to me.

It's only on an iOS newsgroup that "just give up" seems to be so common
that people get ridiculed for not "just giving up".

> You need to realize the iOS devices are different than Android, Windows,
> or Linux devices.

Thanks Joe for your heartfelt advice that iOS devices are different than
all other common computing devices, all of which I'm intimately familiar
with, and, you'll note, I post prolifically on the Windows, Linux, and
Android newsgroups as well as on iOS newsgroups - since I have all of those
platforms.

While iOS devices are certainly less funcdtional overall than all other
devices, and while iOS devices require desktop computers to do some of the
simplest things that other devices just do, I prefer not to "just give up"
whenever I'm confronted with the inherent limitations of iOS devices.

For example, you'll note, that I slide files back and forth from and to iOS
from and to Windows and Linux computers in the real world, without
installing anything on the Windows and Linux computers.
http://i.cubeupload.com/uyot4R.jpg

This isn't something that is inherently obvious how to do for iOS devices,
mainly because Apple considers the real world (e.g., Linux) to be "not
supported", so we're always left with only two choices when trying to
interface with the real world:
a. Just give up, or,
b. Solve the problem.

To that end, for example, I chose not to "just give up", but to solve the
problem by testing these iOS freeware software applications on my new iOS
device:\
http://i.cubeupload.com/txh6HD.jpg

Where I've honed the potential real-world solutions to this short list:
http://i.cubeupload.com/P6Liet.jpg

Hence, my point is that your heartfelt advice to "just give up" is fine,
but it doesn't work for a person like me, who enjoys having devices that
interface with each other in the real world even though Apple doesn't
support interfacing its devices with the real world.

> You'd be better off learning what the iOS device you
> have is and then try to configure it the way you want.

Thanks again Joe for your heartfelt advice, where you may note that I've
owned iOS devices since the days of iOS 7.0.0 transition to iOS 7.0.1 when
Linux connectivity was shattered by Apple, which is where I learned the
hard way that, at Apple, the real world is "not supported".

So I've been learning how to interface iOS with the real world for quite
some time now, where you'll note that the Apple Apologists always love to
say it's complex, but it's only complex to get iOS devices to work
seamlessly in the real world because Apple makes it complex.

They even state on their own web site that they don't support the very
devices that many of us use every day, which, of course, makes their lives
easier, but which is why many iOS users are so used to "just giving up"
that they don't even realize that's what they do day in and day out.

In contrast, I prefer to find a solution that works in the real world.

> Starting by
> trying to make your iPad the same and your Android devices without
> understanding what you actually have will just lead to frustrations on
> your part.

I respect your opinion that iOS mobile devices are vastly different than
Android mobile devices, but I respectfully beg to differ in that I posit
that /all/ consumer mobile devices do the same thing.

People use them to make phone calls, to send and receive texts, to do
geolocation, to help them find information, to snap photos, to remind them
of things, etc.

I posit that all mobile devices do essentially the same things, just as I
posit all home-use desktop computers do essentially the same things.

I don't say you're wrong in stating that iOS isn't the same as Android, but
I will respectfully disagree with anyone who says that it's ok to "just
give up" when expecting iOS to interface in the real world, just as I
expect Android, Windows, & Linux to interface in the real world.

Thank you again for being an adult, which is in short supply on these iOS
newsgroups.

Ragnusen Ultred

unread,

Mar 10, 2018, 8:21:38 PM3/10/18

to

In article <news:p81tca$e9t$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, joe wrote:

> Mail is one of the services that iCloud provides. If you want to use it,
> you have to leave it turned on. If you don't want to use it, turn it off.