smallest wired keyboard?

[Eli the Bearded]

(Note crosspost.)

I've seen bluetooth keyboards about the size of a small TV remote:

https://www.amazon.com/Miritz-Wireless-Keyboard-Touchpad-Control/dp/B01LZIIH24/

That size is perfect, but I'd really prefer USB not bluetooth. USB just
works, and bluetooth just has pairing issues so often. I'm not looking
for "large enough to touchtype on" but I am looking for QWERTY and
basic shell and vi keys.

My usage would be for both Raspberry Pi and for Android. I did some web
searches and found a ~4 year old forum post with a recomendation
specifically for Pi use, but (a) that product is discontinued and (b) it
was much larger anyway, more than twice as tall and twice as wide.

Anyone know of such a thing at a not-too-outrageous price?

Elijah
------
might consider smaller keyboards, too

[sms]

On 4/13/2022 4:11 PM, Eli the Bearded wrote:
> (Note crosspost.)
>
> I've seen bluetooth keyboards about the size of a small TV remote:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Miritz-Wireless-Keyboard-Touchpad-Control/dp/B01LZIIH24/

That is not Bluetooth. It's 2.4GHz wireless with a USB-A 2.4 GHz
receiver. You'd need a USB-C OTG to USB-A adapter, for the 2.4 GHz
receiver, to use it with an Android phone.

The advantage of the 2.4 GHz devices is that no Bluetooth drivers are
needed. They work fine with Android phones with none of the Bluetooth
pairing issues, plus they use much less power than a Bluetooth keyboard,
so you don't have to charge them as often.

The disadvantage is that you have to plug the USB-A 2.4 GHz receiver
into the phone. I haven't seen any USB-C size 2.4GHz receivers so you
have to use an OTG adapter.

See <https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003260924140.html>

[Computer Nerd Kev]

In comp.sys.raspberry-pi Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:
>
> Anyone know of such a thing at a not-too-outrageous price?

Probably an outrageous price, but this seems to be made as an
exact response to your problem:
https://www.tindie.com/products/bobricius/mini-piqwerty-usb-keyboard/

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

[Patrick]

I have two of these, I can use them on anything with a USB socket.

(Search term 'wireless mini keyboard i8 air mouse keypad')

Example on On Ebay;

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313857313144?epid=18040061536&hash=item49135a8978:g:KDIAAOSw-vpfKZBC

Above has a clear picture of it's country layout (not UK).

[sms]

On 4/14/2022 4:24 AM, Patrick wrote:
> On 14/04/2022 00:11, Eli the Bearded wrote:
>> (Note crosspost.)
>>
>> I've seen bluetooth keyboards about the size of a small TV remote:
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/Miritz-Wireless-Keyboard-Touchpad-Control/dp/B01LZIIH24/
>>
>>
>> That size is perfect, but I'd really prefer USB not bluetooth. USB just
>> works, and bluetooth just has pairing issues so often. I'm not looking
>> for "large enough to touchtype on" but I am looking for QWERTY and
>> basic shell and vi keys.
>>
>> My usage would be for both Raspberry Pi and for Android. I did some web
>> searches and found a ~4 year old forum post with a recomendation
>> specifically for Pi use, but (a) that product is discontinued and (b) it
>> was much larger anyway, more than twice as tall and twice as wide.
>>
>> Anyone know of such a thing at a not-too-outrageous price?
>>
>> Elijah
>> ------
>> might consider smaller keyboards, too
>
> I have two of these, I can use them on anything with a USB socket.
>
> (Search term 'wireless mini keyboard i8 air mouse keypad')

Except that he explicitly stated that he wanted a _wired_ keyboard.

Part of the confusion is that what he really appears to not want is a
Bluetooth keyboard. It is true that Bluetooth can sometimes be
problematic in terms of pairing and also in terms of power consumption.

The link the original poster provided was not for a Bluetooth keyboard
it was for a 2.4 GHz keyboard with its own receiver. In my experience
These are much less finicky than a Bluetooth keyboard. There's no
Bluetooth pairing required and it will work with most any Android or
other device (except of course iOS devices with Lightning ports).

The upside of a Bluetooth keyboard and/or mouse is that there's no need
for a USB receiver module.

I have a mouse that is switchable between 2.4 GHz and Bluetooth, and it
comes with a 2.4 GHz receiver. But the mini-keyboards I've seen are all
one or the other, and not switchable.

[John Doe]

Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

> (Note crosspost.)
>
> I've seen bluetooth keyboards about the size of a small TV remote:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Miritz-Wireless-Keyboard-Touchpad-Control/dp/B01LZIIH24/
>
> That size is perfect, but I'd really prefer USB not bluetooth.

I would ask in...

alt.comp.os.windows-10

[nospam]

In article <t39fih$v6n$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>
> Part of the confusion is that what he really appears to not want is a
> Bluetooth keyboard. It is true that Bluetooth can sometimes be
> problematic in terms of pairing and also in terms of power consumption.

bluetooth is *extremely* reliable. very rarely is it a problem.

> The link the original poster provided was not for a Bluetooth keyboard
> it was for a 2.4 GHz keyboard with its own receiver. In my experience
> These are much less finicky than a Bluetooth keyboard.

your experience is different than the rest of the world, plus those
dongles are often lost, rendering such a keyboard or mouse completely
useless.

> There's no
> Bluetooth pairing required and it will work with most any Android or
> other device (except of course iOS devices with Lightning ports).

it absolutely will work with ios. both a wireless usb keyboard with a
dongle or a wired usb keyboard will work.

all that's needed is a lightning-usb adapter, just as android will need
a usb-c to usb-a adapter (or micro-usb for older android devices).

of course, a standard bluetooth keyboard will work with both ios and
android without needing any adapters or transceivers.

> The upside of a Bluetooth keyboard and/or mouse is that there's no need
> for a USB receiver module.

that is a significant upside.

wireless keyboards that require a usb adapter and use a usb port have
almost no advantage over a wired keyboard that use the same usb port.

[sms]

On 4/14/2022 8:45 AM, sms wrote:

<snip>

> I have a mouse that is switchable between 2.4 GHz and Bluetooth, and it
> comes with a 2.4 GHz receiver. But the mini-keyboards I've seen are all
> one or the other, and not switchable.

Actually there is a switchable Bluetooth/2.4 GHz model, see
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TS7TQ8J/>.

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

> your experience is different than the rest of the world, plus those
> dongles are often lost, rendering such a keyboard or mouse completely
> useless.

Didn't nospam advocate for iPhone dongles to replace the missing aux port?
--
Apple's strategy is to remove basic functionality so that you buy it back.

[nospam]

In article <t39p5k$io6$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli

<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

>
> Didn't nospam advocate for iPhone dongles to replace the missing aux port?

no, nor has there ever been an 'aux port' to go missing.

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

>> Didn't nospam advocate for iPhone dongles to replace the missing aux port?
>
> no, nor has there ever been an 'aux port' to go missing.

Semantics.

What do you want to call the "courageous" missing port then?

And why did you advocate for dongles to replace that missing functionality?

[nospam]

In article <t39qae$12jc$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli

<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

>
> >> Didn't nospam advocate for iPhone dongles to replace the missing aux port?
> >
> > no, nor has there ever been an 'aux port' to go missing.
>
> Semantics.

nope.

> What do you want to call the "courageous" missing port then?

analog headphone jack, which is not the same as an 'aux port'.

> And why did you advocate for dongles to replace that missing functionality?

i didn't, mainly because there is no need for any dongle.

the headphones *in* *the* *box* plugged directly into the phone without
needing anything extra.

[druck]

On 14/04/2022 00:11, Eli the Bearded wrote:

> (Note crosspost.)
>
> I've seen bluetooth keyboards about the size of a small TV remote:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Miritz-Wireless-Keyboard-Touchpad-Control/dp/B01LZIIH24/
>
> That size is perfect, but I'd really prefer USB not bluetooth. USB just
> works, and bluetooth just has pairing issues so often. I'm not looking
> for "large enough to touchtype on" but I am looking for QWERTY and
> basic shell and vi keys.

I have one very similar to that, it uses a USB wireless dongle rather
than USB. It works ok, but is very small small and can be fiddly so only
suitable for occasional use, like controlling a media player. You have
to slow down repeating characters or it only registers one press. The
one I have isn't backlit, but there are variants which are.

Slightly larger and much better solution is this one.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07RNCJ39B/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It can be used with a wireless dongle or Bluetooth. The buttons are more
comfortable to use, so can be used for small amounts of typing, although
the layout is slightly non standard. Its backlit so great for using in
the dark, other highlights are the scroll wheel, two finger gestures on
the touchpad, and the left and right mouse buttons on top of the units.

---druck

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

> In article <t39qae$12jc$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
> <sp...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>>> Didn't nospam advocate for iPhone dongles to replace the missing aux port?
>>>
>>> no, nor has there ever been an 'aux port' to go missing.
>>
>> Semantics.
>
> nope.

A GSM Arena search <https://www.gsmarena.com/search.php3?> calls it:
"3.5mm jack"

>> What do you want to call the "courageous" missing port then?
>
> analog headphone jack, which is not the same as an 'aux port'.

A search shows 6,476 "courageous" phones that have the industry standard
functionality of the 3.5mm jack which does many things which are
_impossible_ do to without (just as an sd card does useful things which
are impossible to do without).

This is a list of the phones that support the industry standard 3.5mm jack.
<https://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?chk35mm=selected>
Unfortunately the laughably primitive latest iPhones aren't in that list.

Hell, there's not even a _single_ iPhone ever made with a modern battery.
And modern functionality of a fast charger is missing from the iPhone box.
So are the missing headphones which made Apple tens of billions of dollars!

Nobody ever said Apple wasn't a MARKETING powerhouse of the finest order.

One by one, Apple's strategy is to _cripple_ the laughably archaic iPhone.
So that you're forced to buy back basic functionality Apple has removed.

>> And why did you advocate for dongles to replace that missing functionality?
>
> i didn't, mainly because there is no need for any dongle.

Apple removed the basic industry standard functionality of a wired headset.
If Apple hadn't removed the basic functionality, there wouldn't be the need.

> the headphones *in* *the* *box* plugged directly into the phone without
> needing anything extra.

What headphones comes *in the box" with the latest iPhones, nospam?
--
Apple made tens of billions by NOT shipping the charger & earbuds.

[Alan]

On 2022-04-14 2:10 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>
>> In article <t39qae$12jc$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
>> <sp...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>> Didn't nospam advocate for iPhone dongles to replace the missing
>>>>> aux port?
>>>>
>>>> no, nor has there ever been an 'aux port' to go missing.
>>>
>>> Semantics.
>>
>> nope.
>
> A GSM Arena search <https://www.gsmarena.com/search.php3?> calls it:
> "3.5mm jack"

Which is not "aux port"...

...is it?

:-)

>
>>> What do you want to call the "courageous" missing port then?
>>
>> analog headphone jack, which is not the same as an 'aux port'.
>
> A search shows 6,476 "courageous" phones that have the industry standard
> functionality of the 3.5mm jack which does many things which are
> _impossible_ do to without (just as an sd card does useful things which
> are impossible to do without).

It's not an industry standard.

>
> This is a list of the phones that support the industry standard 3.5mm jack.
> <https://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?chk35mm=selected>
> Unfortunately the laughably primitive latest iPhones aren't in that list.

Deciding to provide a different solution isn't "primitive"

>
> Hell, there's not even a _single_ iPhone ever made with a modern battery.
> And modern functionality of a fast charger is missing from the iPhone box.
> So are the missing headphones which made Apple tens of billions of dollars!
>
> Nobody ever said Apple wasn't a MARKETING powerhouse of the finest order.
>
> One by one, Apple's strategy is to _cripple_ the laughably archaic iPhone.
> So that you're forced to buy back basic functionality Apple has removed.
>

You mean there aren't Lightning earphones?

>>> And why did you advocate for dongles to replace that missing
>>> functionality?
>>
>> i didn't, mainly because there is no need for any dongle.
>
> Apple removed the basic industry standard functionality of a wired headset.

No. They did not.

> If Apple hadn't removed the basic functionality, there wouldn't be the
> need.
>
>> the headphones *in* *the* *box* plugged directly into the phone without
>> needing anything extra.
>
> What headphones comes *in the box" with the latest iPhones, nospam?

None. What of it?

Do all Android phones come with headphones?

[nospam]

In article <t3a2k4$gob$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli

<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

>
> Apple removed the basic industry standard functionality of a wired headset.

they didn't remove any functionality. they simply switched to a digital
headphone jack and included wired headsets in the box that plugged
directly into the phone, *without* any adapters or dongles.

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

>> Apple removed the basic industry standard functionality of a wired headset.
>
> they didn't remove any functionality. they simply switched to a digital
> headphone jack and included wired headsets in the box that plugged
> directly into the phone, *without* any adapters or dongles.

You proved my point for me.
Apple pulls these marketing tricks to make you buy back what they removed.

[nospam]

In article <t3ccqp$1o86$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli

<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

> Apple pulls these marketing tricks to make you buy back what they removed.

there's nothing to buy back and apple *added* functionality not
previously present.

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

>> Apple pulls these marketing tricks to make you buy back what they removed.
>
> there's nothing to buy back and apple *added* functionality not
> previously present.

a. Apple's strategy is to slowly remove basic functionality - one at a time.
b. Each year Apple gives a _different_ excuse for the loss of functionality.
c. Yet, it's always so that you must _buy_ the missing functionality back.

Besides...
1. How did Apple "add" functionality when they _never_ had the
in-device _portable_ storage capacity that almost all other phones have?

2. How did Apple "add" functionality when Apple _removed_ the industry
standard 3.5mm jack which never negated bluetooth if people wanted it?

3. How did Apple "add" functionality by subsequently removing the headphones
from the box which they needed to add when they removed the 3.5mm jack?

4. How did Apple "add" functionality when they then removed the charging
brick from the box so now people have to shop for a proper fast charger?

5. How did Apple "add" functionality when they _crippled_ webkit so that it
can't possibly have the privacy functionality of the Tor Browser?

The list can go on forever given the reason the iPhone is crippled in app
functionality isn't the lack of hardware so much as the lack of the ability
of developers to meet demand because Apple _refuses_ to allow them in the
App Store.

Apple cripples iOS by preventing app functionality.
There's a ton of useful app functionality on Android that isn't on iOS.
--
And yet, there's _zero_ app functionality on iOS not _already_ on Android.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:03:15 -0400
nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <t3a2k4$gob$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli
> <sp...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Apple removed the basic industry standard functionality of a wired
> > headset.
>
> they didn't remove any functionality. they simply switched to a digital

Yes they did - specifically they removed the ability to use
analogue headphones/headsets.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

[Alan]

Apple replaced one method of connecting headphones/earbuds with another.

[Alan]

On 2022-04-15 11:56 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>
>>> Apple pulls these marketing tricks to make you buy back what they
>>> removed.
>>
>> there's nothing to buy back and apple *added* functionality not
>> previously present.
>
> a. Apple's strategy is to slowly remove basic functionality - one at a
> time.
> b. Each year Apple gives a _different_ excuse for the loss of
> functionality.
> c. Yet, it's always so that you must _buy_ the missing functionality back.
>
> Besides... 1. How did Apple "add" functionality when they _never_ had
> the   in-device _portable_ storage capacity that almost all other phones
> have?
>
> 2. How did Apple "add" functionality when Apple _removed_ the industry
> standard 3.5mm jack which never negated bluetooth if people wanted it?

It's not an industry standard.

GSMArena shows 2519 phones currently available or coming soon.

Only 1994 have a 3.5mm audio jack.

>
> 3. How did Apple "add" functionality by subsequently removing the
> headphones
>   from the box which they needed to add when they removed the 3.5mm jack?

Not including an accessory is NOT "remov[ing] basic functionality".

>
> 4. How did Apple "add" functionality when they then removed the charging
>   brick from the box so now people have to shop for a proper fast charger?

Same rebuttal.

>
> 5. How did Apple "add" functionality when they _crippled_ webkit so that it
>   can't possibly have the privacy functionality of the Tor Browser?

Choosing not to do something is not removing functionality.

[nospam]

In article <20220415194844.24fd...@eircom.net>, Ahem A

Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> > > Apple removed the basic industry standard functionality of a wired
> > > headset.
> >
> > they didn't remove any functionality. they simply switched to a digital
>
> Yes they did - specifically they removed the ability to use
> analogue headphones/headsets.

because digital headphones offer more features and better reliability.

[nospam]

In article <t3cffi$nda$1...@dont-email.me>, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

>
> Apple replaced one method of connecting headphones/earbuds with another.

yep, and one that has more functionality and better reliability than
what it replaced.

sales went *up*, which means nobody cared, other than a tiny, yet very
vocal minority of apple haters who have nothing better to do than bash.

and why is this crossposted to raspberry pi anyway? it has absolutely
nothing to do with raspberry pi, but since it is, the raspberry pi zero
doesn't have an analog headphone jack, nor does it come with a power
adapter either. think about that, a computer that doesn't come with a
power adapter.

[alister]

On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:05:53 -0700, Alan wrote:

> On 2022-04-15 11:56 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
>> nospam wrote:
>>
>>>> Apple pulls these marketing tricks to make you buy back what they
>>>> removed.
>>>
>>> there's nothing to buy back and apple *added* functionality not
>>> previously present.
>>
>> a. Apple's strategy is to slowly remove basic functionality - one at a
>> time.
>> b. Each year Apple gives a _different_ excuse for the loss of
>> functionality.
>> c. Yet, it's always so that you must _buy_ the missing functionality
>> back.
>>
>> Besides... 1. How did Apple "add" functionality when they _never_ had
>> the   in-device _portable_ storage capacity that almost all other
>> phones have?
>>
>> 2. How did Apple "add" functionality when Apple _removed_ the industry
>> standard 3.5mm jack which never negated bluetooth if people wanted it?
>
> It's not an industry standard.
>
> GSMArena shows 2519 phones currently available or coming soon.
>
> Only 1994 have a 3.5mm audio jack.
>

so the vast majority, it is also the standard format for headphones on
almost all legacy audio devices. if not an actual official standard then
at lease a defacto one.

>
>> 3. How did Apple "add" functionality by subsequently removing the
>> headphones
>>   from the box which they needed to add when they removed the 3.5mm
>>   jack?
>
> Not including an accessory is NOT "remov[ing] basic functionality".
>

but it is removing functionality that previous models had - the point that
was being made but you deliberately chose to distort it to support your
need to be contrary to the majority opinion

>
>> 4. How did Apple "add" functionality when they then removed the
>> charging
>>   brick from the box so now people have to shop for a proper fast
>>   charger?
>
> Same rebuttal.
>

A charger is an accessory? only by the most pedantic of definitions as the
device cannot operate without a means of charging.
Removal of the PSU is clearly a cost saving exercise (for apple as they do
not appear to pass it on to the consumer) & as Apple use proprietary
charging skts forces users who don't already have one to spend additional
cash

>

>> 5. How did Apple "add" functionality when they _crippled_ webkit so
>> that it
>>   can't possibly have the privacy functionality of the Tor Browser?
>
> Choosing not to do something is not removing functionality.
>

>
>> The list can go on forever given the reason the iPhone is crippled in
>> app functionality isn't the lack of hardware so much as the lack of the
>> ability of developers to meet demand because Apple _refuses_ to allow
>> them in the App Store.
>>
>> Apple cripples iOS by preventing app functionality.
>> There's a ton of useful app functionality on Android that isn't on iOS.

I see that you are trying to make this news group as unbearable as others
you frequent with your deliberate attempts to provoke & continue
controversy to absurdity.




--
When a lion meets another with a louder roar,
the first lion thinks the last a bore.
-- G. B. Shaw

[alister]

replaces a universal interface with a proprietary one that can only be
sourced from Apple of an Apple licensed supplier.



--
How do you power off this machine?
-- Linus, when upgrading linux.cs.helsinki.fi, and after using the
machine
for several months

[alister]

How is it improved?
Audio is still supplied to the ear by tiny speakers receiving an analog
voltage.
all that has happened is the audio decode & amplification circuits have
been removed from the phone & moved to the headphone cable.
quality is dependent on the quality of those circuits & simply removes it
form Apples concerns




--
Death is only a state of mind.

Only it doesn't leave you much time to think about anything else.

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

>>> > Apple removed the basic industry standard functionality of a wired
>>> > headset.
>>>
>>> they didn't remove any functionality. they simply switched to a digital
>>
>> Yes they did - specifically they removed the ability to use
>> analogue headphones/headsets.
>
> because digital headphones offer more features and better reliability.

Apple removed the basic functionality so that you have to buy it back.

Each time Apple removes industry standard functionality, their (admittedly
stellar) Marketing team comes up with an excuse for only half the story.

The story they told?
It's "courageous" (if you can believe that).

I'm not making that up.
Apple says they removed basic functionality so that you have to buy it back
in a "courageous" decision that their marketing team told them to try out.

And it worked.
Apple makes BILLIONS off that one simple removal of standard functionality.

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

>> Apple replaced one method of connecting headphones/earbuds with another.
>
> yep, and one that has more functionality and better reliability than
> what it replaced.

While I don't blame Apple for their profit motive in removing basic standard
functionality over time from the iPhone so that they can make billions of
dollars in increased revenue from people having to buy it back...

I do blame the average iOS user for falling for the oldest marketing trick
in the book.

Lost functionality is what it is.
Oh, and it's "courageous" too.

> sales went *up*, which means nobody cared, other than a tiny, yet very
> vocal minority of apple haters who have nothing better to do than bash.

I may own more Apple iOS devices than you do nospam, where the difference is
that I know that almost all Android phones come with this standard hardware.

Why, if it's ubiquitous on Android is it not needed on the iPhone?

> and why is this crossposted to raspberry pi anyway? it has absolutely
> nothing to do with raspberry pi, but since it is, the raspberry pi zero
> doesn't have an analog headphone jack, nor does it come with a power
> adapter either. think about that, a computer that doesn't come with a
> power adapter.

Then change the fup.

[Andy Burnelli]

alister wrote:

> Removal of the PSU is clearly a cost saving exercise (for apple as they do
> not appear to pass it on to the consumer) & as Apple use proprietary
> charging skts forces users who don't already have one to spend additional
> cash

Apple admittedly has perhaps the finest marketing team on this planet.
Each time Apple removes basic functionality - we get a _different_ excuse.
a. Lack of sdslot - use the iCloud!
b. Loss of 3.5mm jack - it's "courageous"
c. Loss of charging brick - it's "for the kids"
etc.

Yet - all end up causing you to buy the missing functionality back!
*It causes a buying decision that never needed to be made before*

There is a recent thread on the Apple newsgroup showing factual reports that
Apple made tens of _billions_ of dollars (in a variety of ways) by removing
the basic functionality that we speak of here.
*Time to charge YOUR phone from dead to full is what?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/c/D5mvSwHd4jM>

The estimate for 190 million devices is Apple saved in costs alone 6.5
billion dollars and then Apple made tens of billions more in increased
sales.
*Steve (sms) posted the cite to the report in this message*
<https://groups.google.com/g/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/c/D5mvSwHd4jM/m/5dBK6AFyFgAJ>

Bear in mind the correct charger _nobody_ has who bought any iPhone since
the correct 20 Watt charger _never_ came in any iPhone box in Apple's entire
history of selling billions of iPhones.

Note: Apple never tells you this. Apple "claims" you already have a charger,
but that's like telling you that you already have old used incandescent
bulbs that you can bring over to your new house which is designed for LEDs
which are what you want when you pay for a phone with 20W fast charging.

[Alan]

Which is changing. There are better solutions now.

The 3.5" floppy disk was a "defacto standard" too.

Should we still have those?

>>
>>> 3. How did Apple "add" functionality by subsequently removing the
>>> headphones
>>>   from the box which they needed to add when they removed the 3.5mm
>>>   jack?
>>
>> Not including an accessory is NOT "remov[ing] basic functionality".
>>
> but it is removing functionality that previous models had - the point that
> was being made but you deliberately chose to distort it to support your
> need to be contrary to the majority opinion

No, it's not. The functionality is:

"Plug headphones/earbuds"

And that functionality is still included.

>>
>>> 4. How did Apple "add" functionality when they then removed the
>>> charging
>>>   brick from the box so now people have to shop for a proper fast
>>>   charger?
>>
>> Same rebuttal.
>>
> A charger is an accessory? only by the most pedantic of definitions as the
> device cannot operate without a means of charging.

When the entire world already owns multiple chargers? Yes.

> Removal of the PSU is clearly a cost saving exercise (for apple as they do
> not appear to pass it on to the consumer) & as Apple use proprietary
> charging skts forces users who don't already have one to spend additional
> cash

Really? And you know for a fact that the price of the phones wouldn't
have been higher if they'd kept the charger as included?

>>
>
>>> 5. How did Apple "add" functionality when they _crippled_ webkit so
>>> that it
>>>   can't possibly have the privacy functionality of the Tor Browser?
>>
>> Choosing not to do something is not removing functionality.
>>
>
>>
>>> The list can go on forever given the reason the iPhone is crippled in
>>> app functionality isn't the lack of hardware so much as the lack of the
>>> ability of developers to meet demand because Apple _refuses_ to allow
>>> them in the App Store.
>>>
>>> Apple cripples iOS by preventing app functionality.
>>> There's a ton of useful app functionality on Android that isn't on iOS.
>
> I see that you are trying to make this news group as unbearable as others
> you frequent with your deliberate attempts to provoke & continue
> controversy to absurdity.

I see you're addressing comments I didn't make.

[Alan]

On 2022-04-15 1:08 p.m., alister wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 12:02:10 -0700, Alan wrote:
>
>> On 2022-04-15 11:17 a.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
>>> nospam wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Apple removed the basic industry standard functionality of a wired
>>>>> headset.
>>>>
>>>> they didn't remove any functionality. they simply switched to a
>>>> digital headphone jack and included wired headsets in the box that
>>>> plugged directly into the phone, *without* any adapters or dongles.
>>>
>>> You proved my point for me.
>>> Apple pulls these marketing tricks to make you buy back what they
>>> removed.
>>
>> Apple replaced one method of connecting headphones/earbuds with another.
>
> replaces a universal interface with a proprietary one that can only be
> sourced from Apple of an Apple licensed supplier.

Bluetooth is proprietary?

And if Lightning is proprietary (it is)...

<https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=lightning+earbuds&i=electronics&gclid=Cj0KCQjwr-SSBhC9ARIsANhzu14KA58YAQKEFPWWEn9ePoeZoYKnwqIC28B2rkkd9BVYXax-wWBqRrsaAtKnEALw_wcB&hvadid=325139092790&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001554&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=4738164876812016585&hvtargid=kwd-300328979423&hydadcr=4871_9337108&tag=googcana-20&ref=pd_sl_2wfxroaaea_e>

...it doesn't appear to be an impediment.

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

That is of little interest to the owner of a set of expensive and carefully
chosen headphones which are usable with just about everything except a
recent Apple phone - especially if they find Apple's offering uncomfortable.

[Alan]

On 2022-04-15 1:36 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> alister wrote:
>
>> Removal of the PSU is clearly a cost saving exercise (for apple as
>> they do not appear to pass it on to the consumer) & as Apple use
>> proprietary charging skts forces users who don't already have one to
>> spend additional cash
>
> Apple admittedly has perhaps the finest marketing team on this planet.
> Each time Apple removes basic functionality - we get a _different_ excuse.
> a. Lack of sdslot - use the iCloud!

iPhones never had an extra storage slot of any kind...

...so it is factually incorrect to claim that they "removed" that
functionality.

> b. Loss of 3.5mm jack - it's "courageous"
> c. Loss of charging brick - it's "for the kids"
>   etc.
>
> Yet - all end up causing you to buy the missing functionality back!
> *It causes a buying decision that never needed to be made before*
>
> There is a recent thread on the Apple newsgroup showing factual reports
> that
> Apple made tens of _billions_ of dollars (in a variety of ways) by removing
> the basic functionality that we speak of here.
> *Time to charge YOUR phone from dead to full is what?*
> <https://groups.google.com/g/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/c/D5mvSwHd4jM>
>
> The estimate for 190 million devices is Apple saved in costs alone 6.5
> billion dollars and then Apple made tens of billions more in increased
> sales.
> *Steve (sms) posted the cite to the report in this message*
> <https://groups.google.com/g/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/c/D5mvSwHd4jM/m/5dBK6AFyFgAJ>
>
>
> Bear in mind the correct charger _nobody_ has who bought any iPhone since
> the correct 20 Watt charger _never_ came in any iPhone box in Apple's
> entire
> history of selling billions of iPhones.

That's not even English.

>
> Note: Apple never tells you this. Apple "claims" you already have a
> charger,

Almost everyone does.

> but that's like telling you that you already have old used incandescent
> bulbs that you can bring over to your new house which is designed for LEDs
> which are what you want when you pay for a phone with 20W fast charging.

You want LED lighting for your phone?

[Alan]

Except if you get yourself the $10 adapter...

<yawn>

[sms]

On 4/15/2022 1:10 PM, alister wrote:

<snip>

> How is it improved?
> Audio is still supplied to the ear by tiny speakers receiving an analog
> voltage.
> all that has happened is the audio decode & amplification circuits have
> been removed from the phone & moved to the headphone cable.

Actually the A/D, D/A, and amplifier are still in the phone as well
because they're still needed for the phone's speakers and microphones.
They are simply duplicated in the Lightning to 3.5mm headphone adapter
(or in the very few Lightning ear pods).

The removal of the headphone jack was done for multiple reasons. First
it reduced manufacturing cost (at least after they stopped including the
Lightning to 3.5mm headphone adapter). Second, it eliminated a point of
failure since the headphone jack was one of the biggest points of
failure that was covered by the warranty or Apple Care. Third, it
encouraged MFi devices with royalties to Apple (since the 3.5mm
headphone jack had no royalties). Fourth, it made it easier to achieve
IP68. Fifth, and most important, it encouraged the sale of AirPods.

Some people don't realize that the 3.5mm headphone jack was used for a
lot more than just headphones. See #3a on page 14 of the document
<https://tinyurl.com/iOS-Android-Features>.

A lot of the peripherals that duplicate the lost functionality that used
the headphone jack have become much more expensive and much less
convenient, though some are better off using Android OTG.

“Apple has now removed the only open standard port available, forcing
companies to use their proprietary and royalty based Lightning connector.”

“It [the headphone jack] also sports a surprisingly robust three-channel
communication interface: One channel in (for the microphone) and two
channels out (for the left and right stereo channel). What not a lot of
people realize is that the headphone socket also supplies a tiny amount
of power.”

[nospam]

In article <20220415215856.c3af...@eircom.net>, Ahem A

Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:

> > > Yes they did - specifically they removed the ability to use
> > > analogue headphones/headsets.
> >
> > because digital headphones offer more features and better reliability.
>
> That is of little interest to the owner of a set of expensive and carefully
> chosen headphones which are usable with just about everything except a
> recent Apple phone - especially if they find Apple's offering uncomfortable.

such people are a tiny minority and don't normally use those headphones
with a smartphone of any kind because the sound quality from a phone of
any kind does not do justice to it.

but if they do want to use expensive and carefully chosen headphones,
they can choose their own d/a converter to justify their purchase,
whether it's a cheap $5-10 adapter from apple or a very fancy (and
overpriced) one from an audiophile manufacturer.

also note that those very same people would be in the very same
predicament with many android phones, including the google pixel series
and the latest samsung phones.

and since this is cross-posted to raspberry pi, they'd also have the
same issue with a pi zero.

[nospam]

In article <t3cjgh$1s9$3...@gioia.aioe.org>, alister

<aliste...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> all that has happened is the audio decode & amplification circuits have
> been removed from the phone & moved to the headphone cable.
> quality is dependent on the quality of those circuits & simply removes it
> form Apples concerns

or google, samsung, oneplus, etc., who also do not have an analog
headphone jack anymore.

that means that headphone makers can use their own d/a converter as
well as add additional functionality that is otherwise not possible,
including spatial audio, health sensors, noise cancellation that uses
the phone's noise cancellation functionality (which means no additional
cost or increase in size), as well as being significantly more
reliable.

users can also buy their own external d/a converter instead of being
limited to what the device maker decided to use.

[nospam]

In article <t3cjcj$1s9$2...@gioia.aioe.org>, alister

<aliste...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> > Apple replaced one method of connecting headphones/earbuds with another.
>
> replaces a universal interface with a proprietary one that can only be
> sourced from Apple of an Apple licensed supplier.

usb-c is also licensed, for the many android devices that do not have

[nospam]

In article <t3co6o$nnv$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> Actually the A/D, D/A, and amplifier are still in the phone as well
> because they're still needed for the phone's speakers and microphones.
> They are simply duplicated in the Lightning to 3.5mm headphone adapter
> (or in the very few Lightning ear pods).

lightning earpods are extremely common, having been included with
iphones for several years.

> The removal of the headphone jack was done for multiple reasons. First
> it reduced manufacturing cost (at least after they stopped including the
> Lightning to 3.5mm headphone adapter).

the cost savings is almost zero.

> Second, it eliminated a point of
> failure since the headphone jack was one of the biggest points of
> failure that was covered by the warranty or Apple Care.

that is correct. the analog headphone jack was a common point of
failure. lightning and usb-c headphones are *significantly* more
reliable.

> Third, it
> encouraged MFi devices with royalties to Apple (since the 3.5mm
> headphone jack had no royalties).

that is completely false. it has absolutely no effect on mfi devices.

> Fourth, it made it easier to achieve
> IP68.

true.

> Fifth, and most important, it encouraged the sale of AirPods.

nope. it did not. it had little to no effect on airpods, which weren't
even available when the change was made.

apple *included* headphones and an adapter, which means *nothing* extra
needed to be purchased.

as it turned out, almost nobody used the adapter so apple stopped
including it.

> Some people don't realize that the 3.5mm headphone jack was used for a
> lot more than just headphones.

what you don't realize is that lightning (and usb-c for android) is
capable of *much* more than what is possible with an analog headphone
jack.

> A lot of the peripherals that duplicate the lost functionality that used
> the headphone jack have become much more expensive and much less
> convenient, though some are better off using Android OTG.

that is false.
>
> łApple has now removed the only open standard port available, forcing
> companies to use their proprietary and royalty based Lightning connector.˛

or usb-c connector on android.

> łIt [the headphone jack] also sports a surprisingly robust three-channel
> communication interface:

so robust that by your own admission above, it's one of the most common
failure modes.

> One channel in (for the microphone) and two
> channels out (for the left and right stereo channel). What not a lot of
> people realize is that the headphone socket also supplies a tiny amount

> of power.˛

extremely tiny, barely enough to power an led.

meanwhile, lightning and usb-c can source a significantly higher amount
of power.

you're making a case for its removal.

[wolfgang kern]

On 15.04.2022 22:55, nospam wrote:

> apple *included* headphones and an adapter, which means *nothing* extra
> needed to be purchased.

Are you sure Apple includes "headphones and an adapter" in the iPhone 13?

[Alan]

Are you familiar with what "past tense" means?

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

> or google, samsung, oneplus, etc., who also do not have an analog
> headphone jack anymore.

You always blame everyone but Apple for _forcing_ Apple, wholly against
their free will, to remove basic functionality from the iPhone nospam.

Your repeated claim Apple has no marketing of their own is preposterous.

> that means that headphone makers can use their own d/a converter as
> well as add additional functionality that is otherwise not possible,
> including spatial audio, health sensors, noise cancellation that uses
> the phone's noise cancellation functionality (which means no additional
> cost or increase in size), as well as being significantly more
> reliable.

When you buy a new car for yourself, Apple's (stellar) marketing tells you
to trade back and forth, every single night, the old inefficient
incandescent bulbs from your wife's older car to your brand new shiny new
car (which was designed for LEDs).

While you're using the old incandescent bulbs, her car doesn't work
(because Apple wants you to _share_ the old technology between two cars!)

Apple's excuse for that iPhone 12 & iPhone 13 money-making clusterfuck?
*"It's green!"*
*THINK OF THE KIDS!!!!!!!*

> users can also buy their own external d/a converter instead of being
> limited to what the device maker decided to use.

Apple's strategy is to remove basic functionality from the iPhone so that

you have to buy it back.

Each time Apple's (admittedly stellar) marketing comes up with a new excuse.
a. It's courageous
b. It's for the kids
c. It's due to Apple-only iPhone-only iOS-specific battery chemistry
etc.

[Why must ARrlan lie?]

On 2022-04-15 3:26 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>
>> or google, samsung, oneplus, etc., who also do not have an analog
>> headphone jack anymore.
>
> You always blame everyone but Apple for _forcing_ Apple, wholly against
> their free will, to remove basic functionality from the iPhone nospam.

You always tell this lie.

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

> also note that those very same people would be in the very same
> predicament with many android phones, including the google pixel series
> and the latest samsung phones.

Change that preposterous "many" to a more realistic "select few" and even
so, *why do you always proclaim that Apple marketing is driven by Google?*

Apple likely spends more than any other tech company in marketing nospam,
and yet, you always claim Apple can only _follow_ what other companies do?

Does Apple have absolutely no free will as you always repeatedly claim?
--
*Does it surprise you Apple spends less in R&D than anyone in high tech?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/c/STrAkx09VYk/m/4Qr_Iuq5AwAJ>

[Alan]

On 2022-04-15 3:53 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>
>> also note that those very same people would be in the very same
>> predicament with many android phones, including the google pixel series
>> and the latest samsung phones.
>
> Change that preposterous "many" to a more realistic "select few" and even
> so, *why do you always proclaim that Apple marketing is driven by Google?*

He doesn't.

He's pointing out that this is a movement of more than just one company.

>
> Apple likely spends more than any other tech company in marketing
> nospam, and yet, you always claim Apple can only _follow_ what other
> companies do?

Got proof of Apple's spending?

Thought not.

[meff]

On 2022-04-15, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <ste...@eircom.net> wrote:
> That is of little interest to the owner of a set of expensive and carefully
> chosen headphones which are usable with just about everything except a
> recent Apple phone - especially if they find Apple's offering uncomfortable.

As someone who carefully chose their headphones, it should be obvious
to you (or I hope you'll do some research and figure it out) that
3.5mm TRS connectors and cables are terrible, a real worse-is-better
standard. The lines aren't balanced like XLR connectors, so the wire
is extremely noise sensitive. Many 3.5mm cables aren't shielded well
either. Put a smartphone next to a 3.5mm cable, even those that come
with audiophile headphones, and you'll probably hear harmonics from
your phone modem. The TRS wiring itself depends on the contacts on the
plug-connector which wear away a lot quicker than pretty much any
other connector. As an analog connector you can create capacitance at
the TRS connection itself which leads to odd frequency responses. XLR
and mini-XLR cables are much better cables than the crappy TRS
"standard" and used by audio professionals. They have firm
connections, balanced lines, and insulation between the lines that TRS
connectors do not have.

The advice to put a good DAC before the headphones
serves to keep the signal high-fidelity for as long as possible. It
encourages to short 3.5mm cable runs so that there's fewer
opportunities for noise, interference, or signal attenuation due to
weird capacitance issues. Really the advice to use a DAC is putting
lipstick on the TRS pig. A good solution is to either keep the signal
digital as long as possible and only translate it into analog at the
drivers or to use a purpose-built cable to carry analog signals like
XLRs.

TRS has very few advantages. One of them is that they're dirt cheap to
make. They only require thin gauge wire in their connectors. They're
easy to replace. It's relatively easy to understand what's happening
by placing probes on the contacts and seeing a waveform. They're even
simpler to modulate signals onto than a serial cable. TRS is a
worse-is-better standard. It's the bare-minimum needed to run analog
signals on a wire, any wire, without offering bare wiring or aligator
clips. From a fidelity, BOM cost, or footprint perspective using a
digital connector is far superior. You can even run long cabling to
speakers and not have the severe loss issues that come with a pure
analog connector at the low voltages being output on most audio
lines.

Getting angry at Apple over this is silly (as others have noted that
many Android phones have these features as well.) Apple has always
placed itself at the upper end of the market. If any company is
willing to throw away the trash known as the TRS connector for
quality, then it will be Apple. It is unfortunate that folks who have
headphones and headsets that connect via 3.5mm TRS cannot directly
connect anymore but they can buy a simple adapter and get the same
functionality. In the meantime the folks who are actually interested
in Hi-Fi audio can use better connectors than wires soldered into a
ring.

[nospam]

In article <t3cqt6$1p20$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, wolfgang kern

<now...@nospicedham.never.at> wrote:

>
> > apple *included* headphones and an adapter, which means *nothing* extra
> > needed to be purchased.
>
> Are you sure Apple includes "headphones and an adapter" in the iPhone 13?

note the tense.

apple included lightning headphones with the iphone 7, 7 plus, 8, 8
plus, x, xs, xs max, xr, 11 and 11 pro. they stopped including them
with the 12 because most people already had a set or never used them in
the first place.

apple included headphone adapters with the iphone 7, 7 plus, 8, 8 plus
and x, they stopped including adapters because people didn't use them.
instead, they either used the headphones included the box or not at
all.

sales continued to increase, which means it wasn't an issue whatsoever,
despite people who have nothing better to do than whine about it.

and as a bit of history, the first smartphone maker to not have an
analog headphone jack was *not* apple.

that title goes to the first *android* phone, way back in 2008, which
used a non-standard proprietary ext-usb port and didn't include an
adapter.

<https://www.engadget.com/2008-09-23-confirmed-t-mobile-g1-has-no-3-5mm-
headphone-jack.html>
...Like many recent HTCs (Touch HD notably excepted), the G1 eschews
a standard 3.5mm headphone jack for its proprietary ExtUSB connector,
meaning you'll need custom headphones or an adapter to plug in your
own. What's worse, the adapter won't be available immediately at
launch, just a bundled headset. Why, HTC? Why?

going back even further, feature phones had a 2.5mm jack or a
proprietary dock port, both of which needed an adapter to use standard
3.5mm headphones.

[nospam]

In article <4io6K.213407$OT%7.11...@fx07.iad>, meff

well said and all very much correct.

> Getting angry at Apple over this is silly (as others have noted that
> many Android phones have these features as well.) Apple has always
> placed itself at the upper end of the market. If any company is
> willing to throw away the trash known as the TRS connector for
> quality, then it will be Apple.

as it turns out, apple wasn't first smartphone maker to do so. that
title goes to the first android phone, the t-mobile g1 in 2008:

<https://www.engadget.com/2008-09-23-confirmed-t-mobile-g1-has-no-3-5mm-
headphone-jack.html>
...Like many recent HTCs (Touch HD notably excepted), the G1 eschews
a standard 3.5mm headphone jack for its proprietary ExtUSB connector,
meaning you'll need custom headphones or an adapter to plug in your
own. What's worse, the adapter won't be available immediately at
launch, just a bundled headset. Why, HTC? Why?

going back even further, feature phones either had a smaller 2.5mm jack
or a proprietary dock port, both of which required an adapter to use
standard headphones.

> It is unfortunate that folks who have
> headphones and headsets that connect via 3.5mm TRS cannot directly
> connect anymore but they can buy a simple adapter and get the same
> functionality.

they also represent a very, very small niche.

> In the meantime the folks who are actually interested
> in Hi-Fi audio can use better connectors than wires soldered into a
> ring.

yep, and they're not likely to be using a smartphone as a source
anyway, making it entirely a non-issue.

[Andy Burnelli]

meff wrote:

> Getting angry at Apple over this is silly (as others have noted that
> many Android phones have these features as well.)

Apologies (in advance) for being allergic to bullshit... :)
Please stop the bullshitting in defense of Apple's marketing strategies.

If you wish to be credible, then you need to get your facts correct.
Please say "select few" and not "many" since that's the facts.

Most people who don't know what they're talking about think it's a trend.
It's not.

You don't know the first thing about jacks if you say it's "most" phones.
You just don't.

It's a trend only for Apple products where it's obviously part of Apple's
strategy to remove functionality so that you're forced to buy it back.

The first time we covered this in detail, it was fewer than 1/2 of 1%.
No logical person would claim that half of one percent is "many" would they?

Obviously how you collect the statistics matters as that one half of one
percent was of all phones, so of course it matters _how_ you collect data.

But it's never "many" and always "a select few" if you want to be believed.
Let's run a search of the past five years worth of all phones, shall we?

FACT #1:
<https://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?nYearMin=2018&chk35mm=selected&sAvailabilities=1,2>
Of the phones released in the past five years, 1,710 have the standard jack.

FACT #2:
That's out of 2,202 phones released in the past five years (both types).
<https://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?nYearMin=2018&sAvailabilities=1,2>

Wouldn't you say 78% of current phones (including many iPhones) having the
industry standard jack are the "most" while a fifth that don't are the few?

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

> well said and all very much correct.

It's bullshit that "most" phones don't have the industry standard jack.
Over three quarters of all phones released in the past five years have it.
There's a good reason that *most phones* have the standard 3.5mm jack.

> as it turns out, apple wasn't first smartphone maker to do so. that
> title goes to the first android phone, the t-mobile g1 in 2008:

It's revealing nospam always makes the preposterous claim that Apple has no
free will whenever he is defending the _loss_ of iPhone functionality.

> going back even further, feature phones either had a smaller 2.5mm jack
> or a proprietary dock port, both of which required an adapter to use
> standard headphones.

If you believe nospam, Apple is wasting that tremendous amount of money they
spend in marketing since according to nospam, everyone else _forces_ Apple
to remove basic functionality from the iPhone year after year after year.

>> It is unfortunate that folks who have
>> headphones and headsets that connect via 3.5mm TRS cannot directly
>> connect anymore but they can buy a simple adapter and get the same
>> functionality.
>
> they also represent a very, very small niche.

The fact *most phones* have the industry standard jack is _not_ a niche.

>> In the meantime the folks who are actually interested
>> in Hi-Fi audio can use better connectors than wires soldered into a
>> ring.
>
> yep, and they're not likely to be using a smartphone as a source
> anyway, making it entirely a non-issue.

Given *most phones* have the jack, it's interesting that nospam always comes
up with preposterous excuses for why Apple _removed_ basic functionality.
--

[Alan]

On 2022-04-15 6:26 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> meff wrote:
>
>> Getting angry at Apple over this is silly (as others have noted that
>> many Android phones have these features as well.)
>
> Apologies (in advance) for being allergic to bullshit... :)
> Please stop the bullshitting in defense of Apple's marketing strategies.
>
> If you wish to be credible, then you need to get your facts correct.
> Please say "select few" and not "many" since that's the facts.

Of phones currently available it is more than 20% of all phones available.

>
> Most people who don't know what they're talking about think it's a trend.
> It's not.

Of phones from the last 4 years, it's nearly 25%

Of phones from the last 2 years, it's more than 40%.

Looks like a trend to me.

[nospam]

In article <t3d6k8$1942$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli

<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

> The fact *most phones* have the industry standard jack is _not_ a niche.

what matters is if it's actually *used* and it is not.

the space can be better used for other things that are more useful to
more people, especially given that an analog jack is redundant.

[Andy Burnelli]

nospam wrote:

>> The fact *most phones* have the industry standard jack is _not_ a niche.
>
> what matters is if it's actually *used* and it is not.

How often do you use a USB thumb drive?

You could argue that you only use it when you need it, right?
Which might not be all that often, right?

The loss of functionality you advocate for is like Apple removing the
industry standard USB-A ports on Apple computers which negates the use of a
simple USB thumb drive.

The point being it won't be there when you actually _need_ it to be there.

You'd then have to go out and buy a silly Apple gimmick just to get back the
lost functionality that shouldn't have been removed in the first place.

Which is exactly what Apple wants you to do.

> the space can be better used for other things that are more useful to
> more people, especially given that an analog jack is redundant.

Same can be said for Apple removing the standard USB-A port on its laptops.

[wolfgang kern]

On 16.04.2022 01:57, nospam wrote:

>> Are you sure Apple includes "headphones and an adapter" in the iPhone 13?
>
> note the tense.

It doesn't matter what Apple did ten years ago.
It matters what Apple does now.

Your position is untenable since Apple doesn't do what you said it does.

[Eli the Bearded]

In comp.sys.raspberry-pi, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 4/14/2022 4:24 AM, Patrick wrote:
>> On 14/04/2022 00:11, Eli the Bearded wrote:
>>> I've seen bluetooth keyboards about the size of a small TV remote:
>>> https://www.amazon.com/Miritz-Wireless-Keyboard-Touchpad-Control/dp/B01LZIIH24/
>>> That size is perfect, but I'd really prefer USB not bluetooth.
>> I have two of these, I can use them on anything with a USB socket.

Use them "wired" to a USB socket?

> Except that he explicitly stated that he wanted a _wired_ keyboard.

Yes.

> Part of the confusion is that what he really appears to not want is a
> Bluetooth keyboard.

I didn't know about the 2.4 GHz connection. Maybe that's more reliable
than bluetooth, maybe not. I'd still rather the wire. (Which probably
puts me in an extreme minority.)

> The upside of a Bluetooth keyboard and/or mouse is that there's no need
> for a USB receiver module.

And the downside of any thing not wired is batteries and moving it
between devices. Repairing for BT or moving dongles for this 2.4 GHz
thing.

So far Computer Nerd Kev has the best suggestion, one I would have
discounted as "too unfinished looking" (no edges? dust will get in
there) but maybe the best option available.

https://www.tindie.com/products/bobricius/mini-piqwerty-usb-keyboard/

It's small. It's USB. It's QWERTY. There's an escape key. But open
sides. Space key off in a corner. Three rows with no dedicated number
keys. It's pretty raw.

Not out of budget, but certainly more than I wanted to pay.

Elijah
------
for less than ideal

[Alan]

On 2022-04-15 8:11 p.m., Andy Burnelli wrote:
> nospam wrote:
>
>>> The fact *most phones* have the industry standard jack is _not_ a niche.
>>
>> what matters is if it's actually *used* and it is not.
>
> How often do you use a USB thumb drive?
>
> You could argue that you only use it when you need it, right?
> Which might not be all that often, right?
>
> The loss of functionality you advocate for is like Apple removing the
> industry standard USB-A ports on Apple computers which negates the use of a
> simple USB thumb drive.

No...

...because USB ports are MULTI-function...

...kind of like the Lightning port.

Ooops

[meff]

On 2022-04-16, Andy Burnelli <sp...@nospam.com> wrote:
> The loss of functionality you advocate for is like Apple removing the
> industry standard USB-A ports on Apple computers which negates the use of a
> simple USB thumb drive.

Oof I'm sorry you lost your parallel port. It must have stung when
they took those industry-standard connectors out of computers for
USB.

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 16 Apr 2022 06:19:28 GMT) it happened meff
<em...@example.com> wrote in <Qdt6K.40100$I_.3...@fx44.iad>:

I have a PCI par port card in one of my PCs
its the only real I/O on a PC.
Now with raspi we have GPIO, a BIG win!!!!

Apple is overpriced crap.

[Andy Burnelli]

Why not compare a modern Tesla to the old magtape of the days of yore?

What ceases to be shocking is how powerful Apple propaganda is on the
weakest brains who obtain most of their self esteem from Apple ads.

It's interesting that you equate the commonly useful USB-A port with the
no-longer-used parallel port which proves how much power Apple advertising
has on your feeble brain.

Clearly you have no education and a low IQ since a standard part of any
testing regimen is to see how people can discern similar with different.

Like Russian citizens, you have been fed the propaganda soup for so long
that you can't possibly comprehend that a floppy disk isn't the same thing
as a 3.5 jack in terms of modern commonly useful & oft-used functionality.
--
What ceases to be shocking is how powerful Apple propaganda is on the
weakest brains who obtain most of their self esteem from Apple ads.

[Andy Burnelli]

Jan Panteltje wrote:

> I have a PCI par port card in one of my PCs
> its the only real I/O on a PC.
> Now with raspi we have GPIO, a BIG win!!!!
>
> Apple is overpriced crap.

I agree, and, more to the point of an educated astute observation...

The commonality of the raspi with almost _all_ other common consumer
electronics is that every year the raspi (and most consumer electronics)
gets (a) better, (b) faster, and (c) cheaper over time.

It's only the immensely hugely marketed electronic items which don't get
(a) better, (b) faster, and (c) cheaper over time.

HINT #1: Apple spends the lowest of all of high tech in R&D, yet Apple's
marketing budget is likely the largest of all high tech (bar none).

HINT #2: Guess why Apple products (which every year lose more and more
functionality) get (a) worse, (b) faster, and (c) more expensive over time?
--
You can't make those ungodly profit margins off an intelligent customer.

[meff]

On 2022-04-16, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have a PCI par port card in one of my PCs
> its the only real I/O on a PC.
> Now with raspi we have GPIO, a BIG win!!!!
>
> Apple is overpriced crap.

Nobody said anything about Apple being priced well :) I'm just here to
say the 3.5mm TRS jack is good to be dead. It was a bad connector and
it's well and good to be gone. I really don't care about Apple either
way. I'm an Android user myself and I'm _glad_ I don't have to bother
with 3.5mm jacks anymore.

[Andy Burnelli]

meff wrote:

> Nobody said anything about Apple being priced well :) I'm just here to
> say the 3.5mm TRS jack is good to be dead. It was a bad connector and
> it's well and good to be gone. I really don't care about Apple either
> way. I'm an Android user myself and I'm _glad_ I don't have to bother
> with 3.5mm jacks anymore.

If I assume you're a well educated person with at least an average IQ, I
will also have to assume that your thinking is based on a modicum of logic.

With that assumption in mind, I must ask how is a phone any less functional
if it happens to be most phones which have the industry standard 3.5mm jack?

The Apple iKooks seem to claim any phone with the industry standard 3.5 mm
jack is (somehow) less functional than a phone that doesn't have that jack.

How is that a logical sensible assessment in your well-informed opinion?

[alister]

the reason is actually quite simple Apple are NOT primarily a technology
company, they are a fashion house. change for the sake of change every 6
months & your customer base will buy everything again because they simply
must have the latest model or die of embarrassment




--
Hindsight is always 20:20.
-- Billy Wilder

[alister]

On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 17:55:05 -0400, nospam wrote:

> In article <t3cjcj$1s9$2...@gioia.aioe.org>, alister
> <aliste...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>> > Apple replaced one method of connecting headphones/earbuds with
>> > another.
>>
>> replaces a universal interface with a proprietary one that can only be
>> sourced from Apple of an Apple licensed supplier.
>
> usb-c is also licensed, for the many android devices that do not have an
> analog headphone jack anymore.

Yep it is not just apple, others have seen that it can generate an
additional revenue stream & have adopted the same strategy




--
Don't put too fine a point to your wit for fear it should get blunted.
-- Miguel de Cervantes

[meff]

On 2022-04-16, Andy Burnelli <sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

I for one prefer not having a 3.5mm jack on my phone (and I don't on
my Android). I already talked about my problems with the connector in
another post. Practically speaking, they add another failure mode to
the phone and increase its bulk. I've had my 3.5mm connectors die on
me often and frequently, everything from one channel going dead to
gunk buildup causing attenuated audio. I'm a pretty outdoorsy person
so that doesn't help. The single connector design of phones without
the 3.5mm sockets make them easy to clean and maintain.

[alister]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 10:39:45 -0700, sms wrote:

> On 4/14/2022 8:45 AM, sms wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I have a mouse that is switchable between 2.4 GHz and Bluetooth, and it
>> comes with a 2.4 GHz receiver. But the mini-keyboards I've seen are all
>> one or the other, and not switchable.
>
> Actually there is a switchable Bluetooth/2.4 GHz model, see
> <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TS7TQ8J/>.

Rii have a few different models like this - they are generally quite good



--
"Nature is very un-American. Nature never hurries."
-- William George Jordan

[Andy Burnelli]

alister wrote:

> the reason is actually quite simple Apple are NOT primarily a technology
> company, they are a fashion house. change for the sake of change every 6
> months & your customer base will buy everything again because they simply
> must have the latest model or die of embarrassment

Yup.

You understand the market dynamics well.

Marketing is why Apple products get worse, faster & more expensive over
time, while other electronics (like the raspi) get better, faster & cheaper.

Apple removes functionality, and then tells them it's "courageous" to do so.
*And they believe it!*

Apple secretly throttles CPUs and then says they have a special battery
chemistry that only Apple uses and it's only used in certain iPhones.
*And they believe it!*

Apple has never shipped the correct 20W charger in any iPhone box when Apple
tells its customers that they have too many (old decrepit) chargers already.
*And they believe it!*

You can't make those ungodly profits off of an intelligent customer base.
*You just can't*

[Andy Burnelli]

meff wrote:

>> How is that a logical sensible assessment in your well-informed opinion?
>
> I for one prefer not having a 3.5mm jack on my phone (and I don't on
> my Android).

Thank you for approaching the answer in the manner in which it was posed, as
the iKooks are saying that somehow the phone is damaged by the mere presence
of that industry standard 3.5mm jack on the side.

> I already talked about my problems with the connector in
> another post.

I don't doubt that _every_ standard has its pros and cons.

> Practically speaking, they add another failure mode to
> the phone and increase its bulk.

Do they?

A lot of people believe in their own intuition more than they believe in
facts, where that's how marketing works (it preys on your intuition
believing something that wasn't actually ever said - but it was implied).

Is there _any_ evidence that the vast majority of phones with the standard
3.5mm jack are more prone to failures not associated directly with the jack?

And, given most Android phones nowadays are coming with huge batteries
(greater than about 4.5 Amp hour capacities), is the "bulk" of the industry
standard 3.5mm jack on that rather thick side really a design impediment?

> I've had my 3.5mm connectors die on
> me often and frequently, everything from one channel going dead to
> gunk buildup causing attenuated audio.

With all due respect, that's not what I'm asking as any 3.5mm jack that
works for a time and then fails thereafter was still useful for that time.

Not having that jack made it *NOT* useful for the _entire_ time.

> I'm a pretty outdoorsy person
> so that doesn't help.

You don't know me, but my last phone got crushed while I was rappelling.

> The single connector design of phones without
> the 3.5mm sockets make them easy to clean and maintain.

Again, I get it that you're basing that on pure intuition, but bear in mind
that I know quite a lot about engineering where intuition is often wrong.

Take the "intuition" that people have with high-test gasoline being used for
racing engines, so they think it gives their Honda Civic more power somehow.

Hell, they even think "high octane jet fuel" will be even better, right?
And yet it's not.

Intuition is almost always wrong because even the smartest of us owns the
intuition that nature gives the monkeys who descended from the trees onto
the savanna. (I know a bit about quantum mechanics, for example, where
_nothing_ is intuitive, and if you think it is, you don't understand it...
to paraphrase Richard Feynman.)

I completely understood what you are claiming, but I question these intuits:
1. Something to fail
2. Increase in bulk
3. Easy to maintain

Personally, I don't find any of those intuitive thoughts persuasive in light
of the _functionality_ of a phone with and without the standard 3.5mm jack.

However let's see if anyone else has an ideas why the iKooks seem to claim
that a phone with the functionality is somehow _less_ functional than one
that doesn't have it at all.
--
Reminds me of the WWII joke told in Germany of "If you see green wings, it's
British, and if you see silver wings, it's American, but if you can't see it
at all, it's German).

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 16 Apr 2022 07:36:23 GMT) it happened meff
<em...@example.com> wrote in <Xlu6K.430643$t2Bb....@fx98.iad>:

We live in a world where making things redundant by introducing new standards
to seLL new stuf seems to be the normal
I have many 3.5 mm earbuds and expensive Sennheiser headphone with 3.5 mm jacks
If Apple or anybody wants to exclude me from using it then they have already lost me as a buyer
(not that I would even consider Apple).
I have a Xiaomi Android phone for what was it? 140 Euro or so and it has a 3.5 mm head phone connector
plenty of apps available for it.

All my rapis have 3.5 mm jacks up to and including the Pi4 8 GB.
I have USB audio sticks for mike in and audio out for it too with 3.5 mm Jack
That brings me to all those mikes...

[A. Dumas]

alister <aliste...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> the reason is actually quite simple Apple are NOT primarily a technology
> company, they are a fashion house. change for the sake of change every 6
> months & your customer base will buy everything again because they simply
> must have the latest model or die of embarrassment

This is a gross generalisation which might be true for a lot of people and
works well for Apple but a generalisation nonetheless. I am an old
unix/linux user who switched from Windows to Apple around 2008 because as a
developer (formerly web now mostly C) it "just" works. I don't need gamer
graphics but I do appreciate not running system updates for a whole day
after a week of not using a computer. And yes, I like the aesthetics of
both the hardware and (mostly) the software. Linux doesn't work for me as a
day to day desktop. I like tinkering as a hobby but I don't want to be a
busy system administrator for my own system.

I only recently switched from Android to iPhone and yes I miss the
headphone jack but I got a €5 adapter. It kinda sucks but modern (high end)
Android phones also often don't have it anymore.

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Sat, 16 Apr 2022 08:50:58 -0000 (UTC)) it happened A. Dumas
<alex...@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote in <t3e01i$mp5$1...@dont-email.me>:

>alister <aliste...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> the reason is actually quite simple Apple are NOT primarily a technology
>> company, they are a fashion house. change for the sake of change every 6
>> months & your customer base will buy everything again because they simply
>> must have the latest model or die of embarrassment
>
>This is a gross generalisation which might be true for a lot of people and
>works well for Apple but a generalisation nonetheless. I am an old
>unix/linux user who switched from Windows to Apple around 2008 because as a
>developer (formerly web now mostly C) it "just" works.

I have been running Linux only since 1998 when I found SLS Linux on a CD that came with some magazine.
Before that I was a developer for IBM software in x86 asm and C, an also various micro computers.
But I am also an electronics hardware designer and a hacker of course ;-)

>I don't need gamer
>graphics but I do appreciate not running system updates for a whole day
>after a week of not using a computer. And yes, I like the aesthetics of
>both the hardware and (mostly) the software. Linux doesn't work for me as a
>day to day desktop.

That makes no sense whatsoever

I type this on my good old Samsung laptop that runs Slackware
~ # uname -a
Linux panteltje20 2.6.37.6 #3 SMP Sat Apr 9 22:49:32 CDT 2011 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2430M CPU @ 2.40GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux
so 11 years old distro, in the newsreader I wrote myself back in those days:
http://panteltje.com/panteltje/newsflex/index.html
because there was no FreeAgent for Linux.

There is a modern version of Debian in an other partition, can boot in it but never use it though.

I can also run Chromium on my laptop via ssh from the Pi4 4GBB
~# cat /usr/local/sbin/chromium

#!/usr/bin/expect
spawn ssh -Y fl...@192.168.178.95 /usr/bin/chromium-browser --window-size=1568,872 1>/dev/zero 2>/dev/zero
expect "password"
send "Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious\r"
expect "192.168.178.123"
interact

No problem exposing my password here as they they cannot spell it anyways.

>I like tinkering as a hobby but I don't want to be a
>busy system administrator for my own system.

Well, silly updates that suck bandwidth seems to be the normal.
I use iptables as firewall here,.
Sure some silly website can steal your passwords, same for Apple and Microsoft.

I run Chromium browser on a Pi4 4 GB (so Linux) to access modern websites,
In all these years since 1998 I have never been hacked,
My website is hosted by godaddy and that is worth the money as I do not have to
check logfiles all day to check for hacking attempts..

I tried to write an android app one day but really disliked the system and doubt the security...
programming for dummies sort of thing.
I write asm for micros and it is fun, plenty of code on my site.
Using C for Linux stuff, makes it portable to raspis etc.

>I only recently switched from Android to iPhone and yes I miss the

>headphone jack but I got a â ¬5 adapter. It kinda sucks but modern (high end)

>Android phones also often don't have it anymore.

Later

[alister]

This much is true, unlike most Fashion houses Apple do make high Quality
products that work well, its not the product I dislike it is the Corporate
mentality & ethos of the company.


--
Mum's the word.
-- Miguel de Cervantes

[nospam]

In article <eli$22041...@qaz.wtf>, Eli the Bearded

<*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

> > The upside of a Bluetooth keyboard and/or mouse is that there's no need
> > for a USB receiver module.
>
> And the downside of any thing not wired is batteries and moving it
> between devices. Repairing for BT or moving dongles for this 2.4 GHz
> thing.

bluetooth keyboard batteries last as much as two years on a single
charge. it's *not* an issue. moving it between devices is also easier
since there aren't any wires to plug/unplug. some bluetooth keyboards
support multiple pairings, and in many cases switch automatically among
hosts.

[nospam]

In article <t3ds8l$1bvi$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, alister

<aliste...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>
> the reason is actually quite simple Apple are NOT primarily a technology
> company, they are a fashion house. change for the sake of change every 6
> months & your customer base will buy everything again because they simply
> must have the latest model or die of embarrassment

that's nothing more than the usual bashing, and is demonstrably false.

[nospam]

In article <t3dsgh$1bvi$2...@gioia.aioe.org>, alister

<aliste...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> >> > Apple replaced one method of connecting headphones/earbuds with
> >> > another.
> >>
> >> replaces a universal interface with a proprietary one that can only be
> >> sourced from Apple of an Apple licensed supplier.
> >
> > usb-c is also licensed, for the many android devices that do not have an
> > analog headphone jack anymore.
>
> Yep it is not just apple, others have seen that it can generate an
> additional revenue stream & have adopted the same strategy

that is false. the reason it's licensed is to guarantee compatibility
and prevent damaging devices, including for products not yet released.
the revenue is negligible and covers the testing that's done.

for those who want to cheap out, there are knock-off versions.
sometimes they work. sometimes they don't.

[nospam]

In article <t3dc3r$qan$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Burnelli

<sp...@nospam.com> wrote:

> The loss of functionality you advocate for is like Apple removing the
> industry standard USB-A ports on Apple computers which negates the use of a
> simple USB thumb drive.

the industry is moving to usb-c, which is a more capable port as well
as being reversible, making it more convenient too.

google was first to switch to it on their chromebooks. the hp spectre
is entirely usb-c. apple's ports are both usb-c/thunderbolt, as are
some other makers (not all support both, however).

there are usb-c thumb drives as well as ones with both usb-c and usb-a
ports for backwards compatibility.

it's a non-issue, born out of ignorance.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Its demonstrably true.

As it is of all consumer product companies. Sales are everything, no
matter what the reason for them, and consumers are by their very nature
less sophisticated buyers, for whom brand image is usually far more
relevant than performance or total lifetime cost.



--
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

– Ludwig von Mises

[Ahem A Rivet's Shot]

On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 06:19:28 GMT
meff <em...@example.com> wrote:

> Oof I'm sorry you lost your parallel port. It must have stung when
> they took those industry-standard connectors out of computers for
> USB.

Parallel ports are still used as control interfaces to small CNC
machines in preference to USB because they provide better real time
control. Old computers with parallel ports command a surprising premium
because of this.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

[A. Dumas]

The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 16/04/2022 11:41, nospam wrote:
>> that's nothing more than the usual bashing, and is demonstrably false.
>
> Its demonstrably true.

As always, both are true. Some value one thing more, others the other, and
some people hate everything ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[nospam]

In article <t3e7am$7hi$1...@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher

<t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> >> the reason is actually quite simple Apple are NOT primarily a technology
> >> company, they are a fashion house. change for the sake of change every 6
> >> months & your customer base will buy everything again because they simply
> >> must have the latest model or die of embarrassment
> >
> > that's nothing more than the usual bashing, and is demonstrably false.
>
> Its demonstrably true.

it is not.

> As it is of all consumer product companies. Sales are everything, no
> matter what the reason for them, and consumers are by their very nature
> less sophisticated buyers, for whom brand image is usually far more
> relevant than performance or total lifetime cost.

except that people buy apple products because they do what people want
them to do, not because of any mythical brand image.

performance is as good or better than the competition and total
lifetime cost is less, often by quite a bit.

<https://bgr.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/galaxy-s21-ultra-vs-iphone-1
3-pro-geekench-5-benchmark.jpg>
<https://bgr.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/pixel-5-vs-iphone-13-pro-gee
kench-5-benchmark.jpg>

<https://www.computerworld.com/article/3131906/ibm-says-macs-are-even-ch
eaper-to-run-than-it-thought.html>
IBM today told the record-setting seventh Jamf Nation User Conference
that it is saving even more money by deploying Macs across the
company than it thought: each Mac deployment saves the company up
to $535 over four years, in contrast to the $270 per Mac it claimed
last year.
...
This is fully in line with experiences shared in 2015, when Previn
said just 5 percent of IBM零 Mac users needed to call the help desk;
In contrast, an astonishing 40 percent of PC staff request tech
support help. At IBM last year just 25 staff supported 30,000 Macs.

[nospam]

In article <t3ech5$d93$1...@dont-email.me>, A. Dumas

<alex...@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:

> >> that's nothing more than the usual bashing, and is demonstrably false.
> >
> > Its demonstrably true.
>
> As always, both are true.

you snipped the context.

> Some value one thing more, others the other, and

> some people hate everything Ż\_(?)_/Ż

that is true.

however, the claim that apple is a fashion brand is flat out false.

[sms]

On 4/15/2022 9:10 PM, Eli the Bearded wrote:
> In comp.sys.raspberry-pi, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> On 4/14/2022 4:24 AM, Patrick wrote:
>>> On 14/04/2022 00:11, Eli the Bearded wrote:
>>>> I've seen bluetooth keyboards about the size of a small TV remote:
>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Miritz-Wireless-Keyboard-Touchpad-Control/dp/B01LZIIH24/
>>>> That size is perfect, but I'd really prefer USB not bluetooth.
>>> I have two of these, I can use them on anything with a USB socket.
>
> Use them "wired" to a USB socket?
>
>> Except that he explicitly stated that he wanted a _wired_ keyboard.
>
> Yes.
>
>> Part of the confusion is that what he really appears to not want is a
>> Bluetooth keyboard.
>
> I didn't know about the 2.4 GHz connection. Maybe that's more reliable
> than bluetooth, maybe not. I'd still rather the wire. (Which probably
> puts me in an extreme minority.)

It has three advantages over Bluetooth. First, it uses less power so you
won't be recharging the keyboard very often. Second, there is no pairing
necessary, it's all automatic. Third, it works with just about any
device with a USB port, including Android phones. Fourth, the connection
doesn't ever drop. The disadvantage of 2.4GHz is that it requires a
separate receiver, though sometimes, depending on the device, so does
Bluetooth. For example, I use a 2.4GHz wireless keyboard with my smart
TV which is a lot easier than trying to enter credentials or search
criteria with the TV remote. The TV has no Bluetooth but it doe shave a
USB port.

But yes, there is the hassle of charging the batteries on wireless
devices. Fortunately, a keyboard is not like a Bluetooth speaker or
Bluetooth headphones, it uses very little power so recharging it isn't
required very often. Also, you could just leave in plugged into the USB
port all the time, constantly charging, so you're no worse off than with
a wired keyboard.

[sms]

On 4/15/2022 11:19 PM, meff wrote:

> On 2022-04-16, Andy Burnelli <sp...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> The loss of functionality you advocate for is like Apple removing the
>> industry standard USB-A ports on Apple computers which negates the use of a
>> simple USB thumb drive.
>

> Oof I'm sorry you lost your parallel port. It must have stung when
> they took those industry-standard connectors out of computers for
> USB.

In 2016, Tim Cook did display a prototype of an iPhone that was much
more fully featured in terms of interfaces, but alas, no parallel port.
See
<https://www.concept-phones.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/iphone-7-ideal-tim-cook-joy-of-tech-parody-490x743.jpg>.

In any case, Apple brought back the USB-A ports on the new Macbooks.
They also brought back the SD card reader and the HDMI port, and it
still has a 3.5mm headphone jack. See
<https://www.extremetech.com/computing/328357-apples-new-14-inch-macbook-pro-brings-back-the-ports-youve-missed>.
Enough grumbling by Mac users about dongle hell, plus the departure of
Jony Ive probably is what led to this decision.

[nospam]

In article <t3eim3$pnh$1...@dont-email.me>, sms

<scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> > I didn't know about the 2.4 GHz connection. Maybe that's more reliable
> > than bluetooth, maybe not. I'd still rather the wire. (Which probably
> > puts me in an extreme minority.)
>
> It has three advantages over Bluetooth. First, it uses less power so you
> won't be recharging the keyboard very often.

that is false. bluetooth uses *less* power, with some bluetooth
keyboards and mice having as much as two years on a single charge.

> Second, there is no pairing
> necessary, it's all automatic.

modern bluetooth peripherals do not need pairing, and for those that
do, it's a trivial one-time step. hardly an advantage.

> Third, it works with just about any
> device with a USB port, including Android phones.

that may be true, but just about everything has bluetooth so that's not
an advantage either.

> Fourth,

you said three advantages (not that any of what you listed is an
advantage).

> the connection
> doesn't ever drop.

nor does bluetooth.

although, if you move far enough away, any connection will drop.

> The disadvantage of 2.4GHz is that it requires a
> separate receiver, though sometimes, depending on the device, so does
> Bluetooth.

that is a significant disadvantage, especially for a mobile device such
as a phone or tablet.

a dongle also uses up a usb port, eliminating the advantage of going
wireless.

another disadvantage is only one dongle can be used, thereby limiting
it to only one device. a second dongle will cause all sorts of
problems.

some bluetooth keyboards support multiple pairings and can work with
multiple devices, often automatically switching between them, which is
another *huge* advantage of bluetooth.

[sms]

On 4/15/2022 11:47 PM, Jan Panteltje wrote:

<snip>

> I have a PCI par port card in one of my PCs
> its the only real I/O on a PC.
> Now with raspi we have GPIO, a BIG win!!!!

The parallel port is also super easy to use. Even in the early days you
could use the four control lines as inputs so it was bi-directional, 4
bits at a time, but as it evolved it became fully bi-directional with a
direction control bit (which caused problems for some users who would
inadvertently set the bit to input).

[nospam]

In article <t3ejj2$i5$1...@dont-email.me>, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

> In any case, Apple brought back the USB-A ports on the new Macbooks.

no they didn't.

the new macbooks have usb-c/thunderbolt ports. there are no usb-a ports:

<https://www.apple.com/v/macbook-pro-14-and-16/b/images/specs/ports_14_i
nch__r5y6iul60wa6_large.jpg>

> They also brought back the SD card reader and the HDMI port, and it
> still has a 3.5mm headphone jack.

that's because macbooks are nowhere near as space-constrained as a
phone as well as used in very different ways, with very different
needs.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 16.04.22 um 16:27 schrieb nospam:

> In article <t3eim3$pnh$1...@dont-email.me>, sms
> <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I didn't know about the 2.4 GHz connection. Maybe that's more reliable
>>> than bluetooth, maybe not. I'd still rather the wire. (Which probably
>>> puts me in an extreme minority.)
>>
>> It has three advantages over Bluetooth. First, it uses less power so you
>> won't be recharging the keyboard very often.
>
> that is false. bluetooth uses *less* power, with some bluetooth
> keyboards and mice having as much as two years on a single charge.

That is an urban legend. That is not possible.
Even if not used these devices have perhaps only a minimal residual energy.

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

[nospam]

In article <t3ep8e$bna$1...@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>

wrote:

> >>> I didn't know about the 2.4 GHz connection. Maybe that's more reliable
> >>> than bluetooth, maybe not. I'd still rather the wire. (Which probably
> >>> puts me in an extreme minority.)
> >>
> >> It has three advantages over Bluetooth. First, it uses less power so you
> >> won't be recharging the keyboard very often.
> >
> > that is false. bluetooth uses *less* power, with some bluetooth
> > keyboards and mice having as much as two years on a single charge.
>
> That is an urban legend. That is not possible.

it's reality.

here are two:

<https://www.microsoft.com/en-ww/accessories/products/keyboards/microsof
t-bluetooth-keyboard>
Microsoft Bluetooth® Keyboard pairs seamlessly with your laptop via
Bluetooth® and delivers long battery life up to 2 years.

<https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/k380-multi-device.htm
l>
Battery: 2 x AAA
Battery: 24 months

there are also bluetooth devices that use coin batteries which last for
a year or more.

> Even if not used these devices have perhaps only a minimal residual energy.

if it's not used, it will last even longer.

lithium aa/aaa batteries have a ~10 year shelf life.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 16.04.22 um 18:14 schrieb nospam:

> life up to 2 years.

No.

And we discuss accumulators not ordinary one-way batteries which are
environmental killing waste from day one and not acceptable anymore.

But even these batteries are considerably drained after a year.

In addition: These performance claims by the manufacturers are never
cross checked by anybody and are *always* unrealistic.

My rechargeable Apple-mouse was said to last 3 month with a full charge.
No way! With my usage profile I can be happy if it lasts 3 weeks.
The completely unacceptable environmental profile of the battery driven
mouse was the reason why I exchanged it for one with an accumulator. 3
weeks max.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 16/04/2022 15:02, nospam wrote:
> In article <t3e7am$7hi$1...@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
> <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>> the reason is actually quite simple Apple are NOT primarily a technology
>>>> company, they are a fashion house. change for the sake of change every 6
>>>> months & your customer base will buy everything again because they simply
>>>> must have the latest model or die of embarrassment
>>>
>>> that's nothing more than the usual bashing, and is demonstrably false.
>>
>> Its demonstrably true.
>
> it is not.
>
>> As it is of all consumer product companies. Sales are everything, no
>> matter what the reason for them, and consumers are by their very nature
>> less sophisticated buyers, for whom brand image is usually far more
>> relevant than performance or total lifetime cost.
>
> except that people buy apple products because they do what people want
> them to do, not because of any mythical brand image.
>

No, they buy them because they feel safe with them and convince
themselves that what they do is what they really wanted to do

> performance is as good or better than the competition and total
> lifetime cost is less, often by quite a bit.
>
> <https://bgr.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/galaxy-s21-ultra-vs-iphone-1
> 3-pro-geekench-5-benchmark.jpg>
> <https://bgr.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/pixel-5-vs-iphone-13-pro-gee
> kench-5-benchmark.jpg>
>
> <https://www.computerworld.com/article/3131906/ibm-says-macs-are-even-ch
> eaper-to-run-than-it-thought.html>
> IBM today told the record-setting seventh Jamf Nation User Conference
> that it is saving even more money by deploying Macs across the
> company than it thought: each Mac deployment saves the company up
> to $535 over four years, in contrast to the $270 per Mac it claimed
> last year.
> ...
> This is fully in line with experiences shared in 2015, when Previn

> said just 5 percent of IBM¹s Mac users needed to call the help desk;

> In contrast, an astonishing 40 percent of PC staff request tech
> support help. At IBM last year just 25 staff supported 30,000 Macs.

I have never called the help line for a knife and fork

--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

[nospam]

In article <t3erhr$uoi$1...@dont-email.me>, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
wrote:

> > life up to 2 years.
>
> No.

yes.

there are several such models. i linked two. there are others.

> And we discuss accumulators not ordinary one-way batteries which are
> environmental killing waste from day one and not acceptable anymore.

it doesn't matter what type of battery it uses.

> But even these batteries are considerably drained after a year.

not always. it depends on the battery and usage.

> In addition: These performance claims by the manufacturers are never
> cross checked by anybody and are *always* unrealistic.

actually, they're reasonably accurate.

but if it turns out to be 1.5 years instead of 2 years, very few will
complain.

the fact is that battery life for modern bluetooth devices is not an
issue whatsoever.

[sms]

On 4/16/2022 3:49 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 06:19:28 GMT
> meff <em...@example.com> wrote:
>
>> Oof I'm sorry you lost your parallel port. It must have stung when
>> they took those industry-standard connectors out of computers for
>> USB.
>
> Parallel ports are still used as control interfaces to small CNC
> machines in preference to USB because they provide better real time
> control. Old computers with parallel ports command a surprising premium
> because of this.

You can still buy a PCI card with a parallel port. Old laptops are a
different story. Some had a parallel port, others had a CardBus or
ExpressCard slot and could use a parallel port card. USB parallel port
card adapters are not going to be useful for real-time control.

[Alan]

On 2022-04-16 9:43 a.m., The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 16/04/2022 15:02, nospam wrote:
>> In article <t3e7am$7hi$1...@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
>> <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>>> the reason is actually quite simple Apple are NOT primarily a
>>>>> technology
>>>>> company, they are a fashion house. change for the sake of change
>>>>> every 6
>>>>> months & your customer base will buy everything again because they
>>>>> simply
>>>>> must have the latest model or die of embarrassment
>>>>
>>>> that's nothing more than the usual bashing, and is demonstrably false.
>>>
>>> Its demonstrably true.
>>
>> it is not.
>>
>>> As it is of all consumer product companies. Sales are everything, no
>>> matter what the reason for them, and consumers are by their very nature
>>> less sophisticated buyers, for whom brand image is usually far more
>>> relevant than performance or total lifetime cost.
>>
>> except that people buy apple products because they do what people want
>> them to do, not because of any mythical brand image.
>>
> No, they buy them because they feel safe with them and convince
> themselves that what they do is what they really wanted to do

Riiiiiiiiight.

Everyone in the world who disagrees with you is an easily swayed sheep!

Apple's products have exceptional loyalty. People buy them, and then buy
another and another.

The reasonable conclusion is that they do so because they are satisfied
with them; even happy with them.

>
>
>> performance is as good or better than the competition and total
>> lifetime cost is less, often by quite a bit.
>>
>> <https://bgr.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/galaxy-s21-ultra-vs-iphone-1
>> 3-pro-geekench-5-benchmark.jpg>
>> <https://bgr.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/pixel-5-vs-iphone-13-pro-gee
>> kench-5-benchmark.jpg>
>>
>> <https://www.computerworld.com/article/3131906/ibm-says-macs-are-even-ch
>> eaper-to-run-than-it-thought.html>
>>    IBM today told the record-setting seventh Jamf Nation User Conference
>>    that it is saving even more money by deploying Macs across the
>>    company than it thought: each Mac deployment saves the company up
>>    to $535 over four years, in contrast to the $270 per Mac it claimed
>>    last year.
>> ...
>>    This is fully in line with experiences shared in 2015, when Previn
>>    said just 5 percent of IBM¹s Mac users needed to call the help desk;
>>    In contrast, an astonishing 40 percent of PC staff request tech
>>    support help. At IBM last year just 25 staff supported 30,000 Macs.
>
> I have never called the help line for a knife and fork

Which is relevant...

...how, exactly?

[Alan]

On 2022-04-16 3:55 a.m., The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 16/04/2022 11:41, nospam wrote:
>> In article <t3ds8l$1bvi$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, alister
>> <aliste...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> the reason is actually quite simple Apple are NOT primarily a technology
>>> company, they are a fashion house. change for the sake of change every 6
>>> months & your customer base will buy everything again because they
>>> simply
>>> must have the latest model or die of embarrassment
>>
>> that's nothing more than the usual bashing, and is demonstrably false.
>
> Its demonstrably true.
>
> As it is of all consumer product companies. Sales are everything, no
> matter what the reason for them, and consumers are by their very nature
> less sophisticated buyers, for whom brand image is usually far more
> relevant than performance or total lifetime cost.

Is that all consumers...

...except you?

You're clever enough to see through it, right?

:-)

[Alan]

On 2022-04-16 1:43 a.m., Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Sat, 16 Apr 2022 07:36:23 GMT) it happened meff
> <em...@example.com> wrote in <Xlu6K.430643$t2Bb....@fx98.iad>:

>
>> On 2022-04-16, Jan Panteltje <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> I have a PCI par port card in one of my PCs
>>> its the only real I/O on a PC.
>>> Now with raspi we have GPIO, a BIG win!!!!
>>>

>>> Apple is overpriced crap.
>>
>> Nobody said anything about Apple being priced well :) I'm just here to
>> say the 3.5mm TRS jack is good to be dead. It was a bad connector and
>> it's well and good to be gone. I really don't care about Apple either
>> way. I'm an Android user myself and I'm _glad_ I don't have to bother
>> with 3.5mm jacks anymore.
>
> We live in a world where making things redundant by introducing new standards
> to seLL new stuf seems to be the normal

Apple didn't delete the 3.5mm (1/8") stereo headphone jack to sell knew
stuff.

They did it because a deep jack like that makes for a mechanism for
damaging the phone if it gets levered.

It's also more difficult to achieve acceptable levels of water
resistance with more openings in the phone; particularly an older port
design never designed with water resistance in mind.

The Lightning port was designed for water resistance.

> I have many 3.5 mm earbuds and expensive Sennheiser headphone with 3.5 mm jacks

<https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MMX62AM/A/lightning-to-35-mm-headphone-jack-adapter>

Solved for $9.

> If Apple or anybody wants to exclude me from using it then they have already lost me as a buyer
> (not that I would even consider Apple).

Showing your open-minded nature!

> I have a Xiaomi Android phone for what was it? 140 Euro or so and it has a 3.5 mm head phone connector
> plenty of apps available for it.
>
> All my rapis have 3.5 mm jacks up to and including the Pi4 8 GB.

What is a "rapi"

> I have USB audio sticks for mike in and audio out for it too with 3.5 mm Jack
> That brings me to all those mikes...

Which can be connected with the same adapter...

[nospam]

In article <t3f0i6$4jt$1...@dont-email.me>, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

> > All my rapis have 3.5 mm jacks up to and including the Pi4 8 GB.
>
> What is a "rapi"

raspberry pi, one of the two groups to which this is cross-posted, for
reasons known only to 'arlen'.

note that the raspberry pi zero (all varieties) does *not* have a 3,5mm
jack.

[Axel Berger]

Alan wrote:
> They did it because a deep jack like that makes for a mechanism for
> damaging the phone if it gets levered.

No quite the oppsite. Given a certain torque (determined by the
outside), the forces damaging stuff inside are smaller the longer the
lever is and vice versa.


--
/¯\ No | Dipl.-Ing. F. Axel Berger Tel: +49/ 221/ 7771 8067
\ / HTML | Roald-Amundsen-Straße 2a Fax: +49/ 221/ 7771 8069
 X in | D-50829 Köln-Ossendorf http://berger-odenthal.de
/ \ Mail | -- No unannounced, large, binary attachments, please! --

[Alan]

On 2022-04-16 2:31 a.m., alister wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 08:50:58 -0000 (UTC), A. Dumas wrote:
>
>> alister <aliste...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>> the reason is actually quite simple Apple are NOT primarily a
>>> technology company, they are a fashion house. change for the sake of
>>> change every 6 months & your customer base will buy everything again
>>> because they simply must have the latest model or die of embarrassment
>>

>> This is a gross generalisation which might be true for a lot of people
>> and works well for Apple but a generalisation nonetheless. I am an old
>> unix/linux user who switched from Windows to Apple around 2008 because
>> as a developer (formerly web now mostly C) it "just" works. I don't need
>> gamer graphics but I do appreciate not running system updates for a
>> whole day after a week of not using a computer. And yes, I like the
>> aesthetics of both the hardware and (mostly) the software. Linux doesn't
>> work for me as a day to day desktop. I like tinkering as a hobby but I
>> don't want to be a busy system administrator for my own system.
>>
>> I only recently switched from Android to iPhone and yes I miss the
>> headphone jack but I got a €5 adapter. It kinda sucks but modern (high
>> end)
>> Android phones also often don't have it anymore.
>
>
>
> This much is true, unlike most Fashion houses Apple do make high Quality
> products that work well, its not the product I dislike it is the Corporate
> mentality & ethos of the company.
>
>

What specific parts of the "mentality & ethos" do you find objectionable?

[nospam]

In article <625B0804...@Berger-Odenthal.De>, Axel Berger

<Sp...@Berger-Odenthal.De> wrote:

> Alan wrote:
> > They did it because a deep jack like that makes for a mechanism for
> > damaging the phone if it gets levered.
>
> No quite the oppsite. Given a certain torque (determined by the
> outside), the forces damaging stuff inside are smaller the longer the
> lever is and vice versa.

he's correct. torquing it *will* damage the phone, usually with part of
the plug stuck inside, requiring service to remove the plug and repair
any additional damage.