Android filedate nastiness

The Real Bev

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Nov 15, 2017, 1:25:24 PM11/15/17

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I just found out that Android -- no matter which file manager you use --
is incapable of maintaining the last-changed date for a file. Bug
reports since 2011 (when was Android born?) up to a few days ago. What
a STUPID and offensive thing.

The Total Commander writer wrote back to me. Good guy. I wish I wanted
to use that file manager, but the one by Flashlight+Clock is simpler. I
like simple.

Google does something nice and then cripples it. Somewhere in their
corporate structure is a real bastard with a lot of authority.

I'm going to try taking the sdcard out and copying my photo files back
to the card with the computer rather than letting the phone handle part
of the process as I did before.

--
Cheers, Bev
"I believe that forgiving [terrorists] is God's function.
Our job is to arrange the meeting."
- Norman Schwartzkopf

VanguardLH

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Nov 15, 2017, 1:45:07 PM11/15/17

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The Real Bev wrote:

> I just found out that Android -- no matter which file manager you use --
> is incapable of maintaining the last-changed date for a file.

What does "maintain" mean to you, er, should mean to us?

- After creation, has the file you looked at ever been modified?
- Is it the same as the creation date?
- Does last-modified attribute zero out?
- If different (after modification), does it revert to the creation
date?
- Does it change to the date and time of when you peek at the file?
- Does it change when you only read the file (and with a tool that can
ONLY read, NOT write)?
- To verify, does "last-changed" mean "last modified" (from the
file.lastModified() attribute of a file)?
- Is this only for files on the SD card or also for files in
main/primary storage?
- Are you looking at the timestamps of the files when they are on your
main/primary or secondary/SD storage, or after you imported them
or copied them elsewhere?
- After using Total Commander to change the last modified timestamp of a
file in main or secondary storage, how long afterward does that
timestamp "not get maintained" (whatever that means)? Does it only
change after a restart of the phone?

> Bug reports since 2011 (when was Android born?) up to a few days ago

Where are those? Under https://source.android.com/setup/report-bugs?
Got some examples?

The Real Bev

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Nov 15, 2017, 2:38:55 PM11/15/17

to

On 11/15/2017 10:45 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
> The Real Bev wrote:
>
>> I just found out that Android -- no matter which file manager you use --
>> is incapable of maintaining the last-changed date for a file.
>
> What does "maintain" mean to you, er, should mean to us?

I want it to mean "the date I last altered/changed/edited/whatever the
file should stay forever no matter where I copy the file".

> - After creation, has the file you looked at ever been modified?
> - Is it the same as the creation date?
> - Does last-modified attribute zero out?

No idea, I don't know how to look for that.

> - If different (after modification), does it revert to the creation
> date?
> - Does it change to the date and time of when you peek at the file?

That's a different thing, about which I'm unconcerned. When I use cp,
it's automatically aliased to cp -ai. That's what I want to happen.

> - Does it change when you only read the file (and with a tool that can
> ONLY read, NOT write)?

No. I don't care about that, although a lot of people would.

> - To verify, does "last-changed" mean "last modified" (from the
> file.lastModified() attribute of a file)?

Sounds reasonable.

> - Is this only for files on the SD card or also for files in
> main/primary storage?

All files on any device I EVER use.

> - Are you looking at the timestamps of the files when they are on your
> main/primary or secondary/SD storage, or after you imported them
> or copied them elsewhere?

I copied photo files (dates were the dates I took the photos) from my
old phone to my computer to my new phone using ES File explorer for all
copies. The dates changed to the copy date. Is it possible to mount
the phone card without removing it from the phone? fdisk -l doesn't see it.

> - After using Total Commander to change the last modified timestamp of a
> file in main or secondary storage, how long afterward does that
> timestamp "not get maintained" (whatever that means)? Does it only
> change after a restart of the phone?

I didn't use that. I downloaded it and asked the author if it could
change the existing dates to the lastmodified dates. He said no,
Android didn't allow that.

>> Bug reports since 2011 (when was Android born?) up to a few days ago
>
> Where are those? Under https://source.android.com/setup/report-bugs?
> Got some examples?

Yes, Christian G sent me these:

File setLastModified always returns false
https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=1992

setLastModified() always fails on Xoom unless running as root
https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=18624

File.setLastModified() always returns false on Samsung Galaxy Nexus
https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=25460

--
Cheers, Bev
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again
incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.

nospam

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Nov 15, 2017, 2:45:08 PM11/15/17

to

In article <oui54e$m9t$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev

<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> I just found out that Android -- no matter which file manager you use --
> >> is incapable of maintaining the last-changed date for a file.
> >
> > What does "maintain" mean to you, er, should mean to us?
>
> I want it to mean "the date I last altered/changed/edited/whatever the
> file should stay forever no matter where I copy the file".

windows changes the mod date to when the copy was made.

> > - Are you looking at the timestamps of the files when they are on your
> > main/primary or secondary/SD storage, or after you imported them
> > or copied them elsewhere?
>
> I copied photo files (dates were the dates I took the photos) from my
> old phone to my computer to my new phone using ES File explorer for all
> copies. The dates changed to the copy date. Is it possible to mount
> the phone card without removing it from the phone? fdisk -l doesn't see it.

use the create date in exif.

VanguardLH

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Nov 15, 2017, 3:53:34 PM11/15/17

to

The Real Bev wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>>> I just found out that Android -- no matter which file manager you use --
>>> is incapable of maintaining the last-changed date for a file.
>>
>> What does "maintain" mean to you, er, should mean to us?
>
> I want it to mean "the date I last altered/changed/edited/whatever the
> file should stay forever no matter where I copy the file".

That never works under ANY operating system by default. After all, you
are creating a NEW file at the destination. You would need to use a
copy program that reads the last modified datestamp, creates the new
file (a copy), and then "touches" the new file to modify its datestamps
(created, last accessed, last modified).

>> - After creation, has the file you looked at ever been modified?
>> - Is it the same as the creation date?
>> - Does last-modified attribute zero out?
>
> No idea, I don't know how to look for that.

How did you see the datestamps before? You mentioned using several file
managers. While I have Total Commander installed, I've not used it
enough to know how to see all attributes of a file. So far, when long-
tapping a file, I can only see one datestamp (that it lets me change so
it's probably the last-modified datestamp). Maybe a different file
manager would provide more details about a file.

>> - If different (after modification), does it revert to the creation
>> date?
>> - Does it change to the date and time of when you peek at the file?
>
> That's a different thing, about which I'm unconcerned. When I use cp,
> it's automatically aliased to cp -ai. That's what I want to happen.

I thought the -p option (equal to --preserve=mode,ownership,datestamps)
or --preserve=datestamps would preserve (transfer) the datestamp
property. That is, the *new* file just created as the copy would get
the datestamps changed on it to match those for the original file.

Some commands and some of their options might not work unless rooted.

>> - Does it change when you only read the file (and with a tool that can
>> ONLY read, NOT write)?
>
> No. I don't care about that, although a lot of people would.

I had to guess what you were DOING with the file. Any tool that
modifies (edits, writes) the file would affect the last-modified
datestamp. You said the last-modified datestamp wasn't sticking so a
possibility is you did something with the file that wrote to it.

>> - Are you looking at the timestamps of the files when they are on your
>> main/primary or secondary/SD storage, or after you imported them
>> or copied them elsewhere?
>
> I copied photo files (dates were the dates I took the photos) from my
> old phone to my computer to my new phone using ES File explorer for all
> copies. The dates changed to the copy date. Is it possible to mount
> the phone card without removing it from the phone? fdisk -l doesn't see it.

You would have to check if ES Explorer has an option to preserve
datestamps when creating new files (i.e., the new files created by a
copy operation).

I dumped ES Explorer within a couple days after trialing it. While it
was loaded in the background but not visible, it was shoving fullscreen
ads in my face. This would interrupt whatever I was doing. Ads within
freeware, like a banner, is okay. Shoving ads inline with the functions
of an app to mislead the user are not okay. And popping up fullscreen
ads when the app isn't even visible is total unacceptable. So I don't
have much experience with ES Explorer to know if it has a per-operation
or global config option to preserve datestamps on copy operations which
are creating new files.

>> - After using Total Commander to change the last modified timestamp of a
>> file in main or secondary storage, how long afterward does that
>> timestamp "not get maintained" (whatever that means)? Does it only
>> change after a restart of the phone?
>
> I didn't use that. I downloaded it and asked the author if it could
> change the existing dates to the lastmodified dates. He said no,
> Android didn't allow that.

Hmm, thought Android was a Linux derivative. There's 'touch' on Linux
so I figured Android had one, too, or 3rd party app could employ the
same method. Total Commander, when I look at the properties of a file,
lets me change its datestamp but it is a per-file and manual operation
and not something employed during a copy operation.

It may be something that requires root mode to work. For the app at
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=br.com.pogsoftwares.filetimestamp,
it mentions "Easily change the last modification date and time of your
files. This app requires ROOT access ..."

I can only guess when you mentioned using the 'cp' command that you were
in an ADB shell and not because you rooted your Android device.

That app's description also mentions "On Android OS, every time you copy
a file, the last modified date of the destination file is not
preserved." Okay, but some tools do preserve datestamps, like 'cp', but
perhaps that's not doable unless rooted.

> File setLastModified always returns false
> https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=1992
>
> setLastModified() always fails on Xoom unless running as root
> https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=18624
>
> File.setLastModified() always returns false on Samsung Galaxy Nexus
> https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=25460

The 2nd one mentions "unless running as root". The first never mentions
root mode in its discussion. The 3rd is marked a duplicate of the 2nd.

Yep, looks like Android doesn't preserve (well, transfer) datestamp
attributes to a NEW file created by a copy operation. Lots of stuff you
cannot do unless rooted. The ADB shell is not root mode. I'll "play"
with my current smartphone by rooting it only after I get my next
smartphone. Then if I brick my old smartphone, no big loss (it's an
entry-level cheapie).

nospam

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Nov 15, 2017, 4:05:09 PM11/15/17

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In article <1veugbkq...@v.nguard.lh>, VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH>

wrote:

> >>> I just found out that Android -- no matter which file manager you use --
> >>> is incapable of maintaining the last-changed date for a file.
> >>
> >> What does "maintain" mean to you, er, should mean to us?
> >
> > I want it to mean "the date I last altered/changed/edited/whatever the
> > file should stay forever no matter where I copy the file".
>
> That never works under ANY operating system by default.

wrong. it does not happen on macos.

> After all, you
> are creating a NEW file at the destination.

while technically true, if *everything* is not preserved, including
both contents and metadata, then it's not a true copy.

it also doesn't matter, since she's copying photos, which embeds the
time the photo was taken in exif, along with quite a bit more. the file
system dates can be (and should be) ignored.

The Real Bev

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Nov 15, 2017, 4:47:48 PM11/15/17

to

On 11/15/2017 12:53 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> The Real Bev wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>
>>> The Real Bev wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just found out that Android -- no matter which file manager you use --
>>>> is incapable of maintaining the last-changed date for a file.
>>>
>>> What does "maintain" mean to you, er, should mean to us?
>>
>> I want it to mean "the date I last altered/changed/edited/whatever the
>> file should stay forever no matter where I copy the file".
>
> That never works under ANY operating system by default. After all, you
> are creating a NEW file at the destination. You would need to use a
> copy program that reads the last modified datestamp, creates the new
> file (a copy), and then "touches" the new file to modify its datestamps
> (created, last accessed, last modified).

In linux, cp -a works just fine. What it does while my eyes are closed
is not my problem :-)

>>> - After creation, has the file you looked at ever been modified?
>>> - Is it the same as the creation date?
>>> - Does last-modified attribute zero out?
>>
>> No idea, I don't know how to look for that.
>
> How did you see the datestamps before? You mentioned using several file
> managers. While I have Total Commander installed, I've not used it
> enough to know how to see all attributes of a file. So far, when long-
> tapping a file, I can only see one datestamp (that it lets me change so
> it's probably the last-modified datestamp). Maybe a different file
> manager would provide more details about a file.
>
>>> - If different (after modification), does it revert to the creation
>>> date?
>>> - Does it change to the date and time of when you peek at the file?
>>
>> That's a different thing, about which I'm unconcerned. When I use cp,
>> it's automatically aliased to cp -ai. That's what I want to happen.
>
> I thought the -p option (equal to --preserve=mode,ownership,datestamps)
> or --preserve=datestamps would preserve (transfer) the datestamp
> property. That is, the *new* file just created as the copy would get
> the datestamps changed on it to match those for the original file.

-a preserves everything, which is exactly what I want.

> Some commands and some of their options might not work unless rooted.
>
>>> - Does it change when you only read the file (and with a tool that can
>>> ONLY read, NOT write)?
>>
>> No. I don't care about that, although a lot of people would.
>
> I had to guess what you were DOING with the file. Any tool that
> modifies (edits, writes) the file would affect the last-modified
> datestamp. You said the last-modified datestamp wasn't sticking so a
> possibility is you did something with the file that wrote to it.

Just copy. That's all.

>>> - Are you looking at the timestamps of the files when they are on your
>>> main/primary or secondary/SD storage, or after you imported them
>>> or copied them elsewhere?
>>
>> I copied photo files (dates were the dates I took the photos) from my
>> old phone to my computer to my new phone using ES File explorer for all
>> copies. The dates changed to the copy date. Is it possible to mount
>> the phone card without removing it from the phone? fdisk -l doesn't see it.
>
> You would have to check if ES Explorer has an option to preserve
> datestamps when creating new files (i.e., the new files created by a
> copy operation).

I have to believe Christian G, who actually writes software. If he --
and the bugreports -- say it's not possible, I believe him. Rooting the
phone would permit what I want, but I'm not that desperate.

> I dumped ES Explorer within a couple days after trialing it. While it
> was loaded in the background but not visible, it was shoving fullscreen
> ads in my face. This would interrupt whatever I was doing. Ads within
> freeware, like a banner, is okay. Shoving ads inline with the functions
> of an app to mislead the user are not okay. And popping up fullscreen
> ads when the app isn't even visible is total unacceptable. So I don't
> have much experience with ES Explorer to know if it has a per-operation
> or global config option to preserve datestamps on copy operations which
> are creating new files.

Not an option. I've been using it since I got a smartphone (~5 years
ago?). It was better in the beginning; now it does shit that I don't
want and doesn't do the shit that I DO want. I wish I'd saved the
original apk.

>>> - After using Total Commander to change the last modified timestamp of a
>>> file in main or secondary storage, how long afterward does that
>>> timestamp "not get maintained" (whatever that means)? Does it only
>>> change after a restart of the phone?
>>
>> I didn't use that. I downloaded it and asked the author if it could
>> change the existing dates to the lastmodified dates. He said no,
>> Android didn't allow that.
>
> Hmm, thought Android was a Linux derivative. There's 'touch' on Linux
> so I figured Android had one, too, or 3rd party app could employ the
> same method. Total Commander, when I look at the properties of a file,
> lets me change its datestamp but it is a per-file and manual operation
> and not something employed during a copy operation.

Google can do whatever it damn well pleases, and does. A lot of its
modifications are done for its own benefit, not the users'. Maybe
most/all.

> It may be something that requires root mode to work. For the app at
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=br.com.pogsoftwares.filetimestamp,
> it mentions "Easily change the last modification date and time of your
> files. This app requires ROOT access ..."

All the important stuff requires root access.

> I can only guess when you mentioned using the 'cp' command that you were
> in an ADB shell and not because you rooted your Android device.

cp on the computer, not the phone.

> That app's description also mentions "On Android OS, every time you copy
> a file, the last modified date of the destination file is not
> preserved." Okay, but some tools do preserve datestamps, like 'cp', but
> perhaps that's not doable unless rooted.
>
>> File setLastModified always returns false
>> https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=1992
>>
>> setLastModified() always fails on Xoom unless running as root
>> https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=18624
>>
>> File.setLastModified() always returns false on Samsung Galaxy Nexus
>> https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=25460
>
> The 2nd one mentions "unless running as root". The first never mentions
> root mode in its discussion. The 3rd is marked a duplicate of the 2nd.
>
> Yep, looks like Android doesn't preserve (well, transfer) datestamp
> attributes to a NEW file created by a copy operation. Lots of stuff you
> cannot do unless rooted. The ADB shell is not root mode. I'll "play"
> with my current smartphone by rooting it only after I get my next
> smartphone. Then if I brick my old smartphone, no big loss (it's an
> entry-level cheapie).

--
Cheers,
Bev
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Friends help you move. *Real* friends help you move bodies."
--A. Walker

The Real Bev

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Nov 15, 2017, 6:50:53 PM11/15/17

to

Joy. I mounted the card on my computer, used the command 'jhead -ft
*.jpg' on the subdirectories in question, put the card back in the
phone, and everything was arranged properly. It also works with .png files.

"Jhead is a program for manipulating settings and thumbnails in Exif
jpeg headers
used by most Digital Cameras. v3.00 Matthias Wandel, Jan 30 2013."
http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/jhead

There's a windows version too.

--
Cheers, Bev
"In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime
is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin
is stupidity." -- H.S. Thompson

John B.

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Nov 15, 2017, 7:01:20 PM11/15/17

to

But that is what Linux, and by extension Android, does, isn't it. If
you copy a file then the new file is exactly that, a new file, and the
creation date is the date which you created it.

Re mounting the phone card... I can't comment on the Latest and
Greatest Android's but from at least ver 2.0 up to ver 6.0.1 you can
connect the phone to a Linux computer using a USB cable and the
attached phone appears as two sub directories under a main directory
named "SAMSUNG Android" that magically appears on the desktop. When I
plug the phone into the USB cable it requires an option on the phone
"Device Status/Transfer Media Files" be selected, whereupon the SD
card at least acts just as any other directory. I've never tried to
cop to the phone's interior memory but it seems to be possible.

>> - After using Total Commander to change the last modified timestamp of a
>> file in main or secondary storage, how long afterward does that
>> timestamp "not get maintained" (whatever that means)? Does it only
>> change after a restart of the phone?
>
>I didn't use that. I downloaded it and asked the author if it could
>change the existing dates to the lastmodified dates. He said no,
>Android didn't allow that.
>
>>> Bug reports since 2011 (when was Android born?) up to a few days ago
>>
>> Where are those? Under https://source.android.com/setup/report-bugs?
>> Got some examples?
>
>Yes, Christian G sent me these:
>
>File setLastModified always returns false
>https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=1992
>
>setLastModified() always fails on Xoom unless running as root
>https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=18624
>
>File.setLastModified() always returns false on Samsung Galaxy Nexus
>https://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=25460
--
Cheers,

John B.

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Nov 15, 2017, 7:12:45 PM11/15/17

to

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 13:47:45 -0800, The Real Bev
<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 11/15/2017 12:53 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>> The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Real Bev wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I just found out that Android -- no matter which file manager you use --
>>>>> is incapable of maintaining the last-changed date for a file.
>>>>
>>>> What does "maintain" mean to you, er, should mean to us?
>>>
>>> I want it to mean "the date I last altered/changed/edited/whatever the
>>> file should stay forever no matter where I copy the file".
>>
>> That never works under ANY operating system by default. After all, you
>> are creating a NEW file at the destination. You would need to use a
>> copy program that reads the last modified datestamp, creates the new
>> file (a copy), and then "touches" the new file to modify its datestamps
>> (created, last accessed, last modified).
>
>In linux, cp -a works just fine. What it does while my eyes are closed
>is not my problem :-)

But in that case you are specifying that cp make an archive copy. The
Linux "cp" App has something like 30 options... So you have to tell it
what you want it to do, which I believe that you previously mentioned
you had done on your Linux machine by aliasing the "cp" command.

Android is said to "be based on Linux", not "a copy of Linux".

John B.

Ken Blake

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Nov 15, 2017, 7:59:42 PM11/15/17

to

On Thu, 16 Nov 2017 07:01:17 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>But that is what Linux, and by extension Android, does, isn't it.

Yes, and it's also what Windows does.

Libor 'Poutnik' Stříž

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Nov 16, 2017, 1:54:21 AM11/16/17

to

Dne 15/11/2017 v 20:45 nospam napsal(a):

>
>>> - Are you looking at the timestamps of the files when they are on your
>>> main/primary or secondary/SD storage, or after you imported them
>>> or copied them elsewhere?
>>
>> I copied photo files (dates were the dates I took the photos) from my
>> old phone to my computer to my new phone using ES File explorer for all
>> copies. The dates changed to the copy date. Is it possible to mount
>> the phone card without removing it from the phone? fdisk -l doesn't see it.
>
> use the create date in exif.
>

I.e. Irfanview can perform batch changing
of file modified timestamp to the one from EXIF.

--
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )

A wise man guards words he says,
as they say about him more,
than he says about the subject.

nospam

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Nov 16, 2017, 1:59:08 AM11/16/17

to

In article <oujcms$ce$1...@dont-email.me>, Libor 'Poutnik' St?í?

<pou...@privacy.net> wrote:

> >
> > use the create date in exif.
>
> I.e. Irfanview can perform batch changing
> of file modified timestamp to the one from EXIF.

there's no point in that. asset managers read the exif and sort based
on that directly.

Libor 'Poutnik' Stříž

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Nov 16, 2017, 2:01:42 AM11/16/17

to

Dne 15/11/2017 v 22:05 nospam napsal(a):

>
>> After all, you
>> are creating a NEW file at the destination.
>
> while technically true, if *everything* is not preserved, including
> both contents and metadata, then it's not a true copy.
>

Creation date is date of creation of the file system item,
not date of creation of the file content.

So in your sense, true copies do not exist,
unless processed in parallel like in a RAID redundant array,
or if creation date is faked.

Libor 'Poutnik' Stříž

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Nov 16, 2017, 2:33:20 AM11/16/17

to

Dne 16/11/2017 v 07:59 nospam napsal(a):

As I use it routinly for JPGs from my Canon camera,
there is a point in doing so.

Note that I do not use the dedicated Canon photo manager,
whatever is its real name, as it seems bloated to me.

Eli the Bearded

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Nov 16, 2017, 4:14:30 AM11/16/17

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In comp.mobile.android,

Libor 'Poutnik' StÅ íž <poutnikRE...@gmailCAPITALS.com> wrote:
> Creation date is date of creation of the file system item,
> not date of creation of the file content.

I've been reading this topic with some bemusement. The standard Unix
filesystems, of which efs[234] are fairly close mimics (for this
purpose), store three time stamps:

atime: Access time: last time the file was *read*
mtime: Change time: last time the file was *written*
ctime: Inode time: last time the inode metadata was changed

Note the complete lack of "creation" there. (Also note that 'cp',
reading a file to copy it, changes the access time.)

Other filesystems store diffent timestamps, and Linux copes well with
ones storing more or less: suppression of atime is common for reasons
like "faster perfomance" and "fewer writes", and facilities like
snapshots have different timestamp needs.

> So in your sense, true copies do not exist,

$ mknod this-is-not-a-pipe p
$ cat < this-is-not-a-pipe &

[1] 1421
$ echo or is it > this-is-not-a-pipe
$ or is it

[1] + Done cat < this-is-not-a-pipe &
$

(Run it in termux, if you want to do it on your Android device.)

Elijah
------
the magnetic field is slightly different, it's not a true copy

Renee Keller

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Nov 16, 2017, 9:58:14 AM11/16/17

to

>I just found out that Android -- no matter which file manager you use --
> is incapable of maintaining the last-changed date for a file. Bug reports
> since 2011 (when was Android born?) up to a few days ago. What a STUPID
> and offensive thing.
>

Files typically contain 3 date and time stamps.

CREATION
LAST MODIFIED
LAST ACCESSED

But making a copy will alter this such as the LAST MODIFIED.

This data will also vary from File system and OS.

The Real Bev

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Nov 16, 2017, 11:06:03 AM11/16/17

to

On 11/15/2017 11:33 PM, Libor 'Poutnik' Stříž wrote:
> Dne 16/11/2017 v 07:59 nospam napsal(a):
>> In article <oujcms$ce$1...@dont-email.me>, Libor 'Poutnik' St?í?
>> <pou...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> use the create date in exif.
>>>
>>> I.e. Irfanview can perform batch changing
>>> of file modified timestamp to the one from EXIF.

I like Irfanview. I wish he'd convert it to linux. Picasa is very good
for the limited editing I want to do -- gimp is definite overkill.

>> there's no point in that. asset managers read the exif and sort based
>> on that directly.
>>
> As I use it routinly for JPGs from my Canon camera,
> there is a point in doing so.

A simple little program called jhead will do a number of useful things
with the exif data on files or subdirectories.
http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/jhead/

> Note that I do not use the dedicated Canon photo manager,
> whatever is its real name, as it seems bloated to me.

I've got a Canon scanner and camera, the software for which is
windows-only. I'll never buy another Canon product. The lens on my
older Nikon CP800 is better than the one on the Canon A720IS, but
neither shows any sign of impending death so I'll probably never need to
replace them.

--
Cheers, Bev
Guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.

Eli the Bearded

unread,

Nov 16, 2017, 1:04:21 PM11/16/17

to

In comp.mobile.android, Renee Keller <rke...@aol.com> wrote:
> Files typically contain 3 date and time stamps.
>
> CREATION

[citation needed]

> LAST MODIFIED
> LAST ACCESSED
>
> But making a copy will alter this such as the LAST MODIFIED.

Copy needs to read the file, so it changes LAST ACCESSED, no?

> This data will also vary from File system and OS.

On this point I agree.

Elijah
------
will accept source code (including .h header files) as a citation

nospam

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Nov 16, 2017, 2:30:32 PM11/16/17

to

In article <oujevv$9q3$2...@dont-email.me>, Libor 'Poutnik' St?í?

<pou...@privacy.net> wrote:

> >>> use the create date in exif.
> >>
> >> I.e. Irfanview can perform batch changing
> >> of file modified timestamp to the one from EXIF.
> >
> > there's no point in that. asset managers read the exif and sort based
> > on that directly.
> >
> As I use it routinly for JPGs from my Canon camera,
> there is a point in doing so.

then your workflow is not optimal.

> Note that I do not use the dedicated Canon photo manager,
> whatever is its real name, as it seems bloated to me.

software from the camera makers is usually not all that good and often
comparatively slow, but it often results in more accurate results
because the camera makers know the precise characteristics of the
sensors and the meaning of the metadata in the maker notes, whereas
third party developers have to reverse engineer it.

nospam

unread,

Nov 16, 2017, 2:30:32 PM11/16/17

to

In article <oujd4l$2ke$1...@dont-email.me>, Libor 'Poutnik' St?í?

<pou...@privacy.net> wrote:

>
> >
> >> After all, you
> >> are creating a NEW file at the destination.
> >
> > while technically true, if *everything* is not preserved, including
> > both contents and metadata, then it's not a true copy.
> >
> Creation date is date of creation of the file system item,
> not date of creation of the file content.

the file system item is meaningless without the contents of the file.

> So in your sense, true copies do not exist,
> unless processed in parallel like in a RAID redundant array,
> or if creation date is faked.

there's no need to fake anything. just use an operating system that
properly copies files. if there's a difference, no matter how slight,
then it's not a true copy. it's a bug.

Libor 'Poutnik' Stříž

unread,

Nov 16, 2017, 2:39:36 PM11/16/17

to

Dne 16/11/2017 v 20:30 nospam napsal(a):

> In article <oujd4l$2ke$1...@dont-email.me>, Libor 'Poutnik' St?í?
> <pou...@privacy.net> wrote:
>

>>>
>> Creation date is date of creation of the file system item,
>> not date of creation of the file content.
>
> the file system item is meaningless without the contents of the file.

Not in mentioned context.

>
>> So in your sense, true copies do not exist,
>> unless processed in parallel like in a RAID redundant array,
>> or if creation date is faked.
>
> there's no need to fake anything. just use an operating system that
> properly copies files. if there's a difference, no matter how slight,
> then it's not a true copy. it's a bug.
>

The metadata are not part of data.

nospam

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Nov 16, 2017, 2:45:36 PM11/16/17

to

In article <oukphn$n72$1...@dont-email.me>, Libor 'Poutnik' St?í?

<pou...@privacy.net> wrote:

> >
> >> So in your sense, true copies do not exist,
> >> unless processed in parallel like in a RAID redundant array,
> >> or if creation date is faked.
> >
> > there's no need to fake anything. just use an operating system that
> > properly copies files. if there's a difference, no matter how slight,
> > then it's not a true copy. it's a bug.
> >
> The metadata are not part of data.

it's part of the file.

Libor 'Poutnik' Stříž

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Nov 16, 2017, 2:53:11 PM11/16/17

to

Dne 16/11/2017 v 20:45 nospam napsal(a):

No, it is part of MFT on NTFS, or of FAT32 folder.

nospam

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Nov 16, 2017, 3:03:06 PM11/16/17

to

In article <oukqb7$in$2...@dont-email.me>, Libor 'Poutnik' St?í?

<pou...@privacy.net> wrote:

> >>>> So in your sense, true copies do not exist,
> >>>> unless processed in parallel like in a RAID redundant array,
> >>>> or if creation date is faked.
> >>>
> >>> there's no need to fake anything. just use an operating system that
> >>> properly copies files. if there's a difference, no matter how slight,
> >>> then it's not a true copy. it's a bug.
> >>>
> >> The metadata are not part of data.
> >
> > it's part of the file.
> >
> No, it is part of MFT on NTFS, or of FAT32 folder.

implementation detail.

depending on the file system, a file's data can be entirely contained
within the catalog on some file systems in some cases.

users expect a copy of something to be a full and complete copy.

if you photocopy a document, does the date printed at the top change to
the date you made the copy? no. so why should a file? it shouldn't.

Libor 'Poutnik' Stříž

unread,

Nov 16, 2017, 3:28:22 PM11/16/17

to

Dne 16/11/2017 v 21:03 nospam napsal(a):

What users expect is not important.
What is important is, how are particular timestamps defined.

nospam

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Nov 16, 2017, 3:45:18 PM11/16/17

to

In article <ouksd6$hrl$1...@dont-email.me>, Libor 'Poutnik' St?í?

<pou...@privacy.net> wrote:

> >>>
> >> No, it is part of MFT on NTFS, or of FAT32 folder.
> >
> > implementation detail.
> >
> > depending on the file system, a file's data can be entirely contained
> > within the catalog on some file systems in some cases.
> >
> > users expect a copy of something to be a full and complete copy.
> >
> > if you photocopy a document, does the date printed at the top change to
> > the date you made the copy? no. so why should a file? it shouldn't.
>
> What users expect is not important.

nonsense. not only is it important, but it's the *only* thing that
matters.

> What is important is, how are particular timestamps defined.

only to those writing file system level code.

for normal every day users, that makes absolutely no difference
whatsoever.

Libor 'Poutnik' Stříž

unread,

Nov 17, 2017, 1:56:58 AM11/17/17

to

Dne 16/11/2017 v 21:45 nospam napsal(a):

> In article <ouksd6$hrl$1...@dont-email.me>, Libor 'Poutnik' St?í?
> <pou...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>>>>
>>>> No, it is part of MFT on NTFS, or of FAT32 folder.
>>>
>>> implementation detail.
>>>
>>> depending on the file system, a file's data can be entirely contained
>>> within the catalog on some file systems in some cases.
>>>
>>> users expect a copy of something to be a full and complete copy.
>>>
>>> if you photocopy a document, does the date printed at the top change to
>>> the date you made the copy? no. so why should a file? it shouldn't.
>>
>> What users expect is not important.
>
> nonsense. not only is it important, but it's the *only* thing that
> matters.

Misunderstanding does not justify false expectations.

>> What is important is, how are particular timestamps defined.
>
> only to those writing file system level code.
>
> for normal every day users, that makes absolutely no difference
> whatsoever.

If their expectations follow the definitions.

Daniel James

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Nov 20, 2017, 9:34:44 AM11/20/17

to

In article <oukd1a$nv7$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev wrote:
> I've got a Canon scanner and camera, the software for which is
> windows-only. I'll never buy another Canon product.

I have an Epson scanner. Epson provide a basic TWAIN driver for Linux
so Linux apps can drive the scanner in their usual ways -- and that all
works well -- but part of the value proposition for the scanner was
suite of third-party image manipulation programs that came with it, and
they're all Windows-only.

Sometimes you just can't win.

I also have a Canon camera, and (as you say) all the software that came
with it is Windows-only ... but that's less limiting. You don't
actually need any software to use the camera: you can always take the
SD card out and read the files (and there are Linux 'developers' to
read Canon's CR2 RAW format and produce JPEGs, some even allow you to
manipulate the light/colour balance in the process).

--
Cheers,
Daniel.

The Real Bev

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Nov 20, 2017, 12:15:04 PM11/20/17

to

On 11/20/2017 06:34 AM, Daniel James wrote:
> In article <oukd1a$nv7$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev wrote:
>> I've got a Canon scanner and camera, the software for which is
>> windows-only. I'll never buy another Canon product.
>
> I have an Epson scanner. Epson provide a basic TWAIN driver for Linux
> so Linux apps can drive the scanner in their usual ways -- and that all
> works well -- but part of the value proposition for the scanner was
> suite of third-party image manipulation programs that came with it, and
> they're all Windows-only.

I've wondered if it might be possible to run it under wine, but not
enough to actually try it. I got 'notepad' to run under wine, but
that's pretty simple.

> Sometimes you just can't win.
>
> I also have a Canon camera, and (as you say) all the software that came
> with it is Windows-only ... but that's less limiting. You don't
> actually need any software to use the camera: you can always take the
> SD card out and read the files (and there are Linux 'developers' to
> read Canon's CR2 RAW format and produce JPEGs, some even allow you to
> manipulate the light/colour balance in the process).

GIMP does a lot of stuff, but the learning curve is sufficiently steep
that the only things I ever used it for were (1) red-eye correction
until Picasa added that; and (2) the 'view camera' adjustments to
straighten photos of tall buildings taken from the ground. Google has
thoughtfully provided a photo-editing program called Snapseed that
corrects perspective IN THE PHONE before I copy it to the computer, so
my laziness has been rewarded.

I suppose I'll find out Snapseed's downside pretty soon...

--
Cheers, Bev
Will give investment advice for food.

Chris

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Nov 20, 2017, 1:25:39 PM11/20/17

to

The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Gimp is simply a photo editor, you want a photo manager like digikam. I
manage my whole photo library on linux. There are a few choices in linux
which are far better than any free software you get with the camera.

I'd say it is no loss to not have to use that software especially when the
hardware is good. Many canon scanners also work fine under linux.

The Real Bev

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Nov 20, 2017, 2:38:10 PM11/20/17

to

I looked at that once. Not sufficiently interested to use it.

Only photo editing was mentioned.

My friend has sufficient trouble with lightroom's management that I'm
unwilling to let ANYTHING exclusively manage my photos. Each one is
named with the date/hour/min/sec taken. Originals and edited versions
are kept in two different subdirectories. Picasa can help me hunt for
what I want, but I'm satisfied to do most of it by hand. I try to [ I
think there was a thread about this :-) ] remember to reset the filedate
after I save and export the edit, but sometimes I forget.

For basic photo editing, Picasa (linux version is really the windows
version running under its accompanying wine program) works really
nicely. I'd like the 'straighten' function to work in 2 dimensions, but
people in Hell want ice water.

> I manage my whole photo library on linux. There are a few choices in
> linux which are far better than any free software you get with the
> camera.

See above.

> I'd say it is no loss to not have to use that software especially
> when the hardware is good. Many canon scanners also work fine under
> linux.

Not mine. Inexpensive, but with 2x2 slide scanning capability, which is
what I wanted it for. It's a lovely scanner, but I haven't used it for
several years -- taking a photo with my camera or phone and then sending
it as an email attachment is generally satisfactory.

Brother and Samsung are linux-friendly. Why should I support someone
who isn't?

--
Cheers, Bev
"America is at an awkward stage: it is too late to work within the
system, but it is too early to shoot the bastards." -Claire Wolfe

nospam

unread,

Nov 20, 2017, 4:42:56 PM11/20/17

to

In article <oum17p$44g$1...@dont-email.me>, Libor 'Poutnik' St?í?

<pou...@privacy.net> wrote:

> >>>> No, it is part of MFT on NTFS, or of FAT32 folder.
> >>>
> >>> implementation detail.
> >>>
> >>> depending on the file system, a file's data can be entirely contained
> >>> within the catalog on some file systems in some cases.
> >>>
> >>> users expect a copy of something to be a full and complete copy.
> >>>
> >>> if you photocopy a document, does the date printed at the top change to
> >>> the date you made the copy? no. so why should a file? it shouldn't.
> >>
> >> What users expect is not important.
> >
> > nonsense. not only is it important, but it's the *only* thing that
> > matters.
>
> Misunderstanding does not justify false expectations.

it's not a false expectation.

if the user has to contort their thinking to how a computer works
internally, then the developer has failed.

> >> What is important is, how are particular timestamps defined.
> >
> > only to those writing file system level code.
> >
> > for normal every day users, that makes absolutely no difference
> > whatsoever.
>
> If their expectations follow the definitions.

they follow basic logic and common sense.

Daniel James

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Nov 21, 2017, 8:16:55 AM11/21/17

to

In article <ouv2in$jtb$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev wrote:
> I've wondered if it might be possible to run it under wine, but not
> enough to actually try it. I got 'notepad' to run under wine, but
> that's pretty simple.

Wine is getting pretty capable, these days ... but I am beginning to
wonder whether that makes it a bit of a liability. One of the nice
things about Linux is that most Windows malware won't run on it, but if
wine is installed ...?

>> I also have a Canon camera ... take the SD card out and read the

>> files (and there are Linux 'developers' to read Canon's CR2 RAW
>> format and produce JPEGs, some even allow you to
>> manipulate the light/colour balance in the process).
>
> GIMP does a lot of stuff, but the learning curve is sufficiently steep
> that the only things I ever used it for were (1) red-eye correction
> until Picasa added that; and (2) the 'view camera' adjustments to
> straighten photos of tall buildings taken from the ground.

Yes ... and this particular walnut can also be cracked with a smaller
hammer :-)

I've been using Shotwell as a photo manager with some editing facilities
built in. It converts the .CR2 files to jpeg on import, and does so
quite well but without much sophistication. Thereafter Shotwell just
works with the JPEG version, and provides some colour/contrast
manipulation, cropping, straightening and red-eye removal.

If I really need to get more out of the RAW data than Shotwell can
manage I can use an external editor like ufraw and import its JPEG image
to Shotwell.

I think Canon's Windows photo manager makes it easier to get the best
out of a RAW image (and has built-in image correction functions for most
Canon lenses -- very useful for wise-angle zoom lenses that distort and
show significant colour-fringing around the edge of the frame), but the
Linux tools work well enough most of the time.

--
Cheers,
Daniel.

nospam

unread,

Nov 21, 2017, 10:58:42 AM11/21/17

to

In article <VA.00000cb...@me.invalid>, Daniel James

<dan...@me.invalid> wrote:

> I've been using Shotwell as a photo manager with some editing facilities
> built in. It converts the .CR2 files to jpeg on import, and does so
> quite well but without much sophistication. Thereafter Shotwell just
> works with the JPEG version, and provides some colour/contrast
> manipulation, cropping, straightening and red-eye removal.

by converting to jpeg on import, you're losing the advantage of
shooting raw.

you might as well just shoot jpeg in camera and benefit from canon's
raw conversion as well as be able to shoot more photos per card.

> If I really need to get more out of the RAW data than Shotwell can
> manage I can use an external editor like ufraw and import its JPEG image
> to Shotwell.

that's extra work, plus ufraw is among the worst quality raw conversion
of the various raw converters.

> I think Canon's Windows photo manager makes it easier to get the best
> out of a RAW image (and has built-in image correction functions for most
> Canon lenses -- very useful for wise-angle zoom lenses that distort and
> show significant colour-fringing around the edge of the frame), but the
> Linux tools work well enough most of the time.

only if poor results are acceptable.

The Real Bev

unread,

Nov 21, 2017, 11:38:57 AM11/21/17

to

On 11/21/2017 05:16 AM, Daniel James wrote:
> In article <ouv2in$jtb$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev wrote:
>> I've wondered if it might be possible to run it under wine, but not
>> enough to actually try it. I got 'notepad' to run under wine, but
>> that's pretty simple.
>
> Wine is getting pretty capable, these days ... but I am beginning to
> wonder whether that makes it a bit of a liability. One of the nice
> things about Linux is that most Windows malware won't run on it, but if
> wine is installed ...?

I would have liked to use it for HRBlock's tax software, but it refused
in some way. Easy enough to turn on my windows machine, though.

>>> I also have a Canon camera ... take the SD card out and read the
>>> files (and there are Linux 'developers' to read Canon's CR2 RAW
>>> format and produce JPEGs, some even allow you to
>>> manipulate the light/colour balance in the process).
>>
>> GIMP does a lot of stuff, but the learning curve is sufficiently steep
>> that the only things I ever used it for were (1) red-eye correction
>> until Picasa added that; and (2) the 'view camera' adjustments to
>> straighten photos of tall buildings taken from the ground.
>
> Yes ... and this particular walnut can also be cracked with a smaller
> hammer :-)

I'm at the point where "good enough" is actually good enough!

--
Cheers, Bev
If I know that chaining yourself to a dead cow is stupid,
how come Carly makes so much more money than I do?

Chris

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Nov 21, 2017, 1:14:58 PM11/21/17

to

That's the point. a photo manager reads the photo's exif data which has the
date and time info already. No need to remember anything. Also, it's not
exclusive. You can set up your photo library on the filesystem as you want
as well as get the benefit of a manager. Digikam doesn't care as long as
they're in one directory tree.

But, hey, it's only a suggestion.

> Brother and Samsung are linux-friendly. Why should I support someone
> who isn't?

In terms of cameras, the best companies are hardware cos not software. Go
for the best hardware. There are always software solutions.

The Real Bev

unread,

Nov 21, 2017, 1:43:04 PM11/21/17

to

I want to do things myself. When I was doing shit with dBaseII I liked
looking at the data itself, indexing in various ways, only generating
reports when I needed to publish something. I am untrusting by nature :-)

>> Brother and Samsung are linux-friendly. Why should I support someone
>> who isn't?
>
> In terms of cameras, the best companies are hardware cos not software. Go
> for the best hardware. There are always software solutions.

Indeed. If I need to buy another camera I'll go with Nikon. The lens
on the CP800 was better than the 7-years-newer Canon's, and I wasn't
made aware that Nikon was linux-hostile.

--
Cheers, Bev
Politicians are stupid like cats are stupid.

Daniel James

unread,

Nov 22, 2017, 12:48:34 PM11/22/17

to

In article <211120171058425041%nos...@nospam.invalid>, Nospam wrote:
> by converting to jpeg on import, you're losing the advantage of
> shooting raw.

Yes, I appreciate that ... but I find a picture for which I want better
colour handling I still have the RAW image and can use a different
developer.

> you might as well just shoot jpeg in camera and benefit from canon's
> raw conversion as well as be able to shoot more photos per card.

I'm not sure that Canon (in the camera) does it any better ... the Canon
(Windows) PC utility (Digital Photo Professional) gives a bit more
control, as do ufraw and others on Linux.

> ... ufraw is among the worst quality raw conversion of the various
> raw converters.

What would you suggest, then (on Linux)?

>> ... the Linux tools work well enough most of the time.

>
> only if poor results are acceptable.

<shrug> For some values of "poor". I have the RAW images and can dress
them up as much as I like when I want an excellent result, most of the
time what you call "poor" is good enough, at least for a first pass.

--
Cheers,
Daniel.

Chris

unread,

Nov 22, 2017, 1:22:33 PM11/22/17

to

The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/21/2017 10:14 AM, Chris wrote:
>> The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> That's the point. a photo manager reads the photo's exif data which has the
>> date and time info already. No need to remember anything. Also, it's not
>> exclusive. You can set up your photo library on the filesystem as you want
>> as well as get the benefit of a manager. Digikam doesn't care as long as
>> they're in one directory tree.
>>
>> But, hey, it's only a suggestion.
>
> I want to do things myself. When I was doing shit with dBaseII I liked
> looking at the data itself, indexing in various ways, only generating
> reports when I needed to publish something. I am untrusting by nature :-)

Digikam uses an sqlite database to manage the photo library's metadata.
Perfectly hackable if you're interested. I've done a couple things directly
on the database in the past.

Chris

unread,

Nov 22, 2017, 1:22:33 PM11/22/17

to

Daniel James <dan...@me.invalid> wrote:
> In article <ouv2in$jtb$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev wrote:
>> I've wondered if it might be possible to run it under wine, but not
>> enough to actually try it. I got 'notepad' to run under wine, but
>> that's pretty simple.
>
> Wine is getting pretty capable, these days ... but I am beginning to
> wonder whether that makes it a bit of a liability. One of the nice
> things about Linux is that most Windows malware won't run on it, but if
> wine is installed ...?

Someone tried this, although quite a few years ago.
http://web.archive.org/web/20100208215943/http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/42031

The Real Bev

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Nov 22, 2017, 4:04:51 PM11/22/17

to

Thanks, but no thanks. There are things I never want to do again :-( I
can see that it would be useful to learn SQL, but not useful enough to
actually do it.

Since I upload my edited photos to google photos, I suppose I could use
their image-search engine to find the photo I'm looking for, assuming
words can describe it adequately. I should try that. I'm actually
interested in finding the screenshot of the app that clocked me at 53.x
MPH on a ski slope maybe 5 years ago...

--
Cheers, Bev
======================================================================
Eat this, NSA: bomb assassinate Washington North Korea Iraq spy poison
ISIS AlQaeda Bush Clinton Pelosi Reid

nospam

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Nov 22, 2017, 4:08:09 PM11/22/17

to

In article <ov4opi$1cj$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev

<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Since I upload my edited photos to google photos, I suppose I could use
> their image-search engine to find the photo I'm looking for, assuming
> words can describe it adequately. I should try that. I'm actually
> interested in finding the screenshot of the app that clocked me at 53.x
> MPH on a ski slope maybe 5 years ago...

'skiing photos from 5 years ago'

The Real Bev

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Nov 22, 2017, 4:18:41 PM11/22/17

to

By searching for "blue" the best I could do was the 47.7mph day.

Ah-HAH! By searching for Garmin (I was using a Forerunner in March
2013) I found it, along with the notation that the "max speed" in one
screen was different from the max speed on another. I'll go with the
53.7 because it scared the shit out of me -- 40.x doesn't :-)

Hmph. I seem to have proved that I'm full of shit...

Lightroom APK

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Jun 20, 2023, 3:56:38 AM6/20/23

to

Mod Apk

unread,

Sep 1, 2023, 6:30:56 AM9/1/23

to

On Wednesday, 15 November 2017 at 23:25:24 UTC+5, The Real Bev wrote:
> I just found out that Android -- no matter which file manager you use --
> is incapable of maintaining the last-changed date for a file. Bug
> reports since 2011 (when was Android born?) up to a few days ago. What
> a STUPID and offensive thing.
>
> The Total Commander writer wrote back to me. Good guy. I wish I wanted
> to use that file manager, but the one by Flashlight+Clock is simpler. I
> like simple.
>
> Google does something nice and then cripples it. Somewhere in their
> corporate structure is a real bastard with a lot of authority.
>
> I'm going to try taking the sdcard out and copying my photo files back
> to the card with the computer rather than letting the phone handle part
> of the process as I did before.
>
> --
> Cheers, Bev
> "I believe that forgiving [terrorists] is God's function.
> Our job is to arrange the meeting."
> - Norman Schwartzkopf

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