Google off-line maps expiration?

[The Real Bev]

No data plan.

When I update them at home over wifi it says they're good for a year.
BUT they seem to go haywire if you don't update within some much shorter
period -- like a month. WTF?

Especially annoying if you're trusting it to tell you about traffic in
an intricate 20-mile route through Los Angeles/Beverly Hills on surface
streets because that's just what you have to do and it takes you in a
circle...

--
Cheers, Bev
I've enjoyed just about as much of this as I can stand.

[nospam]

In article <s791ke$sbg$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev
<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> No data plan.

that's why.

> When I update them at home over wifi it says they're good for a year.
> BUT they seem to go haywire if you don't update within some much shorter
> period -- like a month. WTF?

they expire in 15 days, at the most:

<https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838?hl=en>
Offline maps that you downloaded on your phone or tablet need to be
updated before they expire. When your offline maps expire in 15 days
or less, Google Maps will try to update the area automatically when
you're connected to Wi-Fi.

> Especially annoying if you're trusting it to tell you about traffic in
> an intricate 20-mile route through Los Angeles/Beverly Hills on surface
> streets because that's just what you have to do and it takes you in a
> circle...

traffic can change at any time and requires a data plan for real-time
information.

[NY]

"nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:090520211459239530%nos...@nospam.invalid...

Maps are not traffic information. In the past I've downloaded Google map
tiles of places that I've been going to, and I've been able to access them
offline at any time before the stated expiry date which is around a year. I
know it's been offline because I've been able to do so on a cruise ship
where I'm not connected to the ship's rip-off-rate wifi and I've turned off
mobile data to avoid being charged for that, at even more extortionate
rates.

When I'm in port, I tend to have mobile data turned on, and this has (in the
past) been charged at normal UK rate (ie included in my monthly data limit)
for places in Europe - both in EU, such as Belgium/Germany/Netherlands,
Sweden, Denmark; and outside EU, such as Norway. But that's not been
necessary for the maps to work.

Obviously traffic changes minute by minute, so I don't get that offline, but
streets remain the same for months if not years.


Nowadays I tend to use Open Streetmaps more than Google Maps, and OSM *does*
need online access. But that's because I prefer the level of detail on OSM
that is missing on Google Maps.


I'm puzzled by the OP's reference to "trusting it to tell you about traffic

in an intricate 20-mile route through Los Angeles/Beverly Hills on surface

streets" - that word "traffic" makes my wonder how he expects transient
information like traffic jams to be available offline. But for
route-planning, ignoring traffic, offline maps should be fine.


There are also Android apps such as Here Maps which have an offline mode and
require you to download a map of a whole country in advance, but that
(AFAIK) *never* expires, even if its info becomes "stale" when a new road
opens or an existing road is diverted. I use it a lot as a satnav in the UK
because mobile reception can be patchy.

[The Real Bev]

On 05/09/2021 01:10 PM, NY wrote:
> "nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:090520211459239530%nos...@nospam.invalid...
>> In article <s791ke$sbg$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev
>> <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> No data plan.
>>
>> that's why.
>>
>>> When I update them at home over wifi it says they're good for a year.
>>> BUT they seem to go haywire if you don't update within some much shorter
>>> period -- like a month. WTF?
>>
>> they expire in 15 days, at the most:
>>
>> <https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838?hl=en>
>> Offline maps that you downloaded on your phone or tablet need to be
>> updated before they expire. When your offline maps expire in 15 days
>> or less, Google Maps will try to update the area automatically when
>> you're connected to Wi-Fi.

So why does it give a 1-year expiration date? Would Google actually LIE
to us?

>>> Especially annoying if you're trusting it to tell you about traffic in
>>> an intricate 20-mile route through Los Angeles/Beverly Hills on surface
>>> streets because that's just what you have to do and it takes you in a
>>> circle...
>>
>> traffic can change at any time and requires a data plan for real-time
>> information.

I understand that. BUT I'm confused when The Nice Lady tells me that
she's rerouting me to save two minutes. This makes no sense unless,
like the Garmin, it gets traffic info via RF. Or if I somehow
automatically connected momentarily using somebody's open wifi
connection, which seems unlikely.

> Maps are not traffic information. In the past I've downloaded Google map
> tiles of places that I've been going to, and I've been able to access them
> offline at any time before the stated expiry date which is around a year. I
> know it's been offline because I've been able to do so on a cruise ship
> where I'm not connected to the ship's rip-off-rate wifi and I've turned off
> mobile data to avoid being charged for that, at even more extortionate
> rates.

15 days. 1 year. Somebody is lying.

> When I'm in port, I tend to have mobile data turned on, and this has (in the
> past) been charged at normal UK rate (ie included in my monthly data limit)
> for places in Europe - both in EU, such as Belgium/Germany/Netherlands,
> Sweden, Denmark; and outside EU, such as Norway. But that's not been
> necessary for the maps to work.
>
> Obviously traffic changes minute by minute, so I don't get that offline, but
> streets remain the same for months if not years.

Another interesting factoid: the route chosen by my linux desktop was
different from that chosen by the Pixel2 app. I liked the one from the
computer better, so I went that way. The app kept trying to force me
back to ITS preference rather than adjust. At one point it ran me up a
steep hill and down the other side, demanded a left turn and then put me
back on the street I was on before it took me up the hill.

I can only attribute this to vindictiveness.

> Nowadays I tend to use Open Streetmaps more than Google Maps, and OSM *does*
> need online access. But that's because I prefer the level of detail on OSM
> that is missing on Google Maps.

I liked the OSMand display better, but it was REALLY battery-hungry.
CoPilot was better, but I got tired of learning new GUIs.

> I'm puzzled by the OP's reference to "trusting it to tell you about traffic
> in an intricate 20-mile route through Los Angeles/Beverly Hills on surface
> streets" - that word "traffic" makes my wonder how he expects transient
> information like traffic jams to be available offline. But for
> route-planning, ignoring traffic, offline maps should be fine.

You'd think. At one point it said it couldn't connect to the map and
just shut down. When it came back it was strange. I had it plugged
into the charger all the time I was driving...

> There are also Android apps such as Here Maps

"Here We Go" with a blue W logo?" Downloading a few maps even as we
speak...

> which have an offline mode and
> require you to download a map of a whole country in advance, but that
> (AFAIK) *never* expires, even if its info becomes "stale" when a new road
> opens or an existing road is diverted. I use it a lot as a satnav in the UK
> because mobile reception can be patchy.

Onward and upward!


--
Cheers, Bev
"No matter how cynical I get, it's just never enough to keep up."
--Lily Tomlin

[nospam]

In article <s79fjd$cfq$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:

> There are also Android apps such as Here Maps which have an offline mode and
> require you to download a map of a whole country in advance, but that
> (AFAIK) *never* expires, even if its info becomes "stale" when a new road
> opens or an existing road is diverted. I use it a lot as a satnav in the UK
> because mobile reception can be patchy.

that's the best solution for those who do not have a data plan or are
in an area where there is no service.

[NY]

"The Real Bev" <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:s79h5h$66i$1...@dont-email.me...

> Another interesting factoid: the route chosen by my linux desktop was
> different from that chosen by the Pixel2 app. I liked the one from the
> computer better, so I went that way. The app kept trying to force me back
> to ITS preference rather than adjust. At one point it ran me up a steep
> hill and down the other side, demanded a left turn and then put me back on
> the street I was on before it took me up the hill.
>
> I can only attribute this to vindictiveness.

The satnav in our Honda (which uses Garmin) has a strange tendency to become
fixated with a route and tried to get me back onto it even when that is
longer (time and distance) than the route that we are actually taking.

A classic case is the route from the M69 to York. It wants to take me up the
M1. Fair enough except that I know this route will be slow because of a)
traffic, and b) those interminable stretches of roadworks where the subject
20 miles to a 50 limit but are only working on one small section.

So I take the A42/A1 route. It tries at every junction to get me back to the
M1. Fine to begin with. But eventually it becomes silly to backtrack to the
M1 or to take minor roads to head to an M1 junction further north. But we
have to go a long way on the A42 route - I think we got almost to Newark/A1
on one occasion - before it finally recalculates and notices that the A1
route is shorter/quicker. I've seen the ETA drop by 30-45 minutes once it
finally realises. That's being very stubborn - "I'll take you on the M1 if
it kills me" ;-)

You'd think that at every junction it will evaluate and rank the various
routes for the remaining bit of the journey.

[VanguardLH]

The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> No data plan.
>
> When I update them at home over wifi it says they're good for a year.
> BUT they seem to go haywire if you don't update within some much shorter
> period -- like a month. WTF?

https://www.androidauthority.com/google-maps-offline-android-637359/
"It’s also important to note these offline maps expire after about 15
days unless you connect to a data connection. The world changes pretty
much daily. Maps are dynamic and require updating. Google wants you to
have an updated version of your maps even when you’re offline, which is
the reason behind the time limit."

Did you configure the Maps app to automatically update (when you have a
wifi connection, like at home)? If you don't have a data plan, all you
have is auto-updating over wifi. The updates are via Internet, and you
need data or wifi for that.

Just what is "haywire"? Rather than guess what you meant to describe,
actually describe what happens. Maps have a 1-year expiration, but
Google wants to update them much sooner since roads, attractions,
locations, and other map data changes often. While you may get prompted
that an offline map is out of date, are you actually prevented from
viewing it? When you are travelling and have no wifi connection (and
because you have no data plan) which means no Internet access to update
the maps, does the Google Map not load an offline map to show you the
roads (about the only in offline maps)?

Where are you storing the maps? On internal memory (storage) or on an
SD card? Are you using any cleanup apps?

Google Maps lets you select a region to save. You zoom in/out to select
the region you want to save offline. The larger the region, the more
storage space gets consumed. Instead of selecting by some arbitrary
region, I save maps based on city, state, country, or continent using
the Here![WeGo] map app. Right now, I have all of North America
downloaded. Just as with offline maps in the Google Map, the offline
maps in Here! will be absent of stores, post offices, restaurants, and
other such data. Here! offline maps don't expire, but obviously the
longer a stored map then the more inaccurate it becomes.

> Especially annoying if you're trusting it to tell you about traffic in
> an intricate 20-mile route through Los Angeles/Beverly Hills on surface
> streets because that's just what you have to do and it takes you in a
> circle...

How could any app tell you about traffic conditions NOW when it is
offline? Are you using wifi from home when checking the app's maps?
That would only work when connected to a wifi hotspot, like at home with
a wifi cable modem. Wifi hotspots are not usable when moving, like
travelling in a car, since connection distance is too short, and you
would be disconnecting from a hotspot about as soon as you found one.
If you want to be using maps while moving, you need a data plan.

[The Real Bev]

On 05/09/2021 08:43 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No data plan.
>>
>> When I update them at home over wifi it says they're good for a year.
>> BUT they seem to go haywire if you don't update within some much shorter
>> period -- like a month. WTF?
>
> https://www.androidauthority.com/google-maps-offline-android-637359/
> "It’s also important to note these offline maps expire after about 15
> days unless you connect to a data connection. The world changes pretty
> much daily. Maps are dynamic and require updating. Google wants you to
> have an updated version of your maps even when you’re offline, which is
> the reason behind the time limit."
>
> Did you configure the Maps app to automatically update (when you have a
> wifi connection, like at home)? If you don't have a data plan, all you
> have is auto-updating over wifi. The updates are via Internet, and you
> need data or wifi for that.
>
> Just what is "haywire"? Rather than guess what you meant to describe,
> actually describe what happens.

One shot, 3 days ago. As I recall, it showed my current location
nowhere near where I actually was and seemed to have forgotten the
actual destination.

> Maps have a 1-year expiration, but
> Google wants to update them much sooner since roads, attractions,
> locations, and other map data changes often.

Then what is the value of the 1-year "expiration" and why was I not
warned that the map needed updating -- last time I updated seemed to be
March 22 -- at least the expiration date was March 22 2022. I just set
it to auto-update. I NEVER want to do that because things always seem
to update at inconvenient times. ALWAYS.

Is there any way to see the area that a given map covers? If 'help'
explains that, I must have missed it.

> While you may get prompted
> that an offline map is out of date, are you actually prevented from
> viewing it?

No prompt. Just "haywire".

> When you are travelling and have no wifi connection (and
> because you have no data plan) which means no Internet access to update
> the maps, does the Google Map not load an offline map to show you the
> roads (about the only in offline maps)?

It had previously loaded the map when I had a wifi connection. It gave
me correct instructions for a while. And then perhaps 5 miles later it
threw its apron over its head and started crying -- or GPS equivalent.

> Where are you storing the maps? On internal memory (storage) or on an
> SD card? Are you using any cleanup apps?

Pixel2 has no external card, so yes -- internal memory. No cleanup apps
-- I used to have one on a different phone but it was a piece of crap.

> Google Maps lets you select a region to save. You zoom in/out to select
> the region you want to save offline. The larger the region, the more
> storage space gets consumed. Instead of selecting by some arbitrary
> region, I save maps based on city, state, country, or continent using
> the Here![WeGo] map app.

I've got 4 maps. Not sure about the 'local' area, but it's certainly at
least 20 miles in diameter.

> Right now, I have all of North America
> downloaded. Just as with offline maps in the Google Map, the offline
> maps in Here! will be absent of stores, post offices, restaurants, and
> other such data.

For the most part I don't care about that, although I have wanted to
know where the closest Costco with a gas station is.

> Here! offline maps don't expire, but obviously the
> longer a stored map then the more inaccurate it becomes.
>
>> Especially annoying if you're trusting it to tell you about traffic in
>> an intricate 20-mile route through Los Angeles/Beverly Hills on surface
>> streets because that's just what you have to do and it takes you in a
>> circle...
>
> How could any app tell you about traffic conditions NOW when it is
> offline? Are you using wifi from home when checking the app's maps?

Of course.

> That would only work when connected to a wifi hotspot, like at home with
> a wifi cable modem. Wifi hotspots are not usable when moving, like
> travelling in a car, since connection distance is too short, and you
> would be disconnecting from a hotspot about as soon as you found one.
> If you want to be using maps while moving, you need a data plan.

Indeed. That's why I'm mystified about the traffic-avoidance message.

The area I ski at has free wifi, but the mountains get in the way
sometimes. While I'm skiing (yes, actually moving) I get the
'connected' tone every once in a while. I don't dig my phone out so I
have no idea what can actually be done while "connected", but it happens.

[VanguardLH]

The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> One shot, 3 days ago. As I recall, it showed my current location
> nowhere near where I actually was and seemed to have forgotten the
> actual destination.

Do you have any other apps that show your current location using GPS?
For example, I have the GPS Status app:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.eclipsim.gpsstatus2

Besides GPS data, it shows a compass (if your phone has a magnometer).
The app can't get connects to GPS satellites when I'm in my basement at
home, in parking garages, some places in hospitals, and other locations
where the GPS radio cannot penetrate beyond barriers to reach the
satellites. Usually the compass is not pointing north. To correct, I
do the 3D figure 8 trick: rotate the phone in a figure eight while also
rotating the in the other plane (you swing the phone in a figure eight
while rotating your wrist not only sideways, but also up and down, so
the phone rates through each of its 3 axes). That recalibrates the
compass, and often lets the app connect to GPS satellites (if the
connection was merely weak before, not if blocked since your phone is
still using a radio to connect to satellites).

If GPS location isn't working, especially if way off in computing where
you are, it could be due to corrupted or inaccurate A-GPS data (Assisted
GPS data) which is GPS from satellites augmented with positional info
from cell towers (for those that carry your cellular provider). A-GPS
make GPS computation faster and more accurate. Sometimes you have to
flush this locally cached data, but need an app that will do that. The
GPS Status, and other GPS apps, can reset (flush) the locally cached
A-GPS data, and recreate the table.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GNSS

A-GPS is needed because non-military users of GPS are not granted the
same accuracy as military users. A-GPS employs positional info from
cell towers to increase GPS accuracy, along with the rate of GPS
computations, especially if you are moving, like driving in a car. I
haven't bothered to research just why the locally A-GPS data gets
corrupted, invalid, or out of date or out of sync other than finding out
it can happen. You have to flush the data to rebuild it to get accurate
positional data again. Android does not come bundled with a GPS app
that will reset the A-GPS data, so you need to get a 3rd party app.

I have the ParKing app that records where I parked my car (by triggering
on a disconnect from Bluetooth in my car, like when I turn it off when
parking). However, I noticed that sometimes it was off by as far as I
could hurl a stone, or farther, but became accurate again after
resetting the A-GPS data. ParKing was recording the GPS location of my
car when it got parked, so if the data were off then so, too, was where
the app said I parked.

"Nowhere near where I was" doesn't say how far off was the location the
app showed for you. A block away, a city away, a state away, what?
Civilian usage of GPS satellites doesn't provide accuracy better than
within 10 to 33 feet.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/tech/2018/12/16/gps-satellite-accuracy/38749583/

That's why A-GPS is needed for more accurate positioning. Cell towers
know where they are, and can provide that positional info to smartphones
provided the smartphones are configured for high accuracy to use both
GPS and mobile location data. However, you might be out of range of any
cell tower (so you cannot make any calls), but GPS is still usable, but
without the assistance of A-GPS data for better accuracy. Newer
satellites will eventually provide more accurate positioning to within
3-10 feet for civilian use, but A-GPS and mobile triangulation, where
cell towers are available, are more accurate.

In the USA, its gov't claims 4 meter RMS (7.8 meter, 95% confidence)
accuracy for civilian use of the GPS satellites. Some places get 3
meter accuracy. However, bad A-GPS data can throw that way off, and why
you occasionally have to reset the locally cached A-GPS database. The
GPS Status app gives you a choice: reset the A-GPS data (flush it) for a
cold start and rebuild the database anew, or download A-GPS data from
the Internet (don't know where they get the data).

Just to check, is the GPS radio in your smartphone enabled? Some users
have no need for GPS-capable apps, so they disable the GPS radio (which
would otherwise always be on to connect to satellites and receive GPS
data) to save on battery power; i.e., they turn off GPS to have longer
battery run time. On my LG V20 phone:

Settings -> General -> Lock screen & security -> Location -> Mode
(navigation varies on different brands and models of smartphones)

There may be choices under there, like "Use GPS satellites" which, if
disabled, blocks use of GPS on your phone (the GPS radio turns off).
Mine doesn't have that, but on a battery saving mode that only uses wifi
and mobile networks for location (no GPS data, so no GPS radio).
Currently I have it set to high accuracy: GPS + mobile networks.

Also, do you even have Location turned on? Drag down to see the status
screen, and check if the Location icon is enabled. If disabled, no app
can use location data.

> Then what is the value of the 1-year "expiration" and why was I not
> warned that the map needed updating -- last time I updated seemed to be
> March 22 -- at least the expiration date was March 22 2022. I just set
> it to auto-update. I NEVER want to do that because things always seem
> to update at inconvenient times. ALWAYS.

If the auto-update option is disabled (which is what you implied) then
you won't get any automatic updating. Since there is no auto-update
check, how would the app know there was updated map data for the region
you specified for the offline map? You said not to auto-update, it
obeyed, so it didn't check thereafter, and you won't find out there are
updates until you manually update the offline maps.

Make sure the Maps app is configured to auto-update *only* over wifi
since you have no data plan.

It has been so long (many years) since I had no Internet connection on
my phone via wifi (only usable with stationary hotspots) or cellular
data service that I cannot recall the last time the Maps app had to
resort to using the offline map. I haven't had the need to test "what
if" scenarios that I haven't encountered. That also means I cannot
assure you that voice directions are available when using an offline
map. Back when I was setting all this up years ago, my recollection is
there were no voice prompts for real-time navigation when using an
offline map, but that might've changed since then. To me, it is more
dangerous having to peer at my phone to see when the next turn or other
navigational change will come up than listening for voice prompt telling
me how to navigate. I'd rather keep my eyes on the road than looking at
a smartphone (even a large one) or head unit in a car.

> Is there any way to see the area that a given map covers? If 'help'
> explains that, I must have missed it.

The map size was dictated by you when you zoomed in/out on a map to pick
the size of the offline map. There is a limit of max region size, but
it seems more dependent on how much data the offline map would need
rather than the diameter of the circle you draw. Alas, the Maps app
will not redisplay the area you selected before to show you how big it
is for its coverage. You get to delete the offline map, or update it.
If you delete the offline map and recreate it, you pick how big is the
selection. I usually pick the city that I will travel to, or visit
often, zoom out until the rectangle starts to reduce in size
representing the max region size has been selected, center the city in
the middle of the rectangle unless I bias its position because I'll be
travelling more in one direction than others, and download that map data
(and also rename the offline map to something memorable to me rather
than a datestamp).

The only way to see how big is the region of map data to save is when
you create the offline map. When you look at the list of offline maps
and pick one, there is a preview of the saved map, but it is so small
with so little detail with no labels that you only get a very rough idea
of the size of the offline map. I save large offline maps, so the
preview is too small to show any detail. Maybe if the region was much
smaller some details would show in the map preview.

> Of course [you are using wifi at home to see traffic conditions].

Then you won't be using the offline map, because the Maps app has an
Internet connection via wi-fi. Then when you leave from home and no
longer have the wifi connection, you are using the offline map, and you
cannot get any additional map data, like traffic volume, accidents, road
work, etc. You only have the offline map when travelling, and it is
devoid of all that extra map data you want.

>> That would only work when connected to a wifi hotspot, like at home with
>> a wifi cable modem. Wifi hotspots are not usable when moving, like
>> travelling in a car, since connection distance is too short, and you
>> would be disconnecting from a hotspot about as soon as you found one.
>> If you want to be using maps while moving, you need a data plan.
>
> Indeed. That's why I'm mystified about the traffic-avoidance message.

Google acquired Waze, and Waze had that feature. When you download an
offline map, maybe it has some traffic data, but it will be outdated the
moment you disconnect from your wifi home connect and go travelling.

> The area I ski at has free wifi, but the mountains get in the way
> sometimes. While I'm skiing (yes, actually moving) I get the
> 'connected' tone every once in a while. I don't dig my phone out so I
> have no idea what can actually be done while "connected", but it happens.

Wifi has a very short range, like 300 feet (100 meters) for 2.4GHz for
line-of-sight with no obstructions (150 feet indoors), and about a third
that range for the 5GHz band. Higher frequency affords faster
bandwidth, but is more susceptible to attenuation due to obstructions.
Lower speed and farther distance, or higher speed and less distance.
Even if your phone automatically reconnects to prior hotspots you
granted before (I want my phone prompting me instead of auto connects to
wifi hotspots), it takes time to negotiate a session, issue the data
upload (position, map request) and to send back the map data, and by
then you've already driven past the wifi hotspot. If you are stationary
within the hotspot range, yeah, your smartphone can use a wifi connect
to use the resort's Internet access.

It is possible the ski resort has multiple repeaters to increase wifi
coverage, and why you go in and out of range of wifi access. You cannot
continue a phone call via wifi across hotspots. When you move out of
range of a hotspot, the wifi connection breaks and you lose your
Internet-based call, and it will not get picked up when you get within
range of the next wifi hotspot. Cellular towers overlap their coverage
and allow for transition of phone calls across towers, but wifi won't do
that (there are exceptions, like wifi projects in the most dense part of
a city that attempt to transition Internet-based phone calls across
hotspots, but I don't remember the name of that project).

[Tony Mountifield]

In article <090520211459239530%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <s791ke$sbg$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev
> <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > When I update them at home over wifi it says they're good for a year.
> > BUT they seem to go haywire if you don't update within some much shorter
> > period -- like a month. WTF?
>
> they expire in 15 days, at the most:
>
> <https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838?hl=en>
> Offline maps that you downloaded on your phone or tablet need to be
> updated before they expire. When your offline maps expire in 15 days
> or less, Google Maps will try to update the area automatically when
> you're connected to Wi-Fi.

Nope, that's not what it says. It's clumsily worded, but it is saying that
it will automatically try to update on wifi WHEN the expiry date is less
than 15 days away. i.e. during the last 15 days of the 1 year period.

Cheers
Tony
--
Tony Mountifield
Work: to...@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: to...@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

[Tony Mountifield]

In article <s79h5h$66i$1...@dont-email.me>,

The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 05/09/2021 01:10 PM, NY wrote:
> > "nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:090520211459239530%nos...@nospam.invalid...
> >> In article <s791ke$sbg$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev
> >> <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> When I update them at home over wifi it says they're good for a year.
> >>> BUT they seem to go haywire if you don't update within some much shorter
> >>> period -- like a month. WTF?
> >>
> >> they expire in 15 days, at the most:
> >>
> >> <https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838?hl=en>
> >> Offline maps that you downloaded on your phone or tablet need to be
> >> updated before they expire. When your offline maps expire in 15 days
> >> or less, Google Maps will try to update the area automatically when
> >> you're connected to Wi-Fi.
>
> So why does it give a 1-year expiration date? Would Google actually LIE
> to us?

Nope, that's a misunderstanding of what is said. It actually means the maps
are good for 1 year, but 15 days before the 1 year is up, it will start trying
to update them automatically over wifi.

[paul]

VanguardLH wrote on 10.05.2021 08:23

> Do you have any other apps that show your current location using GPS?
> For example, I have the GPS Status app:
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.eclipsim.gpsstatus2

I've noticed in the past that many of the principal open source apps are
shamelessly copied by others who then add advertisements & purchases as an
added insult to injury.
https://play.google.com/store/search?q=satstat&c=apps

Given that long standing observation I wonder how those apps differ from
https://www.f-droid.org/en/packages/com.vonglasow.michael.satstat/

> Besides GPS data, it shows a compass (if your phone has a magnometer).

I don't see SatStat on Google Play but these are on Play & don't have ads.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.android.gpstest
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.pierwiastek.gpsdataplus

With caveats this one is supposedly "by Google" (or developed "with Google")
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.location.gps.gnsslogger

And this has inapp purchases so I wouldn't recommend it unless it's better
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.chartcross.gpstest

I only use SatStat but I would recommend others always compare with the
original source apps when those open source apps are shamelessly copied on
Google Play (some even add the insult of advertisements & at cost add ons).

[paul]

Tony Mountifield wrote on 10.05.2021 10:56

>> So why does it give a 1-year expiration date? Would Google actually LIE
>> to us?
>
> Nope, that's a misunderstanding of what is said. It actually means the maps
> are good for 1 year, but 15 days before the 1 year is up, it will start trying
> to update them automatically over wifi.

That makes much more sense given that in mature areas (which is most of the
USA nowadays) almost all of the roads are static (and have been for decades)
such that a yearly update could be considered too frequent for some people.

I always thought the 30-day monthly map cache time limit was too short.

Do they still have that monthly cache limit (or is that the year now too)?

[nospam]

In article <1rs0dyv5...@v.nguard.lh>, VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH>
wrote:

> If GPS location isn't working, especially if way off in computing where
> you are, it could be due to corrupted or inaccurate A-GPS data (Assisted
> GPS data) which is GPS from satellites augmented with positional info
> from cell towers (for those that carry your cellular provider). A-GPS
> make GPS computation faster and more accurate. Sometimes you have to
> flush this locally cached data, but need an app that will do that. The
> GPS Status, and other GPS apps, can reset (flush) the locally cached
> A-GPS data, and recreate the table.

there is no need to flush data, nor is a-gps data any different than
what's obtained directly from the gps satellites.

if it's stale, it's automatically replaced, by design.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GNSS
>
> A-GPS is needed because non-military users of GPS are not granted the
> same accuracy as military users.

false.

a-gps is needed so that the time to an initial fix is quick (seconds
versus several minutes) and everyone has had the same gps accuracy for
the past 21 years, ever since selective availability was disabled in
may, 2000.

> A-GPS employs positional info from
> cell towers to increase GPS accuracy, along with the rate of GPS
> computations, especially if you are moving, like driving in a car.

no it doesn't. it's simply to speed up the time for an initial fix.

> I haven't bothered to research just why the locally A-GPS data gets
> corrupted, invalid, or out of date or out of sync other than finding out
> it can happen. You have to flush the data to rebuild it to get accurate
> positional data again. Android does not come bundled with a GPS app
> that will reset the A-GPS data, so you need to get a 3rd party app.

there is no need to do so. if it's stale, it's replaced, either via
cell/wifi (a-gps) or directly from the gps satellites (non-a).

> I have the ParKing app that records where I parked my car (by triggering
> on a disconnect from Bluetooth in my car, like when I turn it off when
> parking). However, I noticed that sometimes it was off by as far as I
> could hurl a stone, or farther, but became accurate again after
> resetting the A-GPS data. ParKing was recording the GPS location of my
> car when it got parked, so if the data were off then so, too, was where
> the app said I parked.
>
> "Nowhere near where I was" doesn't say how far off was the location the
> app showed for you. A block away, a city away, a state away, what?
> Civilian usage of GPS satellites doesn't provide accuracy better than
> within 10 to 33 feet.

yes they can, depending on various factors.

> https://www.detroitnews.com/story/tech/2018/12/16/gps-satellite-accuracy/38749

> 583/

> That's why A-GPS is needed for more accurate positioning.

nope. that's not why.

a-gps simply speeds up the time to get an initial fix.

> Cell towers
> know where they are, and can provide that positional info to smartphones
> provided the smartphones are configured for high accuracy to use both
> GPS and mobile location data. However, you might be out of range of any
> cell tower (so you cannot make any calls), but GPS is still usable, but
> without the assistance of A-GPS data for better accuracy. Newer
> satellites will eventually provide more accurate positioning to within
> 3-10 feet for civilian use, but A-GPS and mobile triangulation, where
> cell towers are available, are more accurate.

cell towers can be used for a rough location, which in some cases is
sufficient (e.g., weather conditions), and avoid enabling the gps radio
to conserve battery.

a-gps has no effect on accuracy.

> In the USA, its gov't claims 4 meter RMS (7.8 meter, 95% confidence)
> accuracy for civilian use of the GPS satellites. Some places get 3
> meter accuracy. However, bad A-GPS data can throw that way off, and why
> you occasionally have to reset the locally cached A-GPS database.

nope. if it's stale, it's discarded.

> The
> GPS Status app gives you a choice: reset the A-GPS data (flush it) for a
> cold start and rebuild the database anew, or download A-GPS data from
> the Internet (don't know where they get the data).

they get it from the gps satellites.

> Just to check, is the GPS radio in your smartphone enabled? Some users
> have no need for GPS-capable apps, so they disable the GPS radio (which
> would otherwise always be on to connect to satellites and receive GPS
> data) to save on battery power; i.e., they turn off GPS to have longer
> battery run time. On my LG V20 phone:

apps can turn on gps as needed.

> >> That would only work when connected to a wifi hotspot, like at home with
> >> a wifi cable modem. Wifi hotspots are not usable when moving, like
> >> travelling in a car, since connection distance is too short, and you
> >> would be disconnecting from a hotspot about as soon as you found one.
> >> If you want to be using maps while moving, you need a data plan.
> >
> > Indeed. That's why I'm mystified about the traffic-avoidance message.
>
> Google acquired Waze, and Waze had that feature. When you download an
> offline map, maybe it has some traffic data, but it will be outdated the
> moment you disconnect from your wifi home connect and go travelling.

waze did not have that feature because such a feature makes no sense.

[NY]

"nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message

news:100520210611046091%nos...@nospam.invalid...

> a-gps is needed so that the time to an initial fix is quick (seconds
> versus several minutes) and everyone has had the same gps accuracy for
> the past 21 years, ever since selective availability was disabled in
> may, 2000.

Is it true that everyone has the same GPS accuracy? The best accuracy that
my phone reports is about 5 m (ie the location is somewhere within a circle
of radius 5 m), but I've heard of specialist devices used in surveying etc
which achieve accuracy to with a radius of less than 1 cm. Is that
differential GPS, where the extra precision comes by measuring the offset
from a fixed ground-based station whose location is known accurately.


A-GPS is great as a way of avoiding the long delay to update a stale
almanac/ephemeris - eg when first calling for a location fix after the
device has been moved since the last time GPS was on. I discovered something
interesting when I was on a cruise ship. I didn't have a data plan to use
the ship's wifi: you can connect but web and POP/SMTP access is blocked. But
they don't block the A-GPS traffic ;-) So my "GPS Status" app can still
download the almanac. In port (or near land) the mobile internet would
supply it, but I wasn't hopeful of it working over wifi when I wasn't
prepared to pay the extortionate fees for the very slow wifi (the wifi is
fast enough, but the backhaul by satellite is painfully, almost unusably
slow.




As regards Google Maps going out of date... I've just opened the Maps app,
clicked on the icon representing my Google account and then Offline Maps. It
lists various maps that I downloaded a couple of years ago, and they have
various expiry dates of the form "Expires 7 May 2022 unless updated". Given
today's date of 10 May 2021, that suggests that maps continuously update
every few days, so as always to give you 1 year of usage from the date of
last update. No mention of the 15 days. And if this shorter time is in fact
enforced, then it is *very* misleading quoting an expiry date of 1 year from
now.

[nospam]

In article <s7b7u6$9ra$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:

> Is it true that everyone has the same GPS accuracy?

if they all had the same device, yes, but they don't.

dedicated gps devices are generally more accurate than phones, for
example.

[NY]

"paul" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:s7atvj$iv5$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

> Tony Mountifield wrote on 10.05.2021 10:56
>
>>> So why does it give a 1-year expiration date? Would Google actually LIE
>>> to us?
>>
>> Nope, that's a misunderstanding of what is said. It actually means the
>> maps
>> are good for 1 year, but 15 days before the 1 year is up, it will start
>> trying
>> to update them automatically over wifi.
>
> That makes much more sense given that in mature areas (which is most of
> the
> USA nowadays) almost all of the roads are static (and have been for
> decades)
> such that a yearly update could be considered too frequent for some
> people.

It's a shame that satnav manufacturers' maps are updated so infrequently. A
new bypass road opened near where we used to live, but the satnav didn't
know about it. This wasn't a problem except that when my wife was coming
home from work, the display of ETA and distance to destination was wrong by
about 15 minutes or 10 miles, because it tried to take a completely
different route to avoid the town centre that the bypass bypassed. This was
about 2 years after the road had opened. Over the painfully slow ADSL (*)
that we had at that house, I downloaded the 4 GB Garmin map database - only
to find at the end that although the map I'd now got had a more recent
version number and fairly recent revision date, this road *still* hadn't
appeared (**). It finally made it 4 years after the road was opened, when I
did another update just before the expiry of the Garmin update subscription
that came with the car.

In contrast, the maps that Here Maps use, and the pictorial BMP overlay of
Ordnance Survey maps that Viewranger uses, were both updated (when I
manually downloaded them) within a very short time.


(*) About 200 kbps, compared with the 8 Mbps that ADSL is capable of in
ideal conditions - because the house was a long way from the exchange and
was too sparsely populated for VDSL (fibre to the cabinet) to be
costs-effective for BT Openreach to install. It was my parents' holiday
cottage where we were living for the 18 months between selling our old house
and finding and moving into a new one - so tolerable for a short time ;-)

(**) I tend to assume that if a revision date (eg a year before today's
date) is quoted, the database will include all roads known about at that
date. Not true :-(

[AJL]

paul wrote:
> Tony Mountifield wrote on 10.05.2021 10:56
>
>>> So why does it give a 1-year expiration date? Would Google
>>> actually LIE to us?
>>
>> Nope, that's a misunderstanding of what is said. It actually means
>> the maps are good for 1 year, but 15 days before the 1 year is up,
>> it will start trying to update them automatically over wifi.
>
> That makes much more sense given that in mature areas (which is most
> of the USA nowadays)

Amazon is now invading my area and the new employees need houses. So
there are many new housing developments (and roads) being built here.

> almost all of the roads are static (and have been for decades) such
> that a yearly update could be considered too frequent for some
> people.

A grandaughter bought one of those new houses recently (Yup, hubby works
for Amazon) and I went to see it about a month ago. Google showed
nothing but open fields but fortunately there was an iPhone in the car
and it took me right there.

I went back yesterday and the the Google map was now up to date. But
Street View still showed open dirt fields...

[The Real Bev]

On 05/10/2021 01:23 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> One shot, 3 days ago. As I recall, it showed my current location
>> nowhere near where I actually was and seemed to have forgotten the
>> actual destination.
>
> Do you have any other apps that show your current location using GPS?
> For example, I have the GPS Status app:

A number of them. My favorite .gpx-file-saving one is Ski Tracks. It
tries to force any trip into a ski-run matrix, but the .gpx file it
generates can be fed into google earth.

> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.eclipsim.gpsstatus2
>
> Besides GPS data, it shows a compass (if your phone has a magnometer).
> The app can't get connects to GPS satellites when I'm in my basement at
> home, in parking garages, some places in hospitals, and other locations
> where the GPS radio cannot penetrate beyond barriers to reach the
> satellites. Usually the compass is not pointing north.

Yeah I have that one. The not-north thing is annoying.

> To correct, I
> do the 3D figure 8 trick: rotate the phone in a figure eight while also
> rotating the in the other plane (you swing the phone in a figure eight
> while rotating your wrist not only sideways, but also up and down, so
> the phone rates through each of its 3 axes). That recalibrates the
> compass, and often lets the app connect to GPS satellites (if the
> connection was merely weak before, not if blocked since your phone is
> still using a radio to connect to satellites).

What, RF?

> If GPS location isn't working, especially if way off in computing where
> you are, it could be due to corrupted or inaccurate A-GPS data (Assisted
> GPS data) which is GPS from satellites augmented with positional info
> from cell towers (for those that carry your cellular provider). A-GPS
> make GPS computation faster and more accurate. Sometimes you have to
> flush this locally cached data, but need an app that will do that. The
> GPS Status, and other GPS apps, can reset (flush) the locally cached
> A-GPS data, and recreate the table.

In the recent situation, it guided me properly from home to destination.
After I told it to go home it behaved properly for perhaps five miles
and then lost its mind :-(

>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GNSS
>
> A-GPS is needed because non-military users of GPS are not granted the
> same accuracy as military users. A-GPS employs positional info from
> cell towers to increase GPS accuracy, along with the rate of GPS
> computations, especially if you are moving, like driving in a car. I
> haven't bothered to research just why the locally A-GPS data gets
> corrupted, invalid, or out of date or out of sync other than finding out
> it can happen. You have to flush the data to rebuild it to get accurate
> positional data again. Android does not come bundled with a GPS app
> that will reset the A-GPS data, so you need to get a 3rd party app.
>
> I have the ParKing app that records where I parked my car (by triggering
> on a disconnect from Bluetooth in my car, like when I turn it off when
> parking). However, I noticed that sometimes it was off by as far as I
> could hurl a stone, or farther, but became accurate again after
> resetting the A-GPS data. ParKing was recording the GPS location of my
> car when it got parked, so if the data were off then so, too, was where
> the app said I parked.

I thought that

>
> "Nowhere near where I was" doesn't say how far off was the location the
> app showed for you. A block away, a city away, a state away, what?

Miles.

> Civilian usage of GPS satellites doesn't provide accuracy better than
> within 10 to 33 feet.

When I worked at Magellan in 1990 SA was operating. You could buy two
units ($2K each) and somehow gang them together to get 2-foot accuracy.
I can't remember what the accuracy was supposed to be then when SA was
off.

The Pixel2 says it may use various sources of location info but doesn't
allow choices. I guess it knows what's best for me. Like my mom.

> Also, do you even have Location turned on? Drag down to see the status
> screen, and check if the Location icon is enabled. If disabled, no app
> can use location data.

I'm going to pretend that you didn't ask that :-) Granted, "Is it
plugged in?" is a common solution to problems, but still...

>> Then what is the value of the 1-year "expiration" and why was I not
>> warned that the map needed updating -- last time I updated seemed to be
>> March 22 -- at least the expiration date was March 22 2022. I just set
>> it to auto-update. I NEVER want to do that because things always seem
>> to update at inconvenient times. ALWAYS.
>
> If the auto-update option is disabled (which is what you implied) then

It was. I just enabled it. We'll see what happens now.

> you won't get any automatic updating. Since there is no auto-update
> check, how would the app know there was updated map data for the region
> you specified for the offline map?

It just said "auto-update", not "check for new maps". I'm generally
willing to check for new stuff, provided I can download it and install
it at MY convenience.

> You said not to auto-update, it
> obeyed, so it didn't check thereafter, and you won't find out there are
> updates until you manually update the offline maps.
>
> Make sure the Maps app is configured to auto-update *only* over wifi
> since you have no data plan.

Yes.

> It has been so long (many years) since I had no Internet connection on
> my phone via wifi (only usable with stationary hotspots) or cellular
> data service that I cannot recall the last time the Maps app had to
> resort to using the offline map.

I have a dirtbag $10/year T-Mobile plan which no longer exists. This
gives me ~30 new minutes/year and rolls over all unused minutes. Given
my rare phone usage this plan is perfect for me. Until they killed it,
I had a Freedompop SIM which gave me 20 MB/month of free data, which I
pretty much never needed to use. They've burned me three times so far.
Not going for a fourth.

> I haven't had the need to test "what
> if" scenarios that I haven't encountered. That also means I cannot
> assure you that voice directions are available when using an offline
> map. Back when I was setting all this up years ago, my recollection is
> there were no voice prompts for real-time navigation when using an
> offline map, but that might've changed since then.

Nope, there's voice direction. She used to say "Recalculating" in a
slightly petulant voice, but now she just gives a new instruction.

> To me, it is more
> dangerous having to peer at my phone to see when the next turn or other
> navigational change will come up than listening for voice prompt telling
> me how to navigate. I'd rather keep my eyes on the road than looking at
> a smartphone (even a large one) or head unit in a car.

We farsighted people rarely waste time looking at our phones without our
reading glasses. Even so, I need +3D to read most of the messages.
Astigmatism is a real bitch and sometimes CAN'T be corrected :-(

>> Is there any way to see the area that a given map covers? If 'help'
>> explains that, I must have missed it.
>
> The map size was dictated by you when you zoomed in/out on a map to pick
> the size of the offline map. There is a limit of max region size, but
> it seems more dependent on how much data the offline map would need
> rather than the diameter of the circle you draw. Alas, the Maps app
> will not redisplay the area you selected before to show you how big it
> is for its coverage.

That's what I had hoped for. Some people can remember what they did two
years ago, but I'm not one of them.

> You get to delete the offline map, or update it.
> If you delete the offline map and recreate it, you pick how big is the
> selection. I usually pick the city that I will travel to, or visit
> often, zoom out until the rectangle starts to reduce in size
> representing the max region size has been selected, center the city in
> the middle of the rectangle unless I bias its position because I'll be
> travelling more in one direction than others, and download that map data
> (and also rename the offline map to something memorable to me rather
> than a datestamp).

I could do that, but I'm reluctant to do so without KNOWING it it won't
also delete the addresses I've searched for. I really hate feeding in
addresses by thumb-typing.

> The only way to see how big is the region of map data to save is when
> you create the offline map.

BUT WAIT... Turn off wifi. Go to the list of offline maps. Click one,
and it shows the area it covers.

When you look at the list of offline maps
> and pick one, there is a preview of the saved map, but it is so small
> with so little detail with no labels that you only get a very rough idea
> of the size of the offline map.

Oh. Same thing, but the map shown was roughly 1.5" square. Good enough
to see the area covered.

> I save large offline maps, so the
> preview is too small to show any detail. Maybe if the region was much
> smaller some details would show in the map preview.

>> Of course [you are using wifi at home to see traffic conditions].
>
> Then you won't be using the offline map, because the Maps app has an
> Internet connection via wi-fi. Then when you leave from home and no
> longer have the wifi connection, you are using the offline map, and you
> cannot get any additional map data, like traffic volume, accidents, road
> work, etc. You only have the offline map when travelling, and it is
> devoid of all that extra map data you want.
>
>>> That would only work when connected to a wifi hotspot, like at home with
>>> a wifi cable modem. Wifi hotspots are not usable when moving, like
>>> travelling in a car, since connection distance is too short, and you
>>> would be disconnecting from a hotspot about as soon as you found one.
>>> If you want to be using maps while moving, you need a data plan.
>>
>> Indeed. That's why I'm mystified about the traffic-avoidance message.
>
> Google acquired Waze, and Waze had that feature. When you download an
> offline map, maybe it has some traffic data, but it will be outdated the
> moment you disconnect from your wifi home connect and go travelling.

The Garmin with lifetime traffic is very good about telling me about
traffic jams after I'm in one. It's done really weird stuff too, some
of it actually dangerous. Like telling me REPEATEDLY to make a left
turn off a mountain road. OFF a mountain road. It also told me to get
out of the diamond lane, cross three lanes of traffic to an off-ramp,
but then quickly go straight on the freeway I was already on.

Mostly I just want to know when an unfamiliar street/off-ramp is coming
up. I usually look at the route before I leave, sometimes making a list
of turns.

>> The area I ski at has free wifi, but the mountains get in the way
>> sometimes. While I'm skiing (yes, actually moving) I get the
>> 'connected' tone every once in a while. I don't dig my phone out so I
>> have no idea what can actually be done while "connected", but it happens.
>
> Wifi has a very short range, like 300 feet (100 meters) for 2.4GHz for
> line-of-sight with no obstructions (150 feet indoors), and about a third
> that range for the 5GHz band. Higher frequency affords faster
> bandwidth, but is more susceptible to attenuation due to obstructions.
> Lower speed and farther distance, or higher speed and less distance.
> Even if your phone automatically reconnects to prior hotspots you
> granted before (I want my phone prompting me instead of auto connects to
> wifi hotspots),

I tell it to autoconnect. Nuisance to have to jump through the hoops
each time.

> it takes time to negotiate a session, issue the data
> upload (position, map request) and to send back the map data, and by
> then you've already driven past the wifi hotspot. If you are stationary
> within the hotspot range, yeah, your smartphone can use a wifi connect
> to use the resort's Internet access.

Indeed. Still doesn't explain how I got the 'rerouting' message.

> It is possible the ski resort has multiple repeaters to increase wifi
> coverage, and why you go in and out of range of wifi access. You cannot
> continue a phone call via wifi across hotspots. When you move out of
> range of a hotspot, the wifi connection breaks and you lose your
> Internet-based call, and it will not get picked up when you get within
> range of the next wifi hotspot. Cellular towers overlap their coverage
> and allow for transition of phone calls across towers, but wifi won't do
> that (there are exceptions, like wifi projects in the most dense part of
> a city that attempt to transition Internet-based phone calls across
> hotspots, but I don't remember the name of that project).

--
Cheers,Bev
To define recursion, we must first define recursion.

[Ken Blake]

On 5/10/2021 10:10 AM, The Real Bev wrote:

> I have a dirtbag $10/year T-Mobile plan which no longer exists. This
> gives me ~30 new minutes/year and rolls over all unused minutes.

That's what I used to have and my wife still has. It no longer exists
for new customers, but it's grandfathered in for existing customers who
use it.

I now use a smart phone with very inexpensive service from Mint. I've
several times offered to get my wife a smart phone and smart phone data
service, but she always turns me down.


--
Ken

[Frank Slootweg]

Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com> wrote:
[...]

> I now use a smart phone with very inexpensive service from Mint. I've
> several times offered to get my wife a smart phone and smart phone data
> service, but she always turns me down.

So you don't only have a smartphone, but also a smartwife! :-)

But seriously, I got my wife a smartphone, about seven years after I
got my first. So there's hope - or dispair? :-) - for you yet!

[Frank Slootweg]

NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:
[...]

> Nowadays I tend to use Open Streetmaps more than Google Maps, and OSM *does*
> need online access. But that's because I prefer the level of detail on OSM
> that is missing on Google Maps.

You're probably aware of that, but just in case you're not:

There are several Android navigation apps which use OSM (Open
Streetmaps) maps in *offline* mode (with full detail).

I prefer OSMAnd+ [1] but there are several others. Just search the
Play Store or the Google Play website on 'OSM' or/and 'OpenStreetMap'.

We need detailed offline maps because - when things were/will_be
normal - we travel in rural/Outback/remote areas of Australia where
there is no mobile coverage and where we travel on back-roads/unsealed
roads, which often are not on the Google Maps maps.

Hope this helps.

[...]

[1] 'OsmAnd+ Offline Maps, Travel & Navigation'
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus>

Free version: Full functionality, but limited downloads:
'OsmAnd Offline Maps, Travel & Navigation'
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand>

[paul]

nospam wrote on 09.05.2021 23:04

> that's the best solution for those who do not have a data plan or are
> in an area where there is no service.

Below is a plan for accurate routing & timely traffic using little data
(and providing as much privacy and offline routing capability as possible).

Nowadays in the US the main carriers provide all you can eat service
(unlimited calls, texting, and data) but in the days when I had to limit my
data use I had a trick that works well while traveling by auto in the USA
(which also worked for when traveling in areas with spotty coverage).

Basic assumptions
1...You need traffic (usually from Google but you can get it elsewhere)
2...You need accurate address lookup (usually Google's is the best)
3...Once you have traffic & address lookup - you don't need Google routing
4...You also always want privacy (if possible)

The trick is to think about what you need that must come from the Internet.
A... Once you have accurate address lookup almost any routing map will do
B... Once you have accurate traffic lookup it usually doesn't change fast
(it could - but it usually doesn't - at least in your immediate area)

To get all four things using the least amount of data - a web page link to a
maps.google.com of your vicinity provides that with almost no data use.
1. You get real time traffic (which doesn't change all that quickly)
2. You get accurate address lookup (easily copied as GPS coordinates)
3. You get to use offline routing in almost any map (that accepts waypoints)
4. You get privacy in that Google only knows what the web page figured out

Before anyone goes bonkers on me for suggesting this method to limit both
the amount of data used and to limit what Google knows about your travel,
bear in mind this plan of attack was designed to limit data use to the
minimum and still get accurate address lookup & accurate real time traffic.

Nowadays with excellent coverage coupled with unlimited data plans using
this method of offline map routing with real time traffic and accurate
address lookup isn't as necessary anymore - because cellular coverage is
better than it was and your need to limit your data use has disappeared.

But it still provides more privacy than does using Google Maps fulltime
particularly becuase you don't need any account on the Google servers
(so they can't save directly your actions into an account of your name).

(I must add though that Google routing is the best of all - bar none.)

[VanguardLH]

The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm going to pretend that you didn't ask that [to check if Location
> was enabled].

It's software, so strange things happen sometimes. I turned on Airplane
mode when I was at the doctor's office, and then turned it off when
leaving. A few days later, I noticed the Location icon in the status
screen was greyed out. I had to tap it to reenable the Location
feature. Until I actually *checked*, I didn't know Location was off.

> What, RF [for GPS]?

Yep, you have 3 radios in your phone: cellular, wifi, and GPS.

> The Pixel2 says it may use various sources of location info but doesn't
> allow choices.

From searching online, one fix for GPS is to turn it off, wait 5
seconds, and turn it back on. Settings -> Location, toggle the Location
switch to disable GPS, wait 5 seconds, re-enable it.

I already mentioned resetting the locally cached A-GPS database.

> The Garmin with lifetime traffic is very good about telling me about
> traffic jams after I'm in one. It's done really weird stuff too, some
> of it actually dangerous. Like telling me REPEATEDLY to make a left
> turn off a mountain road. OFF a mountain road. It also told me to get
> out of the diamond lane, cross three lanes of traffic to an off-ramp,
> but then quickly go straight on the freeway I was already on.

I had Google Maps give me directions to a library. As I approached a
4-way intersection, it told me to turn left which I did. While making
the left turn, it told me to make a U-turn. So, why didn't it tell me
to take a right-turn in the first place. Directions from homw are
always screwed up despite I've reported the issue several times. Going
anywhere westward from home has Maps tell me to go south on a street,
turn to go a couple blocks west, hit a highway, and go north. Instead I
go north on that street, turn left to go westward, and catch the
highway. That lets me skip the stoplights at that intersection. Going
south hits the stoplight. Going north lets me make a right turn on red.
I've had Maps tell me a business was on one side of the road when in
fact it was many blocks further on the other side of the road.

The map apps are far from fallible. Worse are those that rely on
OpenStreets where users send updates ... any user. You get places and
roads reported by users. If there are no users in an area that are
willing to send periodic updates, an area gets stagnant with outdated
map data.

> Indeed. Still doesn't explain how I got the 'rerouting' message.

In the Maps app? I've had that happen when I use a different route than
what the app's directions say to use. I gave an example where the Maps
app told me to go south and west to get onto the highway, but I go north
and west so I can skip those stoplights with a right turn on red. Once
I start northward, the app does its auto-correct thing to recompute a
new routing path.

[The Real Bev]

Big difference between $10/year and $15/month for service I rarely need.
I can see her point about the plan, but not about the phone. Except
for its heavy battery usage, my little pocket computer/camera is perfect.

--
Cheers, Bev
"By the time they had diminished from 50 to 8, the other
dwarves began to suspect 'Hungry.'" -Gary Larson

[The Real Bev]

Hubby used my old one until son found the refurbished 64GB Pixel 2s for
$85 or so. He just uses it for the Kardia device, which is pretty slick
if you want to take a 30-second EKG every once in a while. He's got the
$10/year plan too, but I don't think he's ever made a call with it.

OTOH, he programs in assembly language, or at least he used to.

--
Cheers, Bev
"I don't think they could put him in a mental hospital.
On the other hand, if he were already in, I don't think
they'd let him out." -- Greek Geek

[The Real Bev]

On 05/10/2021 01:10 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm going to pretend that you didn't ask that [to check if Location
>> was enabled].
>

> The map apps are far from fallible. Worse are those that rely on
> OpenStreets where users send updates ... any user. You get places and
> roads reported by users. If there are no users in an area that are
> willing to send periodic updates, an area gets stagnant with outdated
> map data.
>
>> Indeed. Still doesn't explain how I got the 'rerouting' message.
>
> In the Maps app?

Google maps.

> I've had that happen when I use a different route than
> what the app's directions say to use.

It frequently wants me to take a circuitous route to get on the freeway,
although I LIVE on the street with the on-ramp 1/4 mile away.

> I gave an example where the Maps
> app told me to go south and west to get onto the highway, but I go north
> and west so I can skip those stoplights with a right turn on red. Once
> I start northward, the app does its auto-correct thing to recompute a
> new routing path.

Yes, but this time she said "rerouting due to traffic" which is a FALSE
lie unless the dataplanless phone received traffic information the same
way the Garmin with "lifetime traffic" does as long as it's plugged in
-- the cord is the antenna. Seems unlikely. Perhaps the wrong message
got triggered along with the other crap that was spewed (spewn?) out.

[VanguardLH]

Mint has their $15/month plan, but Mint will not rollover unused
minutes. Whatever you have left over at the end of the monthly data
cycle is lost. Talk and texting are unlimited, so no need for rollover
on those services; however, the 4GB data quota resets, so you cannot
store more data minutes from those you haven't used in a month.

Tello has their $10/month plan with unlimited talk and text, but has
only 1 GB data quota. Sufficient if your Internet traffic volume is
low, but eaten quickly if you love watching videos.

Tracfone has their $20/month plan which is also unlimited talk and text,
but only 2 GB/month for data quota; however, unused minutes rollover, so
you can accrue a lot of reserve data quota. I don't use much data in a
month. In the last several months, one month had 195 MB of data usage,
but typically data usage per month is around 20 MB. So, my unused data
quota keeps rolling over. That comes in handy when I take a vacation
and then have to rely on my phone for web surfing instead of using the
desktop PCs at work and home.

FreedomPop (now Red Pocket) is cheap ($10/month, 1000 minutes, unlimited
text, 1 GB data) provided you can manage to navigate their subscription
maze. The OP has already encountered problems using that provider.

I found a lost phone at a restaurant, and was going through its apps and
settings trying to find the owner (the owner didn't lock the phone, or
it was within the timeout before the phone locked). My lockscreen has
owner contact info, so anyone finding my lost phone could be nice and
contact me. Eventually I went through her contacts to find "Mom", and
called Mom. Her daughter just walked in the door and announced she lost
her phone. I told her the phone would be left with the manager, and I
told the manager that the owner was informed and on their way to
retrieve the phone (so the phone wouldn't mysteriously disappear). When
going through the data on her phone, she was paying $250/month. Ouch!
She's a realtor, and back then there were no unlimited minutes plans.

The OP pays $10/year. Yeah, I didn't believe it at first, either. Just
$10/year with quotas that more than satisfy the OP for her rare-time use
of your cell phone. $10, $15, or $20 per month comes nowhere close to
83 cents per month ($10 per year). I grin when those ads show up saying
"costs only N dollars per month", or per day. Well, sure, they could go
down to a per-second cost to make it look super cheap. No way to find a
similarly cheap cellular plan nowadays (*), and why the OP is hanging
onto that phone and grandfathered cheap plan; however, the downside is
that super-cheap plan doesn't include any data quota. Zip, nada, zilch.
That's why the OP is stuck having to using only wifi hotspots for
Internet access, and trying to get offline maps to work expecting them
to be as functional as the extra services offered with online maps.

(*) Unless you qualify for Lifeline cellular service (federally
mandated that all cellular carriers must provide although they may
present it under a different brand name). Even Verizon, her
provider, has a Lifeline service tier, but it isn't free unless
she qualifies as a low-income. Verizon's plan looks to be just a
discounted plan: it still costs money per month. Tracfone's
Safelink brand is free, but you need to qualify. However, just
because the OP wants to go super cheap on cellular services
doesn't mean she is low income. Not everyone wants to throw away
money on features or services they don't use or minimally
partially use (they want something commensurate to their usage).

The only reason why the OP pays anything at all is she still wants a
tiny bit of calling quota for emergency calls (but the examples she
gives are not really emergency calls, just critical or important calls).
There are [smart]phone users that don't pay anything other than the cost
of the phone. They rely solely on wifi hotspots at home or parasitic
consumption of someone else's Internet access via hotspot. They can
make phone calls via Internet and consume "data" quota by using the
Internet all of which are free over a wifi connection. The only access
those users have for calling and Internet is over wifi. No monthly or
even yearly plan to pay for. However, wifi hotspots are handy only for
stationary use. The OP can download or update her offline maps, but she
has discovered the problems inherit in offline use. Free or even super
cheap still has a cost: not in price, but in features, mobility, and
performance.

[The Real Bev]

On 05/10/2021 02:04 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

> FreedomPop (now Red Pocket) is cheap ($10/month, 1000 minutes, unlimited
> text, 1 GB data) provided you can manage to navigate their subscription
> maze. The OP has already encountered problems using that provider.

Freedompop advertises stuff as free forever, but then cancels their
SIMs. The last one charged me $17 to authorize the $1 SIM I bought at
Best Buy, which was wrong -- and which was canceled less than a year
later. They canceled a previous $1 plan, and they canceled the $20
hotspot which was most convenient of all. Each time was a real nuisance
to start and the last ones were a bitch to cancel. They claim they're
exempt because Red Pocket bought their 'free' business -- but when a
business buys another business they assume the liabilities as well as
the assets. Still, nobody is likely to sue over a $tiny amount$.

I regard them as cheaters and wouldn't have anything to do with either
Freedompop or Red Pocket ever again.

> I found a lost phone at a restaurant ... When

> going through the data on her phone, she was paying $250/month. Ouch!
> She's a realtor, and back then there were no unlimited minutes plans.

It's a business expense. Daughter the Tour Director (also a business
expense) doesn't pay that much, but she uses it several times an hour.
It hangs around her neck.

> The OP pays $10/year. Yeah, I didn't believe it at first, either. Just
> $10/year with quotas that more than satisfy the OP for her rare-time use
> of your cell phone. $10, $15, or $20 per month comes nowhere close to
> 83 cents per month ($10 per year). I grin when those ads show up saying
> "costs only N dollars per month", or per day. Well, sure, they could go
> down to a per-second cost to make it look super cheap. No way to find a
> similarly cheap cellular plan nowadays (*), and why the OP is hanging
> onto that phone and grandfathered cheap plan; however, the downside is
> that super-cheap plan doesn't include any data quota. Zip, nada, zilch.
> That's why the OP is stuck having to using only wifi hotspots for
> Internet access, and trying to get offline maps to work expecting them
> to be as functional as the extra services offered with online maps.

I don't expect extra services, just accuracy. Unsure where the fault
lies. The upside is that we got to see parts of Los Angeles we'd never
seen before.

> Free or even super
> cheap still has a cost: not in price, but in features, mobility, and
> performance.

Indeed. I used to fix my own car(s) too. It's all tradeoffs. Still,
"cheap" doesn't mean "It's legit to lie to me."

[Ken Blake]

On 5/10/2021 1:48 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 05/10/2021 10:37 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 5/10/2021 10:10 AM, The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>>> I have a dirtbag $10/year T-Mobile plan which no longer exists. This
>>> gives me ~30 new minutes/year and rolls over all unused minutes.
>>
>> That's what I used to have and my wife still has. It no longer exists
>> for new customers, but it's grandfathered in for existing customers who
>> use it.
>>
>> I now use a smart phone with very inexpensive service from Mint. I've
>> several times offered to get my wife a smart phone and smart phone data
>> service, but she always turns me down.
>
> Big difference between $10/year and $15/month

Yes, of course. But what I have is worth the $15 a month to me. It
wouldn't be to her.

> for service I rarely need.

I hardly ever use my phone for phone calls. I use it primarily for
e-mail when I travel, for google maps, for reading Kindle books, and
occasionally for a web search when I'm not home.

> I can see her point about the plan, but not about the phone. Except
> for its heavy battery usage, my little pocket computer/camera is perfect.

Her little pocket phone is never kept in a pocket. She keeps it her
handbag and almost never turns it on. It has no camera, but if it did,
she would never use it.


--
Ken

[Ken Blake]

On 5/10/2021 2:04 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>

>> I now use a smart phone with very inexpensive service from Mint. I've
>> several times offered to get my wife a smart phone and smart phone data
>> service, but she always turns me down.
>
> Mint has their $15/month plan, but Mint will not rollover unused
> minutes.

Right, but I've never needed it. What I get for $15 is more than enough
for any month.

> Whatever you have left over at the end of the monthly data
> cycle is lost. Talk and texting are unlimited, so no need for rollover
> on those services

Yes, but I hardly ever use those services.



--
Ken

[The Real Bev]

It would be nice if some *reputable* company would just sell a
refillable chunk of data that would last forever, or at least as long as
the company.

--
Cheers, Bev
"I would be most content if my children grew up to be the
kind of people who think decorating consists mostly of
building enough bookshelves." -- Anna Quindlen

[VanguardLH]

The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It would be nice if some *reputable* company would just sell a
> refillable chunk of data that would last forever, or at least as long
> as the company.

But you'd need a SIM card to access that data provider. Since you want
to keep using the Verizon grandfathered service while adding another
cellular data provider, you'll need a dual-SIM smartphone to access
multiple providers on the same phone: one slot for Verizon SIM, and
another slot for the data-only SIM.

https://bestmvno.com/compare/data-only-plans/

If I needed that setup, I'd check which ones didn't require a renewing
contract (aka subscription). I could then add quota only for the months
when I needed cellular data service. However, the cost of a dual-SIM
phone would outweigh the data-only cost savings for many months if not
for years. Or you could get a 2nd smartphone and use the data-only SIM
in that phone.

[Kees Nuyt]

On Mon, 10 May 2021 15:10:48 -0500, VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH>
wrote:

> Yep, you have 3 radios in your phone: cellular, wifi, and GPS.

Being pedantic, I would say 4:
- cellular (transmit/receive)
- wifi (transmit/receive)
- bluetooth (transmit/receive)
- GPS (receive-only)

--
Kees Nuyt

[VanguardLH]

The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, but this time she said "rerouting due to traffic" which is a
> FALSE lie unless the dataplanless phone received traffic information
> the same way the Garmin with "lifetime traffic" does as long as it's
> plugged in -- the cord is the antenna. Seems unlikely. Perhaps the
> wrong message got triggered along with the other crap that was spewed
> (spewn?) out.

Never had the Google Maps app announce "rerouting due to traffic", just
say "rerouting". Don't remember it telling me the cause for the
rerouting, but then I'm the driver and more focused on my primary job as
the driver, not a smartphone fiddler.

I had a buddy using his phone when were in Florida to get navigation
from airport to resort. He kept telling me to turn this way, and that
way, and yet it never directed us to the highway. We drove alongside
the highway, and even took roads that went under the highway to take
roads on the other side that followed the highway. Eventually, and
despite what his phone was telling him, I could see a ramp going up to
the highway, and took it. When we got to the resort, he was looking at
the config for Maps, and discovered he had it set to avoid tolls. Well,
Florida is full of toll roads, and the highway from the airport to the
resort is a toll road for about two-thirds the distance. I didn't care
about paying the tolls. Back then, I packed a couple rolls of quarters
to pay the expected tolls, and now I pay for the transponder rental to
do it automatically (no stopping at the booths, just drive through the
special lanes).

I don't see any choices in the Maps app to select shortest distance.
Instead it defaults and only allows "Fastest route, the usual traffic".
There are transport mode choices which would affect which route the app
selects as best: car, bus, walking, biking. Whatever route is
pre-selected, I can choose one of the alternate routes. There is no
choice for "shortest route", just the "fastest route". Getting there
quickly is the goal for the app. Since you don't have data service on
your phone, you cannot use the app with data on and retest with data off
to see what difference in routing the app would suggest based on current
map data versus stored and outdated map data.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/google-maps-update-fastest-route/

Presumably the "route with the lowest carbon footprint" would be the
shortest route, but not if that has you idling away in rush-hour traffic
to waste gas going nowhere while stuck in traffic. So, there is still
not an option for "shortest route" regardless of traffic volume, road
construction, accidents, or other factors that impact time to target.
However, from my use of the Maps app, there would have to major road
construction, like a highway closure during construction, to have the
Maps app suggest a different route than the normally shortest one.

Did you update or re-download the offline map just before you left to
use the Maps app? Else, old offline map data could have info about
traffic jams or road construction that no longer applies.

The map apps are better than driving blind (not with closed eyes, but
with no knowledge of the roads and conditions), better than using the
old map books (that had you pull over to flip through pages and read
them), but they aren't perfect, and using offline map data seems to
compound their failings. Since this mapping is only used when you're
driving around, seems you could get a contract-less plan with a
data-only SIM card for the month when you need routing assistance, and
leave that phone in your car, or stow in your carry-on luggage when you
fly top the destination.

[The Real Bev]

On 05/10/2021 09:01 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It would be nice if some *reputable* company would just sell a
>> refillable chunk of data that would last forever, or at least as long
>> as the company.
>
> But you'd need a SIM card to access that data provider. Since you want
> to keep using the Verizon grandfathered service while adding another
> cellular data provider, you'll need a dual-SIM smartphone to access
> multiple providers on the same phone: one slot for Verizon SIM, and
> another slot for the data-only SIM.

OR use your previous phone. Hey, my purse already weighs 5.2 pounds,
what's one more smartphone?

> https://bestmvno.com/compare/data-only-plans/
>
> If I needed that setup, I'd check which ones didn't require a renewing
> contract (aka subscription). I could then add quota only for the months
> when I needed cellular data service.

There didn't seem to be any non-monthly/yearly options. I emailed them.
It seems like a GOOD business opportunity. They get a chunk of money
up front for services that might never be used. Like gift cards that
people forget they have. Win-win!

> However, the cost of a dual-SIM
> phone would outweigh the data-only cost savings for many months if not
> for years. Or you could get a 2nd smartphone and use the data-only SIM
> in that phone.

Yes. I was reading about dual-SIM phones -- many lie and call the
sdcard slot a second SIM slot. Hmph.



--
Cheers, Bev
"Don't bother looking for that key. There is no Esc."
-- M. Tabnik

[nospam]

In article <441k9g5ovoabftt8l...@dim53.demon.nl>, Kees

Nuyt <k.n...@nospam.demon.nl> wrote:

> > Yep, you have 3 radios in your phone: cellular, wifi, and GPS.
>
> Being pedantic, I would say 4:
> - cellular (transmit/receive)
> - wifi (transmit/receive)
> - bluetooth (transmit/receive)
> - GPS (receive-only)

being pedantic, cellular can have several radios to support the various
air interfaces, including for 2g, 3g, 4g/lte, 5g (low, mid, mmw) and
cdma depending on phone and what it supports.

wifi can have 2.4 ghz, 5 ghz and 6 ghz radios.

some phones have ultrawideband.

a few have an fm radio (although it doesn't work very well).

[nospam]

In article <s7d1kc$tim$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev

<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There didn't seem to be any non-monthly/yearly options. I emailed them.
> It seems like a GOOD business opportunity. They get a chunk of money
> up front for services that might never be used. Like gift cards that
> people forget they have. Win-win!

if it was a good business opportunity, someone would be offering it.

if it was a really good business opportunity, several companies would
be offering it.

it's not.

[VanguardLH]

Kees Nuyt <k.n...@nospam.demon.nl> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>> Yep, you have 3 radios in your phone: cellular, wifi, and GPS.
>
> Being pedantic, I would say 4:
> - cellular (transmit/receive)
> - wifi (transmit/receive)
> - bluetooth (transmit/receive)
> - GPS (receive-only)

Oops, forgot about BT.

[The Real Bev]

On 05/10/2021 09:34 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
...

> Since this mapping is only used when you're
> driving around, seems you could get a contract-less plan with a
> data-only SIM card for the month when you need routing assistance, and
> leave that phone in your car, or stow in your carry-on luggage when you
> fly top the destination.

This implies predictability. The only times I've actually needed data
when I wasn't near a hotspot was driving from LA to Houston and looking
for the cheapest gas stations (always Pilot, just need to know where --
the point was to drive straight through with the fewest stops) and when
I was looking for a business on "State Street" which was actually
located on a DIFFERENT "State Street". This is since 2017. The gas
station thing could have been done using the wifi at the Pilot station I
was actually at, and I guess I could have PHONED the business to ask
where the hell they were.

Some of us just don't need the capabilities that others find essential.
Is the convenience worth $100/year? No. but I might be willing to pay
$100 for a few TB of eternal data that I might never use.

--
Cheers, Bev
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

[Piet]

VanguardLH wrote:
> Kees Nuyt wrote:

>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>> Yep, you have 3 radios in your phone: cellular, wifi, and GPS.
>>
>> Being pedantic, I would say 4:
>> - cellular (transmit/receive)
>> - wifi (transmit/receive)
>> - bluetooth (transmit/receive)
>> - GPS (receive-only)
>
> Oops, forgot about BT.

And NFC.
And wireless charging.

It all depends on how you define "radio".

-p

[NY]

"Piet" <www.godfatherof.nl/@opt-in.invalid> wrote in message
news:s7di8r$1bqg$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

I'd say that a radio has to receive a signal, and wireless charging is
effectively an induction coil receiving energy (but no signal) via a
magnetic field generated by a corresponding coil in the charger.

NFC is a radio signal, although is it effectively a dialect of Bluetooth?
Does NFC detect nearby devices if Bluetooth is turned off?

[nospam]

In article <s7drf4$ssg$1...@dont-email.me>, NY <m...@privacy.invalid> wrote:

> NFC is a radio signal, although is it effectively a dialect of Bluetooth?

no

> Does NFC detect nearby devices if Bluetooth is turned off?

yes

[Frank Slootweg]

The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

[About her son:]

> OTOH, he programs in assembly language, or at least he used to.

Doesn't everybody!? Or at least C. High(er) level languages are for
wimps! :-)

[Ken Blake]

On 5/10/2021 7:58 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 05/10/2021 02:56 PM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> On 5/10/2021 2:04 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>>> Ken Blake <k...@invalidemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> I now use a smart phone with very inexpensive service from Mint. I've
>>>> several times offered to get my wife a smart phone and smart phone data
>>>> service, but she always turns me down.
>>>
>>> Mint has their $15/month plan, but Mint will not rollover unused
>>> minutes.
>>
>> Right, but I've never needed it. What I get for $15 is more than enough
>> for any month.
>>
>>> Whatever you have left over at the end of the monthly data
>>> cycle is lost. Talk and texting are unlimited, so no need for rollover
>>> on those services
>>
>> Yes, but I hardly ever use those services.
>
> It would be nice if some *reputable* company would just sell a
> refillable chunk of data that would last forever, or at least as long as
> the company.

I agree, but don't hold your breath.


--
Ken

[The Real Bev]

On 05/11/2021 06:33 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [About her son:]

Husband. Son started assembly when he was maybe 12.

>> OTOH, he programs in assembly language, or at least he used to.
>
> Doesn't everybody!? Or at least C. High(er) level languages are for
> wimps! :-)

Well, hubby started with FORTRAN on cards... Didn't everybody? Even
*I* wrote some shit in FORTRAN, but I hated every minute. I am NOT a
programmer.

--
Cheers, Bev
Giving advice likely to kill the stupid is called passive eugenics.

[Frank Slootweg]

The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]

> It would be nice if some *reputable* company would just sell a
> refillable chunk of data that would last forever, or at least as long as
> the company.

Not that it helps you guys and gals one bit, but in Europe - and
probably most of the (non-US) rest of the world - there's no such
problem.

For example my 'refillable chunk of data' does last 'forever' when I
use at least one (Euro) cent per 6 months. Not a bad deal IMO.

It's so strange that often things in the US seem to be different just
for the sake of being different. (Yes, of course the MVNO can't survive
on my non-use, but other paying customers allow them to provide these
features/rates.)

[VanguardLH]

Never had a smartphone with NFC. Don't want it. If I got a smartphone
based on other features that happen to include NFC, I'd turn it off.
NFC is rooted in RFID, so someone that can read the chip on your
unshielded smart card can connect to your NFC-enabled phone. If I just
must use NFC, I'd default to it disabled, and enable temporarily using
the drop-down status screen, and then disable it immediately afterward.
NFC has always had hacking vulnerabilities. NFC range is only a few
centimeters, but anyone can push against you with your phone in your
pocket or belt holster. Forgot about that one, too.

Wireless charging uses inductance between coils, and is NOT a radio.
You carrying around a magnetic doesn't make it an RF device. It's not
how I define RF. It's the definition of inductance and RF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_frequency

Both involve electromagnetic energy, but RF does not encompass all
electromagnetism. Wireless charging employs a fluctuating
electromagnetic field in one coil to induce current in another coil.

Your mention of NFC as another radio in a smartphone was a home run.
Your mention of wireless charging as a radio was a foul hit.

As for the OP's Pixel2 phone, it has NFC but no wireless charging.

Oh, and in addition, another radio I forget is for FM. The chipset
likely supported FM, but it was turned off in the chipset. Wireless
carriers urged the phone makers to disable the FM function, because it
would impinge on their streaming music revenue while reducing the
consumption of cellular data service. They wanted to be the source of
music while also getting non-unlimited consumers to eat up their data
quota and have to buy more. The phone makers just had to un-disable the
FM function in the chipset. Obviously it is receive-only. I think you
also had to plug in earbuds or wired speakers to use the wiring as the
antenna. Some newer smartphones don't have a chipset with the FM
function, so no way to enable FM. Some older phones didn't connect the
chip to the needed circuitry, like a connector to whatever is the
antenna, so enabling FM in the chip didn't add FM support. But for some
smartphones, FM is an option.

[VanguardLH]

Capitalism and greed reign supreme in the USA.

[VanguardLH]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:

> Oh, and in addition, another radio I forget is for FM. ...

I just check the specifications for my LG V20 phone. It has FM support.
Oooh, something more to play with. When I try the FM app, I'm told to
plug in some earbuds. I'll have to hunt around to see if I have a pair,
and then test the FM radio app.

[VanguardLH]

Nah. Assembly is a low-level programming language, and is "for wimps!"
Code in machine language. No assembler needed to convert into machine
code. There is no JMP in the CPU's instruction set. JMP, in Assembly,
changes the instruction pointer register. JMP executes more than one
machine instruction. Get intimate with the hardware, and directly code
binaries for the instruction set of that hardware. Then enjoy recoding
for another supported platform, and managing the code branches for each
version of the product along with sub-branches for each platform.

Nope, I no longer have my Altair where I toggled switches, loaded an
instruction into memory, and repeated for every instruction. I really
miss that meticulous and tedious fun ... NOT!

[The Real Bev]

On 05/11/2021 03:57 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>
>> The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> [About her son:]
>>
>>> OTOH, he programs in assembly language, or at least he used to.
>>
>> Doesn't everybody!? Or at least C. High(er) level languages are for
>> wimps! :-)
>
> Nah. Assembly is a low-level programming language, and is "for wimps!"

Hah.

> Code in machine language.

He did that when he had to.

> No assembler needed to convert into machine
> code. There is no JMP in the CPU's instruction set. JMP, in Assembly,
> changes the instruction pointer register. JMP executes more than one
> machine instruction. Get intimate with the hardware, and directly code
> binaries for the instruction set of that hardware. Then enjoy recoding
> for another supported platform, and managing the code branches for each
> version of the product along with sub-branches for each platform.
>
> Nope, I no longer have my Altair where I toggled switches, loaded an
> instruction into memory, and repeated for every instruction. I really
> miss that meticulous and tedious fun ... NOT!

We almost bought one of those, but the Byte Shop kept selling the one it
was building for us to someone else -- for a couple of months. Finally
my husband threatened to throw a chair through their plate glass window
if we didn't get a refund check immediately. We went directly to the
bank to cash it.

We bought a machine from a local builder called Computer Power and Light
which took paper tape or an audio cassette. He wrote his own BIOS and
would wake me up in the middle of the night to brag that he'd just
eliminated four bytes.

--
Cheers, Bev
"If your mechanic claims that he stands behind his brake jobs, keep
looking. You want to find one willing to stand in front of them."

-- B. Ward

[The Real Bev]

On 05/09/2021 01:37 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 05/09/2021 01:10 PM, NY wrote:
>> "nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:090520211459239530%nos...@nospam.invalid...

>>>> Especially annoying if you're trusting it to tell you about traffic in
>>>> an intricate 20-mile route through Los Angeles/Beverly Hills on surface
>>>> streets because that's just what you have to do and it takes you in a
>>>> circle...
>>>
>>> traffic can change at any time and requires a data plan for real-time
>>> information.

Today I set a route to a local Ikea while I had wifi. We didn't like
that route, so took a different one. The Nice Lady demanded that I make
a U-turn in various ways for perhaps 5 miles before SILENTLY rerouting
us the way we wanted to go. She tried WAY too hard to bend us to her
will...

After we'd been on the freeway for perhaps ten minutes she tossed up a
text message that there was a 15-minute delay due to construction. If
she had known about that while I was originally setting the route she
didn't mention it, just that HER route was faster [amount unknown]
because of traffic.

The FM radio app requires wifi. so it's clearly not that. I suppose
it's conceivable that she acquired vast amounts of traffic info while I
was connected, but it would have to have involved traffic in a 20-mile x
20-mile area dumped to the phone. I have no route preferences set,
although I would always choose as much freeway as possible if I could.

Still mystified.

--
Cheers, Bev
"The fact that windows is one of the most popular ways to
operate a computer means that evolution has made a general
fuckup and our race is doomed." -- Anon.

[AJL]

On 5/11/2021 9:14 PM, The Real Bev wrote:

> Today I set a route to a local Ikea while I had wifi. We didn't like
> that route, so took a different one. The Nice Lady demanded that I
> make a U-turn in various ways for perhaps 5 miles before SILENTLY
> rerouting us the way we wanted to go. She tried WAY too hard to bend
> us to her will...

Some years ago she told me how to go but I knew better. I found the
freeway closed and had to backtrack 20 miles and go her way after all. I
swear she was snickering all the way back...

[VanguardLH]

The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Nope, I no longer have my Altair where I toggled switches, loaded an
>> instruction into memory, and repeated for every instruction. I really
>> miss that meticulous and tedious fun ... NOT!
>
> We almost bought one of those, but the Byte Shop kept selling the one it
> was building for us to someone else -- for a couple of months.

I bought mine for a $100 less as a kit.

[Frank Slootweg]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.lh> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>
> > The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > [About her son:]
> >
> >> OTOH, he programs in assembly language, or at least he used to.
> >
> > Doesn't everybody!? Or at least C. High(er) level languages are for
> > wimps! :-)
>
> Nah. Assembly is a low-level programming language, and is "for wimps!"
> Code in machine language. No assembler needed to convert into machine
> code. There is no JMP in the CPU's instruction set. JMP, in Assembly,
> changes the instruction pointer register. JMP executes more than one
> machine instruction. Get intimate with the hardware, and directly code
> binaries for the instruction set of that hardware. Then enjoy recoding
> for another supported platform, and managing the code branches for each
> version of the product along with sub-branches for each platform.

Yep, I used to program extra instructions in a microprogrammable
computer (HP 2100A), so I had to be *very* intimate with the hardware.

> Nope, I no longer have my Altair where I toggled switches, loaded an
> instruction into memory, and repeated for every instruction. I really
> miss that meticulous and tedious fun ... NOT!

Did that already in 1969 or so (obviously not on a Altair or anything
like that). Needed to toggle some 10 (16-bit) instructions, just enough
to read the 64-instruction bootloader (BBL, Basic Binary Loader) from
papertape. 64 instructions was enough for not only a papertape
bootloader, but also for a disk (disc at the time) bootloader (BBDL/
BMDL). Later, I changed it into a multi-boot (disc) loader. Memory was a
whopping 64KB max and disc anywhere from some 350 KB to some 5 MB. Cost
only a hundred K$ plus, a bargain.

[Dean Hoffman]

On 5/11/2021 6:46:38 AM, nospam wrote:

> cellular can have several radios to support the various
> air interfaces, including for 2g, 3g, 4g/lte, 5g (low, mid, mmw) and
> cdma depending on phone and what it supports.

My phone has a normally hidden option that shows all the bands supported.
There's a checkbox next to each which allows you to select that one band.

I didn't mess with that checkbox.

What does it do?
Does it turn off that band of the cellular radios?

>
> wifi can have 2.4 ghz, 5 ghz and 6 ghz radios.
> some phones have ultrawideband.

That makes me wonder a similar question.
If you don't have anything set up on those bands do the radios still emit?

>
> a few have an fm radio (although it doesn't work very well).

Only a few?
There are over a hundred Android phones released in 2020/2021 with FM radio.

Huawei
Honor 7A
Honor 7C
Honor 7s
Honor 8X Max
Honor 9N
Honor Note 10
Huawei Mate 20
Huawei Mate 20 Lite
Huawei Mate RS Porsche Design
Huawei P Smart +
Huawei P20 Lite
Huawei Y3 (2018)
Huawei Y5 (2018)
Huawei Y6 (2018)
Huawei Y7, Y7 Prime and Y7 Pro (2018)
Huawei Y9 (2018)

LG
LG Candy
LG G7 Fit
LG G7 One
LG G7 ThinQ
LG G8 ThinQ
LG K10 (2018)
LG K11 Plus
LG K8 (2018)
LG Q Stylus
LG Q7
LG Q8
LG V30S ThinQ
LG V35 ThinQ
LG V40 ThinQ

Meizu
Meizu M6s
Meizu M6T
Meizu M8c

Motorola
Moto G7
Moto G7 Play
Moto G7 Plus
Moto G7 Power
Motorola Moto E5
Motorola Moto E5 Play
Motorola Moto E5 Plus
Motorola Moto G6
Motorola Moto G6 Play
Motorola Moto G6 Plus
Motorola Moto Z3
Motorola Moto Z3 Play
Motorola One and One Power
Motorola P30

Nokia
Nokia 1
Nokia 1 Plus
Nokia 2.1
Nokia 3.1 and 3.1 Plus
Nokia 3.1 Plus
Nokia 3.2
Nokia 3310 4G
Nokia 4.2
Nokia 5.1 and 5.1 Plus
Nokia 6.1 and 6.1 Plus
Nokia 8110 4G

OPPO
Oppo A71 (2018)
Oppo A1
Oppo A3 and A3s
Oppo A5
Oppo F7
Oppo F7 Youth
Oppo F9
Oppo A7x

Samsung
Samsung Galaxy A10
Samsung Galaxy A20e
Samsung Galaxy A30
Samsung Galaxy A40
Samsung Galaxy A50
Samsung Galaxy A6 and A6 + (2018)
Samsung Galaxy A7 (2018)
Samsung Galaxy A70
Samsung Galaxy A8 and A8 +
Samsung Galaxy A80
Samsung Galaxy A9 (2018)
Samsung Galaxy J2 Core
Samsung Galaxy J2 Pro (2018)
Samsung Galaxy J3 (2018)
Samsung Galaxy J4
Samsung Galaxy J4 +
Samsung Galaxy J6 and J6 +
Samsung Galaxy J7 (2018)
Samsung Galaxy J7 Duo
Samsung Galaxy J7 Prime 2
Samsung Galaxy J8
Samsung Galaxy M20

Sony
Sony Xperia 10
Sony Xperia 10 Plus
Sony Xperia L2
Sony Xperia L3
Sony Xperia XA2 and XA2 Plus
Sony Xperia XA2 Ultra

Xiaomi
Xiaomi Pocophone F1
Xiaomi Redmi 6
Xiaomi Redmi 6A
Xiaomi Redmi 7
Xiaomi Redmi go
Xiaomi Redmi Note 5
Xiaomi Redmi Note 5 Pro
Xiaomi Redmi Note 6 Pro
Xiaomi Redmi Note 7
Xiaomi Redmi S2

[nospam]

In article <s7hh69$780$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Dean Hoffman

<deanh...@clod.com> wrote:

> > cellular can have several radios to support the various
> > air interfaces, including for 2g, 3g, 4g/lte, 5g (low, mid, mmw) and
> > cdma depending on phone and what it supports.
>
> My phone has a normally hidden option that shows all the bands supported.
> There's a checkbox next to each which allows you to select that one band.
>
> I didn't mess with that checkbox.
>
> What does it do?
> Does it turn off that band of the cellular radios?

that sounds like a test mode setting. don't fuck with it.

> > wifi can have 2.4 ghz, 5 ghz and 6 ghz radios.
> > some phones have ultrawideband.
>
> That makes me wonder a similar question.
> If you don't have anything set up on those bands do the radios still emit?

yes, because it's always possible that you may move to a location where
there will be traffic on a different band.

> > a few have an fm radio (although it doesn't work very well).
>
> Only a few?
> There are over a hundred Android phones released in 2020/2021 with FM radio.

not that shit again.

very few of those phones sell in appreciable numbers, and of the few
that do, almost nobody actually uses the fm radio because it doesn't
work particularly well. one person in this thread didn't even know he
had it.

a *much* wider variety of content is available via streaming, and
without annoying commercials. some podcasts contain ads but it's easy
to skip over them.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 10/05/2021 00.39, NY wrote:
> "The Real Bev" <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:s79h5h$66i$1...@dont-email.me...
>> Another interesting factoid:  the route chosen by my linux desktop was
>> different from that chosen by the Pixel2 app.  I liked the one from
>> the computer better, so I went that way.  The app kept trying to force
>> me back to ITS preference rather than adjust.  At one point it ran me
>> up a steep hill and down the other side, demanded a left turn and then
>> put me back on the street I was on before it took me up the hill.
>>
>> I can only attribute this to vindictiveness.
>
> The satnav in our Honda (which uses Garmin) has a strange tendency to
> become fixated with a route and tried to get me back onto it even when
> that is longer (time and distance) than the route that we are actually
> taking.

Sometimes they "know" that a route is blocked. Problem is, it doesn't
say why it does what it does.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 10/05/2021 10.56, Tony Mountifield wrote:
> In article <s79h5h$66i$1...@dont-email.me>,

> The Real Bev <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 05/09/2021 01:10 PM, NY wrote:
>>> "nospam" <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
>>> news:090520211459239530%nos...@nospam.invalid...

>>>> In article <s791ke$sbg$1...@dont-email.me>, The Real Bev
>>>> <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> When I update them at home over wifi it says they're good for a year.
>>>>> BUT they seem to go haywire if you don't update within some much shorter
>>>>> period -- like a month. WTF?
>>>>
>>>> they expire in 15 days, at the most:
>>>>
>>>> <https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838?hl=en>
>>>> Offline maps that you downloaded on your phone or tablet need to be
>>>> updated before they expire. When your offline maps expire in 15 days
>>>> or less, Google Maps will try to update the area automatically when
>>>> you're connected to Wi-Fi.
>>
>> So why does it give a 1-year expiration date? Would Google actually LIE
>> to us?
>
> Nope, that's a misunderstanding of what is said. It actually means the maps
> are good for 1 year, but 15 days before the 1 year is up, it will start trying
> to update them automatically over wifi.

Even if the map is good for a year, maybe there have been modifications
and it wants them. If it is on automatic updating over wifi, I see no
objection to it updating itself. I would like another option to update
only when charging, though.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 12/05/2021 06.14, The Real Bev wrote:

> Today I set a route to a local Ikea while I had wifi.  We didn't like
> that route, so took a different one.  The Nice Lady demanded that I make
> a U-turn in various ways for perhaps 5 miles before SILENTLY rerouting
> us the way we wanted to go.  She tried WAY too hard to bend us to her
> will...

Sometimes I go to a remote site. There are two roads; rather the road at
the destination can be entered by both ends, but the farther end means
50 Km more (it is at a mountain top). Being far from home, I may not
notice that it is choosing the wrong route till too late. On the way
back home, as I know where I are, I insist on going home my way. Every
little way, the TomTom wants to turn me back. Until at some point that
suddenly it calculates the correct route some 50 Km shorter. My
conclusion was that the map had the road blocked at that spot in the
road. So I marked the spot and reported the issue to TomTom. They took
their time, but AFAIK they corrected it.

We'll see for sure the next time I drive there.


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.