Why is the iPhone 11 ALWAYS checking your location (even when you've disabled location services)? (Does Android do that too?)

[Arlen Holder]

Which Android phones have this issue?

Earlier this week...
o The iPhone 11 Pro┬ Location Data Puzzler
<https://krebsonsecurity.com/2019/12/the-iphone-11-pros-location-data-puzzler/>
"One of the more curious behaviors of Apple┬ new iPhone 11 Pro is that
it intermittently seeks the user's location information even when all
applications and system services on the phone are individually set to never
request this data. Apple says this is by design, but that response seems at
odds with the company's own privacy policy."

Dateline today, an hour ago...
o Apple says its ultra wideband technology is why newer iPhones appear to share location data, even when the setting is disabled.
<https://techcrunch.com/2019/12/05/apple-ultra-wideband-newer-iphones-location/>

o Apple explains why the iPhone 11 is always checking your location
- It needs to verify that you're in a place where ultra wideband is allowed.
<https://www.engadget.com/2019/12/05/apple-explains-iphone-11-pro-location-activity/>

Which Android phones have this issue?

[nospam]

In article <qsbnnj$dl9$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen Holder

<arlen.geo...@is.invalid> wrote:

> Which Android phones have this issue?

all of them.

<https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locations-even-whe
n-location-services-are-disabled/>
Since the beginning of 2017, Android phones have been collecting the
addresses of nearby cellular towers‹even when location services are
disabled‹and sending that data back to Google. The result is that
Google, the unit of Alphabet behind Android, has access to data about
individualsą locations and their movements that go far beyond a
reasonable consumer expectation of privacy.

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 05 Dec 2019 15:30:14 -0500, nospam wrote:

>> Which Android phones have this issue?
>
> all of them.

Facts.
o Your record on facts, nospam, is no better than a coin toss result.

Every time you apologists post, I have to wonder why you're not used to
speaking with actual adults, since you cherry picked a VERY OLD defunct
issue, which Google long ago openly admitted fault on, and which Google
stopped doing _years_ ago.
o Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was turned off
o It did so via cell tower data
<https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/21/16684818/google-location-tracking-cell-tower-data-android-os-firebase-privacy>
"An update that removes this cell tower data-collecting feature will
roll out by the end of this month, according to Google."

In addition, Google didn't "blame Apple", which is what you apologists and
Apple always do - where Google simply explained without the clever
marketing spin Apple puts on their foibles, what had happened.

Unlike you child-like apologists, I agree it's heinous that Google even
tried to collect cell-tower data for the six months or so that they did,
where, unlike you apologists, I don't apologize for Google; but, the fact
is Google _stopped_ doing that years ago.
o Nope, your Android phone's not secretly tracking your location when you tell it not to
<https://mashable.com/2017/11/21/google-android-location-tracking-services-turned-off/>

You apologists are welcome to find dirt on Google (Lord knows, there's
plenty to find), but finding something that is old and not being done for
years, is pretty lame on your part.

At least find something current, nospam, that's actually happening today.

--
The problem with apologists is they know nothing about Android, but that
doesn't stop them from making up bullshit that they can't back up with
facts.

[Arlen Holder]

Published at 5:30 pm today...
o The iPhone 11's U1 chip necessitates constant geolocation checks, Apple says
<https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/12/the-iphone-11s-u1-chip-necessitates-constant-geolocation-pings-apple-says/>

"While Apple deemed this not to be a security issue, Krebs rightly
pointed out that it remained a potential privacy issue, given Apple's
promises that users have control over how and when iPhones track or report
their locations."

I predict Apple will, just as they did with the heinously secret battery
throttling, add a switch, belatedly, so that the user can turn this newly
secret potential privacy hole off if they wish to do so.

Since Apple loudly proclaims to be "holier than thou" on privacy, it's a
big deal when secret potential privacy holes can possibly be exploited.

"The brief flash of controversy on Twitter and tech blogs over this
issue illustrates the challenges Apple faces with its privacy-oriented
marketing. When the company attempts to position itself as the
privacy-friendly alternative to data-collecting competitors, it invites a
great deal of scrutinyĄXand users are right to be hawkish, given their
experiences not just with Apple's competitors but with Apple in the past."

"Also note that this is not the only circumstance in which the iPhone
locates you without prompting. For example, when you have location services
enabled, your iPhone may scan for nearby Wi-Fi networks and cell phone
towers and send anonymized information about them to Apple to improve other
users' wireless performance when they're in the same location.

Apple told TechCrunch that it plans to add a new user-accessible toggle for
the UWB-related behavior in an upcoming software update."

--
Since Apple loudly proclaims to be "holier than thou" on privacy, when they
have these secret potential privacy loopholes, it's a big deal.

[nospam]

In article <qsc9fk$hcg$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen Holder

<arlen.geo...@is.invalid> wrote:


> o Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was
> turned off

exactly what i said.

> o It did so via cell tower data

along with gps and wifi geolocation.

> <https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/21/16684818/google-location-tracking-cell-to

> wer-data-android-os-firebase-privacy>
> "An update that removes this cell tower data-collecting feature will
> roll out by the end of this month, according to Google."

there are others.

a year later:
<https://apnews.com/828aefab64d4411bac257a07c1af0ecb/AP-Exclusive:-Googl
e-tracks-your-movements,-like-it-or-not>
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) ‹ Google wants to know where you go so badly that
it records your movements even when you explicitly tell it not to.

An Associated Press investigation found that many Google services on
Android devices and iPhones store your location data even if youąve
used a privacy setting that says it will prevent Google from doing so.

note that one applies to google services even on ios devices, not just
android.

google's entire business model is tracking people. they *need* to track
you to make money. that's not the case for apple.

> In addition, Google didn't "blame Apple", which is what you apologists and
> Apple always do - where Google simply explained without the clever
> marketing spin Apple puts on their foibles, what had happened.

nobody blamed apple. in fact, nobody blamed anyone.

you asked which android devices track people when location is off, and
the answer is that all of them do.

[Arlen Holder]

On Thu, 05 Dec 2019 21:12:27 -0500, nospam wrote:

> nobody blamed apple. in fact, nobody blamed anyone.

UWT is new to me, where I first learned of UWT from the news that Apple
secretly violated their own privacy policies in implementing UWT.

This thread is about ultra wideband technology.
o Specifically why Apple violated its own privacy policy with the iPhone 11
o And, specifically, whether any Android OEMs using UWT do the same
NOTE: It may be that no Android OEMs use UWT yet; that's why I asked!

*This thread is _not_ about privacy outside of Ultra Wideband Technology.*

All Apple does, and, by extension, all you apologists do...
o Is incessantly blame everyone but Apple for Apple's design flaws

*In this case, Apple _clearly_ violated their privacy policy (yet again).*

Of course, Apple will blame the technology.
o Which is why I asked whether Android OEMs do the same with UWT

Apple _always_ blames everyone but Apple when they violate their own policies!

Look at how Apple blamed there secret, drastic, and permanent CPU
throttling on batteries, even though no other Android OEM on the planet
ever needed to do what Apple clearly did.
o Do any Android phone manufacturers throttle (CPUs, PD Charging, Modems) like Apple consistently does?
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/xK0qCYaagRw/joYZOK57AQAJ>

Even you blamed Apple's design flaws on Samsung in that thread, nospam.
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/xK0qCYaagRw/zBc5ETaOAQAJ>

Admittedly, Apple is brilliant at spinning away huge iPhone design flaws.
o *Where, in this case, Apple simply lied in their privacy policy.*

> you asked which android devices track people when location is off, and
> the answer is that all of them do.

You always build your own imaginary red herrings, nospam
o Just so you can then attempt to shoot down the straw house you built

This thread is about ultra wideband technology.
o Specifically why Apple violated its own privacy policy with the iPhone 11
o And, specifically, whether any Android OEMs using UWT do the same

*Clearly Apple _lied_ (yet again) in their privacy policy*, where clearly,
now that Apple has been caught red handed in that lie, Apple _will_ (almost
certainly) provide a switch so that this secret location loophole can be
manually closed by the user.

As always, you built your own strawman creating an imaginary question,
which you then answered with ancient data that is no longer valid, nospam.

To clarify for the _adults_ on this newsgroup, this is about
The question was whether any Android manufacturers resort to the same
secret violation of privacy policies that Apple did with UWT.

Note: It may very well be that there aren't any Android OEMs using UWT yet,
which may very well be the case. That's why I asked in the first place.

--
The problem with apologists is they build imaginary strawmen all the time,
simply because they don't like that Apple clearly violated their own
privacy policies in this case, which is the umpteenth time Apple did this.

[nospam]

In article <qsdggv$rpl$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen Holder

<arlen.geo...@is.invalid> wrote:

>
> > nobody blamed apple. in fact, nobody blamed anyone.
>
> UWT is new to me,

and yet you still don't understand it, given that you can't even get
the acronym correct.

it's uwb, ultra wide *band*, and the iphone 11 is the first and
currently the only smartphone to have it.

<https://seekingalpha.com/article/4296537-bigger-vision-behind-iphones-u
wb-chip>
One of the innovations that Apple introduced in the iPhone 11
is Ultra-WideBand (UWB), a chip for precise location and distance
measurements.

you are also moving the goalposts, as usual.

you claimed that people *blamed* apple for google's location tracking,
which is pure rubbish, so now you're trying to spin it into something
entirely different, which you also got wrong.

> where I first learned of UWT from the news that Apple
> secretly violated their own privacy policies in implementing UWT.

they did not.

as usual, you do not understand what you're babbling about.

[joe]

You seem to have missed this point in one of the links you provided:
" there's no reason to be concerned about the behavior".

I suggest you spend more time understanding subjects before distorting
the facts.

[Arlen Holder]

On Fri, 06 Dec 2019 07:36:02 -0500, nospam wrote:
> and yet you still don't understand it, given that you can't even get
> the acronym correct.
>
> it's uwb, ultra wide *band*,

Your brain is limited only to what Apple marketing feeds you to believe.

The fact is that ultra wideband technology (uwt) is a general term:
o ULTRA-WIDEBAND TECHNOLOGY
<https://www.ultrawideband.io/en/technology.php>
"With Ultra-wideband you can determine positions indoors
with an accuracy of 10-30 centimeters."

> and the iphone 11 is the first and
> currently the only smartphone to have it.

That answers the key question, thank you, of whether Android OEMs felt the
intense need to (yet again) secretly violate their own (extremely loudly
proclaimed) privacy policies in order to implement this new ultra wideband
technology.

Thank you.
o Ultra wideband technology
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-wideband>
"Apple launched the first three phones with ultra-wideband capabilities
in September 2019, namely, the iPhone 11, iPhone 11 Pro, and
iPhone 11 Pro Max."

References:
o The U1 chip in the iPhone 11 is the beginning of an Ultra Wideband revolution
<https://sixcolors.com/post/2019/09/the-u1-chip-in-the-iphone-11-is-the-beginning-of-an-ultra-wideband-revolution/>
o How Apple's U1 chip adds 'amazing' new capabilities to the iPhone
<https://www.pocket-lint.com/phones/news/apple/149336-how-apple-s-u1-chip-adds-amazing-new-capabilities-to-the-iphone>
o By embracing ultra-wideband location tech, Apple has a chance to reshape experiences way beyond AirDrop.
<https://www.wired.com/story/apple-u1-chip/>

> you are also moving the goalposts, as usual.

No. You misunderstood the topic, which was _only_ about ultra wideband
technology.

Specifically two questions:
1. Why Apple clearly violated its own privacy policy (yet again), and,
2. Did any Android OEMs feel the intense needs Apple has to violate them?

We have the answer to both questions:
1. Yet again, after getting caught, Apple will add a switch in a later iOS.
2. Android OEMs haven't yet implemented ultra wideband technology.

> you claimed that people *blamed* apple for google's location tracking,
> which is pure rubbish, so now you're trying to spin it into something
> entirely different, which you also got wrong.

It's odd that one of your seven traits, you have no idea of, nospam.

Both you & Apple incessantly blame everyone but Apple for Apple's poor
design choices.

Just as Apple blamed innocent batteries for Apple's secret CPU throttling.
(HINT: No phone OEM other than Apple has _ever_ done what Apple was caught doing.)

>> where I first learned of UWT from the news that Apple
>> secretly violated their own privacy policies in implementing UWT.
>
> they did not.
>
> as usual, you do not understand what you're babbling about.

Are all you apologists always utterly immune to basic facts?

FACTS:
o "Users can disable _all_ location services _entirely_ with one swipe"
o "The icon appears for system services that do not have a switch in Settings"

o Apple Explains Mysterious iPhone 11 Location Requests
<https://krebsonsecurity.com/2019/12/the-iphone-11-pros-location-data-puzzler/>
"Apple's initial and somewhat dismissive response
- that this was expected behavior and not a bug
- *was at odds with its own privacy policy*
and [at odds] with its recent commercials[1]
stating that customers should be in full control
over what they share via their phones and what
their phones share about them."

o [1] Privacy on iPhone - Simple as that - Apple
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py0acqg1oKc>

The good news?
o After Apple is caught, they bow to criticism (e.g., throttling, Siri, etc.)

"Apple says it plans to include the option of a dedicated toggle in System
Services to disable the UWB activity in an upcoming update of its iOS
operating system..."

--
Bear in mind the "big deal" is that Apple *loudly* proclaims to be holier
than thou on privacy, so it's a big deal because the factual evidence
clearly shows, time and again (and time and again, again) and again, and
again, that they're not.

[nospam]

In article <qsdkjk$3b0$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen Holder

<arlen.geo...@is.invalid> wrote:

> On Fri, 06 Dec 2019 07:36:02 -0500, nospam wrote:
> > and yet you still don't understand it, given that you can't even get
> > the acronym correct.
> >
> > it's uwb, ultra wide *band*,
> Your brain is limited only to what Apple marketing feeds you to believe.

the name of the technology is not apple marketing, and you snipped to
alter context, as usual, hiding the fact you fucked up.

> o The U1 chip in the iPhone 11 is the beginning of an Ultra Wideband
> revolution

this is the only thing you've said that's correct.

>
> > you are also moving the goalposts, as usual.
>
> No. You misunderstood the topic, which was _only_ about ultra wideband
> technology.

no, it was your question whether google tracks people when location is
off. you didn't like the answer, so you switched to something else
which also backfired, so you're resorting to ad hominem attacks.

further, i understand quite a bit more about uwb that you do and how it
will be used in iphones and other devices.

by your own admission, you had no idea what uwb was about yesterday,
learning about it from the *news* versus technical documentation.

In article <qsdggv$rpl$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen Holder
<arlen.geo...@is.invalid> wrote:

> UWT is new to me, where I first learned of UWT from the news that Apple

[Arlen Holder]

On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 06:58:19 -0600, joe wrote:

> You seem to have missed this point in one of the links you provided:
> " there's no reason to be concerned about the behavior".
>
> I suggest you spend more time understanding subjects before distorting
> the facts.

Are all you apologists always utterly immune to basic facts?

FACTS:
o "Users can disable _all_ location services _entirely_ with one swipe"
o "The icon appears for system services that do not have a switch in Settings"

o Apple Explains Mysterious iPhone 11 Location Requests
<https://krebsonsecurity.com/2019/12/the-iphone-11-pros-location-data-puzzler/>
"Apple's initial and somewhat dismissive response
- that this was expected behavior and not a bug
- *was at odds with its own privacy policy*
and [at odds] with its recent commercials[1]
stating that customers should be in full control
over what they share via their phones and what
their phones share about them."

o [1] Privacy on iPhone - Simple as that - Apple
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py0acqg1oKc>

The good news?

Only *after* Apple is caught red handed violating privacy policies...
o Then (& only then) they bow to criticism (e.g., throttling, Siri, etc.)

[Arlen Holder]

On Fri, 06 Dec 2019 08:29:45 -0500, nospam wrote:

> no, it was your question whether google tracks people when location is
> off. you didn't like the answer, so you switched to something else
> which also backfired, so you're resorting to ad hominem attacks.

I repeat: The fact you misunderstood the question is readily apparent.
o Perhaps I didn't explain it well the first or second time, nospam.

So, for the third time, I repeat the salient topic:
o *The topic was _only_ about ultra wideband technology.*

Specifically two questions:
1. Why Apple clearly violated its own privacy policy (yet again), and,
2. Did any Android OEMs feel the intense needs Apple has to violate them?

We have the answer to both questions:
1. Yet again, after getting caught, Apple will add a switch in a later iOS.
2. Android OEMs haven't yet implemented ultra wideband technology.

Do you have any _on topic_ facts to add to that discussion, nospam?
o Or are you going to continue to spew Apple Marketing spin on us?

--
The fact Apple was caught red handed (yet again) violating their own
privacy policies, and the fact that Apple will (yet again) belatedly add a
switch, underscores the point that Apple (incessantly) loudly proclaims a
"holier than thou" stance on privacy, which is, as usual, easily shown to
be "imaginary" privacy (as is often the case with Apple Marketing).

[Arlen Holder]

FACTS:

By now, it's clear Apple (yet again) clearly violated its own privacy
policy on all the iPhone 11 series phones.

A. Apple's privacy policy states the user has control.
B. And yet, that was a lie (they don't have control).
C. They will soon, but only because Apple got caught (again).

"Krebs came to a logical conclusion. 'It seems they are saying
their phones have some system services that query your location
regardless of whether one has disabled this setting individually
for all apps and iOS system services,' he wrote. *He wasn't wrong*."

That's from this cite:

o Apple says its ultra wideband technology is why newer iPhones appear to
share location data, even when the setting is disabled

<https://techcrunch.com/2019/12/05/apple-ultra-wideband-newer-iphones-location/>

"Yesterday *Apple was caught red handed* and now the company has
admitted that the settings in millions of iPhones are misleading
users about their use of location data, and promised to fix it. "
<https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2019/12/05/apple-iphone-11-pro-max-upgrade-privacy-security-ios-13-update/>

"Apple's new iPhone 11 range are seeking information about their
location even when users have specifically changed the phone's
privacy settings to stop this from happening. Something that
Krebs notes *violates the company's own privacy policy*."

BTW, _adults_ on this ng, if there are any, will note this assessment:
"Having claimed it had to follow international regulatory requirements,
the company now says it will enable these background location checks
to be disabled in an upcoming iOS update. Which means they didn't
need to be done in the first place."

I realize apologists won't even catch that lie by Apple, but adults will.

--
Notice, Apple claims to be holier than thou on privacy, and yet, Apple
repeatedly violates its own privacy policy, and doesn't stop violating its
own privacy policy unless Apple is caught red handed first.

[Hawk]

On 12/5/2019 3:30 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article <qsbnnj$dl9$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen Holder
> <arlen.geo...@is.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Which Android phones have this issue?
>
> all of them.
>
> <https://qz.com/1131515/google-collects-android-users-locations-even-whe
> n-location-services-are-disabled/>
> Since the beginning of 2017, Android phones have been collecting the
> addresses of nearby cellular towers‹even when location services are
> disabled‹and sending that data back to Google. The result is that
> Google, the unit of Alphabet behind Android, has access to data about

> individuals¹ locations and their movements that go far beyond a

> reasonable consumer expectation of privacy.
>

In your quest to feel superior you have a difficult time ignoring the
troll. You're both two peas in a pod.

[Rod Speed]

"Hawk" <Ha...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:qsesn4$18s$1...@dont-email.me...

Two turds in an arsehole, actually.

[Arlen Holder]

On Fri, 6 Dec 2019 19:42:13 -0500, Hawk wrote:

> In your quest to feel superior you have a difficult time ignoring the
> troll. You're both two peas in a pod.

Hi Hawk,

Thanks for proving (yet again) you belong on this long-standing list of
known worthless trolls... easily proven by your utter lack of value in what
you just posted (and, in what you _always_ post, Hawk).

Just watch.

o Alan Baker <nu...@ness.biz>
o Alan Browne <bitb...@blackhole.com>
o Ammammata <amma...@tiscalinet.it> (not an apologist, but is ignorant)
o Andreas Rutishauser <and...@macandreas.ch>
o Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> (educated & yet immune to fact)
o Beedle <Bee...@dont-email.me>
o B...@Onramp.net (it's hard to find a human any dumber, sadly to say)
o Chris <ithi...@gmail.com>
o Davoud <st...@sky.net>
o dpb <no...@none.net> (posts worthless drivel - but keeps it short)
o Elden <use...@moondog.org>
o Elfin <elfi...@gmail.com> (aka Lloyd, aka Lloyd Parsons)
o *Hawk <Ha...@gmail.com> (literally posts what children would post)*
o Hemidactylus <ecph...@allspamis.invalid>
o joe <no...@domain.invalid>
o Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> (has no adult thought processes)
o Johan <JH...@nospam.invalid>
o John McWilliams <jp...@comcast.net> (child-like cognitive skills)
o Jolly Roger <jolly...@pobox.com> (one of the dumbest of all)
o Lewis <g.k...@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> (dumber than most)
o Lloyd <elfi...@gmail.com> (aka "Elfin")
o Lloyd Parsons <lloy...@gmail.com> (aka "Elfin")
o Meanie <M...@gmail.com>
o nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> (bullshitter par excellence)
o Panthera Tigris Altaica <northe...@outlook.com>
o Sandman <m...@sandman.net> (hates any and all facts about Apple)
o Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> (not dumb - but stupid)
o Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> (aka Michael Glasser, troll #1)
o Tim Streater <timst...@greenbee.net> (indescribably childish)
o Wade Garrett <wa...@cooler.net> (about as dumb as a human can be)
o Your Name <Your...@YourISP.com> (never posts anything of value)
o et al.

--
To spare the adults on this newsgroup the indignity of me having to drop
down to Hawk's level simply to respond to his trolls calling everyone but
himself the troll, this is my one and only response to the well-known Apple
troll, Hawk, in this thread.

[Arlen Holder]

On 7 Dec 2019 04:20:45 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:

> On 2019-12-06, joe <no...@domain.invalid> wrote:
>> On 12/6/2019 6:11 AM, Arlen Holder wrote:
>>> On Thu, 05 Dec 2019 21:12:27 -0500, nospam wrote:
>>>
>>>> nobody blamed apple. in fact, nobody blamed anyone.
>>>
>>> UWT is new to me
>>>

>> You seem to have missed this point in one of the links you provided:
>> " there's no reason to be concerned about the behavior".
>

> Indeed:
>
> <https://techcrunch.com/2019/12/05/apple-ultra-wideband-newer-iphones-location/>
>
> ---
> ´The management of ultra wideband compliance and its use of location
> data is done entirely on the device and Apple is not collecting user
> location data,¡ the spokesperson said.
>
> That seems to back up what experts have discerned so far. Will Strafach,
> chief executive at Guardian Firewall and iOS security expert, said in a
> tweet that his analysis showed there was ´no evidence¡ that any location
> data is sent to a remote server.
> --
>
> Nobody's privacy was ever "violated" here. But trolls gotta troll.

What's amazing is how utterly _immune_ to verified facts, apologists are!

Apple lied _twice_ to cover up these FACTS:

FACTS:
1. The ultrawideband location design _violated_ Apple's own privacy policy.
2. Apple lied when they said it was required (since Apple is removing it).

*It's classic that you Apple apologists prove to be _immune_ to facts!*

--
It doesn't even dawn on these child-like apologists that Apple lied to
cover up these two extremely obvious facts which are both easily verified.

[Arlen Holder]

On Sat, 07 Dec 2019 07:55:26 -0500, nospam wrote:

>> What's amazing is how utterly _immune_ to verified facts, I am!
>>
>> I lied _twice_ to cover up these FACTS:
>
> ftfy

Thanks for always proving me right...
o Not so much by what I say but simply by the childish things you write.

The _adults_ on this ng, if any, will note apologists turn into instant
fifth-grade children when confronted with facts, they simply don't like.
o Why do the apologists like nospam turn into instant children in the face of mere facts (e.g., ftfy)?
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/TZbkkqS3jv4>

The facts are clear to adults, if any, on this newsgroup:
1. Apple violated its privacy policy with universal wideband technology.
2. Apple claimed it had to do it; but that imaginary excuse disappeared.

Apple lied; twice.

--
What's interesting is how apologists can't stand valid facts about Apple.

[Arlen Holder]