Calls in Italy

[Ken Blake]

I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.

Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?

[Dave Royal]

What problems do you expect using your Mint service in Rome? Does Mint not
offer roaming? Does your phone not have the correct frequency bands?

I've used UK GSM phones on the US T-Mobile network, which used GSM like in
Europe - but it was a few years ago.

You could buy a local SIM but I doubt if you need to, and some countries
make it difficult for foreigners to do so. (I had an Italien SIM and had
to provide my Italian 'codice fiscale' - tax code!)


--
(Remove numerics from email address)

[Bob Henson]

This link has a pretty comprehensive breakdown of how to get the best
card for your purpose.

https://tinyurl.com/26uyvqjp


--
Bob,
Tetbury, Gloucestershire, England

If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything. — Mark Twain

[Ken Blake]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 14:39:14 -0000 (UTC), Dave
Royal<da...@dave123royal.com> wrote:

>On 13 Jun 2023 06:45:30 -0700 Ken Blake wrote:
>>I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>>coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>>expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>>case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>
>>Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>
>What problems do you expect using your Mint service in Rome?

It wasn't that I was expecting problems. Rather I wanted to make sure
it wouldn't be very expensive.

>Does Mint not
>offer roaming?

Yes, they do, and after I sent the message, I checked their web site
and bought $10 worth. So it's probably OK.

>Does your phone not have the correct frequency bands?

I had assume it did, but I don't know for sure.

[Ken Blake]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 15:54:50 +0100, Bob Henson
<bob.h...@outlook.com> wrote:

>On 13.6.23 2:45 pm, Ken Blake wrote:
>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>
>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>
>
>This link has a pretty comprehensive breakdown of how to get the best
>card for your purpose.
>
>https://tinyurl.com/26uyvqjp

Thanks very much.

[Theo]

Dave Royal <da...@dave123royal.com> wrote:
> make it difficult for foreigners to do so. (I had an Italien SIM and had
> to provide my Italian 'codice fiscale' - tax code!)

There's a website that will generate you an official codice fiscale with
some basic details: I got one to sign up to an Italian VOIP server despite
never having been to, or having any connection with, Italy.

Theo

[RonTheGuy]

On Jun 13, 2023, Ken Blake wrote
(in article<news:4fsg8itvoobvg85ch...@4ax.com>):

> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?

What about Google Voice?

Ron, the humblest guy in town.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 13.06.23 um 18:51 schrieb RonTheGuy:

Even more information and tracking for Google? Not really.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

[Ken Blake]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 08:51:13 -0800, RonTheGuy <r...@null.invalid>
wrote:

>On Jun 13, 2023, Ken Blake wrote
>(in article<news:4fsg8itvoobvg85ch...@4ax.com>):
>
>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>
>What about Google Voice?

I know next to nothing about it. Can I make calls with it? On my
Android phone?

[RonTheGuy]

On Jun 13, 2023, Ken Blake wrote

(in article<news:pmch8i5mh9sc3jju6...@4ax.com>):

>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>>
>>What about Google Voice?
>
> I know next to nothing about it. Can I make calls with it? On my
> Android phone?

Google Voice has long been a topic on this newsgroup a thousand times.
So it shouldn't be the first time you've heard of it if you've been here.

Google Voice is a free app that makes free phone calls to anywhere in the
United States and it receives free phone calls from anywhere anywhere.
https://support.google.com/voice/answer/115061

That includes phone calls to and from normal landline numbers too!

You get a phone number with Google Voice but you can have it ring any
number of phone numbers, and it can transcribe voice mail to your email.

The app is available on all the consumer platforms as far as I know.
https://voice.google.com/about

Europe calls are about 2 cents a minute so that's what it should cost you.

[The Real Bev]

On 6/13/23 11:28 AM, RonTheGuy wrote:
> On Jun 13, 2023, Ken Blake wrote
> (in article<news:pmch8i5mh9sc3jju6...@4ax.com>):
>
>>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>>>
>>>What about Google Voice?
>>
>> I know next to nothing about it. Can I make calls with it? On my
>> Android phone?
>
> Google Voice has long been a topic on this newsgroup a thousand times.
> So it shouldn't be the first time you've heard of it if you've been here.
>
> Google Voice is a free app that makes free phone calls to anywhere in the
> United States and it receives free phone calls from anywhere anywhere.
> https://support.google.com/voice/answer/115061

IF you have a wifi connection. I have no data plan so I depend on the
kindness of public free wifi hotspots.

AND make sure you actually CAN receive phone calls. For some reason I
couldn't until I spent maybe an hour resetting things that I was pretty
sure I hadn't set to begin with three or more years previous. Perhaps
just giving it a phone number to forward calls to (but not authorizing
the forward) did it. At any rate, make sure it works in advance of need.

> That includes phone calls to and from normal landline numbers too!
>
> You get a phone number with Google Voice but you can have it ring any
> number of phone numbers, and it can transcribe voice mail to your email.
>
> The app is available on all the consumer platforms as far as I know.
> https://voice.google.com/about
>
> Europe calls are about 2 cents a minute so that's what it should cost you.
>
> Ron, the humblest guy in town.

Ha!

--
Cheers, Bev
Never argue with a woman holding a torque wrench.

[Dave Royal]

Yes, mine was a fake code too. I needed an Italian address, but anywhere
would do.

I had SIMs from all over Europe when that was the only way to get
affordable data in usable amounts: eg €3 per month for 40MB (not GB) in
Greece. I used four of those SIMs in rotation.

It's all much easier now with standard roaming tariffs across the EU. I
still have a German SIM but the rest have all expired.

[Ken Blake]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 10:28:09 -0800, RonTheGuy <r...@null.invalid>
wrote:

>On Jun 13, 2023, Ken Blake wrote
>(in article<news:pmch8i5mh9sc3jju6...@4ax.com>):
>
>>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>>>
>>>What about Google Voice?
>>
>> I know next to nothing about it. Can I make calls with it? On my
>> Android phone?
>
>Google Voice has long been a topic on this newsgroup a thousand times.
>So it shouldn't be the first time you've heard of it if you've been here.

Yes, I've heard of it, here and elsewhere. But since I was never
interested, I didn't pay much attention to it.

>Google Voice is a free app that makes free phone calls to anywhere in the
>United States and it receives free phone calls from anywhere anywhere.
>https://support.google.com/voice/answer/115061

Calls to anywhere in the US, but not to numbers in Italy? If that's
the case, I don't think it's what I want. I may want to do things like
call a taxi while I'm there.

[Frank Slootweg]

Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 10:28:09 -0800, RonTheGuy <r...@null.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >On Jun 13, 2023, Ken Blake wrote
> >(in article<news:pmch8i5mh9sc3jju6...@4ax.com>):
> >
> >>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
> >>>
> >>>What about Google Voice?
> >>
> >> I know next to nothing about it. Can I make calls with it? On my
> >> Android phone?
> >
> >Google Voice has long been a topic on this newsgroup a thousand times.
> >So it shouldn't be the first time you've heard of it if you've been here.
>
> Yes, I've heard of it, here and elsewhere. But since I was never
> interested, I didn't pay much attention to it.
>
>
> >Google Voice is a free app that makes free phone calls to anywhere in the
> >United States and it receives free phone calls from anywhere anywhere.
> >https://support.google.com/voice/answer/115061
>
> Calls to anywhere in the US, but not to numbers in Italy? If that's
> the case, I don't think it's what I want. I may want to do things like
> call a taxi while I'm there.

I don't know the first thing about Google Voice (GV is only available
to US users), but I think you're misreading this.

I read it as *free* calls to anywhere in the US and *cheap* (2ct/min)
calls in Europe: See Ron's (quoted) comment at the end.

[Theo]

Dave Royal <da...@dave123royal.com> wrote:
> I had SIMs from all over Europe when that was the only way to get
> affordable data in usable amounts: eg €3 per month for 40MB (not GB) in
> Greece. I used four of those SIMs in rotation.

Ah yes, I remember that tariff. Cosmote I think it was? I remember having
a pile of Cosmote SIMs, possibly for the same reason.

> It's all much easier now with standard roaming tariffs across the EU. I
> still have a German SIM but the rest have all expired.

If you're only interested in data, not calls or SMS, there are some
reasonable deals from international eSIM providers like Airalo. eSIM means
you can set them up without needing to go and buy a physical SIM, or to show
up at the police station with your passport (or whatever the local
requirements are).

International eSIM providers that give you a number for voice and SMS are
rarer, though. They might work for VOIP services like Google Voice, though.

Theo

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 13.06.23 um 20:28 schrieb RonTheGuy:

> On Jun 13, 2023, Ken Blake wrote
> (in article<news:pmch8i5mh9sc3jju6...@4ax.com>):
>
>>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>>>
>>> What about Google Voice?
>>
>> I know next to nothing about it. Can I make calls with it? On my
>> Android phone?
>
> Google Voice has long been a topic on this newsgroup a thousand times.
> So it shouldn't be the first time you've heard of it if you've been here.
>
> Google Voice is a free app that makes free phone calls to anywhere in the
> United States and it receives free phone calls from anywhere anywhere.
> https://support.google.com/voice/answer/115061

But not in Europe AFAIK.


--
De gustibus non est disputandum

[RonTheGuy]

On Jun 13, 2023, Frank Slootweg wrote
(in article<news:u6anfd...@ID-201911.user.individual.net>):

> I read it as *free* calls to anywhere in the US and *cheap* (2ct/min)
> calls in Europ

Yes. GV is free calls to anywhere in the USA & cheap calls overseas.
https://toomanyadapters.com/google-voice-travel/

That's why it's the number one choice of expats, I'm told.
https://www.instarem.com/blog/google-voice-expat/

When I call people in Europe, it costs me about 2 cents a minute.

Mostly I call France and the UK but Italy should be the same.
https://www.openphone.com/blog/google-voice-international-calls/

Lots of people say that Google Voice is the best option abroad.
https://mafrenchlife.com/google-voice-abroad/

[RonTheGuy]

On Jun 13, 2023, Joerg Lorenz wrote
(in article<news:u6ajgn$19lqi$2...@solani.org>):

>> Google Voice is a free app that makes free phone calls to anywhere in the
>> United States and it receives free phone calls from anywhere anywhere.
>> https://support.google.com/voice/answer/115061
>
> But not in Europe AFAIK.

This was discussed many times so you must have missed it in the past.
You get the Google Voice while you're in the USA.

You use it a few times to call internationally.
So you can set up the payment plan (for the 2 cents/minute).

Then you take the device abroad.
And you use it on Wi-Fi or cellular while you're abroad.

This is all a repeat of what was posted many times here so I'm done.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 13.06.23 um 22:36 schrieb RonTheGuy:

> On Jun 13, 2023, Joerg Lorenz wrote
> (in article<news:u6ajgn$19lqi$2...@solani.org>):
>
>>> Google Voice is a free app that makes free phone calls to anywhere in the
>>> United States and it receives free phone calls from anywhere anywhere.
>>> https://support.google.com/voice/answer/115061
>>
>> But not in Europe AFAIK.
>
> This was discussed many times so you must have missed it in the past.
> You get the Google Voice while you're in the USA.>
> You use it a few times to call internationally.
> So you can set up the payment plan (for the 2 cents/minute).

Not needed at all. My mobile plan costs me $45 a month and I have
everything full flat in Canada, USA, US overseas territories, Mexico,
and of course all of Europe. Google voice is absolutely redundant in Europe.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 13.06.23 um 22:36 schrieb RonTheGuy:

[VanguardLH]

RonTheGuy <r...@null.invalid> wrote:

> Ken Blake wrote:
>
>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>
> What about Google Voice?

https://support.google.com/a/answer/12743190?hl=en

Italy is included, so maybe Google Voice (GV) would be available from
there. The OP will need an Internet connect via wifi or cellular data.
If not connected to wifi, the OP will still need a cellular carrier to
have data service to connect to the Internet to make a VOIP call to GV.
The OP should install the GV app, and configure it to ask which dialer
to use to make a call (sometimes the regular dialer is required to use a
cellular carrier when GV fails).

Instead of using a phone, the OP could use the GV web site to make calls
since the computer which is connected to the GV site obviously already
has an Internet connection; however, the OP will need a headset to hear
and speak audio during the call, and that means the available computer
must not have its USB ports disabled, and the audio settings are
available to switch to the headset device. Don't rely on someone else's
computer having speakers and microphone.

Calls to/from USA and Canada destinations are free. International calls
incur a cost, the OP better have a credit card registered in his Google
Voice account (Wallet) to pay for those intl calls. You have to
configure your GV account to dump some credit in there as a reserve
against future GV expenses, like intl calling, or enable the
auto-recharge feature to load more credit when the Wallet balance falls
below a threshold.

https://support.google.com/voice/answer/7491761?hl=en
https://voice.google.com/u/0/rates

There isn't just 1 rate for a country. Depends on the type of telephony
device to which the call gets connected; i.e., landline vs mobile vs
toll-free vs receiver's carrier vs etc.

https://www.openphone.com/blog/google-voice-international-calls/

If the OP plans on having "calls" to just family and friends, better to
use an Internet chat client. That means pre-planning to have them use
the same chat service as yourself, like WhatsApp, WeChat, Pidgen, mIRC,
etc. However, Internet access may not be free wherever the OP happens
to get access. A resort will likely have you pay for Internet service,
or it's added to your cost. An Internet cafe will charge for use of
their computers, and you may have problems getting a headset to work on
a locked down workstation (they may have a mic and speakers, but forget
about private calling unless you get a separate room).

[VanguardLH]

https://www.mintmobile.com/features/international-roaming/
(looks like you already checked this out)

If you're only going to make calls to friends and family, maybe you
could convince them to get the same chat client (WhatsApp, WeChat, mIRC,
Skype, etc). Wherever or however you get an Internet connection, like a
wifi connect to your smartphone, you could use the chat client. If you
can't get a wifi connect on your phone for Internet access, you need a
cellular carrier to use their data service.

Google Voice is also usable from their web site, or using the GV app on
your smartphone, but you'll need Internet access (wifi, cellular data),
and likely a headset for speakers and microphone unless you're toting
around your own computer with those. Wherever you are staying might
offer Internet service (at a cost, or included in the room rate).

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 13.06.23 um 22:48 schrieb Joerg Lorenz:

I do not want Google to know to whom I'm talking and when.
And even more so all my contacts can reach me under the mobile number
they already have for many many years.

IMHO Google is a p..ce of sh.t.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-06-13 22:36, RonTheGuy wrote:
> On Jun 13, 2023, Joerg Lorenz wrote
> (in article<news:u6ajgn$19lqi$2...@solani.org>):
>
>>> Google Voice is a free app that makes free phone calls to anywhere in the
>>> United States and it receives free phone calls from anywhere anywhere.
>>> https://support.google.com/voice/answer/115061
>>
>> But not in Europe AFAIK.
>
> This was discussed many times so you must have missed it in the past.
> You get the Google Voice while you're in the USA.
>
> You use it a few times to call internationally.
> So you can set up the payment plan (for the 2 cents/minute).
>
> Then you take the device abroad.
> And you use it on Wi-Fi or cellular while you're abroad.

.............................**********

And where do you get that cellular from? Because that is the main problem.

The answer is that you have to ask your provider, what is the cost for
having data on the destination country. If this is expensive, you need a
local SIM on the destination (or from another EU country).


If your answer is "use a free WiFi", that is totally unreliable if you
need a taxi.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Stefan Claas]

On 13.06.23 23:06, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

>> Not needed at all. My mobile plan costs me $45 a month and I have
>> everything full flat in Canada, USA, US overseas territories, Mexico,
>> and of course all of Europe. Google voice is absolutely redundant in Europe.
>
> I do not want Google to know to whom I'm talking and when.
> And even more so all my contacts can reach me under the mobile number
> they already have for many many years.
>
> IMHO Google is a p..ce of sh.t.

Do you use YouTube or Chrome or the GMail app?
--
miniLock ID: AUDETPpz34FaiQcKwV8yw5wgqU22s54UNm1boJPqY7J3L
Please use base64 or base91 for ASCII armor.

[sms]

I was in Italy pre-pandemic and pre-BREXIT and I used a UK Vodafone SIM
card that was a good deal, €1 per 500MB plus calling and texting in the
EU and EEA. I activated it in the U.S.. But Vodafone UK wrecked that
plan after BREXIT.

Be very careful about buying SIM cards in the U.S. for the EU. Most of
the ones on Amazon have poor ratings. Look at
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08WRKW4D5> which has four stars. 15GB in the
EU/EEA should be sufficient for 14 days. Be certain that you don't have
to activate a SIM card in the country of origin, i.e. you don't want to
have to go to France first to activate a SIM card that you'll use in Italy.

Buying a SIM card when you get to Italy is possible but will likely not
be any cheaper and you have to find a shop and not be ripped off.

You really want a SIM that is NOT data only, you want to have a phone
number in the EU.

Be sure to have WhatsApp on your phone since it is widely used, as well
as Google Voice.

There is a way to forward your T-Mobile calls to a European number if
you set it up before you leave
<https://www.mintmobile.com/help/how-to-turn-on-off-call-forwarding/>,
but it costs a little. What you do is to rent an incoming U.S. number on
Localphone and forward T-Mobile calls to that number, then forward the
Localphone calls to you European number. But just forwarding to a Google
Voice number should be sufficient and you can pick up calls using the
Google Voice app using data.

And be really careful about pickpockets, though they'd be really upset
to have stolen a Pixel 4A.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

[sms]

On 6/13/2023 7:39 AM, Dave Royal wrote:
> On 13 Jun 2023 06:45:30 -0700 Ken Blake wrote:
>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>
>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>
> What problems do you expect using your Mint service in Rome?

I suspect it's because Mint doesn't offer any domestic or international
roaming.

[sms]

On 6/13/2023 2:38 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

<snip>

> The answer is that you have to ask your provider, what is the cost for
> having data on the destination country. If this is expensive, you need a
> local SIM on the destination (or from another EU country).

No need to ask, Mint does not have any domestic or international roaming.

[sms]

On 6/13/2023 6:45 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>
> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?

BTW, if you're on your own and not on a group tour (hopefully) then
you'll end up using quite a bit of data. The Moovit app is great for
Italy. Also the Google Translate App with Lens is amazing in translating
things like menus. I used around 500MB per day in Italy and sometimes I
had to pay another €1 for 500MB more.

We were on our own for much of the trip though for four days we were
visiting my city's sister city and we were taken around in a bus. Even
then I was using a lot of data because some others on the trip were
hot-spotting in because they had slow T-Mobile international roaming
data (included by mostly unusable).

With the card already in the phone when we landed in Milan we had
service right away which was helpful in navigating to our AirBNB using
the train from the airport. I would do the same again even though buying
a SIM in advance is not the least expensive way to go. Just don't buy a
SIM in the airport (or change money there!).

Note that Apple Pay and Google Pay are widely used in Italy. I used very
little cash when I was there. Even the pay toilets took Apple Pay and
Google Pay.

[The Real Bev]

On 6/13/23 6:06 PM, sms wrote:
> On 6/13/2023 2:38 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> The answer is that you have to ask your provider, what is the cost for
>> having data on the destination country. If this is expensive, you need a
>> local SIM on the destination (or from another EU country).
>
> No need to ask, Mint does not have any domestic or international roaming.

A friend and her family have used Line to talk among themselves --
Taiwan, Los Angeles, Boston -- for many years.

Apparently Italy is free.

https://line.me/en/call/price-table


--
Cheers, Bev
Paranoid schizophrenics outnumber their enemies at least two to one.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 14.06.23 um 03:00 schrieb Stefan Claas:

> On 13.06.23 23:06, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>
>>> Not needed at all. My mobile plan costs me $45 a month and I have
>>> everything full flat in Canada, USA, US overseas territories, Mexico,
>>> and of course all of Europe. Google voice is absolutely redundant in Europe.
>>
>> I do not want Google to know to whom I'm talking and when.
>> And even more so all my contacts can reach me under the mobile number
>> they already have for many many years.
>>
>> IMHO Google is a p..ce of sh.t.
>
> Do you use YouTube or Chrome or the GMail app?

Youtube only without login and with Adblocker. Btw: There are alternatives.
Chrome? Not for money even not on my Pixel. Even not Chromium which is
only pro forma FOSS.
Gmail? Are you serious?

With NoScript I keep Google and all its "services" out of my life.
Google cannot send me ads or track me in the internet.

*Google is evil*

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 13.06.23 um 23:38 schrieb Carlos E.R.:

SIC!

[Chris]

Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>
> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?

What's your most likely use case? Calling local numbers in italy or calling
US numbers? If the former, use whatsapp as pretty much ask italians use it.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 14.06.23 um 08:44 schrieb Chris:

Nonsense. How do you call a taxi with such a kindergarten-tool that less
than 60% of the Italian smartphone users have on their smartphones?

Skype would be much more helpful. Skype can reach all phone numbers
around the globe. But it does not solve the issue of mobile connections.

If the OP wants to be always reachable there is no way around a mobile
service and preferably under his usual number.

Such a mess for perhaps $ 20-50?

[Stefan Claas]

On 14.06.23 1:24, Joerg Lorenz wrote:

> Youtube only without login and with Adblocker.

Whoosh. I didn't say in a browser. I said YouTube. The app.

> Btw: There are alternatives.

That was my point. If you're not using the alternatives, then EVERYTHING
you said about Google was worthless because you don't follow your advice.

> Chrome? Not for money even not on my Pixel. Even not Chromium which is
> only pro forma FOSS.

What browser do you use?

> Gmail? Are you serious?

What MUA do you use?

> With NoScript I keep Google and all its "services" out of my life.
> Google cannot send me ads or track me in the internet.

You seem to believe EVERYTHING is a browser. It's not.

> *Google is evil*

And yet you use it. And you don't even realize that you are using it.
You think everything is a browser. You think adblock will save you.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 13.06.23 um 17:55 schrieb Ken Blake:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 14:39:14 -0000 (UTC), Dave
> Royal<da...@dave123royal.com> wrote:
>> Does Mint not
>> offer roaming?
>
> Yes, they do, and after I sent the message, I checked their web site
> and bought $10 worth. So it's probably OK.

Yes it is. It is the most useful and economic step to ensure continued
connectivity.

>> Does your phone not have the correct frequency bands?
>
> I had assume it did, but I don't know for sure.

Yes. Newer smartphones are always fully compatible.

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 14.06.23 um 08:58 schrieb Stefan Claas:

> On 14.06.23 1:24, Joerg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> Youtube only without login and with Adblocker.
>
> Whoosh. I didn't say in a browser. I said YouTube. The app.

Guess why I do not use the "app".

>> Btw: There are alternatives.
>
> That was my point. If you're not using the alternatives, then EVERYTHING
> you said about Google was worthless because you don't follow your advice.

Klugscheisser. But no clue of anything.

>> Chrome? Not for money even not on my Pixel. Even not Chromium which is
>> only pro forma FOSS.
>
> What browser do you use?

*ROTFLSTC*: Safari and Firefox and sometimes the TOR-browser.

>
>> Gmail? Are you serious?
>
> What MUA do you use?

Evolution and Thunderbird. K-9 on my Pixel to stay on topic.

>> With NoScript I keep Google and all its "services" out of my life.
>> Google cannot send me ads or track me in the internet.
>
> You seem to believe EVERYTHING is a browser. It's not.

Idiot. You need professional help on more than one level.

>> *Google is evil*
>
> And yet you use it. And you don't even realize that you are using it.

Idiot and trollish. You do not understand what creates value for Google.

> You think everything is a browser. You think adblock will save you.

Wisenheimer. You do not understand much. Smartphones are *always* just
workarounds and not more.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 14.06.23 um 03:04 schrieb sms:

> On 6/13/2023 7:39 AM, Dave Royal wrote:
>> On 13 Jun 2023 06:45:30 -0700 Ken Blake wrote:
>>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>>
>> What problems do you expect using your Mint service in Rome?
>
> I suspect it's because Mint doesn't offer any domestic or international
> roaming.

Idiot.

https://www.mintmobile.com/help/how-do-i-travel-internationally-with-mint-mobile/

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-06-14 03:03, sms wrote:
> On 6/13/2023 6:45 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>
>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>
> I was in Italy pre-pandemic and pre-BREXIT and I used a UK Vodafone SIM
> card that was a good deal, €1 per 500MB plus calling and texting in the
> EU and EEA. I activated it in the U.S.. But Vodafone UK wrecked that
> plan after BREXIT.

I had visitors last year in Spain, and they bought a prepaid Vodafone
card I did not know about. I don't remember the details, but maybe 50€,
unlimited data, unlimited calls, for a month.

They had to call their flight company office at the other side of the
Atlantic, several very long phone calls, which to me would have been
expensive, were free to them.

They found the card while walking the side streets of Barcelona, at a
small shop that sold cards mostly to immigrants and foreigners (it
helped that my visitors speak Spanish) :-D

I was trying to find a suitable card on Internet, but my cousin beat me
to it just strolling and getting lost on the streets :-D

For paper work, I think they needed some ID like a driving license or
passport.

I suppose Italy is similar, but I do not know.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[VanguardLH]

Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:

> Am 14.06.23 um 08:44 schrieb Chris:
>> Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>>
>> What's your most likely use case? Calling local numbers in italy or calling
>> US numbers? If the former, use whatsapp as pretty much ask italians use it.
>
> Nonsense. How do you call a taxi with such a kindergarten-tool that
> less than 60% of the Italian smartphone users have on their
> smartphones?

Wondering where you got that statistic. According to online sources,
there are 59.11 million Italians. According to WhatsApp stats, there
are 35.5 million users. Comes to 60.1%. Geez, you were spot on.

Still, that's better market penetration than, say, India (390.1 million
users / 1.408 billion population = 27.7%), or the USA (75.1 million
users / 331.9 million population = 22.6%).

> Skype would be much more helpful. Skype can reach all phone numbers
> around the globe. But it does not solve the issue of mobile connections.

You have to buy Skype-Out minutes. Then your Skype account can not only
connect to other Skype users (which is free), but also to any type of
phones (landline, mobile), but mobile coverage is more limited. They
used be called Skype-In and Skype-Out minutes, but it looks like they've
been merged and just called Skype Minutes.

With an MS 365 subscription, and after activation of your Skype account,
you get 60 Skype-Out minutes per month. They do not roll over if not
used. It's one of those perks you get with an MS 365 subscription, like
the 1 TB of online storage at Onedrive. I didn't know anyone using
Skype for the free chat connect, but I did (maybe 2 times in a year) use
Skype to call phone numbers in over 60 countries.

https://go.skype.com/office365/

They want me to subscribe before they'll show me the list. A poster
said the following countries are covered:

Landlines and mobile phones: Canada, China, Guam, Hong Kong SAR, Japan,
Puerto Rico, Singapore, Thailand, and the United States.

Landlines only: Andorra, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brazil,
Brunei, Bulgaria, Chile, China, Croatia, Colombia (excl. Lex), Costa
Rica, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany,
Greece, Guadeloupe, Hungary, Iceland, Indonesia (Jakarta), Ireland,
Israel, *Italy*, Korea, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Malta,
Mexico, Morocco, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Panama, Paraguay,
Peru, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Slovenia, South
Africa, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Turkey, United Kingdom, and
Venezuela.

I did find:

https://secure.skype.com/en/international-calls

You'd have to see the rates to know how fast you'd consume your Skype
Minutes. Skype minutes are not included with Office 365 in Algeria,
Bahrain, China, Egypt, India, Korea, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco,
Namibia, Pakistan, Qatar, Taiwan, Tunisia, and United Arab Emirates.
The OP lives in the USA, so 60 min/mo would be included if he purchased
or already had an MS 365 subscription with a USA license. Special,
premium, and non-geographic numbers are not covered by Skype minutes,
but I haven't found a list of just what are those type of phone numbers.
Skype has limited emergency calling capabilities depending on your
country (where you would be requesting those services). As far as I can
determine, "limited" means just in the USA: go into your Skype account,
click on your photo icon (account), select Settings, Privacy, and turn
on 911 emergency location sharing. The device on which you run the
Skype app my support an API for location sharing; else, your location
won't be available to the emergency services operator.

You don't have to pay Microsoft's high yearly subscription cost to get
an MS 365 (and an MS account) to get Skype. There are plenty of eBay
and other sellers that will set it for cheap. With Buyer Protection
from eBay, if what they sell you is invalid or pirated, you get your
money back. One time I got an unrequested refund despite the license
was working for close to a year. eBay found the seller was splitting
out license from a volume license, killed their account, and issued
refunds. I still bought another license from a different seller who was
willing to send me the registration codes for the 5 license cards I
bought as soon as he got payment, so I could immediately validate the
cards after the purchase instead of waiting for the cards to arrive via
postal mail. As I registered each card at Microsoft, another year got
added to the subscription, so I got 5 years total. I didn't renew after
it expired. The cost per card, at that time, was $33/card.

There are cheaper solutions to what the OP wants, but if he already has
an MS/Office 365 subscription then he already gets 60 Skype minutes per
month.

For "calling" friends or family, and if you can convince them to install
the same chat app, I'd look into using WhatsApp, or other chat clients.
Those are free "calls" (chats) between matching chat clients. Yeah, I
can't see using them for making phone calls, like to get a taxi, contact
a restaurant, or other telephony-based services. Some service have
integrated their dispatch system with WhatsApp, like Uber; see:

https://www.livemint.com/technology/tech-news/how-to-book-a-uber-ride-via-whatsapp-a-step-by-step-guide-11672114596340.html

However, users commenting on using Uber in Italy note that only the Uber
Black service tier is available (higher ride rates) making it more
expensive than using taxis, and only available in Rome and Milano.

https://trengo.com/blog/whatsapp-business-statistics

There are WhatsApp Business app users. There are 50 million (perhaps
more now) businesses that use WhatsApp. Apparently there is a Business
Catalog a business can create that WhatsApp users can view to shop for
products and contact the business. I've never used WhatsApp to know how
this shit works. In effect, it looks like WhatsApp Business catalogs
are like a mini-Web using the WhatsApp app instead of a web browser.

https://sproutsocial.com/insights/how-to-use-whatsapp-for-business/

I figure if there is an audience, businesses will find them using
whatever venue can reach that audience. Used to be a telephone book,
newspaper, and TV, then the Web, and now WhatsApp Business is happening,
too. I have no idea how many business operate over WhatsApp, or which
would be available in Italy (in whatever part of it the OP is at the
time).

[Chris]

Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 14.06.23 um 08:44 schrieb Chris:
>> Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>>
>> What's your most likely use case? Calling local numbers in italy or calling
>> US numbers? If the former, use whatsapp as pretty much ask italians use it.
>
> Nonsense. How do you call a taxi with such a kindergarten-tool that less
> than 60% of the Italian smartphone users have on their smartphones?

Not my experience. Everyone I had contact with assumed I had WA, it wasn't
even a question.

What's so special about taxis that precludes from having access to WA? That
sounds like nonsense to me.

> Skype would be much more helpful.

lol

[VanguardLH]

https://www.phonetravelwiz.com/vodafone-italy-review/
Mentions the bands that the phone must support for Vodafone Italy.

But the data quota is limited, like 10 to 100 GB - which is a lot if you
don't generate high bandwidth traffic, like watching videos.

Regarding maps (should the OP want some for Italy, or elsewhere) ...

I don't know how fast an interactive (on-demand) map app would eat data
quota, but you could get a map app that uses offline map databases, like
Here [WeGo] (https://play.google.com/store/search?q=here%20we%20go,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_WeGo). Instead of downloading every
map of every country, you can download maps for just the country,
region, state, or city you plan on visiting. Obviously you install the
app and download them before your trip since you'll likely have better
quota or unlimited for cellular data, or can use a wifi connect, like at
home, to get Internet access. I have mine set to download only when my
phone has a wifi connection. For Italy, it's 1.3 GB for all of Italy,
but you can download just a region which range from 96MB to 358MB. I
could store the maps for just my home state (422MB), and another to
where I vacation (534MB), or all states in the USA (9GB). I chose to
download maps for all of USA, Canada, and Mexico (11GB total). I store
the maps on the 128GB SD card.

In the past, you could pick several maps to get downloads, but now they
only let you download one at a time, so you have to wait until download
completion of a map before you can download another. Has an option to
work with Android Auto. You can create a Here WeGo account for more
features (save favorites under Collections, create shortcuts, sync with
Here WeGo Web), but I don't need those, so I didn't create an account.

Here WeGo doesn't have all the features of Google Maps, like showing
POIs (Points of Interest), but you can download far larger maps than
what Google Maps will allow, and POIs disappear in offline maps for
Google Maps, anyway.

[Chris]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
> Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
>
>> Am 14.06.23 um 08:44 schrieb Chris:
>>> Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>>>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>>>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>>>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>>>
>>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>>>
>>> What's your most likely use case? Calling local numbers in italy or calling
>>> US numbers? If the former, use whatsapp as pretty much ask italians use it.
>>
>> Nonsense. How do you call a taxi with such a kindergarten-tool that
>> less than 60% of the Italian smartphone users have on their
>> smartphones?
>
> Wondering where you got that statistic. According to online sources,
> there are 59.11 million Italians. According to WhatsApp stats, there
> are 35.5 million users. Comes to 60.1%. Geez, you were spot on.

Except the 59m Italians includes many people without smartphones including
the very young and very old plus others who don't do smartphones. Of
smartphones the percentage will be higher with WA.

98% here:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1311590/top-messaging-platform-usage-italy/

96%
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/whatsapp-users-by-country

<87% but similar absolute numbers as above
https://www.verint.com/blog/what-countries-are-the-biggest-whatsapp-users/

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 14.06.23 um 15:18 schrieb VanguardLH:

You do not believe that I read such lengthy nonsense, do you?

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 14.06.23 um 16:41 schrieb Chris:

Total nonsense.
We had this discussion some time ago concerning Spain.
I'm a great fan of Sir Winston Churchill!

[Ken Blake]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 18:04:34 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 6/13/2023 7:39 AM, Dave Royal wrote:
>> On 13 Jun 2023 06:45:30 -0700 Ken Blake wrote:
>>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>>
>> What problems do you expect using your Mint service in Rome?
>
>I suspect it's because Mint doesn't offer any domestic or international
>roaming.

They do. See the message where I said I bought some.

[Ken Blake]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 12:33:09 -0800, RonTheGuy <r...@null.invalid>
wrote:

>On Jun 13, 2023, Frank Slootweg wrote
>(in article<news:u6anfd...@ID-201911.user.individual.net>):
>
>> I read it as *free* calls to anywhere in the US and *cheap* (2ct/min)
>> calls in Europ
>
>Yes. GV is free calls to anywhere in the USA & cheap calls overseas.
>https://toomanyadapters.com/google-voice-travel/


OK, thanks to both of you. I'll look into it later.


>
>That's why it's the number one choice of expats, I'm told.
>https://www.instarem.com/blog/google-voice-expat/
>
>When I call people in Europe, it costs me about 2 cents a minute.
>
>Mostly I call France and the UK but Italy should be the same.
>https://www.openphone.com/blog/google-voice-international-calls/
>
>Lots of people say that Google Voice is the best option abroad.
>https://mafrenchlife.com/google-voice-abroad/
>
>Ron, the humblest guy in town.

[Ken Blake]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 16:01:14 -0500, VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:

>Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>
>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>
>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>

>https://www.mintmobile.com/features/international-roaming/
>(looks like you already checked this out)
>
>If you're only going to make calls to friends and family, maybe you
>could convince them to get the same chat client (WhatsApp, WeChat, mIRC,
>Skype, etc).

No, short of an emergency like my being in a hospital and missing my
return flight, I don't expect to call friends of family at all. We can
correspond for anything else by e-mail, if needed (my hotel provides
wi-fi).

I mostly wanted the ability to call places in Rome, if need be--mostly
place like Restaurants to reserve, or taxi services to get a taxi (but
I just found the program itTaxi which I can use if I have wi-fi where
I am).

I wouldn't be surprised if I never need to make a call while I'm
there. It's just "just in case."


> Wherever or however you get an Internet connection, like a
>wifi connect to your smartphone, you could use the chat client. If you
>can't get a wifi connect on your phone for Internet access, you need a
>cellular carrier to use their data service.
>
>Google Voice is also usable from their web site, or using the GV app on
>your smartphone, but you'll need Internet access (wifi, cellular data),
>and likely a headset for speakers and microphone unless you're toting
>around your own computer with those. Wherever you are staying might
>offer Internet service (at a cost, or included in the room rate).

Yes, it's included. I think it is in almost all Roman hotels and
apartments.

[Ken Blake]

Thanks very much. I'll do that.

[Ken Blake]

On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 18:17:46 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 6/13/2023 6:45 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>
>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>
>BTW, if you're on your own

Yes.

>and not on a group tour (hopefully) then

I have no interest in a tour of Rome. I know Rome very well, having
been there 25 times or so before.

>you'll end up using quite a bit of data.

No, I won't. I'll use very little--just for e-mail, weather reports
and restaurants. And just in the hotel, where Wi-Fi is provided.

>The Moovit app is great for
>Italy.

I'm staying just in Rome, and will walk almost everywhere I go.

>Also the Google Translate App with Lens is amazing in translating
>things like menus.

I'm not fluent in Italian, but I know a fair amount. And I'll study up
again before I go.

What I'm best at is menus and wine lists. I have no problems reading
either.

>I used around 500MB per day in Italy and sometimes I
>had to pay another €1 for 500MB more.
>
>We were on our own for much of the trip though for four days we were
>visiting my city's sister city and we were taken around in a bus. Even
>then I was using a lot of data because some others on the trip were
>hot-spotting in because they had slow T-Mobile international roaming
>data (included by mostly unusable).
>
>With the card already in the phone when we landed in Milan we had
>service right away which was helpful in navigating to our AirBNB using
>the train from the airport. I would do the same again even though buying
>a SIM in advance is not the least expensive way to go. Just don't buy a
>SIM in the airport (or change money there!).

Yes I know.

>Note that Apple Pay and Google Pay are widely used in Italy. I used very
>little cash when I was there. Even the pay toilets took Apple Pay and
>Google Pay.

I'm not interested. I use neither, and pay for almost everything with
a credit card.

I don't use pay toilets. If I need a toilet, I walk into a bar, have a
cup of caffé, and use their toilet.

[sms]

You can get by with a data-only SIM card by using an app that allows
calls to regular phones, i.e. Skype-Out, Google Voice, LocalPhone, etc.
though you'll be paying for an international call if you're in Italy.

The only calls I ever had to make in Italy, outside of WhatsApp, were
calls to hotels to arrange a pick-up from the airport. They said to call
when we arrived and they had no other way of contacting them. So an
occasional call from a U.S. VOIP number to a number in Italy is not a
big deal.

It was nice to have an actual localish phone number for _receiving_
calls. However you can also rent an EU number for incoming calls if you
have a data-only SIM. It would cost $8 for Italy ($5 set up and $3 for a
month), see <https://www.localphone.com/prices/incoming_numbers>.

A big issue with the iPhone 14 that is sold in the U.S. is that there is
no longer a SIM card slot. This is a tremendous pain in the butt for
traveling since many countries, even those that have eSIMs available for
residents, don't have them available for tourists.

Actually, the card I recommended earlier appears to not include voice
and SMS outside of Spain, so forget that earlier advice.

Data-only cards are a lot easier for the carriers since there is no
identity verification necessary.

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 08:51:53 +0200, Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch>
wrote:

I don't need to be reachable any way but by e-mail.

[Incubus]

On 2023-06-14, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> A big issue with the iPhone 14 that is sold in the U.S. is that there is
> no longer a SIM card slot. This is a tremendous pain in the butt for
> traveling since many countries, even those that have eSIMs available for
> residents, don't have them available for tourists.

Why is it, do you think, Apple removed the SIM slot?

Normally Apple's main objective is to control what you can do.
Is that why Apple removed it?

Or is there some benefit a phone without a SIM has over an exact same phone
with the same eSIM but which also has a slot for a SIM for when you want?

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-06-14 22:01, sms wrote:

...

> A big issue with the iPhone 14 that is sold in the U.S. is that there is
> no longer a SIM card slot. This is a tremendous pain in the butt for
> traveling since many countries, even those that have eSIMs available for
> residents, don't have them available for tourists.

The recommended procedure then is to move the USA provider to an eSIM
before leaving, and free the SIM slot.

>
> Actually, the card I recommended earlier appears to not include voice
> and SMS outside of Spain, so forget that earlier advice.
>
> Data-only cards are a lot easier for the carriers since there is no
> identity verification necessary.

Ah! Curious.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[sms]

On 6/14/2023 9:53 AM, Ken Blake wrote:

<snip>

> They do. See the message where I said I bought some.

Oh wow, I stand corrected.

But $200/GB for data, ouch!

You could convert your Pixel 4a to eSIM using
<https://esim.me/esim-for-my-Google/esim-for-Google-Pixel-4a/#207161-manage_only_on_google_pixel_4a-up_to_2_esim_profiles>
then load the Mint eSIM via a QR code (not the Mint app) and then buy a
data-only eSIM for Europe, i.e.
<https://mobimatter.com/travel-esim/esimgo-best-europe-20-gb-esim>.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

[Nick Agostini]

On 2023-06-14, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> Actually, the card I recommended earlier appears to not include voice
> and SMS outside of Spain, so forget that earlier advice.

Assuming the OP's phone is carrier unlocked, of the big three USA carriers,
at least one has a no-contract service which has free world wide roaming.

> Data-only cards are a lot easier for the carriers since there is no
> identity verification necessary.

The OP could get a one-month service with free roaming with all the bells &
whistles for International calling & data - then drop it upon returning.

[sms]

On 6/14/2023 1:44 PM, Nick Agostini wrote:
> On 2023-06-14, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>> Actually, the card I recommended earlier appears to not include voice
>> and SMS outside of Spain, so forget that earlier advice.
>
>
> Assuming the OP's phone is carrier unlocked, of the big three USA carriers,
> at least one has a no-contract service which has free world wide roaming.

He is not with the big three U.S. carriers.

Worldwide roaming is kind-of, but not really, included on some T-Mobile
plans. SMS is free, voice calls are charged at 25¢/minute (both outgoing
and incoming), and very low-speed data is included. High speed data
costs extra (a lot extra!).

> The OP could get a one-month service with free roaming with all the bells &
> whistles for International calling & data - then drop it upon returning.

That is true. But to buy it in the U.S. would cost at least $50.

[sms]

On 6/14/2023 1:37 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-06-14 22:01, sms wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> A big issue with the iPhone 14 that is sold in the U.S. is that there
>> is no longer a SIM card slot. This is a tremendous pain in the butt
>> for traveling since many countries, even those that have eSIMs
>> available for residents, don't have them available for tourists.
>
> The recommended procedure then is to move the USA provider to an eSIM
> before leaving, and free the SIM slot.

There is no SIM slot on the iPhone 14 sold in the U.S.. Every other
country has a SIM slot plus eSIM (except China which has two physical
SIM slots).

[sms]

The U.S. carriers want subscribers to use international roaming because
it's very expensive. It's the same reason why Android devices sold in
the U.S. often have only one SIM slot while the same model sold in
Europe and Asia have two physical SIM slots.

You do get two eSIM "slots" on the U.S. iPhone 14.

[The Real Bev]

On 6/14/23 4:33 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> I had visitors last year in Spain, and they bought a prepaid Vodafone
> card I did not know about. I don't remember the details, but maybe 50€,
> unlimited data, unlimited calls, for a month.
>
> They had to call their flight company office at the other side of the
> Atlantic, several very long phone calls, which to me would have been
> expensive, were free to them.
>
> They found the card while walking the side streets of Barcelona, at a
> small shop that sold cards mostly to immigrants and foreigners (it
> helped that my visitors speak Spanish) :-D
>
> I was trying to find a suitable card on Internet, but my cousin beat me
> to it just strolling and getting lost on the streets :-D
>
> For paper work, I think they needed some ID like a driving license or
> passport.
>
> I suppose Italy is similar, but I do not know.

The guy who replaced my phone battery also dealt in a number of cell
services that I'd never heard of. He said I had the cheapest one
already ($10/year) but if I ever decided to switch he had lots of good
ones to choose from. Presumably small cellphone shops which offer cheap
service are common.

--
Cheers,Bev
aibohphobia - fear of palindromes

[Ken Blake]

On Wed, 14 Jun 2023 14:01:47 -0700, sms <scharf...@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 6/14/2023 1:33 PM, Incubus wrote:
>> On 2023-06-14, sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> A big issue with the iPhone 14 that is sold in the U.S. is that there
>>> is no longer a SIM card slot. This is a tremendous pain in the butt
>>> for traveling since many countries, even those that have eSIMs
>>> available for residents, don't have them available for tourists.
>>
>> Why is it, do you think, Apple removed the SIM slot?
>>
>> Normally Apple's main objective is to control what you can do.
>> Is that why Apple removed it?
>>
>> Or is there some benefit a phone without a SIM has over an exact same phone
>> with the same eSIM but which also has a slot for a SIM for when you want?
>
>The U.S. carriers want subscribers to use international roaming because
>it's very expensive. It's the same reason why Android devices sold in
>the U.S. often have only one SIM slot while the same model sold in
>Europe and Asia have two physical SIM slots.
>
>You do get two eSIM "slots" on the U.S. iPhone 14.

...and in every Pixel starting with the 4a

[sms]

On 6/14/2023 2:50 PM, The Real Bev wrote:

<snip>

> The guy who replaced my phone battery also dealt in a number of cell
> services that I'd never heard of.  He said I had the cheapest one
> already ($10/year) but if I ever decided to switch he had lots of good
> ones to choose from.  Presumably small cellphone shops which offer cheap
> service are common.

I walked by a small cell shop, attached to a Chinese supermarket last
night. They had signs in the window promoting some of those lesser known
MVNO plans. The reality is that while they are less expensive than
postpaid on AT&T, T-Mobile, or Verizon , they are no bargain.

One was Lyca (T-Mobile in the U.S.): $19/2GB, $29/6GB, $33 for 9GB. One
was Ultra (T-Mobile): $19/2GB. They don't offer the really good deals,
on good networks (AT&T or Verizon) like MobileX, Visible, or U.S.
Mobile, because none of these sell through retail stores.

It's the same with Mint, which has very poor U.S. coverage and is more
expensive than MVNOs that use AT&T or Verizon. But they do a huge amount
of advertising that appeals to those subscribers that don't do much
research. $15/month for 5GB of data is not some amazing deal.

[VanguardLH]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> On 6/14/2023 2:50 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> The guy who replaced my phone battery also dealt in a number of cell
>> services that I'd never heard of.  He said I had the cheapest one
>> already ($10/year) but if I ever decided to switch he had lots of good
>> ones to choose from.  Presumably small cellphone shops which offer cheap
>> service are common.
>
> I walked by a small cell shop, attached to a Chinese supermarket last
> night. They had signs in the window promoting some of those lesser known
> MVNO plans. The reality is that while they are less expensive than
> postpaid on AT&T, T-Mobile, or Verizon , they are no bargain.
>
> One was Lyca (T-Mobile in the U.S.): $19/2GB, $29/6GB, $33 for 9GB. One
> was Ultra (T-Mobile): $19/2GB. They don't offer the really good deals,
> on good networks (AT&T or Verizon) like MobileX, Visible, or U.S.
> Mobile, because none of these sell through retail stores.
>
> It's the same with Mint, which has very poor U.S. coverage and is more
> expensive than MVNOs that use AT&T or Verizon. But they do a huge amount
> of advertising that appeals to those subscribers that don't do much
> research. $15/month for 5GB of data is not some amazing deal.

Doesn't look like the OP is concerned by cellular data quotas. He just
wants to make phone calls (to mobile or landlines). Of the plans you
mentioned, how many call minutes are included, or are they unlimited for
calls?

[VanguardLH]

[VanguardLH]

Your lack of attention span or initiative is not my fault. So, um, your
one-liners are really supposed to convery more information. Uh huh.

[VanguardLH]

Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
>> Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 14.06.23 um 08:44 schrieb Chris:
>>>> Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>>>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>>>>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>>>>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>>>>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>>>>
>>>> What's your most likely use case? Calling local numbers in italy or calling
>>>> US numbers? If the former, use whatsapp as pretty much ask italians use it.
>>>
>>> Nonsense. How do you call a taxi with such a kindergarten-tool that
>>> less than 60% of the Italian smartphone users have on their
>>> smartphones?
>>
>> Wondering where you got that statistic. According to online sources,
>> there are 59.11 million Italians. According to WhatsApp stats, there
>> are 35.5 million users. Comes to 60.1%. Geez, you were spot on.
>
> Except the 59m Italians includes many people without smartphones including
> the very young and very old plus others who don't do smartphones. Of
> smartphones the percentage will be higher with WA.

The statistic was about penetration of smartphones into the population,
so that includes very young, very old, hospitalized population, and
everyone that does and doesn't use a smartphone.

> 98% here:
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1311590/top-messaging-platform-usage-italy/

Uh huh, 98% of those that already have a smartphone. That's not the
stat that Lorenze or I cited. You're looking at the wrong population
for determining penetration into a population. Skewed stats.

> 96%
> https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/whatsapp-users-by-country

Doesn't identify market penetration in a population, just how many in a
country. For those stats, penetration is 100% of the restricted
population.

> <87% but similar absolute numbers as above
> https://www.verint.com/blog/what-countries-are-the-biggest-whatsapp-users/

Again, wrong stats. Shows penetration of WhatsApp app into a population
of a subset of smartphone users: those that have smartphones AND
participate in social media communication venues.

P.S. No idea why my first submit was absent of my reply content. Here
it is again.

[The Real Bev]

And supposedly one in the Pixel 2.

I'd be willing to spend $20 for 20 GB if they didn't die. I can see why
nobody would sell immortal data, but I don't have to like it.

--
Cheers, Bev
You are more likely to catch swine flu from a
police officer than from an actual pig.

[Dave Royal]

On 14 Jun 2023 13:01:23 -0700 sms wrote:
>
>Data-only cards are a lot easier for the carriers since there is no
>identity verification necessary.

Really? That's interesting. Any idea why not?

I had been buying PAYG SIMs around Europe for some years before the
requirement for foreigners to present ID was introduced. It was mainly the
result of the Madrid train bombings - though phones had been used to set
off bombs before that. It was a PITA if, like me, you were on a boat and
had no address. Pure security theatre.



--
(Remove numerics from email address)

[VanguardLH]

Dave Royal <da...@dave123royal.com> wrote:

> sms wrote:
>
>> Data-only cards are a lot easier for the carriers since there is no
>> identity verification necessary.
>
> Really? That's interesting. Any idea why not?
>
> I had been buying PAYG SIMs around Europe for some years before the
> requirement for foreigners to present ID was introduced. It was
> mainly the result of the Madrid train bombings - though phones had
> been used to set off bombs before that. It was a PITA if, like me,
> you were on a boat and had no address. Pure security theatre.

https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vpn-privacy/sim-card-registration-laws/

The map shows Italy is one of those countries mandating SIM
registration.

I don't know if those countries are mandating registration of a
data-only service, just calls, or both (i.e., they don't care how the
SIM is used, just that the SIM itself requires registration, like buying
handguns). Luckily I don't live there (an accident of birth, not my
selection before born), and I don't travel there.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 14.06.23 um 03:06 schrieb sms:
> On 6/13/2023 2:38 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> The answer is that you have to ask your provider, what is the cost for
>> having data on the destination country. If this is expensive, you need a
>> local SIM on the destination (or from another EU country).
>
> No need to ask, Mint does not have any domestic or international roaming.

Why are you still telling lies?
You were corrected by at least two regulars.


--
De gustibus non est disputandum

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-06-14 22:59, sms wrote:
> On 6/14/2023 1:37 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-06-14 22:01, sms wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> A big issue with the iPhone 14 that is sold in the U.S. is that there
>>> is no longer a SIM card slot. This is a tremendous pain in the butt
>>> for traveling since many countries, even those that have eSIMs
>>> available for residents, don't have them available for tourists.
>>
>> The recommended procedure then is to move the USA provider to an eSIM
>> before leaving, and free the SIM slot.
>
> There is no SIM slot on the iPhone 14 sold in the U.S.. Every other
> country has a SIM slot plus eSIM (except China which has two physical
> SIM slots).
>

Oh. Plain dumb. Or smart, for their business.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-06-14 16:16, VanguardLH wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>

>> On 2023-06-14 03:03, sms wrote:

>>> On 6/13/2023 6:45 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
>>>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>>>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>>>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>>>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>>>
>>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>>>

>>> I was in Italy pre-pandemic and pre-BREXIT and I used a UK Vodafone SIM
>>> card that was a good deal, €1 per 500MB plus calling and texting in the
>>> EU and EEA. I activated it in the U.S.. But Vodafone UK wrecked that
>>> plan after BREXIT.
>>

>> I had visitors last year in Spain, and they bought a prepaid Vodafone
>> card I did not know about. I don't remember the details, but maybe 50€,
>> unlimited data, unlimited calls, for a month.
>>
>> They had to call their flight company office at the other side of the
>> Atlantic, several very long phone calls, which to me would have been
>> expensive, were free to them.
>>
>> They found the card while walking the side streets of Barcelona, at a
>> small shop that sold cards mostly to immigrants and foreigners (it
>> helped that my visitors speak Spanish) :-D
>>
>> I was trying to find a suitable card on Internet, but my cousin beat me
>> to it just strolling and getting lost on the streets :-D
>>
>> For paper work, I think they needed some ID like a driving license or
>> passport.
>>
>> I suppose Italy is similar, but I do not know.
>

> https://www.phonetravelwiz.com/vodafone-italy-review/
> Mentions the bands that the phone must support for Vodafone Italy.
>
> But the data quota is limited, like 10 to 100 GB - which is a lot if you
> don't generate high bandwidth traffic, like watching videos.

It might have been 100 GB here, too, I have forgotten the details.

>
> Regarding maps (should the OP want some for Italy, or elsewhere) ...
>
> I don't know how fast an interactive (on-demand) map app would eat data
> quota, but you could get a map app that uses offline map databases, like
> Here [WeGo] (https://play.google.com/store/search?q=here%20we%20go,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_WeGo).

Or OSMand.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[mike]

On 15-06-2023 02:27 sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

>> Assuming the OP's phone is carrier unlocked, of the big three USA carriers,
>> at least one has a no-contract service which has free world wide roaming.
>
> He is not with the big three U.S. carriers.
>
> Worldwide roaming is kind-of, but not really, included on some T-Mobile

> plans. SMS is free, voice calls are charged at 25c/minute (both outgoing

> and incoming), and very low-speed data is included. High speed data
> costs extra (a lot extra!).

I'm on one of those carriers in the USA where in France the free roaming
works fine in most areas of the cities. You get unlimited texting & MMS and
you're correct the voice calls (both ways) are a quarter a minute.

The data speeds were fine for what I used them for. I didn't try streaming.

>
>> The OP could get a one-month service with free roaming with all the bells &
>> whistles for International calling & data - then drop it upon returning.
>
> That is true. But to buy it in the U.S. would cost at least $50.

Yes. It would cost the OP about that much on T-Mobile. But no more.

[sms]

On 6/14/2023 9:43 PM, The Real Bev wrote:

<snip>

> I'd be willing to spend $20 for 20 GB if they didn't die.  I can see why
> nobody would sell immortal data, but I don't have to like it.

You can buy immortal data but not for $1/GB. That's about what MVNOs pay
the carriers for data.

[sms]

You just stated the reason. Criminals using burner phones with prepaid
SIM cards, with a phone number, purchased without any ID. With data only
there's no such concern.

[The Real Bev]

On 6/15/23 10:01 AM, sms wrote:
> On 6/14/2023 9:43 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I'd be willing to spend $20 for 20 GB if they didn't die.  I can see why
>> nobody would sell immortal data, but I don't have to like it.
>
> You can buy immortal data but not for $1/GB. That's about what MVNOs pay
> the carriers for data.

OK, I might have been overly cheap. Who DOES sell immortal data?

--
Cheers, Bev
"There are only two reasons to sit in the back row of an
airplane: Either you have diarrhoea, or you're anxious to
meet people who do." -- Rich Jeni

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-06-14 19:10, Ken Blake wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Jun 2023 16:01:14 -0500, VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:

>
>> Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I live in the USA, but I'll be on vacation in Rome for two weeks this
>>> coming November. My provider is Mint (using T-Mobile service). I don't
>>> expect to make or receive any phone calls while I'm there, but just in
>>> case I need to, I'd like to have the ability to do it on my Pixel 4a.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions as to what I can do at a low price?
>>

>> https://www.mintmobile.com/features/international-roaming/
>> (looks like you already checked this out)
>>
>> If you're only going to make calls to friends and family, maybe you
>> could convince them to get the same chat client (WhatsApp, WeChat, mIRC,
>> Skype, etc).
>
> No, short of an emergency like my being in a hospital and missing my
> return flight, I don't expect to call friends of family at all. We can
> correspond for anything else by e-mail, if needed (my hotel provides
> wi-fi).

My visitors on the past summer had their return flights cancelled. They
had to phone the German company on USA or Canada to get another flight
back, an hour long phone call.

Yes, of course they tried the local office of the same company, but got
an automatic speech saying to use internet, which was a no go, I don't
remember why.

You never know.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[sms]

On 6/15/2023 10:15 AM, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 6/15/23 10:01 AM, sms wrote:
>> On 6/14/2023 9:43 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I'd be willing to spend $20 for 20 GB if they didn't die.  I can see
>>> why nobody would sell immortal data, but I don't have to like it.
>>
>> You can buy immortal data but not for $1/GB. That's about what MVNOs pay
>> the carriers for data.
>
> OK, I might have been overly cheap.  Who DOES sell immortal data?

Keepgo but you have to add a small amount of money each year. The data
is very expensive.

In the U.S., the best low-cost option for data appears to be the new
Verizon MVNO MobileX which charges $2.10/GB and if you don't use the
whole GB the remaining rolls over. But it's $1.99/month to keep a line
active. Plus taxes and fees.

[VanguardLH]

I'm retracting my recommendation of Here WeGo. I hadn't used it for a
long time, uninstalled it, and reinstalled due to this discussion. It
works except for one major glitch: it shows my current location as 11
miles away. Google Maps and Sygic show me where I am, so GPS is
working. I have my phone set to high accuracy: GPS + wifi + mobile
networks). Since I would be using maps for routing to places from
wherever I am at the time, not showing my correct current location is a
must. I sent feedback using the app, and gave an e-mail alias for them
to respond which they did with:

- Reinstall the app. I *just* installed it. It is a new install.
- Login in offline mode. I didn't create an account, and won't create
one. Once loaded, I changed the app to offline mode although offline
maps is a backup mode of operation versus online that I would prefer.
Didn't help. The current location was still 11 miles away. They said
to toggle the offline mode. When I went back to online mode, the
current location was where I was. So that worked, but seems a bug in
their app.
-

Map downloads are easier to select than in Sygic, especially for the US.
There is no voice input to define a destination. You have to type it in
which is not something I'll do while driving, and requires free hands (I
don't thumb type, especially due to the large size of the phone).

I'll have to do some more testing to see if I keep Here WeGo. The Sygic
map app seems good, but map downloads are extremely slow, and the free
version gets updates only 3 times per year, takes longer to load the
app, and they plaster a gold crown icon atop the map to promote buying
their premium version. I've also installed the Maps.Me app and may try
OsmAnd (OpenStreet Maps); however, while they get some map data from
known sources, much of it, including updates, is crowd sourced (users of
the app update the maps). I don't trust the public to be accurate.

[Patron Saint]

On Thu, 15 Jun 2023 14:29:14 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
> I'm retracting my recommendation of Here WeGo.

You may wish to try MapFactor Navigator.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapfactor.navigator

MapFactor Navigator uses professional maps (not OSM maps).
https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.osmand.plus/

In looking up the URL I noticed the free Navigator now has ads.
That's too bad. But the older versions definitely didn't have ads.

[VanguardLH]

Patron Saint <pat...@saint.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>

>> I'm retracting my recommendation of Here WeGo. ...

>
> You may wish to try MapFactor Navigator.
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mapfactor.navigator
>
> MapFactor Navigator uses professional maps (not OSM maps).
> https://f-droid.org/en/packages/net.osmand.plus/
>
> In looking up the URL I noticed the free Navigator now has ads.
> That's too bad. But the older versions definitely didn't have ads.

Alas, they have got to an ad-ridden app while trying to monetize their
product, like throttling it down to a max of 7 offline maps in the free
version. Maps.Me did the same thing: ads, and limit of 10 offline maps.

https://play.google.com/store/search?q=mapfactor
"GPS Navigation - offline maps from OSM and Tom Tom."

https://navigatorfree.mapfactor.com/en/
"Based on free offline maps from OpenStreetMaps project, ..."

So, they *do* use crowd-sourced OpenStreet Maps map data. While some
map data comes from "freely licensed geodata sources", I've not seen a
delineated list of what are those non-contributor sources.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/about

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-06-16 08:13, VanguardLH wrote:
> Patron Saint <pat...@saint.com> wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH wrote:

...

> Alas, they have got to an ad-ridden app while trying to monetize their
> product, like throttling it down to a max of 7 offline maps in the free
> version. Maps.Me did the same thing: ads, and limit of 10 offline maps.
>
> https://play.google.com/store/search?q=mapfactor
> "GPS Navigation - offline maps from OSM and Tom Tom."

Notice that OSM and TomTom reached an agreement. They may be sharing the
map now.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Patron Saint]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 01:13:16 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
>> In looking up the URL I noticed the free Navigator now has ads.
>> That's too bad. But the older versions definitely didn't have ads.
>
> Alas, they have got to an ad-ridden app while trying to monetize their
> product, like throttling it down to a max of 7 offline maps in the free
> version. Maps.Me did the same thing: ads, and limit of 10 offline maps.

I'm sorry about that. I used it years ago and it definitely did NOT have
ads but that's why you never want to let an app update on its own accord.

It was released in 2012 where I used it for years when I didn't have data.

> https://play.google.com/store/search?q=mapfactor
> "GPS Navigation - offline maps from OSM and Tom Tom."

At the time I used it, I remember they had a variety of map sources for us.
As I recall, the TomTom maps were free, and they had Copilot's maps too.

> https://navigatorfree.mapfactor.com/en/
> "Based on free offline maps from OpenStreetMaps project, ..."

I just checked on Google Play & it seems to have been bought out maybe?

The Google Play description says this for the free version.
"MapFactor Navigator is a free GPS navigation app with free offline maps
from OpenStreetMaps"

But the online description says this for the professional version.
"Navigator also supports professional TomTom maps, which offer better and
more accurate map coverage"
https://navigatorfree.mapfactor.com/en/maps/

> So, they *do* use crowd-sourced OpenStreet Maps map data. While some
> map data comes from "freely licensed geodata sources", I've not seen a
> delineated list of what are those non-contributor sources.

The way I used to be able to tell OSM maps is I knew of an error in them.
But I don't have MapFactor Navigator currently installed so I can't look.

> https://www.openstreetmap.org/about

I think this is bad news as TomTom seems to be in bed with OSM nowadays.
https://www.tomtom.com/newsroom/news/tomtom-joins-the-openstreetmap-foundation/

I take back my recommendation for MapFactor Navigator as it seems to have
gone to hell since I used it in the days when I didn't have cellular data.

[Patron Saint]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 11:24:02 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> Notice that OSM and TomTom reached an agreement.
> They may be sharing the map now.

Thank you for looking that up because I was unaware of the OSM conjoining.

I didn't know this since I last used MapFactor Navigator when I didn't have
cellular data and I had found it more accurate than the OSM maps were.

It looks like the founder of OSM has a key position with the TomTom execs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TomTom
Where I was rather surprised to see this unrelated line in that wiki.
"In April 2011, TomTom apologized for supplying driving data collected from
customers to police to use in catching speeding motorists."

Wow. That's bad.

Anyway, looks like TomTom has been editing OSM maps since only 2021.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TomTom

That same wiki says that the conjoined maps will be released in 2023.
"TomTom announced that its new TomTom Map will use OSM data when it is
released, sometime in 2023"

I'm going to retract my recommendation for MapFactor Navigator since it
won't seem to have any advantages over the free OSMAnd+ which has no ads.

[VanguardLH]

NOTE: Subject changed since this subthread has focused on map apps (due
to my suggestion to the OP) which is not the topic of the original
thread.

Patron Saint <pat...@saint.com> wrote:

> I'm going to retract my recommendation for MapFactor Navigator since it
> won't seem to have any advantages over the free OSMAnd+ which has no ads.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus

Yep, free unless you want the Plus features ($29.99 yearly
*subscriptionware*), which are:

OsmAnd Cloud (backup and restore)
Cross-platform
Hourly map updates
Weather plug-in
Elevation widget
Customize route line
External sensors support (ANT+, Bluetooth)
Online elevation profile

Hmm, since Bluetooth is mentioned as a paid Plus feature, will the free
version still connect via Bluetooth for audio output of driving
instructions to the car's stereo?

This is an Android app. Maybe cross-platform means they have an iOS
app, too. Went to their web site (http://osmand.net/) to see which
platforms for which they have an app. Android and iOS is all I found.
No UWP app for Windows. For desktops (Windows or Linux), guess you'll
have to use a web browser. While Google Maps has a web site, and so
does Waze (it has problems with its scrollable listboxes), I don't know
of an OsmAnd web site to do mapping. Looks like you'll have to use the
OpenStreet Maps web site (https://www.openstreetmap.org). To me, the
claim of "cross-platform support" means more than just 2 platforms both
of which are mobile platforms.

Hourly updates means there will be a few updates, but probably not in
your area.

Weather plug-in. I need another weather app?

For current elevation, I don't need another widget. I'm not into
cluttering my screens with widgets. I just use the Positional app
(https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.trewartha.positional)
which includes a compass (although I have SimplyWerx app for compassing)
and dawn/dusk info. Don't need to pay to get elevation.

For the Plus version, not enough bang-for-the-buck, to me, especially
for a $30/year subscription. However, there is in "Install" button on
the app's page, just a "$29.99 Buy" button, but the page also says
"In-app purchases". So, you pay for it, and it still had ads?

Doesn't look like your recommendation of OsmAnd+ is free as you claim.
Maybe what you have is their free version (without the plus sign) at
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand which also
notes "in-app purchases". I don't recall ever seeing an add in Google
Maps, but then they make money from the telemetry they collect.

"Data is encrypted in transit"
What data? They don't need to encrypt their map data that I download
since anyone can access that data, plus OSM even provides an API to
retrieve their map data. The payware Plus version has the cloud
storage, so maybe that's the user data that gets encrypted, but just
don't see what user data is generated or stored by this app. Does this
app save waypoints?

Supposedly this, and other, map app will alert you when you are
exceeding the speed limit, and may show the speed limit in the display
for the street you are on. Okay, but I've yet to see that work when I
trialed a bunch of map apps a while ago (probably over a year). That
makes me wonder just how dense is their crowd sourcing their map data.
Waze talks about showing other nearby Waze drivers, but that really
doesn't give stats on density of participating community members in your
area. I have not found stats on density of OSM contributors by city or
region. I live in a metro of 3.7 million, so you'd think there are some
OSM contributors here, but I'm leery when I don't see speed limits
indicating the contributor density here is, at best, sparse. I can find
articles, like:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Number-of-OpenStreetMap-OSM-Contributors-per-Population-Area-ratio-Jan-2007-Sept_fig2_272646359

but that's over a decade old, and only gathered stats on a few
locations. Unless the *active* crowd-sourcing community is dense in my
area, I don't see the point of using this mapping service. I found:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats

but, again, that is worthless for determining the density of active
contributors in any particular area. If there are not many contributors
in the area you want mapped, accuracy will be poor as well as volume and
interval of updates.

[Frank Slootweg]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.lh> wrote:
> Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:

[...]

> > Skype would be much more helpful. Skype can reach all phone numbers
> > around the globe. But it does not solve the issue of mobile connections.
>
> You have to buy Skype-Out minutes. Then your Skype account can not only
> connect to other Skype users (which is free), but also to any type of
> phones (landline, mobile), but mobile coverage is more limited. They
> used be called Skype-In and Skype-Out minutes, but it looks like they've
> been merged and just called Skype Minutes.

For occasional (or no) use, i.e. like the OP (Ken Blake), you don't
have to buy Skype Minutes, you can buy Skype Credit [1].

Skype Credit starts as low as EUR 5 (I've EUR 10), can be set to top-up
automatically and never expires.

You can call any number anywhere for quite reasonable rates. For
example Italy (i.e. Ken's case) is 2.4 cts/min for landline and 10.4
cts/min for mobile (for NL users, probably similar for US users).

As said elsewhere, you of course need an Internet connection - i.e.
Wi-Fi or mobile data - to use Skype.

I use it as a backup or/and for lengthly or/and overseas calls, for
example when visiting Australia or the US.

[1]
'Call phones and send SMS anywhere in the world at affordable prices
with Skype Credit'
<https://www.skype.com/en/credit>

[...]

[sms]

On 6/16/2023 10:36 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:

<snip>

> For occasional (or no) use, i.e. like the OP (Ken Blake), you don't
> have to buy Skype Minutes, you can buy Skype Credit [1].
>
> Skype Credit starts as low as EUR 5 (I've EUR 10), can be set to top-up
> automatically and never expires.

Localphone to Italy:
Landlines: 0.7¢
Mobiles: 26¢
Incoming Italian number: $3/month plus $5 setup fee. Renting a UK
number is less, 99¢ plus 99¢ setup fee.

Google Voice to Italy
Landlines: 1¢
Mobile: 3-22¢
Incoming Italian number: Not available

Skype to Italy
Landlines: 2.3¢ plus 4.9¢ connection fee
Mobile: 10¢ plus 8.9¢ connection fee
Incoming Italian number: Not available

The reality is that to contact someone in Italy on their mobile phone
you're likely going to use WhatsApp. If you're calling a hotel,
restaurant, airline, etc., you'll be calling a landline.

If you expect to be receiving calls, then it's nice to not have someone
having to make an international call back to the U.S., to your Google
Voice number, by having a number in the country or region you're visiting.

But it's better to get a SIM card that is voice, SMS, and data, even
though the number of outgoing calls on these cards are limited due to
the "caller pays" system for mobile numbers in many countries.

[Frank Slootweg]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.lh> wrote:
> NOTE: Subject changed since this subthread has focused on map apps (due
> to my suggestion to the OP) which is not the topic of the original
> thread.
>
>
> Patron Saint <pat...@saint.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm going to retract my recommendation for MapFactor Navigator since it
> > won't seem to have any advantages over the free OSMAnd+ which has no ads.
>
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus
>
> Yep, free unless you want the Plus features ($29.99 yearly
> *subscriptionware*), which are:
>
> OsmAnd Cloud (backup and restore)
> Cross-platform
> Hourly map updates
> Weather plug-in
> Elevation widget
> Customize route line
> External sensors support (ANT+, Bluetooth)
> Online elevation profile

For some reason I can't scroll through the 'About this app' part at
the moment, but there are three 'versions':

- The really free - but limited - one:
'OsmAnd Maps & GPS Offline'
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand>
Note 'OsmAnd', not 'OsmAnd+'.

- The full(er) version 'OsmAnd+', which you *buy* for $29.99:
'OsmAnd+ Maps & GPS Offline'
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus>
I have this version (on (IIRC) a maximum of four devices at a time).

- The monthly subscription which you mention above.
You call that "the Plus features", but I don't think *they* call it
that, because the would be confusing with the purchased "+" version.
N.B. *In* the app it's called 'OsmAnd Pro', Pro not Plus and says
'From $2.99 / month', so I wonder if your '$29.99' is a typo.

> Hmm, since Bluetooth is mentioned as a paid Plus feature, will the free
> version still connect via Bluetooth for audio output of driving
> instructions to the car's stereo?

I think so, Bluetooth audio is just a device/Android function, not an
app function. Note that the subscription Bluetooth feature is for
"External *sensors*", not audio output.

> This is an Android app. Maybe cross-platform means they have an iOS
> app, too. Went to their web site (http://osmand.net/) to see which
> platforms for which they have an app. Android and iOS is all I found.
> No UWP app for Windows. For desktops (Windows or Linux), guess you'll
> have to use a web browser. While Google Maps has a web site, and so
> does Waze (it has problems with its scrollable listboxes), I don't know
> of an OsmAnd web site to do mapping. Looks like you'll have to use the
> OpenStreet Maps web site (https://www.openstreetmap.org). To me, the
> claim of "cross-platform support" means more than just 2 platforms both
> of which are mobile platforms.

It's (mainly) an *offline* *navigation* app, so it runs on devices,
which have a GPS, which is Android and iPhones (and probably some
iPads). So cross-platform is exactly that, cross-platform on mobile
devices. That's their market, like for. for example, Sygic.

(Yes, there are navigation 'apps' for Windows, OsmAnd[+] isn't such
an app.)

> Hourly updates means there will be a few updates, but probably not in
> your area.
>
> Weather plug-in. I need another weather app?
>
> For current elevation, I don't need another widget. I'm not into
> cluttering my screens with widgets. I just use the Positional app
> (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.trewartha.positional)
> which includes a compass (although I have SimplyWerx app for compassing)
> and dawn/dusk info. Don't need to pay to get elevation.
>
> For the Plus version, not enough bang-for-the-buck, to me, especially
> for a $30/year subscription. However, there is in "Install" button on
> the app's page, just a "$29.99 Buy" button, but the page also says
> "In-app purchases". So, you pay for it, and it still had ads?

See above for the differences between free app, paid app and monthly
subscription.

FWIW, I've used OsmAnd+ extensively for many, many years, several
times around the globe and never found the need for the features of the
monthly subscription.

And "In-app purchases" means just that, in-app *purchases*. For
example in my OsmAnd+ version, I can 'buy' the OsmAnd Pro subscription
(they call it a 'plan'). (Doing a quick look, I haven't seen any other
purchases.) If it contained *ads*, the Google Play / Play Store entry
would *say* so.

[...]

> "Data is encrypted in transit"
> What data? They don't need to encrypt their map data that I download
> since anyone can access that data, plus OSM even provides an API to
> retrieve their map data. The payware Plus version has the cloud
> storage, so maybe that's the user data that gets encrypted, but just
> don't see what user data is generated or stored by this app. Does this
> app save waypoints?

Yes, of course, several different kinds.

For your other questions: They have a quite ellaborate website. Have
you looked at that?

> Supposedly this, and other, map app will alert you when you are
> exceeding the speed limit, and may show the speed limit in the display
> for the street you are on. Okay, but I've yet to see that work when I
> trialed a bunch of map apps a while ago (probably over a year). That
> makes me wonder just how dense is their crowd sourcing their map data.
> Waze talks about showing other nearby Waze drivers, but that really
> doesn't give stats on density of participating community members in your
> area. I have not found stats on density of OSM contributors by city or
> region. I live in a metro of 3.7 million, so you'd think there are some
> OSM contributors here, but I'm leery when I don't see speed limits
> indicating the contributor density here is, at best, sparse. I can find
> articles, like:
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Number-of-OpenStreetMap-OSM-Contributors-per-Population-Area-ratio-Jan-2007-Sept_fig2_272646359
>
> but that's over a decade old, and only gathered stats on a few
> locations. Unless the *active* crowd-sourcing community is dense in my
> area, I don't see the point of using this mapping service. I found:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats
>
> but, again, that is worthless for determining the density of active
> contributors in any particular area. If there are not many contributors
> in the area you want mapped, accuracy will be poor as well as volume and
> interval of updates.

OpenStreetMap contributors do not just use *their* data, but also and
even mostly, publicly available/useable data. Creating worldwide maps
from scratch, would be impossible with just contributor data.

In my experience, OSM maps are of similar quality as commercial maps
(like Google Maps, TomTom, HERE, etc.) and often better in out-of-town/
rural/outback/remote/<whatever> areas. OsmAnd can also show a lot,
probably orders of magnitude, more POI information than other - pure/
mainly navigation - apps.

FYI, as you have looked at them: OsmAnd+ (OSM maps) is my main app,
Sygic (TomTom) is my hardly ever used backup and HERE WeGo (HERE/NAVTEQ
maps) is my 'if everything else fails' app.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-06-16 19:07, VanguardLH wrote:
> NOTE: Subject changed since this subthread has focused on map apps (due
> to my suggestion to the OP) which is not the topic of the original
> thread.
>
>
> Patron Saint <pat...@saint.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm going to retract my recommendation for MapFactor Navigator since it
>> won't seem to have any advantages over the free OSMAnd+ which has no ads.
>
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus
>
> Yep, free unless you want the Plus features ($29.99 yearly
> *subscriptionware*), which are:

I bought the "+" app some years ago (single payment), and apparently I
have unlimited maps, but not automatic updates.

>
> OsmAnd Cloud (backup and restore)
> Cross-platform
> Hourly map updates
> Weather plug-in
> Elevation widget
> Customize route line
> External sensors support (ANT+, Bluetooth)
> Online elevation profile
>
> Hmm, since Bluetooth is mentioned as a paid Plus feature, will the free
> version still connect via Bluetooth for audio output of driving
> instructions to the car's stereo?

I have not tried that, but the app is in my Android Auto display. And
Android auto can be via cable or via radio.

However, I guess that if your connect your car audio to the phone via
BT, everything goes through the car speakers, same as if you are using
headphones.

>
> Weather plug-in. I need another weather app?

I have not tried that, but I would like "something" that predicts the
weather on my route at the hour I will be on each part of the route.
Neither TomTom nor Google Maps does that.

>
> For current elevation, I don't need another widget. I'm not into
> cluttering my screens with widgets. I just use the Positional app
> (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=io.trewartha.positional)
> which includes a compass (although I have SimplyWerx app for compassing)
> and dawn/dusk info. Don't need to pay to get elevation.

AFAIK, elevation is for plotting the elevation into the already
displayed maps, not a widget. Altitude curves, or shadows in the
mountains. I have both, and I do want them. Cheap and single payment.
Don't remember if it is a single item or two.

>
> For the Plus version, not enough bang-for-the-buck, to me, especially
> for a $30/year subscription. However, there is in "Install" button on
> the app's page, just a "$29.99 Buy" button, but the page also says
> "In-app purchases". So, you pay for it, and it still had ads?

No, mine is single payments and no adds.

>
> Doesn't look like your recommendation of OsmAnd+ is free as you claim.
> Maybe what you have is their free version (without the plus sign) at
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand which also
> notes "in-app purchases". I don't recall ever seeing an add in Google
> Maps, but then they make money from the telemetry they collect.
>
> "Data is encrypted in transit"
> What data? They don't need to encrypt their map data that I download
> since anyone can access that data, plus OSM even provides an API to
> retrieve their map data. The payware Plus version has the cloud
> storage, so maybe that's the user data that gets encrypted, but just
> don't see what user data is generated or stored by this app. Does this
> app save waypoints?

AFAIK yes, but the app is not easy to use, it has tons of features and
they seem to change or evolve.

...

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-06-16 17:18, Patron Saint wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 11:24:02 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> Notice that OSM and TomTom reached an agreement. They may be sharing
>> the map now.
>
> Thank you for looking that up because I was unaware of the OSM conjoining.
>
> I didn't know this since I last used MapFactor Navigator when I didn't have
> cellular data and I had found it more accurate than the OSM maps were.
>
> It looks like the founder of OSM has a key position with the TomTom execs.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TomTom
> Where I was rather surprised to see this unrelated line in that wiki.
> "In April 2011, TomTom apologized for supplying driving data collected from
> customers to police to use in catching speeding motorists."
>
> Wow. That's bad.

You have to read the entire section, is not that simple.
And the references:

<https://web.archive.org/web/20170810172128/https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/27/tomtom_customer_data_flap/>

<https://web.archive.org/web/20110501003501/http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/04/27/business-telecommunications-equipment-eu-netherlands-earns-tomtom_8438128.html>

>
> Anyway, looks like TomTom has been editing OSM maps since only 2021.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TomTom
>
> That same wiki says that the conjoined maps will be released in 2023.
> "TomTom announced that its new TomTom Map will use OSM data when it is
> released, sometime in 2023"

I don't know if my TomTom device will automatically see those maps, or
whether I have to purchase a new device.

>
> I'm going to retract my recommendation for MapFactor Navigator since it
> won't seem to have any advantages over the free OSMAnd+ which has no ads.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Wally J]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote

>> Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
>> nothing of import
>

> Your lack of attention span or initiative is not my fault. So, um, your
> one-liners are really supposed to convery more information. Uh huh.

The best advice is to plonk Joerg so that nobody has to see his garbage.
Certainly please do not respond to him as he has nothing at all to say.
(I've long ago plonked him so if he bothers to respond, I won't see it.)

[VanguardLH]

Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> And "In-app purchases" means just that, in-app *purchases*. For
> example in my OsmAnd+ version, I can 'buy' the OsmAnd Pro subscription
> (they call it a 'plan'). (Doing a quick look, I haven't seen any other
> purchases.) If it contained *ads*, the Google Play / Play Store entry
> would *say* so.

In-app purchases can be for upgrades to the app, or for other products
by the same app author, or completely unrelated products. Google /does/
say so by noting "In-app purchases". There is no mandate those ads are
only for that app or from that app author.

https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/1061913

As yet, I've found nothing by Google dictating the scope of content for
those in-app offers. Despite "purchases", those in-app purchases are
offers hence ads. The only requirement is those in-app offers go
through Google Play's billing service, so Google gets a slice of that
pie, too, and Google gets to track the count and what acquisitions were
made by a user on its server.

>> "Data is encrypted in transit"
>> What data? They don't need to encrypt their map data that I download
>> since anyone can access that data, plus OSM even provides an API to
>> retrieve their map data. The payware Plus version has the cloud
>> storage, so maybe that's the user data that gets encrypted, but just
>> don't see what user data is generated or stored by this app. Does this
>> app save waypoints?
>
> Yes, of course, several different kinds.
>
> For your other questions: They have a quite ellaborate website. Have
> you looked at that?

But no description of just what is the user data that gets encrypted
which would only be important if it were to traverse the Internet.

>> Supposedly this, and other, map app will alert you when you are
>> exceeding the speed limit, and may show the speed limit in the display
>> for the street you are on. Okay, but I've yet to see that work when I
>> trialed a bunch of map apps a while ago (probably over a year).

They claim the feature. They don't provide info on just where it is
available (i.e., in their map database by region, state, or city).

>> That
>> makes me wonder just how dense is their crowd sourcing their map data.

They don't provide that information.

> OpenStreetMap contributors do not just use *their* data, but also and
> even mostly, publicly available/useable data. Creating worldwide maps
> from scratch, would be impossible with just contributor data.

The problem there are contributors that use gov't street plans. The
contributors obtain this free info from their gov't (e.g., municipal
dept) on street plats. But the gov't will show streets that do not yet
exist, but are planned for later construction. That means the
contributors using this free gov't info will add streets to their map
data for non-existing streets.

For example, several years when I used some map app using the OSM
database, it showed a street along a highway that went to the city in
Florida that I wanted to go to. I missed the major turnoff from the
highway, but this street was just after a major intersection, so I
figured it would also take me toward the target city. There was even a
sign pounded into the ground pointing to the right with the city name.
It was a yet-to-be-developed road, was currently just where some
tractors had tamped down the grass, and went into a swamp. I didn't
fell like feeding the alligators that day.

Yes, the contributors were adding map data they thought was okay, but
those plats included future plans for street construction, so those
streets didn't yet exist.

> In my experience, OSM maps are of similar quality as commercial maps
> (like Google Maps, TomTom, HERE, etc.) and often better in out-of-town/
> rural/outback/remote/<whatever> areas.

Accuracy depends on the density of OSM contributors in an area to
correlate and overlap on their contributed map data. In a low density
area, there aren't enough contributors, and those that are there may not
have covered the area of interest to you.

Upon your clarification (and the osmand.net article below):
- OsmAnd Maps & GPS Offline = free, but limited feature set.
- OsmAnd+ Maps & GPS Offline = $29.99
- OsmAnd Pro = $2.99/month subscription

Since I'm already using Google Maps, I'd only be looking at similarly
ad-free and cost-free map app alternatives. Here WeGo was a very close
match on that criteria, but see next on why they became unusable, to me.

Here WeGo has a problem on my phone with showing the current location
pointer some 11 miles away from my actual current location. Could not
fix this bug with their support help.

Maps.Me has too many ads, and the free version limits downloaded maps to
10. Might be enough for me, but their UI is cluttered, and I detest
ads. Alas, finding truly ad-free apps at the Google Play Store is rare.

Mapfactor Navigator free has ads, and limited to 7 map downloads.
That's probably not the max total, but the max that can be locally
stored for offline use.

OsmAnd free (not interested in paying for a Plus or Pro version). The
matrix of differences between free and Plus/Pro versions convinces me
the free version is all I need. Yet they, too, have ads. "In-app
purchases" *are* ads. Doesn't matter if an app advertises for itself,
the author's other products, or someone else's products. They're ads.

If the ad is merely an entry in a menu (and only 1 entry) that is seen
only when looking at the menu list then the ad content is acceptable.
If an add appears anywhere else, especially if atop the map, is not
tolerable. One map app plastered a gold crown icon atop the top left
corner of the app as an add icon, plus they had an ad entry in the menu.
The latter is tolerable. The former is not.

https://osmand.net/docs/user/purchases/android/

Says free version is ad-free yet Google Play Store mentions in-app
purchases (yep, those are ads). If the ad is 1 entry in a menu or in
settings, okay. If the ad content appears more than once, or anywhere
other than as a menu entry (which would have the ad content mostly
hidden) then that's okay, too. If the ad content appears anywhere else,
it'll get uninstalled.

Oh, geez, I see there is a map download limit with OSM, too, like with
Maps.Me and other map apps using the OSM database. Perhaps OSM put a
limit of map downloads on any free map app. You pay for a map app to
get more features, like unlimited downloads, because that might give the
app author some funds to pay OSM for unlimited map access. I currently
have 3 map downloads in Google Maps (and in the previously trialed maps
apps), so that leaves me with only 4 in reserve. Also, map updates are
once per month, but those updates are 15 days old on the update. This
lag is punishment to us freeloaders for using the free app versus paying
for it. OsmAnd free might still be doable provided they don't clutter
their UI with ad(s).

Sygic has too many defects. Just trialed it, too many bugs: hangs when
close any login dialog without logging in (I'm not creating an account),
extremely slow map downloads, all of Canada and Mexico can be selected
for download but US requires 50 taps to select all states, makes my
phone so sluggish as to be unusable, no exit inside of app (have to use
its notification's "Turn Off" button), HUD mode was blank, and more
problems than I can remember right now. Simple cure: uninstall it.

Mapfactor Navigator. Since this uses the OSM database, I see no point
in using a map app other than OsmAnd should I trial it again to see if
it more accurate this time.

I'll report back if I decided to keep the OsmAnd free app.

[Patron Saint]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 12:07:25 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
> Yep, free unless you want the Plus features ($29.99 yearly
> *subscriptionware*), which are:

I don't know how you missed the really free OSMAnd+ that I referenced since
I gave you the full URL to it but somehow you managed to miss the fully
functional free OSMAnd+ (also sometimes referred to as OSMAnd~ in news).

Please re-read Message-ID: <u6g8nt$tunt$1...@novabbs.org> to look at the URL.

[Patron Saint]

On 16 Jun 2023 18:55:58 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> For some reason I can't scroll through the 'About this app' part at
> the moment, but there are three 'versions':

Not three versions. Four versions.

Please re-read Message-ID: <u6g8nt$tunt$1...@novabbs.org> & look at the URL.

Number 4 is the same as your number 2 with only minor support differences.
The main practical difference is number 4 is free & number 2 is not free.

[Patron Saint]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 22:37:09 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> I bought the "+" app some years ago (single payment), and apparently I
> have unlimited maps, but not automatic updates.

It would be useful for you to describe what you got for purchasing the "+"
when you could have gotten the same "+" app for free without purchasing it.

I searched this newsgroup and I found that the differences were described
quite a few times but summarized they seem to only be in support calls.

I may be wrong but the really free "+" version, based on what my searches
of this newsgroup found, seems to be limited in one-on-one support calls.

In some of the articles I found in my search of this newsgroup (where the
topic has come up maybe a few scores of times) people said they wanted to
pay the developer for the "+" version even though they knew it was free.

But if you wanted to donate to developers, you can always do that without
giving Google a 30% cut (unless you wanted to also donate 30% to Google).

What is your reason for paying for the "+" version instead of getting the
exact same "+" version for free? The support? Or the donation to OSMAnd?

[VanguardLH]

Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> For occasional (or no) use, i.e. like the OP (Ken Blake), you don't
> have to buy Skype Minutes, you can buy Skype Credit [1].
>
> Skype Credit starts as low as EUR 5 (I've EUR 10), can be set to
> top-up automatically and never expires.
>
> You can call any number anywhere for quite reasonable rates. For
> example Italy (i.e. Ken's case) is 2.4 cts/min for landline and 10.4
> cts/min for mobile (for NL users, probably similar for US users).
>
> As said elsewhere, you of course need an Internet connection - i.e.
> Wi-Fi or mobile data - to use Skype.
>
> I use it as a backup or/and for lengthly or/and overseas calls, for
> example when visiting Australia or the US.
>
> [1]
> 'Call phones and send SMS anywhere in the world at affordable prices
> with Skype Credit'
> <https://www.skype.com/en/credit>
>
> [...]

Yep, Skype Minutes has you pre-pay (you add a balance to your Skype
account against which future calls are deducted from your Google Wallet)
while Skype Credit is a pay-as-you-go setup (but you have to buy a
minimum number of minutes). Since you have to pre-pay no matter if
buying minutes by adding to a balance, or pre-paying to get a credit,
seems you're doing the same in either case. You add to Google Wallet or
you add to a credit line against which intl calls are charged.

https://www.skype.com/en/credit/

You'll need a Microsoft for either payment. However, you say unused
Skype Credit rolls over (every month?), so it might end up being cheaper
than the pre-paid minutes just vaporizing. I don't like losing quota
that I paid for.

Without a wifi connection, the OP would, as you say, still need cellular
data service, so he'd still be buying a SIM card for his phone. He'd
pay for the cellular service, but perhaps Skype's intl rates are cheaper
than whatever he gets for cellular data service.

I used to get 60 minutes per month of free (included) Skype Minutes with
an MS 365 subscription. That lasted for 5 years until I decided to stop
subscribing. In that 5 years, I think I used Skype for phone calls
maybe twice, and never used it for free Skype-to-Skype chatting. Tried
convincing family and friends to add Skype apps to their phone, or use
the web site, but none of them wanted to use Skype. Back then, I think
they were into WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger.

[Patron Saint]

On Fri, 16 Jun 2023 17:49:38 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:
> Upon your clarification (and the osmand.net article below):
> - OsmAnd Maps & GPS Offline = free, but limited feature set.
> - OsmAnd+ Maps & GPS Offline = $29.99
> - OsmAnd Pro = $2.99/month subscription

I ran a search and the fourth OSMAnd+ was covered many times already
on this newgroup where that fourth OSMAnd is called OSMAnd+ or OSMAnd~.

It's the same APK only it's free while the second OSMAnd+ is not free.
Take a look at the URL in Message-ID: <u6g8nt$tunt$1...@novabbs.org>.

[VanguardLH]

Patron Saint <pat...@saint.com> wrote:

> I don't know how you missed the really free OSMAnd+ that I referenced since
> I gave you the full URL to it but somehow you managed to miss the fully
> functional free OSMAnd+ (also sometimes referred to as OSMAnd~ in news).
>
> Please re-read Message-ID: <u6g8nt$tunt$1...@novabbs.org> to look at the URL.

That does NOT point to the OsmAnd apps set. That article mentions
Mapfactor's Navigator app for which I already mentioned why I don't like
it, and won't be using it. There are several map apps that utilize the
Osm maps database. Mapfactor is one of them.

I don't know how you missed the replies to that article of yours.

[Patron Saint]

You missed it again?
That's how many times you missed it on this ng? Maybe fifty or more times?

Must I walk you through everything that you should know just because the
first fifty times you were told this information you missed it each time?

Oh well, let's try fifty one times, ok?

First, copy this message ID into your clipboard (with the angle brackets).
<u6g8nt$tunt$1...@novabbs.org>

Then paste it into the standard Usenet lookup engine that's been around for
multiple (decades so you have no excuse for not knowing about it by now).
http://al.howardknight.net/

What URL comes up for the free OSMAnd+ I already told you about?

[VanguardLH]

I don't have to all that shit. I can find an article in my own client
using the MID which you provided. That's your article recommending
Mapfactor Navigator. Go to that article, and look at its raw source to
see the value of the MID header. Yep, it's the one you gave.

Not only were you incorrect in Mapfactor not using OSM maps (it does),
but you neglected to note that it has ads, and is limited to 7 map
downloads in the free version.

Claim all you want that I don't know how to use Usenet. You don't know
how to specify the correct MID for whatever article you claim is the app
which you recommend. Considering you are dufus in citing the MID for
the article, here's Howard Knight's copy of your article with the MID
you specify:

http://al.howardknight.net/?STYPE=msgid&MSGI=%3Cu6g8nt%24tunt%241%40novabbs.org%3E

And, as mentioned already, that app was discussed, and dismissed.

Pretty much it has become obvious you are a troll. Your tactics are
familiar, so likely a nymshifting troll. Bye bye.