Why do google offline maps expire every n? days?

[micky]

Why do google offline maps expire every n? days?

I guess I figured it out. Because when they sell advertising on their
map, they want to promise that within n days (I forget n. 60?) it will
be disbursed to anyone looking at the map, and maybe more important,
they want to provide more incentive for customers to keep paying for the
advertising, that if they stop, within 30 days, no one will see it
anymore.

At any rate, it's a nuisance. Even though I didn't want to renew any
maps except Baltimore and one just south of here, it kept starting to
download the other 8 I used during the summer. I'd cancel and the next
time I turned the phone on, it would start again. Today all but two got
marked expired -- maybe I cancelled them enough times -- so I hope that
will be the end of them unless I ask for them again.

[Stijn De Jong]

On Thu, 09 Feb 2017 19:03:17 -0500, micky wrote:

> Why do google offline maps expire every n? days?

Interesting hypothesis!

I got tired of the constant nagging by Google Maps to update the maps after
30 days on iOS and 31 days on Android (go figure).

So, on Android, I just use free offline map programs which are almost as
good as offline Google Maps and far better than offline Google Maps in
terms of offline routing & offline POIs.

It's hard to find a free offline map almost as good as Google Maps, but the
one free download that comes with Alk CoPilot is great.

The OSM maps are just ok, such as those from MapFactor Navigator or OSMAnd,
so the only maps that rival Google Maps in offline quality is the one free
download from Alk Copilot.

[Andy Burns]

Stijn De Jong wrote:

> micky wrote:
>
>> Why do google offline maps expire every n? days?

To keep the data current? I'm not clear whether the downloaded data is
*only* road information, or whether it does include the advertiser info
you think it does, can you search for a business without a data
connection just because you have the maps for the area downloaded for
use offline? I suspect not ...

> Interesting hypothesis!
>
> I got tired of the constant nagging by Google Maps to update the maps after
> 30 days on iOS and 31 days on Android

I just told it to stop warning about expiry and automatically download
the areas I'd marked, whenever it's on WiFi, usually I don't notice ...

[VanguardLH]

Google Maps automatically updates my offline maps but only I am
connected to a wi-fi hotspot (home or elsewhere). I configured it that
way. I do not have unlimited cellular data quota. I don't want Google
Maps eating up my *limited* cellular data quota to update a couple maps
that I stored offline (onto my smartphone).

Where is all this "advertising" you see in Google Maps? Yep, the points
of interest on a map can change. Their map isn't just about the roads.
It's also about places in that area. Nope, you do not have to pay
Google to get your place added to their map.

https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6320846?co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop&hl=en
http://www.wikihow.com/Add-Places-to-Google-Maps

They are providing you with a map. That has roads. It has places.
Users just like you are adding places. Users just like you are updating
their maps. They are providing you with an updated map. That means
they need to expire the ones that are offline so you actually get their
updated map.

If you don't want to retain offline maps that consume storage on your
smartphone and that you no longer need, why are you not deleting them?

https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838?co=GENIE.Platform%3DAndroid&hl=en

If you don't want the Google Maps to automatically update your set of
offline maps then why not disable the auto-update option? Go to Google
Maps app -> hamburger icon (top left) in search bar -> Offline areas ->
gear icon (to change settings). There are 2 settings there:

- Automatically update offline areas.
- Automatically download offline areas.

(And is also where you can configure the app to update/download ONLY
when you are connected to a wi-fi hotspot.)

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-02-10 09:05, Andy Burns wrote:

> I just told it to stop warning about expiry and automatically download
> the areas I'd marked, whenever it's on WiFi, usually I don't notice ...

Same here.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Stijn De Jong]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 02:48:59 -0600, VanguardLH wrote:

> They are providing you with a map. That has roads. It has places.

I gave up more than a year ago on Google offline maps, so I don't recall if
the offline maps on iOS and Android have POI searches available offline.

Certainly the re-routing didn't work offline, and certainly the GUI for
downloading map tiles was worse than atrocious.

But my question to you is to ask whether you're absolutely sure that you
can search POIs offline while using an offline downloaded Google map tile?

[Stijn De Jong]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 09:56:40 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

>> I just told it to stop warning about expiry and automatically download
>> the areas I'd marked, whenever it's on WiFi, usually I don't notice ...
>
> Same here.

I stopped updating Google offline maps so long ago that it may have been
before that option existed, as I don't recall having that option (although
I may have missed it) on both iOS and on Android.

In the end, there's really very little utility of a downloaded Google Map
Tile (IMHO), for a variety of reasons:
a. It's a pain to download them since the GUI doesn't really exist
b. It's a pain to deal with the update (although you turned that off)
c. You have to plan ahead (although that's OK for local areas)
d. You can't change the route (AFAICR) nor do POI searches (AFAICR).
e. The maps are no better than the free Alk Co-Pilot maps anyway.

While Google Maps online is fantastic stuff, google maps offline is
actually pretty crappy, especially when compared to the best non-OSM
offline maps.

So, I simply use Google Maps online for traffic, and when I need a POI that
isn't in the offline maps (which happens a lot, unfortunately); then I use
the offline maps for everything else (which are far better, overall, than
Google offline maps are).

[Frank Slootweg]

Stijn De Jong <stijnd...@nlnet.nl> wrote:
[...]

> It's hard to find a free offline map almost as good as Google Maps, but the
> one free download that comes with Alk CoPilot is great.

AFAIK, Copilot uses NAVTEQ - now HERE - maps. If so, you might have a
look at HERE's own app [1], which is free, has free map updates and
obviously uses its own (HERE) maps.

FWIW, I've the 'HERE WeGo', but mostly use others (OsmAnd+ and Sygic
(paid, but a bargain for a 'lifetime', worldwide, multi-device license).

[1] 'HERE WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS'
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.maps>

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-02-10 15:48, Stijn De Jong wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 09:56:40 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>> I just told it to stop warning about expiry and automatically download
>>> the areas I'd marked, whenever it's on WiFi, usually I don't notice ...
>>
>> Same here.
>
> I stopped updating Google offline maps so long ago that it may have been
> before that option existed, as I don't recall having that option (although
> I may have missed it) on both iOS and on Android.
>
> In the end, there's really very little utility of a downloaded Google Map
> Tile (IMHO), for a variety of reasons:
> a. It's a pain to download them since the GUI doesn't really exist
> b. It's a pain to deal with the update (although you turned that off)
> c. You have to plan ahead (although that's OK for local areas)
> d. You can't change the route (AFAICR) nor do POI searches (AFAICR).
> e. The maps are no better than the free Alk Co-Pilot maps anyway.

As you talk of "routes" I think we are talking of different things. I
seem to recall a feature to save the maps for a route ahead of taking
it. Like planing at home while using WiFi. It saved only the route and a
bit to the sides of it.

This is different: you mark a square region on the map, and it is
downloaded. The advantage is doing it cheaply while on WiFi.

> While Google Maps online is fantastic stuff, google maps offline is
> actually pretty crappy, especially when compared to the best non-OSM
> offline maps.

It is the same map as online.


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-02-10 15:48, Stijn De Jong wrote:

Wait. I have offline maps of my home region, but I use google maps
online, so anything that is missing is downloaded as needed. It just
saves *some* bandwidth.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Stijn De Jong]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 20:09:31 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> Wait. I have offline maps of my home region, but I use google maps
> online, so anything that is missing is downloaded as needed. It just
> saves *some* bandwidth.

That's fine, especially if you have, like I do, the free T-Mobile
200MB/month plan on the iOs devices.

But, for offline maps to "really" work, they need to be able to work when
there is no cellulr signal whatsoever.

For that, the suggestion by Frank of using Here, or Copilot freeware or the
Mapfactor navigator freeware or the OSMAnd~ freeware work.

The differences aren't so much in map accuracy, although the Here/Copilot
and Google maps are the most accurate (more so than oSM maps).

The difference is when you need routing guidance, especially when you go
off the original route, and when you need address searches when you're
offline.

My advice?
1. Use Google online (perhaps pre downloading often-used tiles)
2. Use one of the offline map apps when you don't have cellular signal

The caveat on the offline maps is that you have to download your state
ahead of time.

[Stijn De Jong]

On Fri, 10 Feb 2017 20:06:56 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> As you talk of "routes" I think we are talking of different things. I
> seem to recall a feature to save the maps for a route ahead of taking
> it. Like planing at home while using WiFi. It saved only the route and a
> bit to the sides of it.
>
> This is different: you mark a square region on the map, and it is
> downloaded. The advantage is doing it cheaply while on WiFi.
>
>> While Google Maps online is fantastic stuff, google maps offline is
>> actually pretty crappy, especially when compared to the best non-OSM
>> offline maps.
>
> It is the same map as online.

It has been a while since I gave up on offline Google Maps, so, things may
be different now.

Last I tried it (maybe a year or two ago?), you could download all the
tiles you wanted to download, and you could route using those downloaded
tiles, but you could not "re-route".

That's why my letter "d" was that you can't "change the route" after the
fact, unless you go back online first (which is problematic).

Of course, maybe things have changed, but, really, why bother with Google
offline maps when there are *plenty* of free offline map software programs
out there?

For example, Alk CoPilot apparently uses the same maps as Here (according
to Frank) so those maps rival Google Maps in quality (IMHO). The CoPilot
Navtech maps have pretty good POIs, so, that helps when you're doing
address searches offline.

Even the OSM maps that Mapfactor Navigator offline freeware uses are "good
enough" for most mapping activities, although I do admit freely that the
POIs and address searches in MapFactor Navigator suck compared to
Alk-Copilot offline.

[Stijn De Jong]

On 10 Feb 2017 16:31:39 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

> AFAIK, Copilot uses NAVTEQ - now HERE - maps. If so, you might have a
> look at HERE's own app [1], which is free, has free map updates and
> obviously uses its own (HERE) maps.
>
> FWIW, I've the 'HERE WeGo', but mostly use others (OsmAnd+ and Sygic
> (paid, but a bargain for a 'lifetime', worldwide, multi-device license).
>
> [1] 'HERE WeGo - Offline Maps & GPS'
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.here.app.maps>

Very nice!
Good information!

I've been using GPS and maps ever since the computer (literally in our lap)
days in a car (RS232 serial port GPS units) so I pretty much know a good
map when I see it.

If the Here map is the same as the Co-Pilot one free download, then that's
great. The main problem with CoPilot freeware is that the voice guidance
(both TTS and directions, as I recall) turn off after a puny trial period
(it's slightly different on iOS than on Android).

The net is that the only good thing about Alk CoPilot are the maps, which
rival Google Maps in quality (and which beat OSM maps by far).

If the Here WeGo offline map app uses the same maps, that's a win for
everyone!

[Piet]

VanguardLH wrote:
> Google Maps automatically updates my offline maps but only I am
> connected to a wi-fi hotspot (home or elsewhere). I configured
> it that way. I do not have unlimited cellular data quota.
> I don't want Google Maps eating up my *limited* cellular data
> quota to update a couple maps that I stored offline

I too have configured it to use wifi only, but I've also configured
it to only *update* automatically, not to *download* automatically.
I want huge downloads to go over my home wifi only, not over public
wifi or someone else's wifi that I've been granted access to.

-p

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-02-11 12:37, Piet wrote:

> I too have configured it to use wifi only, but I've also configured
> it to only *update* automatically, not to *download* automatically.
> I want huge downloads to go over my home wifi only, not over public
> wifi or someone else's wifi that I've been granted access to.

Some apps are configured to download only using wifi and while charging.
I think google photos does this. Would be nice if maps did the same,
because this combo, wifi and charging usually indicates home and not
actively using the phone.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Arno Welzel]

micky wrote:

> Why do google offline maps expire every n? days?

Because the map data gets updated. No map is valid forever - streets
will be build, others will close, POIs change etc..

> I guess I figured it out. Because when they sell advertising on their
> map, they want to promise that within n days (I forget n. 60?) it will

Advertising will only work with an online connection and has nothing to
do with the map data.



--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
https://de-rec-fahrrad.de
http://fahrradzukunft.de

[VanguardLH]

I also configured the app to enable both automatic options (update and
download) but set Download Preferences to "Over wi-fi only". That way,
I get the updates but only if I have a wi-fi connection, like at home or
some wi-fi hotspot (I use free ones). I don't see anything that I need
to keep private when downloading publicly available maps. They can only
infer my areas of interest. After all, I'm retrieving maps from a
company known for spying.

I leave my phone powered on all the time, so there are better ways of
finding where I am. Did you enable Samsung's security service that lets
you find your lost phone or lock it when lost? Did you install security
software (e.g., Avast) on your phone with similar features? Did your
parents give you your smartphone or you left it out unlocked so someone
else got physical access to it who might've used gpshonetracker.org on
it? Everytime you connect to a cell tower, your use of their network is
recorded. If the FBI knows your number, they can subpoena those records
to see where you live and where you've been. While the blobs (several
mile radius) for your connects don't pinpoint your exact location, they
will show where you travel in general. The more you connect to the same
tower to more it indicates a home, work, or school location. The
records aren't super accurate but often good enough during investigation
(http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-your-cell-phone-cant-tell-the-police).
Stores can track your visits to them with their hotspots
(http://bgr.com/2014/02/19/how-smartphone-wi-fi-tracking-works/).

More than just Google (getting their maps) knows where is my smartphone.

[Arno Welzel]

VanguardLH wrote:

> After all, I'm retrieving maps from a company known for spying.

Well - "spying" means to access information without letting anyone know.
As far I know Google tells you what kind of information they collect -
don't they? Is there any evidence that Google collects data even if the
people configured the location services *not* to use Google services and
*not* to store a location history?

[Piet]

Arno Welzel wrote:
> VanguardLH wrote:
>> After all, I'm retrieving maps from a company known for spying.
>
> Well - "spying" means to access information without letting anyone know.

Well, that's part of the "mission" of any smartphone, isn't it?

> As far I know Google tells you what kind of information they collect -
> don't they?

You expect them to tell you more than they *want to let you know*.

> Is there any evidence that Google collects data even if the people
> configured the location services *not* to use Google services and
> *not* to store a location history?

Location services are only part of the data harvesting game.

BTW, if you monitor the IP connections on your smartphone, here's
an interesting article:
https://www.pcmech.com/article/the-mysterious-1e100-net/

-p

[Arno Welzel]

Piet wrote:

> Arno Welzel wrote:
>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>> After all, I'm retrieving maps from a company known for spying.
>>
>> Well - "spying" means to access information without letting anyone know.
>
> Well, that's part of the "mission" of any smartphone, isn't it?

No, it isn't. The mission is to sell devices and to make money with
services like selling apps.

>> As far I know Google tells you what kind of information they collect -
>> don't they?
>
> You expect them to tell you more than they *want to let you know*.

No, I expect, that Google is a company which want's to sell stuff.

>> Is there any evidence that Google collects data even if the people
>> configured the location services *not* to use Google services and
>> *not* to store a location history?
>
> Location services are only part of the data harvesting game.

Nobody is interested in the exact location of a single person. And even
if this would be the case - the cell phone providers had the location
based on the current cell connections already many years before Google
started to implement their services. And yes, the providers also sold
"location based services" back in the late 1990ies.

Google collects information about visible WiFi hotspots, mobile network
cells etc. to have a more detailed database so they can improve the
"coarse location" service in Android. The result is, that you can get
location even without GPS reception.

However - you can turn off this service as well. You believe that the
setting is only cosmetic and Google will still collect detailed location
data even when you turned off the Google location services (e.g. "Device
only" with GPS only in location settings) or when turning off location
service completely?

And if you don't trust anyone in this business - stop using mobile
phones, seriously!

> BTW, if you monitor the IP connections on your smartphone, here's
> an interesting article:
> https://www.pcmech.com/article/the-mysterious-1e100-net/

Google sells services and they use their own Domain 1e100.net for this.
There is nothing "mysterious" about it:

<https://support.google.com/faqs/answer/174717?hl=en>

<https://wiki.mozilla.org/Security/Safe_Browsing>

Of course, if one does not try to find the original documentation about
things, many things look "mysterious" and "evil".

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-02-26 23:57, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Piet wrote:
>
>> Arno Welzel wrote:
>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>> After all, I'm retrieving maps from a company known for spying.
>>>
>>> Well - "spying" means to access information without letting anyone know.
>>
>> Well, that's part of the "mission" of any smartphone, isn't it?
>
> No, it isn't. The mission is to sell devices and to make money with
> services like selling apps.

Big Data makes a big part of the deal.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Piet]

Arno Welzel wrote:
> Piet wrote:
>> Arno Welzel wrote:
>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>> After all, I'm retrieving maps from a company known for spying.
>>>
>>> Well - "spying" means to access information without letting anyone know.
>>
>> Well, that's part of the "mission" of any smartphone, isn't it?
>
> No, it isn't. The mission is to sell devices and to make money
> with services like selling apps.

So they say. And apparently you really trust them on their blue
eyes and believe all they tell you. And apparently you believe
they do all the data collection just for fun.

-p

[Arno Welzel]

No.

[heet...@yahoo.ca]

ya this 30 day thing is bullshit

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 25.07.17 um 12:18 schrieb heet...@yahoo.ca:

> ya this 30 day thing is bullshit
>

why?

--
De gustibus non est disputandum

[Poutnik]

Dne 25.7.2017 v 12:18 heet...@yahoo.ca napsal(a):

> ya this 30 day thing is bullshit

Then there is time to switch to true offline solutions,
like Mapsfactor Navigator, OSMAnd, LocusMaps or others.

--
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )

A wise man guards words he says,
as they say about him more,
than he says about the subject.

[lifewoutmilk]

heet...@yahoo.ca wrote on 7/25/2017 3:18 AM:
> ya this 30 day thing is bullshit

You should ask for a refund for your purchase of Google Maps.

[Roy Tremblay]

<heet...@yahoo.ca> actually wrote:

> ya this 30 day thing is bullshit

Thank your lucky stars you're not on iOS.
It's one day less on iOS at 29 days!

What I do is save the Google offline maps to area1, area2, area3, etc., and
when it asks to update, I don't let it update.

They don't need to update.
They just nag.

They still work even if you don't update.

But the only thing Google Maps has over other offline free map apps is
traffic so that's the only thing I use Google Maps for anyway.

Otherwise, there are just as accurate offline map apps which don't need
cellular. (Google is pretty accurate though, so you won't get better - but
you'll get just as good as long as it's not OSM maps).

[Andy Burns]

Roy Tremblay wrote:

> What I do is save the Google offline maps to area1, area2, area3, etc., and
> when it asks to update, I don't let it update.
> They don't need to update.
> They just nag.
> They still work even if you don't update.

I set them to autoupdate but only over WiFi, I very rarely tether the
devices with maps over WiFi to a "pay-per-byte" connection, so why not?

[nospam]

In article <olb06v$1pkj$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Roy Tremblay

<rembla...@nlnet.nl> wrote:

>
> > ya this 30 day thing is bullshit
>
> Thank your lucky stars you're not on iOS.
> It's one day less on iOS at 29 days!

it's 30 days on all devices, controlled by google's servers, not the
device, and they're automatically updated 15 days out anyway so it's
not an issue whatsoever.

<https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838?hl=en>
Offline maps that you downloaded on your phone or tablet need to be
updated at least every 30 days. When your offline maps expire in 15
days or less, Google Maps will try to update the area automatically
when you're connected to Wi-Fi.

[Roy Tremblay]

Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> actually wrote:

> I set them to autoupdate but only over WiFi, I very rarely tether the
> devices with maps over WiFi to a "pay-per-byte" connection, so why not?

Thanks for that suggestion as I never even considered that they could
autoupdate on Wi-Fi.

It's been so long since I even opened a Google Map that I haven't kept up
on what it can do.

I jumped on the offline maps when they first came out (what, maybe 2 or 3
years ago?) and found out the limitations, so, I only use Google Maps for
traffic.

Don't get me wrong, I always compare all other map apps to Google Maps for
accuracy, directions, traffic, and offline search and offline routing
(including rerouting) - so Google is pretty good.

But, other than traffic, what does Google Maps have that you can't get for
free in another offline map app?

[Roy Tremblay]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> actually wrote:

>> Thank your lucky stars you're not on iOS.
>> It's one day less on iOS at 29 days!
>
> it's 30 days on all devices, controlled by google's servers, not the
> device, and they're automatically updated 15 days out anyway so it's
> not an issue whatsoever.
>
> <https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838?hl=en>
> Offline maps that you downloaded on your phone or tablet need to be
> updated at least every 30 days. When your offline maps expire in 15
> days or less, Google Maps will try to update the area automatically
> when you're connected to Wi-Fi.

First, the comment, while true, was made in jest, since it was only 1 day
different.

Second, I tested Google offline maps extremely thoroughly, when they first
came out, and at that time, it was 29 days for iOS versus 30 days for
Android. (We can check the comp.mobile.ipad & comp.mobile.android record to
see exactly when I reported and how I tested that.)
http://tinyurl.com/comp.mobile.ipad
http://tinyurl.com/comp.mobile.android

Third, I commend you for saying something that was actually helpful, which
is rare, for you, so I appreciate that you echoed what Andy Burns said,
which is that Google updated their update capability in the time between
when I lasted tested the offline maps thoroughly.

This will be useful information for others.
For me, I almost never use Google Maps since there are just as good offline
alternatives. I only use Google Maps for traffic.

[M.L.]

>For me, I almost never use Google Maps since there are just as good offline
>alternatives. I only use Google Maps for traffic.

That seems wasteful. Under what circumstances would you need to use
mapping software without using traffic?

[nospam]

In article <7r3incpi3ks5mh57o...@4ax.com>, M.L.

when not driving.

[Roy Tremblay]

Your question seems completely loaded with unstated assumptions, which I
have to infer in order to faithfully answer your question (since you didn't
state your assumptions).

For example, guessing at what on earth makes you say what you said, if you
only use map routing software to get from critical business appointment to
critical business appointment in a busy city when you're in completely
unfamiliar territory, I can imagine that traffic is almost required, as you
infer.

However, if you don't have online data then traffic is useless, as is if
the cellular signal sucks - so - anyone who can't route offline is a fool,
if they don't have a backup for when cellular isn't available.

Likewise if you're smart enough to never log into a Google account from a
cell phone.

Likewise, if you keep an extensive list of POIs and Waypoints, you map and
route from point to point, especially for non-critical meetings and for
when there is little chance of traffic (depends on the time of day) where
there's no need to have to rely on cellular and to let Google know where
you are every second of the day.

Likewise if you go offroad all the time (as I do) and you still want
routing, but you have no need for traffic whatsoever.

Besides, I'm sure there are other apps than Google Maps that don't require
a login and that can use offline maps that give real-time traffic, so even
if traffic is "required", you can still get it outside of Google Maps.

[Roy Tremblay]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> actually wrote:

>> That seems wasteful. Under what circumstances would you need to use
>> mapping software without using traffic?
>
> when not driving.

You would say that since you've never once said anything that a marketing
department didn't feed you.

[Chris in Makati]

I just updated my offline maps on iOS and it says they expire in 29
days.

[Chris in Makati]

I often use Google Maps just to find out where places are and plan
trips. You only need traffic information when actually traveling by
road.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-07-26 23:28, Roy Tremblay wrote:

> Andy Burns <> actually wrote:

>
> But, other than traffic, what does Google Maps have that you can't get for
> free in another offline map app?

Satellite photos?
Contour overlay?

The contour on osmand is payware.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[nospam]

In article <nt8inc11t8vaj464o...@4ax.com>, Chris in

today is the first day, plus 29 more, makes 30 days.

math is hard.

[Roy Tremblay]

Chris in Makati <ma...@nospam.com> actually wrote:

>>That seems wasteful. Under what circumstances would you need to use
>>mapping software without using traffic?
>
> I often use Google Maps just to find out where places are and plan
> trips. You only need traffic information when actually traveling by
> road.

I agree with you that traffic is only needed when it's needed.

The guy nospam listens only to marketing bs so he thinks traffic is
required 24/7 when, in reality, it's needed maybe once a month if that, and
even then, only when on trips in highly unfamiliar territory or when
there's an accident in unfamiliar territory.

For the vast part of a typical commute, all the traffic is gonna tell you
is what you could tell it, months in advance since the traffic is often the
same all the time.

It's pretty to look at though, which is probably why nospam thinks it's
needed 24/7. He likes pretty things.

[Roy Tremblay]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> actually wrote:

> Satellite photos?
> Contour overlay?
>
> The contour on osmand is payware.

Two wrong out of three right off the bat, and probably the third is wrong
too if we just want to look (but it's not something I care about so I
won't).

1. Satellite photos.
Google maps has this. So does Google Earth. I don't think they work
offline, so, they're both useless when the signal isn't there. But I don't
use Satellite photos for mapping because it's not my shtick so I won't look
further to find other apps that have offline satellite photos.

2. Countour overlay.
Are you talking topo maps? You think Google topo maps are good? You don't
know anything about topo maps if that's what you mean by "contour overlay".
In the USA, where I am, nothing beats USGS free contour maps. Nothing. And
they're free in so many free map apps that I won't even bother listing
them.

3. OSMand payware.
If you know anything about OSMAnd, you would know about OSMAnd~ which is
the payware legally for free. Even so, OSM maps suck compared to USGS maps
in the USA for the areas I've tested. OSM maps suck really badly actually,
by way of comparison to USGS maps. If you know me, I'd *love* for OSM maps
to be good - but fact is - they're just not.

[Roy Tremblay]

Chris in Makati <ma...@nospam.com> actually wrote:

> I just updated my offline maps on iOS and it says they expire in 29
> days.

Now that's funny.

I believe you, since I found that out years ago since I have both iOS and
Android devices.

It was funny then that iOS lasts 29 days while Android lasts 30 days.
And it's funny now.

Some day we'll find out who coded that, to ask why iOS is always less
functional than Android, even in something so utterly inconsequential.

[Roy Tremblay]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> actually wrote:

> today is the first day, plus 29 more, makes 30 days.

Then Android is 30 + 1.

Either way, it's still one day more.

It's meaningless though - which is why you argue it so vehemently.

[nospam]

In article <olbjru$jhr$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Roy Tremblay

<rembla...@nlnet.nl> wrote:

>
> >>That seems wasteful. Under what circumstances would you need to use
> >>mapping software without using traffic?
> >
> > I often use Google Maps just to find out where places are and plan
> > trips. You only need traffic information when actually traveling by
> > road.
>
> I agree with you that traffic is only needed when it's needed.
>
> The guy nospam listens only to marketing bs so he thinks traffic is
> required 24/7

i never said any such thing, you lying sack of shit.

> when, in reality, it's needed maybe once a month if that, and
> even then, only when on trips in highly unfamiliar territory or when
> there's an accident in unfamiliar territory.

nonsense. traffic info is needed whenever someone is driving in areas
prone to traffic problems.

> For the vast part of a typical commute, all the traffic is gonna tell you
> is what you could tell it, months in advance since the traffic is often the
> same all the time.

nonsense. one crash and free flowing traffic can turn into a crawl, and
more importantly, some apps can reroute around traffic on the fly.

> It's pretty to look at though, which is probably why nospam thinks it's
> needed 24/7. He likes pretty things.

you are truly an idiot.

[nospam]

In article <olbk1j$jmg$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Roy Tremblay

<rembla...@nlnet.nl> wrote:

>
> > today is the first day, plus 29 more, makes 30 days.
>
> Then Android is 30 + 1.

nope.

google expires the maps server side in 30 days for all devices.

> Either way, it's still one day more.
>
> It's meaningless though - which is why you argue it so vehemently.

i'm not the one arguing. it's *you* who is making a big deal over it,
trying to claim that ios sucks because of a one day difference, when in
reality, the maps will have been updated long before that point, at 15
days (link previously given).

[Roy Tremblay]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> actually wrote:

> google expires the maps server side in 30 days for all devices.

You should know by now that the fact you just make everything up only works
on the iOS newsgroups where the gullibles abound.

You just make everything up.
I back everything up.

My tests are all in the public record which I know bothers you because you
revel in just making stuff up.

Look here, for example.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.mobile.android/t7D0i6tNA4U/yTMBhIheI0QJ

========== here is just one of the relevant posts =============

I will also test this on Android.
0. The Android Google Maps version was 7.4.0 (#704001123)
1. The new version loaded today is now 8.0.0 (#800001323)
2. I then saved a few named map tiles (e.g., map1, map2, map3, etc.)
3. I pressed my Google Persona "View all and manage" button
4. They all said "Expires in 30 days".
5. In a day or so, I will press "update", to see if the expiry date
refreshes.

Two differences I saw between the iOS iPad and Android phone was
that the expiry date on iOS is 29 days while that of Android is
30 days. Go figure.

Also, the file size on iOS was roughly around 5 MB for each tile,
while similar tiles on Android were three times that size, at about
15 MB per map tile, in general.

But other than those two relatively minor differences, it seems
like the new Google Map offline list feature that SavageDuck
reported to us last Tuesday will allow us to prevent Google from
deleting the maps every 29 days (for iOS) or every 30 days (for
Android) if we manually press the "update" button for each and
every map tile.

Note: I'll check it tomorrow or the next day to see if it
will refresh back to 30 days when I press the "update" button.

In practice, that should work, but, what we should all ask
Google for (via their submit-feedback button) are the following:
obvious items:

a. Allow all map tiles to be updated en masse
(or an update-all checkbox)
b. Warn us when re-using a map tile name!
c. Suggest a name for the map tile
(if nothing else, the last name typed will work, so that we
can add a "1" or "2" or "east" or 'whatever').

--
People like nospam are perfect for iOS because they believe anything
marketing tells them to believe where actual proof of functionality is
anathema.

[Joerg Lorenz]

Am 26.07.17 um 23:28 schrieb Roy Tremblay:

> Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> actually wrote:
>
>> I set them to autoupdate but only over WiFi, I very rarely tether the
>> devices with maps over WiFi to a "pay-per-byte" connection, so why not?
>
> Thanks for that suggestion as I never even considered that they could
> autoupdate on Wi-Fi.
>
> It's been so long since I even opened a Google Map that I haven't kept up
> on what it can do.

Google Maps is the most accurate and powerful navigation tool, I know
of. It can be used either for the car, bicycle, pedestrian and public
transport. As such the maps should always be updated.

On 60 MB I drove through half of Europe online. Not bad. But it uses a
lot of battery.

[Piet]

Andy Burns wrote:
> I set them to autoupdate but only over WiFi

On my phone I have the options:
- auto-update offline maps
- auto-download offline maps

Thst's a bit confusing: auto-update without auto-download
looks pretty useless to me. Unless auto-update stands for
"checking for updates and getting a notification".

But it also has:
- Download preferences: wifi only | wifi or mobile
To me that suggests that "check for updates" will always
take place if auto-update is enabled, irrespective of the
available connection (wifi or mobile). Most likely a check
for updates will use a very small amount of data though.

-p

[Poutnik]

Dne 27.7.2017 v 12:04 Piet napsal(a):

In my understanding,
auto-download offline maps means auto caching online maps for later
offline use
auto-update means auto checks and updates of these cached maps.

Similar feature are avalable in locusMap application
for case of online raster maps, if data policy allows offline usage.

Download preference is clear.

[Chris in Makati]

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 22:24:04 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

>> I just updated my offline maps on iOS and it says they expire in 29
>> days.
>
>today is the first day, plus 29 more, makes 30 days.
>
>math is hard.

No. They expire 29 days after the time you update them. So if you
update them at 6pm they expire at 6pm 29 days later. That's 29 days.

Only you could twist 29 days into meaning 30 days.

[nospam]

In article <9tkjnct7675r6csbk...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

>
> >> I just updated my offline maps on iOS and it says they expire in 29
> >> days.
> >
> >today is the first day, plus 29 more, makes 30 days.
> >
> >math is hard.
>
> No. They expire 29 days after the time you update them. So if you
> update them at 6pm they expire at 6pm 29 days later. That's 29 days.

today counts as day 1. tomorrow, 1 day later, is day 2. 29 days later
is day 30.

[Roy Tremblay]

Joerg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> actually wrote:

> Google Maps is the most accurate and powerful navigation tool, I know
> of. It can be used either for the car, bicycle, pedestrian and public
> transport. As such the maps should always be updated.

I never once said Google Maps weren't accurate.

I've been using on-board navigation since we literally used laptops on our
lap, plugged into inverters, with dish-sized GPS units on the dash shelf.

That means I went through the entire series of Garmin GPS from StreetPilots
to nuvi's.

When Google Maps came out, it was astonishing at the time how much more
accurate they were than was everything else we were using, especially when
Google got into the lane-by-lane directions.

However, there are other free maps out there that are *offline* with full
capabilities which are just as accurate, such as the one free map that
comes with CoPilot (for the USA, anyway, as I haven't tested Europe).

I think that accurate free offline map is from "Navtech" but I'd have to
look it up.

Also, the "countour" maps from Google are inferior, in reality, compared to
the USGS maps, where, again, the difference is astounding when you need it
most, which is when you're offline.

I do agree that the OSM maps, while "good enough" for road travel, are
vastly inferior (in all my local tests) in mountainous country such as
where I live. In a flat desert or the midwest plains, I'm sure the OSM maps
are far less inaccurate than they are here in the mountains.

That's too bad because I love the concept of OSM maps.
They're just not there yet.
But they might be, in a few years.

> On 60 MB I drove through half of Europe online. Not bad. But it uses a
> lot of battery.

Also a lot of us when traveling to Europe don't have as much cellular as we
have when traveling in the USA, so, again, an offline map is required.

Having an offline map is like having a bottle of water with you when you
hike.

You may not need it; but when you want it, you're glad you brought it.

[Roy Tremblay]

Piet <www.godfatherof.nl/@opt-in.invalid> actually wrote:

> On my phone I have the options:
> - auto-update offline maps
> - auto-download offline maps

It's not my shtick to log into anything, so, may I ask if that option
exists only for those who actually "sign in" into a Google account?

My Google Maps is version 7.0.2 on Android, where I don't see those
settings.

All I have in settings is:
a. Sign in (I never sign in)
b. Google location settings (turned off unless/until needed)
c. Improve your location (yeah, right)
d. Distance units (automatic)
e. Send feedback (yeah, right)
f. Shake to send feedback (off)
g. Tutorials & help
h. About, terms & privacy

When I view a map, I can type "ok maps" which will download the map saying
"Pre-loading map...99%"
"The on-screen map area has been cached"

Where is this setting to automatically update the map cache?

[Roy Tremblay]

Chris in Makati <ma...@nospam.com> actually wrote:

> No. They expire 29 days after the time you update them. So if you
> update them at 6pm they expire at 6pm 29 days later. That's 29 days.
>
> Only you could twist 29 days into meaning 30 days.

There is something odd about nospam in that he loves to argue where he just
makes up what he wants to argue about.

It's not so much that he doesn't know the facts as he just makes up
everything by his very nature, so, actual facts don't matter in his world.

[Chris in Makati]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 09:13:04 -0400, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

No. You can name the days however you like, but calling the last day
"day 30" doesn't mean you get 30 days out of an update.

Google Maps on iOS says "Expires in 29 days". That's 696 hours from
the time you update. There's no way 696 hours can be construed as 30
days.

[Chris in Makati]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2017 15:13:01 +0000 (UTC), Roy Tremblay
<rmbla...@nlnet.nl> wrote:

>Chris in Makati <ma...@nospam.com> actually wrote:
>
>> No. They expire 29 days after the time you update them. So if you
>> update them at 6pm they expire at 6pm 29 days later. That's 29 days.
>>
>> Only you could twist 29 days into meaning 30 days.
>
>There is something odd about nospam in that he loves to argue where he just
>makes up what he wants to argue about.

It's funny to watch when he boxes himself into a corner. He'll argue
that black is white rather than admit he was mistaken about something.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-07-27 04:41, Roy Tremblay wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> actually wrote:
>
>> Satellite photos?
>> Contour overlay?
>>
>> The contour on osmand is payware.
>
> Two wrong out of three right off the bat, and probably the third is wrong
> too if we just want to look (but it's not something I care about so I
> won't).
>
> 1. Satellite photos.
> Google maps has this. So does Google Earth. I don't think they work
> offline, so, they're both useless when the signal isn't there. But I don't
> use Satellite photos for mapping because it's not my shtick so I won't look
> further to find other apps that have offline satellite photos.

I use the photos sometimes to check reliability of the map, like the
road having a different curve or street. And sometimes, the maps misses
features that are in the photos.

> 2. Countour overlay.
> Are you talking topo maps? You think Google topo maps are good? You don't
> know anything about topo maps if that's what you mean by "contour overlay".
> In the USA, where I am, nothing beats USGS free contour maps. Nothing. And
> they're free in so many free map apps that I won't even bother listing
> them.

But I don't live in the USA.

>
> 3. OSMand payware.
> If you know anything about OSMAnd, you would know about OSMAnd~ which is
> the payware legally for free.

The app and the maps are free, but the contours are not displayed unless
you add certain addon, that is, AFAIK, payware.

> Even so, OSM maps suck compared to USGS maps
> in the USA for the areas I've tested. OSM maps suck really badly actually,
> by way of comparison to USGS maps. If you know me, I'd *love* for OSM maps
> to be good - but fact is - they're just not.

But USGS maps are useless for me. Too far.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Frank Slootweg]

Chris in Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

nospam probably was (is?) a travel agent who sells "8-day" holidays,
which are actually a little over 6 days.

[Roy Tremblay]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> actually wrote:

> I use the photos sometimes to check reliability of the map, like the
> road having a different curve or street. And sometimes, the maps misses
> features that are in the photos.

Thank you for bringing up a good point.

I agree with you that there are some great uses for Satellite Maps which,
AFAIK, only Google has (Google Maps & Google Earth). Unfortunately, both
only work online, which means when you're hiking, you have a 50:50 chance
of them working (depending on where you hike).

I do agree though, at times, that when you have cellular, the Satellite Map
can be useful. For example, let's say you're stuck in the chaparral on a
steep mountainside, where you just want to get out in a direction that
doesn't get steeper.

The offline contour map will give you the direction, but it doesn't tell
you where the chaparral is thinnest. So in a case where you're seeking a
bald spot, or a big lone tree, or a big rock, the online Satellite Maps can
be useful.

Of course, if you don't have cellular, they're useless, which is a key
reason to not rely on them.

>> In the USA, where I am, nothing beats USGS free contour maps.

> But I don't live in the USA.

Ah. So it's a fair point for those who don't live in the USA, that Google
Contour Maps might be the best game in town.

The USGS maps only work for the USA where they are the best game in town.
I wish OSM maps would catch up, but they're still far behind USGS maps.

>> If you know anything about OSMAnd, you would know about OSMAnd~ which is
>> the payware legally for free.
>
> The app and the maps are free, but the contours are not displayed unless
> you add certain addon, that is, AFAIK, payware.

Thank you for bringing up this reasonable point about OSMAnd contour
additions. I use OSMAnd~ (note the tilde), which is, AFAIK, the freeware
verson of the payware.

However I use MyTrails as my offline free contour map program (with USGS
maps) so I don't have experience using OSMAnd~ with contour maps (and I
wouldn't have even tested that feature since I already know OSM contour
maps suck compared to USGS contour maps).

However, your point, for people outside the USA seems to be valid.
My only question would be whether OSMAnd~ (note the tilde) has all the
features you want, as I always thought OSMAnd~ was the payware version of
OSMAnd (note the lack of tilde).

Last I checked, OSMAnd~ (note the tilde) was open source freeware so that
generally means good things are added.

Searching, this doesn't say anything about paying for the necessary plugin:
http://osmand.net/features?id=contour-lines-plugin

Searching more, OSMAnd (note the lack of tilde) is open source.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand
http://osmand.net/features

So my assumption was that OSMAnd~ has everything that you say the payware
OSMAnd has but I'm trying to find confirmation of that by searching.

Searching for OSMAnd~ features, I can't even find it anymore.

I just find OSMAnd (note the lack of tilde) stuff:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OsmAnd

I definitely have the OSMAnd~ (Note the tilde) APK, so, I haven't looked in
a while for it. Maybe OSMAnd~ doesn't exist online anymore?

[Roy Tremblay]

Chris in Makati <ma...@nospam.com> actually wrote:

>>> No. They expire 29 days after the time you update them. So if you
>>> update them at 6pm they expire at 6pm 29 days later. That's 29 days.
>>
>>today counts as day 1. tomorrow, 1 day later, is day 2. 29 days later
>>is day 30.
>
> No. You can name the days however you like, but calling the last day
> "day 30" doesn't mean you get 30 days out of an update.
>
> Google Maps on iOS says "Expires in 29 days". That's 696 hours from
> the time you update. There's no way 696 hours can be construed as 30
> days.

Sometimes I wish I had a psychology degree because one has to wonder why
people like nospam can't admit that 29 days is what iOS uses while 30 days
is what Google uses.

It's not like it matters either way.
It's just an easily verifiable fact.

Facts don't have emotions attached to them, so, there is no need for nospam
to twist in the wind mentally when he's found to be wrong (which is most of
the time because he lives in a world devoid of fact).

How people can exist who live in a world swirling with emotion without a
single fact backing them up is what is interesting to me, from a
psychological standpoint, about nospam.

[Roy Tremblay]

Chris in Makati <ma...@nospam.com> actually wrote:

>>There is something odd about nospam in that he loves to argue where he just
>>makes up what he wants to argue about.
>
> It's funny to watch when he boxes himself into a corner. He'll argue
> that black is white rather than admit he was mistaken about something.

I agree.

That's the interesting thing about people like nospam, who have more than
one psychological trait that causes them to twist in the wind when they
jump to erroneous conclusions and then force themselves to declare that 29
is 30 and that 30 is 30.

As I referenced with a URL already, I tested the iOS and Android map
caching feature rather thoroughly 3 years ago when I first found out about
it. I just thought it was odd that iOS was 29 days while Android was 30.

Then, nospam said it's 30 for both in this thread, where I thanked him in
my response, because my last extensive tests had been three years old (and
I admitted that openly).

Then you kindly tested it, and found that nothing seems to have changed in
the 3 years since I last tested it, where I thanked you for that
confirmation. Had it been 30 days for both iOS and Android, I still would
have thanked you for that confirmation.

You see, to people like you and me, a fact is just that. It's a fact.
If it's 29, then it's 29. If it's 30, then it's 30.
It's just a fact.

But to people like nospam, it's an emotion.

[Roy Tremblay]

Chris in Makati <ma...@nospam.com> actually wrote:

>>> No. They expire 29 days after the time you update them. So if you
>>> update them at 6pm they expire at 6pm 29 days later. That's 29 days.
>>>
>>> Only you could twist 29 days into meaning 30 days.
>>
>>There is something odd about nospam in that he loves to argue where he just
>>makes up what he wants to argue about.
>
> It's funny to watch when he boxes himself into a corner. He'll argue
> that black is white rather than admit he was mistaken about something.

[Roy Tremblay]

Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> actually wrote:

>> No. They expire 29 days after the time you update them. So if you
>> update them at 6pm they expire at 6pm 29 days later. That's 29 days.
>>
>> Only you could twist 29 days into meaning 30 days.
>
> nospam probably was (is?) a travel agent who sells "8-day" holidays,
> which are actually a little over 6 days.

I find people like nospam interesting from a psychological standpoint,
since they seem to prey on the gullible.

In any ng outside the iOS newsgroups, he consistently gets his head handed
to him by logical people, so, he's just used to a far more gullible crowd
than the average Linux or Android users are.

What's immensely interesting is that he seems to be insisting that 29 days
is 30 days for iOS, but not that 30 days is 31 days for Android, so, his
ideas don't even follow through logically.

The sad thing is that there are *many* people like nospam, who are so
illogical in their thought processes, that it makes me sad to think that
they are allowed to vote (since these purely emotional people seem to
outnumber us logical thinkers).

To nospam, he'll just make up anything to back up his emotions.
It works perfectly for him on the iOS newsgroups.
Yet other newsgroups (e.g., Linux & Android & Photography) hand him his
head (rightly so).

I find it interesting how he can thrive on the iOS newsgroups, and yet,
nowhere else (AFAICT) are the general clientele as naive & gullible.

[Frank Slootweg]

Roy Tremblay <rmbla...@nlnet.nl> wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> actually wrote:

[...]

> >> If you know anything about OSMAnd, you would know about OSMAnd~ which is
> >> the payware legally for free.
> >
> > The app and the maps are free, but the contours are not displayed unless
> > you add certain addon, that is, AFAIK, payware.
>
> Thank you for bringing up this reasonable point about OSMAnd contour
> additions. I use OSMAnd~ (note the tilde), which is, AFAIK, the freeware
> verson of the payware.

[...]

> Last I checked, OSMAnd~ (note the tilde) was open source freeware so that
> generally means good things are added.
>
> Searching, this doesn't say anything about paying for the necessary plugin:
> http://osmand.net/features?id=contour-lines-plugin

If you look on that page, you'll see - under 'Features' a 'OsmAnd
Purchases' link which brings you to
<http://osmand.net/features?id=osmand_purchases>, which has a 'Contour
Lines' link, which brings you to the 'Contour Lines' part of the page,
which has a 'Get contour lines' link, which brings you to
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid>
which shows that it's a paid plugin.

In the OsmAnd+ app (the paid version), Menu -> Plugins -> Contour
Lines -> GET, will also show you that it's a paid plugin and will bring
you to the same Google Play page.

[...]

> Searching more, OSMAnd (note the lack of tilde) is open source.
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand
> http://osmand.net/features
>
> So my assumption was that OSMAnd~ has everything that you say the payware
> OSMAnd has but I'm trying to find confirmation of that by searching.
>
> Searching for OSMAnd~ features, I can't even find it anymore.
>
> I just find OSMAnd (note the lack of tilde) stuff:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OsmAnd
>
> I definitely have the OSMAnd~ (Note the tilde) APK, so, I haven't looked in
> a while for it. Maybe OSMAnd~ doesn't exist online anymore?

I have never heard of a tilde version. Perhaps it was just a
downloaded copy of the free version or a hacked paid version.

For at least three years, the (official) versions have been:

- 'OsmAnd': Free with limited number of downloads
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand>
(I don't see a download limit on the current page. The OsmAnd website
says 7 free downloads.)

- 'OsmAnd+': The paid version and worth every penny.
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus>

For more details see <http://osmand.net/features?id=start>.

[Roy Tremblay]

Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> actually wrote:

> If you look on that page, you'll see - under 'Features' a 'OsmAnd
> Purchases' link which brings you to
> <http://osmand.net/features?id=osmand_purchases>, which has a 'Contour
> Lines' link, which brings you to the 'Contour Lines' part of the page,
> which has a 'Get contour lines' link, which brings you to
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid>
> which shows that it's a paid plugin.

Thanks Frank for clarifying this as my search came up empty, and I don't
use OSMAnd~ (note the tilde) for anything but road mapping (because contour
lines in OSM just don't cut the mustard in the USA compared to USGS maps).

> In the OsmAnd+ app (the paid version), Menu -> Plugins -> Contour
> Lines -> GET, will also show you that it's a paid plugin and will bring
> you to the same Google Play page.

Ah. That reminded me that there are (were?) three versions:
OSMAnd (note the lack of postfix)
OSMAnd+ (note the plus sign)
OSMAnd~ (note the tilde)

> I have never heard of a tilde version. Perhaps it was just a
> downloaded copy of the free version or a hacked paid version.

I've had it, like all my APKs, for so long (years) that I don't remember
where I got it from. It's definitely OSMAnd~ because it says it is, and I
never changed the name.

> For at least three years, the (official) versions have been:
> - 'OsmAnd': Free with limited number of downloads
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand>
> (I don't see a download limit on the current page. The OsmAnd website
> says 7 free downloads.)
> - 'OsmAnd+': The paid version and worth every penny.
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus>

I think, but am no longer sure, that there are (were?) three versions:
OSMAnd (free with limits)
OSMAnd+ (payware)
OSMAnd~ (the payware, for free)

Here's what I can tell you about the free OSMAnd~ version on my phone:
Majeur Application Info reports that there are two "things" I have:
OsmAnd~ 2.5.4, net.osmand.plus User, 83.30MB
OsmAnd Contour lines 1.0, net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid User, 76KB

The APKs are stored at:
/data/app/net.osmand.plus-1.apk
/data/app/net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid-2.apk

The Checkey utility reports similar information in addition to signature
information (encryption I guess) where I notice that the certificate issuer
is "CN=FDroid" and the SHA256 hash is as follows for each "thing":
net.osmand.plus SHA256=38294eaac95c3bb5a994692cd7758f8bcdbffb4081
net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid a61f923e381d5b05ef384df4b435f8443d509c8414

Do you recommend any other utility to give us more info about existing apps
(like where they came from)?

[Roy Tremblay]

Roy Tremblay <rmbla...@nlnet.nl> actually wrote:

> Here's what I can tell you about the free OSMAnd~ version on my phone:
> Majeur Application Info reports that there are two "things" I have:
> OsmAnd~ 2.5.4, net.osmand.plus User, 83.30MB
> OsmAnd Contour lines 1.0, net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid User, 76KB
>
> The APKs are stored at:
> /data/app/net.osmand.plus-1.apk
> /data/app/net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid-2.apk
>
> The Checkey utility reports similar information in addition to signature
> information (encryption I guess) where I notice that the certificate issuer
> is "CN=FDroid" and the SHA256 hash is as follows for each "thing":
> net.osmand.plus SHA256=38294eaac95c3bb5a994692cd7758f8bcdbffb4081
> net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid a61f923e381d5b05ef384df4b435f8443d509c8414

I haven't researched maps in a long while (years) but when I did, I knew
more than anyone on this forum, at that time (I wrote a few articles on the
topic also at that time).

But my information can easily be dated so I ran a quick search just now to
backup my assertion that only a fool (or a lazy person) pays for what is
already easily available for free.

This confirms my original thought that there are (were?) 3 versions:
free (crippled)
paid + (not crippled)
free ~ (not crippled)
https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/42079/differences-between-osmand-and-osmand

A bit of googling on F-Droid finds OSMAnd~ Version 2.6.3, Apr 30, 2017:
https://f-droid.org/packages/net.osmand.plus/
https://f-droid.org/repo/net.osmand.plus_263.apk
https://f-droid.org/wiki/page/net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid

There's a discussion about the contour lines in that free version:
https://forum.f-droid.org/t/osmand-contour-lines-and-hillsides-plugin/649

Here's a discussion specifically about the tilde version:
https://forum.f-droid.org/t/what-has-happend-to-osmand/823/3

I don't generally update any APKs unless I know there is something useful
in the newer APK (generally that's not the case), but what I might do is
try this free contour plugin in my version (OSMAnd~) since I already seem
to have it installed (which I must have gotten long ago when I was
researching the best offline map apps for Android).

Let me know if anything I say above is incorrect as I strive to always
state verifiable facts - but some of this is taxing my memory.

[Erilar]

They expire? What kind of maps? Besides, google's maps are not
particularly accurate in thinly-populated areas like mine. Apple's maps are
better.
>



--
biblioholic medievalist via iPad

[Roy Tremblay]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> actually wrote:

> The contour on osmand is payware.

This simple statement above is *perfect* to prove my point that it takes
effort and intelligence to use freeware to its best advantage.

Case in point is that we just proved (in another thread) that the contour
capability on the opensource OSMAnd~ software is legitimately free.

Here's a cut and paste of my test, but the net is that the contour feature
of OSMAnd~ version 2.5.4 (and the latest version of 2.5.6) is completely
and legitimately free.

You just have to know what you're doing, that's all.
Which was always my main point about freeware.

It takes intelligence and effort to find the right freeware to do the job.

======== copy of a post in the other thread ==========
The hardest part of freeware is the intelligence required to use it.

So, together, let's clarify for everyone what's available on Android for
OSMAnd maps (e.g., contour lines & hillside shading, for free).

In another recent thread, it was brought up that there are two versions of
OSMAnd, namely:
OSMAnd (which apparently doesn't do contour lines, for free)
OSMAnd+ (which apparently does do contour lines)
Where I noted that my Android phone has a freeware version of:
OSMAnd~ (which I understood to be the payware functionality, for free)

It has been so long since I installed OSMAnd~ that I can only tell you what
my own machine is telling me, which is...

Majeur Application Info reports that there are two "things" I have:
OsmAnd~ 2.5.4, net.osmand.plus User, 83.30MB
OsmAnd Contour lines 1.0, net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid User, 76KB

The APKs are stored at:
/data/app/net.osmand.plus-1.apk
/data/app/net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid-2.apk
The Checkey utility reports similar information in addition to signature
information (encryption I guess) where I notice that the certificate issuer
is "CN=FDroid" and the SHA256 hash is as follows for each "thing":
net.osmand.plus SHA256=38294eaac95c3bb5a994692cd7758f8bcdbffb4081
net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid a61f923e381d5b05ef384df4b435f8443d509c8414

This confirms my original thought that there are (were?) 3 versions:
free (crippled)
paid + (not crippled)
free ~ (not crippled)
https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/42079/differences-between-osmand-and-osmand

A bit of googling on F-Droid finds OSMAnd~ Version 2.6.3, Apr 30, 2017:
https://f-droid.org/packages/net.osmand.plus/
https://f-droid.org/repo/net.osmand.plus_263.apk
https://f-droid.org/wiki/page/net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid

There's a discussion about the contour lines in that free version:
https://forum.f-droid.org/t/osmand-contour-lines-and-hillsides-plugin/649

Here's a discussion specifically about the tilde version:
https://forum.f-droid.org/t/what-has-happend-to-osmand/823/3

Given that, I think the main question is whether the OSMAnd~ version really
does give you the OSMAnd+ capabilities, for free.

Since I rarely use OSMAnd~, I can't really say for sure what it does.
Does anyone have more detail than I listed above?

For the record, I decided to test contour line capability of the open
source freeware OSMAnd~ version 2.5.4 that I had, unused, on my Android
phone for a while.

I thought this might show contour lines:
OSMAnd~: Hamburger > Configure map > Map style > Vector renderer > Topo
OSMAnd~: Hamburger > Configure map > Other map attributes > Show contour
lines > 16
But, that didn't show any contour lines.

I checked for the presence of the plugin, and it was enabled:
OSMAnd~: Hamburger > Plugins > Countour Lines > Enabled

Then I realized I likely needed to download a special contour map:
OSMAnd~: Hamburger > Download maps > North America > United States of
America > California > Contour lines (408.0MB, Jun 30, 2017)

And maybe even a special shading map:
OSMAnd~: Hamburger > Download maps > North America > United States of
America > California > Hillshades (120.0MB, Mar 22, 2016)

Voila!
Contour lines in the free opensource OSMAnd~ maps, version 2.5.4.

It took some effort, but contour lines are there. For free.
No need to buy them like the original poster said he had to.

That's what I love about this ng!
We can get stuff done together that nobody alone can do on their own!
======== copy of a post in the other thread ==========

So thanks to Carlos E.R. for pointing out the question to resolve, which is
how to get contour lines in OSMAnd~, legitimately for free.

As always, any fool or lazy person can pay for functionality (millions do).

It takes intelligence and effort to get that functionality for free.

Note however, that this is only useful for people like Carlos E.R. who
don't have access to free USGS topo maps, which are far better than OSM
topo maps in every case I studied.

[Roy Tremblay]

Roy Tremblay <rmbla...@nlnet.nl> actually wrote:

> Here's a cut and paste of my test, but the net is that the contour feature
> of OSMAnd~ version 2.5.4 (and the latest version of 2.5.6) is completely
> and legitimately free.
>
> You just have to know what you're doing, that's all.
> Which was always my main point about freeware.

I just tested the free contour map feature with the latest version of
OSMAnd~ freeware (version 2.6.2) and it works just fine to show contour
lines and hillside shading legitimately for free.

While I've always said that any fool or lazy person can pay for
functionality that they could have gotten for free, I thank Carlos E.R. for
pointing this technicality out and I do not intimate that he is a fool or
that he is lazy.

I am just saying that it takes effort and intelligence to find the freeware
solution where to find a payware solution takes neither.

The "cost" of freeware is in the intelligence required and the effort
expended to find and learn to use the best out there.

If you're in the USA, then this OSMAnd~ solution is NOT the best way to
obtain accurate offline contour maps - but if you're outside the USA, this
open source F-Droid OSMAnd~ solution might be the best way available to
you.

[Roy Tremblay]

Erilar <dra...@chibardun.netinvalid> actually wrote:

> They expire? What kind of maps? Besides, google's maps are not
> particularly accurate in thinly-populated areas like mine. Apple's maps are
> better.

Hi Erilar,

What we're talking about is the fact that you can zoom into any area of
Google Maps while online and then type into the Google Map search bar the
two words "ok maps", and Google Maps will walk you through the process of
"saving" that map tile for offline use into your "map cache".

There are good reasons for saving map tiles for offline use, but one
technicality is that Google nags you to update them every month. (It's a
long story on the Android newsgroup, where nospam insists they expire in 30
days on both iOS and on Android but let's ignore that technicality for
now.)

Point is that you can set the Google Maps to automatically update those
cached offline map tiles when you're on WiFi, so, in reality, it's a moot
point if you have your settings intelligently set as to how often the
offline cached map tiles need to be updated.

The main reasons for wanting offline map tiles is that you can't always
rely on cellular signal, and, in some cases (e.g., in my case where I only
have the free 200MB/month T-Mobile data plan on my iPads) you want to be
intelligent about using your cellular data only when it's actually needed.

Hope that helps answer your question.

If not, feel free to ask as we have a nicely detailed thread on the Android
newsgoup on how to intelligently use freeware for all your mapping needs.

[Chris in Makati]

According to nospam's method of counting there are 25 hours in a day,
8 days in the week and 13 months in the year.

[dorayme]

In article <olgkd4$91d$2...@dont-email.me>,

Erilar <dra...@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:

> They expire? What kind of maps?

You can save a map area (up to a certain file size, so as not to
overwhelm your storage capacity for one reason) for use when you are
offline. Whatever Google's reason for expiring, it can be useful for
the user too, freeing up your storage space if you forget to delete it
later. Good if you are tripping about in a strange country and need
them for a very few weeks.

--
dorayme

[Roy Tremblay]

dorayme <do_r...@bigpond.com> actually wrote:

> You can save a map area (up to a certain file size, so as not to
> overwhelm your storage capacity for one reason) for use when you are
> offline. Whatever Google's reason for expiring, it can be useful for
> the user too, freeing up your storage space if you forget to delete it
> later. Good if you are tripping about in a strange country and need
> them for a very few weeks.

I don't use the Google Map offline cache all that often (since better
alternatives exist) but are you sure the expire means "delete"?

I was under the impression that the expiry date effectively means that
Google just nags you to death - but not that the maps are "deleted".

Google just wants you to "update" them, was what I had thought.
Are you sure they're auto deleted? (I didn't think they were ever deleted
but I haven't tested this extensively in 3 years so they could have changed
their methods.)

[nospam]

In article <vm2lnchkm96bopm3p...@4ax.com>, Chris in

Makati <ma...@nospam.com> wrote:

> >> No. They expire 29 days after the time you update them. So if you
> >> update them at 6pm they expire at 6pm 29 days later. That's 29 days.
> >
> >today counts as day 1. tomorrow, 1 day later, is day 2. 29 days later
> >is day 30.
>
> No. You can name the days however you like, but calling the last day
> "day 30" doesn't mean you get 30 days out of an update.

google's servers expire maps in 30 days.

do you really think google special cases ios to be 29 days for some
unknown reason while leaving android at 30 days? what would be the
point in that??

[dorayme]

In article <oli67m$v3s$3...@gioia.aioe.org>,
Roy Tremblay <rmbla...@nlnet.nl> wrote:

...

> I was under the impression that the expiry date effectively means that
> Google just nags you to death - but not that the maps are "deleted".
>
> Google just wants you to "update" them, was what I had thought.
> Are you sure they're auto deleted? (I didn't think they were ever deleted
> but I haven't tested this extensively in 3 years so they could have changed
> their methods.)

This is the official G:

<https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform
=iOS>

--
dorayme

[Roy Tremblay]

dorayme <do_r...@bigpond.com> actually wrote:

> This is the official G:
>
> <https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform
> =iOS>

Thanks for citing that page on the offline Google Maps.
https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838

Everything is in the details, where the "saving" was as I had originally
stated, which is that the ability to save offline map tiles doesn't save
any memory space (in fact, it uses up memory space).

There is no indication that I know of that the automatic nag after about a
month to "update" the cached map tiles actually ever "deletes" them.

I did find at least one incorrect statement in that Google help page
though, which is that it implies you need to "sign in" to Google Maps, but
I never sign in (I don't even have a Google account for that, nor is Google
Play on my Android phone) and I can still save offline map tiles easily.

I just checked by turning off my WiFi and my cellular data and then opening
Google Maps after having saved a map tile. The map tile displayed fine,
until I scrolled to its edge where the area outside the previously cached
map tile abruptly stopped displaying clearly.

One caveat on my test results are that I never update an app unless I know
there's something I want in the update, so I'm still on a version of the
Google Map app that has to be a few years old. Checking the version, it
appears to be
Google Maps: Hamburger > Settings > About, terms & privacy >
Google Maps Version 7.0.2 (c) 2013 Google Inc

[dorayme]

In article <olj91r$n5j$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

Roy Tremblay <rmbla...@nlnet.nl> wrote:

> dorayme <do_r...@bigpond.com> actually wrote:
>
> > This is the official G:
> >
> > <https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform
> > =iOS>
>
> Thanks for citing that page on the offline Google Maps.
> https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838
>
> Everything is in the details, where the "saving" was as I had originally
> stated, which is that the ability to save offline map tiles doesn't save
> any memory space (in fact, it uses up memory space).
>

Yes, of course, saving offline map areas to your tablet must take up
storage space (just like any cached item).

> There is no indication that I know of that the automatic nag after about a
> month to "update" the cached map tiles actually ever "deletes" them.

It is true that words to the effect it deletes stored maps is hard to
find, I did read that it reminds after 15 days and "expires" after 30.
Let's make an experiment then with the latest GMaps, save a map and
wait a month to see what happens. An example of having to go back to
the days of the horse and buggy and find out an old fashioned way. <g>

Considering that it G allows you to save to an SD, it does not sound
as if they are interested in deletions at a distance. Perhaps
expiration just means that you can still use the expired map but if
you go over a cliff because the road system has been since changed and
reflected in an updated map, survivors or loved ones cannot get
compensation from G. Best not to experiment on this one.

--
dorayme

[Roy Tremblay]

dorayme <do_r...@bigpond.com> actually wrote:

> Yes, of course, saving offline map areas to your tablet must take up
> storage space (just like any cached item).

We agree.

>> There is no indication that I know of that the automatic nag after about a
>> month to "update" the cached map tiles actually ever "deletes" them.
>
> It is true that words to the effect it deletes stored maps is hard to
> find, I did read that it reminds after 15 days and "expires" after 30.

I agree with you that Google makes it supremely unclear what happens if you
ignore their nag to update after "n" days.

Given that I don't update mine, I think they last forever.
And so does Google's nag to update them. :)

My Google Map app is circa 2013, for example, so I should check if long-ago
downloaded map tiles still are there.

> Let's make an experiment then with the latest GMaps, save a map and
> wait a month to see what happens. An example of having to go back to
> the days of the horse and buggy and find out an old fashioned way. <g>

Personally, I find Google Maps only useful for its free traffic, so, I only
use "ok maps" to test things for the team, which I tested extensively and
reported upon years ago for both the iOS and Android newsgroups.

The key problem with Google Maps is that they essentially don't work well
offline, and anyone who relies on always being online is, in a word, a
fool.

The offline free map programs work as well and have as accurate maps, if
you know what you're doing (where, as always, the intelligence and effort
to find the good ones is the true cost of freeware).

I realize most people aren't intelligent enough to find good alternatives
to Google Maps that work far better and just as accurately offline.

While I'm far smarter than the vast majority of posters here, even I'm not
intelligent enough to find a free offline traffic-reporting app that works
better than Google Maps does online! :)

> Considering that it G allows you to save to an SD, it does not sound
> as if they are interested in deletions at a distance.

I agree with you.
I suspect that, if I look, I'll find the cached map tiles of my long-ago
downloaded Google Maps, still on my SD card.

NOTE: I habitually factory reset my phone about once a month and I rotate
SD cards, so it would be an effort to look for those long-ago cached map
tiles).

> Perhaps
> expiration just means that you can still use the expired map but if
> you go over a cliff because the road system has been since changed and
> reflected in an updated map, survivors or loved ones cannot get
> compensation from G. Best not to experiment on this one.

That's a good point!
Your supposition makes sense, in that it's likely to both you and to me
that Google doesn't actually "delete" the cached map tiles, but, that if
you relied on them, and then sued them for damages, they could say "well, I
told you that they had expired".

Makes sense to me, where I appreciate that you added value to the
conversation, and hence to our combined tribal knowledge.

In summary, it's likely that Google Maps will nag you to death to update
your cached map tiles, but that you can ignore that nag (and nothing
happens), or, better yet, in a newer version of Google Maps than I have
(mine is circa 2013), you can just turn on the automatic Wi-Fi update
feature (which may require logging into a Google account, which I don't
normally do).

So the only unanswered related question seems to be what value does logging
into a Google Account get you with respect to using offline cached map
tiles?

[dorayme]

In article <olkrgd$ugi$1...@gioia.aioe.org>,

Roy Tremblay <rmbla...@nlnet.nl> wrote:

> The key problem with Google Maps is that they essentially don't work well
> offline,

Not noticed this on my Pad? Offline saved maps seem to have worked
well for me. That is, when I come to look at an area (a week later
even) when I finally arrive there and I am not on the internet, the
details of the area are there.

There are two possibilities in my mind about this business of seeing
offline detail. One is that the consciously saved map stays in the
solid state memory of the iPad, written to file as it were. The other
is that there is caching when being online and the cached stays
awhile. I am unsure about the distinction between these two things. I
could make sense of it if caching is something that lasts a very
little time (as when you are on a website and a repeated image over
many pages is *not* downloaded many times) whereas conscious saving is
much more permanent.

Truth is, my tablet is more obscure to me than my desktops, the latter
having clear RAM and hard disks and I can make better mental pictures
of what is happening.

I am going to be very frank with you, I am a bit frightened of my iPad
and approach it very politely every day. My reward has been - so far -
that it has been very nice to me and seems to appreciate that I don't
do what I love doing with most things, getting my toolbox and
electronic gear out and fiddling inside devices and machines.

> While I'm far smarter than the vast majority of posters here, even I'm not
> intelligent enough to find a free offline traffic-reporting app that works
> better than Google Maps does online! :)
>

Yes, the traffic reporting, congestion feature (I see red lines
indicating build up) is brilliant. I have heard that they do it by
noting the signals from the mobile phones in cars. Which might give a
very rich person an idea to get a good run in their car: employ a
small army of folk with mobiles to go walking along the roads you want
to have a clear run at. No, sorry, that is very silly! <g>

...

> In summary, it's likely that Google Maps will nag you to death to update
> your cached map tiles, but that you can ignore that nag (and nothing
> happens), or, better yet, in a newer version of Google Maps than I have
> (mine is circa 2013), you can just turn on the automatic Wi-Fi update
> feature (which may require logging into a Google account, which I don't
> normally do).
>

I have not noticed being nagged but I believe you.

> So the only unanswered related question seems to be what value does logging
> into a Google Account get you with respect to using offline cached map
> tiles?

Mmm... That is a variable that I have not investigated. Maybe I have
been logged in a lot.

--
dorayme

[Roy Tremblay]

dorayme <do_r...@bigpond.com> actually wrote:

>> The key problem with Google Maps is that they essentially don't work well
>> offline,
>
> Not noticed this on my Pad? Offline saved maps seem to have worked
> well for me. That is, when I come to look at an area (a week later
> even) when I finally arrive there and I am not on the internet, the
> details of the area are there.

The map is there but the *routing* is what I was alluding to.
Specifically *re*-routing (i.e., going a different way than expected).

I tested offline cached Google Maps *rerouting* capabilities extensively
years ago when I last reported on free maps apps, where offline cached
Google Maps would not modify a route (say, if you took a wrong turn, for
example).

Do offline Google Map caches automatically re-route nowadays?

> There are two possibilities in my mind about this business of seeing
> offline detail. One is that the consciously saved map stays in the
> solid state memory of the iPad, written to file as it were. The other
> is that there is caching when being online and the cached stays
> awhile. I am unsure about the distinction between these two things.

That's a very good point you bring up which is that there can be two kinds
of map caches.
a. The online map caches itself in some manner just by using it online
b. An offline map can be manually cached & named using "ok maps".

> I
> could make sense of it if caching is something that lasts a very
> little time (as when you are on a website and a repeated image over
> many pages is *not* downloaded many times) whereas conscious saving is
> much more permanent.
>
> Truth is, my tablet is more obscure to me than my desktops, the latter
> having clear RAM and hard disks and I can make better mental pictures
> of what is happening.

Again a good point, but there is RAM and "storage" on a mobile device too,
but it's just not something that you can often physically see.

The CPU itself has its own dedicated fast RAM, and there is slower and
larger "storage" RAM, some of which is used up by the Operating System and
system apps just like in a desktop PC.

In the case of Android devices, there can also be an SD card, which is akin
to having a second hard drive on a computer.

> I am going to be very frank with you, I am a bit frightened of my iPad
> and approach it very politely every day. My reward has been - so far -
> that it has been very nice to me and seems to appreciate that I don't
> do what I love doing with most things, getting my toolbox and
> electronic gear out and fiddling inside devices and machines.

Like you, I don't open up my iPad or Android devices to fiddle with them,
other than to switch sd cards, which I do frequently.

> Yes, the traffic reporting, congestion feature (I see red lines
> indicating build up) is brilliant. I have heard that they do it by
> noting the signals from the mobile phones in cars.

Heh heh heh ... Google is *smart* about traffic. Way smarter than anyone
usually gives them credit for being. Actually ZipDash was the original
smarts for Google live traffic but they bought them more than a decade ago,
so, it's all Google now. Around 2009, Google integrated the current
crowdsourcing system (they used traffic sensors before that). [They also
added Waze around five years ago.]

You are correct that they use most people's devices to figure out the
traffic pattern, It's genius on their part, because it's so simple, and
obvious, and yet they're the first ones to do it that way.

I've had GPS and Garmin devices for decades, well before cellphones
existed, where some had traffic (I think sourced by Inrix), but where it
always sucked. The radio had traffic, and it always sucked. Google traffic
is pretty good by way of comparison. My phone doesn't contribute to the
traffic, but most people don't know how to set up their mobile device to
opt out, so they wittingly or unwittingly contribute to the traffic data
collection.

With respect to privacy, you have to always bear in mind that the
government and criminals are always greedy. Without understanding that
greed, you can never understand privacy. So, while Google may strive to
delete the data it collects, governments and criminals can (and do) tap
into that data for their nefarious purposes.

> Which might give a
> very rich person an idea to get a good run in their car: employ a
> small army of folk with mobiles to go walking along the roads you want
> to have a clear run at. No, sorry, that is very silly! <g>

Your point about money is similar to my point about greed. The government
and criminal enterprises are chock full of money which can be used to fund
their greed. If I had only a million bucks, it would be amazing what I
could do with that to spy on others - so imagine what the government and
criminals do with billions.

In a nearby town, they don't like people cutting across the streets to
skirt traffic so what some residents do is report fake accidents on their
road. It was reported in the news that the residents were actually planning
the fake accidents, so that multiple people would report the same fake
accident.

Eventually the town got into the act to ask Waze to stop directing people
through side streets, and from what I gathered, Waze told them to shove it.
So the town now habitually closes the roads, physically, after passing a
law that allows them to do that. They report it to Waze ahead of time so
that people aren't inconvenienced who don't know of the road closures ahead
of time (they put out signs for the local residents).

The only problem, as I see it, is that they close the road totally, so,
even local residents can't use it past that point.

>> So the only unanswered related question seems to be what value does logging
>> into a Google Account get you with respect to using offline cached map
>> tiles?
>
> Mmm... That is a variable that I have not investigated. Maybe I have
> been logged in a lot.

I don't see *any* value to being logged in other than the account will
remember your favorite places, whereas Google Maps for me, since I don't
log in, doesn't remember where I've been.

However, do remember that all iPhones that have Google Maps open and
Android phones that have location services turned on send your location and
speed to Google servers.

[dorayme]

In article <oln2ko$dfp$5...@gioia.aioe.org>,

Roy Tremblay <rmbla...@nlnet.nl> wrote:

> dorayme <do_r...@bigpond.com> actually wrote:
>
> >> The key problem with Google Maps is that they essentially don't work well
> >> offline,
> >
> > Not noticed this on my Pad? Offline saved maps seem to have worked
> > well for me. That is, when I come to look at an area (a week later
> > even) when I finally arrive there and I am not on the internet, the
> > details of the area are there.
>
> The map is there but the *routing* is what I was alluding to.
> Specifically *re*-routing (i.e., going a different way than expected).
>
> I tested offline cached Google Maps *rerouting* capabilities extensively
> years ago when I last reported on free maps apps, where offline cached
> Google Maps would not modify a route (say, if you took a wrong turn, for
> example).
>
> Do offline Google Map caches automatically re-route nowadays?

I would think not this. In fact, I sort of remember G saying
specifically that offline it cannot guide you with times and ways of
getting places (both routes and modes of transport). What we do when
touring is take snaps of the routes while on wifi or cellular before
setting out for the day (in case of no internet later).

--
dorayme

[Roy Tremblay]

dorayme <do_r...@bigpond.com> actually wrote:

> I would think not this. In fact, I sort of remember G saying
> specifically that offline it cannot guide you with times and ways of
> getting places (both routes and modes of transport). What we do when
> touring is take snaps of the routes while on wifi or cellular before
> setting out for the day (in case of no internet later).

Seems to me that the solution needs to fit the problem set, where, in my
case, the problem set is that the iPad has only the free 200MB/month from
T-Mobile, so, I need to conserve on map data.

The easiest way to conserve on map data is to use any free offline roadmap
app such as copilot on iOS whose (Navtech?) maps are as accurate as
Google's maps (IMHO). On Android, there are more free offline roadmap
choices, such as MapFactor Navigator or OSMAnd~ - but on either iOS or
Android, decent free offline roadmap apps abound.

In general, the free offline roadmap apps suck in only two ways that Google
Maps excel in, which are ad-hoc (a) traffic, and ad-hoc (b) POIs/Address
lookups.

For such ad-hoc things, then I can use Google Maps, momentarily, and then
go back to the offline map apps.

Of course, if you don't have a data constraint, and if you know that you'll
be on cellular 100% of the trip, and if you don't expect any difficult
ad-hoc lookups to be needed, then the online map apps are just fine.

Everything depends on the constraints where the intelligence is in coming
up with a solution that fits the constraints.

[Erilar]

Has no one here heard of maps.me? No wi- fi nor cellular connection needed
and it even talks you to your destination, including sorting out wrong
turns!

[M.L.]

>> In general, the free offline roadmap apps suck in only two ways that Google
>> Maps excel in, which are ad-hoc (a) traffic, and ad-hoc (b) POIs/Address
>> lookups.

CoPilot app occasionally updates POIs and maps when Internet becomes
available.

[Erilar]

Google maps are less accurate than Apple maps around here. Too rural? And
maps.me doesn't need wi-fi or a cellular connection. I can also mark a
location and it will get me as close or closer than either Apple or Google
maps.

[mjb...@gmail.com]

I downloaded six maps for an upcoming trip thinking they would all expire in 30 days. Half of them expired in 30 days but the other half expired today!
How does that help me be offline when I travel? Now I have to get a data plan or worry about finding wi-fi. Not cool Google!

[mike]

On 8/14/2018 7:06 PM, mjb...@gmail.com wrote:
> I downloaded six maps for an upcoming trip thinking they would all expire in 30 days. Half of them expired in 30 days but the other half expired today!
> How does that help me be offline when I travel? Now I have to get a data plan or worry about finding wi-fi. Not cool Google!
>

If you don't have a data plan, download a routing app.
Gives you a LOT more flexibility.
I like Mapfactor Navigator, but I'm in USA. YMMV

[Arlen Holder]

On 14 Aug 2018 19:52:13 GMT, mike wrote:

> If you don't have a data plan, download a routing app.
> Gives you a LOT more flexibility.
> I like Mapfactor Navigator, but I'm in USA. YMMV

I have *lots* of map apps, and I download the Google Map database offline.
<>

Problem is that the Google Maps used to only "say" they expire, but now
they actually do expire - and - they require a login to save them - which
is ridiculous.

Hence, it's no longer useful, IMHO, to download Google Maps unless you know
you're going on a trip in the next 30 days only.

I don't know *why* they have to expire (because they don't have to expire)
but I suspect Google wants 'control' over the database - where - admittedly
- they download a *lot* more than just the map data.

For example, on my WiFi only iPad, an offline Google Map still knows where
I am even though there is no GPS in that iPad, nor a data connection.
Google Maps can only be using the WiFi SSID/BSSID information to track me,
which means the offline map contains that information.

In short, unless you're going on a trip in the next 30 days, it's not
useful, IMHO, to download Google Maps offline anymore - and - I think they
expire just because Google wants them to - and - I can't tell you why yours
didn't all take the same amount of time as I haven't tracked it in a while.

It used to be that iOS downloads of teh Google Maps expire in 29 days while
Android expire in 30 days (which was odd but reproducible). Quirks abound.

[jpai...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, February 9, 2017 at 4:03:23 PM UTC-8, micky wrote:
> Why do google offline maps expire every n? days?
>
<snip>

Maps do change, too. They've since updated the expiration date to one year.

[The Real Bev]

When did that happen? Mine currently update to March 8 2020 (I updated
a few weeks ago). ... Wow, now good for a year! Yay!


--
Cheers, Bev
"The primary purpose of any government entity
is to employ the unemployable."

[Andy Burns]

The Real Bev wrote:

> jpai...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> micky wrote:
>>
>>> Why do google offline maps expire every n? days?
>>

>> They've since updated the expiration date to one year.
>
> When did that happen?

August 2018

[Anssi Saari]

The longer expiration date makes sense, Google Maps seem to change less
often than actual streets, at least for smaller streets. The "add
missing street" feature got me my home street on there but various other
local changes from over a decade ago are not getting there. Google still
routes car traffic through what's now a park among other
things. Curiously bigger local changes have been put in.

[I R A Darth Aggie]

On Wed, 19 Feb 2020 09:16:26 +0200,
Anssi Saari <a...@sci.fi>, in

The bigger changes may have been pushed forward by a government agency.

--
Consulting Minister for Consultants, DNRC
I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow
isn't looking good, either.
I am BOFH. Resistance is futile. Your network will be assimilated.

[The Real Bev]

Maybe on YOUR planet! My previous update a few weeks ago just gave me
another month.

--
Cheers, Bev
SAVE GAS, FART IN A JAR

[The Real Bev]

I really wish they'd put in a MAXIMIZE FREEWAY USE button. All of them.
I don't care if it's .25 mile shorter or half a minute faster, I don't
want to go on surface streets until I have to.

[Andy Burns]

The Real Bev wrote:

> I really wish they'd put in a MAXIMIZE FREEWAY USE button.

Over here we get an "avoid motorways" toggle, under settings, navigation
settings, route options ... along with toggles to avoid tolls and ferries.

[Andy Burns]

The Real Bev wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> August 2018
>
> Maybe on YOUR planet!  My previous update a few weeks ago just gave me
> another month.

From communication with another user who replied by email instead of on
the group, it seems USA users didn't get the feature as early as UK
users (for a change)

[The Real Bev]

And the Brits have the Queen too. I suppose it all evens out...

--
Cheers, Bev
I love the way Microsoft follows standards. In much the
same manner that fish follow migrating caribou.
-- Paul Tomblin

[The Real Bev]

Likewise, but I think the last time I saw a ferry was before we even had
a computer :-(

Surely I'm not the only one who wants to veg out on the freeway (or
maximize actual speed at any given point) until the very last minute.

I'd also like to see Diamond Lane entrances and exits in advance The
first time I used one (long ago; now I'd just break the law) I didn't
realize how far beyond my destination the next exit was.

At 80mph the tiny 'next exit' signs are illegible :-(