Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)

[F Murtz]

Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)

[Poutnik]

Dne 27/02/2017 v 08:21 F Murtz napsal(a):

> Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)

Search for very recent thread on the same topic,
starting FEB 19. Several ones work,
but none is ideal. I did not like
using Usenet with them.

My answer was :
....
I do not use Usenet client any more,
but when I did, I liked the most these two:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.piaohong.newsgroup
may be buggy, but better features, AFAIK

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.almarsoft.GroundhogReader
Less features, but looked better.


--
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )

A wise man guards words he says,
as they say about him more,
than he says about the subject.

[VanguardLH]

F Murtz wrote:

> Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)

The body of the message is to *elaborate* upon the Subject header. To
answer your inquiry: Yes, someone managed to get an Android newsreader
to work.

The one I remember seeing was from PiaoHong; however, most of those
users did not know how to configure it to NOT add a pseudo spam
signature (the sigdash was not legit and the client spamified the user's
message), just like the ones using Avast (on desktops) don't how to
configure it to NOT spamify their Usenet posts with a pseudo spam
signature. I have seen a few users posting with that client and they
did not have a pseudo spam sig. Maybe if you buy the app then it won't
spamify the submitted messages; however, I don't read Chinese so I don't
know what their site says (http://usenet.sinaapp.com/). Looks like an
error message: nothing on their web page and a "!" symbol, like the page
doesn't exist. When I try using Google Translate, it says "This page
was not retrieved from its original location over a secure connection.
Hmm, http was used, not https, so maybe they attempt to redirect to an
https page but it doesn't exist of its cert is fucked. I ran the
chicken marks on the landing page through Google Translate which said
"You visited the site does not exist! Please check if the URL you
entered is incorrect." I tried a few "is it down" sites to query
usenet.sinapp.com and they say it's down for them, too. Perhaps the
Great Firewall of China interceding?

Another one is Groundhog. If you search on "piaohong newsreader" or
"groundhog newsreader", you'll find forum posts where user report
problems with them (well, users reports problems with all software).
Well, these are apps, not robust and full programs designed to run on
desktops. I use both MS Outlook as a program on my desktop and as an
app on my smartphone. The app is nowhere close to the program regarding
features or even implementing its functions correctly. The app acts
like it uses IMAP (instead of EAS) and without support for IDLE or PUSH,
so messages deleted using the desktop client remain notified and listed
in the app on the phone (until I try to actually read the message when
then reports an error that the message isn't there ... duh!).

Are you looking to converse in text newsgroup? Or are you trying to
download its "blue" content (binaries)? For the latter, you'll probably
needs something like PowerNZB.

[mike]

On 2/26/2017 11:21 PM, F Murtz wrote:
> Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)

I don't use it a lot, but
net.piaohong.newsgroup seems to work.

[Ralph Fox]

F Murtz wrote:

> Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)

Sure. I have NewsGroup Reader working right now.
Search for "net.piaohong.newsgroup" on Google Play.

--
Kind regards
Ralph





----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

[Alexandre Janssens]

In <news:58b3d39c$0$32631$b1db1813$19ac...@news.astraweb.com>, F Murtz

<hag...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)

Does the smiley mean the question is a joke?

[Temitope Ayodeji Okafor]

In comp.mobile.android F Murtz wrote:
> Path: news.neodome.net!news.etla.org!feeder.erje.net!2.us.feeder.erje.net!news.alt.net!news.astraweb.com!border5.newsrouter.astraweb.com!not-for-mail
> Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android
> X-Mozilla-News-Host: news://news.astraweb.com:119
> From: F Murtz <hag...@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)
> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 18:21:57 +1100

>
> Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)

Been asked and answered a thousand times already.
No new information is going to result from this thread.
Not unless new information surfaced since Feb 19th when it was last asked.

The answer is here:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.mobile.android

See:
* What is a good free Usenet news reader for Android? 9/22/15
* usenet reader.5/14/13
* Newsgroup Reader.3/10/16
* Android Newsgroup Reader that doesn't suck?9/20/16
* Most populair and useful usenet client for text. 2/19/17
* Usenet.8/5/13
* Hint for another way to read Usenet newsgroups in a single tap.8/16/16
* Good Usenet Android client. 7/6/16
* Android NNTP client. 4/7/14
...

[Henry The Mole]

On 27/02/2017 08:21:57 F Murtz wrote:

> Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.piaohong.NewsReader

--
Henry The Mole.
"I cant' believe I ate the whole thing!"

[micky]

In comp.mobile.android, on Mon, 27 Feb 2017 02:46:38 -0600, VanguardLH

<V...@nguard.LH> wrote:

>F Murtz wrote:
>
>> Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)
>
>The body of the message is to *elaborate* upon the Subject header. To

I disagree. I see the subject header as equivalent to the title page
of a paper, which is followed on the next page by the body of the paper
which will have a copy of the title at the top and which will have all
the elements of the title in the first or second sentence of the first
paragraph.

In groups I read thoroughly, I just go from one post to the next, never
looking at the table of contents or the subject lines. When people
start writing in the middle of a thought, I find it a big distraction to
have to go to the subject line to find out what the post is talking
about.

>answer your inquiry: Yes, someone managed to get an Android newsreader
>to work.
>
>The one I remember seeing was from PiaoHong; however, most of those
>users did not know how to configure it to NOT add a pseudo spam

>signature (the sigdash was not legit....

[Arno Welzel]

F Murtz wrote:

> Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)

Since there are only two of them - good luck:

<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.piaohong.newsgroup>

<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.almarsoft.GroundhogReader>

In fact Usenet is nearly dead and only a fraction of the former users
are still here. There are less users than 20 years ago, before everbody
had cheap and easy internet access. So it's no wonder that nobody is
interested in clients for Android - even more when considering Tapatalk
and the thousands of web base forums which can be used with Tapatalk
(<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.quoord.tapatalkpro.activity>).


--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de
https://de-rec-fahrrad.de
http://fahrradzukunft.de

[VanguardLH]

micky wrote:

> In comp.mobile.android, on Mon, 27 Feb 2017 02:46:38 -0600, VanguardLH
> <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>>F Murtz wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)
>>
>>The body of the message is to *elaborate* upon the Subject header. To
>
> I disagree. I see the subject header as equivalent to the title page
> of a paper, which is followed on the next page by the body of the paper
> which will have a copy of the title at the top and which will have all
> the elements of the title in the first or second sentence of the first
> paragraph.

When you read a book, a letter, or any document, the entire content of
that material is in the title? Yeah, right.

> In groups I read thoroughly, I just go from one post to the next, never
> looking at the table of contents or the subject lines.

You read a lot of trash in Usenet then. For those too lazy to define
filters or don't know how, using their eyes to filter on the Subject is
their line of defense against wasting time on posts they don't want to
read or cannot help.

> When people start writing in the middle of a thought, I find it a big
> distraction to have to go to the subject line to find out what the
> post is talking about.

Who said starting in the middle? How old are you? I know you've read
books and letters and even e-mails. Do you e-mails have nothing in
their body other than what is in the Subject header?

[VanguardLH]

Temitope Ayodeji Okafor wrote:

> In comp.mobile.android F Murtz wrote:
>> Path: news.neodome.net!news.etla.org!feeder.erje.net!2.us.feeder.erje.net!news.alt.net!news.astraweb.com!border5.newsrouter.astraweb.com!not-for-mail
>> Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android
>> X-Mozilla-News-Host: news://news.astraweb.com:119
>> From: F Murtz <hag...@hotmail.com>
>> Subject: Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)
>> Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 18:21:57 +1100

Unless you are going to address something in the headers, there is no
need to quote them from the parent message.

>> Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)
>
> Been asked and answered a thousand times already.
> No new information is going to result from this thread.
> Not unless new information surfaced since Feb 19th when it was last asked.

Alas, many newbies (and sometimes even regulars) do not search to check
for on-topic threads before posting. However, I'm not sure "a thousand
times" is accurate or even close but rather an exaggeration. NNTP
servers have a retention on articles. Astraweb's (the OP's Usenet
provider) retains for 3000 days (www.astraweb.com/tools/stats.html).
I'm not interested in maintaining a local archive of all posts available
on any NNTP server and instead purge those over 30 days old, so that the
related posts may exist on the server is irrelevant to me because I'm
not bothering with checking for ancient posts.

Things change. New software appears, software changes, old software
dies off, different users visit a newsgroup, so what was the state of a
topic a week or a month or a year ago doesn't mean it's the same now.

Unfortunately the OP deliberately asked a vague question so answers are
just as unfocused.

[Ken Blake]

On Mon, 27 Feb 2017 18:34:50 +0100, Arno Welzel <use...@arnowelzel.de>
wrote:

>In fact Usenet is nearly dead

I'm not sure about "nearly," but it's on its way there.

>and only a fraction of the former users
>are still here.

Yep!

>There are less users than 20 years ago, before everbody
>had cheap and easy internet access. So it's no wonder that nobody is
>interested in clients for Android

I'm not interested in Usenet clients for Android, but that's not the
reason why. When I'm not on vacation, I access Usenet from the Forté
Agent on my desktop Windows 10 computer. When I'm away on vacation, I
have my Android phone with me, but I have no interest in spending any
of my vacation time on Usenet.

[VanguardLH]

Arno Welzel wrote:

> F Murtz wrote:
>
>> Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)
>
> Since there are only two of them - good luck:
>
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.piaohong.newsgroup>
>
> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.almarsoft.GroundhogReader>
>
> In fact Usenet is nearly dead and only a fraction of the former users
> are still here. There are less users than 20 years ago, before everbody
> had cheap and easy internet access. So it's no wonder that nobody is
> interested in clients for Android - even more when considering Tapatalk
> and the thousands of web base forums which can be used with Tapatalk
> (<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.quoord.tapatalkpro.activity>).

There's one thing that Usenet (and e-mail) have had for over 30 years
that web-based forums rarely have: threading. The References header was
added long ago (1982 in RFC 822) so clients could arrange the posts into
hierarchical threads so you could see who said what to whom. It is rare
I find a web-based forum that honors the References header or uses their
own or even attempts to show hiearchy in the messages. Everything is
flat and you waste time reading a jumbled mess.

There is also something to said regarding the level of intelligence of
Usenetizens versus web-based forum member: Usenetizens are typically
smarter. They had to figure out how to find an NNTP server, decide on
an NNTP client, configure that client, and find the appropriate
newsgroup(s). Those weaned on web browsers are not so intelligent or
even show initiative to solve their own problems before asking. A prime
example is Google Groups which is not only a big source of spam,
malcontents, forgers, peuriles, and trolls but also of uber-boobs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September

A Usenet provider even took that name for his Usenet service. He was
Mozzerlla (yes, misspelled) but changed to eternal-september. Then it
was the flood of uber-boobs when Google provided an HTTP-to-NNTP gateway
to Usenet after acquiring Deja News, and the effluence kept pouring in.

I've been hearing about the death of Usenet for decades. Only those new
to it keep saying that. I suspect they think that because the ISP's
dumped their Usenet service that surely it would die. They left because
it did not generate revenue and they got an excuse to leave (from a NY
state attorney threatening to sue because Usenet was a pipe for kiddie
porn). Microsoft left because they couldn't control the Usenet or its
content, and yet even with their departure the microsoft.public.*
newsgroups remained. Many MVPs left Usenet because they went with the
mass migration of boobs to Microsoft's inane Answers forums.

The flux in Usenet population has varied primarily due to cost of
access. When it was free (included in the price) from ISPs, there were
more boobs visiting Usenet. When it stopped being free then the
freeloaders disappeared. Yes, there are definitely free Usenet
providers but they are text-only newsgroup providers (their altruistic
endeavors have financial constraints) but the boobs using their ISPs
Usenet service mostly faded when that venue disappeared. If they have
to pay, they go away.

If you want to measure the population of Usenet by the subpar
participants in web-based forums, go right ahead. The more intelligent
core are still here. Usenet is dead when it is dead, not before.
Personally I don't mind the boobs leaving to go use web-based forums.
Means less of them here. Yay, Usenet is dead, look over there, boob,
there's a web-based forum, yeah, go over there, go, go. I know lots of
users of webmail clients because they don't want to figure out where are
the e-mail servers, which local e-mail client to use, which protocol,
how to configure the e-mail client, or how to use it. Too complicated
for them.

Mostly what I see about those forecasting or reporting the death of
Usenet has to do with the loss of binaries (prevalently porn) or having
to pay for them. Big whoop-de-doo. So they lost porn. Boo hoo. To
me, Usenet was not about porn. Yes, porn helped pay for many Usenet
services but that was a vicious cycle: more porn, more users, more
bandwidth, more hardware, more disk space, and repeat. Porn paid for
porn binaries, not for the text-only newsgroups. I use text-only Usenet
providers. Leave porn to the web.

[AL]

Arno Welzel <use...@arnowelzel.de> wrote:

> In fact Usenet is nearly dead

Hopefully Google Groups and other websites that mirror Usenet will help
slow the decline a bit.

> There are less users than 20 years ago, before everbody had cheap
> and easy internet access.

25 years ago I was paying a lot LESS for Internet access than I pay now.
And even at those old slow speeds, Usenet (and bulletin boards) worked
just fine. IMO the proliferation of easy to find and use web forums
diluting the user base is more likely the cause.

> So it's no wonder that nobody is interested in clients for Android

I use Android Usenet newsgroup apps frequently. But I can see why few
would waste time writing or improving them with such a small user base.

[nospam]

In article <o927do$ct2$1...@dont-email.me>, AL <135...@invalid.com> wrote:

> > In fact Usenet is nearly dead
>
> Hopefully Google Groups and other websites that mirror Usenet will help
> slow the decline a bit.

google groups is accelerating its decline because posts originating
from there is almost entirely spam.

> > There are less users than 20 years ago, before everbody had cheap
> > and easy internet access.
>
> 25 years ago I was paying a lot LESS for Internet access than I pay now.

and most everything else too.

> And even at those old slow speeds, Usenet (and bulletin boards) worked
> just fine. IMO the proliferation of easy to find and use web forums
> diluting the user base is more likely the cause.

web forums is the main reason, plus they're moderated so there's little
to no spam.

> > So it's no wonder that nobody is interested in clients for Android
>
> I use Android Usenet newsgroup apps frequently. But I can see why few
> would waste time writing or improving them with such a small user base.

yep. it's not worth the time.

[Niamh Bodkin]

In <news:ehjfu7...@mid.individual.net>, VanguardLH suggested:

> Everything is
> flat and you waste time reading a jumbled mess

I think most forums use the same software which gives the user the option
to view the posts in a variety of formats, threaded being one of them.

I think.

[Niamh Bodkin]

In <news:ehjdd7...@mid.individual.net>, VanguardLH suggested:

> Unfortunately the OP deliberately asked a vague question so answers are
> just as unfocused.

I think the op was trolling based on the :) and the obvious question.

[micky]

In comp.mobile.android, on Mon, 27 Feb 2017 13:26:03 -0600, VanguardLH

<V...@nguard.LH> wrote:

>micky wrote:
>
>> In comp.mobile.android, on Mon, 27 Feb 2017 02:46:38 -0600, VanguardLH
>> <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
>>
>>>F Murtz wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyone ever manage to get any android usenet reader to work? :)
>>>
>>>The body of the message is to *elaborate* upon the Subject header. To
>>
>> I disagree. I see the subject header as equivalent to the title page
>> of a paper, which is followed on the next page by the body of the paper
>> which will have a copy of the title at the top and which will have all
>> the elements of the title in the first or second sentence of the first
>> paragraph.
>
>When you read a book, a letter, or any document, the entire content of
>that material is in the title? Yeah, right.

That's the opposite of what I said. I said the content of the title was
in the first paragraph, not that the content of the entire text was in
the title.

>
>> In groups I read thoroughly, I just go from one post to the next, never
>> looking at the table of contents or the subject lines.
>
>You read a lot of trash in Usenet then. For those too lazy to define
>filters or don't know how, using their eyes to filter on the Subject is

I know how to do use filters and I use them, but in some groups there is
nothing or next to nothing that needs to be filtered out.

In addition, filters make it easy to do what I said, even where filters
are in place and active. It's still possible to go from one post to the
next because the filters do their job and Agent automatically skips
posts that are filtered out.

>their line of defense against wasting time on posts they don't want to
>read or cannot help.
>
>> When people start writing in the middle of a thought, I find it a big
>> distraction to have to go to the subject line to find out what the
>> post is talking about.
>
>Who said starting in the middle? How old are you?

All I did is disgree with your position on the first sentence of a post,
and in the previous paragraph I think you ssuggested I was too lazy to
define filters or didn't know how. But here I'm sure you're
insulting me, even though I said not a word about you.

>I know you've read
>books and letters and even e-mails. Do you e-mails have nothing in
>their body other than what is in the Subject header?

As at the top, you're interpreting my post backwards. Again, I said the
content of the header was in the body, not that the body was in the
header.

[micky]

In comp.mobile.android, on Mon, 27 Feb 2017 14:19:19 -0600, VanguardLH

<V...@nguard.LH> wrote:

>
>There's one thing that Usenet (and e-mail) have had for over 30 years
>that web-based forums rarely have: threading. The References header was
>added long ago (1982 in RFC 822) so clients could arrange the posts into
>hierarchical threads so you could see who said what to whom. It is rare
>I find a web-based forum that honors the References header or uses their
>own or even attempts to show hiearchy in the messages. Everything is
>flat and you waste time reading a jumbled mess.

That's for sure. One of the many reasons I don't post to web forums
unless it is the absolutely only place to get an answer. -- I've used
Trip Advisor. -- And I've posted to comments of one newspaper column I
read in the paper newspaper. But I'll reply to someone and then somehow
other answers show up between me and the guy I was replying to and my
reply no longer makes sense. I took to addressing the person I was
replying to because of that. but that doesn't help me understand the
other people.

[nospam]

In article <ehjfu7...@mid.individual.net>, VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH>
wrote:

> There's one thing that Usenet (and e-mail) have had for over 30 years
> that web-based forums rarely have: threading. The References header was
> added long ago (1982 in RFC 822) so clients could arrange the posts into
> hierarchical threads so you could see who said what to whom. It is rare
> I find a web-based forum that honors the References header or uses their
> own or even attempts to show hiearchy in the messages. Everything is
> flat and you waste time reading a jumbled mess.

actually it saves time because it makes it easier to see just the new
posts grouped together rather than have them scattered among everything
else, which for large threads is a pain in the ass (see reddit for how
*not* to do it). many forums offer both options (and other than reddit,
it actually works), so the user can choose what works best.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
>
> A Usenet provider even took that name for his Usenet service. He was
> Mozzerlla (yes, misspelled) but changed to eternal-september.

motzarella

> Then it
> was the flood of uber-boobs when Google provided an HTTP-to-NNTP gateway
> to Usenet after acquiring Deja News, and the effluence kept pouring in.

google groups is the #1 source of idiot posters and spammers, some from
people so incredibly stupid (even for spammers) that they reply to 15+
year old posts just to spam, expecting that the poster has still not
resolved their issue in all these years.

in a web forum, that shit gets reported and deleted, many times within
minutes.

>
> Mostly what I see about those forecasting or reporting the death of
> Usenet has to do with the loss of binaries (prevalently porn) or having
> to pay for them. Big whoop-de-doo. So they lost porn. Boo hoo. To
> me, Usenet was not about porn. Yes, porn helped pay for many Usenet
> services but that was a vicious cycle: more porn, more users, more
> bandwidth, more hardware, more disk space, and repeat. Porn paid for
> porn binaries, not for the text-only newsgroups. I use text-only Usenet
> providers. Leave porn to the web.

binaries (porn & warez) is what keeps usenet alive and supports the
misleading statistic that usenet traffic is 'growing'. of course it's
growing, to support all the pirated 4k content.

meanwhile, the discussion groups have dwindled, most of which are
overrun with spam making them entirely unusable.

[VanguardLH]

micky wrote:

> In comp.mobile.android, on Mon, 27 Feb 2017 13:26:03 -0600, VanguardLH
> <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
>
>>micky wrote:
>>

>>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>>
>>>>The body of the message is to *elaborate* upon the Subject header. To
>>>
>>> I disagree. I see the subject header as equivalent to the title page
>>> of a paper, which is followed on the next page by the body of the paper
>>> which will have a copy of the title at the top and which will have all
>>> the elements of the title in the first or second sentence of the first
>>> paragraph.
>>
>>When you read a book, a letter, or any document, the entire content of
>>that material is in the title? Yeah, right.
>
> That's the opposite of what I said. I said the content of the title was
> in the first paragraph, not that the content of the entire text was in
> the title.

I took "I disagree" to mean you thought the body of the message does not
require more than what is in the Subject header, or the Subject header
is the end-all to the message. The rest of your paragraph tended to
agree but you started by declaring to disagree.

[micky]

In comp.mobile.android, on Tue, 28 Feb 2017 03:34:07 -0600, VanguardLH

I agree that could be confusing. I took and still take your first line
to be an objection to the OP repeating his subject line in the body of
the post, and I took your statement to mean that the body is to
elaborate on and NOT to repeat the subject header. I disagree with the
second part, the idea that it shouldn't repeat the the subject.

[Carlos E. R.]

Yes, at least on some you can thread posts. The problem then is that you
don't distinguish new pots from old and already read.

A few offer an web-nntp gateway to the forum.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Poutnik]

Dne 28/02/2017 v 12:51 Carlos E. R. napsal(a):

> On 2017-02-28 02:13, Niamh Bodkin wrote:

>>
>> I think most forums use the same software which gives the user the option
>> to view the posts in a variety of formats, threaded being one of them.
>
> Yes, at least on some you can thread posts. The problem then is that you
> don't distinguish new pots from old and already read.

And what I miss very much is watching/ignoring the threads.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-03-03 07:50, Poutnik wrote:
> Dne 28/02/2017 v 12:51 Carlos E. R. napsal(a):
>> On 2017-02-28 02:13, Niamh Bodkin wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I think most forums use the same software which gives the user the option
>>> to view the posts in a variety of formats, threaded being one of them.
>>
>> Yes, at least on some you can thread posts. The problem then is that you
>> don't distinguish new pots from old and already read.
>
> And what I miss very much is watching/ignoring the threads.

Indeed.

I don't understand why they are more popular than nntp.

If it is because of control or moderation, well, nntp servers may
require authentication, and they may be restricted to a server. And if
it is because things like formatting with fonts and images, well, some
software (thunderbird) support html.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[AL]

On 3/3/2017 5:34 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> I don't understand why they [forums] are more popular than nntp.

My guess:

Forums:
1. Google to find forum, start reading.

NNTP:
1. Find server
2. Sign up authentication, get sign in name/password
3. Get newsreader
4. Setup newsreader-easy for OT, nightmare for newbie
5. Learn newsreader operation-easy for OT, nightmare for newbie
5. Find decent newsgroups among thousands of junk/abandoned&spam
6. start reading.

If I was a newbie I'd do forums too...

[Poutnik]

Dne 04/03/2017 v 03:53 AL napsal(a):

While the initial pain ends here,
the BAU pain of the forums just starts.

Imagine a high traffic forum with 1000 posts daily,
as I remember such traffic in better NNTP days.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-03-04 07:48, Poutnik wrote:
> Dne 04/03/2017 v 03:53 AL napsal(a):
>> On 3/3/2017 5:34 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>>> I don't understand why they [forums] are more popular than nntp.
>>
>> My guess:
>>
>> Forums:
>> 1. Google to find forum, start reading.
>>
>> NNTP:
>> 1. Find server
>> 2. Sign up authentication, get sign in name/password
>> 3. Get newsreader
>> 4. Setup newsreader-easy for OT, nightmare for newbie
>> 5. Learn newsreader operation-easy for OT, nightmare for newbie
>> 5. Find decent newsgroups among thousands of junk/abandoned&spam
>> 6. start reading.
>
>>
>> If I was a newbie I'd do forums too...

You have a point.

> While the initial pain ends here,
> the BAU pain of the forums just starts.
>
> Imagine a high traffic forum with 1000 posts daily,
> as I remember such traffic in better NNTP days.

And yo also have a point.

:-)


I can think of an issue: a forum content is "googable", nntp is not.
I can not search for content with Thunderbird, for instance. I'm not
aware of a client that can search content.

I do have a trick for content search, locally: I use "leafnode" as nntp
proxy and I can grep the files.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Gordon Levi]

You can search all Usenet posts at <https://groups.google.com/>.

>I can not search for content with Thunderbird, for instance.

I only use Thunderbird for email but I can't see why
"Edit->Find->Search Messages" wouldn't work for news groups.

> I'm not
>aware of a client that can search content.

Agent can search content although it cannot use the content in a
filter of incoming posts.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-03-04 15:33, Gordon Levi wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_...@invalid.es> wrote:


>> I can think of an issue: a forum content is "googable", nntp is not.
>
> You can search all Usenet posts at <https://groups.google.com/>.
>> I can not search for content with Thunderbird, for instance.
>
> I only use Thunderbird for email but I can't see why
> "Edit->Find->Search Messages" wouldn't work for news groups.

I am very surprised. I tried this before (years ago) and the option was
not there. [...] Ah, ok, it can only search on subject, from,
complaints-to, and possibly a custom header. Not body. That is if
"search on server" is ticked. If not, then some other fields appear, but
still not the body.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[tlvp]

On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:25:08 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> I'm not
> aware of a client that can search content.

Then you're not aware of 40tude Dialog -- that *can* search content.

Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

[Frank Slootweg]

Carlos E. R. <robin_...@invalid.es> wrote:

[...]

> I can think of an issue: a forum content is "googable",

Only if the forum administrator - explicitly or implicitly (due to
lack of knowledge) *makes* it "googable".

> nntp is not.
> I can not search for content with Thunderbird, for instance. I'm not
> aware of a client that can search content.

Since when is Thunderbird a newsclient !? :-)

> I do have a trick for content search, locally: I use "leafnode" as nntp
> proxy and I can grep the files.

I would imagine any decent newsreader would have such a function. As
you run your newreader on a Linux system, I can give at least one
suggestion, the 'tin' newsreader (see my 'User-Agent:' header). With tin
I can search on Subject:, on author (From:) and in the body of articles.

[BugHunter]

Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> schreef op Za 4 Mrt 2017 om 20:46:

> Carlos E. R. <robin_...@invalid.es> wrote:
> [...]
> > I can think of an issue: a forum content is "googable",
>
> Only if the forum administrator - explicitly or implicitly (due to
> lack of knowledge) *makes* it "googable".
>
> > nntp is not.
> > I can not search for content with Thunderbird, for instance. I'm not
> > aware of a client that can search content.
>
> Since when is Thunderbird a newsclient !? :-)

Since his beginning. News and e-mail.

--
\ / http://nieuwsgroepen.tk
------------///-----------------------------
/ \ Bye, BugHunter

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-03-04 21:21, tlvp wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:25:08 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> I'm not
>> aware of a client that can search content.
>
> Then you're not aware of 40tude Dialog -- that *can* search content.

Windows only. I can't use it.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[tlvp]

On Sun, 5 Mar 2017 00:00:27 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> Windows only. I can't use it.

Have you tried Dialog in Wine, or similar? Reportedly does OK there.

[nospam]

In article <bhtrod-...@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.

<robin_...@invalid.es> wrote:

> >> I'm not
> >> aware of a client that can search content.
> >
> > Then you're not aware of 40tude Dialog -- that *can* search content.
>
> Windows only. I can't use it.

is there something preventing you from installing windows?

[tlvp]

On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:25:08 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> I can not search for content with Thunderbird ...

Interesting. In the antique Thunderbird installation on this Win Vista rig
(T'bird v. 2.0.0.24), I can search, within any given account, along my
choice of Subject, Sender, Subject or Sender, To or Cc, and Entire Message
(drop-down menu at Search text-input box).

Is that no longer the case in more recent versions of T'bird? If so, it's
yet another reason I'm glad I never updated my installation :-) .

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-03-05 06:30, tlvp wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:25:08 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> I can not search for content with Thunderbird ...
>
> Interesting. In the antique Thunderbird installation on this Win Vista rig
> (T'bird v. 2.0.0.24), I can search, within any given account, along my
> choice of Subject, Sender, Subject or Sender, To or Cc, and Entire Message
> (drop-down menu at Search text-input box).
>
> Is that no longer the case in more recent versions of T'bird? If so, it's
> yet another reason I'm glad I never updated my installation :-) .

You mention "accounts". That is suggestive of "email accounts".
Thunderbird can certainly search the bodies of all emails, but not on
nntp groups. I don't remember it having this capability earlier.

I can think of reasons for this. I think the client only downloads the
headers of a number of posts (say 3000) on a group and keeps them. Some
clients, like Thunderbird, keeps what it downloads. With this data, it
constructs a display of message subjects, froms, dates, etc. But so far,
it does not download the bodies.

Only when the user clicks to read a message, the body is downloaded, and
kept for a limited time on local disk.

But it never keeps all the bodies of all the messages on the list, so it
can not search them. The command would have to download all the bodies
first.

Although... Thunderbird has a setting to also download "for offline use"
a group (sync policy). When one does this (surprise!) Thunderbird offers
to search bodies in the search group box.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-03-05 06:19, tlvp wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Mar 2017 00:00:27 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> Windows only. I can't use it.
>
> Have you tried Dialog in Wine, or similar? Reportedly does OK there.

I may try that one day. Wrote a note about it in my list of programs.

Meanwhile, I have a working alternative, which is grepping the raw
message database.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-03-04 21:46, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_...@invalid.es> wrote:
> [...]
>> I can think of an issue: a forum content is "googable",
>
> Only if the forum administrator - explicitly or implicitly (due to
> lack of knowledge) *makes* it "googable".

Making them googable allows people to find answers.
If not, they will have local search for members.

>
>> nntp is not.
>> I can not search for content with Thunderbird, for instance. I'm not
>> aware of a client that can search content.
>
> Since when is Thunderbird a newsclient !? :-)

Actually, the best newsclient I know, and I have tried a bunch. Knode
was close, but it does not build currently.

>> I do have a trick for content search, locally: I use "leafnode" as nntp
>> proxy and I can grep the files.
>
> I would imagine any decent newsreader would have such a function. As
> you run your newreader on a Linux system, I can give at least one
> suggestion, the 'tin' newsreader (see my 'User-Agent:' header). With tin
> I can search on Subject:, on author (From:) and in the body of articles.

Unfortunately, I do not like its interface. I find it awkward.
And another thing, more important: it does not track what messages I
read. I tried it some time ago, then deleted it.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[tlvp]

On Mon, 6 Mar 2017 03:48:29 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> You mention "accounts". That is suggestive of "email accounts".

By "account" T'bird seems to understand (a) email account, and (b)
individual newsgroup on a given news-server.

> Thunderbird can certainly search the bodies of all emails, but not on
> nntp groups. I don't remember it having this capability earlier.

It's prepared to search through the bodies of *downloaded* messages,
whether email or newsposts. But these messages must be present on the local
HD, i.e., fully downloaded, not just hinted at by sender and subject.
Another way to rut it: T'bird does *not* search through msg bodies on the
nntp server, it searches only locally among already available msg bodies.

But what puts me off T'bird as news client is that, unlike for emails, it
chooses to expunge downloaded news posts following a schedule of its own
devising, and without notice to me, its proprietor. That's harmless if the
expired message is still on the server, but disastrous if it's not.

Dialog, fortunately, retains anything you've downloaded for as long as you
like, expunging it only when *you* tell it to.

HTH to clarify matters. Cheers, -- tlvp

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-03-06 06:12, tlvp wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Mar 2017 03:48:29 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> You mention "accounts". That is suggestive of "email accounts".
>
> By "account" T'bird seems to understand (a) email account, and (b)
> individual newsgroup on a given news-server.
>
>> Thunderbird can certainly search the bodies of all emails, but not on
>> nntp groups. I don't remember it having this capability earlier.
>
> It's prepared to search through the bodies of *downloaded* messages,
> whether email or newsposts. But these messages must be present on the local
> HD, i.e., fully downloaded, not just hinted at by sender and subject.
> Another way to rut it: T'bird does *not* search through msg bodies on the
> nntp server, it searches only locally among already available msg bodies.

If you read my post to the end, I found out what setting needs to be
done so that Thunderbird searches nntp bodies. My last paragraph ;-)

Thunderbird can search emails that were not downloaded, by telling the
server to do the search. IMAP servers can have that feature enabled or not.

> But what puts me off T'bird as news client is that, unlike for emails, it
> chooses to expunge downloaded news posts following a schedule of its own
> devising, and without notice to me, its proprietor. That's harmless if the
> expired message is still on the server, but disastrous if it's not.

You can change the policy, per group and globally.

In my case, I use leafnode as proxy, so leafnode does the local storage,
not Thunderbird. Means I also have to define the retention policy at
leafnode.

It has the advantage of being able to use different nntp clients as I
wish with the same local database. Browsing is fast, and storage is more
efficient than Thunderbird does.

> Dialog, fortunately, retains anything you've downloaded for as long as you
> like, expunging it only when *you* tell it to.

You can tell Thunderbird to do the same.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Frank Slootweg]

Carlos E. R. <robin_...@invalid.es> wrote:
[...]

[About the newsreader 'tin':]

> Unfortunately, I do not like its interface. I find it awkward.
> And another thing, more important: it does not track what messages I
> read. I tried it some time ago, then deleted it.

Yes, tin uses a CUI (Character/Console UI). That's of course different
than a GUI, but after a little while it's more efficient, because you
only need the keyboard, instead of a keyboard and mouse.

For a pure text medium like Usenet/NetNews, using a GUI is a bit
silly, because it doesn't add any functionality and it gets in the way
of efficiently working your way through many groups and messages/
articles. (Note: E-mail is quite different, because it's normally much
lower volume than Usenet/NetNews. FWIW, I use Thunderbird for email.)

Not marking read articles as read is clearly a error in the settings.

Anyway, to each its own.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-03-06 20:59, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_...@invalid.es> wrote:
> [...]
>
> [About the newsreader 'tin':]
>
>> Unfortunately, I do not like its interface. I find it awkward.
>> And another thing, more important: it does not track what messages I
>> read. I tried it some time ago, then deleted it.
>
> Yes, tin uses a CUI (Character/Console UI). That's of course different
> than a GUI, but after a little while it's more efficient, because you
> only need the keyboard, instead of a keyboard and mouse.

I use Pine for email, so I'm familiar with a CUI. That's not the issue.
Or partly, because there are some standardization on GUIs, but not on
CUIs. Each CUI uses its own and different keyboard interface. This is of
note specially on the editor.

IBM defined a standard user interface for programs, for msdos. Quite a
number of programs followed that definition. But it did not happen for
Unix, being older.

> Not marking read articles as read is clearly a error in the settings.

I'm interested in this, but perhaps it is too offtopic for this group.
If I remember correctly, it simply marks the last message read, but this
is pointless in threaded view. I was told that to mark read messages in
a thread, I had to delete them, and that I will not do. I want to see
all messages, and those that are read in different colour, and have a
key that goes to the next unread message.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[tlvp]

On Mon, 6 Mar 2017 13:29:07 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> If you read my post to the end, I found out what setting needs to be
> done so that Thunderbird searches nntp bodies. My last paragraph ;-)

Right, I didn't catch the full implications of that. Sorry to have
reconfirmed what you had already found out for yourself.

> Thunderbird can search emails that were not downloaded, by telling the
> server to do the search. IMAP servers can have that feature enabled or not.

I'm not sure I'd have much use for that, as all emails I would ever have
T'bird search in *are* already downloaded to my local storage.

>> ... expunge[s] downloaded news posts following a schedule of its own
>> devising, and without notice to me, its proprietor. ...

>
> You can change the policy, per group and globally

Goodness knows I've tried ... and failed ... repeatedly. Got any pointers?

>> Dialog, fortunately, retains anything you've downloaded for as long as you
>> like, expunging it only when *you* tell it to.
>
> You can tell Thunderbird to do the same.

Oh, I can *tell* it to, all right, but it won't *obey* :-( .

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-03-07 02:47, tlvp wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Mar 2017 13:29:07 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> If you read my post to the end, I found out what setting needs to be
>> done so that Thunderbird searches nntp bodies. My last paragraph ;-)
>
> Right, I didn't catch the full implications of that. Sorry to have
> reconfirmed what you had already found out for yourself.

No problem :-)

>> Thunderbird can search emails that were not downloaded, by telling the
>> server to do the search. IMAP servers can have that feature enabled or not.
>
> I'm not sure I'd have much use for that, as all emails I would ever have
> T'bird search in *are* already downloaded to my local storage.

Well, you might do that with gmail, if it works (I haven't tried).

In my case, I use my own local imap server, and I enabled text search on
it, with dovecot. It creates a database for searching text, but TB is
very slow searching, anyway. I have to try another engine, but haven't
got round to do it yet.

>
>>> ... expunge[s] downloaded news posts following a schedule of its own
>>> devising, and without notice to me, its proprietor. ...
>>
>> You can change the policy, per group and globally
>
> Goodness knows I've tried ... and failed ... repeatedly. Got any pointers?
>

Right click on a group, properties. There is a retention policy tab,
where the default is use the global settings. Another tab is retention
policy. You have to mark one by one all the groups that you want to
store bodies locally. But instead, read on.

The global settings are in Edit/ Account settings / Synchronization and
storage. There is a button to select which group to save locally (for
offline use). Then you have to tick "don't delete any message" if you
want to keep them all, and untick "remove bodies older than so many days".

That should be it.


In my case, I have "don't delete any messages" and "delete bodies older
than one day", because the message database is handled by leafnode instead.


To use, you have to go "File / Offline / Download/Sync now. to force TB
to do the sync. Or, click on the two computer minicon on the status bar,
to go offline. It will ask if it should download messages now, say yes.
When done, click back to go online.


This said, I believe TB to be inefficient storing nntp messages locally.
It can be a huge local file that grows and grows. Well, not so huge
nowdays, not so many posts.

>>> Dialog, fortunately, retains anything you've downloaded for as long as you
>>> like, expunging it only when *you* tell it to.
>>
>> You can tell Thunderbird to do the same.
>
> Oh, I can *tell* it to, all right, but it won't *obey* :-( .

Too bad... often software has a mind of its own, doesn't it? :-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Frank Slootweg]

Carlos E. R. <robin_...@invalid.es> wrote:
> On 2017-03-06 20:59, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> > Carlos E. R. <robin_...@invalid.es> wrote:
> > [...]
> >
> > [About the newsreader 'tin':]
> >
> >> Unfortunately, I do not like its interface. I find it awkward.
> >> And another thing, more important: it does not track what messages I
> >> read. I tried it some time ago, then deleted it.
> >
> > Yes, tin uses a CUI (Character/Console UI). That's of course different
> > than a GUI, but after a little while it's more efficient, because you
> > only need the keyboard, instead of a keyboard and mouse.
>
> I use Pine for email, so I'm familiar with a CUI. That's not the issue.
> Or partly, because there are some standardization on GUIs, but not on
> CUIs. Each CUI uses its own and different keyboard interface. This is of
> note specially on the editor.

Any decent newsreader allows the user to choose *which* editor to use,
because composing a post/response has very little to do with the rest of
the newsreader functions.

I've set up tin to use the vi[m] editor, but I could use any editor
instead.

This is the relevant part of the (~,tin/tinrc) configuration file:

# Format of editor line including parameters
# %E Editor %F Filename %N Linenumber
default_editor_format=vi +%N `basename %F`

(%N is set automatically by another setting)

> IBM defined a standard user interface for programs, for msdos. Quite a
> number of programs followed that definition. But it did not happen for
> Unix, being older.

The tin command-characters are rather sensible and of course can be
re-mapped if you think otherwise.

For example I can read all groups and all articles with just one hand
(never you mind what the other hand does! :-)) with <tab> and <space>.
If I want to read something out of sequence, I only have to navigate
with the cursor keys.

> > Not marking read articles as read is clearly a error in the settings.
>
> I'm interested in this, but perhaps it is too offtopic for this group.
> If I remember correctly, it simply marks the last message read, but this
> is pointless in threaded view. I was told that to mark read messages in
> a thread, I had to delete them, and that I will not do. I want to see
> all messages, and those that are read in different colour, and have a
> key that goes to the next unread message.

I had a look. This is the relevant part of the configuration file:

# If ON show only new/unread articles otherwise show all.
show_only_unread=ON

So you had that setting wrong.

BTW, you change the configration file by means of the 'M' (menu of
configurable options) command. Directly editing it is not recommended
(but possible if you know how (not to)).

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2017-03-07 21:01, Frank Slootweg wrote:
> Carlos E. R. <robin_...@invalid.es> wrote:


>> I use Pine for email, so I'm familiar with a CUI. That's not the issue.
>> Or partly, because there are some standardization on GUIs, but not on
>> CUIs. Each CUI uses its own and different keyboard interface. This is of
>> note specially on the editor.
>
> Any decent newsreader allows the user to choose *which* editor to use,
> because composing a post/response has very little to do with the rest of
> the newsreader functions.

Yes, I know.

>>> Not marking read articles as read is clearly a error in the settings.
>>
>> I'm interested in this, but perhaps it is too offtopic for this group.
>> If I remember correctly, it simply marks the last message read, but this
>> is pointless in threaded view. I was told that to mark read messages in
>> a thread, I had to delete them, and that I will not do. I want to see
>> all messages, and those that are read in different colour, and have a
>> key that goes to the next unread message.
>
> I had a look. This is the relevant part of the configuration file:
>
> # If ON show only new/unread articles otherwise show all.
> show_only_unread=ON

I want all messages to be shown. I just want the messages I read to be
marked differently. Same as Thunderbird does. In sort by thread mode.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[tlvp]

On Tue, 7 Mar 2017 04:07:53 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> tick "don't delete any message" if you
> want to keep them all, and untick "remove bodies older than so many days".
>
> That should be it.

Yup. Should be. But T'bird doesn't follow orders. No matter, Dialog's fine.

Thanks for confirming that I've done about all I can do. Cheers, -- tlvp

[Frank Slootweg]

Carlos E. R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2017-03-07 21:01, Frank Slootweg wrote:

[...]

> >>> Not marking read articles as read is clearly a error in the settings.
> >>
> >> I'm interested in this, but perhaps it is too offtopic for this group.
> >> If I remember correctly, it simply marks the last message read, but this
> >> is pointless in threaded view. I was told that to mark read messages in
> >> a thread, I had to delete them, and that I will not do. I want to see
> >> all messages, and those that are read in different colour, and have a
> >> key that goes to the next unread message.
> >
> > I had a look. This is the relevant part of the configuration file:
> >
> > # If ON show only new/unread articles otherwise show all.
> > show_only_unread=ON
>
> I want all messages to be shown. I just want the messages I read to be
> marked differently. Same as Thunderbird does. In sort by thread mode.

The setting is only relevant for the list of threads/subjects (i.e.
like what's normally in the upper-right pane in Thunderbird), i.e. not
*in* a thread. *In* a thread you just use 'l' (list) to see the
list/tree of all articles in the thread. Read articles are marked with a
space, but you can mark them with any character you like.

Bottom line: It's very unlikely - to put it mildly - to find a feature
in Thunderbird which is not in tin, slrn, or any other newsreader for
that matter.