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International Cell Phone Use
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Boris
Jul 24, 2023, 2:58:35 PM7/24/23
to
I've never had to use a cell phone outside of the U.S.
Four members of our family are going to Germany and England to visit just
discovered (through DNA evidence) immediate family , and I'm trying to
figure out the best way to handle texting, calling, and sending photos
between
those of us who will be visiting Germany and England,
just discovered relatives residing in Germany and England,
and other family members still back in the U.S.
All U.S. family members traveling have ATT mobile accounts, with Samsung
Android phones. Three are on the same account, one has their own
account.
The AT&T International Day Pass® would work, at a cost, of course:
-----------
"Our best international option! Use the talk, text & data you already
have when you travel to over 210 countries.
Add anytime. Pay $10 for the first 24 hours of coverage - only on the
days you use it. Use any additional lines on your account on the same day
for just $5 per day. Never pay for more than 10 days per bill.
Unlimited talk applies to calls to the U.S., or within and between
International Day Pass countries. Long distance rates apply to all other
calls.
Terms, fees, and other restrictions apply for the plan you use at home.
That includes Video Management. Go to myAT&T to remove or cancel this
option anytime, but higher rates may apply.
Just a heads-up:
If you have apps running in the background that use data, you'll be
charged the per-day fee.
To avoid unintended data use, go to your device or app settings to
turn off roaming or mobile data.
You will only be charged a maximum of 10 days per line each bill
cycle, even if you stay longer!"
--------
QUESTION:
I don't understand what is meant by apps running in the background that
use data will be charged the per-day fee. So even if I'm on this plan,
but not making calls, texting, etc., if I'm using the internet, for
instance, I'll be charged $10 for that day?
QUESTION:
And, to avoid unintended data use, I should turn off roaming or mobile
data. The only way I see to do this is to turn on Airplane mode, but
wouldn't this turn off ALL data capabilities?
I'm also considering WhatsAPP, but don't care for it much.
Four members of our family are going to Germany and England to visit just
discovered (through DNA evidence) immediate family , and I'm trying to
figure out the best way to handle texting, calling, and sending photos
between
those of us who will be visiting Germany and England,
just discovered relatives residing in Germany and England,
and other family members still back in the U.S.
All U.S. family members traveling have ATT mobile accounts, with Samsung
Android phones. Three are on the same account, one has their own
account.
The AT&T International Day Pass® would work, at a cost, of course:
-----------
"Our best international option! Use the talk, text & data you already
have when you travel to over 210 countries.
Add anytime. Pay $10 for the first 24 hours of coverage - only on the
days you use it. Use any additional lines on your account on the same day
for just $5 per day. Never pay for more than 10 days per bill.
Unlimited talk applies to calls to the U.S., or within and between
International Day Pass countries. Long distance rates apply to all other
calls.
Terms, fees, and other restrictions apply for the plan you use at home.
That includes Video Management. Go to myAT&T to remove or cancel this
option anytime, but higher rates may apply.
Just a heads-up:
If you have apps running in the background that use data, you'll be
charged the per-day fee.
To avoid unintended data use, go to your device or app settings to
turn off roaming or mobile data.
You will only be charged a maximum of 10 days per line each bill
cycle, even if you stay longer!"
--------
QUESTION:
I don't understand what is meant by apps running in the background that
use data will be charged the per-day fee. So even if I'm on this plan,
but not making calls, texting, etc., if I'm using the internet, for
instance, I'll be charged $10 for that day?
QUESTION:
And, to avoid unintended data use, I should turn off roaming or mobile
data. The only way I see to do this is to turn on Airplane mode, but
wouldn't this turn off ALL data capabilities?
I'm also considering WhatsAPP, but don't care for it much.
Carlos E.R.
Jul 24, 2023, 4:23:12 PM7/24/23
to
On 2023-07-24 20:58, Boris wrote:
> I've never had to use a cell phone outside of the U.S.
>
> Four members of our family are going to Germany and England to visit just
> discovered (through DNA evidence) immediate family , and I'm trying to
> figure out the best way to handle texting, calling, and sending photos
> between
>
> those of us who will be visiting Germany and England,
> just discovered relatives residing in Germany and England,
> and other family members still back in the U.S.
Typically the best thing is to have a phone with dual SIMs, and buy a
> I've never had to use a cell phone outside of the U.S.
>
> Four members of our family are going to Germany and England to visit just
> discovered (through DNA evidence) immediate family , and I'm trying to
> figure out the best way to handle texting, calling, and sending photos
> between
>
> those of us who will be visiting Germany and England,
> just discovered relatives residing in Germany and England,
> and other family members still back in the U.S.
prepaid SIM on Europe for the duration.
use internet for whatever they see fit. Say, a bank app might want to
check if you got any new invoice. The phone might want to send the
current location for google tracking.
The instant there is a connection to send a single byte, your company
charges you the $10 for that day.
>
> QUESTION:
> And, to avoid unintended data use, I should turn off roaming or mobile
> data. The only way I see to do this is to turn on Airplane mode, but
> wouldn't this turn off ALL data capabilities?
of the SIM.
> I'm also considering WhatsAPP, but don't care for it much.
it or not. For many people, sending and SMS to you is expensive (say a
dollar per message). Even more if it has photos. On the other hand,
WhatsApp is gratis, provided you already have internet.
Of course, there are other apps with their corresponding isolated
network that are used. Ask your relatives what apps they are using, and
get the same app installed.
There is Signal, Telegram, Google Chat, Threema...
Don't forget RCS. This can be considered as an enhancement on SMS
working over internet, so that if both correspondents have it⁽¹⁾, mutual
messaging is gratis. iphones don't have it. So make sure your SMS app
supports it. Experiment before you travel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services
https://jibe.google.com/
(1) There is a more or less subtle colour difference that tells you if
your intended correspondent has RCS. For instance, you start to type a
message, and see a little label saying "SMS", you don't have RCS for
this conversation. Or you may see a label saying "RCS".
I just tried in my phone, and inside the text box, prior to typing, I
read "text message" (faint grey box) or "RCS message" (bluish box). This
is much better than a year ago, when the difference was subtle.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Theo
Jul 26, 2023, 8:07:47 AM7/26/23
to
Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-07-24 20:58, Boris wrote:
> > I've never had to use a cell phone outside of the U.S.
> >
> > Four members of our family are going to Germany and England to visit just
> > discovered (through DNA evidence) immediate family , and I'm trying to
> > figure out the best way to handle texting, calling, and sending photos
> > between
> >
> > those of us who will be visiting Germany and England,
> > just discovered relatives residing in Germany and England,
> > and other family members still back in the U.S.
>
> Typically the best thing is to have a phone with dual SIMs, and buy a
> prepaid SIM on Europe for the duration.
If your phone doesn't take two physical SIMs, many recent phones support
> On 2023-07-24 20:58, Boris wrote:
> > I've never had to use a cell phone outside of the U.S.
> >
> > Four members of our family are going to Germany and England to visit just
> > discovered (through DNA evidence) immediate family , and I'm trying to
> > figure out the best way to handle texting, calling, and sending photos
> > between
> >
> > those of us who will be visiting Germany and England,
> > just discovered relatives residing in Germany and England,
> > and other family members still back in the U.S.
>
> Typically the best thing is to have a phone with dual SIMs, and buy a
> prepaid SIM on Europe for the duration.
eSIMs. You can either buy an eSIM from a network in a country you're
visiting (although not all networks support eSIMs, and even fewer on
prepay), or you can buy an 'international' eSIM from somebody like Airalo.
The latter often only give you data, not voice or SMS, but you can then use
apps for the voice or text functionality over the data connection. WhatsApp
is one example, but also VOIP apps which give you a real phone number that
can send/receive calls and SMS.
> It means that some apps that you are not actually using, may themselves
> use internet for whatever they see fit. Say, a bank app might want to
> check if you got any new invoice. The phone might want to send the
> current location for google tracking.
>
> The instant there is a connection to send a single byte, your company
> charges you the $10 for that day.
phone using data unless you turn it off completely, so the moment you turn
on your mobile data connection the $10 will be gone. The only way that's
really feasible is if you rely on wifi most of the time and only turn on
data in specific situations.
> You should consider that WhatsApp is a must have in most of Europe, like
> it or not. For many people, sending and SMS to you is expensive (say a
> dollar per message). Even more if it has photos. On the other hand,
> WhatsApp is gratis, provided you already have internet.
sending cross border (eg UK to US or German phone number) it gets expensive.
A local SIM doesn't solve this, unless you have a number for each country.
MMS is basically not used here, as it's so expensive and not included in
plans.
Theo
Carlos E.R.
Jul 26, 2023, 8:38:19 AM7/26/23
to
On 2023-07-26 14:07, Theo wrote:
> Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-07-24 20:58, Boris wrote:
>>> I've never had to use a cell phone outside of the U.S.
>>>
>>> Four members of our family are going to Germany and England to visit just
>>> discovered (through DNA evidence) immediate family , and I'm trying to
>>> figure out the best way to handle texting, calling, and sending photos
>>> between
>>>
>>> those of us who will be visiting Germany and England,
>>> just discovered relatives residing in Germany and England,
>>> and other family members still back in the U.S.
>>
>> Typically the best thing is to have a phone with dual SIMs, and buy a
>> prepaid SIM on Europe for the duration.
>
> If your phone doesn't take two physical SIMs, many recent phones support
> eSIMs. You can either buy an eSIM from a network in a country you're
> visiting (although not all networks support eSIMs, and even fewer on
> prepay), or you can buy an 'international' eSIM from somebody like Airalo.
Another possibility is to switch the USA SIM to eSIM, freeing the SIM
> Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-07-24 20:58, Boris wrote:
>>> I've never had to use a cell phone outside of the U.S.
>>>
>>> Four members of our family are going to Germany and England to visit just
>>> discovered (through DNA evidence) immediate family , and I'm trying to
>>> figure out the best way to handle texting, calling, and sending photos
>>> between
>>>
>>> those of us who will be visiting Germany and England,
>>> just discovered relatives residing in Germany and England,
>>> and other family members still back in the U.S.
>>
>> Typically the best thing is to have a phone with dual SIMs, and buy a
>> prepaid SIM on Europe for the duration.
>
> If your phone doesn't take two physical SIMs, many recent phones support
> eSIMs. You can either buy an eSIM from a network in a country you're
> visiting (although not all networks support eSIMs, and even fewer on
> prepay), or you can buy an 'international' eSIM from somebody like Airalo.
slot for travelling.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Bodger
Jul 26, 2023, 3:34:51 PM7/26/23
to
On 7/24/2023 2:58 PM, Boris wrote:
> I've never had to use a cell phone outside of the U.S.
>
> Four members of our family are going to Germany and England to visit just
> discovered (through DNA evidence) immediate family , and I'm trying to
> figure out the best way to handle texting, calling, and sending photos
> between
snip...
> I've never had to use a cell phone outside of the U.S.
>
> Four members of our family are going to Germany and England to visit just
> discovered (through DNA evidence) immediate family , and I'm trying to
> figure out the best way to handle texting, calling, and sending photos
> between
All of this makes me glad that I switched over to Google-Fi for my
provider. When I travel anywhere overseas (well, I'm sure that there are
places where it won't work but I haven't found any yet) as the plane is
taxiing I get a message that I'm being connected and then magically a
minute later I have local mobile, text and data without me lifting a
finger. The service even hunts out the best provider -- I was hiking near
the West end of Anglesey Wales and when I got in a bit of terrain that
weakened the local signal I got a message saying "Welcome to Ireland" and
assuring me that I'd be connected momentarily. I don't know how much
stronger the Irish signal from across the sea could have been but
apparently the phone knew and it did work seamlessly.
I used to go the local SIM route and it did work for years but this is SO
much easier. There seems to be a near-infinite number of providers of
travel SIMs and I now have no idea which of them are good and which are bad.
Boris
Aug 5, 2023, 10:43:26 PM8/5/23
to
"Carlos E.R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote in
news:2333pjx...@Telcontar.valinor:
Thanks for the very informative reply, Carlos E. R. I'm leaving soon,
and came back to your information, and have a question.
My intention is to make things as easy as possible, especially for three
of us who use ATT here in the U.S. Right now, looks like the ATT
International Day Pass is simple. I have not signed up for this plan,
yet. I'm considering WhatsApp.
All of my European and UK relatives use WhatsApp. So, I was thinking
maybe I should just do the same so as not to be 'difficult'. I read
that to use WhatsApp, one needs internet. We all here have internet
with ATT, but say I'm in Germany, out in the country, and I want to let
my German relatives that I stopped at the tavern down the road, I
suppose I have to connect with an ISP. Would we have to sign up with an
ISP in both Germany and England to be sure the internet connection was
secure, and not just an insecure 'hotspot'?
I'll need to check email and banking, which I could do while back at a
hotel with wifi on a laptop.
news:2333pjx...@Telcontar.valinor:
and came back to your information, and have a question.
My intention is to make things as easy as possible, especially for three
of us who use ATT here in the U.S. Right now, looks like the ATT
International Day Pass is simple. I have not signed up for this plan,
yet. I'm considering WhatsApp.
All of my European and UK relatives use WhatsApp. So, I was thinking
maybe I should just do the same so as not to be 'difficult'. I read
that to use WhatsApp, one needs internet. We all here have internet
with ATT, but say I'm in Germany, out in the country, and I want to let
my German relatives that I stopped at the tavern down the road, I
suppose I have to connect with an ISP. Would we have to sign up with an
ISP in both Germany and England to be sure the internet connection was
secure, and not just an insecure 'hotspot'?
I'll need to check email and banking, which I could do while back at a
hotel with wifi on a laptop.
Dave Royal
Aug 6, 2023, 3:02:21 AM8/6/23
to
On 6 Aug 2023 02:43:23 -0000 (UTC) Boris wrote:
>
>news:2333pjx...@Telcontar.valinor:
>
It sounds like you've not used WhatsApp. I suggest you familiarise
yourself with it and try out its features before you go. You don't have to
be a member of FaceBook, BTW.
'All' your European relatives, which of course includes those of them in
the UK, may 'use' WhatsApp, but I expect not everyone will use it for the
same things. I suspect (and I have no evidence for this except observation
of my own family) that many more people use the group chat feature than
use individual chat, and many people never use it for voice or video
calls. It depends on the iPhone/Android mix and people's ages.
So setting up a WhatsApp group to tell people how you're doing, and ask
questions on routes, would work fine, but an old-fashioned phone call or
text will be more reliable in other situations.
Some Europeans, like me, 'use' WhatsApp but don't usually carry a phone
that has it.
--
(Remove numerics from email address)
>
>news:2333pjx...@Telcontar.valinor:
>
>All of my European and UK relatives use WhatsApp. So, I was thinking
>maybe I should just do the same so as not to be 'difficult'. I read
>that to use WhatsApp, one needs internet...
>All of my European and UK relatives use WhatsApp. So, I was thinking
>maybe I should just do the same so as not to be 'difficult'. I read
>
It sounds like you've not used WhatsApp. I suggest you familiarise
yourself with it and try out its features before you go. You don't have to
be a member of FaceBook, BTW.
'All' your European relatives, which of course includes those of them in
the UK, may 'use' WhatsApp, but I expect not everyone will use it for the
same things. I suspect (and I have no evidence for this except observation
of my own family) that many more people use the group chat feature than
use individual chat, and many people never use it for voice or video
calls. It depends on the iPhone/Android mix and people's ages.
So setting up a WhatsApp group to tell people how you're doing, and ask
questions on routes, would work fine, but an old-fashioned phone call or
text will be more reliable in other situations.
Some Europeans, like me, 'use' WhatsApp but don't usually carry a phone
that has it.
--
(Remove numerics from email address)
Carlos E.R.
Aug 6, 2023, 8:11:32 AM8/6/23
to
On 2023-08-06 09:02, Dave Royal wrote:
> On 6 Aug 2023 02:43:23 -0000 (UTC) Boris wrote:
>>
>> news:2333pjx...@Telcontar.valinor:
>>
>> All of my European and UK relatives use WhatsApp. So, I was thinking
>> maybe I should just do the same so as not to be 'difficult'. I read
>> that to use WhatsApp, one needs internet...
>>
> It sounds like you've not used WhatsApp. I suggest you familiarise
> yourself with it and try out its features before you go. You don't have to
> be a member of FaceBook, BTW.
>
> 'All' your European relatives, which of course includes those of them in
> the UK, may 'use' WhatsApp, but I expect not everyone will use it for the
> same things. I suspect (and I have no evidence for this except observation
> of my own family) that many more people use the group chat feature than
> use individual chat, and many people never use it for voice or video
> calls. It depends on the iPhone/Android mix and people's ages.
>
> So setting up a WhatsApp group to tell people how you're doing, and ask
> questions on routes, would work fine, but an old-fashioned phone call or
> text will be more reliable in other situations.
Many people never use groups on WhatsApp. To us, WA is just a glorified
> On 6 Aug 2023 02:43:23 -0000 (UTC) Boris wrote:
>>
>> news:2333pjx...@Telcontar.valinor:
>>
>> All of my European and UK relatives use WhatsApp. So, I was thinking
>> maybe I should just do the same so as not to be 'difficult'. I read
>> that to use WhatsApp, one needs internet...
>>
> It sounds like you've not used WhatsApp. I suggest you familiarise
> yourself with it and try out its features before you go. You don't have to
> be a member of FaceBook, BTW.
>
> 'All' your European relatives, which of course includes those of them in
> the UK, may 'use' WhatsApp, but I expect not everyone will use it for the
> same things. I suspect (and I have no evidence for this except observation
> of my own family) that many more people use the group chat feature than
> use individual chat, and many people never use it for voice or video
> calls. It depends on the iPhone/Android mix and people's ages.
>
> So setting up a WhatsApp group to tell people how you're doing, and ask
> questions on routes, would work fine, but an old-fashioned phone call or
> text will be more reliable in other situations.
SMS Messaging app, you can use it just the same :-)
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Carlos E.R.
Aug 6, 2023, 8:16:31 AM8/6/23
to
Yes, it needs internet, be it the phone data connection, or any WiFi you
connect to.
Or, if the phone has a dual SIM, it can use the data connection of the
other SIM. That is, WA is registered to your USA number, but uses the
data connection of the temporary European SIM (if you have it).
As I am from "here", meaning, the EU union, I have no experience with
getting a "local" SIM on Britain or Germany (I have my own permanent
card which is supposed to work on the entire union). Britain is no
longer on the EU, so a card bought there _might_ not work on Germany.
Better ask.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Dave Royal
Aug 6, 2023, 9:42:43 AM8/6/23
to
On 6 Aug 2023 14:13:06 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>As I am from "here", meaning, the EU union, I have no experience with
>getting a "local" SIM on Britain or Germany (I have my own permanent
>card which is supposed to work on the entire union). Britain is no
>longer on the EU, so a card bought there _might_ not work on Germany.
>Better ask.
>
Technically, UK SIMs and EU ones are the same. A SIM bought in the UK will
>
>As I am from "here", meaning, the EU union, I have no experience with
>getting a "local" SIM on Britain or Germany (I have my own permanent
>card which is supposed to work on the entire union). Britain is no
>longer on the EU, so a card bought there _might_ not work on Germany.
>Better ask.
>
work accross Europe - and beyond.
The only difference leaving the EU has made is that UK operators can
charge extra for roaming in the EU, which some do and some (such as my
giffgaff ones) don't.
I have a German (FONIC) SIM which I can roam in the UK with. FONIC still
charge EU roaming rates in the UK.
(I have no experience of eSIMs.)
sms
Aug 6, 2023, 11:27:07 AM8/6/23
to
On 8/6/2023 6:42 AM, Dave Royal wrote:
> On 6 Aug 2023 14:13:06 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>> As I am from "here", meaning, the EU union, I have no experience with
>> getting a "local" SIM on Britain or Germany (I have my own permanent
>> card which is supposed to work on the entire union). Britain is no
>> longer on the EU, so a card bought there _might_ not work on Germany.
>> Better ask.
>>
> Technically, UK SIMs and EU ones are the same. A SIM bought in the UK will
> work accross Europe - and beyond.
Pre-Brexit that was the case. Now, as you stated, many UK providers no
> On 6 Aug 2023 14:13:06 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>> As I am from "here", meaning, the EU union, I have no experience with
>> getting a "local" SIM on Britain or Germany (I have my own permanent
>> card which is supposed to work on the entire union). Britain is no
>> longer on the EU, so a card bought there _might_ not work on Germany.
>> Better ask.
>>
> Technically, UK SIMs and EU ones are the same. A SIM bought in the UK will
> work accross Europe - and beyond.
longer provide the same features in terms of EU roaming.
--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards
Dave Royal
Aug 6, 2023, 12:24:23 PM8/6/23
to
users but 'using WhatsApp' means different things to each of them.
I don't think of WA Chat as being equivalent to an SMS, though obviously
they are both messaging systems. Sent me an SMS and I'll probably read it
right away, if I have the phone with me. Send me a WA chat and I might
notice it the same day: I don't have alerts turned on for WA because I
don't think of WA messages as potentially important.
But every sender and message recipient will have their own modus operandi.
I do make WA voice calls if I have a good wifi signal, in a shop for
instance.
sms
Aug 6, 2023, 12:36:16 PM8/6/23
to
On 7/24/2023 1:21 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> Typically the best thing is to have a phone with dual SIMs, and buy a
> prepaid SIM on Europe for the duration.
It's now a hassle in terms of European SIM cards if you're visiting both
> Typically the best thing is to have a phone with dual SIMs, and buy a
> prepaid SIM on Europe for the duration.
the UK and an EU country. Roaming policies have changed with limits on data.
In Europe, most people are using WhatsApp for voice calls and messaging
because of the high cost of voice calls due to "Caller Pays." You still
want to have a phone number in the EU with prepaid and avoid data-only
SIMs and eSIMs. Or rent an incoming EU number from Localphone if you
have a data-only SIM or eSIM.
Chris
Aug 6, 2023, 4:25:58 PM8/6/23
to
sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 8/6/2023 6:42 AM, Dave Royal wrote:
>> On 6 Aug 2023 14:13:06 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>
>>> As I am from "here", meaning, the EU union, I have no experience with
>>> getting a "local" SIM on Britain or Germany (I have my own permanent
>>> card which is supposed to work on the entire union). Britain is no
>>> longer on the EU, so a card bought there _might_ not work on Germany.
>>> Better ask.
>>>
>> Technically, UK SIMs and EU ones are the same. A SIM bought in the UK will
>> work accross Europe - and beyond.
>
> Pre-Brexit that was the case. Now, as you stated, many UK providers no
> longer provide the same features in terms of EU roaming.
The features haven't changed. Costs have (for some).
> On 8/6/2023 6:42 AM, Dave Royal wrote:
>> On 6 Aug 2023 14:13:06 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>
>>> As I am from "here", meaning, the EU union, I have no experience with
>>> getting a "local" SIM on Britain or Germany (I have my own permanent
>>> card which is supposed to work on the entire union). Britain is no
>>> longer on the EU, so a card bought there _might_ not work on Germany.
>>> Better ask.
>>>
>> Technically, UK SIMs and EU ones are the same. A SIM bought in the UK will
>> work accross Europe - and beyond.
>
> Pre-Brexit that was the case. Now, as you stated, many UK providers no
> longer provide the same features in terms of EU roaming.
Carlos E.R.
Aug 6, 2023, 5:37:41 PM8/6/23
to
SMS, so they are mostly spam, while an WA will be private, from family
or friends, thus important and sometimes even urgent.
> But every sender and message recipient will have their own modus operandi.
> I do make WA voice calls if I have a good wifi signal, in a shop for
> instance.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Dave Royal
Aug 7, 2023, 3:06:52 AM8/7/23
to
On 6 Aug 2023 23:34:08 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>Here (Spain) it is usually the reverse. Only commercial entities use
>SMS, so they are mostly spam, while an WA will be private, from family
>or friends, thus important and sometimes even urgent.
I doubt if it's a national characteristic. I think it's more likely habit,
>Here (Spain) it is usually the reverse. Only commercial entities use
>SMS, so they are mostly spam, while an WA will be private, from family
>or friends, thus important and sometimes even urgent.
evolved within a family or a circle of friends. Most of my family use
iPhones, including me because they give me old ones, whereas I started on
Android.
Yes, SMS is used by commercial entities, but some of that is worth reading
immediately - impending deliveries, imminent medical appointments... Some
is spam - invitations to review something you've just bought for example -
but not much. If I send an SMS "arriving 5 minutes" people usually get it.
(And because I have an iPhone I turn iMessage off to ensure it /is/ sent
as an SMS, but that's OT.)
And yes, a WhatsApp Chat message will be personal. But not important: the
word 'chat' in English implies unimportance: it's why I've never thought
of it as a 'message'. What word is used in Spain for that feature of
WhatsApp? Maybe there /are/ national differences?
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 7, 2023, 4:13:18 AM8/7/23
to
Am 07.08.23 um 09:06 schrieb Dave Royal:
at best in private circles accepted that agree to use it. Professional
organisations do not use it.
--
Alea iacta est
> I doubt if it's a national characteristic. I think it's more likely habit,
> evolved within a family or a circle of friends. Most of my family use
> iPhones, including me because they give me old ones, whereas I started on
> Android.
>
> Yes, SMS is used by commercial entities, but some of that is worth reading
> immediately - impending deliveries, imminent medical appointments...
I totally agree. WA is Zuckerberg proprietary crap. Not standardised and
> evolved within a family or a circle of friends. Most of my family use
> iPhones, including me because they give me old ones, whereas I started on
> Android.
>
> Yes, SMS is used by commercial entities, but some of that is worth reading
> immediately - impending deliveries, imminent medical appointments...
at best in private circles accepted that agree to use it. Professional
organisations do not use it.
--
Alea iacta est
Java Jive
Aug 7, 2023, 5:16:14 AM8/7/23
to
that seems a fair and accurate description :-(
--
Fake news kills!
I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk
Frank Slootweg
Aug 7, 2023, 8:25:18 AM8/7/23
to
Dave Royal <da...@dave123royal.com> wrote:
[...]
derived from WhatsApp - is both a verb and a noun, like '[to] text' is
used in the US (and AU, others?).
AFAIC, and that probably goes for most/all people, as with SMS,
e-mail, phone calls, <whatever>, the importance does not lie in the
medium used, but in the content of the message.
[...]
> And yes, a WhatsApp Chat message will be personal. But not important: the
> word 'chat' in English implies unimportance: it's why I've never thought
> of it as a 'message'. What word is used in Spain for that feature of
> WhatsApp? Maybe there /are/ national differences?
You might be surprised to learn that here in The Netherlands, 'app' -
> word 'chat' in English implies unimportance: it's why I've never thought
> of it as a 'message'. What word is used in Spain for that feature of
> WhatsApp? Maybe there /are/ national differences?
derived from WhatsApp - is both a verb and a noun, like '[to] text' is
used in the US (and AU, others?).
AFAIC, and that probably goes for most/all people, as with SMS,
e-mail, phone calls, <whatever>, the importance does not lie in the
medium used, but in the content of the message.
Carlos E.R.
Aug 7, 2023, 9:49:47 AM8/7/23
to
speaking fast. Written "wasap".
There are national differences, because here the tool is extremely
popular, it has displaced SMS which "nobody" uses, except commercial
entities. Sure, it can be important things.
It is estimated 33 million users here, while population is 47 millions.
The reason is that SMS has a cost, approximately 10..20 cents, except
for those that have a plan that covers it (typically a thousand SMS
free). But not everybody has free sms here, I personally know people
which have to pay each SMS they send. Meanwhile, WhatsApp is free as
long as you have internet, be it via phone data or WiFi. The telcos did
not react in time and they lost the text market.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Ken Blake
Aug 7, 2023, 10:17:23 AM8/7/23
to
On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 15:45:42 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>On 2023-08-07 09:06, Dave Royal wrote:
>> On 6 Aug 2023 23:34:08 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>>> Here (Spain) it is usually the reverse. Only commercial entities use
>>> SMS, so they are mostly spam, while an WA will be private, from family
>>> or friends, thus important and sometimes even urgent.
>>
>> I doubt if it's a national characteristic. I think it's more likely habit,
>> evolved within a family or a circle of friends. Most of my family use
>> iPhones, including me because they give me old ones, whereas I started on
>> Android.
>>
>> Yes, SMS is used by commercial entities, but some of that is worth reading
>> immediately - impending deliveries, imminent medical appointments... Some
>> is spam - invitations to review something you've just bought for example -
>> but not much. If I send an SMS "arriving 5 minutes" people usually get it.
>> (And because I have an iPhone I turn iMessage off to ensure it /is/ sent
>> as an SMS, but that's OT.)
>>
>> And yes, a WhatsApp Chat message will be personal. But not important: the
>> word 'chat' in English implies unimportance: it's why I've never thought
>> of it as a 'message'. What word is used in Spain for that feature of
>> WhatsApp? Maybe there /are/ national differences?
>
>We say "uasap" which is what "whatsapp" sounds like in Spanish when
>speaking fast. Written "wasap".
Wasup, Doc?
<robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>On 2023-08-07 09:06, Dave Royal wrote:
>> On 6 Aug 2023 23:34:08 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>>> Here (Spain) it is usually the reverse. Only commercial entities use
>>> SMS, so they are mostly spam, while an WA will be private, from family
>>> or friends, thus important and sometimes even urgent.
>>
>> I doubt if it's a national characteristic. I think it's more likely habit,
>> evolved within a family or a circle of friends. Most of my family use
>> iPhones, including me because they give me old ones, whereas I started on
>> Android.
>>
>> Yes, SMS is used by commercial entities, but some of that is worth reading
>> immediately - impending deliveries, imminent medical appointments... Some
>> is spam - invitations to review something you've just bought for example -
>> but not much. If I send an SMS "arriving 5 minutes" people usually get it.
>> (And because I have an iPhone I turn iMessage off to ensure it /is/ sent
>> as an SMS, but that's OT.)
>>
>> And yes, a WhatsApp Chat message will be personal. But not important: the
>> word 'chat' in English implies unimportance: it's why I've never thought
>> of it as a 'message'. What word is used in Spain for that feature of
>> WhatsApp? Maybe there /are/ national differences?
>
>We say "uasap" which is what "whatsapp" sounds like in Spanish when
>speaking fast. Written "wasap".
Chris
Aug 7, 2023, 2:37:57 PM8/7/23
to
Java Jive <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 07/08/2023 09:13, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>
>> Am 07.08.23 um 09:06 schrieb Dave Royal:
>>>
>>> I doubt if it's a national characteristic. I think it's more likely habit,
>>> evolved within a family or a circle of friends. Most of my family use
>>> iPhones, including me because they give me old ones, whereas I started on
>>> Android.
>>>
>>> Yes, SMS is used by commercial entities, but some of that is worth reading
>>> immediately - impending deliveries, imminent medical appointments...
>>
>> I totally agree. WA is Zuckerberg proprietary crap. Not standardised and
>> at best in private circles accepted that agree to use it. Professional
>> organisations do not use it.
>
> Which makes the current UK government 'unprofessional'! Unfortunately,
> that seems a fair and accurate description :-(
Yeah, it's depressing that UKgov is run via WA. The former health secretary
> On 07/08/2023 09:13, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>
>> Am 07.08.23 um 09:06 schrieb Dave Royal:
>>>
>>> I doubt if it's a national characteristic. I think it's more likely habit,
>>> evolved within a family or a circle of friends. Most of my family use
>>> iPhones, including me because they give me old ones, whereas I started on
>>> Android.
>>>
>>> Yes, SMS is used by commercial entities, but some of that is worth reading
>>> immediately - impending deliveries, imminent medical appointments...
>>
>> I totally agree. WA is Zuckerberg proprietary crap. Not standardised and
>> at best in private circles accepted that agree to use it. Professional
>> organisations do not use it.
>
> Which makes the current UK government 'unprofessional'! Unfortunately,
> that seems a fair and accurate description :-(
recently had 100,000 messages leaked by a journalist. The former Prime
Minister tried avoid releasing his messages to enquiry by saying he forgot
his PIN.
Unprofessional doesn't begin to describe it.
Surely the UK has enough tech nouse to create its own messaging app.
Carlos E.R.
Aug 7, 2023, 4:45:41 PM8/7/23
to
We proved to you that many professional organizations DO use WhatsApp.
Do we start again that silliness?
Quick examples:
https://social.klm.com/whatsapp
https://www.iberia.com/es/whatsapp-iberia/
https://wwws.airfrance.com.cn/en/information/prepare/services/reseaux-sociaux
https://bb.usembassy.gov/u-s-embassy-bridgetown-says-whats-up-on-whatsapp/
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 8, 2023, 1:39:46 AM8/8/23
to
Am 07.08.23 um 22:45 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
communication. And you know that very well but you are a fanboy of this
Zuckerberg crap for years.
--
Alea iacta est
> On 2023-08-07 10:13, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 07.08.23 um 09:06 schrieb Dave Royal:
>>> I doubt if it's a national characteristic. I think it's more likely habit,
>>> evolved within a family or a circle of friends. Most of my family use
>>> iPhones, including me because they give me old ones, whereas I started on
>>> Android.
>>>
>>> Yes, SMS is used by commercial entities, but some of that is worth reading
>>> immediately - impending deliveries, imminent medical appointments...
>>
>> I totally agree. WA is Zuckerberg proprietary crap. Not standardised and
>> at best in private circles accepted that agree to use it. Professional
>> organisations do not use it.
>
>
> LOL.
>
> We proved to you that many professional organizations DO use WhatsApp.
> Do we start again that silliness?
Porfessionals do not use undocumented and proprietary ways of
>> Am 07.08.23 um 09:06 schrieb Dave Royal:
>>> I doubt if it's a national characteristic. I think it's more likely habit,
>>> evolved within a family or a circle of friends. Most of my family use
>>> iPhones, including me because they give me old ones, whereas I started on
>>> Android.
>>>
>>> Yes, SMS is used by commercial entities, but some of that is worth reading
>>> immediately - impending deliveries, imminent medical appointments...
>>
>> I totally agree. WA is Zuckerberg proprietary crap. Not standardised and
>> at best in private circles accepted that agree to use it. Professional
>> organisations do not use it.
>
>
> LOL.
>
> We proved to you that many professional organizations DO use WhatsApp.
> Do we start again that silliness?
communication. And you know that very well but you are a fanboy of this
Zuckerberg crap for years.
--
Alea iacta est
Chris
Aug 8, 2023, 2:49:01 AM8/8/23
to
Jörg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 07.08.23 um 22:45 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
>> On 2023-08-07 10:13, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 07.08.23 um 09:06 schrieb Dave Royal:
>>>> I doubt if it's a national characteristic. I think it's more likely habit,
>>>> evolved within a family or a circle of friends. Most of my family use
>>>> iPhones, including me because they give me old ones, whereas I started on
>>>> Android.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, SMS is used by commercial entities, but some of that is worth reading
>>>> immediately - impending deliveries, imminent medical appointments...
>>>
>>> I totally agree. WA is Zuckerberg proprietary crap. Not standardised and
>>> at best in private circles accepted that agree to use it. Professional
>>> organisations do not use it.
>>
>>
>> LOL.
>>
>> We proved to you that many professional organizations DO use WhatsApp.
>> Do we start again that silliness?
>
> Porfessionals do not use undocumented and proprietary ways of
> communication.
The reality says otherwise.
> Am 07.08.23 um 22:45 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
>> On 2023-08-07 10:13, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 07.08.23 um 09:06 schrieb Dave Royal:
>>>> I doubt if it's a national characteristic. I think it's more likely habit,
>>>> evolved within a family or a circle of friends. Most of my family use
>>>> iPhones, including me because they give me old ones, whereas I started on
>>>> Android.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, SMS is used by commercial entities, but some of that is worth reading
>>>> immediately - impending deliveries, imminent medical appointments...
>>>
>>> I totally agree. WA is Zuckerberg proprietary crap. Not standardised and
>>> at best in private circles accepted that agree to use it. Professional
>>> organisations do not use it.
>>
>>
>> LOL.
>>
>> We proved to you that many professional organizations DO use WhatsApp.
>> Do we start again that silliness?
>
> Porfessionals do not use undocumented and proprietary ways of
> communication.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 8, 2023, 3:40:55 AM8/8/23
to
Am 08.08.23 um 08:48 schrieb Chris:
No. In my country authorities forbid the use of WA for Police, Armed
Forces and Educational institutions. And never ever communicated an
enterprise over this channel or tried it.
In developing countries this might be still different.
--
Alea iacta est
Forces and Educational institutions. And never ever communicated an
enterprise over this channel or tried it.
In developing countries this might be still different.
--
Alea iacta est
Carlos E.R.
Aug 8, 2023, 6:12:23 AM8/8/23
to
KLM, from the Netherlands. You just classified Netherlands as a
developing country.
<https://www.klm.nl/en/contact/booking/help-online-booking>
Dutch government:
<https://www.netherlandsworldwide.nl/contact>
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 8, 2023, 6:45:38 AM8/8/23
to
Am 08.08.23 um 12:10 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
WA on their company devices because this crap exposes their clients in
an unwanted and uncontrolled way. The use of WA does not comply with the
GDPR.
Nowhere in the EU. And you know that very well.
If I ever miss a KLM flight because I do not use WA, KLM is liable for
the damage. EU rules apply also for the Netherlands and Air France/KLM.
--
Alea iacta est
> On 2023-08-08 09:40, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> No. In my country authorities forbid the use of WA for Police, Armed
>> Forces and Educational institutions. And never ever communicated an
>> enterprise over this channel or tried it.
>>
>> In developing countries this might be still different.
>
> Like the entire EU. Yeah, sure.
Nonsense. In the EU even most commercial enterprises forbid the use of
>> No. In my country authorities forbid the use of WA for Police, Armed
>> Forces and Educational institutions. And never ever communicated an
>> enterprise over this channel or tried it.
>>
>> In developing countries this might be still different.
>
> Like the entire EU. Yeah, sure.
WA on their company devices because this crap exposes their clients in
an unwanted and uncontrolled way. The use of WA does not comply with the
GDPR.
Nowhere in the EU. And you know that very well.
If I ever miss a KLM flight because I do not use WA, KLM is liable for
the damage. EU rules apply also for the Netherlands and Air France/KLM.
--
Alea iacta est
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 8, 2023, 6:47:28 AM8/8/23
to
Am 08.08.23 um 12:10 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
> Like the entire EU. Yeah, sure.
>
> KLM, from the Netherlands. You just classified Netherlands as a
> developing country.
>
> <https://www.klm.nl/en/contact/booking/help-online-booking>
>
> Dutch government:
> <https://www.netherlandsworldwide.nl/contact>
Read:
>
> KLM, from the Netherlands. You just classified Netherlands as a
> developing country.
>
> <https://www.klm.nl/en/contact/booking/help-online-booking>
>
> Dutch government:
> <https://www.netherlandsworldwide.nl/contact>
https://www.whatsapp.com/legal?lang=en
--
Alea iacta est
Chris
Aug 8, 2023, 4:34:46 PM8/8/23
to
Jörg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 08.08.23 um 08:48 schrieb Chris:
>> Jörg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> Am 07.08.23 um 22:45 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
>>>> On 2023-08-07 10:13, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>>> Am 07.08.23 um 09:06 schrieb Dave Royal:
>>>>>> I doubt if it's a national characteristic. I think it's more likely habit,
>>>>>> evolved within a family or a circle of friends. Most of my family use
>>>>>> iPhones, including me because they give me old ones, whereas I started on
>>>>>> Android.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, SMS is used by commercial entities, but some of that is worth reading
>>>>>> immediately - impending deliveries, imminent medical appointments...
>>>>>
>>>>> I totally agree. WA is Zuckerberg proprietary crap. Not standardised and
>>>>> at best in private circles accepted that agree to use it. Professional
>>>>> organisations do not use it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> LOL.
>>>>
>>>> We proved to you that many professional organizations DO use WhatsApp.
>>>> Do we start again that silliness?
>>>
>>> Porfessionals do not use undocumented and proprietary ways of
>>> communication.
>>
>> The reality says otherwise.
>
> No. In my country authorities forbid the use of WA for Police, Armed
> Forces and Educational institutions.
That may true. Plenty other professionals use WhatsApp. You'd be shocked to
> Am 08.08.23 um 08:48 schrieb Chris:
>> Jörg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> Am 07.08.23 um 22:45 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
>>>> On 2023-08-07 10:13, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>>> Am 07.08.23 um 09:06 schrieb Dave Royal:
>>>>>> I doubt if it's a national characteristic. I think it's more likely habit,
>>>>>> evolved within a family or a circle of friends. Most of my family use
>>>>>> iPhones, including me because they give me old ones, whereas I started on
>>>>>> Android.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, SMS is used by commercial entities, but some of that is worth reading
>>>>>> immediately - impending deliveries, imminent medical appointments...
>>>>>
>>>>> I totally agree. WA is Zuckerberg proprietary crap. Not standardised and
>>>>> at best in private circles accepted that agree to use it. Professional
>>>>> organisations do not use it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> LOL.
>>>>
>>>> We proved to you that many professional organizations DO use WhatsApp.
>>>> Do we start again that silliness?
>>>
>>> Porfessionals do not use undocumented and proprietary ways of
>>> communication.
>>
>> The reality says otherwise.
>
> No. In my country authorities forbid the use of WA for Police, Armed
> Forces and Educational institutions.
find out how many governments use whatsapp as their primary comms.
> And never ever communicated an
> enterprise over this channel or tried it.
Carlos E.R.
Aug 8, 2023, 5:38:52 PM8/8/23
to
And you know it very well.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
sms
Aug 8, 2023, 6:53:20 PM8/8/23
to
On 8/8/2023 2:35 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
<snip>
> And you know it very well.
Jorge is wrong of course™, and of course he knows it.
Businesses give customers various options of how to communicate with
them. WhatsApp is not required, it's one of multiple options (SMS,
eMail, voice calls). WhatsApp has some advantages over SMS and eMail so
many people prefer it.
<snip>
> And you know it very well.
Businesses give customers various options of how to communicate with
them. WhatsApp is not required, it's one of multiple options (SMS,
eMail, voice calls). WhatsApp has some advantages over SMS and eMail so
many people prefer it.
Frank Slootweg
Aug 9, 2023, 1:34:23 PM8/9/23
to
airline as the most blatant and embarassing proof of the contrary.
But by all means, keep stamping them there feet.
Frank Slootweg
Aug 9, 2023, 1:50:44 PM8/9/23
to
Ken Blake <K...@invalid.news.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 15:45:42 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
[...]
> On Mon, 7 Aug 2023 15:45:42 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
> >We say "uasap" which is what "whatsapp" sounds like in Spanish when
> >speaking fast. Written "wasap".
>
> Wasup, Doc?
Lightning didn't strike, but we did.
> >speaking fast. Written "wasap".
>
> Wasup, Doc?
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 10, 2023, 1:42:45 AM8/10/23
to
Am 08.08.23 um 22:34 schrieb Chris:
American Banks pay 550 million Dollars because their employees used WA
to communicate with their clients (in German):
https://www.heise.de/news/USA-Banken-zahlen-550-Millionen-US-Dollar-Strafe-fuer-Nutzung-von-WhatsApp-Co-9238711.html?wt_mc=rss.red.ho.ho.rdf.beitrag.beitrag
--
Alea iacta est
to communicate with their clients (in German):
https://www.heise.de/news/USA-Banken-zahlen-550-Millionen-US-Dollar-Strafe-fuer-Nutzung-von-WhatsApp-Co-9238711.html?wt_mc=rss.red.ho.ho.rdf.beitrag.beitrag
--
Alea iacta est
Dave Royal
Aug 10, 2023, 3:14:59 AM8/10/23
to
On 24 Jul 2023 22:21:22 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>Don't forget RCS. This can be considered as an enhancement on SMS
>working over internet, so that if both correspondents have it⁽¹⁾, mutual
>messaging is gratis. iphones don't have it. So make sure your SMS app
>supports it. Experiment before you travel.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services
>https://jibe.google.com
>
>(1) There is a more or less subtle colour difference that tells you if
>your intended correspondent has RCS. For instance, you start to type a
>message, and see a little label saying "SMS", you don't have RCS for
>this conversation. Or you may see a label saying "RCS".
>
>I just tried in my phone, and inside the text box, prior to typing, I
>read "text message" (faint grey box) or "RCS message" (bluish box). This
>is much better than a year ago, when the difference was subtle.
>
From a couple of days ago:
[quote]Speaking of SMSes, Google announced today it's making its Messages
by Google app more secure with improvements to RCS, or Rich Communication
Services -- a protocol aimed at replacing SMS and is more on par with the
advanced features found in Apple's iMessage.[end quote]
From https://m.slashdot.org/story/417644
This has little to do with making messages more secure, though it will,
and everything to do with Google trying to compete with Apple who have
rolled SMSes into iMessage.
Everybody I know (in the UK) who has any sort of contract with a mobile
operator gets unlimited (or a huge number) of texts free. But fewer and
fewer of the 'texts' people send are actually SMSes.
>
>Don't forget RCS. This can be considered as an enhancement on SMS
>working over internet, so that if both correspondents have it⁽¹⁾, mutual
>messaging is gratis. iphones don't have it. So make sure your SMS app
>supports it. Experiment before you travel.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services
>https://jibe.google.com
>
>(1) There is a more or less subtle colour difference that tells you if
>your intended correspondent has RCS. For instance, you start to type a
>message, and see a little label saying "SMS", you don't have RCS for
>this conversation. Or you may see a label saying "RCS".
>
>I just tried in my phone, and inside the text box, prior to typing, I
>read "text message" (faint grey box) or "RCS message" (bluish box). This
>is much better than a year ago, when the difference was subtle.
>
From a couple of days ago:
[quote]Speaking of SMSes, Google announced today it's making its Messages
by Google app more secure with improvements to RCS, or Rich Communication
Services -- a protocol aimed at replacing SMS and is more on par with the
advanced features found in Apple's iMessage.[end quote]
From https://m.slashdot.org/story/417644
This has little to do with making messages more secure, though it will,
and everything to do with Google trying to compete with Apple who have
rolled SMSes into iMessage.
Everybody I know (in the UK) who has any sort of contract with a mobile
operator gets unlimited (or a huge number) of texts free. But fewer and
fewer of the 'texts' people send are actually SMSes.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 10, 2023, 3:34:33 AM8/10/23
to
Am 10.08.23 um 09:14 schrieb Dave Royal:
Threema, Telegram or WA/Facebook-messenger.
> From https://m.slashdot.org/story/417644
>
> This has little to do with making messages more secure, though it will,
> and everything to do with Google trying to compete with Apple who have
> rolled SMSes into iMessage.
Apple "has not rolled SMS into iMessage". iMsg is using completely
different technologies like all other messengers. SMS is just the fallback.
> Everybody I know (in the UK) who has any sort of contract with a mobile
> operator gets unlimited (or a huge number) of texts free. But fewer and
> fewer of the 'texts' people send are actually SMSes.
Who cares? IP-based instant messengers are much more attractive for
private communication. SMS is dead in this domain.
--
Alea iacta est
> On 24 Jul 2023 22:21:22 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>>
>> Don't forget RCS. This can be considered as an enhancement on SMS
>> working over internet, so that if both correspondents have it⁽¹⁾, mutual
>> messaging is gratis. iphones don't have it. So make sure your SMS app
>> supports it. Experiment before you travel.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services
>> https://jibe.google.com
>>
>> (1) There is a more or less subtle colour difference that tells you if
>> your intended correspondent has RCS. For instance, you start to type a
>> message, and see a little label saying "SMS", you don't have RCS for
>> this conversation. Or you may see a label saying "RCS".
>>
>> I just tried in my phone, and inside the text box, prior to typing, I
>> read "text message" (faint grey box) or "RCS message" (bluish box). This
>> is much better than a year ago, when the difference was subtle.
>>
>
> From a couple of days ago:
>
> [quote]Speaking of SMSes, Google announced today it's making its Messages
> by Google app more secure with improvements to RCS, or Rich Communication
> Services -- a protocol aimed at replacing SMS and is more on par with the
> advanced features found in Apple's iMessage.[end quote]
Futile try. RCS is dead and no match to messengers like iMsg, Signal,
>
>>
>> Don't forget RCS. This can be considered as an enhancement on SMS
>> working over internet, so that if both correspondents have it⁽¹⁾, mutual
>> messaging is gratis. iphones don't have it. So make sure your SMS app
>> supports it. Experiment before you travel.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Communication_Services
>> https://jibe.google.com
>>
>> (1) There is a more or less subtle colour difference that tells you if
>> your intended correspondent has RCS. For instance, you start to type a
>> message, and see a little label saying "SMS", you don't have RCS for
>> this conversation. Or you may see a label saying "RCS".
>>
>> I just tried in my phone, and inside the text box, prior to typing, I
>> read "text message" (faint grey box) or "RCS message" (bluish box). This
>> is much better than a year ago, when the difference was subtle.
>>
>
> From a couple of days ago:
>
> [quote]Speaking of SMSes, Google announced today it's making its Messages
> by Google app more secure with improvements to RCS, or Rich Communication
> Services -- a protocol aimed at replacing SMS and is more on par with the
> advanced features found in Apple's iMessage.[end quote]
Threema, Telegram or WA/Facebook-messenger.
> From https://m.slashdot.org/story/417644
>
> This has little to do with making messages more secure, though it will,
> and everything to do with Google trying to compete with Apple who have
> rolled SMSes into iMessage.
different technologies like all other messengers. SMS is just the fallback.
> Everybody I know (in the UK) who has any sort of contract with a mobile
> operator gets unlimited (or a huge number) of texts free. But fewer and
> fewer of the 'texts' people send are actually SMSes.
private communication. SMS is dead in this domain.
--
Alea iacta est
Frank Slootweg
Aug 10, 2023, 10:30:15 AM8/10/23
to
This is about *absent* *archiving* of communication and also iMessage
and Signal are affected.
So nice try, but no cigar.
sms
Aug 10, 2023, 10:50:16 AM8/10/23
to
On 8/7/2023 6:45 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> The reason is that SMS has a cost, approximately 10..20 cents, except
> for those that have a plan that covers it (typically a thousand SMS
> free). But not everybody has free sms here, I personally know people
> which have to pay each SMS they send. Meanwhile, WhatsApp is free as
> long as you have internet, be it via phone data or WiFi. The telcos did
> not react in time and they lost the text market.
Much of Europe also has the bizarre "Caller Pays" system for voice
> The reason is that SMS has a cost, approximately 10..20 cents, except
> for those that have a plan that covers it (typically a thousand SMS
> free). But not everybody has free sms here, I personally know people
> which have to pay each SMS they send. Meanwhile, WhatsApp is free as
> long as you have internet, be it via phone data or WiFi. The telcos did
> not react in time and they lost the text market.
calls, so WhatsApp is widely used for voice calls as well.
sms
Aug 10, 2023, 10:55:54 AM8/10/23
to
On 7/24/2023 1:21 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
<snip>
<snip>
> Don't forget RCS. This can be considered as an enhancement on SMS
> working over internet, so that if both correspondents have it⁽¹⁾, mutual
> messaging is gratis. iphones don't have it. So make sure your SMS app
> supports it. Experiment before you travel.
RCS is the future, and eventually Apple will have no choice but to
> working over internet, so that if both correspondents have it⁽¹⁾, mutual
> messaging is gratis. iphones don't have it. So make sure your SMS app
> supports it. Experiment before you travel.
support it, they just are concerned about it because iMessage capability
is one reason that a lot of people choose the iPhone in the first place.
See "How Apple is holding back rich communication services" at
<https://www.fiercewireless.com/tech/how-apple-holding-back-rich-communication-services>.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 10, 2023, 1:08:44 PM8/10/23
to
Am 10.08.23 um 16:30 schrieb Frank Slootweg:
Professional organisations do not use WA.
WA in a professional context is an enormous risk for the companies involved.
--
Manus manum lavat
>>> That may true. Plenty other professionals use WhatsApp. You'd be shocked to
>>> find out how many governments use whatsapp as their primary comms.
>>
>> American Banks pay 550 million Dollars because their employees used WA
>> to communicate with their clients (in German):
>>
>> https://www.heise.de/news/USA-Banken-zahlen-550-Millionen-US-Dollar-Strafe-fuer-Nutzung-von-WhatsApp-Co-9238711.html?wt_mc=rss.red.ho.ho.rdf.beitrag.beitrag
>
> This doesn't say what you imply.
Didn't you read the thread?
>>> find out how many governments use whatsapp as their primary comms.
>>
>> American Banks pay 550 million Dollars because their employees used WA
>> to communicate with their clients (in German):
>>
>> https://www.heise.de/news/USA-Banken-zahlen-550-Millionen-US-Dollar-Strafe-fuer-Nutzung-von-WhatsApp-Co-9238711.html?wt_mc=rss.red.ho.ho.rdf.beitrag.beitrag
>
> This doesn't say what you imply.
Professional organisations do not use WA.
WA in a professional context is an enormous risk for the companies involved.
--
Manus manum lavat
Carlos E.R.
Aug 10, 2023, 5:33:36 PM8/10/23
to
On 2023-08-10 19:08, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 10.08.23 um 16:30 schrieb Frank Slootweg:
>> Jörg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> Am 08.08.23 um 22:34 schrieb Chris:
>>>> That may true. Plenty other professionals use WhatsApp. You'd be shocked to
>>>> find out how many governments use whatsapp as their primary comms.
>>>
>>> American Banks pay 550 million Dollars because their employees used WA
>>> to communicate with their clients (in German):
>>>
>>> https://www.heise.de/news/USA-Banken-zahlen-550-Millionen-US-Dollar-Strafe-fuer-Nutzung-von-WhatsApp-Co-9238711.html?wt_mc=rss.red.ho.ho.rdf.beitrag.beitrag
>>
>> This doesn't say what you imply.
>
> Didn't you read the thread?
>
> Professional organisations do not use WA.
Yeah, sure.
> Am 10.08.23 um 16:30 schrieb Frank Slootweg:
>> Jörg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>> Am 08.08.23 um 22:34 schrieb Chris:
>>>> That may true. Plenty other professionals use WhatsApp. You'd be shocked to
>>>> find out how many governments use whatsapp as their primary comms.
>>>
>>> American Banks pay 550 million Dollars because their employees used WA
>>> to communicate with their clients (in German):
>>>
>>> https://www.heise.de/news/USA-Banken-zahlen-550-Millionen-US-Dollar-Strafe-fuer-Nutzung-von-WhatsApp-Co-9238711.html?wt_mc=rss.red.ho.ho.rdf.beitrag.beitrag
>>
>> This doesn't say what you imply.
>
> Didn't you read the thread?
>
> Professional organisations do not use WA.
>
> WA in a professional context is an enormous risk for the companies involved.
>
--
Carlos E.R.
Aug 10, 2023, 5:48:46 PM8/10/23
to
messages improved to bigger size and photos, which on some companies was
quite expensive to use (like one euro per message). I have seen it used
often by commercials, but not by people (because of the cost).
So, an Android user today can send an SMS, which upgrades automatically
to MMS if needed (and available), but uses instead RCS when both
destination and origin support it (and is gratis).
And what I have found recently is that RCS works in countries like
Switzerland that removed MMS, so no worries (ignore Jörg Lorenz
protestations :-p )
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 11, 2023, 12:55:00 AM8/11/23
to
Am 10.08.23 um 23:44 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
It certainly works here but it is by no means a competition to the
instant messengers. Google missed the train more than ten years ago. I
use a Pixel 7 alongside my iPhone 14. RCS has never played a role in the
consideration what to use for communication.
It is crap as far as privacy and functionality is concerned.
--
Alea iacta est
> And what I have found recently is that RCS works in countries like
> Switzerland that removed MMS, so no worries (ignore Jörg Lorenz
> protestations 😛 )
> Switzerland that removed MMS, so no worries (ignore Jörg Lorenz
It certainly works here but it is by no means a competition to the
instant messengers. Google missed the train more than ten years ago. I
use a Pixel 7 alongside my iPhone 14. RCS has never played a role in the
consideration what to use for communication.
It is crap as far as privacy and functionality is concerned.
--
Alea iacta est
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 11, 2023, 1:03:46 AM8/11/23
to
Am 11.08.23 um 06:54 schrieb Jörg Lorenz:
share of the installed base in Switzerland does not support RCS.
--
Alea iacta est
> Am 10.08.23 um 23:44 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
>> And what I have found recently is that RCS works in countries like
>> Switzerland that removed MMS, so no worries (ignore Jörg Lorenz
>> protestations 😛 )
>
> It certainly works here but it is by no means a competition to the
> instant messengers. Google missed the train more than ten years ago. I
> use a Pixel 7 alongside my iPhone 14. RCS has never played a role in the
> consideration what to use for communication.
RCS is also without market impact because Apple which has more than 50%
>> And what I have found recently is that RCS works in countries like
>> Switzerland that removed MMS, so no worries (ignore Jörg Lorenz
>> protestations 😛 )
>
> It certainly works here but it is by no means a competition to the
> instant messengers. Google missed the train more than ten years ago. I
> use a Pixel 7 alongside my iPhone 14. RCS has never played a role in the
> consideration what to use for communication.
share of the installed base in Switzerland does not support RCS.
--
Alea iacta est
Dave Royal
Aug 11, 2023, 2:41:44 AM8/11/23
to
On 10 Aug 2023 23:44:13 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>Several telephone companies are disabling MMS, which was the SMS texts
>messages improved to bigger size and photos, which on some companies was
>quite expensive to use (like one euro per message). I have seen it used
>often by commercials, but not by people (because of the cost).
>
>So, an Android user today can send an SMS, which upgrades automatically
>to MMS if needed (and available), but uses instead RCS when both
>destination and origin support it (and is gratis).
I've never (deliberately) sent an MMS, which have always been expensive. I
>
>Several telephone companies are disabling MMS, which was the SMS texts
>messages improved to bigger size and photos, which on some companies was
>quite expensive to use (like one euro per message). I have seen it used
>often by commercials, but not by people (because of the cost).
>
>So, an Android user today can send an SMS, which upgrades automatically
>to MMS if needed (and available), but uses instead RCS when both
>destination and origin support it (and is gratis).
always thought it was for just for pictures not, for example, rich text. I
assume - but don't know for certain - that the 'unlimited text' in phone
plans means SMSes. But it may now include RCS - I'll look at the 'small
print' in future.
But I have an iPhone (my children give me their old ones, and they're
small - the phones not the children). And I turn iMessage off which forces
it to send SMSes.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 11, 2023, 2:52:53 AM8/11/23
to
Am 11.08.23 um 08:41 schrieb Dave Royal:
Apple does not support RCS for obvious reasons. Why should you turn off
iMsg? It has much much more functions and features than SMS or MMS.
In most countries MMS is turned off already.
--
Alea iacta est
iMsg? It has much much more functions and features than SMS or MMS.
In most countries MMS is turned off already.
--
Alea iacta est
Dave Royal
Aug 11, 2023, 3:27:14 AM8/11/23
to
On 11 Aug 2023 08:52:51 +0200 Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
>
>Apple does not support RCS for obvious reasons. Why should you turn off
>iMsg? It has much much more functions and features than SMS or MMS.
>
I very often require the message to be sent _instantly_, including (as is
>
>
>Apple does not support RCS for obvious reasons. Why should you turn off
>iMsg? It has much much more functions and features than SMS or MMS.
>
usually the case at that moment) if I have no data connection. The usual
recipient also has an iPhone (with iMessage turned on) but possibly no
data connection. (Think railway tunnels with short gaps between them.)
I found that an iPhone will not do that unless I turn iMessage off. And
yes, I know that instant receipt of SMSes is not certain, but it's pretty
reliable.
I'm sometimes using an old out-of-support 4-inch iPhone too, which is
rarely online but great as a phone.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 11, 2023, 4:12:48 AM8/11/23
to
Am 11.08.23 um 09:27 schrieb Dave Royal:
> I found that an iPhone will not do that unless I turn iMessage off. And
> yes, I know that instant receipt of SMSes is not certain, but it's pretty
> reliable.
Messengers are at least as reliable.
--
Manus manum lavat
> On 11 Aug 2023 08:52:51 +0200 Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>
>>
>> Apple does not support RCS for obvious reasons. Why should you turn off
>> iMsg? It has much much more functions and features than SMS or MMS.
>>
> I very often require the message to be sent _instantly_, including (as is
> usually the case at that moment) if I have no data connection. The usual
> recipient also has an iPhone (with iMessage turned on) but possibly no
> data connection. (Think railway tunnels with short gaps between them.)
Not very probable nowadays. In such a case SMS won't work as well.
>>
>>
>> Apple does not support RCS for obvious reasons. Why should you turn off
>> iMsg? It has much much more functions and features than SMS or MMS.
>>
> I very often require the message to be sent _instantly_, including (as is
> usually the case at that moment) if I have no data connection. The usual
> recipient also has an iPhone (with iMessage turned on) but possibly no
> data connection. (Think railway tunnels with short gaps between them.)
> I found that an iPhone will not do that unless I turn iMessage off. And
> yes, I know that instant receipt of SMSes is not certain, but it's pretty
> reliable.
--
Manus manum lavat
Frank Slootweg
Aug 11, 2023, 6:00:59 AM8/11/23
to
Jörg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 10.08.23 um 16:30 schrieb Frank Slootweg:
> > Jörg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
> >> Am 08.08.23 um 22:34 schrieb Chris:
> >>> That may true. Plenty other professionals use WhatsApp. You'd be shocked to
> >>> find out how many governments use whatsapp as their primary comms.
> >>
> >> American Banks pay 550 million Dollars because their employees used WA
> >> to communicate with their clients (in German):
> >>
> >> https://www.heise.de/news/USA-Banken-zahlen-550-Millionen-US-Dollar-Strafe-fuer-Nutzung-von-WhatsApp-Co-9238711.html?wt_mc=rss.red.ho.ho.rdf.beitrag.beitrag
> >
> > This doesn't say what you imply.
>
> Didn't you read the thread?
Yes, I read both the thread and the heise online article you
> Am 10.08.23 um 16:30 schrieb Frank Slootweg:
> > Jörg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
> >> Am 08.08.23 um 22:34 schrieb Chris:
> >>> That may true. Plenty other professionals use WhatsApp. You'd be shocked to
> >>> find out how many governments use whatsapp as their primary comms.
> >>
> >> American Banks pay 550 million Dollars because their employees used WA
> >> to communicate with their clients (in German):
> >>
> >> https://www.heise.de/news/USA-Banken-zahlen-550-Millionen-US-Dollar-Strafe-fuer-Nutzung-von-WhatsApp-Co-9238711.html?wt_mc=rss.red.ho.ho.rdf.beitrag.beitrag
> >
> > This doesn't say what you imply.
>
> Didn't you read the thread?
referenced. That article does *not* say what you imply.
[Undoing pathetic, dishonest, silent snip:]
FS> This is about *absent* *archiving* of communication and also iMessage
FS> and Signal are affected.
FS>
FS> So nice try, but no cigar.
> Professional organisations do not use WA.
snipping the evidence each time. Foot stamping might be somewhat cute
for a three year old, for a presumed adult not so much.
> WA in a professional context is an enormous risk for the companies involved.
(Boy, that will get you on the wrong foot with a lot of the Apple
users!) and Signal
> --
> Manus manum lavat
Perhaps better to first start to get a grasp on German and English!?
Carlos E.R.
Aug 11, 2023, 8:31:52 AM8/11/23
to
On 2023-08-11 08:41, Dave Royal wrote:
> On 10 Aug 2023 23:44:13 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>> Several telephone companies are disabling MMS, which was the SMS texts
>> messages improved to bigger size and photos, which on some companies was
>> quite expensive to use (like one euro per message). I have seen it used
>> often by commercials, but not by people (because of the cost).
>>
>> So, an Android user today can send an SMS, which upgrades automatically
>> to MMS if needed (and available), but uses instead RCS when both
>> destination and origin support it (and is gratis).
>
> I've never (deliberately) sent an MMS, which have always been expensive. I
> always thought it was for just for pictures not, for example, rich text. I
> assume - but don't know for certain - that the 'unlimited text' in phone
> plans means SMSes. But it may now include RCS - I'll look at the 'small
> print' in future.
RCS goes over Internet, so it is unlimited and free, as long as you have
> On 10 Aug 2023 23:44:13 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>> Several telephone companies are disabling MMS, which was the SMS texts
>> messages improved to bigger size and photos, which on some companies was
>> quite expensive to use (like one euro per message). I have seen it used
>> often by commercials, but not by people (because of the cost).
>>
>> So, an Android user today can send an SMS, which upgrades automatically
>> to MMS if needed (and available), but uses instead RCS when both
>> destination and origin support it (and is gratis).
>
> I've never (deliberately) sent an MMS, which have always been expensive. I
> always thought it was for just for pictures not, for example, rich text. I
> assume - but don't know for certain - that the 'unlimited text' in phone
> plans means SMSes. But it may now include RCS - I'll look at the 'small
> print' in future.
Internet.
> But I have an iPhone (my children give me their old ones, and they're
> small - the phones not the children). And I turn iMessage off which forces
> it to send SMSes.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 11, 2023, 8:37:34 AM8/11/23
to
Am 11.08.23 um 14:28 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
nospam: Nobody needs RCS.
--
Alea iacta est
--
Alea iacta est
Carlos E.R.
Aug 11, 2023, 8:57:03 AM8/11/23
to
And I know other people that do.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 11, 2023, 11:55:22 AM8/11/23
to
Am 11.08.23 um 14:56 schrieb Carlos E.R.:
You don't need it you simply use it because it is there. Even WA can do
a lot more for you.
> And I know other people that do.
Because it is there.
--
Alea iacta est
a lot more for you.
> And I know other people that do.
--
Alea iacta est
The Real Bev
Aug 11, 2023, 1:29:08 PM8/11/23
to
controllable by the user? Must the two participants be using the same
system? Are they all different apps? How do I know what I'm using?
The article didn't answer those questions, obviously.
--
Cheers, Bev
"They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again
incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
Carlos E.R.
Aug 11, 2023, 2:28:11 PM8/11/23
to
On 2023-08-11 19:29, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 8/11/23 1:12 AM, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 09:27 schrieb Dave Royal:
>>> On 11 Aug 2023 08:52:51 +0200 Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Apple does not support RCS for obvious reasons. Why should you turn off
>>>> iMsg? It has much much more functions and features than SMS or MMS.
>>>>
>>> I very often require the message to be sent _instantly_, including
>>> (as is usually the case at that moment) if I have no data connection.
>>> The usual recipient also has an iPhone (with iMessage turned on) but
>>> possibly no data connection. (Think railway tunnels with short gaps
>>> between them.)
>>
>> Not very probable nowadays. In such a case SMS won't work as well.
>>
>>> I found that an iPhone will not do that unless I turn iMessage off.
>>> And yes, I know that instant receipt of SMSes is not certain, but
>>> it's pretty reliable.
>>
>> Messengers are at least as reliable.
>
> OK, I had to look up the difference between SMS, MMS and RCS. Is this
> controllable by the user? Must the two participants be using the same
> system? Are they all different apps? How do I know what I'm using?
If the phone only has SMS/MMS (or RCS is disabled), the messaging
> On 8/11/23 1:12 AM, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 09:27 schrieb Dave Royal:
>>> On 11 Aug 2023 08:52:51 +0200 Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Apple does not support RCS for obvious reasons. Why should you turn off
>>>> iMsg? It has much much more functions and features than SMS or MMS.
>>>>
>>> I very often require the message to be sent _instantly_, including
>>> (as is usually the case at that moment) if I have no data connection.
>>> The usual recipient also has an iPhone (with iMessage turned on) but
>>> possibly no data connection. (Think railway tunnels with short gaps
>>> between them.)
>>
>> Not very probable nowadays. In such a case SMS won't work as well.
>>
>>> I found that an iPhone will not do that unless I turn iMessage off.
>>> And yes, I know that instant receipt of SMSes is not certain, but
>>> it's pretty reliable.
>>
>> Messengers are at least as reliable.
>
> OK, I had to look up the difference between SMS, MMS and RCS. Is this
> controllable by the user? Must the two participants be using the same
> system? Are they all different apps? How do I know what I'm using?
application automatically switches to MMS depending on the content. I
have in the past used some option to choose SMS or MMS, but you may have
or not that choice in your program.
If RCS is available, the program will switch to RCS automatically IF the
other party can receive RCS. Depending on which app or phone, you may
see a faint "RCS message" or "SMS message" (or "text message") in the
text box.
You do not have direct control, except by enabling/disabling it generally.
As far as the protocol goes, it doesn't matter what system each
participant is using, with the exception of iPhone users, because Apple
refuses to implement the protocol in order to keep his walled garden
walled :-P
Anyone having a relatively recent or updated android phone, the default
messages application from Google does RCS.
The advantage over SMS/MMS is that messages (and messages with photos)
are gratis even across national borders, and that everybody has the
capability by default (except iPhones). Instead of wondering what app
will the other side have (whatsapp, signal, telegram, threema), you
simply know they will have "messages" installed by default and you can
just text away.
>
> The article didn't answer those questions, obviously.
>
--
The Real Bev
Aug 11, 2023, 3:26:06 PM8/11/23
to
prepaid phone plan (T-Mobile) charges a dime each (I think) for
sending/receiving text messages. Does it NOT then charge for MMC
messages? What if they contain ONLY text?
Now I have the keepgo SIM. I just recorded the 3038 MB it says I have
-- I only used 34MB testing connections etc. . Next time I actually use
it I can see how much gets used.
You can tell that I don't do much texting. Mostly I just get codes that
I need to feed into something I'm doing on my computer, which is just a
nuisance.
Onward and upward...
--
Cheers, Bev
All bleeding eventually stops.
Chris
Aug 11, 2023, 3:48:29 PM8/11/23
to
whatsapp and iMessage.
Dave Royal
Aug 11, 2023, 3:57:31 PM8/11/23
to
On 11 Aug 2023 10:29:03 -0700 The Real Bev wrote:
>
>OK, I had to look up the difference between SMS, MMS and RCS. Is this
>controllable by the user? Must the two participants be using the same
>system? Are they all different apps? How do I know what I'm using?
>
>The article didn't answer those questions, obviously.
>
SMS (and MMS) does not need an internet connection - that's the most
>
>OK, I had to look up the difference between SMS, MMS and RCS. Is this
>controllable by the user? Must the two participants be using the same
>system? Are they all different apps? How do I know what I'm using?
>
>The article didn't answer those questions, obviously.
>
important difference. RCS (iMessage, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram etc) all
need an internet connection.
On an iPhone you can specify that you want a message sent by SMS rather
than the default iMessage - Apple's proprietary equivalent of RCS, which
only works between iPhones. You only get a choice if the recipient has an
iPhone with iMessage enabled - otherwise it sends an SMS. At least I think
that's how it works.
I would expect Android phones will also give you that option with RCS but
I don't know. The recipient of an RCS would have to have an Android phone,
or some other phone that accepts RCS - even a dumb phone provided it had
an internet connection - but not an iPhone.
My choice is to stick with SMSes and use WhatsApp if I want to send
pictures, video etc. YMMV.
(I remember trying out the new SMS feature when I got a GSM phone in the
mid '90s, and thinking it would be very useful. I had to look for it, deep
in the phone's menu system - it wasn't aimed at ordinary users. By
coincidence the first ever SMS was sent by a guy working for the same
company in the UK as I was.)
Chris
Aug 11, 2023, 4:35:23 PM8/11/23
to
sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 8/7/2023 6:45 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> The reason is that SMS has a cost, approximately 10..20 cents, except
>> for those that have a plan that covers it (typically a thousand SMS
>> free). But not everybody has free sms here, I personally know people
>> which have to pay each SMS they send. Meanwhile, WhatsApp is free as
>> long as you have internet, be it via phone data or WiFi. The telcos did
>> not react in time and they lost the text market.
>
> Much of Europe also has the bizarre "Caller Pays" system for voice
> calls, so WhatsApp is widely used for voice calls as well.
As per usual this is US exceptionalism. The caller pays model is the
> On 8/7/2023 6:45 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
>> The reason is that SMS has a cost, approximately 10..20 cents, except
>> for those that have a plan that covers it (typically a thousand SMS
>> free). But not everybody has free sms here, I personally know people
>> which have to pay each SMS they send. Meanwhile, WhatsApp is free as
>> long as you have internet, be it via phone data or WiFi. The telcos did
>> not react in time and they lost the text market.
>
> Much of Europe also has the bizarre "Caller Pays" system for voice
> calls, so WhatsApp is widely used for voice calls as well.
standard all over the world. Only the US, Canada, Hong Kong and Singapore
use the receiver pays model.
It's moot these days, however, in Europe as most phone contracts have
unlimited calls included
sms
Aug 11, 2023, 4:55:32 PM8/11/23
to
On 8/11/2023 12:26 PM, The Real Bev wrote:
> The Pixel2 has 'Messages', so I guess I assume RCS, which is free. My
> prepaid phone plan (T-Mobile) charges a dime each (I think) for
> sending/receiving text messages. Does it NOT then charge for MMC
> messages? What if they contain ONLY text?
You cannot send or receive MMS without data, even if they contain only text.
> The Pixel2 has 'Messages', so I guess I assume RCS, which is free. My
> prepaid phone plan (T-Mobile) charges a dime each (I think) for
> sending/receiving text messages. Does it NOT then charge for MMC
> messages? What if they contain ONLY text?
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 11, 2023, 5:09:20 PM8/11/23
to
Am 11.08.23 um 21:48 schrieb Chris:
No. Only some of their employees illegaly and against internal
guidelines. That is by far not the same.
--
Alea iacta est
guidelines. That is by far not the same.
--
Alea iacta est
Carlos E.R.
Aug 11, 2023, 6:25:21 PM8/11/23
to
When I (from Spain) travel to Canada, for instance, those people phoning
me on my cell, pay the same as when I was in Spain, and I get to pay the
international part of the call. Both parties pay, but I pay the worst part.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Carlos E.R.
Aug 11, 2023, 6:30:22 PM8/11/23
to
says "you can not answer to this number" or similar, pick another
thread, another correspondent. When you see an empty box for typing
text, it will say "text message" or "RCS" in faint letters. And if you
send a message, it will have blue colour box.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Carlos E.R.
Aug 11, 2023, 6:35:26 PM8/11/23
to
On 2023-08-11 21:57, Dave Royal wrote:
> (I remember trying out the new SMS feature when I got a GSM phone in the
> mid '90s, and thinking it would be very useful. I had to look for it,
> deep in the phone's menu system - it wasn't aimed at ordinary users. By
> coincidence the first ever SMS was sent by a guy working for the same
> company in the UK as I was.)
Someone told me an history, I don't remember it well. Someone working at
> (I remember trying out the new SMS feature when I got a GSM phone in the
> mid '90s, and thinking it would be very useful. I had to look for it,
> deep in the phone's menu system - it wasn't aimed at ordinary users. By
> coincidence the first ever SMS was sent by a guy working for the same
> company in the UK as I was.)
Telefónica (the telephone company here) found and discovered the SMS
feature and sent a message to a lot of people, possibly coworkers. The
people that got it were astonished, they were investigating the system
to find out what had broken, how that could have happened.
Some thought that it was an internal feature not for the public.
And then they realized they were not charging for them! They soon
corrected that, and charged something like 20 or 30 cents per message.
It became popular, but little used. Not cheap to have conversations. A
long chat was more expensive than actually phone.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
The Real Bev
Aug 12, 2023, 1:22:37 AM8/12/23
to
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 12, 2023, 1:34:10 AM8/12/23
to
Am 11.08.23 um 19:29 schrieb The Real Bev:
in the upper right corner to open the settings. Open Messages Settings.
At the top you will see RCS-Chats. Tap on it. Then you will see the
whole set of options.
Here checked on a Pixel 7 with the orginal stock Android 13.
The other characteristics were discussed by Carlos.
--
Alea iacta est
> OK, I had to look up the difference between SMS, MMS and RCS. Is this
> controllable by the user? Must the two participants be using the same
> system? Are they all different apps? How do I know what I'm using?
You can easily control it. Open your Messenger app. Tap on your picture
> controllable by the user? Must the two participants be using the same
> system? Are they all different apps? How do I know what I'm using?
in the upper right corner to open the settings. Open Messages Settings.
At the top you will see RCS-Chats. Tap on it. Then you will see the
whole set of options.
Here checked on a Pixel 7 with the orginal stock Android 13.
The other characteristics were discussed by Carlos.
--
Alea iacta est
The Real Bev
Aug 12, 2023, 4:04:51 PM8/12/23
to
On 8/11/23 10:34 PM, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Am 11.08.23 um 19:29 schrieb The Real Bev:
>> OK, I had to look up the difference between SMS, MMS and RCS. Is this
>> controllable by the user? Must the two participants be using the same
>> system? Are they all different apps? How do I know what I'm using?
>
> You can easily control it. Open your Messenger app. Tap on your picture
> in the upper right corner to open the settings. Open Messages Settings.
>
> At the top you will see RCS-Chats. Tap on it. Then you will see the
> whole set of options.
>
> Here checked on a Pixel 7 with the orginal stock Android 13.
Yup. Various RCS things checked. If those are the defaults they seem
> Am 11.08.23 um 19:29 schrieb The Real Bev:
>> OK, I had to look up the difference between SMS, MMS and RCS. Is this
>> controllable by the user? Must the two participants be using the same
>> system? Are they all different apps? How do I know what I'm using?
>
> You can easily control it. Open your Messenger app. Tap on your picture
> in the upper right corner to open the settings. Open Messages Settings.
>
> At the top you will see RCS-Chats. Tap on it. Then you will see the
> whole set of options.
>
> Here checked on a Pixel 7 with the orginal stock Android 13.
reasonable.
> The other characteristics were discussed by Carlos.
video and something else. Not likely to do that until I get to a free
wifi site :-)
Thank you, gentlemen.
--
Cheers, Bev
Giving advice likely to kill the stupid is called passive eugenics.
Carlos E.R.
Aug 12, 2023, 6:47:46 PM8/12/23
to
On 2023-08-12 22:04, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 8/11/23 10:34 PM, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 19:29 schrieb The Real Bev:
>>> OK, I had to look up the difference between SMS, MMS and RCS. Is
>>> this controllable by the user? Must the two participants be using
>>> the same system? Are they all different apps? How do I know what
>>> I'm using?
>>
>> You can easily control it. Open your Messenger app. Tap on your picture
>> in the upper right corner to open the settings. Open Messages Settings.
>>
>> At the top you will see RCS-Chats. Tap on it. Then you will see the
>> whole set of options.
>>
>> Here checked on a Pixel 7 with the orginal stock Android 13.
>
> Yup. Various RCS things checked. If those are the defaults they seem
> reasonable.
>
>> The other characteristics were discussed by Carlos.
>
> The text fill-in box says Text, but there are options for sending a
> video and something else. Not likely to do that until I get to a free
> wifi site :-)
If it says "Text", that is not RCS. Video will then be sent as MMS.
> On 8/11/23 10:34 PM, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>> Am 11.08.23 um 19:29 schrieb The Real Bev:
>>> OK, I had to look up the difference between SMS, MMS and RCS. Is
>>> this controllable by the user? Must the two participants be using
>>> the same system? Are they all different apps? How do I know what
>>> I'm using?
>>
>> You can easily control it. Open your Messenger app. Tap on your picture
>> in the upper right corner to open the settings. Open Messages Settings.
>>
>> At the top you will see RCS-Chats. Tap on it. Then you will see the
>> whole set of options.
>>
>> Here checked on a Pixel 7 with the orginal stock Android 13.
>
> Yup. Various RCS things checked. If those are the defaults they seem
> reasonable.
>
>> The other characteristics were discussed by Carlos.
>
> The text fill-in box says Text, but there are options for sending a
> video and something else. Not likely to do that until I get to a free
> wifi site :-)
Turn RCS chats on or off
On your device, open Messages .
At the top right, tap your profile picture or icon. Messages settings.
Tap RCS chats.
Turn RCS chats on or off.
<https://support.google.com/messages/answer/7189714?hl=en>
>
> Thank you, gentlemen.
Welcome :-)
--
Cheers, Carlos.
The Real Bev
Aug 13, 2023, 12:11:46 AM8/13/23
to
On 8/12/23 3:44 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2023-08-12 22:04, The Real Bev wrote:
>> On 8/11/23 10:34 PM, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 11.08.23 um 19:29 schrieb The Real Bev:
>>>> OK, I had to look up the difference between SMS, MMS and RCS. Is
>>>> this controllable by the user? Must the two participants be using
>>>> the same system? Are they all different apps? How do I know what
>>>> I'm using?
>>>
>>> You can easily control it. Open your Messenger app. Tap on your picture
>>> in the upper right corner to open the settings. Open Messages Settings.
>>>
>>> At the top you will see RCS-Chats. Tap on it. Then you will see the
>>> whole set of options.
>>>
>>> Here checked on a Pixel 7 with the orginal stock Android 13.
>>
>> Yup. Various RCS things checked. If those are the defaults they seem
>> reasonable.
>>
>>> The other characteristics were discussed by Carlos.
>>
>> The text fill-in box says Text, but there are options for sending a
>> video and something else. Not likely to do that until I get to a free
>> wifi site :-)
>
> If it says "Text", that is not RCS. Video will then be sent as MMS.
>
> Turn RCS chats on or off
I set it ON. No reason not to. No way video is moving any way but free
> On 2023-08-12 22:04, The Real Bev wrote:
>> On 8/11/23 10:34 PM, Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>> Am 11.08.23 um 19:29 schrieb The Real Bev:
>>>> OK, I had to look up the difference between SMS, MMS and RCS. Is
>>>> this controllable by the user? Must the two participants be using
>>>> the same system? Are they all different apps? How do I know what
>>>> I'm using?
>>>
>>> You can easily control it. Open your Messenger app. Tap on your picture
>>> in the upper right corner to open the settings. Open Messages Settings.
>>>
>>> At the top you will see RCS-Chats. Tap on it. Then you will see the
>>> whole set of options.
>>>
>>> Here checked on a Pixel 7 with the orginal stock Android 13.
>>
>> Yup. Various RCS things checked. If those are the defaults they seem
>> reasonable.
>>
>>> The other characteristics were discussed by Carlos.
>>
>> The text fill-in box says Text, but there are options for sending a
>> video and something else. Not likely to do that until I get to a free
>> wifi site :-)
>
> If it says "Text", that is not RCS. Video will then be sent as MMS.
>
> Turn RCS chats on or off
no matter what. Same with photos.
> On your device, open Messages .
> At the top right, tap your profile picture or icon. Messages settings.
> Tap RCS chats.
> Turn RCS chats on or off.
>
> <https://support.google.com/messages/answer/7189714?hl=en>
>>
>> Thank you, gentlemen.
>
> Welcome :-)
--
"If you see me running, try to keep up."
...Back of bomb technician's shirt
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 13, 2023, 1:00:08 AM8/13/23
to
Am 12.08.23 um 22:04 schrieb The Real Bev:
:-)
--
Alea iacta est
--
Alea iacta est
Dave Royal
Aug 13, 2023, 3:43:34 AM8/13/23
to
On 13 Aug 2023 00:44:53 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
><https://support.google.com/messages/answer/7189714?hl=en>
>
I hadn't realised until reading that link that RCS provides a 'group chat'
facility, like WhatsApp. But only if _everybody_ in the group has an
RCS-capable phone (i.e. a recent Android) AND has RCS turned on. I can
understand why Google are so keen to get Apple to implement it! If you
start a group chat, and somebody buys an iPhone, the whole group loses
features - or they have to leave the group.
WhatsApp OTOH can chat to both iOS and Android users.
And as I said much earlier, 'messaging' and 'chatting' are different
things to me.
>
><https://support.google.com/messages/answer/7189714?hl=en>
>
I hadn't realised until reading that link that RCS provides a 'group chat'
facility, like WhatsApp. But only if _everybody_ in the group has an
RCS-capable phone (i.e. a recent Android) AND has RCS turned on. I can
understand why Google are so keen to get Apple to implement it! If you
start a group chat, and somebody buys an iPhone, the whole group loses
features - or they have to leave the group.
WhatsApp OTOH can chat to both iOS and Android users.
And as I said much earlier, 'messaging' and 'chatting' are different
things to me.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 13, 2023, 4:16:54 AM8/13/23
to
Am 13.08.23 um 09:43 schrieb Dave Royal:
Before that Apple will let Android-users into its iMsg-system with the
blue bubbles.
RCS is redundant.
--
Alea iacta est
> I can
> understand why Google are so keen to get Apple to implement it!
Apple will not do that in its weakest hour.
> understand why Google are so keen to get Apple to implement it!
Before that Apple will let Android-users into its iMsg-system with the
blue bubbles.
RCS is redundant.
--
Alea iacta est
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 13, 2023, 4:19:47 AM8/13/23
to
Am 13.08.23 um 09:43 schrieb Dave Royal:
> On 13 Aug 2023 00:44:53 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>> <https://support.google.com/messages/answer/7189714?hl=en>
>>
> I hadn't realised until reading that link that RCS provides a 'group chat'
> facility, like WhatsApp. But only if _everybody_ in the group has an
> RCS-capable phone (i.e. a recent Android) AND has RCS turned on. I can
> understand why Google are so keen to get Apple to implement it! If you
> start a group chat, and somebody buys an iPhone, the whole group loses
> features - or they have to leave the group.
>
> WhatsApp OTOH can chat to both iOS and Android users.
All messengers can. Signal, Telegram, Threema and others.
>>
>> <https://support.google.com/messages/answer/7189714?hl=en>
>>
> I hadn't realised until reading that link that RCS provides a 'group chat'
> facility, like WhatsApp. But only if _everybody_ in the group has an
> RCS-capable phone (i.e. a recent Android) AND has RCS turned on. I can
> understand why Google are so keen to get Apple to implement it! If you
> start a group chat, and somebody buys an iPhone, the whole group loses
> features - or they have to leave the group.
>
> WhatsApp OTOH can chat to both iOS and Android users.
> And as I said much earlier, 'messaging' and 'chatting' are different
> things to me.
--
Alea iacta est
Frank Slootweg
Aug 13, 2023, 5:59:04 AM8/13/23
to
my earlier responses to your fairy tale.
Carlos E.R.
Aug 13, 2023, 6:49:29 AM8/13/23
to
On 2023-08-13 09:43, Dave Royal wrote:
> On 13 Aug 2023 00:44:53 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>> <https://support.google.com/messages/answer/7189714?hl=en>
>>
> I hadn't realised until reading that link that RCS provides a 'group chat'
> facility, like WhatsApp. But only if _everybody_ in the group has an
> RCS-capable phone (i.e. a recent Android) AND has RCS turned on. I can
> understand why Google are so keen to get Apple to implement it! If you
> start a group chat, and somebody buys an iPhone, the whole group loses
> features - or they have to leave the group.
Notice that Google is releasing about now updates that make "RCS ON" the
> On 13 Aug 2023 00:44:53 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>> <https://support.google.com/messages/answer/7189714?hl=en>
>>
> I hadn't realised until reading that link that RCS provides a 'group chat'
> facility, like WhatsApp. But only if _everybody_ in the group has an
> RCS-capable phone (i.e. a recent Android) AND has RCS turned on. I can
> understand why Google are so keen to get Apple to implement it! If you
> start a group chat, and somebody buys an iPhone, the whole group loses
> features - or they have to leave the group.
default setting. Till now it was optional.
>
> WhatsApp OTOH can chat to both iOS and Android users.
installing or configuring anything. Whatsap has to be installed and
configured (and yes, I know people that are unable to do that).
>
> And as I said much earlier, 'messaging' and 'chatting' are different
> things to me.
>
--
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 13, 2023, 7:56:05 AM8/13/23
to
Am 13.08.23 um 11:59 schrieb Frank Slootweg:
You are acting like a little child.
--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)
--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 13, 2023, 7:57:22 AM8/13/23
to
Am 13.08.23 um 11:59 schrieb Frank Slootweg:
US-Dollar Strafe bezahlen, weil Angestellte für geschäftliche
Kommunikation Messenger wie iMessage, WhatsApp und Signal benutzt haben.
Das teilten die US-Kapitalmarktbehörden SEC (Securities Exchange
Commission) und CFTC (Commodity Futures Trading Commission) mit. Die
größte Strafe zahlt dabei diesmal die US-Bank Wells Fargo mit 200
Millionen US-Dollar. Jeweils 110 Millionen US-Dollar entfallen auf die
französischen Großbanken BNP Paribas und Société Générale. Insgesamt
wurde die Finanzindustrie damit zu Strafzahlungen in Höhe von mehr als
2,5 Milliarden US-Dollar verdonnert, weil die Praktiken gegen Vorgaben
zur Aufbewahrung von geschäftlicher Kommunikation verstoßen haben.
Dave Royal
Aug 13, 2023, 8:04:08 AM8/13/23
to
On 13 Aug 2023 12:44:48 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>On 2023-08-13 09:43, Dave Royal wrote:
>> On 13 Aug 2023 00:44:53 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>
>>> <https://support.google.com/messages/answer/7189714?hl=en>
>>>
>> I hadn't realised until reading that link that RCS provides a 'group chat'
>> facility, like WhatsApp. But only if _everybody_ in the group has an
>> RCS-capable phone (i.e. a recent Android) AND has RCS turned on. I can
>> understand why Google are so keen to get Apple to implement it! If you
>> start a group chat, and somebody buys an iPhone, the whole group loses
>> features - or they have to leave the group.
>
>Notice that Google is releasing about now updates that make "RCS ON" the
>default setting. Till now it was optional.
>
>>
>> WhatsApp OTOH can chat to both iOS and Android users.
>
>True, but every Android phone sold has RCS since day zero, without
>installing or configuring anything. Whatsap has to be installed and
>configured (and yes, I know people that are unable to do that).
>
So do I. And for 1:1 messaging between Android users RCS will soon become
>On 2023-08-13 09:43, Dave Royal wrote:
>> On 13 Aug 2023 00:44:53 +0200 Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>
>>> <https://support.google.com/messages/answer/7189714?hl=en>
>>>
>> I hadn't realised until reading that link that RCS provides a 'group chat'
>> facility, like WhatsApp. But only if _everybody_ in the group has an
>> RCS-capable phone (i.e. a recent Android) AND has RCS turned on. I can
>> understand why Google are so keen to get Apple to implement it! If you
>> start a group chat, and somebody buys an iPhone, the whole group loses
>> features - or they have to leave the group.
>
>Notice that Google is releasing about now updates that make "RCS ON" the
>default setting. Till now it was optional.
>
>>
>> WhatsApp OTOH can chat to both iOS and Android users.
>
>True, but every Android phone sold has RCS since day zero, without
>installing or configuring anything. Whatsap has to be installed and
>configured (and yes, I know people that are unable to do that).
>
normal. And most ordinary adults still won't know or care what sort of
phone their friends have or what message transport method it uses.
But for group chats? I know old people who are members of WA gardening
groups, walking groups, or a local-area group. Is anybody going to use RCS
for that if Apple doesn't support it? They'll get a relative to install WA
(or whatever).
It may depend on the country, In the UK the Android/iOS ration is about
50/50. In Spain it's 75/25.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 13, 2023, 8:15:01 AM8/13/23
to
Am 13.08.23 um 14:04 schrieb Dave Royal:
Your scenario can at best become reality if Apple adopts RCS.
> So do I. And for 1:1 messaging between Android users RCS will soon become
> normal. And most ordinary adults still won't know or care what sort of
> phone their friends have or what message transport method it uses.
This race is long over and your comment probably wishful thinking.
> normal. And most ordinary adults still won't know or care what sort of
> phone their friends have or what message transport method it uses.
Your scenario can at best become reality if Apple adopts RCS.
Frank Slootweg
Aug 13, 2023, 12:40:32 PM8/13/23
to
Exactly *which* part of the last part of the last sentence didn't you
understand!?
I'll repeat it for you and will highlight (uppercase) the relevant
parts:
> weil die Praktiken gegen Vorgaben
In English, courtesy Google Translate:
> for practices that VIOLATED
> RETENTION requirements for business communications.
(the next section talks in more detail about the Aufbewahrung/retention
violations).
So the fines are *not* about the *use* of WhatsApp/iMessage/Signal/
etc., but about not *archiving* the communication in a compliant manner.
Bottom line: Your continued dishonest misrepresentation amounts to
either ignorance/cluelessness/stupidity or lying. Take your pick.
For the rest of the audience, the full text from Google Translate:
"USA: Banks pay a fine of 550 million US dollars for using WhatsApp &
Co.
US regulators are taking action against bank employees writing business
messages on messengers. Another $550 million fine followed.
08/09/2023 09:36 am
From Martin Holland
In the US, other banks and financial firms have to pay a total of 555
million US dollars in fines because employees used messengers such as
iMessage, WhatsApp and Signal for business communication. This was
announced by the US capital market authorities SEC (Securities Exchange
Commission) and CFTC (Commodity Futures Trading Commission). The US
bank Wells Fargo pays the largest fine this time with 200 million US
dollars. The major French banks BNP Paribas and Société Générale each
account for 110 million US dollars. Overall, the financial industry has
been fined more than $2.5 billion for practices that violated retention
requirements for business communications.
Even supervisors careless
The actions of the US financial market regulator are by no means over
with the new penalties, reports Bloomberg . A large number of companies
have already announced that they are also investigating. In the
meantime, the stock exchange supervisory authority assumes that many
companies have not yet reported. The SEC is now advising them :
"Self-disclosure, cooperation and remedy". Doing this will get better
results than waiting for the SEC to come forward. The CFTC
criticizednor that each investigation found new examples of how
employees were not prevented from using unauthorized messengers. In
some cases, this also applies to those responsible for internal
compliance with the requirements.
The retention of internal and external communications is of the utmost
importance because it can form the basis for subsequent official
investigations. From the point of view of the US authorities, not
providing these documents is like covering up one's own misconduct. In
addition, in the case of court cases, US civil procedure laws allow the
parties to the case to inspect one another's internal records,
including records of communications. As a result, US officials are
upset when financial institutions allow employees to opt out of
automatic storage. According to the Financial Times, at least one US
bank, Morgan Stanley, has passed some of the penalties on to its
employees. Some would have had to pay more than a million US dollars.
( mho )"
Chris
Aug 14, 2023, 2:30:49 AM8/14/23
to
countries which don't have legal compliance requirements it'll be rife.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 14, 2023, 5:46:43 AM8/14/23
to
Am 14.08.23 um 08:30 schrieb Chris:
Sounds like developing countries: GDPR is valid for all businesses and
public authorities within Europe. Unauthorized exposure is forbidden and
that is exactly what WA and most other messengers do.
--
Alea iacta est
public authorities within Europe. Unauthorized exposure is forbidden and
that is exactly what WA and most other messengers do.
--
Alea iacta est
Carlos E.R.
Aug 14, 2023, 8:10:04 AM8/14/23
to
probably runs on a computer and perhaps can do the archiving.
A different matter is when a bank employee talks with a client using
WhatsApp on the company mobile phone. Actually, using email is worse,
because it is not encrypted at all (I have used both methods). Similar
to when talking via phone, that conversation is not recorded. That
happens on other phones, probably dedicated.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
Andy Burns
Aug 14, 2023, 8:44:36 AM8/14/23
to
Carlos E.R. wrote:
> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> nospam: Nobody needs RCS.
>
> False. I do.
I wouldn't say I need RCS, but I do use it in preference to SMS.
> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>
>> nospam: Nobody needs RCS.
>
> False. I do.
I wouldn't say I need RCS, but I do use it in preference to SMS.
Chris
Aug 14, 2023, 12:00:39 PM8/14/23
to
choose to share via WA /may/ be. Here's a clear example:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-66364283
The use of whatsapp isn't the problem, but the fact it was used to share
patient information plus the fact that a non-clinical person was added to
the group.
sms
Aug 14, 2023, 12:56:47 PM8/14/23
to
On 8/11/2023 12:57 PM, Dave Royal wrote:
<snip>
> SMS (and MMS) does not need an internet connection - that's the most
> important difference. RCS (iMessage, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram etc) all
> need an internet connection.
MMS requires a data connection, either mobile data or Wi-Fi.
--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards
<snip>
> SMS (and MMS) does not need an internet connection - that's the most
> important difference. RCS (iMessage, WhatsApp, Signal, Telegram etc) all
> need an internet connection.
MMS requires a data connection, either mobile data or Wi-Fi.
--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards
Frank Slootweg
Aug 14, 2023, 1:20:48 PM8/14/23
to
Jörg is again spreading FUD, because for some strange reason he feels
the need to bash WhatsApp with all kinds of invalid arguments. (That in
this case iMessage, Signal, etc. are collateral damage is kind of
amusing.)
He says "... that is exactly what WA and most other messengers do.",
but of course *they* - the messenger apps - do *not* *do* that, but
*people using them* *can* cause "Unauthorized exposure" (meaningless
term of the week).
We might as well ban all communication methods, because with all of
them, people can cause "Unauthorized exposure".
sms
Aug 14, 2023, 4:28:16 PM8/14/23
to
On 8/14/2023 10:20 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
<anip>
> Jörg is again spreading FUD, because for some strange reason he feels
> the need to bash WhatsApp with all kinds of invalid arguments. (That in
> this case iMessage, Signal, etc. are collateral damage is kind of
> amusing.)
"KLM Royal Dutch Airlines is a good example of how to successfully use
WhatsApp business API to make booking simple and effortless for
customers. The airline not only sends all booking details on the
customer’s WhatsApp number but also sends e-boarding passes to add great
value to customers."
So much for the theory that businesses don't use WhatsApp!
Other airlines, though no U.S. airlines, also are using WhatsApp.
<anip>
> Jörg is again spreading FUD, because for some strange reason he feels
> the need to bash WhatsApp with all kinds of invalid arguments. (That in
> this case iMessage, Signal, etc. are collateral damage is kind of
> amusing.)
WhatsApp business API to make booking simple and effortless for
customers. The airline not only sends all booking details on the
customer’s WhatsApp number but also sends e-boarding passes to add great
value to customers."
So much for the theory that businesses don't use WhatsApp!
Other airlines, though no U.S. airlines, also are using WhatsApp.
sms
Aug 14, 2023, 7:27:44 PM8/14/23
to
On 7/24/2023 1:21 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
<snip>
> Typically the best thing is to have a phone with dual SIMs, and buy a
> prepaid SIM on Europe for the duration.
The easiest thing is to buy an Orange Holiday eSIM, direct from Orange
Spain, that includes both EU data and an actual phone number (Spain
number) that works in the EU, i.e.
<https://travel.orange.com/en/offers/all-inclusive/>. You do not have to
first activate it in Spain.
It's a little more expensive than buying a physical SIM card when you
arrive, but really, when you factor in the convenience of not searching
around for a store, where you could get ripped off, it's worth spending
the extra money, and it's only maybe $20 more than buying a SIM when you
arrive.
<snip>
> Typically the best thing is to have a phone with dual SIMs, and buy a
> prepaid SIM on Europe for the duration.
The easiest thing is to buy an Orange Holiday eSIM, direct from Orange
Spain, that includes both EU data and an actual phone number (Spain
number) that works in the EU, i.e.
<https://travel.orange.com/en/offers/all-inclusive/>. You do not have to
first activate it in Spain.
It's a little more expensive than buying a physical SIM card when you
arrive, but really, when you factor in the convenience of not searching
around for a store, where you could get ripped off, it's worth spending
the extra money, and it's only maybe $20 more than buying a SIM when you
arrive.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 15, 2023, 2:32:32 AM8/15/23
to
Am 14.08.23 um 18:00 schrieb Chris:
--
Alea iacta est
> The use of, say WA, is not in and of itself contrary to GDPR.
De facto it is. Unusable if contacts/adresses are not uploaded to Facebook.
--
Alea iacta est
Chris
Aug 15, 2023, 2:48:46 AM8/15/23
to
Jörg Lorenz <hugy...@gmx.ch> wrote:
> Am 14.08.23 um 18:00 schrieb Chris:
>> The use of, say WA, is not in and of itself contrary to GDPR.
>
> De facto it is.
Nope. Not even in latin.
> Am 14.08.23 um 18:00 schrieb Chris:
>> The use of, say WA, is not in and of itself contrary to GDPR.
>
> De facto it is.
> Unusable if contacts/adresses are not uploaded to Facebook.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 15, 2023, 3:37:31 AM8/15/23
to
Am 15.08.23 um 08:48 schrieb Chris:
You really do not understand the dimension of the issue: *That is the
biggest single issue*. And the reason why companies and autorities
forbid the use of WA.
--
Alea iacta est
biggest single issue*. And the reason why companies and autorities
forbid the use of WA.
--
Alea iacta est
Andy Burns
Aug 15, 2023, 7:16:26 AM8/15/23
to
Dave Royal wrote:
> I hadn't realised until reading that link that RCS provides a 'group
> chat' facility, like WhatsApp. But only if everybody in the group has an
> I hadn't realised until reading that link that RCS provides a 'group
> RCS-capable phone (i.e. a recent Android) AND has RCS turned on.
Google say they have now turned RCS on for all phones except those where
the user has previously turned it off
<https://www.androidpolice.com/google-messages-rcs-enabled-by-default-b/>
I did resist a few time when they began "suggesting" turning it on.
Andy Burns
Aug 15, 2023, 7:21:06 AM8/15/23
to
Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Your scenario can at best become reality if Apple adopts RCS.
Or everyone adopts MLS ...
> Your scenario can at best become reality if Apple adopts RCS.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 15, 2023, 7:29:47 AM8/15/23
to
encrypting messages in arbitrarily sized groups. It is maintained by the
MLS working group of the Internet Engineering Task Force to provide an
efficient and practical security mechanism.
Wikipedia
Has AFAIK nothing to do with the decision which messenger or protocol is
used.
--
Sent with Bettterbird from an Intel-Mac. Simply better.
www.betterbird.eu
Andy Burns
Aug 15, 2023, 7:45:00 AM8/15/23
to
Jörg Lorenz wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>
>>> Your scenario can at best become reality if Apple adopts RCS.
>>
>> Or everyone adopts MLS ...
>
> Messaging Layer Security (MLS) is a security layer for end-to-end
> encrypting messages in arbitrarily sized groups. It is maintained by the
> MLS working group of the Internet Engineering Task Force to provide an
> efficient and practical security mechanism.
>
> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Jörg Lorenz wrote:
>>
>>> Your scenario can at best become reality if Apple adopts RCS.
>>
>> Or everyone adopts MLS ...
>
> Messaging Layer Security (MLS) is a security layer for end-to-end
> encrypting messages in arbitrarily sized groups. It is maintained by the
> MLS working group of the Internet Engineering Task Force to provide an
> efficient and practical security mechanism.
>
> Has AFAIK nothing to do with the decision which messenger or protocol is
> used.
MLS will allow all the closed messengers to interoperate, and the EU is
> used.
going to put pressure on them ...
Imagine if people on Deutsche Telekom couldn't call people on SwissCom,
that's how stupid the current bunch of messengers are.
Andy Burns
Aug 15, 2023, 7:57:59 AM8/15/23
to
Dave Royal wrote:
> I've never (deliberately) sent an MMS, which have always been expensive.
I very rarely send MMS because (in the UK at least) they're horribly
expensive compared to SMS which are essentially free.
MMS does allow group chats unlike SMS where every recipient is handled
individually.
Now RCS allows group chats and images for free, except not to iPhone
users, within my circles that's only about 20% of people.
> I've never (deliberately) sent an MMS, which have always been expensive.
I very rarely send MMS because (in the UK at least) they're horribly
expensive compared to SMS which are essentially free.
MMS does allow group chats unlike SMS where every recipient is handled
individually.
Now RCS allows group chats and images for free, except not to iPhone
users, within my circles that's only about 20% of people.
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 15, 2023, 8:02:16 AM8/15/23
to
Am 15.08.23 um 13:44 schrieb Andy Burns:
Sorry but this is wrong. And that is the point where the EU will not
intervene with a very high degree of probability. There are so many
channels for mobile communication.
--
Alea iacta est
intervene with a very high degree of probability. There are so many
channels for mobile communication.
--
Alea iacta est
Jörg Lorenz
Aug 15, 2023, 8:06:08 AM8/15/23
to
Am 15.08.23 um 13:16 schrieb Andy Burns:
I have RCS for many years active on my Pixels: No match for the real
messengers. I never used RCS because it is RCS. Even when comunicating
with iPhones I use certainly something else (Threema, Telegram, Signal
or E-Mail).
--
Alea iacta est
messengers. I never used RCS because it is RCS. Even when comunicating
with iPhones I use certainly something else (Threema, Telegram, Signal
or E-Mail).
--
Alea iacta est
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