Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android

[micky]

Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android

I gather that most functions of airtags only work with iphones or ipads.
So, get them anyhow if you're concerned someone will steal your car or
your luggage or your shipments. Even if you only have an android phone.
Borrow a phone or ipad to set them up, record on paper what you have to
record, and IF anything is ever lost or stolen, run out and buy an
iphone. How long does that take? It will probably never happen anyhow.
But if it does, you're prepared.

[Frank Slootweg]

Running to buy an iPhone if they're lost or stolen won't work, because
you need the AppleID and credentials to find out where they are and the
user of the borrowed iPhone/iPad of course won't give *that* to you.

What I did is ask a close relative to set them up and if there's ever
a problem, I just set her a message asking to locate our AirTags (we
have two).

I actually tested that when we were in Australia (she was in NL) and
she sent us a screenshot showing the location and that was indeed
exactly where they were. Of course the that is to be expected, but at
that particular location, I didn't expect (m)any iPhones to be present
to do the tracking, but it worked anyway.

BTW, there is a 'Tracker Detect' app for Android to detect close-by
AirTags. It's *not* for remote tracking, but for close-by detection, for
example to check if some culprit hasn't put *their* AirTag somewhere
close-by, to track you, or (try to) steal your belongings, or ...

'Tracker Detect' (by Apple)
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.apple.trackerdetect>

[VanguardLH]

It's not just iPhones that are required to setup (as Frank noted), it's
also iPhones that must be close to the Airtag to pick up the BT signal,
and those iPhones need to be running the Find My app. The BT signal is
obviously too weak to transmit far enough for any Apple server to
receive, so nearby iPhones running the app must be present to pickup the
signal. You find your Airtag using other people's iPhones.

Tile Pro (https://www.tile.com/en-us) has a BT range of 400 feet, and
works with apps for both Android and iOS. Obviously only Airtag or Tile
users are going to have the app installed or active on their phones.
Not everyone walking by your locator will have the app installed, or
their phone powered on whether they have the app or not.

Considering the mobile market share of Android versus iOS, I'd opt for
the Tile locator.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/272698/global-market-share-held-by-mobile-operating-systems-since-2009/

Just remember it will be a tiny share of the mobile phone market that
has the matching app installed.

Finding your phone doesn't require a locator tag. It's other stuff you
want to find where a locator tag is needed.

[Chris]

micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
> Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android
>
> I gather that most functions of airtags only work with iphones or ipads.
> So, get them anyhow if you're concerned someone will steal your car or
> your luggage or your shipments. Even if you only have an android phone.
> Borrow a phone or ipad to set them up, record on paper what you have to
> record,

There's nothing to record, however, the Tags do need to be registered
against your AppleID. For that to happen you need the borrowed ipad/iphone
to be logged into your account. The owner of the device may not be happy to
let you do that.

> and IF anything is ever lost or stolen, run out and buy an
> iphone. How long does that take? It will probably never happen anyhow.
> But if it does, you're prepared.

No need to buy an iphone. Just log into icloud.com.

[Carlos E. R.]

I bought a "Tile Pro (2022)", designed for Android, this summer.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tile-Bluetooth-finding-Android-Compatible/dp/B09B2WLRWX/

It works, but I wanted another gadget that still had not released when I
needed it, that follows the new api published by Android, which I think
is more or less compatible with the iphone one. Sorry, I don't remember
the name, it is in another computer 500 Km from me currently.

I can say that my luggage was not detected in the Montreal airport.
Maybe iphones don't detect the Tile. In Spain yes, it was detected.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Chris]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
> micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
>
>> Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android
>>
>> I gather that most functions of airtags only work with iphones or ipads.
>> So, get them anyhow if you're concerned someone will steal your car or
>> your luggage or your shipments. Even if you only have an android phone.
>> Borrow a phone or ipad to set them up, record on paper what you have to
>> record, and IF anything is ever lost or stolen, run out and buy an
>> iphone. How long does that take? It will probably never happen anyhow.
>> But if it does, you're prepared.
>
> It's not just iPhones that are required to setup (as Frank noted), it's
> also iPhones that must be close to the Airtag to pick up the BT signal,
> and those iPhones need to be running the Find My app.

Which is all of them.

> The BT signal is
> obviously too weak to transmit far enough for any Apple server to
> receive, so nearby iPhones running the app must be present to pickup the
> signal. You find your Airtag using other people's iPhones.

And ipads, macs, ipods, airpods and apple watches.

> Tile Pro (https://www.tile.com/en-us) has a BT range of 400 feet, and
> works with apps for both Android and iOS. Obviously only Airtag or Tile
> users are going to have the app installed or active on their phones.
> Not everyone walking by your locator will have the app installed, or
> their phone powered on whether they have the app or not.
>
> Considering the mobile market share of Android versus iOS, I'd opt for
> the Tile locator.

Except only a tiny fraction of mobile users will have the Tile app. Whereas
pretty much every single apple device has FindMy. That's well over a
billion devices. AirTags are far more likely to be pinged than a Tile.

> https://www.statista.com/statistics/272698/global-market-share-held-by-mobile-operating-systems-since-2009/
>
> Just remember it will be a tiny share of the mobile phone market that
> has the matching app installed.

For the Tile only.

[Frank Slootweg]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]

> It's not just iPhones that are required to setup (as Frank noted), it's
> also iPhones that must be close to the Airtag to pick up the BT signal,
> and those iPhones need to be running the Find My app.

As far as I know, this is not correct. They don't need to have any
'Find My' *app* running, but they need to have enabled the
*functionality* to do the detection. And according to our Apple friends,
most if not all Apple devices have that turned on. (This would have been
a case were crossposting to misc.phone.mobile.iphone, *would* have been
appropriate! :-()

> The BT signal is
> obviously too weak to transmit far enough for any Apple server to
> receive, so nearby iPhones running the app must be present to pickup the
> signal. You find your Airtag using other people's iPhones.
>
> Tile Pro (https://www.tile.com/en-us) has a BT range of 400 feet, and
> works with apps for both Android and iOS. Obviously only Airtag or Tile
> users are going to have the app installed or active on their phones.
> Not everyone walking by your locator will have the app installed, or
> their phone powered on whether they have the app or not.
>
> Considering the mobile market share of Android versus iOS, I'd opt for
> the Tile locator.

Before I bought our AirTags, I investigated both AirTags and Tiles and
came to the opposite conclusion: Yes, there are more Androids than
iPhones, but what counts is the combination of Android *and* an
installed/working Tile app. Because Find My is a kind of default for
iPhone users, the number of relevant iPhones probably largely outweighs
the number of relevant Android phones.

This was confirmed by information on 'unbiased' (i.e. Apple *and*
Android) webshops and my reported field test and implied by your
comment:

[VanguardLH]

Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
>> micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android
>>>
>>> I gather that most functions of airtags only work with iphones or ipads.
>>> So, get them anyhow if you're concerned someone will steal your car or
>>> your luggage or your shipments. Even if you only have an android phone.
>>> Borrow a phone or ipad to set them up, record on paper what you have to
>>> record, and IF anything is ever lost or stolen, run out and buy an
>>> iphone. How long does that take? It will probably never happen anyhow.
>>> But if it does, you're prepared.
>>
>> It's not just iPhones that are required to setup (as Frank noted), it's
>> also iPhones that must be close to the Airtag to pick up the BT signal,
>> and those iPhones need to be running the Find My app.
>
> Which is all of them.

Ah, I didn't know the Find My app would be running all the time while
draining the battery.

"Find My Service is ALWAYS running, as long as the phone is powered on,
and even for 24 hours after the phone is powered off."
(From a forum post.)

If true, powering off your iPhone won't stop all battery drain. The
only way to stop the service is to logout of the app which also disables
the activation lock on the phone. GPS must also be kept running, so the
phone finding the locator tag can report its position. There's the
drain to keep the BT and GPS radios active along with running the app.
Well, the same is true of using Android devices: run the app, GPS and BT
active. So, do you want to drain your battery helping other users find
their stuff?

Find My can be turned off in settings, so I may not be running on all
those claimed billions (*) of Apple devices.

(*) With a market share of 27%, and a worldwide population of 8 billion
(neglecting distribution is not equal across all nations), there could
only 2 billion Apple devices, but that's around the world, and not where
is your device. From what I've read, the estimate is there are 1.46
billion active iPhones. I suspect you are correct in that there will be
fewer Androids running the Tile app around wherever is your locator tag.
The point is detection is not as ubiquitous as the marketers want you to
believe. Seems these locators are more oriented for use in large
metropolis than out in the burbs or boonies. Can't see anyone detecting
your device you lost while riding a tractor out in the middle of a corn
field.

>> The BT signal is
>> obviously too weak to transmit far enough for any Apple server to
>> receive, so nearby iPhones running the app must be present to pickup the
>> signal. You find your Airtag using other people's iPhones.
>
> And ipads, macs, ipods, airpods and apple watches.

\ \ \ \ \__ very small market
\ \ \ \__ Airpods Pro 2nd gen
\ \ \__ discontinued 2014
\ \__ only for laptops, desktops are fixed
\__ sales dipped to half in 2018, but came back up

> Except only a tiny fraction of mobile users will have the Tile app.
> Whereas pretty much every single apple device has FindMy. That's well
> over a billion devices. AirTags are far more likely to be pinged than
> a Tile.

Could be, but we're still talking about the density of mobile device
users that happen to be within 100-400 feet of wherever is your lost
item. In a metropolis, or high density locations (e.g., airport), the
chances are much better. In the burbs, or farther out, forget it.

[Frank Slootweg]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]

> Seems these locators are more oriented for use in large
> metropolis than out in the burbs or boonies.

Well, my (successful) field test was in the *extreme* boonies, a
campground on the outskirts of a very small village in Australia, with
the vehicles widely spread out, But still some Apple device picked up
our AirTags, which were sitting in our backpacks *inside* our (small)
'motorhome' (4WD campervan/camper).

[...]

> Could be, but we're still talking about the density of mobile device
> users that happen to be within 100-400 feet of wherever is your lost
> item. In a metropolis, or high density locations (e.g., airport), the
> chances are much better. In the burbs, or farther out, forget it.

As long as there are people around, at least sometimes, there's a good
chance, even "In the burbs, or farther out". See above.

[VanguardLH]

I thought Tiles only worked in Android smartphones (Android 9+) with the
app/service running. But I keep seeing articles that make it look like
Tiles also work with iPhones. Hard to separate when they mention
platform compatibility as to whether that means the app, or the tag
device (locator). Tile mentions they have an app for both Android and
iOS, so their app runs on Apple phones. But will an Apple phone running
FindMy, and not running the Tile app, find a Tile tag? With Apple, I
would suspect they'd employ a proprietary protocol atop of Bluetooth.

https://www.tile.com/en-us/blog/tile-tags-compatible-with-android-and-ios-apple-devices

https://www.androidauthority.com/tile-vs-airtag-3193567/

While the article mentions Tile can be used on both Android and iOS,
that's might be just the app. Yet I keep seeing statements like "Tile
Pro is platform agnostic, ensuring full functionality no matter your
phone" (https://www.expressvpn.com/blog/best-airtag-alternatives/).
Both require Bluetooth 4.0+.

Seems the airtags are limited to one community: Apple users. While
Tiles are covered by both communities: Apple and Android. With Apple,
FindMy is always running (unless you disable the service) which drains
battery power due to app power, GPS radio power, and BT power, and for
24 hours after you thought you powered off the phone. With Android,
battery drain happens, too, when running the app.

Tile can have detection disabled to prevent thieves from knowing they
are being tracked. Tiles have also been used to track people without
their consent (plant a Tile on someone or their belongings).

https://www.tile.com/blog/tile-introduces-scan-and-secure-feature-unwanted-tracking-safety

But thieves could also use the Scan and Secure app to see if they are
being tracked. So, Tile came out with a feature to hide their tags from
Scan and Secure.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/tile-takes-aim-at-bluetooth-tracker-industrys-theft-and-stalking-measures-with-launch-of-anti-theft-mode-301748350.html

Does the Airtag have an option to disable notification on iPhones of
finding someone's airtag? Can the airtag prevent detecting it, so
thieves won't know they're being tracked?

[Carlos E. R.]

I don't notice any battery draining. System says the Tile app has used
1% of the battery in the last 14 hours. Compared to 14% by Android Auto,
it is nothing.


...

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

You need to use a tag gadget that uses the new Android api, which is not
the Tile as of this summer. This api runs fulltime on Android and is
compatible with Apple. Google and Apple reached some kind of agreement
for interworking.


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[sms]

On 10/18/2023 10:39 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

<anip>

> I can say that my luggage was not detected in the Montreal airport.
> Maybe iphones don't detect the Tile. In Spain yes, it was detected.

iPhones will detect Tile tags if the iPhone user has installed the Tile app.

The advantage of the Apple Airtags, at least in the U.S., is that
iPhones are pervasive so the chance of someone with an iPhone (where no
app is required) passing within receiving distance of a transmitting
Airtag is much greater than the chance of someone that has installed the
Tile app, whether on an iPhone or an Android device, passing close
enough to a Tile tag. What's needed is a "Google Tag" with the
capability being part of stock Android, not an app that needs to be
installed.

Apple would never enable full-functionality of Airtags for Android, even
though it would help them sell more Airtags, for the same reason that
they will not allow iMessage on Android.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-10-19 01:22, sms wrote:
> On 10/18/2023 10:39 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> <anip>
>
>> I can say that my luggage was not detected in the Montreal airport.
>> Maybe iphones don't detect the Tile. In Spain yes, it was detected.
>
> iPhones will detect Tile tags if the iPhone user has installed the Tile
> app.
>
> The advantage of the Apple Airtags, at least in the U.S., is that
> iPhones are pervasive so the chance of someone with an iPhone (where no
> app is required) passing within receiving distance of a transmitting
> Airtag is much greater than the chance of someone that has installed the
> Tile app, whether on an iPhone or an Android device, passing close
> enough to a Tile tag. What's needed is a "Google Tag" with the
> capability being part of stock Android, not an app that needs to be
> installed.

There are Google Tags, and they have an agreement with Apple, so that
Apple devices will detect them, and Google phones will detect Apple tags
(without any app on both phones worlds). That is done, but at the time I
needed one this summer they were still not sold to the public.

<https://www.tile.com/blog/does-airtag-work-with-android>

<https://www.androidauthority.com/apple-airtags-alternatives-1222793/>

<https://www.lavanguardia.com/andro4all/compras/apple-airtag-alternativa-android>

and:

<https://www.independent.co.uk/extras/indybest/gadgets-tech/chipolo-tracker-google-find-airtag-b2336981.html>


I don't have a link to the agreement news recently.

> Apple would never enable full-functionality of Airtags for Android, even
> though it would help them sell more Airtags, for the same reason that
> they will not allow iMessage on Android.

But an agreement benefits them in areas where there are many more
Androids than iPhones. So, there is an agreement.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[sms]

On 10/18/2023 5:11 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

<snip>

> But an agreement benefits them in areas where there are many more
> Androids than iPhones. So, there is an agreement.

Thanks, this has not gotten much publicity.

<https://chipolo.net/en-us/products/chipolo-one-point>

But it's premature. “We are working in partnership with Apple to help
finalize the joint unwanted tracker alert specification by the end of
this year. At this time we’ve made the decision to hold the rollout of
the Find My Device network until Apple has implemented protections for
iOS.” Also, the devices are sold out.

But once they work everything out it does indeed look like a good system.

[VanguardLH]

Android 14 was released Oct 4, 203. I bet the new API won't be
available until Android 15+ or later, so sometime around Q3 2024. My
phone keeps limping along on Android 8.

With cooperation with Apple, and to differentiate old incompatible Tiles
with Tiles supporting the new API, might they be called iTiles?

[VanguardLH]

sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:

> On 10/18/2023 5:11 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> But an agreement benefits them in areas where there are many more
>> Androids than iPhones. So, there is an agreement.
>
> Thanks, this has not gotten much publicity.
>
> <https://chipolo.net/en-us/products/chipolo-one-point>
>
> But it's premature. “We are working in partnership with Apple to help
> finalize the joint unwanted tracker alert specification by the end of
> this year. At this time we’ve made the decision to hold the rollout of
> the Find My Device network until Apple has implemented protections for
> iOS.” Also, the devices are sold out.
>
> But once they work everything out it does indeed look like a good system.

Wonder how long before the politicians catch up to pass laws making it
illegal to use these trackers unless sanctioned by court order. Like
raising the crime from burglary to robbery, might stalkers be prosecuted
more harshly if they use a tracker? There are increasing reports on the
use of trackers related to spousal abuse.

Indiana
https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2023/bills/senate/161/details

Kentucky
https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/record/23rs/sb199.html

Pennsylvania, Ohio, New Jersey (proposals)
https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/airtag-legislation-pennsylvania-ohio-new-jersey/

Hmm, if a tracker can track a person, someone has to do the tracking.
So, if a person gets tracked then it seems you can detect who is doing
the tracking. Catch the stalker with his own tracker.

[candycanearter07]

On 10/18/23 14:28, VanguardLH wrote:
> But thieves could also use the Scan and Secure app to see if they are
> being tracked. So, Tile came out with a feature to hide their tags from
> Scan and Secure.

This feels like the start of a back and forth.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

[candycanearter07]

On 10/18/23 19:53, VanguardLH wrote:
> With cooperation with Apple, and to differentiate old incompatible Tiles
> with Tiles supporting the new API, might they be called iTiles?

That doesn't flow super well. Maybe like, Apple Tiles?

[Carlos E. R.]

I don't think so.

Same as they expanded the functionality for that covid app to all phones.

>
> With cooperation with Apple, and to differentiate old incompatible Tiles
> with Tiles supporting the new API, might they be called iTiles?

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-10-19 03:08, VanguardLH wrote:
> sms <scharf...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/18/2023 5:11 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> But an agreement benefits them in areas where there are many more
>>> Androids than iPhones. So, there is an agreement.
>>
>> Thanks, this has not gotten much publicity.
>>
>> <https://chipolo.net/en-us/products/chipolo-one-point>
>>
>> But it's premature. “We are working in partnership with Apple to help
>> finalize the joint unwanted tracker alert specification by the end of
>> this year. At this time we’ve made the decision to hold the rollout of
>> the Find My Device network until Apple has implemented protections for
>> iOS.” Also, the devices are sold out.
>>
>> But once they work everything out it does indeed look like a good system.
>
> Wonder how long before the politicians catch up to pass laws making it
> illegal to use these trackers unless sanctioned by court order. Like
> raising the crime from burglary to robbery, might stalkers be prosecuted
> more harshly if they use a tracker? There are increasing reports on the
> use of trackers related to spousal abuse.

It is already prohibited on planes luggage, on the ground of batteries
exploding, even though they use non rechargeable batteries. Fortunately,
they don't scan for them when doing the check in.

There is already a class of luggage that is "smart", because they come
with a tracker. They are listed as prohibited.

At least the company I last flew with had that in their web page.

>
> Indiana
> https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2023/bills/senate/161/details
>
> Kentucky
> https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/record/23rs/sb199.html
>
> Pennsylvania, Ohio, New Jersey (proposals)
> https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/airtag-legislation-pennsylvania-ohio-new-jersey/
>
> Hmm, if a tracker can track a person, someone has to do the tracking.
> So, if a person gets tracked then it seems you can detect who is doing
> the tracking. Catch the stalker with his own tracker.

There are many bad things they can do. Put a tracker on the kids in
order to find the hidden wife, that ran away from the beatings, for
instance.


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[micky]

In comp.mobile.android, on Wed, 18 Oct 2023 22:14:05 -0500,

candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:

>On 10/18/23 19:53, VanguardLH wrote:
>> With cooperation with Apple, and to differentiate old incompatible Tiles
>> with Tiles supporting the new API, might they be called iTiles?

Heavens, no. No device that starts witn i will ever be allowed in my
house.

>
>That doesn't flow super well. Maybe like, Apple Tiles?

I hadn't thought of that, but same problem.


I also didn't think to cross post to the iphone group, but I wouldn't
have because I don't want them knowing I'm jealous of the people with
money who buy iphones, especially since no one is going to steal my car
and I'm only taking one more big trip.

[Frank Slootweg]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]

> Ah, I didn't know the Find My app would be running all the time while
> draining the battery.
>
> "Find My Service is ALWAYS running, as long as the phone is powered on,
> and even for 24 hours after the phone is powered off."
> (From a forum post.)
>
> If true, powering off your iPhone won't stop all battery drain. The
> only way to stop the service is to logout of the app which also disables
> the activation lock on the phone. GPS must also be kept running, so the
> phone finding the locator tag can report its position. There's the
> drain to keep the BT and GPS radios active along with running the app.
> Well, the same is true of using Android devices: run the app, GPS and BT
> active. So, do you want to drain your battery helping other users find
> their stuff?

The "drain" by the service (not "the app") and Bluetooth can be very
little. Realize that the AirTag runs for at least a year on a CR2032
button cell. The phone (et al) doesn't need to use more than that amount
of power for doing its bit of the detecting.

And what makes you think GPS must be on all the time?

GPS not needed for detecting an AirTag (or other Apple device). A
location service - not neccessarily GPS - might be needed to report the
location of the detected device.

See also Carlos' response on the (non-)"drain" of his battery for the
Tile 'app'.

Moral:

We know that you like to investigate all kinds of technical stuff,
often stuff which you do not have/use. That's fine. But it's not so fine
when you're doubting - and sometimes even disputing - people who *do*
have and use said stuff.

So if you present your theory, then *say* it's your theory. Don't
present your thinking as facts.

[...]

[Frank Slootweg]

Carlos E. R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

[...]

> It is already prohibited on planes luggage, on the ground of batteries
> exploding, even though they use non rechargeable batteries. Fortunately,
> they don't scan for them when doing the check in.
>
> There is already a class of luggage that is "smart", because they come
> with a tracker. They are listed as prohibited.
>
> At least the company I last flew with had that in their web page.

As you say, it's airline dependent, so check the rules for *your*
airline.

IIRC, there are no worldwide nor US (FAA) rules against using trackers
(with lithium button cells) in checked baggage, but an airline can have
their own restrictions.

I can't (easily) find my notes invetigating this issue, but we took
our AirTags in our checked suitcases on our Dec/Mar United Airlines
flights from NL (via US) to Australia.

[candycanearter07]

On 10/19/23 09:11, micky wrote:
> Heavens, no. No device that starts witn i will ever be allowed in my
> house.

Inhaler?

[AJL]

Carlos E. R. wrote:

> There are many bad things they can do.
> Put a tracker on the kids in order to find
> the hidden wife,

I can track mine using any browser on
any device, no tracker needed. Love
that iPhone.

I was surprised at the accuracy. I can
even find her in a large store like Target.

> that ran away from the beatings, for
> instance.

She is always beating me...at spending.

Bad joke, I know...couldn't resist...

This Amazon tablet has been updated
several times since I last tried posting
with my old Groundhog newsreader so
lets see if she still works...

[VanguardLH]

Consider where the OP posted about airtags. Um, what's the name of this
newsgroup again? This is NOT an Apple newsgroup. Duh! Not only did
micky post in the wrong newsgroup, but his claim of using a borrowed
iPhone to find an airtag won't work - and I'm using your claim for the
basis that his statement was incorrect.

You're walking around with your phone. Does the power to the BT radio
vary based on the device to which it is currently connected? You think
the BT radio will consume less power as you're walking along whether
connecting to BT devices, or not. I don't make that assumption. It has
to connect to both LE and non-LE devices. An RF meter would determine
which of us is correct. Because BT draws power is why some users turn
it off to extend battery up-time. Same for GPS.

How accurate are Apple's location services on a phone when GPS is
disabled? What sources for location does Apple use that Android does
not? Well, if they're walking around consuming power for the BT radio
when not even connected to any BT devices, why wouldn't they be wasting
power on keeping the GPS radio active? Why waste power on the GPS radio
if it weren't included in location services?

How accurate are Apple's location services without GPS? With GPS? If
adding GPS didn't improve accuracy, why would anyone be wasting power on
the GPS radio? Accuracy of GPS is 5 to 10 meters. Cell tower
triangulation has an average accuracy that varies from 500m to 1500m
(*). Telling someone that their airtag is somewhere in the suburb where
is an airport isn't helpful. With GPS, and if the phone locks on 4
satellites instead of 3, altitude is also included, so an airtag user
getting a report from a smartphone users whose GPS radio gets 4 sats can
tell if their bag is at the airport, or on a plane to some other city.

(*) https://www.safetrax.in/how-gps-cell-tower-and-wi-fi-triangulation-help-in-tracking-location

As for Carlos not saying he notices battery drain for the Tile app, I've
found forum articles stating the opposite. Problem is we don't have all
the information on configurations to know how each phone was setup.
That another app/service is running obviously means more power. Whether
it be a FindMy service in iPhones, or a Tile app running in Android,
more power gets consumed. Try loading 200 apps concurrently with none
backgrounded to see how responsive is your phone. One of the reasons
folks get app killers, task managers, or whatever you want to call them
that will kill idle or backgrounded apps or services is because the
phone gets slow with all the junk running. One of the troubleshooting
steps in diagnosing a slow phone is to eliminate all the unnecessary
services and background apps.

I wasn't talking about the airtags power consumption. Its 1-year
battery life seems impressive to me. I was talking about power
consumption on the phone to make possible the use of locator tags.
Phone users are unlikely to disable GPS, so their phones are consuming
power to the GPS radio whether there is a locator tag nearby, or not.
They'll also have the BT radio active all the time. Those still consume
power whether a locator tag was found, or not. However, a service
(process) running all the time will consume power than when that service
is disabled (and FindMy can be disabled). Having the FindMy service is
Apple's way to trying to ensure their tags will work or the phone can be
found rather than rely on a Tile app getting loaded in the background.

[VanguardLH]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

> VanguardLH wrote:
>
>> Wonder how long before the politicians catch up to pass laws making
>> it illegal to use these trackers unless sanctioned by court order.
>> Like raising the crime from burglary to robbery, might stalkers be
>> prosecuted more harshly if they use a tracker? There are increasing
>> reports on the use of trackers related to spousal abuse.
>
> It is already prohibited on planes luggage, on the ground of batteries
> exploding, even though they use non rechargeable batteries.
> Fortunately, they don't scan for them when doing the check in.

I have never seen a CR-2032 lithium battery explode. But then I would
think whatever is generating the high level of heat, like a fire, around
the battery would be of far more concern.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OnJ-jrkrAQ
(starts to expand about timemark 1:10)

They can pop if shorted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C7sXUg5N6M
(timemark 1:30)

Yet they allow phones in the airports and on the airlines which have
much larger lithium batteries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcoU2mXJJ3k

I've had batteries get pregnant (and, no, no kids as a result) and bulge
the phone case making the backplate pop off, but before that the
capacity of the battery was way down (only a couple hours of up-time on
a full charge). Luckily my phone has user serviceable batteries, so I
can replace them. In fact, once a year in the Fall I replace all
batteries. Alkalines get replaced because that is cheaper than losing
good devices to leaking batteries, and lithium batteries wane in
capacity over time (I don't pamper my batteries). I dread considering
replacing my ancient smartphone, because there aren't many now that have
removable batteries. I'd have to peel apart the phone case to replace
the battery.

It isn't just airtags (CR2032 batteries) and mobile phones that have
lithium batteries. As lithium becomes more prevalent, more fires are
caused by them. Replacing batteries is cheap insurance. For alkalines,
you get to keep the device instead of tossing from leaking. For
lithium, you reduce the chance of a fire.

However, when discarding batteries, you need to cover its contacts to
prevent shorts. Doesn't take much, like some tape. My local
regulations allow tossing alkalines into the regular trash. Lithiums
have to go to the hazardous waste recyling station. I only go every
couple years, so I store the discarded lithiums until them, but with
their contacts covered.

> There is already a class of luggage that is "smart", because they come
> with a tracker. They are listed as prohibited.

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/here-proof-some-airlines-not-fans-airtag-trackers
"The main thing that airlines may dislike about AirTags is that the
trackers can potentially do a better job at locating a lost bag."

Not sure why they would fear someone or something else finding a lost
bag that they could not. Here the airlines have to pay for lost bags.

https://www.airhelp.com/en/lost-or-delayed-luggage/
"The average compensation from an airline for checked luggage that is
either lost or damaged is $1,525 – $3,500, under U.S. and Montreal
Convention air passenger rights laws."

I've only had 1 lost bag. I've had them enjoy longer and more flights
than I, but lost only once. They give themselves many days to find the
bag. On the lost bag, I didn't anywhere near that amount for
compensation. It was more like $200, but it's been a long time to
really remember how much they paid. They claim took months to process.

The above Fox article (yeah, I know, Fox News) says the ban got lifted
when the FCC made rulings in favor of locator tags. After all, those
same airlines were allowing passengers to carry onboard their phones
which have much larger batteries, and made of lithium, along with more
radiated power from the BT, GPS, cellular, and wi-fi radios.

> There are many bad things they can do. Put a tracker on the kids in
> order to find the hidden wife, that ran away from the beatings, for
> instance.

Or, to recover the kids when kidnapped by an ex-spouse. Like good
things, they can be used for bad purpose, like baseball bats to the
head, or screwdrivers into the torso.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-10-19 21:10, VanguardLH wrote:
> "Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH wrote:
>>
>>> Wonder how long before the politicians catch up to pass laws making
>>> it illegal to use these trackers unless sanctioned by court order.
>>> Like raising the crime from burglary to robbery, might stalkers be
>>> prosecuted more harshly if they use a tracker? There are increasing
>>> reports on the use of trackers related to spousal abuse.
>>
>> It is already prohibited on planes luggage, on the ground of batteries
>> exploding, even though they use non rechargeable batteries.
>> Fortunately, they don't scan for them when doing the check in.
>
> I have never seen a CR-2032 lithium battery explode. But then I would
> think whatever is generating the high level of heat, like a fire, around
> the battery would be of far more concern.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OnJ-jrkrAQ
> (starts to expand about timemark 1:10)
>
> They can pop if shorted.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C7sXUg5N6M
> (timemark 1:30)
>
> Yet they allow phones in the airports and on the airlines which have
> much larger lithium batteries.

What they prohibit is batteries in the check in luggage. They tell you
to put anything with batteries in your carry on luggage inside the
cabin, where if they catch fire a human will see it and act.

Anything: watches, calculators, shaving machines...

On those where the batter can be removed, they tell you to do so and
carry the batteries inside the cabin.

...

>
>> There is already a class of luggage that is "smart", because they come
>> with a tracker. They are listed as prohibited.
>
> https://www.foxnews.com/tech/here-proof-some-airlines-not-fans-airtag-trackers
> "The main thing that airlines may dislike about AirTags is that the
> trackers can potentially do a better job at locating a lost bag."
>
> Not sure why they would fear someone or something else finding a lost
> bag that they could not. Here the airlines have to pay for lost bags.
>
> https://www.airhelp.com/en/lost-or-delayed-luggage/
> "The average compensation from an airline for checked luggage that is
> either lost or damaged is $1,525 – $3,500, under U.S. and Montreal
> Convention air passenger rights laws."

There is an history:

<https://cnnespanol.cnn.com/2023/08/06/aerolinea-maleta-perdida-rastreador-airtag-trax/>

use Google translate, but being cnn there should be already an English
version somewhere.

>
> I've only had 1 lost bag. I've had them enjoy longer and more flights
> than I, but lost only once. They give themselves many days to find the
> bag. On the lost bag, I didn't anywhere near that amount for
> compensation. It was more like $200, but it's been a long time to
> really remember how much they paid. They claim took months to process.
>
> The above Fox article (yeah, I know, Fox News) says the ban got lifted
> when the FCC made rulings in favor of locator tags. After all, those
> same airlines were allowing passengers to carry onboard their phones
> which have much larger batteries, and made of lithium, along with more
> radiated power from the BT, GPS, cellular, and wi-fi radios.
>
>> There are many bad things they can do. Put a tracker on the kids in
>> order to find the hidden wife, that ran away from the beatings, for
>> instance.
>
> Or, to recover the kids when kidnapped by an ex-spouse. Like good
> things, they can be used for bad purpose, like baseball bats to the
> head, or screwdrivers into the torso.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[sms]

On 10/18/2023 12:28 PM, VanguardLH wrote:

<snip.

> Seems the airtags are limited to one community: Apple users. While
> Tiles are covered by both communities: Apple and Android. With Apple,
> FindMy is always running (unless you disable the service) which drains
> battery power due to app power, GPS radio power, and BT power, and for
> 24 hours after you thought you powered off the phone. With Android,
> battery drain happens, too, when running the app.

There are a lot fewer Android users that have installed the Tile app
than there are iOS users that don't have to install anything.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-10-19 21:55, sms wrote:
> On 10/18/2023 12:28 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
>
> <snip.
>
>> Seems the airtags are limited to one community: Apple users.  While
>> Tiles are covered by both communities: Apple and Android.  With Apple,
>> FindMy is always running (unless you disable the service) which drains
>> battery power due to app power, GPS radio power, and BT power, and for
>> 24 hours after you thought you powered off the phone.  With Android,
>> battery drain happens, too, when running the app.
>
> There are a lot fewer Android users that have installed the Tile app
> than there are iOS users that don't have to install anything.

Which is why Google has developed a new API that doesn't need to install
anything and that will detect and report both Google Tags and Apple Tags.

How many times do I have to say it?

Both companies have agreed on it, maybe need to negotiate some bits more.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Frank Slootweg]

All true, but what the heck does that have to do with what *I* wrote!?

> You're walking around with your phone. Does the power to the BT radio
> vary based on the device to which it is currently connected? You think
> the BT radio will consume less power as you're walking along whether
> connecting to BT devices, or not. I don't make that assumption.

You apparently assume that I assume what you wrote. *Don't* assume!
*Ask* what your correspondent thinks or/and write what *you* think (and
*say* so). *Don't* put words in people's mouth!

> It has
> to connect to both LE and non-LE devices. An RF meter would determine
> which of us is correct. Because BT draws power is why some users turn
> it off to extend battery up-time.

Any slightly modern device is LE.

> Same for GPS.
>
> How accurate are Apple's location services on a phone when GPS is
> disabled?

I didn't say GPS was disabled. I said "GPS [is] not needed for
detecting an AirTag (or other Apple device)". Now (re)read (for
comprehension) the rest of that paragraph.

> What sources for location does Apple use that Android does
> not? Well, if they're walking around consuming power for the BT radio
> when not even connected to any BT devices, why wouldn't they be wasting
> power on keeping the GPS radio active? Why waste power on the GPS radio
> if it weren't included in location services?
>
> How accurate are Apple's location services without GPS? With GPS? If
> adding GPS didn't improve accuracy, why would anyone be wasting power on
> the GPS radio? Accuracy of GPS is 5 to 10 meters. Cell tower
> triangulation has an average accuracy that varies from 500m to 1500m
> (*). Telling someone that their airtag is somewhere in the suburb where
> is an airport isn't helpful. With GPS, and if the phone locks on 4
> satellites instead of 3, altitude is also included, so an airtag user
> getting a report from a smartphone users whose GPS radio gets 4 sats can
> tell if their bag is at the airport, or on a plane to some other city.
>
> (*) https://www.safetrax.in/how-gps-cell-tower-and-wi-fi-triangulation-help-in-tracking-location

Sigh! All total nonsense/irrelevant. Re-read what I wrote:

> > GPS [is] not needed for detecting an AirTag (or other Apple device). A

> > location service - not neccessarily GPS - might be needed to report the
> > location of the detected device.

Clues-by-four: 'for detecting' and 'to report'.

[<firmly_sitting_on_hands>]

> I wasn't talking about the airtags power consumption. Its 1-year
> battery life seems impressive to me. I was talking about power
> consumption on the phone to make possible the use of locator tags.

*READ*! I was also talking about the power consumption of the phone:

> > The phone (et al) doesn't need to use more than that amount
> > of power for doing its bit of the detecting.

See the words "phone" and "its" in that sentence!?

> Phone users are unlikely to disable GPS, so their phones are consuming
> power to the GPS radio whether there is a locator tag nearby, or not.

The GPS is not *disabled*, it's *off*, or better, it's not *on*.

There is this amazing technology where a service/app can turn GPS on
and off.

> They'll also have the BT radio active all the time. Those still consume
> power whether a locator tag was found, or not. However, a service
> (process) running all the time will consume power than when that service
> is disabled (and FindMy can be disabled). Having the FindMy service is
> Apple's way to trying to ensure their tags will work or the phone can be
> found rather than rely on a Tile app getting loaded in the background.

Sigh! Not that it matters, considering the much larger
misunderstandings, but the BT radio will not be "active" all the time,
nor will the service/ process be "running" all the time. Both will be
active/running only *part* of the time. For example for services/
processes, the cores will be executing threads of other
services/processes or they will be idle. Same for the BT radio, active
for some time, idle for some time.

I'm done. If you have a *question*, I'll try to answer it. But spare
us more of your misinformed theories (*still* without saying it's your
*theory*) on how things work.

[VanguardLH]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

> <https://cnnespanol.cnn.com/2023/08/06/aerolinea-maleta-perdida-rastreador-airtag-trax/>
>
> use Google translate, but being cnn there should be already an English
> version somewhere.

Firefox, my web browser, has a translate feature.

It's been a long time since I checked-in any luggage. Typically the
carry-on has all I need along with a travel bag to goes under the seat
in front of me. Usually the place I stay has laundry in the unit, or in
a nearby room, so I can take half the clothes, and wash them during the
time I'm there. Plus I don't have to wander to the baggage carousel to
wait for my check-in to show up. I use bright yellow rubberized paint
to put my initials on my luggage on all sides to help prevent someone
picking up my bag by mistake (so many bags look like lots of other
bags). Helps prevent theft, too. Thieves don't want to pick up
something that blares uniqueness, and I can see the letters as soon as
the bag comes onto the carousel. But I don't have to that anymore.
Just carry-on and travel bag. I used to pack so much extra stuff that I
didn't need when I had the big check-in luggage.

For large items, say, golf clubs, or sports team equipment as in the
article, I'll have it shipped to wherever I'm going, and contact the
front desk to hold the item until I arrive. Shipping is about the same
cost as airlines now charge for check-in bags, and more reliable. I've
sat in the plane during boarding looking out the window to see my
check-in bag sitting in the rain, and left behind as the plane taxied
away. It came on a later flight. If I ship, the bag is already waiting
at the resort, so I didn't have to wait at the carousel nor lug it
around. When heading back, anything bought gets shipped back.

[sms]

On 10/19/2023 1:03 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

<snip>

> How many times do I have to say it?
>
> Both companies have agreed on it, maybe need to negotiate some bits more.

No, you don't have to say it over and over, what's needed is for Google
to roll it out.

[VanguardLH]

You say the tracker uses BT LE. Okay, just how does that affect the
power consumed by the BT radio in the phone? Does the BT radio in the
phone fluctuate its power consumption per connection? The BT LE
connection to the tag will consume less power for the tag's battery, but
is the BT radio in the phone going to not use any other power while
radiating and looking for other devices? I really was not concerned
about the battery lifespan in the tracker which is estimated at 1 year.
I wondered about the phone's battery drain with BT always on. And now
I'm curious if the phone's BT radio uses more or less power depending on
the devices to which it connects.

BT radios do not consume zero power when not connected to any BT
devices. When on, the BT radio always consumes power. That's why some
users turn off the BT radio when not making any BT connections.

The phone may be connected to various BT devices using varying BT
versions, including LE, but how does that affect the power consumed by
the phone's BT radio? If you know of a tech article to cite stating
otherwise - that BT radio varies its radiant power when no devices are
connected, and varies its radiant power when LE versus non-LE devices
are connected, please elaborate. I'd like to know. I've not seen
anything that says the BT radio fluctates its power consumption, but
I've not read everything.

Scenario 1: BT radio is active, and scanning for BT devices. Whether
any BT devices are connected or not, the BT radio stays on
looking for more devices.
How much power does the BT radio in the phone consume?
Scenario 2: BT radio is on. BT LE device detected. Connection
established.
How much more power does the BT radio consume for just that
connection?
Scenario 3: BT radio is on. BT LE device detected. Connection
established. FindMy service is always running. Report is
sent via Internet (cellular data or wifi) to Apple. Does
the cellular radio consume any more power to send the data?

The BT radio, when on, will always be radiating trying to find devices.
The BT radio makes an LE connection. Then makes another BT connection,
and another. Is the power consumption by the phone's BT radio
incrementally increase with each connection? Does the phone's BT radio
use more power to make 20 BT connections than for 1 BT connection?

With the BT connection might come added Internet traffic using the
cellular or wifi radios, but my premise is the BT radio does not
fluctuate its power consumption regardless of how many BT connections or
the type of BT connections. The phone's BT radio consumes the same
amount of power with or without connections, and irrelevant of the type
of BT used (classic or LE).

Requirement the BT radio be on to use the trackers means consuming more
power. Some users turn it off to reduce battery drain. I didn't think
BT LE devices would affect how much power the BT radio in the phone
used. So mentioning BT LE for the trackers is not relevant to power
drain on the phone. If power drain varies by number of connections, and
by the type of connection, then supporting other people's trackers means
you are using more of your battery for them.

You must have BT on to help others find their trackers. If you're not
connecting to any of your own BT devices, why leave BT always running?
As for devices using classic BT or BT LE, I don't see how that is
relevant to battery drain on the phone.

>> How accurate are Apple's location services on a phone when GPS is
>> disabled?
>
> I didn't say GPS was disabled. I said "GPS [is] not needed for
> detecting an AirTag (or other Apple device)". Now (re)read (for
> comprehension) the rest of that paragraph.

GPS is never needed for /detecting/ airtags or tiles. That's a BT
connection. I don't see where I misunderstood or mistated that the
locator tag was using GPS nor that GPS was mandatory for reporting the
location of a tag. If I did, sorry. I was wondering how accuracy
suffers if the *phone* is not incorporating GPS with its location
services.

Yes, I was also talking about battery drain on the phone, but then you
mention the tags use BT LE. Why mention that if the phone's BT radio
doesn't change its battery drain based on classic BT versus BT LE?

Disabled versus off. Really, you're going to argue about that?

> the BT radio will not be "active" all the time, nor will the service/
> process be "running" all the time. Both will be active/running only
> *part* of the time.

Please cite Apple references that specify an on-off duty cycle for their
FindMy service. From what others have said here and elsewhere, the
FindMy service is running all the time.

Please cite Apple or Android references that declare an active BT radio
has a duty cyle where it is on sometimes, and off sometimes. How would
the phone's BT radio detect a BT device, especially one you are walking
past if the BT radio was off?

If the FindMy services (on the phone) was polling at intervals, and if
the BT radio was active at intervals, there could be some very long
intervals between both were active, and the tags would get missed.

If there were duty cycles for the service or BT radio, seems users could
tweak for longer on/active times to better ensure snagging a BT devices,
or for shorter off/inactive times (see, I'm not using enable or disable
in preference to your semantics) to reduce battery drain.

Do iPhones let you define the duty cycle of the FindMy service and their
BT radios?

BT LE incorporates sleeping to reduce power. Does that make the phone's
BT radio also sleep? What about other BT LE devices which are obviously
not synchronized on their sleep intervals. The phone's BT radio still
has to scan for other BT devices.

My understanding is BT LE targets the end devices, like headphones,
keyboards, mice, etc. That's why those locator tags can run so long on
their small battery. I wasn't aware BT LE would reduce power
consumption by the phone's BT radio. The end devices use the button
batteries because they use BT LE. You need a BLE compatible phone for
compatibility to communicate with those devices (classic and LE
protocols are not compatible), not to lower power consumption by the
phone's BT radio.

[VanguardLH]

Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
>> micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android
>>>
>>> I gather that most functions of airtags only work with iphones or ipads.
>>> So, get them anyhow if you're concerned someone will steal your car or
>>> your luggage or your shipments. Even if you only have an android phone.
>>> Borrow a phone or ipad to set them up, record on paper what you have to
>>> record, and IF anything is ever lost or stolen, run out and buy an
>>> iphone. How long does that take? It will probably never happen anyhow.
>>> But if it does, you're prepared.
>>

>> It's not just iPhones that are required to setup (as Frank noted), it's
>> also iPhones that must be close to the Airtag to pick up the BT signal,
>> and those iPhones need to be running the Find My app.
>

> Which is all of them.
>

>> The BT signal is
>> obviously too weak to transmit far enough for any Apple server to
>> receive, so nearby iPhones running the app must be present to pickup the
>> signal. You find your Airtag using other people's iPhones.
>

> And ipads, macs, ipods, airpods and apple watches.

>
>> Tile Pro (https://www.tile.com/en-us) has a BT range of 400 feet, and
>> works with apps for both Android and iOS. Obviously only Airtag or Tile
>> users are going to have the app installed or active on their phones.
>> Not everyone walking by your locator will have the app installed, or
>> their phone powered on whether they have the app or not.
>>
>> Considering the mobile market share of Android versus iOS, I'd opt for
>> the Tile locator.
>

> Except only a tiny fraction of mobile users will have the Tile app. Whereas
> pretty much every single apple device has FindMy. That's well over a
> billion devices. AirTags are far more likely to be pinged than a Tile.
>
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/272698/global-market-share-held-by-mobile-operating-systems-since-2009/

>>
>> Just remember it will be a tiny share of the mobile phone market that
>> has the matching app installed.
>

> For the Tile only.

>
>> Finding your phone doesn't require a locator tag. It's other stuff you
>> want to find where a locator tag is needed.
>>

Looks like Google wants to make use of their Find My Device service in
Android phones, and their Find My Device network. As with iPhones with
its FindMy service, Android phones are always running the Find My Device
(unless the service is turned off, an option for both phones).

https://www.theverge.com/2023/1/17/23558531/google-location-trackers-leak-airtag-uwb-bluetooth-finder

Are the Grogu (or Nest) locator tags for sale yet? If Apple's Airtags,
Tile, and Google all use incompatible protocols or schemes, looks like
we'll need "One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, One ring
to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them". Wow, LOTR already
had locator tags.

[micky]

In comp.mobile.android, on Thu, 19 Oct 2023 09:32:43 -0500,

candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:

>On 10/19/23 09:11, micky wrote:
>> Heavens, no. No device that starts witn i will ever be allowed in my
>> house.
>
>Inhaler?

Inhalers are okay but inhalers will never be allowed. Huff puff
hack-hack.

[Frank Slootweg]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.lh> wrote:
[...]

> Scenario 1: BT radio is active, and scanning for BT devices. Whether
> any BT devices are connected or not, the BT radio stays on
> looking for more devices.

The BT radio isn't 'on' all the time, it's polling.

> How much power does the BT radio in the phone consume?

Later.

> Scenario 2: BT radio is on. BT LE device detected. Connection
> established.
> How much more power does the BT radio consume for just that
> connection?

The "connection" is very short, probably milliseconds, but even a even
seconds uses negligible amounts of power compared to overal power
consumption of the phone.

> Scenario 3: BT radio is on. BT LE device detected. Connection
> established. FindMy service is always running. Report is
> sent via Internet (cellular data or wifi) to Apple. Does
> the cellular radio consume any more power to send the data?

Sigh! Are you serious!? Yes, but it's also negligible. The normal
phone to/from tower polling uses *way* more power than the few seconds
(if that much) needed to exchange the data.

[Endless repeating of incorrect/irrelevant assumptions deleted.]

Face it, for the scanning for and detecting of BT devices, the Find My
service does a similar thing as is done by Corana/COVID tracking apps.
The latter do hardly use any additional power (compared to the normal
functions of the phone). (Yes, we've actually used said app for a long,
long time. So again *facts*, instead of silly baseless assumptions.)
There is no reason to assume that the Find My service uses
substantially more power than the Corana/COVID tracking apps. After all,
the framework for both is developed by Apple.

[...]

> > I didn't say GPS was disabled. I said "GPS [is] not needed for
> > detecting an AirTag (or other Apple device)". Now (re)read (for
> > comprehension) the rest of that paragraph.
>
> GPS is never needed for /detecting/ airtags or tiles. That's a BT
> connection. I don't see where I misunderstood or mistated that the
> locator tag was using GPS nor that GPS was mandatory for reporting the
> location of a tag. If I did, sorry. I was wondering how accuracy
> suffers if the *phone* is not incorporating GPS with its location
> services.

No, what you said was much worse. You said that GPS had to be on for
the whole time.

> Disabled versus off. Really, you're going to argue about that?

Yes, because you don't seem to understand the (power) implications of
the difference. And there's the aspect of the duty cycle. When GPS is
enabled it is not actually on all the time. I.e. the difference between
the enabled/disabled toggle on your quick settings panel and the
presence or absence of the teardrop icon at the top of your screen.

[...]

I'm done. Until/unless we get conflicting information from actual
iDevice users - who have not disabled the Find My service -, I stand by
what I've written.

There are some iDevice users in this group, so perhaps they speak up,
but that probably won't be until after their elective root canal
procedures.

[VanguardLH]

Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> VanguardLH <V...@nguard.lh> wrote:
>

>> Scenario 1: BT radio is active, and scanning for BT devices. Whether
>> any BT devices are connected or not, the BT radio stays on
>> looking for more devices.
>
> The BT radio isn't 'on' all the time, it's polling.

BT LE sleeps at intervals, and why it saves power. Does BT Classic do
that, too? Your phone should be capable of connecting to both.

What is the polling interval on the phone's BT radio?

>> Scenario 2: BT radio is on. BT LE device detected. Connection
>> established.
>> How much more power does the BT radio consume for just that
>> connection?
>
> The "connection" is very short, probably milliseconds, but even a even
> seconds uses negligible amounts of power compared to overal power
> consumption of the phone.

When I made my statement, did I say there was a huge drain on the
battery? I didn't equate it to a muscle car when you floor it you can
see the gas gauge creep down to empty. Did I say there was a
significant drain on the battery? No, I said there battery drain.
Minimizing how much is the drain doesn't obviate there is a drain.

There is dirt on your face. Could be your face is covered with mud, or
just a little smudge. Regardless of magnitude, there is dirt on your
face.

Because I, nor anyone here, so far, knows what is the battery drain
under various scenarios of connection protocols, no one has yet to give
info on just how much drain is caused by the always-running FindMy (iOS)
or Find My Device (Android) services which obviously must be using the
BT radio whether a constant on-state or by a short BT poll initiated by
the services. Seems this is deep dark technology that neither Apple or
Google are divulging. So far, my web crawling hasn't turned up details,
either. All you get are personal experiences related as stories. I'm
not sure this detailed info is exposed.

>> Scenario 3: BT radio is on. BT LE device detected. Connection
>> established. FindMy service is always running. Report is
>> sent via Internet (cellular data or wifi) to Apple. Does
>> the cellular radio consume any more power to send the data?
>
> Sigh! Are you serious!? Yes, but it's also negligible. The normal
> phone to/from tower polling uses *way* more power than the few seconds
> (if that much) needed to exchange the data.

I wouldn't thought the FindMy or Find My Device services would use texts
since those require less initial (setup) power to establish a connection
to a cell tower than the initial burst of power to establish a call.

This is something else that I've not found noted: how the reporting
service connects to the server collecting the data (cellular call,
cellular data, wifi). Could be I just have not yet happened upon the
technical details on what method reporting uses, but I've not seen
anyone here yet offer their opinion or surmise. Could be it tries a
call, upon failing that tries texting, upon failing that tries cellular
data for an Internet connection, but if the phone has a wifi connection
then try that first for an Internet connection.

> Face it, for the scanning for and detecting of BT devices, the Find My
> service does a similar thing as is done by Corana/COVID tracking apps.
> The latter do hardly use any additional power (compared to the normal
> functions of the phone). (Yes, we've actually used said app for a long,
> long time. So again *facts*, instead of silly baseless assumptions.)

I'm not really interested in single cases trying to claim an example
that tries to prove a point. I have been touring the Web and forums,
and reports are inconsistent. Some say they notice battery drain
(although small), and some don't (perhaps too small to measure with the
crude info presented on a phone). Whether small or insigicant, there is
battery drain as I said. Yes, I know you and others want to pooh-pooh
the small drain, but it is still there.

"A few million here, a million there, and pretty soon you're talking
real money" (change "million" to "[tenths of] milliampere".)

> There is no reason to assume that the Find My service uses
> substantially more power than the Corana/COVID tracking apps. After all,
> the framework for both is developed by Apple.

> No, what you said was much worse. You said that GPS had to be on for
> the whole time.

The FindMy service enables/activates/turns on the GPS radio for a short
time when a tracker tag is detected via Bluetooth, and after sending the
report the service disables/deactivates/turns off the GPS radio?

I said what I did from what I read, and the articles mentioned GPS gets
used when sending the report where the tag got detected. It added
accuracy as any reading into location services will also explain. I
gave a link to an article that mentions location accuracy with GPS and
without. Without GPS, 1500 meters is a long ways away, so I don't see
the value in reporting a locator tag somewhere in a half-mile radius.

Yes, you said GPS was not required. Correct. Location services will
still operate without GPS. Without GPS, I'm not sure the point of
trying to find the tag in an area about the size of a metropolis
airport. It would, however, help in seeing your luggage is at some
other city's airport. You could see you left your bag at a college, but
you'll have to remember where you were there to retrace your steps. GPS
would make more accurate and less work finding the tracker.

I can drive (perhaps not legally) with fogged over car windows, but I'd
prefer to defog them beforehand.

Thanks for your opinion/viewpoints, though. Spurs me to investigate
further. Be nice if there was in-depth technical analysis of battery
drain by FindMy service on iPhones, Find My Device on Androids, and
radio power consumption instead of observational opinions based on
personal opinions. We all have our own stories to tell about our
separate and individual experiences.

I've never had a lithium battery explode. My experience. Others have
experienced lithium-caused fires. The stories really don't provide a
good analysis of why it happened for some, and not for others.

When I want to find out how many deer have been hit on what type of
roads, how close the flora was to the road, if there were barriers
alongside the road, time of day, doe or stag, time of year, headlights
on or off, I don't ask my friends if they hit a deer or not other than
to swap stories. Their stories doesn't provide information how many
deer get hit each year under what conditions. Stories are great (or
sometimes bad if it's a sad story), but it really doesn't give in-depth
background. Geesh, could you imagine trying to swap deer-hit stories at
that level of detail? But if you want to know why or how those
accidents happen, details are needed.

[VanguardLH]

micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:

> candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
>
>> micky wrote:
>
>>> Heavens, no. No device that starts witn i will ever be allowed in my
>>> house.
>>
>> Inhaler?
>
> Inhalers are okay but inhalers will never be allowed.

^^^^^^^^______________^^^^^^^^

You lost me. I want in on the joke.
It's about Apple prefixing an "i" then wouldn't it be iNhalers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMTdZqsp_KM
"Could those be the miners?"
"Sure, I mean, they're like 3 years old."
"Miners, not minors."
"You lost me."

[Chris]

VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
> Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH <V...@nguard.LH> wrote:
>>> micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Deep thoughts: Airtags for Android
>>>>
>>>> I gather that most functions of airtags only work with iphones or ipads.
>>>> So, get them anyhow if you're concerned someone will steal your car or
>>>> your luggage or your shipments. Even if you only have an android phone.
>>>> Borrow a phone or ipad to set them up, record on paper what you have to
>>>> record, and IF anything is ever lost or stolen, run out and buy an
>>>> iphone. How long does that take? It will probably never happen anyhow.
>>>> But if it does, you're prepared.
>>>
>>> It's not just iPhones that are required to setup (as Frank noted), it's
>>> also iPhones that must be close to the Airtag to pick up the BT signal,
>>> and those iPhones need to be running the Find My app.
>>
>> Which is all of them.
>

> Ah, I didn't know the Find My app would be running all the time while
> draining the battery.

Negligible and the benefit it provides is definitely worth it. Losing your
phone and then not being able to find it because you wanted to save 0.5%
battery life is silly.

> "Find My Service is ALWAYS running, as long as the phone is powered on,
> and even for 24 hours after the phone is powered off."
> (From a forum post.)
>
> If true, powering off your iPhone won't stop all battery drain.

Which its good idea if you lose your phone with it powered off.

> The
> only way to stop the service is to logout of the app which also disables
> the activation lock on the phone.

That's why it's bad idea to turn it off.

> GPS must also be kept running, so the
> phone finding the locator tag can report its position. There's the
> drain to keep the BT and GPS radios active along with running the app.
> Well, the same is true of using Android devices: run the app, GPS and BT
> active. So, do you want to drain your battery helping other users find
> their stuff?

It helps you too.

> Find My can be turned off in settings, so I may not be running on all
> those claimed billions (*) of Apple devices.
>
> (*) With a market share of 27%, and a worldwide population of 8 billion
> (neglecting distribution is not equal across all nations), there could
> only 2 billion Apple devices, but that's around the world, and not where
> is your device. From what I've read, the estimate is there are 1.46
> billion active iPhones. I suspect you are correct in that there will be
> fewer Androids running the Tile app around wherever is your locator tag.
> The point is detection is not as ubiquitous as the marketers want you to
> believe. Seems these locators are more oriented for use in large
> metropolis than out in the burbs or boonies. Can't see anyone detecting
> your device you lost while riding a tractor out in the middle of a corn
> field.

>>> The BT signal is
>>> obviously too weak to transmit far enough for any Apple server to
>>> receive, so nearby iPhones running the app must be present to pickup the
>>> signal. You find your Airtag using other people's iPhones.
>>
>> And ipads, macs, ipods, airpods and apple watches.

> \ \ \ \ \__ very small market
> \ \ \ \__ Airpods Pro 2nd gen
> \ \ \__ discontinued 2014
> \ \__ only for laptops, desktops are fixed
> \__ sales dipped to half in 2018, but came back up

>
>> Except only a tiny fraction of mobile users will have the Tile app.
>> Whereas pretty much every single apple device has FindMy. That's well
>> over a billion devices. AirTags are far more likely to be pinged than
>> a Tile.
>

> Could be, but we're still talking about the density of mobile device
> users that happen to be within 100-400 feet of wherever is your lost
> item. In a metropolis, or high density locations (e.g., airport), the
> chances are much better. In the burbs, or farther out, forget it.

If there are people it'll be picked up.

[Chris]

micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
> In comp.mobile.android, on Wed, 18 Oct 2023 22:14:05 -0500,
> candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/18/23 19:53, VanguardLH wrote:
>>> With cooperation with Apple, and to differentiate old incompatible Tiles
>>> with Tiles supporting the new API, might they be called iTiles?
>
> Heavens, no. No device that starts witn i will ever be allowed in my
> house.

So no iron, ironing board, induction cooker, ice cream maker, ice cube
tray? Or no internet?

[Jörg Lorenz]

Some people are iDiots. ;-)

--
Gutta cavat lapidem (Ovid)

[micky]

In comp.mobile.android, on Fri, 20 Oct 2023 22:44:21 -0500, VanguardLH

<V...@nguard.LH> wrote:

>micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
>
>> candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
>>
>>> micky wrote:
>>
>>>> Heavens, no. No device that starts witn i will ever be allowed in my
>>>> house.
>>>
>>> Inhaler?
>>
>> Inhalers are okay but inhalers will never be allowed.
> ^^^^^^^^______________^^^^^^^^
>
>You lost me. I want in on the joke.
>It's about Apple prefixing an "i" then wouldn't it be iNhalers?

Exactly. If Apple made it they'd call it an iNhaler.

>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMTdZqsp_KM
>"Could those be the miners?"
>"Sure, I mean, they're like 3 years old."
>"Miners, not minors."
>"You lost me."

Wow, I don't go to enough movies. I didnt' even hear about Galaxy Quest
and it seems pretty funny.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-10-21 05:36, VanguardLH wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
>
>> VanguardLH <V...@nguard.lh> wrote:
>>
>>> Scenario 1: BT radio is active, and scanning for BT devices. Whether
>>> any BT devices are connected or not, the BT radio stays on
>>> looking for more devices.
>>
>> The BT radio isn't 'on' all the time, it's polling.
>
> BT LE sleeps at intervals, and why it saves power. Does BT Classic do
> that, too? Your phone should be capable of connecting to both.
>
> What is the polling interval on the phone's BT radio?

You can probably find Google technical papers and find out.

>
>>> Scenario 2: BT radio is on. BT LE device detected. Connection
>>> established.
>>> How much more power does the BT radio consume for just that
>>> connection?
>>
>> The "connection" is very short, probably milliseconds, but even a even
>> seconds uses negligible amounts of power compared to overal power
>> consumption of the phone.
>
> When I made my statement, did I say there was a huge drain on the
> battery? I didn't equate it to a muscle car when you floor it you can
> see the gas gauge creep down to empty. Did I say there was a
> significant drain on the battery? No, I said there battery drain.
> Minimizing how much is the drain doesn't obviate there is a drain.
>
> There is dirt on your face. Could be your face is covered with mud, or
> just a little smudge. Regardless of magnitude, there is dirt on your
> face.
>
> Because I, nor anyone here, so far, knows what is the battery drain
> under various scenarios of connection protocols, no one has yet to give
> info on just how much drain is caused by the always-running FindMy (iOS)
> or Find My Device (Android) services which obviously must be using the
> BT radio whether a constant on-state or by a short BT poll initiated by
> the services.

I know from personal experience how much the Android Tile App takes: 1%.
I don't suppose other apps will be much different.

> Seems this is deep dark technology that neither Apple or
> Google are divulging. So far, my web crawling hasn't turned up details,
> either. All you get are personal experiences related as stories. I'm
> not sure this detailed info is exposed.
>
>>> Scenario 3: BT radio is on. BT LE device detected. Connection
>>> established. FindMy service is always running. Report is
>>> sent via Internet (cellular data or wifi) to Apple. Does
>>> the cellular radio consume any more power to send the data?
>>
>> Sigh! Are you serious!? Yes, but it's also negligible. The normal
>> phone to/from tower polling uses *way* more power than the few seconds
>> (if that much) needed to exchange the data.
>
> I wouldn't thought the FindMy or Find My Device services would use texts
> since those require less initial (setup) power to establish a connection
> to a cell tower than the initial burst of power to establish a call.
>
> This is something else that I've not found noted: how the reporting
> service connects to the server collecting the data (cellular call,
> cellular data, wifi). Could be I just have not yet happened upon the
> technical details on what method reporting uses, but I've not seen
> anyone here yet offer their opinion or surmise. Could be it tries a
> call, upon failing that tries texting, upon failing that tries cellular
> data for an Internet connection, but if the phone has a wifi connection
> then try that first for an Internet connection.

Just Internet. Why complicate things?


...

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[candycanearter07]

On 10/20/23 22:44, VanguardLH wrote:
> micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
>
>> candycanearter07 <n...@thanks.net> wrote:
>>
>>> micky wrote:
>>
>>>> Heavens, no. No device that starts witn i will ever be allowed in my
>>>> house.
>>>
>>> Inhaler?
>>
>> Inhalers are okay but inhalers will never be allowed.
> ^^^^^^^^______________^^^^^^^^
>
> You lost me. I want in on the joke.
> It's about Apple prefixing an "i" then wouldn't it be iNhalers?

I was making a joke like "oh you don't let *anything* starting with an I
in?" not specifically that apple made it

[The Real Bev]

On 10/21/23 6:24 AM, micky wrote:

> Wow, I don't go to enough movies. I didnt' even hear about Galaxy Quest
> and it seems pretty funny.

See it. You won't be disappointed.

--
Cheers,Bev
To define recursion, we must first define recursion.

[Chris]

Not quite so clear cut. Devices with rechargeable within them can be put in
the hold. Spare batteries cannot. I don't quite understand the distinction,
but there it is.
https://www.caa.co.uk/passengers/before-you-fly/baggage/items-that-are-allowed-in-baggage

[micky]

In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 21 Oct 2023 10:10:18 -0700, The Real Bev

<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 10/21/23 6:24 AM, micky wrote:
>
>> Wow, I don't go to enough movies. I didnt' even hear about Galaxy Quest
>> and it seems pretty funny.
>
>See it. You won't be disappointed.

Well, it's on youtube, $4 to rent and 15 to buy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2KzpIbSVZs&pp=ygUNIEdhbGF4eSBRdWVzdA%3D%3D

It's not the case here but sometimes there is a version to rent/buy, and
another version that's free. The free version doesn't look like someone
set up a camera pointing at the TV, so where does the poster get it?

I presume, but am not quite certain, that it's stolen and I would be an
accessory if I watch it instead of the paid version, is that not right?

[VanguardLH]

https://www.lookmovie2.to
They don't want webcrawlers or webbots to download all their content
consuming bandwidth for days on end. You may get a CAPTCHA to use.

Do a search on a movie, say, equalizer and notice you can get v3 of the
movie series. Find something interesting in your cable provider's
channel lineup, but it's a premium channel (HBO, MAX, SHO)? Try here to
watch or get a copy. To reduce bandwidth, they probably reduce
resolution compare to what you could rent/buy.

If you don't want to keep re-watching through a web site, get a
streaming capture program. Some folks use web browser add-ons. I use
jaksta's Media Recorder that operates as a web proxy, doesn't make we
wait to capture until the video is done playing, download rate is as
fast as the server will deliver, starts the download without even
needing the web browser still loaded, etc. It is not a screen capture
proxy. It captures the audio/video stream. It's not free ($50).

Once you start playing a video stream, jaksta will discover where is the
source, and continue the download. You don't have to watch the movie,
and probably better to stop the one playing in the web browser to reduce
bandwidth to stream 2 copies. Often you don't have to even leave the
web browser running, but I've hit sites where exiting the web browser
aborts the streaming to jaksta. I stop the video, leave the web browser
open, and wait until jaksta gets the video which is usually a lot faster
than having to watch the video. A 1 hour 48 minute movie of Equalizer 3
took a little under 3 minutes to capture, but it's all in Italian, and
no subtitles, so no reason to keep it.

Some movies will play in a foreign language. You may have to find a
movie dubbed in your language, but too often the dubs are poorly done by
the voice actors. Subtitles (closed captioning) will not be captured as
that is a separate stream from the video stream.

Although RTMPe (encrypted RTMP) was not intended to be a DRM enforcement
scheme, lots of sites use it that way. Jaksta will not record RTMPe to
prevent illegal recording of encrypted streams. You have to use another
tool to capture RTMPe streams, and those tools tend to move around where
hosted to avoid the law.

Also, there are sites that use Javascripted web apps to view videos.
The encoding is in the player, so only that player at the time of
download (a different key is inserted) can be used to play the video.

[The Real Bev]

Let your conscience be your guide.


--
Cheers, Bev
"Johnston [Island] was the home of a U.S. chemical weapons disposal
facility for 10 years before operations ended in November 2000.
The island was turned into a wildlife preserve."
© 2002 The Associated Press

[The Real Bev]

On 10/21/23 6:34 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
> A 1 hour 48 minute movie of Equalizer 3
> took a little under 3 minutes to capture, but it's all in Italian, and
> no subtitles, so no reason to keep it.

There's a website from which you can download subtitles. Can't remember
its name, but it's probably obvious.

[micky]

In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:59:24 -0700, The Real Bev

<bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 10/21/23 4:33 PM, micky wrote:
>> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 21 Oct 2023 10:10:18 -0700, The Real Bev
>> <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 10/21/23 6:24 AM, micky wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wow, I don't go to enough movies. I didnt' even hear about Galaxy Quest
>>>> and it seems pretty funny.
>>>
>>>See it. You won't be disappointed.
>>
>> Well, it's on youtube, $4 to rent and 15 to buy.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2KzpIbSVZs&pp=ygUNIEdhbGF4eSBRdWVzdA%3D%3D
>>
>> It's not the case here but sometimes there is a version to rent/buy, and
>> another version that's free. The free version doesn't look like someone
>> set up a camera pointing at the TV, so where does the poster get it?
>>
>> I presume, but am not quite certain, that it's stolen and I would be an
>> accessory if I watch it instead of the paid version, is that not right?
>
>Let your conscience be your guide.

But I'm asking if the free ones are a violation of copyright?

I can't use my conscience if I don't know if the free one is legit or
not.

It's conceivable that the movies are public domain but yet someone is
charging anyhow, just because they can and people will pay. Or maybe
they have a better quality print somehow so that's why they charge, or
maybe they could charge because when they posted it, no one else had
yet. But that the other that is free is fully legit. Does that happen?

[Wally J]

There are (wanted) trackers... & there are _unwanted trackers_.

*For those _unwanted_ trackers, Android has a native alert*
<https://i.postimg.cc/597JNDVR/unknowntracker01.jpg>

*Unknown tracker alerts currently work with Apple AirTags*
<https://support.google.com/android/answer/13658562>

How unknown trackers work:

An unknown tracker alert is sent when someone else's tracker device
is separated from them and detected to be traveling with you
(and out of Bluetooth range from the owner).

The notification alerts you to the tracker and tells you how
to find it and what to do next.

Bluetooth trackers, also called tags, are small devices that you
can attach to items, like keys or a backpack, to help you locate
them if they get lost.

However, in some cases, these devices can be misused to track
others without their knowledge or consent.

You can identify, find, and remove trackers that have been placed
near you or in your belongings without your knowledge or consent.


I didn't even open this thread but I knew it was here; then, while
researching new real-time google play protect scanning features
for Vanguard, I ran into this (which I made a one-tap shortcut to).
<https://i.postimg.cc/597JNDVR/unknowntracker01.jpg>

Notice the tracker alert requires both Bluetooth & Location.

URI=intent:#Intent;package=com.google.android.gms;component=com.google.android.gms/com.google.android.personalsafety.settings.BleTagSettingsActivity;end
ACTION=android.intent.action.VIEW
COMPONENT=com.google.android.gms/com.google.android.personalsafety.settings.BleTagSettingsActivity
PACKAGE=com.google.android.gms
LABEL=Unknown tracker alerts
NAME=com.google.android.personalsafety.settings.BleTagSettingsActivity
PACKAGE=com.google.android.gms

If you want to start this Android activity from Windows, use this:
C:\> adb shell cmd activity start --user 0 -a android.intent.action.VIEW -n com.google.android.gms/com.google.android.personalsafety.settings.BleTagSettingsActivity -f 0 com.google.android.gms

In summary, this post is about _unknown trackers_ and how to turn
the Android native unknown-tracker alert on or off to see if there
are any of Apple's airtags tracking you.

If you know more, please add value so that everyone learns from you.
--
The whole point of Usenet is to find people who know more than you do.
And to contribute to the overall tribal knowledge value of the newsgroup.

[Frank Slootweg]

Carlos E. R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

> On 2023-10-21 05:36, VanguardLH wrote:
> > Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> VanguardLH <V...@nguard.lh> wrote:

[...]

> > Because I, nor anyone here, so far, knows what is the battery drain
> > under various scenarios of connection protocols, no one has yet to give
> > info on just how much drain is caused by the always-running FindMy (iOS)
> > or Find My Device (Android) services which obviously must be using the
> > BT radio whether a constant on-state or by a short BT poll initiated by
> > the services.
>
> I know from personal experience how much the Android Tile App takes: 1%.
> I don't suppose other apps will be much different.

He doesn't want to hear about experience. Not about personal, not
about that of hundreds of thousands, not about that of hundreds of
millions. We have data ranging from 0.5% to 1% and his fiction about
battery "drain". If I was an Apple user, I would disable Find My quick
smart. Can't have 0.5% battery "drain", can we now!?

> >>> Scenario 3: BT radio is on. BT LE device detected. Connection
> >>> established. FindMy service is always running. Report is
> >>> sent via Internet (cellular data or wifi) to Apple. Does
> >>> the cellular radio consume any more power to send the data?
> >>
> >> Sigh! Are you serious!? Yes, but it's also negligible. The normal
> >> phone to/from tower polling uses *way* more power than the few seconds
> >> (if that much) needed to exchange the data.
> >
> > I wouldn't thought the FindMy or Find My Device services would use texts
> > since those require less initial (setup) power to establish a connection
> > to a cell tower than the initial burst of power to establish a call.
> >
> > This is something else that I've not found noted: how the reporting
> > service connects to the server collecting the data (cellular call,
> > cellular data, wifi). Could be I just have not yet happened upon the
> > technical details on what method reporting uses, but I've not seen
> > anyone here yet offer their opinion or surmise. Could be it tries a
> > call, upon failing that tries texting, upon failing that tries cellular
> > data for an Internet connection, but if the phone has a wifi connection
> > then try that first for an Internet connection.
>
> Just Internet. Why complicate things?

Indeed! "use texts"? "establish a call"? The mind boggles!

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-10-22 08:01, micky wrote:
> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:59:24 -0700, The Real Bev
> <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/21/23 4:33 PM, micky wrote:
>>> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 21 Oct 2023 10:10:18 -0700, The Real Bev
>>> <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/21/23 6:24 AM, micky wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wow, I don't go to enough movies. I didnt' even hear about Galaxy Quest
>>>>> and it seems pretty funny.
>>>>
>>>> See it. You won't be disappointed.
>>>
>>> Well, it's on youtube, $4 to rent and 15 to buy.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2KzpIbSVZs&pp=ygUNIEdhbGF4eSBRdWVzdA%3D%3D
>>>
>>> It's not the case here but sometimes there is a version to rent/buy, and
>>> another version that's free. The free version doesn't look like someone
>>> set up a camera pointing at the TV, so where does the poster get it?
>>>
>>> I presume, but am not quite certain, that it's stolen and I would be an
>>> accessory if I watch it instead of the paid version, is that not right?
>>
>> Let your conscience be your guide.
>
> But I'm asking if the free ones are a violation of copyright?
>
> I can't use my conscience if I don't know if the free one is legit or
> not.

It depends on the country. Here, downloading is legal as far as I
remember, but sharing is not.

>
> It's conceivable that the movies are public domain but yet someone is
> charging anyhow, just because they can and people will pay. Or maybe
> they have a better quality print somehow so that's why they charge, or
> maybe they could charge because when they posted it, no one else had
> yet. But that the other that is free is fully legit. Does that happen?

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Chris]

micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:59:24 -0700, The Real Bev
> <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/21/23 4:33 PM, micky wrote:
>>> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 21 Oct 2023 10:10:18 -0700, The Real Bev
>>> <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/21/23 6:24 AM, micky wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wow, I don't go to enough movies. I didnt' even hear about Galaxy Quest
>>>>> and it seems pretty funny.
>>>>
>>>> See it. You won't be disappointed.
>>>
>>> Well, it's on youtube, $4 to rent and 15 to buy.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2KzpIbSVZs&pp=ygUNIEdhbGF4eSBRdWVzdA%3D%3D
>>>
>>> It's not the case here but sometimes there is a version to rent/buy, and
>>> another version that's free. The free version doesn't look like someone
>>> set up a camera pointing at the TV, so where does the poster get it?
>>>
>>> I presume, but am not quite certain, that it's stolen and I would be an
>>> accessory if I watch it instead of the paid version, is that not right?
>>
>> Let your conscience be your guide.
>
> But I'm asking if the free ones are a violation of copyright?

They are. Most jurisdictions are turning a blind eye to downloads and some
have even put it into law.

However, anyone uploading copyrighted material can be prosecuted.

> I can't use my conscience if I don't know if the free one is legit or
> not.
>
> It's conceivable that the movies are public domain

Copyright for films is 50 years (in many countries) supposedly but the
studios still claim other rights in order to restrict the availability in
the public domain. Disney is a classic example as all their early work
should be in the public domain by now.
https://screenrant.com/characters-public-domain-disney-copyright-lobby/

[Chris]

micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:59:24 -0700, The Real Bev
> <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 10/21/23 4:33 PM, micky wrote:
>>> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 21 Oct 2023 10:10:18 -0700, The Real Bev
>>> <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/21/23 6:24 AM, micky wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wow, I don't go to enough movies. I didnt' even hear about Galaxy Quest
>>>>> and it seems pretty funny.
>>>>
>>>> See it. You won't be disappointed.
>>>
>>> Well, it's on youtube, $4 to rent and 15 to buy.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2KzpIbSVZs&pp=ygUNIEdhbGF4eSBRdWVzdA%3D%3D
>>>
>>> It's not the case here but sometimes there is a version to rent/buy, and
>>> another version that's free. The free version doesn't look like someone
>>> set up a camera pointing at the TV, so where does the poster get it?
>>>
>>> I presume, but am not quite certain, that it's stolen and I would be an
>>> accessory if I watch it instead of the paid version, is that not right?
>>
>> Let your conscience be your guide.
>
> But I'm asking if the free ones are a violation of copyright?

They are. Most jurisdictions are turning a blind eye to downloads and some
have even put it into law.

However, anyone uploading copyrighted material can be prosecuted.

> I can't use my conscience if I don't know if the free one is legit or
> not.
>
> It's conceivable that the movies are public domain

[Wally J]

"Carlos E. R." <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote

>> But I'm asking if the free ones are a violation of copyright?
>>
>> I can't use my conscience if I don't know if the free one is legit or
>> not.
>
> It depends on the country. Here, downloading is legal as far as I
> remember, but sharing is not.

Copyright law is such that there are about a dozen clauses which _all_ have
to be met for it to be infringing, just as fraud requires 3 to 5 clauses,
again, _all_ of which have to be met (criminal versus civil differing a
bit).

To show you how hard it is to meet _all_ the clauses for torrent files,
there has never been a successful court case against someone who tormented
who contested that torrent (Malibu being the exception for a while until
the lawyers were disbarred because they seeded their torrents and then sued
the people who downloaded them - for which they were disbarred).

Now plenty of people paid up without fighting the charges.
But nobody lost a case yet.

I repeat.

You can't find a _single_ successful US court case of movies torrented
where the defendant fought the charges - simply because all clauses must be
met.

[Wally J]

Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote

>> But I'm asking if the free ones are a violation of copyright?
>
> They are.

That's a ridiculously wrong answer, Chris.
*Look up _Fair Use_ for example.*

Remember, _every single clause_ has to be met for it to be considered
infringement - where you don't know of anything but a single clause.

Incredibly stupid people like Chris bother me, not because they're stupid
(as I said, most people are stupid) but because they don't know they're
stupid.

So they make stupid remarks that are completely wrong like what Chris did.
And they think they're right.

Look up "fair use" before responding...
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fair+use+copyright+laws>

[micky]

In comp.mobile.android, on Sun, 22 Oct 2023 16:31:55 -0000 (UTC), Chris

<ithi...@gmail.com> wrote:

>micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
>> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 21 Oct 2023 21:59:24 -0700, The Real Bev
>> <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/21/23 4:33 PM, micky wrote:
>>>> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 21 Oct 2023 10:10:18 -0700, The Real Bev
>>>> <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/21/23 6:24 AM, micky wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Wow, I don't go to enough movies. I didnt' even hear about Galaxy Quest
>>>>>> and it seems pretty funny.
>>>>>
>>>>> See it. You won't be disappointed.
>>>>
>>>> Well, it's on youtube, $4 to rent and 15 to buy.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2KzpIbSVZs&pp=ygUNIEdhbGF4eSBRdWVzdA%3D%3D
>>>>
>>>> It's not the case here but sometimes there is a version to rent/buy, and
>>>> another version that's free. The free version doesn't look like someone
>>>> set up a camera pointing at the TV, so where does the poster get it?
>>>>
>>>> I presume, but am not quite certain, that it's stolen and I would be an
>>>> accessory if I watch it instead of the paid version, is that not right?
>>>
>>> Let your conscience be your guide.
>>
>> But I'm asking if the free ones are a violation of copyright?
>
>They are. Most jurisdictions are turning a blind eye to downloads and some
>have even put it into law.

Wow. That's like making a law that receiving stolen goods is legal.
(there was something in law school called BPV, bona fide puchaser for
value, but clearly I never understood where that applied.

>
>However, anyone uploading copyrighted material can be prosecuted.

And yet they're so blatant, and that's what got me thinking it was
really legal.

>
>> I can't use my conscience if I don't know if the free one is legit or
>> not.
>>
>> It's conceivable that the movies are public domain
>
>Copyright for films is 50 years (in many countries) supposedly but the
>studios still claim other rights in order to restrict the availability in
>the public domain. Disney is a classic example as all their early work
>should be in the public domain by now.
>https://screenrant.com/characters-public-domain-disney-copyright-lobby/

I wouldn't want just anyone uploading Snow White.

[Wally J]

Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote

> However, anyone uploading copyrighted material can be prosecuted.

While every case is different, there has never been a successful movie
torrenting case in the USA to my knowledge (we covered this in gory detail
in the past) for an individual such as we are who fought the charges.

There was only the Malibu case where, in the end, the lawyers were
disbarred because it eventually turned out _they_ were torrenting it!

Other than that, find a _single_ successful USA court case where an
individual was charged with torrenting movies and who lost that case in
court.

Having said that, you likely _will_ get a notice if you don't use a VPN but
getting a notice and being sued are completely different beasts in the US.

[Chris]

It was more about acknowledging that it was unenforceable and putting some
boundaries down.

>> However, anyone uploading copyrighted material can be prosecuted.
>
> And yet they're so blatant, and that's what got me thinking it was
> really legal.
>>
>>> I can't use my conscience if I don't know if the free one is legit or
>>> not.
>>>
>>> It's conceivable that the movies are public domain
>>
>> Copyright for films is 50 years (in many countries) supposedly but the
>> studios still claim other rights in order to restrict the availability in
>> the public domain. Disney is a classic example as all their early work
>> should be in the public domain by now.
>> https://screenrant.com/characters-public-domain-disney-copyright-lobby/
>
> I wouldn't want just anyone uploading Snow White.

Why not? It should be in the public domain. Like Shakespeare or Dickens.
Anyone can print and sell a copy of the books so why not a film?

[Wally J]

Chris <ithi...@gmail.com> wrote

>> Wow. That's like making a law that receiving stolen goods is legal.
>> (there was something in law school called BPV, bona fide puchaser for
>> value, but clearly I never understood where that applied.
>
> It was more about acknowledging that it was unenforceable and putting some
> boundaries down.

Look up "fair use" before responding...
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fair+use+copyright+laws>

The problem isn't that the law is unenforceable since there have been
_many_ court cases on copyright infringement, including for Google Books.
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=google+books+copyright+case+dismissed>

The problem is most people are stupid who make blanket claims like micky
and Chris did (both of whom are bona fide stupid people in all respects).
<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=torrent+movie+copyright+case+dismissed>

Copyright law is complex - it's not just a single component has to be met.
All the components _must_ be met for it to be considered infringement.
*You can't sue torrent users just for the hell of it, judge rules*
<https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/contra-piracy-bittorrent-lawsuit-movie/>

Unfortunately, 990 out of 1000 people are as stupid as Chris & micky are.
They "think" they understand copyright law - but clearly they simply can't.

*Legal issues with BitTorrent*
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_with_BitTorrent>

[micky]

In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 21 Oct 2023 20:34:07 -0500, VanguardLH

<V...@nguard.LH> wrote:

>micky <NONONO...@fmguy.com> wrote:
>
>> In comp.mobile.android, on Sat, 21 Oct 2023 10:10:18 -0700, The Real Bev
>> <bashl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 10/21/23 6:24 AM, micky wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wow, I don't go to enough movies. I didnt' even hear about Galaxy Quest
>>>> and it seems pretty funny.
>>>
>>>See it. You won't be disappointed.
>>
>> Well, it's on youtube, $4 to rent and 15 to buy.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2KzpIbSVZs&pp=ygUNIEdhbGF4eSBRdWVzdA%3D%3D
>>
>> It's not the case here but sometimes there is a version to rent/buy, and
>> another version that's free. The free version doesn't look like someone
>> set up a camera pointing at the TV, so where does the poster get it?
>>
>> I presume, but am not quite certain, that it's stolen and I would be an
>> accessory if I watch it instead of the paid version, is that not right?
>
>https://www.lookmovie2.to
>They don't want webcrawlers or webbots to download all their content
>consuming bandwidth for days on end. You may get a CAPTCHA to use.
>
>Do a search on a movie, say, equalizer and notice you can get v3 of the
>movie series. Find something interesting in your cable provider's
>channel lineup, but it's a premium channel (HBO, MAX, SHO)? Try here to
>watch or get a copy. To reduce bandwidth, they probably reduce
>resolution compare to what you could rent/buy.

It sounds like you are giving me ways to avoid paying for video, but you
don't say whether the website above is playing pirated videos or not .

My question related to Youtube, when it has two versions of the same
video, one for $4 and one for free. If the one for free is stolen,
pirated, offered in violation of the copyright. But the same question
applies if the paid version is on Youtube and a free version is on the
website aboeve.