Together, let's clarify the difference between OSMAnd, OSMAnd+, and OSMAnd~ please

[Roy Tremblay]

The hardest part of freeware is figuring where to get the best.
So, together, let's clarify for everyone what's available on Android for
OSMAnd maps (e.g., contour lines).

In another recent thread, it was brought up that there are two versions of
OSMAnd, namely:
OSMAnd (which apparently doesn't do contour lines, for free)
OSMAnd+ (which apparently does do contour lines)
Where I noted that my Android phone has a freeware version of:
OSMAnd~ (which I understood to be the payware functionality, for free)

It has been so long since I installed OSMAnd~ that I can only tell you what
my own machine is telling me, which is...

Majeur Application Info reports that there are two "things" I have:
OsmAnd~ 2.5.4, net.osmand.plus User, 83.30MB
OsmAnd Contour lines 1.0, net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid User, 76KB

The APKs are stored at:
/data/app/net.osmand.plus-1.apk
/data/app/net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid-2.apk
The Checkey utility reports similar information in addition to signature
information (encryption I guess) where I notice that the certificate issuer
is "CN=FDroid" and the SHA256 hash is as follows for each "thing":
net.osmand.plus SHA256=38294eaac95c3bb5a994692cd7758f8bcdbffb4081
net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid a61f923e381d5b05ef384df4b435f8443d509c8414

This confirms my original thought that there are (were?) 3 versions:
free (crippled)
paid + (not crippled)
free ~ (not crippled)
https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/42079/differences-between-osmand-and-osmand

A bit of googling on F-Droid finds OSMAnd~ Version 2.6.3, Apr 30, 2017:
https://f-droid.org/packages/net.osmand.plus/
https://f-droid.org/repo/net.osmand.plus_263.apk
https://f-droid.org/wiki/page/net.osmand.srtmPlugin.paid

There's a discussion about the contour lines in that free version:
https://forum.f-droid.org/t/osmand-contour-lines-and-hillsides-plugin/649

Here's a discussion specifically about the tilde version:
https://forum.f-droid.org/t/what-has-happend-to-osmand/823/3

Given that, I think the main question is whether the OSMAnd~ version really
does give you the OSMAnd+ capabilities, for free.

Since I rarely use OSMAnd~, I can't really say for sure what it does.
Does anyone have more detail than I listed above?

[Poutnik]

Dne 28/07/2017 v 22:33 Roy Tremblay napsal(a):

>
> Given that, I think the main question is whether the OSMAnd~ version really
> does give you the OSMAnd+ capabilities, for free.
>
> Since I rarely use OSMAnd~, I can't really say for sure what it does.
> Does anyone have more detail than I listed above?
>

It does, but it does not keep pace
with updates of OSMAnd+, i.e. there is update lag.

As OSMAnd is open source, hosted by GitHub,
so it is just compiled by the 3rd party.

--
Poutnik ( The Pilgrim, Der Wanderer )

A wise man guards words he says,
as they say about him more,
than he says about the subject.

[Roy Tremblay]

Poutnik <pou...@privacy.net> actually wrote:

>> Given that, I think the main question is whether the OSMAnd~ version really
>> does give you the OSMAnd+ capabilities, for free.
>>
>> Since I rarely use OSMAnd~, I can't really say for sure what it does.
>> Does anyone have more detail than I listed above?
>>
> It does, but it does not keep pace
> with updates of OSMAnd+, i.e. there is update lag.
>
> As OSMAnd is open source, hosted by GitHub,
> so it is just compiled by the 3rd party.

Since any fool can pay for functionality, it takes knowledge and effort to
find that same or better functionality legally for free - so I thank you
for confirming what I had always thought since I last studied Android and
iOS map software about 3 years ago.

What you say confirms what I thought at that time, which is that OSMAnd~ is
the legally free opensource version of the OSMAnd+ payware, where I suspect
the opensource part came first, and the payware is what someone copied to
make a buck off of the opensource software.

It may be a bit like the situation with NewPipe being the legally free and
ad-free version of AT NewPipe which is free, but has ads - where the
scoundrels who made AT New Pipe just copied the opensource version of
NewPipe and passed it off as the original after adding ads to the
opensource software - such that only a fool will download it because the
whole point is to be ad free.

In essence, it seems that in both cases (OSMAnd and NewPipe), something
like the following "may" have occurred:
1. First, someone wrote the original opensource code
2. Then, someone copied it, and to make a buck, crippled it (somehow).
3. Then, lazy fools used the crippled version & then paid to uncripple it.

Meanwhile, it could very well be that the scoundrels who simply copied the
original opensource code and crippled it to make a buck are laughing all
the way to the bank on the lazy fools' dollar.

NOTE: I'm not saying this actually happened because all I know is the
obvious so I am only inferring what seems easy to infer from that obvious
connection in both the case of NewPipe and OSMAnd freeware.

In my humble opinion, only fools pay for what they can easily legally get
for free, where I know there are a hellova lot of fools out there, so, I'm
trying to HELP those fools by asking specific questions in this thread.

NOTE: There are three kinds of people who PAY for what they can get for
free, which are:
1. Fools who don't know any better.
2. Not fools. Just lazy. Where the money doesn't matter to them.
3. Neither fools nor lazy. They just want to give money to developers.

Bear in mind before you respond that it "appears" that the uncrippled free
open source code came first. Please keep *that* in mind in all your
responses, because that critical sequence matters to the point.

[Poutnik]

Dne 28/07/2017 v 23:02 Roy Tremblay napsal(a):

> Poutnik <pou...@privacy.net> actually wrote:
>

>> It does, but it does not keep pace
>> with updates of OSMAnd+, i.e. there is update lag.
>>
>> As OSMAnd is open source, hosted by GitHub,
>> so it is just compiled by the 3rd party.
>
> Since any fool can pay for functionality, it takes knowledge and effort to
> find that same or better functionality legally for free - so I thank you
> for confirming what I had always thought since I last studied Android and
> iOS map software about 3 years ago.
>
> What you say confirms what I thought at that time, which is that OSMAnd~ is
> the legally free opensource version of the OSMAnd+ payware, where I suspect
> the opensource part came first, and the payware is what someone copied to
> make a buck off of the opensource software.
>

No, OSMAnd and OSMAnd+ are provided by the same developers.
User of OSMAnd+ + users of paid live update service
helps to pay development and high data traffic.

And no, you cannot always find required combination of functionalities
in free solutions.

[Roy Tremblay]

Poutnik <pou...@privacy.net> actually wrote:

> No, OSMAnd and OSMAnd+ are provided by the same developers.

That's certainly not the case with the NewPipe software, where, it appears
that the argument is stronger that some scoundrel copied the Open Source
software and then crippled it, so that they could make money off the
original developer's backs.

In the case of OSMAnd, one would have to ask the developers why they offer,
even today (updated Apr 30, 2017), both a free version of OSMAnd~ and a
payware version of OSMAnd+ that appears to do exactly the same thing.

> User of OSMAnd+ + users of paid live update service
> helps to pay development and high data traffic.

I only assert viable fact, which is that there is a legit version of
OSMAnd~ and a legit version of OSMAnd+, which you assert (and I believe)
are both from the same developer, where both appear to be the same product,
and where one is free while the other costs money.

Do you discount anything said in the sentence above?

> And no, you cannot always find required combination of functionalities
> in free solutions.

In the case of OSMAnd~ and OSMAnd+, are you stating that there is a
meaningful functional difference in what they do?

If so, what?

[Roy Tremblay]

Roy Tremblay <rmbla...@nlnet.nl> actually wrote:

> There's a discussion about the contour lines in that free version:
> https://forum.f-droid.org/t/osmand-contour-lines-and-hillsides-plugin/649

For the record, I decided to test contour line capability of the open
source freeware OSMAnd~ version 2.5.4 that I had, unused, on my Android
phone for a while.

I thought this might show contour lines:
OSMAnd~: Hamburger > Configure map > Map style > Vector renderer > Topo
OSMAnd~: Hamburger > Configure map > Other map attributes > Show contour lines > 16
But, that didn't show any contour lines.

I checked for the presence of the plugin, and it was enabled:
OSMAnd~: Hamburger > Plugins > Countour Lines > Enabled

Then I realized I likely needed to download a special contour map:
OSMAnd~: Hamburger > Download maps > North America > United States of
America > California > Contour lines (408.0MB, Jun 30, 2017)

And maybe even a special shading map:
OSMAnd~: Hamburger > Download maps > North America > United States of
America > California > Hillshades (120.0MB, Mar 22, 2016)

Voila!
Contour lines in the free opensource OSMAnd~ maps, version 2.5.4.

It took some effort, but contour lines are there. For free.
No need to buy them like the original poster said he had to.

That's what I love about this ng!
We can get stuff done together that nobody alone can do on their own!

[Roy Tremblay]

Roy Tremblay <rmbla...@nlnet.nl> actually wrote:

> For the record, I decided to test contour line capability of the open
> source freeware OSMAnd~ version 2.5.4 that I had, unused, on my Android
> phone for a while.

I generally don't update any apps (because bad things can happen over
time), but to help others out, I just updated OSMAnd~ to the latest
version, which is version 2.6.2 (previously I had 2.5.4).

This latest OSMAnd~ version from F-Droid still works just fine to show
contour lines and hillside shading legitimately for free.

That supports the contention that there are 3 versions of OSMAnd, all from
the same developer:

1. OSMAnd (free crippleware)
2. OSMAnd+ (payware to remove the cripples)
3. OSMAnd~ (freeware version of OSMAnd+)

My contention has always been that the cost of freeware is the intelligence
required to find the best ones, and the effort required to test them out.

[Poutnik]

Dne 29/07/2017 v 00:56 Roy Tremblay napsal(a):

> Poutnik <pou...@privacy.net> actually wrote:
>
>> No, OSMAnd and OSMAnd+ are provided by the same developers.

> [...]

> In the case of OSMAnd, one would have to ask the developers why they offer,
> even today (updated Apr 30, 2017), both a free version of OSMAnd~ and a
> payware version of OSMAnd+ that appears to do exactly the same thing.

Paid OSMAnd+ is provided by developers to support development,
payment of computation power to generate maps
and payment for server bandwidth.

Free OSMAnd+ is not provided by developers,
but open sources are taken by 3rd party, compiled and provided for free,
with no need of development effort
nor payment for computation power nor server bandwidth.

No product ( not limited to software ) is free, each cost some price.
It does not matter if this price is or not paid by money,
nor if it is its end user who pays it. They price has to be paid.

>
>> User of OSMAnd+ + users of paid live update service
>> helps to pay development and high data traffic.
>
> I only assert viable fact, which is that there is a legit version of
> OSMAnd~ and a legit version of OSMAnd+, which you assert (and I believe)
> are both from the same developer, where both appear to be the same product,
> and where one is free while the other costs money.

It was reasoned above. the same developer, the different providers.

>
>> And no, you cannot always find required combination of functionalities
>> in free solutions.
>
> In the case of OSMAnd~ and OSMAnd+, are you stating that there is a
> meaningful functional difference in what they do?
>

You could easily notice it was general statement, not specific to OSMAnd*.

"you cannot always find" means sometimes you can,like for OSMAnd,
sometimes you cannot.

[Poutnik]

Dne 29/07/2017 v 07:13 Roy Tremblay napsal(a):

> That supports the contention that there are 3 versions of OSMAnd, all from
> the same developer:
>
> 1. OSMAnd (free crippleware)
> 2. OSMAnd+ (payware to remove the cripples)
> 3. OSMAnd~ (freeware version of OSMAnd+)
>
> My contention has always been that the cost of freeware is the intelligence
> required to find the best ones, and the effort required to test them out.

OSMAnd is far from being crippleware.

OSMAnd is very specific case.
Payware usually does not expose
its source code for others to compile it,
providing binaries for free.

[s|b]

On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 05:13:03 +0000 (UTC), Roy Tremblay wrote:

> My contention has always been that the cost of freeware is the intelligence
> required to find the best ones, and the effort required to test them out.

You realize your talking to yourself, right?

--
s|b

[Roy Tremblay]

Poutnik <pou...@privacy.net> actually wrote:

> Free OSMAnd+ is not provided by developers,
> but open sources are taken by 3rd party, compiled and provided for free,
> with no need of development effort
> nor payment for computation power nor server bandwidth.

The OSMAnd~ source code is "built and signed" by F-Droid to be this source:
https://f-droid.org/repo/net.osmand.plus_263_src.tar.gz

So we need to look more closely as the source code itself, and why the
developers released it as open source code under GNU license.

I don't know for a fact that the OSMAnd(+ & ~) developers copied other
people's open source software to create OSMAnd(+ & ~) but it's a fair guess
that they did, which is a fair guess as to why they released it as open
source software which anyone can pick up under GNU licensing provisions.
https://f-droid.org/packages/net.osmand.plus/

The canonical site for OSMAnd appears to be not F-Droid nor Google Play,
but here:
http://osmand.net/

The project's main authors appear to be:
Victor Shcherb ¡V all parts of the project, originator
Alexey Pelykh ¡V rendering and core parts
Hardy Mueller ¡V main parts of the project, mostly rendering, UI
Pavol Zibrita ¡V first contributor and developer of some utilities

They have an FAQ here:
http://osmand.net/help-online

And a Google Group here:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/osmand

The source code is here:
https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand

Anyone can donate BitCoins to their efforts here:
https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand

Their (mostly GPLv3) licensing is described here:
https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand/blob/master/LICENSE
"This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify
it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or
(at your option) any later version."

And, in general, here:
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.0/legalcode
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html

But in specifics, here's what the OSMAnd team says:
"OsmAnd source code is open and is protected by the GNU GENERAL PUBLIC
LICENSE, Version 3 with an exception. The basic rights it provides are the
following: you can run the application for any purpose, you have the
freedom to view the application's source code, study the way the app works
and change that source code, and you can freely distribute the source code
of the application or its changed versions.

However, you are obliged to ensure free access to the code you produced if
you change the OsmAnd source code and distribute the results of your work.
Also, the visual elements of OsmAnd application are protected by the
Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 2.0 Generic (CC
BY-NC-ND 2.0) that eliminates any possibility of derivatives upon those
elements and you must ensure compliance with that license."

To clarify more, I just moments ago sent an email asking for clarification
of what the developers think about this discussion to:
Email: sup...@osmand.net

[Roy Tremblay]

Poutnik <pou...@privacy.net> actually wrote:

> OSMAnd is far from being crippleware.
>
> OSMAnd is very specific case.
> Payware usually does not expose
> its source code for others to compile it,
> providing binaries for free.

That term was taken verbatim out of one of the references I already quoted
which described the difference between OSMAnd & OSMAnd~ & OSMAnd+.

Thereofre, since it was a cut-and-paste of existing work, I'm not going to
quibble about a term that is commonly used to describe software that has
features turned off which can be turned back on by payment.

So you can call OSMAnd whatever you want (versus OSMAnd(+ & ~).

I think the end result is that we've conclusively determined what the
license is for the OSMAnd(~ & +) source code, which is the following:

"OsmAnd source code is open and is protected by the GNU GENERAL PUBLIC
LICENSE, Version 3 with an exception. The basic rights it provides are the
following: you can run the application for any purpose, you have the
freedom to view the application's source code, study the way the app works
and change that source code, and you can freely distribute the source code
of the application or its changed versions.

However, you are obliged to ensure free access to the code you produced if
you change the OsmAnd source code and distribute the results of your work.
Also, the visual elements of OsmAnd application are protected by the
Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 2.0 Generic (CC
BY-NC-ND 2.0) that eliminates any possibility of derivatives upon those
elements and you must ensure compliance with that license."

I think this thread has conclusively described for people like Carlos E.R.
(who prompted the initial question in another thread) what the functional
difference is between:
OSMAnd+ (paid, functionally the same as OSMAnd~)
OSMAnd~ (free, functionally the same as OSMAnd+)
OSMAnd (free, some functionality of OSMAnd(+ & ~) has been removed)

[Roy Tremblay]

s|b <m...@privacy.invalid> actually wrote:

> You realize your talking to yourself, right?

Look closely at the signature of Poutnik and ask yourself why you are
utterly incapable of adding even one iota of technical value to any Android
discussion you participate in.

What do you think is the reason you prove time and time again that your
posts are devoid of any technical value of worth to an intelligent reader?

[s|b]

On Sat, 29 Jul 2017 17:18:51 +0000 (UTC), Roy Tremblay wrote:

> Look closely at the signature of Poutnik and ask yourself why you are
> utterly incapable of adding even one iota of technical value to any Android
> discussion you participate in.
>
> What do you think is the reason you prove time and time again that your
> posts are devoid of any technical value of worth to an intelligent reader?

omg you really _are_ full of yourself, aren't you? Anyway, keep on
biting. For the smartest man in the room you sure are stupid.

--
s|b

[Poutnik]

Dne 29/07/2017 v 18:29 s|b napsal(a):

Nothing strange in it, generally.
Posters frequently attach various P.S. like thoughts
and not always mark them as such.

[Roy Tremblay]

s|b <m...@privacy.invalid> actually wrote:

> omg you really _are_ full of yourself, aren't you? Anyway, keep on
> biting. For the smartest man in the room you sure are stupid.

I love when s|b posts because it reminds me how stupid some people are.

What's sad though, is that primitive people like s|b are allowed to vote
merely when their only accomplishment in life is that of managing to
survive to voting age.

I laugh, and cry, concurrently, at the very thought.

Meanwhile, back on topic, there's a good description of the OSMAnd
varieties over here for people who are able to comprehend detail.
https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/42079/differences-between-osmand-and-osmand

"As of today (24/03/2016), OsmAnd has 3 versions publicly available. This
is possible because OsmAnd is GPL software, and therefore can be freely
compiled and distributed.

1: Developers' free version, crippled to 10 downloads and no Wikipedia capability.
2: Developers' paid version, uncrippled.
3: F-Droid version, uncrippled but has slower updates than the paid version."

[nospam]

In article <olj6oa$kal$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Roy Tremblay

<rmbla...@nlnet.nl> wrote:

> s|b <m...@privacy.invalid> actually wrote:
> > omg you really _are_ full of yourself, aren't you? Anyway, keep on
> > biting. For the smartest man in the room you sure are stupid.
>
> I love when s|b posts because it reminds me how stupid some people are.

such as yourself?

[Roy Tremblay]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> actually wrote:

>> I love when s|b posts because it reminds me how stupid some people are.
>
> such as yourself?

How much technical value did you are s|b contribute to this conversation?

You're both so incomprehensibly stupid that the result of any post that you
write is far worse than worthless in that your every post subtracts value
from the conversation.

Without you, we have contributed to the tribal knowledge here, where, for
example, many people like Carlos E.R. weren't aware that there is a
perfectly useful legit OSMAnd~ that exactly duplicates the major
functionality of OSMAnd+, with the only exception being that OSMAnd+ is
"updated" more frequently.

Even Poutnik contributed to the bombined tribal knowledge by stressing that
OSMAnd+ also contributes to the developer, although my point is just as
valid that if one wishes to contribute, the developer willingly accepts
Bitcoin contributions and gift cards.

Since you are an avid iOS user, one would think that you might be able to
contribute by explaining what's available on iOS, but you won't because
mostly you have shown that you just don't have the intelligence to be able
to contribute to knowledge levels.

It is sad, but every time you post, I realize how utterly stupid people
like you and s|b are where you *can't" add any value to any conversation.

Let's prove it with a trivially simple test for you:
Q: What is the freeware version of OSMAnd+ on iOS?

[nospam]

In article <olkhmn$e6q$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, Roy Tremblay

osmand is just a brand name.
what matters is functionality.

so you say.

[Roy Tremblay]

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> actually wrote:

>> Q: What is the freeware version of OSMAnd+ on iOS?
>
> osmand is just a brand name.
> what matters is functionality.

Heh heh heh ... clever repartee!

I smiled in appreciation of your response, which was meant to be a trap.
Your response shows that you're smarter than I had intimated you were.

Still ... while I know what's the best offline roadmap and topographic map
functionality which exists, for free, on iOS, I doubt you do - unless you
look up my reports from a few years ago.

Such reports are how intelligent people add to the overall group tribal
knowledge, where sometimes, you're in that varsity mix (but the likes of
s|b never seem to be able to make it out of the JV league).

[Poutnik]

Dne 30.7.2017 v 19:26 Roy Tremblay napsal(a):
> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> actually wrote:
>
> [...]

> Still ... while I know what's the best offline roadmap and topographic map
> functionality which exists, for free, on iOS, I doubt you do - unless you
> look up my reports from a few years ago.

> [...]

Being the best is a subjective category,
so it is the best only for you
and the people sharing your priorities.

I have noticed earlier you frequently ignore
the subjective nature of software evaluation.

While for some people is application B
better or at least acceptable alternative to application A,
for others is not.
The price plays only secondary role in that.

[Roy Tremblay]

Poutnik <pou...@privacy.net> actually wrote:

> Being the best is a subjective category,
> so it is the best only for you
> and the people sharing your priorities.

There are two ways to handle the obvious fact that people's tastes are
different.

One is the method you seem to consistently use, which is the "Oh my God,
it's so complicated ... I can't handle the detail! ... There's no way to
handle the problem ... every single human on earth ... all eight billion of
them ... has different preferences ... such that there's no way possible to
choose a good app!"

While I've said quite a few times in this thread alone that your concept is
correct at the bottom level (where every individual and every phone is
unique), my concept is just as correct at the top level.

For you to *consistently* miss that point, means that you lack the ability
to garner detail - but I think you're smart enough to handle the detail -
you're just missing it consistently for some reason (perhaps emotion?).

> I have noticed earlier you frequently ignore
> the subjective nature of software evaluation.

You completely missed that I have, multiple times, said neither of us is
wrong - we're just looking at the same data from two different levels.

At your level, a BMW is completely different functionality than a Mercedes
... whereas at the level I'm looking at it, they're both cars.

Likewise, at your level, each pork belly is different ... whereas at the
level I'm looking at it, they're commodities, just like gasoline is a
commodity.

At your level, every gasoline station is different ... whereas I argue that
gasoline is a commodity despite the Marketeers attempting to make every
gasoline appear to be functionally different to people like you.

How you could have missed the *many* explanations that you're looking at
the problem from a different level, is what boggles my mind. The only
explanation I can put forth for why you consistently miss that is that
you're too emotionally attached to the outcome of the discussion.

> While for some people is application B
> better or at least acceptable alternative to application A,
> for others is not.
> The price plays only secondary role in that.

You appear to know absolutely nothing about these two things:
1. commodities
2. marketing of them

In fact, you seem to be a marketeer's dream because of that ignorance.

To you, it seems, any commodity that can assemble a disjoint set of
essentially arbitrary features, one or two of which are slightly better
than some other app, that, somehow, this classic Marketeer's trick, has
actually undone a thousand years of economic theory, in one fell swoop!

There is a reason I keep bringing up "pork bellies" into this Android
discussion. Apps functionalities are the commodity. It's also why I insist
on removing brand names from the discussion - because the functionality
isn't any different for a pork belly branded as Brand-X or if it's branded
as "Oscar Meyer". It's still a pork belly (although the marketing
department would want you to think otherwise).

Methinks you need to read up on what tricks Marketeers use to try to
convince consumers like you seem to be, that their commodity is a specialty
item.

[Poutnik]

Dne 31.7.2017 v 13:00 Roy Tremblay napsal(a):

> Poutnik <pou...@privacy.net> actually wrote:
>
>> Being the best is a subjective category,
>> so it is the best only for you
>> and the people sharing your priorities.
>
> There are two ways to handle the obvious fact that people's tastes are
> different.
>

There are two ways to handle who diverge a simple post into many ways,
including several personal, irrelevant and mindreading ones.

- making a fool from oneself, trying to discuss with them
- ignoring them

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2017-07-28 22:33, Roy Tremblay wrote:
> The hardest part of freeware is figuring where to get the best.
> So, together, let's clarify for everyone what's available on Android for
> OSMAnd maps (e.g., contour lines).
>
> In another recent thread, it was brought up that there are two versions of
> OSMAnd, namely:
> OSMAnd (which apparently doesn't do contour lines, for free)
> OSMAnd+ (which apparently does do contour lines)
> Where I noted that my Android phone has a freeware version of:
> OSMAnd~ (which I understood to be the payware functionality, for free)

Looking at google play, OSMAnd+ has a price of 7.49€ and needs a plugin
to display contour lines, which costs another 2.39€.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand

Cycling
• You can find cycling paths on the map
• GPS navigation in cycling mode builds your route using cycling paths
• You can see your speed and altitude
• GPX recording option enables you to record your trip and share it
• Via additional plugin you can enable displaying contour lines and
hill-shading


https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus

Bicycle and Pedestrian Features
• Viewing foot, hiking, and bike paths, great for outdoor activities
• Special routing and display modes for bike and pedestrian
• Optional public transport stops (bus, tram, train) including line names
• Optional trip recording to local GPX file or online service
• Optional speed and altitude display
• Display of contour lines and hill-shading (via additional plugin) <==


--
Cheers, Carlos.

[Frank Slootweg]

Roy Tremblay <rmbla...@nlnet.nl> wrote:
> s|b <m...@privacy.invalid> actually wrote:
>
> > omg you really _are_ full of yourself, aren't you? Anyway, keep on
> > biting. For the smartest man in the room you sure are stupid.
>
> I love when s|b posts because it reminds me how stupid some people are.
>
> What's sad though, is that primitive people like s|b are allowed to vote
> merely when their only accomplishment in life is that of managing to
> survive to voting age.
>
> I laugh, and cry, concurrently, at the very thought.

You'd better cry about yourself, because your - often offensive -
speculations have been all over the map and mostly wrong. Doesn't it
suck being an obnoxious pompous twat *and* wrong!?

> Meanwhile, back on topic, there's a good description of the OSMAnd
> varieties over here for people who are able to comprehend detail.
> https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/42079/differences-between-osmand-and-osmand
>
> "As of today (24/03/2016), OsmAnd has 3 versions publicly available. This
> is possible because OsmAnd is GPL software, and therefore can be freely
> compiled and distributed.
>
> 1: Developers' free version, crippled to 10 downloads and no Wikipedia capability.
> 2: Developers' paid version, uncrippled.
> 3: F-Droid version, uncrippled but has slower updates than the paid version."

You *still* haven't delivered any statement from the *real* developers,
namely those at osmand.net. (What happened to your e-mail enquiry? Did
they laugh at you or - more wiser - ignore you?)

But even if we put any value in what StackExchange says, you've proven
that OsmAnd+ and OsmAnd~ are *not* the same and do *not* have the same
features/attributes.

*What* was it again you were trying to prove?

Bye.

[Roy Tremblay]

"Carlos E.R." <robin_...@es.invalid> actually wrote:

> Looking at google play, OSMAnd+ has a price of 7.49€ and needs a plugin
> to display contour lines, which costs another 2.39€.
>
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand
>
> Cycling
> • You can find cycling paths on the map
> • GPS navigation in cycling mode builds your route using cycling paths
> • You can see your speed and altitude
> • GPX recording option enables you to record your trip and share it
> • Via additional plugin you can enable displaying contour lines and
> hill-shading
>
>
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus
>
> Bicycle and Pedestrian Features
> • Viewing foot, hiking, and bike paths, great for outdoor activities
> • Special routing and display modes for bike and pedestrian
> • Optional public transport stops (bus, tram, train) including line names
> • Optional trip recording to local GPX file or online service
> • Optional speed and altitude display
> • Display of contour lines and hill-shading (via additional plugin) <==

Thanks Carlos for bringing these details up so that users can benefit.

I understand that paying 10 Euros to the developers of OSMAnd+ is a
worthwhile endeavor for many people (just as I donate stuff for free to the
local GoodWill thrift stores - so that others may make use of my stuff).

It's good to know that the user on Android can choose either of these two
essentially similar functionalities (the only difference being in the
version of the software).

1. OSMAnd+ (with the 10 Euro additions), or,
2. OSMAnd~ (which is the same thing, but for free)

Either way, the functionality is the same (with the only minor exception
being whatever the latest version might be because F-Droid doesn't update
OSMAnd~ as frequently as OSMAnd+ is updated).

Since my OSMAnd~ was years old, that's not a concern for me, and, anyway,
F-Droid updated OSMAnd~ this year so it's frequent enough for a map app
(the maps are updated on a different schedule than the software,
apparently).

[Roy Tremblay]

Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> actually wrote:

> Doesn't it suck being an obnoxious pompous twat *and* wrong!?

You tell me.

> You *still* haven't delivered any statement from the *real* developers,
> namely those at osmand.net.

Frank. You have the mind of a child.
Specifically, the comprehension of a child.
I already gave you, verbatim, the exact words, from the developers.

When dealing with a child like you, what more do you need to comprehend?

> (What happened to your e-mail enquiry? Did
> they laugh at you or - more wiser - ignore you?)

They wrote back within 24 hours and said that the license information is on
the web page (which I already knew) and that there was zero difference in
functionality, version to version, between OSMAnd~ and OSMAnd+ (the only
real difference being price).

They said they have no control over what other people do with the software,
and as long as those other people follow GPLv3 rules, they're fine with
whatever they do with it.

> But even if we put any value in what StackExchange says, you've proven
> that OsmAnd+ and OsmAnd~ are *not* the same and do *not* have the same
> features/attributes.

Huh? Did you glean absolutely nothing from this discussion?
Nothing?

It's kind of sad that people like you exist.
Please tell me that you don't vote.

> *What* was it again you were trying to prove?

You're such a childish fool that you are trying to "prove" something here.
There's nothing to prove, Frank.

Certainly not to you.

It's so obvious that only a child like you could think that someone is
trying to "prove" something here when the topic is merely to clarify a
fact.

I repeat, since you seem to have the mind of a child, Frank.

The topic is as clear as night and day, despite the fact that your child's
mind can't comprehend even a simple topic.

TOPIC:
Together, let's clarify the difference between OSMAnd, OSMAnd+, & OSMAnd~

I have a question for you Frank.

QUESTION JUST FOR FRANK:
How did you completely misunderstand what the topic is?

[Roy Tremblay]

"Carlos E.R." <robin_...@es.invalid> actually wrote:

> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus

BTW, Carlos,
After detailing with Poutnik, who thinks the topic is his emotional
aversion to freeware, and especially after just now dealing with Frank, who
thinks he needs to *prove* something, I have to come back to you to THANK
YOU for understanding what the topic is, and always was.

You UNDERSTOOD the topic!

The topic was simply to clarify, for everyone, the difference between:
1. OSMAnd, and,
2. OSMAnd+, and,
3. OSMAnd~

Thank you for helping to clarify the difference between OSMAnd and OSMAnd~,
where Poutnik and I clarified the difference between OSMAnd+ and OSMAnd~.

Your response, indicating that you UNDERSTOOD the topic, is a ray of light
in an otherwise dismal tunnel.

Thank you for being both intelligent and helpful (both of which are in
short supply on this newsgroup).

[Frank Slootweg]

Roy Tremblay <rmbla...@nlnet.nl> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> actually wrote:
>
> > Doesn't it suck being an obnoxious pompous twat *and* wrong!?
>
> You tell me.
>
> > You *still* haven't delivered any statement from the *real* developers,
> > namely those at osmand.net.
>
> Frank. You have the mind of a child.
> Specifically, the comprehension of a child.
> I already gave you, verbatim, the exact words, from the developers.

[Cut the 'child'-crap. If anyone is behaving like a child, it's you,
with pathetic tricks like silently snipping the context, continuously
moving the goalposts, lying. etc..]

Nope, you have *NOT* given *any* words from the developers at
*osmand.net* - i.e. the developers of *OsmAnd/OsmAnd+* - about
*OsmAnd~*.

[Pathetic 'insults' deleted.]

> > (What happened to your e-mail enquiry? Did
> > they laugh at you or - more wiser - ignore you?)
>
> They wrote back within 24 hours and said that the license information is on
> the web page (which I already knew) and that there was zero difference in
> functionality, version to version, between OSMAnd~ and OSMAnd+ (the only
> real difference being price).
>
> They said they have no control over what other people do with the software,
> and as long as those other people follow GPLv3 rules, they're fine with
> whatever they do with it.

So why don't you *post* this e-mail when people are asking you for
words from the developers at osmand.net!?

> > But even if we put any value in what StackExchange says, you've proven
> > that OsmAnd+ and OsmAnd~ are *not* the same and do *not* have the same
> > features/attributes.
>
> Huh? Did you glean absolutely nothing from this discussion?
> Nothing?

Getting confirmation that they're *not* the same is "nothing"!? Weird
interpretation of "nothing".

[Pathetic 'insults' deleted.]

> > *What* was it again you were trying to prove?

Translation for nymshifter: That was sarcasm, which turned out to be
sarchasm.

[Pathetic 'insults' deleted.]

> TOPIC:
> Together, let's clarify the difference between OSMAnd, OSMAnd+, & OSMAnd~

And - after a zillion all over the map posts - you have shown that
there *is* a difference. However, you *wanted* to prove that there is
*no* difference at that only 'fools' pay for no difference. So you
created/fell_in your own trap.

QED. HTH. HAND. EOD. NK.

[Frank Slootweg]

Roy Tremblay <rmbla...@nlnet.nl> wrote:
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_...@es.invalid> actually wrote:
>

> > Looking at google play, OSMAnd+ has a price of 7.49??? and needs a plugin
> > to display contour lines, which costs another 2.39???.
> >
> > https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand
> >
> > Cycling
> > ??? You can find cycling paths on the map
> > ??? GPS navigation in cycling mode builds your route using cycling paths
> > ??? You can see your speed and altitude
> > ??? GPX recording option enables you to record your trip and share it
> > ??? Via additional plugin you can enable displaying contour lines and

> > hill-shading
> >
> >
> > https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.osmand.plus
> >
> > Bicycle and Pedestrian Features

> > ??? Viewing foot, hiking, and bike paths, great for outdoor activities
> > ??? Special routing and display modes for bike and pedestrian
> > ??? Optional public transport stops (bus, tram, train) including line names
> > ??? Optional trip recording to local GPX file or online service
> > ??? Optional speed and altitude display
> > ??? Display of contour lines and hill-shading (via additional plugin) <==

>
> Thanks Carlos for bringing these details up so that users can benefit.
>
> I understand that paying 10 Euros to the developers of OSMAnd+ is a
> worthwhile endeavor for many people (just as I donate stuff for free to the
> local GoodWill thrift stores - so that others may make use of my stuff).

Thanks for finally acknowledging the needs/wants/choices/<whatever>
of others, instead of calling them fools (and worse)!

Minor nit: As Carlos wrote, OsmAnd+ is 7.49 Euros, the 2.39 is for the
extra Contour plugin, which just happened to be the thing which
triggered this 'discussion', but which most people probably don't need.

> It's good to know that the user on Android can choose either of these two
> essentially similar functionalities (the only difference being in the
> version of the software).
>
> 1. OSMAnd+ (with the 10 Euro additions), or,
> 2. OSMAnd~ (which is the same thing, but for free)
>
> Either way, the functionality is the same (with the only minor exception
> being whatever the latest version might be because F-Droid doesn't update
> OSMAnd~ as frequently as OSMAnd+ is updated).

Well, OsmAnd+ also includes support from the people at osmand.net.
OsmAnd~ doesn't/can't come with such support, because they didn't write
(nor modify?) the code.

What has not been mentioned is if there is any difference in frequency
of map updates or/and the way they are provided, announced, etc..

> Since my OSMAnd~ was years old, that's not a concern for me, and, anyway,
> F-Droid updated OSMAnd~ this year so it's frequent enough for a map app
> (the maps are updated on a different schedule than the software,
> apparently).

So for *you* the frequency of updates is not important, but for
*others*, it may well be. *That*, *personal* needs/wants/choices/
preferences/<whatever> was and is all we were and are trying to get
accross. Glad it finally sunk in.

(AFAIC,) EOD.

[Roy Tremblay]

Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> actually wrote:

> Thanks for finally acknowledging the needs/wants/choices/<whatever>
> of others, instead of calling them fools (and worse)!

Frank,
You will notice something about me, which is that I respond in the tone of
the person whom I'm responding to.

Positive or negative.

I take on your tone, where my tone is *always* positive, until and unless
your tone is negative.

I have something like four or five thousand threads on Usenet overall, over
the years, and that means over ten thousand posts on Usenet, and every one
of them follows this golden rule.

As a positive example, witness your recent post on the Windows 10 newsgroup
on the flakiness of the Windows 10 File Explorer, where there isn't a hint
of negativity on your side ... hence ... not a hint of negativity on mine.

If you look at *any* post I've ever made, you'll see that I take on the
tone of the person who posted.

So if you see negativity in my response to you, you will first see that
negativity in your initial interaction with me.

I know this without even looking back at the record because it's the ONLY
way I respond to people.

You punch me in the nose, I punch back.
You shake my hand, I shake back.

The tone of my response is ALWAYS determined by you.

> Minor nit: As Carlos wrote, OsmAnd+ is 7.49 Euros, the 2.39 is for the
> extra Contour plugin, which just happened to be the thing which
> triggered this 'discussion', but which most people probably don't need.

Thank you Frank for making that clarification for others, since, at this
point, we want this discussion to be a record for future searches on:
http://tinyurl.com/comp-mobile-android

> Well, OsmAnd+ also includes support from the people at osmand.net.
> OsmAnd~ doesn't/can't come with such support, because they didn't write
> (nor modify?) the code.

Technically, Frank, you are correct, however I will clarify two points, but
this is a nit pick just for the record, as it doesn't change anything
functionally useful.

1. OSMAnd+ and OSMAnd~ code is (essentially) exactly the same source code,
so, the makers of OSMAnd+ did write the source code for OSMAnd~ (they just
didn't compile and package and release OSMAnd~).

2. In the USA, the OSMAnd(+ & ~) solution is substandard in accuracy to
USGS maps, so, the whole "support" issue is moot, but if "support" is super
critical to people, by all means, donate to the OSMAnd+ effort.

Notice that I'm not saying the OSMAnd(+ & ~) app itself is substandard; I'm
saying the underlying OSM contour database, for the USA, is substandard to
the USGS contour database.

> What has not been mentioned is if there is any difference in frequency
> of map updates or/and the way they are provided, announced, etc.

As I had explained to Poutnik, there will always be minor differences
between individual pork bellies, which Oscar Meyer will try to exploit with
a brand-conscious consumer, saying that Oscar Meyer pork bellies are
updated more frequently than are Brand X pork bellies .... however ... a
commodity is a commodity is a commodity.

It's like with gasoline stations where the only real difference between
brands are the outlandish claims by their Marketing departments.

Same here.

If people are really that tuned to the exact subversion of their map app,
then this general discussion on the difference between the two products is
well below their capabilities.

As I said to Poutnik, it's like the difference between 0.506127 & 0.506.
Is that meaningful?

Yes, sometimes. Rarely. But sometimes it is meaningful.
But most of the time, it's not.

If it is meaningful, to you, then, by all means, pay for it.

> So for *you* the frequency of updates is not important, but for
> *others*, it may well be. *That*, *personal* needs/wants/choices/
> preferences/<whatever> was and is all we were and are trying to get
> accross. Glad it finally sunk in.

Frank. Look at what you just wrote.
Do you see how you're trying to "prove a point"?
Do you feel your emotions in trying to "assert your point?"

Now think about it.
Did I ever say that every pork belly was exactly the same?
Did I?

Did I ever say that 0.506127 & 0.506 are exactly the same?
Did I?

Did I ever say that OSMAnd+ and OSMAnd~ are exactly the same?
Did I?

I knew of the subversion difference.
It's like the difference between 0.506127 & 0.506 to me.

If, to you, the differences between 0.506127 & 0.506 are extremely
significant, then by all means, nobody is stopping you from paying for that
difference.

In summary, if, to you, the differences between OSMAnd+ & OSMAnd~ are
extremely significant, then by all means, nobody is stopping you from
paying for that difference.

[Frank Slootweg]

Roy Tremblay <rmbla...@nlnet.nl> wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> actually wrote:

[Lots deleted.]

> > Well, OsmAnd+ also includes support from the people at osmand.net.
> > OsmAnd~ doesn't/can't come with such support, because they didn't write
> > (nor modify?) the code.
>
> Technically, Frank, you are correct, however I will clarify two points, but
> this is a nit pick just for the record, as it doesn't change anything
> functionally useful.
>
> 1. OSMAnd+ and OSMAnd~ code is (essentially) exactly the same source code,
> so, the makers of OSMAnd+ did write the source code for OSMAnd~ (they just
> didn't compile and package and release OSMAnd~).

Yes, but the Fdroid packagers don't *support* the code. The osmand.net
people do.

> 2. In the USA, the OSMAnd(+ & ~) solution is substandard in accuracy to
> USGS maps, so, the whole "support" issue is moot, but if "support" is super
> critical to people, by all means, donate to the OSMAnd+ effort.
>
> Notice that I'm not saying the OSMAnd(+ & ~) app itself is substandard; I'm
> saying the underlying OSM contour database, for the USA, is substandard to
> the USGS contour database.

Again too much emphasis on the Contour plugin (and maps). That is just
a niche area of OsmAnd (and similar products). The discussion was about
OsmAnd in general.

But yes, the maps are - on average - of lower 'quality' than non-open
maps. I.e. the choice is between OpenStreetMaps maps and other maps, not
between OsmAnd and some other GPS navigation app.

FWIW, I use both OSM maps and commercial maps (by Tom Tom). Both have
their advantages and disadvantages. (Sounds familiar? :-)).

> > What has not been mentioned is if there is any difference in frequency
> > of map updates or/and the way they are provided, announced, etc.
>
> As I had explained to Poutnik, there will always be minor differences
> between individual pork bellies, which Oscar Meyer will try to exploit with
> a brand-conscious consumer, saying that Oscar Meyer pork bellies are
> updated more frequently than are Brand X pork bellies .... however ... a
> commodity is a commodity is a commodity.

Note that here I was talking about *map* updates, not app updates. For
maps, there can be very important differences between different versions
of the same map. I.e. the pork-belly analogy doesn't fly. (Not that it
ever did.)

[...]

> > So for *you* the frequency of updates is not important, but for
> > *others*, it may well be. *That*, *personal* needs/wants/choices/
> > preferences/<whatever> was and is all we were and are trying to get
> > accross. Glad it finally sunk in.

[You - again - proving my point, deleted.]

[Frank Slootweg]

I think that's just not true. And I'm sure that many/most in this
group also think it's not true.

The tone of your response is nearly always determined by whether or
not you like the essence of a poster's message.

If the poster agrees with you or you agree with what the poster says,
then everything is fine.

But if you don't like (the essence of) the poster's message, you go in
attack-mode and shoot the messenger by belittling, offending and every
other 'trick' in your book. After that, things go downhill fast. Things
only turn around for the better if your opponent - i.e. *not* you -
offers an olive branch.

Just think about it. No need to respond, because that will just lead
to more aggro.