Ridiculously expensive Apple USB-C Thunderbolt 4 cable!

[Alan Browne]

Or - maybe it's actually really cheap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD5aAd8Oy84&ab_channel=AdamSavage%E2%80%99sTested

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

[Larry Wolff]

On 11/5/2023 11:18 PM, Alan Browne wrote:

> Or - maybe it's actually really cheap:

Why are we being trolled by these Apple trolls in the Android newsgroup?
They seem to be afraid of the world wide dominance of Android over Apple.

[Alan Browne]

It's quite the opposite. There is quite a hue and cry over the cost of
Apple TB 4 cables. The linked video shows what goes into such a cable
and then one wonders not why it's so expensive - but rather why it is so
cheap.

"world wide dominance of Android over Apple."

<chuckle> thanks for lightening up an otherwise dull Sunday afternoon...
ah well, bit of yard work to attend to...

[Andy Burns]

Alan Browne wrote:

> There is quite a hue and cry over the cost of Apple TB 4 cables.  The
> linked video shows what goes into such a cable and then one wonders not
> why it's so expensive - but rather why it is so cheap.

I had watched that video before it was posted here, and yes the quality
of the cable does look very good, but I wonder whether that is truly
necessary for "normal" lengths, or just the 2-3 metre flavour? Or maybe
it's just cable pr0n?

I have a TB4 laptop, connected to a dock providing 98W of power, a 4k
monitor, a 2.5k monitor, 2.5Gbps ethernet, external backup drive,
camera, keyboard/mouse/kvm switch and plenty of USB ports, all over the
2ft type-C cable that came with the dock, and no issues ... I don't
believe I've ever tried a non-TB cable to see how well that does.

[Alan Browne]

More length certainly makes it harder at 40 Gb/s.

There may also be issues regarding signal and noise that Apple wants to
achieve that are excessive in practice but more reliable than being too
close to threshold levels.

[Alan Browne]

Also the longest TB 4 cable from Apple is 3m in length ...

[Your Name]

It's the other way around ... the know-nothing anti-Apple trolls
crosspost their inane nonsense to the iPhone newsgroup. The problem is
there are then some fools in both newsgroups that keep replying to the
braindead trolls, which only encourages them. :-(

[Jolly Roger]

On 2023-11-05, Andy Burns <use...@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Alan Browne wrote:
>
>> There is quite a hue and cry over the cost of Apple TB 4 cables.  The
>> linked video shows what goes into such a cable and then one wonders
>> not why it's so expensive - but rather why it is so cheap.
>
> I had watched that video before it was posted here, and yes the
> quality of the cable does look very good, but I wonder whether that is
> truly necessary for "normal" lengths, or just the 2-3 metre flavour?
> Or maybe it's just cable pr0n?

Ah. So "not needed" and "nobody wants it" then? Ironic...

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[Larry Wolff]

On 11/6/2023 4:14 AM, Your Name wrote:

>>> Or - maybe it's actually really cheap:
>>
>> Why are we being trolled by these Apple trolls in the Android newsgroup?
>> They seem to be afraid of the world wide dominance of Android over Apple.
>
> It's the other way around ... the know-nothing anti-Apple trolls
> crosspost their inane nonsense to the iPhone newsgroup. The problem is
> there are then some fools in both newsgroups that keep replying to the
> braindead trolls, which only encourages them

Maybe you needed to look at what posted this thread before you spoke?
It goes by the name of Alan Browne and it has never posted Android info.

It has probably never used an Android phone so why is it posting here?
It trolls because it doesn't like that Android controls the world market.

[Alan Browne]

On 2023-11-06 00:09, Larry Wolff wrote:
> Maybe you needed to look at what posted this thread before you spoke?
> It goes by the name of Alan Browne and it has never posted Android info.
>
> It has probably never used an Android phone so why is it posting here?
> It trolls because it doesn't like that Android controls the world market.

Not a troll, just some fact so the Apple haters will understand what
quality is, and why it costs more.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-11-06 13:54, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-11-06 00:09, Larry Wolff wrote:
>> Maybe you needed to look at what posted this thread before you spoke?
>> It goes by the name of Alan Browne and it has never posted Android info.
>>
>> It has probably never used an Android phone so why is it posting here?
>> It trolls because it doesn't like that Android controls the world market.
>
> Not a troll, just some fact so the Apple haters will understand what
> quality is, and why it costs more.

Nevertheless, it is a fact that globally, Android sells more than Apple;
the world is not the USA.

<https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&q=world+sales+of+Android+vs+Apple>

About 204,000,000 results (0.41 seconds)

According to StatCounter, the Android mobile operating system holds the
largest market share of 70.77% globally, as of August 2023. iOS, on the
other hand, holds a global market share of 28.52%, as of August 2023.Sep
9, 2023

iOS vs Android Market Share by Country - Yahoo Finance
Yahoo Finance
https://finance.yahoo.com › news › ios-vs-android-mark...





--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan Browne]

On 2023-11-06 08:12, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-11-06 13:54, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-11-06 00:09, Larry Wolff wrote:
>>> Maybe you needed to look at what posted this thread before you spoke?
>>> It goes by the name of Alan Browne and it has never posted Android info.
>>>
>>> It has probably never used an Android phone so why is it posting here?
>>> It trolls because it doesn't like that Android controls the world
>>> market.
>>
>> Not a troll, just some fact so the Apple haters will understand what
>> quality is, and why it costs more.
>
> Nevertheless, it is a fact that globally, Android sells more than Apple;
> the world is not the USA.

I wasn't discussing sales figures, only the reason why quality has a
price (or rather that video shows why).

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-11-06 14:21, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2023-11-06 08:12, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-11-06 13:54, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-06 00:09, Larry Wolff wrote:
>>>> Maybe you needed to look at what posted this thread before you spoke?
>>>> It goes by the name of Alan Browne and it has never posted Android
>>>> info.
>>>>
>>>> It has probably never used an Android phone so why is it posting here?
>>>> It trolls because it doesn't like that Android controls the world
>>>> market.
>>>
>>> Not a troll, just some fact so the Apple haters will understand what
>>> quality is, and why it costs more.
>>
>> Nevertheless, it is a fact that globally, Android sells more than
>> Apple; the world is not the USA.
>
> I wasn't discussing sales figures, only the reason why quality has a
> price (or rather that video shows why).

Which doesn't relate to the phrase "Android controls the world market".
Apples to oranges :-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan]

On 2023-11-06 05:12, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-11-06 13:54, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2023-11-06 00:09, Larry Wolff wrote:
>>> Maybe you needed to look at what posted this thread before you spoke?
>>> It goes by the name of Alan Browne and it has never posted Android info.
>>>
>>> It has probably never used an Android phone so why is it posting here?
>>> It trolls because it doesn't like that Android controls the world
>>> market.
>>
>> Not a troll, just some fact so the Apple haters will understand what
>> quality is, and why it costs more.
>
> Nevertheless, it is a fact that globally, Android sells more than Apple;
> the world is not the USA.

Only because they sell to a market Apple doesn't sell to.

[Carlos E. R.]

But it does... Apple sells here. Much less than Android, but they sell.


<https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&q=porcentaje+de+mercado+de+Apple+vs+Android+en+espa%C3%B1a>

About 5,280,000 results (0.41 seconds)

¿Y cómo queda España? Pues según StatCounter, en marzo de 2023 el 77%
del mercado fue de Android y el 21% de iOS.Apr 4, 2023

El mapa que muestra si se usa más Android o iOS: así queda ...
Xataka Móvil
https://www.xatakamovil.com › mercado › mapa-que-m...


Translated:

And what about Spain? According to StatCounter, in March 2023, 77% of
the market was Android and 21% iOS.Apr 4, 2023

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan Browne]

That wasn't at all the point of the posting. The point was about the
cost/price of high bandwidth TB 4 cables. Because some weak minded
troll tries to steer the subject else where is his problem. Ooops: You
fell for it too! Poor lad. Try to focus next time. You can do it!

I will entertain you with the following perspective, nonetheless:

Android does not control the world market. It is an OS that many
companies use because it is free and Google pick up the gross tab on
maintaining it - royalty free.

In the meantime, Google pays Apple about $18B per year for the privilege
of being the default search engine on Apple products - something the
users can change in about 20 seconds - but most don't due to ignorance
or apathy[1].

And that $18B is more than most Android phone makers make in sales alone.

So while Android phones do indeed outnumber iPhone, and only Samsung is
really on top there; we all know it was iPhone that ignited the current
era smartphone that all other had to imitate or die (Blackberry for
example).

OTOH, I'd far rather have shares in Apple than any other smartphone makers.

[1]
Bob: "What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?"
Don: "I don't know - and I don't care!"

[Alan]

On 2023-11-06 09:48, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-11-06 18:38, Alan wrote:
>> On 2023-11-06 05:12, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-06 13:54, Alan Browne wrote:
>>>> On 2023-11-06 00:09, Larry Wolff wrote:
>>>>> Maybe you needed to look at what posted this thread before you spoke?
>>>>> It goes by the name of Alan Browne and it has never posted Android
>>>>> info.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has probably never used an Android phone so why is it posting here?
>>>>> It trolls because it doesn't like that Android controls the world
>>>>> market.
>>>>
>>>> Not a troll, just some fact so the Apple haters will understand what
>>>> quality is, and why it costs more.
>>>
>>> Nevertheless, it is a fact that globally, Android sells more than
>>> Apple; the world is not the USA.
>>
>> Only because they sell to a market Apple doesn't sell to.
>
> But it does... Apple sells here. Much less than Android, but they sell.

The market Apple doesn't sell into is entry-level phones, Sunshine.

>
>
> <https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-e&q=porcentaje+de+mercado+de+Apple+vs+Android+en+espa%C3%B1a>
>
> About 5,280,000 results (0.41 seconds)
>
> ¿Y cómo queda España? Pues según StatCounter, en marzo de 2023 el 77%
> del mercado fue de Android y el 21% de iOS.Apr 4, 2023
>
> El mapa que muestra si se usa más Android o iOS: así queda ...
> Xataka Móvil
> https://www.xatakamovil.com › mercado › mapa-que-m...
>
>
> Translated:
>
> And what about Spain? According to StatCounter, in March 2023, 77% of
> the market was Android and 21% iOS.Apr 4, 2023

Because you can buy cheap Androids.

[Andy Burns]

Andy Burns wrote:

> I don't believe I've ever tried a non-TB cable to see how well that does.

I have now, using a type-C cable, full 24 pins, originally supplied with
a USB3.x NVMe enclosure

It did supply power, but didn't function as a thunderbolt connection at
all, even though passive cables up to 0.5m are supposedly allowed.

[Your Name]

Of course Android has a bigger market share than iOS ... because there
are "60" Android phone manufacturers with numerous different models,
but only 1 iOS phone manufacturer with about five different models. The
Android makers also have lots of low-end cheap garbage (some using 10
year old tech) while Apple concentrates on the higher-end of the market.

The same happens if you compare Ford with Ferrari, or numerous other
1-to-many / low-to-high comparisons.

[Carlos E. R.]

Wrong comparison. Android also sells phones more expensive than Apple.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Your Name]

If you actually want a mobile phone comparison that is a bit better
1-to-1, you need to look at Apple vs Samsung (although Samsung does
make lower-end phones as well, so it is still a little lop-sided).

In terms of global market share, in October 2023, Apple had 29.67%
while Samsung had 24.67%.

In terms of sales, until Q1 2023, globally, the iPhone was outselling
Samsung's phones. It was only with those Q1 23023 figures that Samsung
took the lead - partly because Samsung had just released new models and
many iPhone fans would have been waiting for the upcoming model before
buying.

As always, it also depends on which statistics you want to believe.

[Carlos E. R.]

No, that's not a fair comparison either, because Apple has no "internal"
competition, while Samsung has a lot of competition (from other makers
making Android phones).

> In terms of global market share, in October 2023, Apple had 29.67% while
> Samsung had 24.67%.
>
> In terms of sales, until Q1 2023, globally, the iPhone was outselling
> Samsung's phones. It was only with those Q1 23023 figures that Samsung
> took the lead - partly because Samsung had just released new models and
> many iPhone fans would have been waiting for the upcoming model before
> buying.
>
> As always, it also depends on which statistics you want to believe.
>
>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan]

On 2023-11-06 13:22, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Are you high?

Seriously, are you on drugs or perhaps just drunk?

You need to compare LIKE to LIKE.

Apple doesn't sell cheap phones.

[Carlos E. R.]

Fanboy, do you insult everybody you are talking with, taking chats
against Apple as a personal insult?

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Arno Welzel]

Carlos E. R., 2023-11-06 22:22:

> On 2023-11-06 21:42, Your Name wrote:
>> On 2023-11-06 13:12:55 +0000, Carlos E. R. said:

[...]

>> Of course Android has a bigger market share than iOS ... because there
>> are "60" Android phone manufacturers with numerous different models, but
>> only 1 iOS phone manufacturer with about five different models. The
>> Android makers also have lots of low-end cheap garbage (some using 10
>> year old tech) while Apple concentrates on the higher-end of the market.
>>
>> The same happens if you compare Ford with Ferrari, or numerous other
>> 1-to-many / low-to-high comparisons.
>
> Wrong comparison. Android also sells phones more expensive than Apple.

It makes little sense compare a *vendor* like Apple with an *OS* like
Android. If Apple would license iOS to other vendors, the market share
of iOS would also increase. However Apple also don't want to give up
full control over the hardware, therefore they don't do this.

As of Q2 2023:

Samsung: 20%
Apple: 17%
Xiaomi: 12%

But these numbers change over time. In Q4 2022, Apple had 22% and
Samsung only 17% global smartphone market share and the positions are
not continously developing in one or another direction - they tend to
change forth and back.

--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

[Alan]

Nope.

>
> Seriously, are you on drugs or perhaps just drunk?

Nope.

>
> Fanboy, do you insult everybody you are talking with, taking chats
> against Apple as a personal insult?

Anti-fanboy, why can't you just acknowledge the obvious.

Apple doesn't sell low-end phones.

[Alan Browne]

On 2023-11-07 09:04, Arno Welzel wrote:

> It makes little sense compare a *vendor* like Apple with an *OS* like
> Android. If Apple would license iOS to other vendors, the market share
> of iOS would also increase. However Apple also don't want to give up
> full control over the hardware, therefore they don't do this.
>
> As of Q2 2023:
>
> Samsung: 20%
> Apple: 17%
> Xiaomi: 12%
>
> But these numbers change over time. In Q4 2022, Apple had 22% and
> Samsung only 17% global smartphone market share and the positions are
> not continously developing in one or another direction - they tend to
> change forth and back.

Those adept in statistics and calculus will likely recall college
classes where optimizing return does not mean having the largest market
share. Given Samsung's competition (which is not head-on Apple), they
have to produce lower value, lower margin smart phones as well as
flagships while going head to head with their Android peers. Thinner
margins result.

That said, Apple's objective is not to make the most money but to make
the most of the offerings that appeal to people and integrate well in
the Apple "ecosphere" - something no other company can come close to.

Android is a blessing to all these companies as the entire OS is public
domain. Google does the heavy lifting for them - and pays Apple a
whopping $18B to be the default browser on Apple devices.

[Arno Welzel]

Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 17:22:

[...]

> That said, Apple's objective is not to make the most money but to make
> the most of the offerings that appeal to people and integrate well in
> the Apple "ecosphere" - something no other company can come close to.

Steve Jobs never wanted to have "open" systems which can be easily
modified by the users since he was also a kind of control freak. And
this philosophy is still true. A macBook and iPhone is not a device you
can easily repair and Apple actively tries to prevent independent repair
shops.

Also see Louis Rossmann on this:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIFQC8iA65k>

When the Apple II was developed, Wozniak and Jobs had an argument about
the fact, that Wozniak wanted to have a case for the computer which can
easily be opened and slots for expansion cards. Later Wozniak left Apple
because he did not like the direction the company went.

This is one of the major reasons why I would never buy an Apple device.
I got an iPhone SE I got from my employer - but that's it. Personally I
always used Android devices nearly as soon as they got available and
I've been maintaining apps for Android for more than 10 years now, also
open source stuff (for example <https://github.com/arnowelzel/periodical>).

> Android is a blessing to all these companies as the entire OS is public
> domain. Google does the heavy lifting for them - and pays Apple a
> whopping $18B to be the default browser on Apple devices.

It is not not the default browser - Google pays apple to be the default
search engine. The default browser on Apple devices is still Safari
which was originally based on WebKit.

Also see:
<https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/26/23933206/google-apple-search-deal-safari-18-billion>

And if people want to, they still can get Chrome on their iPhones or as
well: <https://apps.apple.com/de/app/google-chrome/id535886823>

[Alan Browne]

On 2023-11-07 14:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 17:22:
>
> [...]
>> That said, Apple's objective is not to make the most money but to make
>> the most of the offerings that appeal to people and integrate well in
>> the Apple "ecosphere" - something no other company can come close to.
>
> Steve Jobs never wanted to have "open" systems which can be easily

<Classic reactive pulp snipped (ie we've heard it all before)>

The philosophy was always oriented to the user experience.

The integration within and between Apple devices is unparalleled - that
is what this approach brings.

Personally I've repaired and upgraded a couple iMacs (and upgraded their
innards) on several occasions. Same with Mac Mini. Indeed, after I
migrate off of this 11 year old one, I will probably give it a new SSD,
perhaps as much as 8 GB and put it in a closet somewhere as a server of
some sort.

I've had this iMac for 11 years - reliable[1] and fast as ever and does
near everything I need .... except it is very slow in rendering higher
res video - hence a new iMac will be arriving today.

> It is not not the default browser - Google pays apple to be the default
> search engine. The default browser on Apple devices is still Safari

Quite right - I screwed up the search part.

This doesn't negate what Google forks over for a privilege that a user
can undo in a few seconds.

[1] Actually the WiFi began dying this summer and is now completely caput.

[Your Name]

On 2023-11-07 14:04:00 +0000, Arno Welzel said:

> Carlos E. R., 2023-11-06 22:22:
>
>> On 2023-11-06 21:42, Your Name wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-06 13:12:55 +0000, Carlos E. R. said:
> [...]
>>> Of course Android has a bigger market share than iOS ... because there
>>> are "60" Android phone manufacturers with numerous different models, but
>>> only 1 iOS phone manufacturer with about five different models. The
>>> Android makers also have lots of low-end cheap garbage (some using 10
>>> year old tech) while Apple concentrates on the higher-end of the market.
>>>
>>> The same happens if you compare Ford with Ferrari, or numerous other
>>> 1-to-many / low-to-high comparisons.
>>
>> Wrong comparison. Android also sells phones more expensive than Apple.
>
> It makes little sense compare a *vendor* like Apple with an *OS* like
> Android. If Apple would license iOS to other vendors, the market share
> of iOS would also increase. However Apple also don't want to give up
> full control over the hardware, therefore they don't do this.

Since Apple is the only one making iOS devices, the two words become
interchangable when talking about mobile phone operating systems.

> As of Q2 2023:
>
> Samsung: 20%
> Apple: 17%
> Xiaomi: 12%
>
> But these numbers change over time. In Q4 2022, Apple had 22% and
> Samsung only 17% global smartphone market share and the positions are
> not continously developing in one or another direction - they tend to
> change forth and back.

Partly because Samsung tends to release new models in the first
quarter, while Apple tends to release new models in the third quarter.
Just before those times, sales will drop off as people wait. Just after
those times sales rise as people buy the latest new toy.

[Arno Welzel]

Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 20:24:

> On 2023-11-07 14:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 17:22:
>>
>> [...]
>>> That said, Apple's objective is not to make the most money but to make
>>> the most of the offerings that appeal to people and integrate well in
>>> the Apple "ecosphere" - something no other company can come close to.
>>
>> Steve Jobs never wanted to have "open" systems which can be easily
>
> <Classic reactive pulp snipped (ie we've heard it all before)>
>
> The philosophy was always oriented to the user experience.

Well - the user experience may also include the ability to modify a
computer to your personal needs by adding additional memory or replacing
the storage with a bigger one.

> The integration within and between Apple devices is unparalleled - that
> is what this approach brings.

Yes - but with the disadvantage that you as a user can change little or
nothing in the hardware. For smartphones this is the accepted standard -
eventhough some people complain about the lack of a slot for MicroSD
cards to expand storage in a cheap and easy way or the lack of easy
replacable batteries. This is where products like Fairphone fill a gap.
If no one would like to have this, no one would buy such products.

> Personally I've repaired and upgraded a couple iMacs (and upgraded their
> innards) on several occasions. Same with Mac Mini. Indeed, after I
> migrate off of this 11 year old one, I will probably give it a new SSD,
> perhaps as much as 8 GB and put it in a closet somewhere as a server of
> some sort.

Yes, with a 10 or 11 year old device you still can do repairs. But *new*
macs and macbooks are not the same any longer. See the video by Louis
Rossman I have posted. Current models are *not* repairable that easy any
longer and iFixit does not even contain any repair guides for current
models since it makes no sense any longer to try that on your own.

And no, this has nothing to do with "user experience". It is just
keeping control over the hardware and avoiding independent repair shops
being able to do cheap repairs. As a customer you are now forced to go
to Apple if you have any problem with your hardware since many parts
contain serial numbers which are checked by the firmware.

The same applies to iPhones - replacing a display is just not possible
without getting a new one from Apple *and* giving them the serial number
of the device you want to put it in. Otherwise the display can not be
used properly.

And if anyone claims this is "neccessary" because of modern design the
users ask for: the Framework laptop or the Fairphone 5 show that this is
possible to create devices which are repairable for anyone without
glueing everything together and using special parts which need special
"calibration software" by the manufacturer just to be usable in a new
device.

[Alan]

On 2023-11-07 15:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 20:24:
>
>> On 2023-11-07 14:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 17:22:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>> That said, Apple's objective is not to make the most money but to make
>>>> the most of the offerings that appeal to people and integrate well in
>>>> the Apple "ecosphere" - something no other company can come close to.
>>>
>>> Steve Jobs never wanted to have "open" systems which can be easily
>>
>> <Classic reactive pulp snipped (ie we've heard it all before)>
>>
>> The philosophy was always oriented to the user experience.
>
> Well - the user experience may also include the ability to modify a
> computer to your personal needs by adding additional memory or replacing
> the storage with a bigger one.

I'm sorry, but that's a very small market.

Think of the small number of people who ever modify their cars.

>
>> The integration within and between Apple devices is unparalleled - that
>> is what this approach brings.
>
> Yes - but with the disadvantage that you as a user can change little or
> nothing in the hardware. For smartphones this is the accepted standard -
> eventhough some people complain about the lack of a slot for MicroSD
> cards to expand storage in a cheap and easy way or the lack of easy
> replacable batteries. This is where products like Fairphone fill a gap.
> If no one would like to have this, no one would buy such products.

Very few people want to buy a Fairphone.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-11-08 01:18, Alan wrote:
> On 2023-11-07 15:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 20:24:
>>
>>> On 2023-11-07 14:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 17:22:
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>> That said, Apple's objective is not to make the most money but to make
>>>>> the most of the offerings that appeal to people and integrate well in
>>>>> the Apple "ecosphere" - something no other company can come close to.
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jobs never wanted to have "open" systems which can be easily
>>>
>>> <Classic reactive pulp snipped (ie we've heard it all before)>
>>>
>>> The philosophy was always oriented to the user experience.
>>
>> Well - the user experience may also include the ability to modify a
>> computer to your personal needs by adding additional memory or replacing
>> the storage with a bigger one.
>
> I'm sorry, but that's a very small market.
>
> Think of the small number of people who ever modify their cars.

Think of the large number of people that take their cars for repairs,
maintenance, modifications, to any non-brand garage.

A modification can be as simple as installing a new GPS navigator, or
getting a better radio, or an improved mirror, or different rubbers.
Things that many people do.

>
>
>>
>>> The integration within and between Apple devices is unparalleled - that
>>> is what this approach brings.
>>
>> Yes - but with the disadvantage that you as a user can change little or
>> nothing in the hardware. For smartphones this is the accepted standard -
>> eventhough some people complain about the lack of a slot for MicroSD
>> cards to expand storage in a cheap and easy way or the lack of easy
>> replacable batteries. This is where products like Fairphone fill a gap.
>> If no one would like to have this, no one would buy such products.
>
> Very few people want to buy a Fairphone.

Hum.

I want to. I don't know if I will.

I want many things.

Same as many people.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan]

On 2023-11-07 18:08, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-11-08 01:18, Alan wrote:
>> On 2023-11-07 15:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 20:24:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-11-07 14:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 17:22:
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> That said, Apple's objective is not to make the most money but to
>>>>>> make
>>>>>> the most of the offerings that appeal to people and integrate well in
>>>>>> the Apple "ecosphere" - something no other company can come close to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jobs never wanted to have "open" systems which can be easily
>>>>
>>>> <Classic reactive pulp snipped (ie we've heard it all before)>
>>>>
>>>> The philosophy was always oriented to the user experience.
>>>
>>> Well - the user experience may also include the ability to modify a
>>> computer to your personal needs by adding additional memory or replacing
>>> the storage with a bigger one.
>>
>> I'm sorry, but that's a very small market.
>>
>> Think of the small number of people who ever modify their cars.
>
> Think of the large number of people that take their cars for repairs,
> maintenance, modifications, to any non-brand garage.

Cars aren't phones.

Cars aren't expected to be small enough to carry in a pocket.

>
> A modification can be as simple as installing a new GPS navigator, or
> getting a better radio, or an improved mirror, or different rubbers.
> Things that many people do.

Nowhere near most however.

>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> The integration within and between Apple devices is unparalleled - that
>>>> is what this approach brings.
>>>
>>> Yes - but with the disadvantage that you as a user can change little or
>>> nothing in the hardware. For smartphones this is the accepted standard -
>>> eventhough some people complain about the lack of a slot for MicroSD
>>> cards to expand storage in a cheap and easy way or the lack of easy
>>> replacable batteries. This is where products like Fairphone fill a gap.
>>> If no one would like to have this, no one would buy such products.
>>
>> Very few people want to buy a Fairphone.
>
> Hum.
>
> I want to. I don't know if I will.
>
> I want many things.
>
> Same as many people.

Yup.

And we can see that many people want iPhones, time after time.

You might sell them on style once, but not over and over.

[Alan Browne]

On 2023-11-07 18:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 20:24:
>
>> On 2023-11-07 14:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 17:22:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>> That said, Apple's objective is not to make the most money but to make
>>>> the most of the offerings that appeal to people and integrate well in
>>>> the Apple "ecosphere" - something no other company can come close to.
>>>
>>> Steve Jobs never wanted to have "open" systems which can be easily
>>
>> <Classic reactive pulp snipped (ie we've heard it all before)>
>>
>> The philosophy was always oriented to the user experience.
>
> Well - the user experience may also include the ability to modify a
> computer to your personal needs by adding additional memory or replacing
> the storage with a bigger one.

Did that with with three Macs.

But that era is over.

>
>> The integration within and between Apple devices is unparalleled - that
>> is what this approach brings.
>
> Yes - but with the disadvantage that you as a user can change little or
> nothing in the hardware. For smartphones this is the accepted standard -
> eventhough some people complain about the lack of a slot for MicroSD
> cards to expand storage in a cheap and easy way or the lack of easy
> replacable batteries. This is where products like Fairphone fill a gap.
> If no one would like to have this, no one would buy such products.

An iPhone is an appliance. Buy what you need at the start and move on.

>
>> Personally I've repaired and upgraded a couple iMacs (and upgraded their
>> innards) on several occasions. Same with Mac Mini. Indeed, after I
>> migrate off of this 11 year old one, I will probably give it a new SSD,
>> perhaps as much as 8 GB and put it in a closet somewhere as a server of
>> some sort.
>
> Yes, with a 10 or 11 year old device you still can do repairs. But *new*
> macs and macbooks are not the same any longer. See the video by Louis
> Rossman I have posted. Current models are *not* repairable that easy any
> longer and iFixit does not even contain any repair guides for current
> models since it makes no sense any longer to try that on your own.

Once upon a time you had to buy the ethernet card. And serial card.
And video card. And .... well, nomore.

Now you don't buy the memory or storage separately (though external
storage is not only cheap and fast but so are the interfaces.

Face it: living in 1995 is over.

>
> And no, this has nothing to do with "user experience". It is just
> keeping control over the hardware and avoiding independent repair shops
> being able to do cheap repairs. As a customer you are now forced to go
> to Apple if you have any problem with your hardware since many parts
> contain serial numbers which are checked by the firmware.

OTOH, Apple have recently committed to a higher level of repairability.
To be seen ...

>
> The same applies to iPhones - replacing a display is just not possible
> without getting a new one from Apple *and* giving them the serial number
> of the device you want to put it in. Otherwise the display can not be
> used properly.

Workarounds abound ...

>
> And if anyone claims this is "neccessary" because of modern design the
> users ask for: the Framework laptop or the Fairphone 5 show that this is
> possible to create devices which are repairable for anyone without
> glueing everything together and using special parts which need special
> "calibration software" by the manufacturer just to be usable in a new
> device.

See above.

[Carlos E. R.]

Huh? You brought up the comparison.

>
> Cars aren't expected to be small enough to carry in a pocket.
>
>>
>> A modification can be as simple as installing a new GPS navigator, or
>> getting a better radio, or an improved mirror, or different rubbers.
>> Things that many people do.
>
> Nowhere near most however.
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> The integration within and between Apple devices is unparalleled -
>>>>> that
>>>>> is what this approach brings.
>>>>
>>>> Yes - but with the disadvantage that you as a user can change little or
>>>> nothing in the hardware. For smartphones this is the accepted
>>>> standard -
>>>> eventhough some people complain about the lack of a slot for MicroSD
>>>> cards to expand storage in a cheap and easy way or the lack of easy
>>>> replacable batteries. This is where products like Fairphone fill a gap.
>>>> If no one would like to have this, no one would buy such products.
>>>
>>> Very few people want to buy a Fairphone.
>>
>> Hum.
>>
>> I want to. I don't know if I will.
>>
>> I want many things.
>>
>> Same as many people.
>
> Yup.
>
> And we can see that many people want iPhones, time after time.

3 times more people want Androids :-p

>
> You might sell them on style once, but not over and over.
>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Arno Welzel]

Alan, 2023-11-08 01:18:

> On 2023-11-07 15:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 20:24:
>>
>>> On 2023-11-07 14:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 17:22:
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>> That said, Apple's objective is not to make the most money but to make
>>>>> the most of the offerings that appeal to people and integrate well in
>>>>> the Apple "ecosphere" - something no other company can come close to.
>>>>
>>>> Steve Jobs never wanted to have "open" systems which can be easily
>>>
>>> <Classic reactive pulp snipped (ie we've heard it all before)>
>>>
>>> The philosophy was always oriented to the user experience.
>>
>> Well - the user experience may also include the ability to modify a
>> computer to your personal needs by adding additional memory or replacing
>> the storage with a bigger one.
>
> I'm sorry, but that's a very small market.
>
> Think of the small number of people who ever modify their cars.

Well - still there is a whole industry selling after market "tuning"
parts for cars.

[...]

>> Yes - but with the disadvantage that you as a user can change little or
>> nothing in the hardware. For smartphones this is the accepted standard -
>> eventhough some people complain about the lack of a slot for MicroSD
>> cards to expand storage in a cheap and easy way or the lack of easy
>> replacable batteries. This is where products like Fairphone fill a gap.
>> If no one would like to have this, no one would buy such products.
>
> Very few people want to buy a Fairphone.

Yes, compared to the world wide market. In that case also a very few
people use usenet - so your posts here are completely irrelevant because
you use a medium nearly nobody uses any longer today.

[Arno Welzel]

Alan, 2023-11-08 04:16:

> On 2023-11-07 18:08, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-11-08 01:18, Alan wrote:

[...]

>>> Think of the small number of people who ever modify their cars.
>>
>> Think of the large number of people that take their cars for repairs,
>> maintenance, modifications, to any non-brand garage.
>
> Cars aren't phones.
>
> Cars aren't expected to be small enough to carry in a pocket.

*YOU* started with cars!

[Arno Welzel]

Alan Browne, 2023-11-08 05:41:

> On 2023-11-07 18:00, Arno Welzel wrote:

[...]

>> Yes, with a 10 or 11 year old device you still can do repairs. But *new*
>> macs and macbooks are not the same any longer. See the video by Louis
>> Rossman I have posted. Current models are *not* repairable that easy any
>> longer and iFixit does not even contain any repair guides for current
>> models since it makes no sense any longer to try that on your own.
>
> Once upon a time you had to buy the ethernet card. And serial card.
> And video card. And .... well, nomore.

I did buy a video card a few weeks ago... RTX 4060 for my PC ;-)

> Now you don't buy the memory or storage separately (though external
> storage is not only cheap and fast but so are the interfaces.

I also bought 128 GB of RAM for a workstation.

> Face it: living in 1995 is over.

Yes, in 1995 I could not get a workstation with many cores and 64 GB of
RAM which I can extend to 128 or 256 GB if needed or a faster CPU when
technology evolved ;-)

Of course in your world people throw away the whole thing which was 5000
USD in the first place to spend another 5000 USD or more to get a new
model instead of spending 200-500 USD for more memory or a faster CPU or
a better graphics card.

[Alan]

Yup. And for WHY I brought it up, it was accurate.

[The Real Bev]

On 11/8/23 11:48 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Alan Browne, 2023-11-08 05:41:
>
>> On 2023-11-07 18:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
> [...]
>>> Yes, with a 10 or 11 year old device you still can do repairs. But *new*
>>> macs and macbooks are not the same any longer. See the video by Louis
>>> Rossman I have posted. Current models are *not* repairable that easy any
>>> longer and iFixit does not even contain any repair guides for current
>>> models since it makes no sense any longer to try that on your own.
>>
>> Once upon a time you had to buy the ethernet card. And serial card.
>> And video card. And .... well, nomore.
>
> I did buy a video card a few weeks ago... RTX 4060 for my PC ;-)
>
>> Now you don't buy the memory or storage separately (though external
>> storage is not only cheap and fast but so are the interfaces.
>
> I also bought 128 GB of RAM for a workstation.
>
>> Face it: living in 1995 is over.

That's the year my mom and I retired. Win95 was not a bad OS. Best of
the bunch. I kind of wish I hadn't updated that machine to Win7...

> Yes, in 1995 I could not get a workstation with many cores and 64 GB of
> RAM which I can extend to 128 or 256 GB if needed or a faster CPU when
> technology evolved ;-)
>
> Of course in your world people throw away the whole thing which was 5000
> USD in the first place to spend another 5000 USD or more to get a new
> model instead of spending 200-500 USD for more memory or a faster CPU or
> a better graphics card.

There used to be a lot of walk-in electronics stores (Fry's comes to
mind; it hit me hard when they went belly-up). If you want to build
your own you have to order the parts and if they don't play well
together it's not necessarily easy to straighten out. Even when Fry's
was here it took several trips to finally get everything to mesh.

There's a Micro Center maybe 50 miles away. We drove down to look, but
didn't buy anything. Too far to drive if it didn't work, and they were
out of a lot of stuff. Prices were nothing special.

We built my computer in 2011. Almost top-of-the-line stuff. Replaced
the drives, graphics card and a few other bits and pieces. Still works
fine, unlike the tablets which have a definitely finite lifetime.


--
Cheers, Bev
"Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them."
-- Lionel

[Carlos E. R.]

I also built my own computer, from a place online. The case I bought
from Amazon, and I got a way to big case. It went well, the machine is
built to last more than a decade.

Laptop? No, but I bought a customized Lenovo. All the customization made
in China, then sent to Spain in about a week. Amazing.

I made a mistake, the socket for memory cards is of the small type,
while all my cameras use the big one. I don't remember they offering
both types, so maybe not a mistake of me.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan]

Yes, but analogies only go so far.

[Alan]

On 2023-11-08 11:42, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Alan, 2023-11-08 01:18:
>
>> On 2023-11-07 15:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 20:24:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-11-07 14:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-07 17:22:
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> That said, Apple's objective is not to make the most money but to make
>>>>>> the most of the offerings that appeal to people and integrate well in
>>>>>> the Apple "ecosphere" - something no other company can come close to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jobs never wanted to have "open" systems which can be easily
>>>>
>>>> <Classic reactive pulp snipped (ie we've heard it all before)>
>>>>
>>>> The philosophy was always oriented to the user experience.
>>>
>>> Well - the user experience may also include the ability to modify a
>>> computer to your personal needs by adding additional memory or replacing
>>> the storage with a bigger one.
>>
>> I'm sorry, but that's a very small market.
>>
>> Think of the small number of people who ever modify their cars.
>
> Well - still there is a whole industry selling after market "tuning"
> parts for cars.

There is. And it is tiny compared to the overall market for cars.

>
> [...]
>>> Yes - but with the disadvantage that you as a user can change little or
>>> nothing in the hardware. For smartphones this is the accepted standard -
>>> eventhough some people complain about the lack of a slot for MicroSD
>>> cards to expand storage in a cheap and easy way or the lack of easy
>>> replacable batteries. This is where products like Fairphone fill a gap.
>>> If no one would like to have this, no one would buy such products.
>>
>> Very few people want to buy a Fairphone.
>
> Yes, compared to the world wide market. In that case also a very few
> people use usenet - so your posts here are completely irrelevant because
> you use a medium nearly nobody uses any longer today.

It's relevant to me...

...but you don't see me trying to claim that what's relevant to me is
automatically relevant to everyone; which is exactly what folks are
trying to do here.

[Alan]

On 2023-11-08 11:48, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Alan Browne, 2023-11-08 05:41:
>
>> On 2023-11-07 18:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
> [...]
>>> Yes, with a 10 or 11 year old device you still can do repairs. But *new*
>>> macs and macbooks are not the same any longer. See the video by Louis
>>> Rossman I have posted. Current models are *not* repairable that easy any
>>> longer and iFixit does not even contain any repair guides for current
>>> models since it makes no sense any longer to try that on your own.
>>
>> Once upon a time you had to buy the ethernet card. And serial card.
>> And video card. And .... well, nomore.
>
> I did buy a video card a few weeks ago... RTX 4060 for my PC ;-)

So? This isn't something the vast majority of people ever do.

>
>> Now you don't buy the memory or storage separately (though external
>> storage is not only cheap and fast but so are the interfaces.
>
> I also bought 128 GB of RAM for a workstation.

Supra.

>
>> Face it: living in 1995 is over.
>
> Yes, in 1995 I could not get a workstation with many cores and 64 GB of
> RAM which I can extend to 128 or 256 GB if needed or a faster CPU when
> technology evolved ;-)
>
> Of course in your world people throw away the whole thing which was 5000
> USD in the first place to spend another 5000 USD or more to get a new
> model instead of spending 200-500 USD for more memory or a faster CPU or
> a better graphics card.

Again, you're implying that because it's relevant to YOU, it is as
relevant for everyone else.

You understand that you are actually a very niche market, right?

[Carlos E. R.]

And you claim to be the arbiter of when the analogy is appropriate or
not, when it suits you. Well, no.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-11-09 18:26, Alan wrote:
> On 2023-11-08 11:48, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-08 05:41:
>>
>>> On 2023-11-07 18:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
>> [...]
>>>> Yes, with a 10 or 11 year old device you still can do repairs. But
>>>> *new*
>>>> macs and macbooks are not the same any longer. See the video by Louis
>>>> Rossman I have posted. Current models are *not* repairable that easy
>>>> any
>>>> longer and iFixit does not even contain any repair guides for current
>>>> models since it makes no sense any longer to try that on your own.
>>>
>>> Once upon a time you had to buy the ethernet card.  And serial card.
>>> And video card.  And ....  well, nomore.
>>
>> I did buy a video card a few weeks ago... RTX 4060 for my PC ;-)
>
> So? This isn't something the vast majority of people ever do.

Judging by the huge number of video cards they manufacture, I doubt your
claim.

...

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan]

Well, yes.

The point was that ordinary consumers for the most part buy consumer
goods and use them AS IS.

[Alan]

And you know what those numbers are, do you?

And you know what share of that alleged "huge number" are produced for
aftermarket sales vs how many go straight into systems bought whole, huh?

[Alan]

On 2023-11-09 11:35, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Quick data points for you consider:

"Desktop GPU Sales Hit 20-Year Low"

<https://www.tomshardware.com/news/sales-of-desktop-graphics-cards-hit-20-year-low>

In a world where personal computer sales are around 250 million, sales
of only around 7 million graphics cards means the vast majority of
people (more than 97%) aren't buying them.

<https://www.statista.com/statistics/264467/global-pc-shipments-since-1st-quarter-2009/>

[Carlos E. R.]

You do?
--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[News]

Of course he doesn't. He's a perennial, boring, troll and poseur.

[Alan]

Check my follow-up.

Yes: I do know.

[Alan]

Following my round the internet, are you, "News"?

:-)

[Your Name]

The majority of graphics cards are bought by the PC manufacturers
themselves. Apart from serious gamers and professional users (e.g.
graphics and video industries), most people don't change their video
card nor anything else in their computer. Apple caters for the majority
of users who just want their computer to work, not the niche market of
geeks and nerds who like mucking about inside their computer boxes.

[The Real Bev]

Cases are a real problem. You don't know about the difficulties until
you're actually putting it togeteher. Like trying to stuff all the sata
cables in because you're putting in several hard drives. The housing
for the drives looked really good, and then you noticed that all the
cables are mashed together with roughly half an inch of space between
the removable side and the back of the drive housing. The carrying
handle on top which makes it impossible to put your scanner there. The
USB3 sockets in BACK with the USB2 sockets right out where they're easy
to get at.

> Laptop? No, but I bought a customized Lenovo. All the customization made
> in China, then sent to Spain in about a week. Amazing.

I'm really pissed about my Lenovo tablet. The power switch works fine,
but the plastic thing in the case that pushes it doesn't quite reach.
It may have just worn down. Take the back off, unscrew some stuff, do
some other stuff, put it back together and you're OK for a while. And
then the switch stops working again. I've added shims, but they're
never enough to last and I just got tired of screwing around with it.

> I made a mistake, the socket for memory cards is of the small type,
> while all my cameras use the big one. I don't remember they offering
> both types, so maybe not a mistake of me.

It's fortunate that there adapters for just about anything.

BTW, the Keepgo SIM seems to work OK, but it seems to 'roam' more often
than not -- and we're in a heavy AT&T area. The customer support is
very good. The chat function is duplicated in email and vice versa and
replies happen within 24 hours.

--
Cheers, Bev
"I've learned that you can keep puking long
after you think you're finished." -- SL

[Alan]

On 2023-11-09 19:24, Your Name wrote:
> On 2023-11-09 19:35:26 +0000, Carlos E. R. said:
>
>> On 2023-11-09 18:26, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-08 11:48, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-08 05:41:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2023-11-07 18:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>>> Yes, with a 10 or 11 year old device you still can do repairs. But
>>>>>> *new* macs and macbooks are not the same any longer. See the video
>>>>>> by Louis Rossman I have posted. Current models are *not*
>>>>>> repairable that easy any longer and iFixit does not even contain
>>>>>> any repair guides for current models since it makes no sense any
>>>>>> longer to try that on your own.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once upon a time you had to buy the ethernet card.  And serial card.
>>>>> And video card.  And ....  well, nomore.
>>>>
>>>> I did buy a video card a few weeks ago... RTX 4060 for my PC ;-)
>>>
>>> So? This isn't something the vast majority of people ever do.
>>
>> Judging by the huge number of video cards they manufacture, I doubt
>> your claim.
>>
>> ...
>
> The majority of graphics cards are bought by the PC manufacturers
> themselves. Apart from serious gamers and professional users (e.g.
> graphics and video industries), most people don't change their video
> card nor anything else in their computer.

Absolutely correct!

[Carlos E. R.]

But we can, which is the point :-)

I would not buy a computer where I'd be restricted from changing
hardware by myself.

Ok, laptops have extra difficulties, but that we can sometimes accept.
Or we can take the machine to a profesional to do the tinkering.

Even if the machine is not for me, I buy or recommend machines to
others, I apply the same rule.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-11-10 05:30, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 11/9/23 2:46 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-11-09 06:57, The Real Bev wrote:
>>> On 11/8/23 11:48 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-08 05:41:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2023-11-07 18:00, Arno Welzel wrote:

...

>>> We built my computer in 2011.  Almost top-of-the-line stuff.
>>> Replaced the drives, graphics card and a few other bits and pieces.
>>> Still works fine, unlike the tablets which have a definitely finite
>>> lifetime.
>>
>> I also built my own computer, from a place online. The case I bought
>> from Amazon, and I got a way to big case. It went well, the machine is
>> built to last more than a decade.
>
> Cases are a real problem.  You don't know about the difficulties until
> you're actually putting it togeteher.  Like trying to stuff all the sata
> cables in because you're putting in several hard drives.  The housing
> for the drives looked really good, and then you noticed that all the
> cables are mashed together with roughly half an inch of space between
> the removable side and the back of the drive housing.  The carrying
> handle on top which makes it impossible to put your scanner there.  The
> USB3 sockets in BACK with the USB2 sockets right out where they're easy
> to get at.

Yeah.

Very hard to judge when buying online.

I bought so big a case that I had to modify my computer rack to make
room for it...

I could have bought the same case as the previous time, just modernized,
but there was none to see.

>
>> Laptop? No, but I bought a customized Lenovo. All the customization made
>> in China, then sent to Spain in about a week. Amazing.
>
> I'm really pissed about my Lenovo tablet.  The power switch works fine,
> but the plastic thing in the case that pushes it doesn't quite reach. It
> may have just worn down.  Take the back off, unscrew some stuff, do some
> other stuff, put it back together and you're OK for a while.  And then
> the switch stops working again.  I've added shims, but they're never
> enough to last and I just got tired of screwing around with it.

Can you remove the switch, and get a cable out instead, with a proper
external switch? Ok, it is a HACK, but might work.

>
>> I made a mistake, the socket for memory cards is of the small type,
>> while all my cameras use the big one. I don't remember they offering
>> both types, so maybe not a mistake of me.
>
> It's fortunate that there adapters for just about anything.

Yeah, I bought one, but doesn't work :-(

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07JMTW1YD/

>
> BTW, the Keepgo SIM seems to work OK, but it seems to 'roam' more often
> than not -- and we're in a heavy AT&T area.  The customer support is
> very good.  The chat function is duplicated in email and vice versa and
> replies happen within 24 hours.
>

--
Cheers,

Carlos E.R.

[The Real Bev]

On 11/10/23 6:27 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> Can you remove the switch, and get a cable out instead, with a proper
> external switch? Ok, it is a HACK, but might work.

More hacking than I want to do. Maybe thicker shims next time I feel
like playing with it. Hubby just bought a cheap tablet which he decided
he didn't want, and that's better than the Lenovo. It's not like I
actually NEED one, but they're handy for travel -- which I do every few
years. Laptop/notebook is better, though.

>>> I made a mistake, the socket for memory cards is of the small type,
>>> while all my cameras use the big one. I don't remember they offering
>>> both types, so maybe not a mistake of me.
>>
>> It's fortunate that there adapters for just about anything.
>
> Yeah, I bought one, but doesn't work :-(
>
> https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07JMTW1YD/

I'm sure the reason Amazon is so successful is the ease of returning
stuff. I have two places within walking distance where I can drop the
thing off unwrapped. I DID put an SD card in an envelope, though.


--
Cheers, Bev
"In all recorded history there has not been one economist who has
had to worry about where the next meal would come from."
-- Peter S. Drucker, who invented management

[News]

It's you, poseur, you're spread-eagled roadkill, all over the boards.

[Alan]

LOL!

I'm not the one yapping like a small dog.

[Alan]

No. The point is about how MANY people care about that.

And the answer remains, "Not many">

>
> I would not buy a computer where I'd be restricted from changing
> hardware by myself.

Yes. The very fact that you are HERE on a Usenet newsgroup means you are
not a typical consumer of technology.

>
> Ok, laptops have extra difficulties, but that we can sometimes accept.
> Or we can take the machine to a profesional to do the tinkering.
>
> Even if the machine is not for me, I buy or recommend machines to
> others, I apply the same rule.

So you recommend things for people to use based on how well they'd work
for YOU...

...not how well they'd word for THEM?

[Alan]

On 2023-11-09 12:15, Alan wrote:

Well, Carlos?

[News]

Your thought to text diarrhea precedes you, leaving hazmat all over the
boards.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-11-10 16:39, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 11/10/23 6:27 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> Can you remove the switch, and get a cable out instead, with a proper
>> external switch? Ok, it is a HACK, but might work.
>
> More hacking than I want to do.  Maybe thicker shims next time I feel
> like playing with it.  Hubby just bought a cheap tablet which he decided
> he didn't want, and that's better than the Lenovo.  It's not like I
> actually NEED one, but they're handy for travel -- which I do every few
> years.  Laptop/notebook is better, though.

Absolutely, a 14" laptop is much better than a tablet when travelling.
Heavier, too.

>>>> I made a mistake, the socket for memory cards is of the small type,
>>>> while all my cameras use the big one. I don't remember they offering
>>>> both types, so maybe not a mistake of me.
>>>
>>> It's fortunate that there adapters for just about anything.
>>
>> Yeah, I bought one, but doesn't work :-(
>>
>> https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07JMTW1YD/
>
> I'm sure the reason Amazon is so successful is the ease of returning
> stuff.  I have two places within walking distance where I can drop the
> thing off unwrapped.  I DID put an SD card in an envelope, though.

Certainly, but that purchase was in Canada through the account of a
relative, while I was staying there, and I did not want to put that
hassle on her. The thing was cheap, and I can try some other time to see
what is going on.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

:-D

>
>>
>> Ok, laptops have extra difficulties, but that we can sometimes accept.
>> Or we can take the machine to a profesional to do the tinkering.
>>
>> Even if the machine is not for me, I buy or recommend machines to
>> others, I apply the same rule.
>
> So you recommend things for people to use based on how well they'd work
> for YOU...

Certainly. For two reasons: every recommendation is made on our
experiences, and I will be called to do the maintenance. Also blamed for
making a bad choice if something goes bad.

>
> ...not how well they'd word for THEM?
>

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

Must I answer?

I'm leaving that to others. :-)

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan]

LOL!

Keep yapping, puppy.

[Alan]

Of course not.

It shows a certain intellectual cowardice to ignore a direct rebuttal...

...especially after explicitly asking if I did, in fact, have the numbers.

But you do you, and maybe cowardice suits you best.

;-)

[Alan]

No rebuttal.

Got it.

>>
>>>
>>> I would not buy a computer where I'd be restricted from changing
>>> hardware by myself.
>>
>> Yes. The very fact that you are HERE on a Usenet newsgroup means you
>> are not a typical consumer of technology.
>
> :-D

No actual rebuttal of that simple fact?

>
>>
>>>
>>> Ok, laptops have extra difficulties, but that we can sometimes
>>> accept. Or we can take the machine to a profesional to do the tinkering.
>>>
>>> Even if the machine is not for me, I buy or recommend machines to
>>> others, I apply the same rule.
>>
>> So you recommend things for people to use based on how well they'd
>> work for YOU...
>
> Certainly. For two reasons: every recommendation is made on our
> experiences, and I will be called to do the maintenance. Also blamed for
> making a bad choice if something goes bad.
>
>>
>> ...not how well they'd word for THEM?

So... ...I like sports cars and sports coupes.

Should I have recommended one to my sister-in-law, who needed basic
transportation for herself and her daughter?

I actually do computer technical support for a living, and the
recommendations I make to people about what technology they should have
is always based first-and-foremost on what THEIR needs are.

[News]

Keep shitting all over yourself and on the boards, poseur.

[Carlos E. R.]

No comment on insults.
--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan]

LOL!

[Alan]

Running away does seem your best bet.

Happy to have given you the excuse you needed.

:-)

[News]

Laugh it up, loser. Change your adult diapers. If you are an adult.

[Alan]

On 2023-11-10 12:18, News wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Your thought to text diarrhea precedes you, leaving hazmat all over
>>>>> the boards.
>>>>
>>>> LOL!
>>>>
>>>> Keep yapping, puppy.
>>>
>>>
>>> Keep shitting all over yourself and on the boards, poseur.
>>
>> LOL!
>
>
> Laugh it up, loser. Change your adult diapers. If you are an adult.

LOLOL!

[News]

Q.E.D.

[Alan]

Indeed.

Puppies aren't known for their understanding of irony.

:-)

[The Real Bev]

On 11/10/23 9:56 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2023-11-10 16:39, The Real Bev wrote:
>> On 11/10/23 6:27 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

>>> Yeah, I bought one, but doesn't work :-(
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07JMTW1YD/
>>
>> I'm sure the reason Amazon is so successful is the ease of returning
>> stuff.  I have two places within walking distance where I can drop the
>> thing off unwrapped.  I DID put an SD card in an envelope, though.
>
> Certainly, but that purchase was in Canada through the account of a
> relative, while I was staying there, and I did not want to put that
> hassle on her. The thing was cheap, and I can try some other time to see
> what is going on.

Our definition of 'cheap' has definitely changed over the decades. I
started working when minimum wage was ~$1, and the system was set in
concrete then. It's really hard for me to adjust for inflation.

I would like to believe that even at the ridiculous price gas is now,
inflation and better mileage makes it cheaper than it was in 1957 on a
per-mile basis, but I don't want to run the numbers and find out that
I'm wrong.

--
Cheers, Bev
There are 10 types of people in this world,
those who understand binary and those who don't.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-11-10 22:33, The Real Bev wrote:
> On 11/10/23 9:56 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-11-10 16:39, The Real Bev wrote:
>>> On 11/10/23 6:27 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> ...
>>>> Yeah, I bought one, but doesn't work :-(
>>>>
>>>> https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07JMTW1YD/
>>>
>>> I'm sure the reason Amazon is so successful is the ease of returning
>>> stuff.  I have two places within walking distance where I can drop
>>> the thing off unwrapped.  I DID put an SD card in an envelope, though.
>>
>> Certainly, but that purchase was in Canada through the account of a
>> relative, while I was staying there, and I did not want to put that
>> hassle on her. The thing was cheap, and I can try some other time to see
>> what is going on.
>
> Our definition of 'cheap' has definitely changed over the decades.  I
> started working when minimum wage was ~$1, and the system was set in
> concrete then.  It's really hard for me to adjust for inflation.

Yeah, well... I remember when one peseta (0.006€) would buy us a small
bag of salted sunflower seeds to last the movie at the open sky summer
theatre :-D

Or one packaged chewing gum piece.

>
> I would like to believe that even at the ridiculous price gas is now,
> inflation and better mileage makes it cheaper than it was in 1957 on a
> per-mile basis, but I don't want to run the numbers and find out that
> I'm wrong.

You'd faint here, half or so of the price of gas are taxes, so our price
can be double yours :-p

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Arno Welzel]

The Real Bev, 2023-11-09 06:57:

> On 11/8/23 11:48 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:

[...]
>> Of course in your world people throw away the whole thing which was 5000
>> USD in the first place to spend another 5000 USD or more to get a new
>> model instead of spending 200-500 USD for more memory or a faster CPU or
>> a better graphics card.
>
> There used to be a lot of walk-in electronics stores (Fry's comes to
> mind; it hit me hard when they went belly-up). If you want to build
> your own you have to order the parts and if they don't play well
> together it's not necessarily easy to straighten out. Even when Fry's
> was here it took several trips to finally get everything to mesh.

Well - recently I just ordered parts like a mainboard, memory and a AMD
Ryzen CPU and it works quite well:

<https://arnowelzel.de/en/pc-with-amd-ryzen-7>

Parts are available online and will be delivered within a few days, so
there is no need for electronics stores any longer. I also get all my
electronic parts and PCBs online like the one a designed in 2021:

<https://arnowelzel.de/en/hdsp-211x-for-raspberry-pi-first-test>


--
Arno Welzel
https://arnowelzel.de

[Arno Welzel]

Alan, 2023-11-09 18:26:

> On 2023-11-08 11:48, Arno Welzel wrote:

[...]

>> I did buy a video card a few weeks ago... RTX 4060 for my PC ;-)
>
> So? This isn't something the vast majority of people ever do.

There still enough people doing so. Otherwise NVidia would not be known
as the company they are.

[...]
>> Of course in your world people throw away the whole thing which was 5000
>> USD in the first place to spend another 5000 USD or more to get a new
>> model instead of spending 200-500 USD for more memory or a faster CPU or
>> a better graphics card.
>

> Again, you're implying that because it's relevant to YOU, it is as
> relevant for everyone else.
>
> You understand that you are actually a very niche market, right?

So what? Everything is a "niche" if not the majority of users to the
same. The whole desktop PC and laptop business is a "niche". Many people
nowadays only use smartphones and tablets and when I see the statistics
of the websites I maintain, some of them have more than 70-80% of mobile
users only.

But my point is: even if it is a niche, it is not *non* *existant*. "PC
gamers" maybe a niche but a quite rich one, similar to a certain type of
sports cars - not for everyone but vendors can live quite well with the
sales anyway.

[Arno Welzel]

Alan, 2023-11-09 21:06:

> On 2023-11-09 11:35, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2023-11-09 18:26, Alan wrote:

>>> On 2023-11-08 11:48, Arno Welzel wrote:

>>>> Alan Browne, 2023-11-08 05:41:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2023-11-07 18:00, Arno Welzel wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>>> Yes, with a 10 or 11 year old device you still can do repairs. But
>>>>>> *new*
>>>>>> macs and macbooks are not the same any longer. See the video by Louis
>>>>>> Rossman I have posted. Current models are *not* repairable that
>>>>>> easy any
>>>>>> longer and iFixit does not even contain any repair guides for current
>>>>>> models since it makes no sense any longer to try that on your own.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once upon a time you had to buy the ethernet card.  And serial card.
>>>>> And video card.  And ....  well, nomore.
>>>>

>>>> I did buy a video card a few weeks ago... RTX 4060 for my PC ;-)
>>>
>>> So? This isn't something the vast majority of people ever do.
>>

>> Judging by the huge number of video cards they manufacture, I doubt your
>> claim.
>
> And you know what those numbers are, do you?

Around 20-30 million cards in 2022:

<https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-maintains-lead-as-sales-of-graphics-cards-hit-all-time-low-in-2022-jpr>

[The Real Bev]

On 11/11/23 1:13 PM, Arno Welzel wrote:
> The Real Bev, 2023-11-09 06:57:
>
>> On 11/8/23 11:48 AM, Arno Welzel wrote:
> [...]
>>> Of course in your world people throw away the whole thing which was 5000
>>> USD in the first place to spend another 5000 USD or more to get a new
>>> model instead of spending 200-500 USD for more memory or a faster CPU or
>>> a better graphics card.
>>
>> There used to be a lot of walk-in electronics stores (Fry's comes to
>> mind; it hit me hard when they went belly-up). If you want to build
>> your own you have to order the parts and if they don't play well
>> together it's not necessarily easy to straighten out. Even when Fry's
>> was here it took several trips to finally get everything to mesh.

Still, the stores were fun. I hope they don't get normalized when the
new owners remodel. https://tinyurl.com/38s2a6nb

> Well - recently I just ordered parts like a mainboard, memory and a AMD
> Ryzen CPU and it works quite well:
>
> <https://arnowelzel.de/en/pc-with-amd-ryzen-7>

Perhaps there are fewer choices now and the manufacturers are less
likely to lie about compatability. There was ONE good guy at Fry's who
knew his stuff, but he wasn't always there when we were.

> Parts are available online and will be delivered within a few days, so
> there is no need for electronics stores any longer. I also get all my
> electronic parts and PCBs online like the one a designed in 2021:
>
> <https://arnowelzel.de/en/hdsp-211x-for-raspberry-pi-first-test>

Pis are different :-)

[Your Name]

On 2023-11-11 21:19:07 +0000, Arno Welzel said:
> Alan, 2023-11-09 18:26:
>> On 2023-11-08 11:48, Arno Welzel wrote:
> [...]
>>> I did buy a video card a few weeks ago... RTX 4060 for my PC ;-)
>>
>> So? This isn't something the vast majority of people ever do.
>
> There still enough people doing so. Otherwise NVidia would not be known
> as the company they are.

Nvidia doesn't make only graphics cards for the public, in fact that
will be their smallest market. They also make chips and cards for
various things, including for use in data centres, AI, self-driving
cars, etc.

"Nvidia's largest US customers are Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Meta, and Dell."

That is where they make most of the money ... not a tiny number of Joe
Average nerds on the street upgrading their Windoze PCs.

[Alan]

Read the article:

'Unit sales of discrete graphics cards for desktop computers hit an
all-time low in 2022, according to data released by Jon Peddie Research
this week. While shipments of add-in-boards (AIBs) rebounded in the
fourth quarter, driven by the introduction of AMD's Radeon RX
7900-series as well as Nvidia's GeForce RTX 4080 and GeForce RTX 4090
products — which are the best graphics cards available today — the whole
year was exceptionally weak for graphics cards.'

IOW, that number is the the total of all discrete graphics card for OEM
use AND add-in boards.

[Alan]

On 2023-11-11 13:19, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Alan, 2023-11-09 18:26:
>
>> On 2023-11-08 11:48, Arno Welzel wrote:
> [...]
>>> I did buy a video card a few weeks ago... RTX 4060 for my PC ;-)
>>
>> So? This isn't something the vast majority of people ever do.
>
> There still enough people doing so. Otherwise NVidia would not be known
> as the company they are.

They sell most of their cards to OEMs.

>
> [...]
>>> Of course in your world people throw away the whole thing which was 5000
>>> USD in the first place to spend another 5000 USD or more to get a new
>>> model instead of spending 200-500 USD for more memory or a faster CPU or
>>> a better graphics card.
>>
>> Again, you're implying that because it's relevant to YOU, it is as
>> relevant for everyone else.
>>
>> You understand that you are actually a very niche market, right?
>
> So what? Everything is a "niche" if not the majority of users to the
> same. The whole desktop PC and laptop business is a "niche". Many people
> nowadays only use smartphones and tablets and when I see the statistics
> of the websites I maintain, some of them have more than 70-80% of mobile
> users only.

No. "The whole desktop PC and laptop business" is NOT a niche.

>
> But my point is: even if it is a niche, it is not *non* *existant*. "PC
> gamers" maybe a niche but a quite rich one, similar to a certain type of
> sports cars - not for everyone but vendors can live quite well with the
> sales anyway.

But the whole point of this was a discussion of what makes sense for an
OEM such as Apple to sell.

Fact: most people---the VAST majority---don't ever modify the computers
they buy.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-11-11 22:19, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Alan, 2023-11-09 18:26:
>
>> On 2023-11-08 11:48, Arno Welzel wrote:
> [...]

> But my point is: even if it is a niche, it is not *non* *existant*. "PC
> gamers" maybe a niche but a quite rich one, similar to a certain type of
> sports cars - not for everyone but vendors can live quite well with the
> sales anyway.

The computer industry and users owes a huge lot to gamers. Thanks to
them, the personal computer grew in power tremendously, fast, and
affordable.

Heh, a green text display was good enough for business :-D

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan]

The computer industry owes more to Apple.

It was the Apple II (and VisiCalc) that first gave businesses a reason
to buy personal computers...

...and IBM got so frightened that they rushed out a computer that could
be copied...

...running an OS that they'd only licensed.

[Arno Welzel]

Alan, 2023-11-11 22:37:

> On 2023-11-11 13:21, Arno Welzel wrote:

[...]

>> Around 20-30 million cards in 2022:
>>
>> <https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-maintains-lead-as-sales-of-graphics-cards-hit-all-time-low-in-2022-jpr>
>>
>>
>
> Read the article:
>
> 'Unit sales of discrete graphics cards for desktop computers hit an
> all-time low in 2022, according to data released by Jon Peddie Research
> this week. While shipments of add-in-boards (AIBs) rebounded in the
> fourth quarter, driven by the introduction of AMD's Radeon RX
> 7900-series as well as Nvidia's GeForce RTX 4080 and GeForce RTX 4090
> products — which are the best graphics cards available today — the whole
> year was exceptionally weak for graphics cards.'
>
> IOW, that number is the the total of all discrete graphics card for OEM
> use AND add-in boards.

So what? I just linked to the article. I did not say that the numbers of
sold graphics cards are very - just that they are still available and
still a thing for "PC gamers". And as long as integrated solutions will
not get close to the performance of a RTX 4090 this will not change soon.

And "PC gamers" are the guys who run multiple big monitors and don't
have a problem spending more than 2000 dollars for their equipment.

[Arno Welzel]

Alan, 2023-11-11 22:40:

> On 2023-11-11 13:19, Arno Welzel wrote:

[...]

>> But my point is: even if it is a niche, it is not *non* *existant*. "PC
>> gamers" maybe a niche but a quite rich one, similar to a certain type of
>> sports cars - not for everyone but vendors can live quite well with the
>> sales anyway.
>
> But the whole point of this was a discussion of what makes sense for an
> OEM such as Apple to sell.
>
> Fact: most people---the VAST majority---don't ever modify the computers
> they buy.

Because manufacturers tought them so.

For laptops it was once totally normal to have an easy removable battery
- so if the battery started wearing out after a couple of years, you
could easily replace it. Now it is the standard to have the battery
built in and replacing it is just not an option.

The same applies to memory - first manufacturers started soldering RAM
to the mainboard. Then some started using SSDs as part of the mainboard
which led to used mac books offered with "SSD not working" but without
any chance for repair if you don't have access to a sophisticated
workshop which can replace BGA parts. So the whole device was garbage
just because one single part failed.

Also mobile devices once could be opened easily by just removing some
screws - I still have my old HTC Wildfire S in my drawer which is not
that thick as one might expect, but you can dismantle it just using a
screwdriver and maybe a spudger to help separating plastic parts. But
nothing is glued together and the battery can just be swapped if needed.
The argument that mobile devices "must" be glued together because
customers ask for that design is just marketing BS. In fact it is just
much cheaper to use glue instead of screws.

An interesting video about the "anti repair" history of Apple over 15
years by Hugh Jeffreys: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3e-b-7jCYk>

And yes, this is just an example. Many other manufacturers are not much
better. Just think of the Microsoft Surface devices which are more or
less completely unservicable as they are also glued together.

Of course you might argue that this only developed to that point,
because customers did not want to modify or repair their devices anyway.
But I think it is the opposite: because customers learn, that modifying
or repairing devices became expensive or nearly impossible (and therefor
very expensive) they stop asking for that. If you have to pay 50% or
more of the original price to get a new display or to have the built in
battery or SSD fixed, you will likely just buy a new device instead of
getting the old one repaired.

I also have an older tablet here: Samsung SM-T585. It still works fine
using LineageOS. And the older tablets are quite easy to open and repair
as well, you just need a spudger to separate the back from the device,
which is a bit fiddly, but not impossible:

<https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Samsung+Galaxy+Tab+A+10.1+Battery+Replacement/98594>

[Arno Welzel]

Alan, 2023-11-12 01:39:

> On 2023-11-11 15:07, Carlos E. R. wrote:

[...]

>> The computer industry and users owes a huge lot to gamers. Thanks to
>> them, the personal computer grew in power tremendously, fast, and
>> affordable.
>>
>> Heh, a green text display was good enough for business :-D
>>
>
> The computer industry owes more to Apple.
>
> It was the Apple II (and VisiCalc) that first gave businesses a reason
> to buy personal computers...

Yes - the first. But after the Apple II the industry has seen many, many
other very important inventions as well.

> ...and IBM got so frightened that they rushed out a computer that could
> be copied...
>
> ...running an OS that they'd only licensed.

And then came Linux which now runs the majority of online services and
is used as the foundation of many mobile devices ;-).

It may still not be that important on the desktop - but even Microsoft
has a tutorial how to install Linux:

<https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/linux/install>

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-11-12 10:26, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Alan, 2023-11-12 01:39:
>
>> On 2023-11-11 15:07, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> [...]
>>> The computer industry and users owes a huge lot to gamers. Thanks to
>>> them, the personal computer grew in power tremendously, fast, and
>>> affordable.
>>>
>>> Heh, a green text display was good enough for business :-D
>>>
>>
>> The computer industry owes more to Apple.
>>
>> It was the Apple II (and VisiCalc) that first gave businesses a reason
>> to buy personal computers...
>
> Yes - the first. But after the Apple II the industry has seen many, many
> other very important inventions as well.

The contributions from Apple that I saw were tiny. Nobody bough Apple
products around here, way too expensive. The (PC) industry owes much
more to IBM, and to gamers.

People when asked knew about Lotus 123, that was the big game changer.
Visicalc? Never heard of it. Yeah, maybe the designers of 123 knew it,
maybe intimately. Joe public? No.

>
>> ...and IBM got so frightened that they rushed out a computer that could
>> be copied...
>>
>> ...running an OS that they'd only licensed.
>
> And then came Linux which now runs the majority of online services and
> is used as the foundation of many mobile devices ;-).
>
> It may still not be that important on the desktop - but even Microsoft
> has a tutorial how to install Linux:
>
> <https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/linux/install>
>
>

--

Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-11-12 10:23, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Alan, 2023-11-11 22:40:
>
>> On 2023-11-11 13:19, Arno Welzel wrote:
> [...]
>>> But my point is: even if it is a niche, it is not *non* *existant*. "PC
>>> gamers" maybe a niche but a quite rich one, similar to a certain type of
>>> sports cars - not for everyone but vendors can live quite well with the
>>> sales anyway.
>>
>> But the whole point of this was a discussion of what makes sense for an
>> OEM such as Apple to sell.
>>
>> Fact: most people---the VAST majority---don't ever modify the computers
>> they buy.
>
> Because manufacturers tought them so.
>
> For laptops it was once totally normal to have an easy removable battery
> - so if the battery started wearing out after a couple of years, you
> could easily replace it. Now it is the standard to have the battery
> built in and replacing it is just not an option.

It is, but much more difficult. You have to open up the laptop, many
screws and tiny cables, and it is possible the battery is glued, even
soldered.

I have a Compaq laptop with replaceable battery. I did replace it at
least once. It is now dead again. I now use that laptop without
batteries for watching videos while I use the static bike. That laptop
is very robust, its is twice or thrice as thick as a modern one, which
allows it to have wonderful speakers. It as good sound.

I replaced the internal hard disk with an SSD on my previous travel
laptop. It was not difficult.

>
> The same applies to memory - first manufacturers started soldering RAM
> to the mainboard. Then some started using SSDs as part of the mainboard
> which led to used mac books offered with "SSD not working" but without
> any chance for repair if you don't have access to a sophisticated
> workshop which can replace BGA parts. So the whole device was garbage
> just because one single part failed.

A shame.

Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[candycanearter07]

The worst part to me is how they purposely lock you out of features in a
way that just makes it look defective, making the repairer look bad if
they used a third party shop.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

[Arno Welzel]

Carlos E. R., 2023-11-12 13:17:

> On 2023-11-12 10:26, Arno Welzel wrote:

[...]

>>> It was the Apple II (and VisiCalc) that first gave businesses a reason
>>> to buy personal computers...
>>
>> Yes - the first. But after the Apple II the industry has seen many, many
>> other very important inventions as well.
>
> The contributions from Apple that I saw were tiny. Nobody bough Apple
> products around here, way too expensive. The (PC) industry owes much
> more to IBM, and to gamers.
>
> People when asked knew about Lotus 123, that was the big game changer.
> Visicalc? Never heard of it. Yeah, maybe the designers of 123 knew it,
> maybe intimately. Joe public? No.

Visicalc was the very first spreadsheet of it's kind and you may just
not know it any longer since it was already invented in 1979 with the
last release in 1983. So if you are born in the 1980ies you may of
course never heard of it. But "Joe pulic" likely also never used an
Apple II at that time.

But I agree that it was not Apple which "invented" that - the idea of
having a spreadsheet which allows to put numbers and formulars in a
table is something people come up with at some point anyway. Visicalc
was the first public known implementation - but there were others as
well like Microsoft Multiplan which evolved to Excel, Lotus 1-2-3 and
Framework by Ashton Tate which did not only include spreadsheets but
other applications as well.

JFTR: Except VisiCalc I used nearly all of that stuff in the 1980ies
myself ;-)

[Alan]

So you were rebutting something that no one was claiming.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 2023-11-12 17:43, Arno Welzel wrote:
> Carlos E. R., 2023-11-12 13:17:
>
>> On 2023-11-12 10:26, Arno Welzel wrote:
> [...]
>>>> It was the Apple II (and VisiCalc) that first gave businesses a reason
>>>> to buy personal computers...
>>>
>>> Yes - the first. But after the Apple II the industry has seen many, many
>>> other very important inventions as well.
>>
>> The contributions from Apple that I saw were tiny. Nobody bough Apple
>> products around here, way too expensive. The (PC) industry owes much
>> more to IBM, and to gamers.
>>
>> People when asked knew about Lotus 123, that was the big game changer.
>> Visicalc? Never heard of it. Yeah, maybe the designers of 123 knew it,
>> maybe intimately. Joe public? No.
>
> Visicalc was the very first spreadsheet of it's kind and you may just
> not know it any longer since it was already invented in 1979 with the
> last release in 1983. So if you are born in the 1980ies you may of
> course never heard of it. But "Joe pulic" likely also never used an
> Apple II at that time.

No, I was born significantly earlier. It was not known here because
basically nobody here bought Apples. At the time, they bought Sinclairs
and Spectrums. Or nothing. The revolution here started with the PC and
those two.

A teacher at university took us to a room where they were testing
aerials for the navy. He wanted to show some computer results or tests;
he was at the back of the room and told those near the Apple something
to turn it on (the monitor, the computer itself was running). We did not
know how. He had to move to the front and do it himself. It was
illustrative for all. :-)


A year or three later I was shopping for my first computer. The chaps at
the student association advised: do not buy an Apple (Mac something or
other, I think it was). You will be alone. We can provide you with
software for the PC, but we have nothing on Apples. On PCs, we share
everything, we have a lot.

It might have been different in your country, I have no idea.

>
> But I agree that it was not Apple which "invented" that - the idea of
> having a spreadsheet which allows to put numbers and formulars in a
> table is something people come up with at some point anyway. Visicalc
> was the first public known implementation - but there were others as
> well like Microsoft Multiplan which evolved to Excel, Lotus 1-2-3 and
> Framework by Ashton Tate which did not only include spreadsheets but
> other applications as well.
>
> JFTR: Except VisiCalc I used nearly all of that stuff in the 1980ies
> myself ;-)
>
>

--

Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Alan]

What a conceit you have.

Everyone is just a sheep...

...but you.