tickets on phones

[Amon Toestep]

As a particular instance of a gripe in an earlier thread about vendors
forcing use of particular technologies, does anyone have experience
buying NHL tickets and attending without use of a modern smart phone?

I bought tickets to see a Canadiens game from ticketmaster Canada. Their
website seemed only to offer a "mobile ticket" option wherein your
"phone is your ticket". (And naturally I could find no way to avoid
ticketmaster, but that's another issue.)

My (Android) phone's old, doesn't have room for new apps, and can't use
the play store or google wallet. It is possible to access something like
a ticket record with a normal mobile web browser (without their app),
but I'm not sure if it would get me through the gate. Unlike, say,
Amtrak, they won't let you download a pdf with a bar card they can scan.
In fact, their documentation explicitly says that screenshots of
barcodes will not work (they seem almost proud of the fact). And they
don't even give a bar code but only numbers and letters with "Barcode"
as a label if you follow the ticket links to the very end.

But in an earlier ticket link it has an animation with two vertical
lines swinging back and forth like Cylon eyes. Could the animation be
encoding the ticket information in a way the arena's scanners would pick
up, or might this only be what you get if your browser is not adequate?

Ticketmaster.ca support did suggest I could switch to a will call ticket
but only if I wait until two days before the game before requesting
that. It's part of a trip with my son. Maybe I'll do that, but it would
be nice to have some assurance before we go that we'd be let in.

Had similar up front behavior buying hockey tickets to see the
Springfield Thunderbirds (not ticketmaster) where their online crap
insists you'll need your ticket in google wallet, but it ended up being
a non-issue. You just ignore everyone you deal with online and go
straight to the box office before the game. They print your tickets
without you having to do anything special with websites, apps, or
service reps.

Anyone have experience with hockey (especially Montreal's Bell Centre)
or music tickets in the last couple years? Things seem to have gotten
out of hand.

[D]

I mean, if it's QR can't you just print it? Don't live in the US so don't
know how the system works or if they put in any blocks or laws against
showing them a QR on a piece of paper.

[Julius Bernotas]

Hello. I would like to share a somewhat similar old smartphone story.
It is related to Germany. In 2019 comdirect bank (not
existing anymore) decided to drop support for confirming online banking
operations using tan numbers printed on a sheet of paper. I understand
it is a good move of the bank regarding the fact that confirming banking
operations using tan numbers printed on a sheet of paper doesn't conform
to todays security standards anymore. Nevertheless if the banks customer
wanted to continue using online banking he or she was left with two
options: Install an app provided by the bank oh his / her smartphone
or buy a key generator, a standalone electronic device, for 8 Euro from
the bank. No other way to do a bank transfer or to fetch a bank record.

[Nyssa]

I'll be interested in any answers you get for this.

I have *no* cell phone at all, smart or otherwise,
which seems to mean that I'm now locked out of attending
any sort of live hockey game at the pro level. Or a lot
of other events for that matter.

From what I've been hearing some arenas will not
even accept cash for concession or any other purchases.
I don't like the way this is going at all.

Nyssa, who might have to stick to watching hockey
on radio for the rest of her life

[D]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024, Nyssa wrote:

> I have *no* cell phone at all, smart or otherwise,

How come you don't have a phone? Is it a conscious choice, if so, why
did you choose that life style and what are the benefits?

> From what I've been hearing some arenas will not
> even accept cash for concession or any other purchases.

You should probably consider moving to a more cash positive country. I
think germany is the most cash positive country in the EU, but I could
be wrong.

Not using cash more often is one of my privacy sins. I wish I would, but
for some reason I am not as bothered by a credit card, as by a smart
phone (I don't own a smart phone).

> I don't like the way this is going at all.

Neither do I.

[Scott Alfter]

In article <jpkplx1...@panix5.panix.com>,

Amon Toestep <am...@void.nil> wrote:
>My (Android) phone's old, doesn't have room for new apps, and can't use
>the play store or google wallet. It is possible to access something like
>a ticket record with a normal mobile web browser (without their app),
>but I'm not sure if it would get me through the gate. Unlike, say,
>Amtrak, they won't let you download a pdf with a bar card they can scan.
>In fact, their documentation explicitly says that screenshots of
>barcodes will not work (they seem almost proud of the fact). And they
>don't even give a bar code but only numbers and letters with "Barcode"
>as a label if you follow the ticket links to the very end.

Having bought tickets through Ticketmaster (US, but it's probably the same
elsewhere) somewhat recently, I noticed that tickets for one event had a
constantly-changing QR code, as if it was some mashup of a QR code and TOTP.
That's why you can't bring a printout. They probably imagine it's more
"secure" somehow.

--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

[Nyssa]

D wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2024, Nyssa wrote:
>
>> I have *no* cell phone at all, smart or otherwise,
>
> How come you don't have a phone? Is it a conscious choice,
> if so, why did you choose that life style and what are the
> benefits?

A landline is just fine. I'm here 90+% of the time.
And there is email for a quick note.

There is no one that needs 24/7 constant contact with me
for that small percentage that I'm out and about running
errands or whatever. Why pay for something I don't need?

>
>> From what I've been hearing some arenas will not
>> even accept cash for concession or any other purchases.
>
> You should probably consider moving to a more cash
> positive country. I think germany is the most cash
> positive country in the EU, but I could be wrong.

Germany used to be very pro-cash, but from the information
I'm getting these days, that's changed...a lot.

>
> Not using cash more often is one of my privacy sins. I
> wish I would, but for some reason I am not as bothered by
> a credit card, as by a smart phone (I don't own a smart
> phone).
>
>> I don't like the way this is going at all.
>
> Neither do I.
>

Best thing about cash, you can't overspend. :) You run
out, you stop buying until you can re-supply.

Nyssa, who also figures if she did get a smartphone,
neither of the two top OSs would be anything she'd want
to use...Google is untrustworthy and Apple is too over-
priced and if she went with a Linux phone, none of
these corporate-pushed specific apps would work on it
anyway

[Nyssa]

Scott Alfter wrote:

> In article <jpkplx1...@panix5.panix.com>,
> Amon Toestep <am...@void.nil> wrote:
>>My (Android) phone's old, doesn't have room for new apps,
>>and can't use the play store or google wallet. It is
>>possible to access something like a ticket record with a
>>normal mobile web browser (without their app), but I'm not
>>sure if it would get me through the gate. Unlike, say,
>>Amtrak, they won't let you download a pdf with a bar card
>>they can scan. In fact, their documentation explicitly
>>says that screenshots of barcodes will not work (they seem
>>almost proud of the fact). And they don't even give a bar
>>code but only numbers and letters with "Barcode" as a
>>label if you follow the ticket links to the very end.
>
> Having bought tickets through Ticketmaster (US, but it's
> probably the same elsewhere) somewhat recently, I noticed
> that tickets for one event had a constantly-changing QR
> code, as if it was some mashup of a QR code and TOTP.
> That's why you can't bring a printout. They probably
> imagine it's more "secure" somehow.
>

I think a lot (most?) of these so-called protections are
geared not for the customer's convenience, but to make
it impossible to give away or sell your ticket to a third
party without going through the original vendor...and
paying even more fees for the ability to do so.

Nyssa, who always looks for the money flow

[Computer Nerd Kev]

Nyssa <Ny...@logicalinsight.net> wrote:
> D wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Feb 2024, Nyssa wrote:
>>
>>> I have *no* cell phone at all, smart or otherwise,
>>
>> How come you don't have a phone? Is it a conscious choice,
>> if so, why did you choose that life style and what are the
>> benefits?
>
> A landline is just fine. I'm here 90+% of the time.
> And there is email for a quick note.
>
> There is no one that needs 24/7 constant contact with me
> for that small percentage that I'm out and about running
> errands or whatever. Why pay for something I don't need?

Same here, and there's an answering machine for when I am out,
which seems to be what many people who do carry a mobile phone now
send most callers to anyway, rather defeating the purpose. On the
down side the landline hardly manages 90+% up time, and the phone
exchange it connects to has been broken for at least the last
couple of days at the moment actually. Some people I know use
mobiles but not the the internet, so email isn't a universal
fall-back either.

I do have a dumb mobile phone for use as last resort, but I only
turn it on when I need it and don't give out the number. Still the
cheapest SIM card suitable for such non-use (on a network with good
rural coverage) has gone from costing me $5/year to $15/year.

> Best thing about cash, you can't overspend. :) You run
> out, you stop buying until you can re-supply.

Personally I also like simply knowing what I'm spending, without
lots of confusing fees charged by the seller, or the bank, or the
card company. With new contactless card payments in Australia it's
not even possible to know exactly what fee you'll be charged since
the seller makes the decision about which transaction method to
use. Security issues with contactless and cards in general are
another significant turn-off. However I do find ATMs very handy. I
know one man who still refuses even to use them.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _# | Note: I won't see posts made from Google Groups |

[D]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024, Nyssa wrote:

>> How come you don't have a phone? Is it a conscious choice,
>> if so, why did you choose that life style and what are the
>> benefits?
>
> A landline is just fine. I'm here 90+% of the time.
> And there is email for a quick note.

Got it! I misunderstood. I thought you didn't even have a land line, so
that's what made me curious.

Where I live, it is no longer possible to get land lines, so I have a
dumbphone which I very seldom bring with me when I leave my apartment.

> There is no one that needs 24/7 constant contact with me
> for that small percentage that I'm out and about running
> errands or whatever. Why pay for something I don't need?

Sounds very reasonable.

>> You should probably consider moving to a more cash
>> positive country. I think germany is the most cash
>> positive country in the EU, but I could be wrong.
>
> Germany used to be very pro-cash, but from the information
> I'm getting these days, that's changed...a lot.

What a shame!

> Nyssa, who also figures if she did get a smartphone,
> neither of the two top OSs would be anything she'd want
> to use...Google is untrustworthy and Apple is too over-
> priced and if she went with a Linux phone, none of
> these corporate-pushed specific apps would work on it
> anyway

I know an open source/GDPR lawyer who uses graphene and linux for 95% of
his work. For his clients that demand windows, he has an old laptop in a
locker with word on it which he uses only for those clients. The
majority he uses linux.

[D]

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024, Scott Alfter wrote:

> In article <jpkplx1...@panix5.panix.com>,
> Amon Toestep <am...@void.nil> wrote:
>> My (Android) phone's old, doesn't have room for new apps, and can't use
>> the play store or google wallet. It is possible to access something like
>> a ticket record with a normal mobile web browser (without their app),
>> but I'm not sure if it would get me through the gate. Unlike, say,
>> Amtrak, they won't let you download a pdf with a bar card they can scan.
>> In fact, their documentation explicitly says that screenshots of
>> barcodes will not work (they seem almost proud of the fact). And they
>> don't even give a bar code but only numbers and letters with "Barcode"
>> as a label if you follow the ticket links to the very end.
>
> Having bought tickets through Ticketmaster (US, but it's probably the same
> elsewhere) somewhat recently, I noticed that tickets for one event had a
> constantly-changing QR code, as if it was some mashup of a QR code and TOTP.
> That's why you can't bring a printout. They probably imagine it's more
> "secure" somehow.

In _theory_ it should be possible to find out how often it changes, and
what the tolerances are and depending on those variables to time it in
case you don't live too far away. ;)

Print out a QR with the time based component pre-set for the time of your
arrival. If the tolerance is 15 minutes and the lines predictable it might
work.

On the other hand, probably way too much work.

What I do in circumstances that require this, and when I'm not going by
myself, is to have a friend (or wife) fiddle around with it on my behalf.

[Amon Toestep]

D <nos...@example.net> writes:

> On Mon, 12 Feb 2024, Amon Toestep wrote:
>
>>
>> As a particular instance of a gripe in an earlier thread about vendors
>> forcing use of particular technologies, does anyone have experience
>> buying NHL tickets and attending without use of a modern smart phone?

...

>> But in an earlier ticket link it has an animation with two vertical
>> lines swinging back and forth like Cylon eyes. Could the animation be
>> encoding the ticket information in a way the arena's scanners would pick
>> up, or might this only be what you get if your browser is not adequate?
>>

...

>>
>> Anyone have experience with hockey (especially Montreal's Bell Centre)
>> or music tickets in the last couple years? Things seem to have gotten
>> out of hand.
>>
>
> I mean, if it's QR can't you just print it? Don't live in the US so
> don't know how the system works or if they put in any blocks or laws
> against showing them a QR on a piece of paper.

At the time I wasn't even getting a QR code. But it seems that it's
an animation like what Scott experienced.

[Amon Toestep]

sc...@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) writes:

> In article <jpkplx1...@panix5.panix.com>,
> Amon Toestep <am...@void.nil> wrote:
>>My (Android) phone's old, doesn't have room for new apps, and can't use
>>the play store or google wallet. It is possible to access something like
>>a ticket record with a normal mobile web browser (without their app),
>>but I'm not sure if it would get me through the gate. Unlike, say,
>>Amtrak, they won't let you download a pdf with a bar card they can scan.
>>In fact, their documentation explicitly says that screenshots of
>>barcodes will not work (they seem almost proud of the fact). And they
>>don't even give a bar code but only numbers and letters with "Barcode"
>>as a label if you follow the ticket links to the very end.
>
> Having bought tickets through Ticketmaster (US, but it's probably the same
> elsewhere) somewhat recently, I noticed that tickets for one event had a
> constantly-changing QR code, as if it was some mashup of a QR code and TOTP.
> That's why you can't bring a printout. They probably imagine it's more
> "secure" somehow.

Thanks, I needed this much hinting to decide it was worthwhile to upgrade
my browser. Taking the latest Fennec from F-Droid I did see the animated
sliding vertical bars again, but this time there is indeed a QR code,
which does look like it's changing.

That's kind of a relief. This will probably scan there. The only risk
comes in whether I can get fast enough data in Quebec for it to work
properly. But I feel re-assured. At least I'll have a good idea after
crossing the border whether it will work or not, and if it doesn't I can
try the convert to will call option.

I don't like their system, but I guess I'll give it a C-. At least they
gave a thought to provide a fallback that works with a regular firefox
program instead of requiring their app and google's wallet program.

[Amon Toestep]

Nyssa <Ny...@LogicalInsight.net> writes:

> Scott Alfter wrote:
>> Having bought tickets through Ticketmaster (US, but it's
>> probably the same elsewhere) somewhat recently, I noticed
>> that tickets for one event had a constantly-changing QR
>> code, as if it was some mashup of a QR code and TOTP.
>> That's why you can't bring a printout. They probably
>> imagine it's more "secure" somehow.
>>
> I think a lot (most?) of these so-called protections are
> geared not for the customer's convenience, but to make
> it impossible to give away or sell your ticket to a third
> party without going through the original vendor...and
> paying even more fees for the ability to do so.
>

Yes, you likely are correct. Sell and transfer links feature quite
prominently on the ticket pages. The only thing they want you to see
more clearly is that you can't use a printout or screenshot of the QR
code animation.

It was the similar when I bought AHL tickets that claimed to require an
App and google wallet. They made sure to give prominent instructions on
how to re-sell your tickets within their system.

[Amon Toestep]

Julius Bernotas <gaussi...@tilde.pink> writes:

> On 2024-02-12, Amon Toestep <am...@void.nil> wrote:
>>
>> As a particular instance of a gripe in an earlier thread about vendors
>> forcing use of particular technologies, does anyone have experience
>> buying NHL tickets and attending without use of a modern smart phone?
>>
>> I bought tickets to see a Canadiens game from ticketmaster Canada. Their
>> website seemed only to offer a "mobile ticket" option wherein your
>> "phone is your ticket". (And naturally I could find no way to avoid
>> ticketmaster, but that's another issue.)
>>

...

>> Anyone have experience with hockey (especially Montreal's Bell Centre)
>> or music tickets in the last couple years? Things seem to have gotten
>> out of hand.
>
> Hello. I would like to share a somewhat similar old smartphone story.
> It is related to Germany. In 2019 comdirect bank (not
> existing anymore) decided to drop support for confirming online banking
> operations using tan numbers printed on a sheet of paper. I understand
> it is a good move of the bank regarding the fact that confirming banking
> operations using tan numbers printed on a sheet of paper doesn't conform
> to todays security standards anymore. Nevertheless if the banks customer
> wanted to continue using online banking he or she was left with two
> options: Install an app provided by the bank oh his / her smartphone
> or buy a key generator, a standalone electronic device, for 8 Euro from
> the bank. No other way to do a bank transfer or to fetch a bank record.

That's disappointing. The policy is much like my work's options for two
factor authentication. But to expect that of the general populace makes
no sense to me.

It surprises me because, at least with regards to this issue, I feel
pretty good about the banks I've dealt with. It seems like they have
what I'm guessing are sensible but convenient security policies that
don't assume too much.

For instance, at my new bank I go to the branch for coins for laundry
and withdraw some cash at the same time. The teller simply asks my name
and hands me the coins and money. I asked her how she knows I'm who I
say I am, and she points out that she has my picture on her computer to
compare to my face. Maybe there's a privacy issue there. I don't know
what else they do with the photo. But it's a nice simple transaction for
me. When I was younger I remember always needing to at least know my
account number.

And then there's how personal cheques seem to work without security
problems, at least none I know about. I've never really understood how
the security works with personal cheques -- seems like they're a way to
distribute a copy of my signature for forging along with my account
number. But I never hear anything about cheque fraud from this. Compare
to metal post boxes on the side of the road. In a nearby town it got so
bad, the people breaking them open and using letter information for
fraud or identity theft, that the post office got a message out around
town to come and mail anything sensitive at the post office. Is the
basis for personal cheque security that we only pay non-crooks with
them?

[Rich]

If they can keep scalper sales within their system, then they can be
sure to take a cut of the action.

If you could print out the QR code and sell that printout outside their
system, they would not be able to take their cut of the action.

[Nyssa]

Ditto here, though I do have an ancient machine I built
mid-1990s that I have MSDOS, Win3.1, and an old Linux
distro installed on it. :)

Your lawyer buddy probably could get away with using
OpenOffice or LibreOffice on his Linux partition and
save in the Word (SPIT!) format for those clients who
still think Windows is da bomb.

Nyssa, who has been using some flavor of *ix since
1982

[D]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024, Nyssa wrote:

> Ditto here, though I do have an ancient machine I built
> mid-1990s that I have MSDOS, Win3.1, and an old Linux
> distro installed on it. :)
>
> Your lawyer buddy probably could get away with using
> OpenOffice or LibreOffice on his Linux partition and
> save in the Word (SPIT!) format for those clients who
> still think Windows is da bomb.

Sadly no. I asked him about it, and apparently there is something that
makes that strategy untenable for a lawyer.

[Bob Eager]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 09:45:39 -0500, Nyssa wrote:

> Your lawyer buddy probably could get away with using OpenOffice or
> LibreOffice on his Linux partition and save in the Word (SPIT!) format
> for those clients who still think Windows is da bomb.

Unfortunately, the compatibility isn't that good. Even less so with
Impress vs. PowerPoint. So I keep a Windows machine around.

(also for the NI-VISA applications that work with my bench equipment)

>
> Nyssa, who has been using some flavor of *ix since 1982

Bob, who has been using some flavour of UNIX since 1975



--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

[Nyssa]

Bob Eager wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 09:45:39 -0500, Nyssa wrote:
>
>> Your lawyer buddy probably could get away with using
>> OpenOffice or LibreOffice on his Linux partition and save
>> in the Word (SPIT!) format for those clients who still
>> think Windows is da bomb.
>
> Unfortunately, the compatibility isn't that good. Even
> less so with Impress vs. PowerPoint. So I keep a Windows
> machine around.
>
> (also for the NI-VISA applications that work with my bench
> equipment)
>
>>
>> Nyssa, who has been using some flavor of *ix since 1982
>
> Bob, who has been using some flavour of UNIX since 1975
>

You win! :)

Nyssa, who bows to the even more experienced person

[Amon Toestep]

Not feeling tenderhearted towards ticketmaster, but if scalpers could
sell QR codes we'd have the problem of them reselling the same one to
multiple people. In theory the normal old tickets could be duplicated,
but I don't recall hearing of that.

[Bob Eager]

The more important thing for me is NI-VISA. There is not much support on
FreeBSD, so I have to use Windows for that... if I had time, I'd do
something myself.

[Rich]

This is possible (and for some subset of scalpers, likely).
Ticketmaster isn't likely to build a 'moving qr code' just because
scalpers might otherwise try to sell the same qr printout more than
once. Ticketmaster would be more motivated by being able to "apple app
store" the whole scalping process and take their 30% cut (or whatever
their cut is) by being the "only middleman in town".

> In theory the normal old tickets could be duplicated, but I don't
> recall hearing of that.

Nor have I, although I don't have much 'contact' with the scalper
world, so not having heard is not proof of "did not happen". But the
same 'motivation' to duplicate would have still existed for old
standard tickets, so possible lack of duplication might mean the
scalpers valued their reputation more than the extra profit of selling
duplicate tickets.

[Dave Yeo]

Amon Toestep wrote:
> Not feeling tenderhearted towards ticketmaster, but if scalpers could
> sell QR codes we'd have the problem of them reselling the same one to
> multiple people. In theory the normal old tickets could be duplicated,
> but I don't recall hearing of that.

I've heard of counterfeit tickets, which were rejected when the
purchaser tried to use them.
It has been a while so don't remember much.
Dave