Color in Future Versions of Pine?

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Rocky Giannini

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Jul 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/7/97
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Hi,

Are there plans to implement color for xterms and VT-100 terminal emulators
in future versions of Pine? For example, several UNIX news readers (slrn,
tin, etc.) display normal text in one color, quoted text in another, and
signatures in another etc.

Thanks in advance!
-Rocky

--
Rocky Giannini
UMUC Unix and VMS Systems


Robin S. Socha

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Jul 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/7/97
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>> On 7 Jul 1997 12:01:45 -0700, ro...@apollo.umuc.edu (Rocky
>> Giannini) said:

RG> Hi, Are there plans to implement color for xterms and VT-100
RG> terminal emulators in future versions of Pine? For example,
RG> several UNIX news readers (slrn, tin, etc.) display normal text
RG> in one color, quoted text in another, and signatures in another
RG> etc.

xterm -bg darkgoldenrod -fg lightwhite -e pine &

Otherwise, use mutt. It's the Better Mailer [tm], anyway...

Later,
Robin


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--
Robin S. Socha,
Political Science Dept., Bonn University, Bonn
In the doughnut way of life, the core is fixed and the bounded space
around the core is where we make the difference. (Charles Handy)

n...@noadsplease.ii.com

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Jul 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/8/97
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On 7 Jul 1997, Robin S. Socha wrote:
> Otherwise, use mutt. It's the Better Mailer [tm], anyway...

I'm curious what makes mutt better than pine. Does it support
IMAP? Is there a Win95 version of it? Can you change the From
header while in the midst of composing a message? Does it
support folder formats that are compatible with Pine? If the
answer to all these is yes, I'll try it out!

Thanks,
Nancy

-- /
.-. /
/ \ .-. .-. /
/ \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ /
/Nancy McGough--Infinite Ink/---\---/-\---/---\http://www.ii.com/
\ / \ / `-' `-' \ / \ /
\ / `-' `-' `-'
`-'


Robin S. Socha

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Jul 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/8/97
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>"NMG"=Nancy McGough writes:

NMG> On 7 Jul 1997, Robin S. Socha wrote:
>> Otherwise, use mutt. It's the Better Mailer [tm], anyway...

NMG> I'm curious what makes mutt better than pine.

Take a look at:

http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/index.html

Sven is the one to ask these questions, but...

NMG> Does it support IMAP?

AFAIK it should in a week or so. That's the last thing I've heard.

NMG> Is there a Win95 version of it?

No, but it does support scripts, so you can always say fdisk to get
rid of MustDie95.

NMG> Can you change the From header while in the midst of composing a
NMG> message?

Now, this is something worth discussion. Honestly, I love your filtering
faq. To me, it was invaluable. However, I don't agree with forging headers
the way you do (or is that really your FQDN?). Anyway, one should not mess
with the header, should one?

NMG> Does it support folder formats that are compatible with Pine?

Sure.

NMG> If the answer to all these is yes, I'll try it out!

Ok, so these are the questions you have. I, otoh, had a couple of
other requirements:

1. full pgp-support
2. multiple signatures
3. command-line inclusion of mime attachments
4. threading
5. colours (just kidding)
6. easy configuration (dito)

All in all, I'm not saying pine is bad or anything. Don't get me wrong on
this point. I like pine. It's a fine MUA that simply didn't do what I
wanted. mutt could have done it, though. PGP for me was *the* argument in
favour of mutt, as well as threading. YMMV. I'm using Gnus now, anyway,
so I'm beyond petty problems like From headers. I'm trying to get NoCEM
to work... :-/

And... Hey, Sven, mach' keinen Glaubenskrieg draus >;->

Later,
Robin


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--
Robin S. Socha, M.A.


Political Science Dept., Bonn University, Bonn

On the package it said: "Requires MS Windows 3.11 or better"
... so I got myself Linux.

nm+...@ii.com

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Jul 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/8/97
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On 8 Jul 1997, Robin S. Socha wrote:
> NMG> Can you change the From header while in the midst of composing a
> NMG> message?
>
> Now, this is something worth discussion. Honestly, I love your filtering
> faq. To me, it was invaluable. However, I don't agree with forging headers
> the way you do (or is that really your FQDN?). Anyway, one should not mess
> with the header, should one?

I also do not believe in forging headers. The From address I
posted that message with (n...@NoAdsPlease.ii.com) is completely
legit and if you send mail to it, I'll write you back. And the
address I'm using in the From header in this message
(nm+...@ii.com) is also legit. Given the insane amount of junk
email I get, I need to come up with a good solution for filtering
it. Part of my solution involves using different email addresses
for public and private. I need a mailer that will allow me to
easily change my From header between my public and private
addresses.

I hope this really is worth discussing...

Bruce Toews

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Jul 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/9/97
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> Now, this is something worth discussion. Honestly, I love your filtering
> faq. To me, it was invaluable. However, I don't agree with forging headers
> the way you do (or is that really your FQDN?). Anyway, one should not mess
> with the header, should one?

You have made your position ***EXTREMELY*** clear on the subject. Is it
time, perhaps, to move over and allow for those who might, heaven forbid,
disagree?

Bruce


Robin S. Socha

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Jul 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/9/97
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

"n"=<nm+...@ii.com> wrote:
n> On 8 Jul 1997, Robin S. Socha wrote:

n> I also do not believe in forging headers.
[...]
n> Given the insane amount of junk email I get, I need to come up with
n> a good solution for filtering it. Part of my solution involves
n> using different email addresses for public and private. I need a
n> mailer that will allow me to easily change my From header between my
n> public and private addresses.

I doubt the sense of it. IMVHO (and I'm not the one to tell *you*
about filtering), NoCEM is the way to go, and for this, you need
proper PGP-support which pine doesn't offer. Mutt and Gnus do, so
that's why I said both are better mailers.
I understand, why the pine developers aren't going to support PGP, but
I still need it, so...

Sorry if there was any kind of misunderstanding about your account,
btw.

Later,
Robin


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jac...@ilnk.com

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Jul 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/9/97
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nm+...@ii.com wrote:
>
> On 8 Jul 1997, Robin S. Socha wrote:
> > NMG> Can you change the From header while in the midst of composing a
> > NMG> message?
> >
> > Now, this is something worth discussion. Honestly, I love your filtering
> > faq. To me, it was invaluable. However, I don't agree with forging headers
> > the way you do (or is that really your FQDN?). Anyway, one should not mess
> > with the header, should one?
>
> I also do not believe in forging headers. The From address I
> posted that message with (n...@NoAdsPlease.ii.com) is completely
> legit and if you send mail to it, I'll write you back. And the
> address I'm using in the From header in this message
> (nm+...@ii.com) is also legit. Given the insane amount of junk
> email I get, I need to come up with a good solution for filtering
> it. Part of my solution involves using different email addresses
> for public and private. I need a mailer that will allow me to
> easily change my From header between my public and private
> addresses.
>
> I hope this really is worth discussing...
> Thanks,
> Nancy
>
> -- /
> .-. /
> / \ .-. .-. /
> / \ / \ .-. _ .-. / \ /
> /Nancy McGough--Infinite Ink/---\---/-\---/---\http://www.ii.com/
> \ / \ / `-' `-' \ / \ /
> \ / `-' `-' `-'
> `-'
Subject:
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Date:
Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:28:39 PDT
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>SIGNOFF PINE-INFO

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I AM BEING SPAMMED BY THE PINE-INFO GROUP. I HAVE TRIED FOR OVER 3
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PROBLEMS THIS HAS CREATED. I never subscribed to the list, and they say
I'm not on it. Which is the way it ought to be, but they keep sending me
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So if I'm not on the list, then I'm not sending you this message -
everything ought to be OK, huh?Subject:
Error Condition Re: Invalid request
Date:
Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:28:39 PDT
From:
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<list...@u.washington.edu>
To:
jac...@ilnk.com
CC:
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>UNSUBSCRIBE PINE-INFO <jac...@ilnk.com>

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Subject:
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Date:
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From:
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To:
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Subject:
Error Condition Re: Invalid request
Date:
Mon, 7 Jul 1997 05:07:08 PDT
From:
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<list...@u.washington.edu>
To:
jac...@ilnk.com
CC:
owner-p...@cac.washington.edu


>SIGNOFF PINE-INFO

jac...@ilnk.com: You are not subscribed to list
pine...@u.washington.edu

If you wish to contact a person, please send mail to
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To get general help on Listproc, please send the command:

HELP

in the body of the message to list...@u.washington.edu.
PS: Any subsequent requests you might have submitted in the same message
have been ignored.

I AM BEING SPAMMED BY THE PINE-INFO GROUP. I HAVE TRIED FOR OVER 3
MONTHS TO GET OFF THE LIST. NOTHING HAS WORKED. PLEASE DON'T SEND ME ANY
MORE MESSAGES, BUT IF YOU KNOW WHO TO CONTACT OR HOW TO DO IT, JUST SEND
A MESSAGE TO WHOMEVER CAN REMOVE ME FROM THE LIST. MY MAILBOX HAS
CONTAINED OVER 4,000 MESSAGES AT ONE TIME. I DON'T NEED TO TELL YOU WHAT
PROBLEMS THIS HAS CREATED. I never subscribed to the list, and they say
I'm not on it. Which is the way it ought to be, but they keep sending me
mail.

So if I'm not on the list, then I'm not sending you this message -
everything ought to be OK, huh?

jac...@ilnk.com

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Jul 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/9/97
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Rocky Giannini wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Are there plans to implement color for xterms and VT-100 terminal emulators
> in future versions of Pine? For example, several UNIX news readers (slrn,
> tin, etc.) display normal text in one color, quoted text in another, and

> signatures in another etc.
>
> Thanks in advance!
> -Rocky
>
> --
> Rocky Giannini
> UMUC Unix and VMS Systems

Robin S. Socha

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Jul 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/9/97
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>> Regarding Re: mutt vs. pine (Was: Color in Future Versions of
>> Pine?); Bruce Toews <Bto...@usa.net> adds:

[...]


>> Anyway, one should not mess with the header, should one?

BT> You have made your position ***EXTREMELY*** clear on the subject. Is
BT> it time, perhaps, to move over and allow for those who might, heaven
BT> forbid, disagree?

Sure, Bruce. Just what /was/ your argument again?

Later,
Robin


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Sven Guckes

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Jul 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/9/97
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n...@NoAdsPlease.ii.com (Nancy):

> I'm curious what makes mutt better than pine.

OK, here we go..

> Does it support IMAP?

Not yet. Real soon now.

> Is there a Win95 version of it?

No. However, Fefe once compiled it for DOS to be able to read mail folders
with it. I don't expect a real DOS post any time soon, but I fear that once
Mutt-1.0 is released that DOS users will cry out for it.

> Can you change the From header while in the midst of composing a message?

Yes - with "header editing". Just ":set edit_hdrs" before replying
and the header will be part of the edit buffer for your editor.
This allows to change the From: line, too.

> Does it support folder formats that are compatible with Pine?

mutt: mailbox, MMDF, MH, maildir
pine: i forget

> If the answer to all these is yes, I'll try it out!

Well, not all answer were "yes", but you should try it, anyway!

Btw: Mutt also has support for MIME, PGP, and color. :-)

Sven

--
Sven Guckes guc...@math.fu-berlin.de using MUTT 0.77 [970618]| MUTT - a cool
MUTT WOOF! ,, http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/ |mailer for UNIX
MUTT (__/'. http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/vs.elm.html
MUTT /| |\ http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/pictures.html

jac...@ilnk.com

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Jul 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/9/97
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Robin S. Socha wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> "n"=<nm+...@ii.com> wrote:
> n> On 8 Jul 1997, Robin S. Socha wrote:
>
> n> I also do not believe in forging headers.

> [...]
> n> Given the insane amount of junk email I get, I need to come up with
> n> a good solution for filtering it. Part of my solution involves
> n> using different email addresses for public and private. I need a
> n> mailer that will allow me to easily change my From header between my
> n> public and private addresses.
>
> I doubt the sense of it. IMVHO (and I'm not the one to tell *you*
> about filtering), NoCEM is the way to go, and for this, you need
> proper PGP-support which pine doesn't offer. Mutt and Gnus do, so
> that's why I said both are better mailers.
> I understand, why the pine developers aren't going to support PGP, but
> I still need it, so...
>
> Sorry if there was any kind of misunderstanding about your account,
> btw.
>
> Later,
> Robin
>
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> --
> Robin S. Socha, M.A.
> Political Science Dept., Bonn University, Bonn
> On the package it said: "Requires MS Windows 3.11 or better"
> ... so I got myself Linux.

Michael Elkins

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Jul 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/9/97
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On 9 Jul 1997 11:18:30 GMT, Sven Guckes <guc...@math.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>> Does it support IMAP?
>
>Not yet. Real soon now.

I haven't looked at PINE's IMAP support, but I suspect it is much more
functional that Mutt's first go is. Right now there is only basic support
for reading mailboxes and things like searching the body of a message don't
work.

>> Is there a Win95 version of it?
>
>No. However, Fefe once compiled it for DOS to be able to read mail folders
>with it. I don't expect a real DOS post any time soon, but I fear that once
>Mutt-1.0 is released that DOS users will cry out for it.
>
>> Can you change the From header while in the midst of composing a message?
>
>Yes - with "header editing". Just ":set edit_hdrs" before replying
>and the header will be part of the edit buffer for your editor.
>This allows to change the From: line, too.

You can also automatically set arbitrary header fields based on which
mailbox you are reading or who you are sending mail to.

>Btw: Mutt also has support for MIME, PGP, and color. :-)

Threading is also another popular feature.

me
--
Mutt: a mail client for unix systems http://www.cs.hmc.edu/~me/mutt/

Bruce Toews

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Jul 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/9/97
to

> Sure, Bruce. Just what /was/ your argument again?

Thank you. <GRIN> My argument was (and is, will be, etc.) this: We are
seeing more and more portable e-mail addresses. These are pretty darned
useless if we can't put them into the From: header. Also, for the purpose
of Usenet auto-spammers, it would help to slightly mangle the From:
header, always including a note to that effect, of course. If you're blind
you can't just run your eye over a bunch of titles and delete spams at a
glance. And if you're a lowly user on a security-conscious ISP, you don't
always have access to filtering tools such as procmail. I am not
advocating for a moment the forgery of other people's addresses on
outgoing e-mail. I am not advocating conceialing my identity in Usenet. I
am advocating the ability to properly and completely use a portable e-mail
address, and the ability to not be picked up by every bulk-spammer that
sifts through Usenet. Face it. If someone really wants to abuse the system
and start forging headers, keeping the ability out of Pine isn't going to
stop them.

Bruce


Robin S. Socha

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Jul 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/10/97
to

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>> Regarding Re: mutt vs. pine (Was: Color in Future Versions of
>> Pine?); Bruce Toews <Bto...@usa.net> adds:

BT> We are seeing more and more portable e-mail addresses. These are
BT> pretty darned useless if we can't put them into the From:
BT> header.

Okay, since you didn't get it yourself, here's the punchline... Check
my header >;->

BT> Also, for the purpose of Usenet auto-spammers, it would help to
BT> slightly mangle the From: header, always including a note to that
BT> effect, of course.

I still think that this sucks. I don't usually answer these mails and
I think they shouldn't be, because ...

BT> If you're blind you can't just run your eye over a bunch of titles
BT> and delete spams at a glance. And if you're a lowly user on a
BT> security-conscious ISP, you don't always have access to filtering
BT> tools such as procmail.

... this is bordering on nonsense. What's procmail got to do with
security? It reads mail from the spool and puts it into folders in my
homedir. Without the root password, I cannot do much on a u*ix system
(the usual security holes notwithstanding). And an ISP who doesn't do
filtering himself is not good, anyway. There's really quite a lot you
can do *before* you go to forging headers.

[...]
BT> I am advocating the ability to properly and completely use a
BT> portable e-mail address,

Forwarding? But I see your point.

BT> and the ability to not be picked up by every bulk-spammer that
BT> sifts through Usenet. Face it. If someone really wants to abuse
BT> the system and start forging headers, keeping the ability out of
BT> Pine isn't going to stop them.

Sure. But this group has seen too much requests for "changing from:"
imnsho, and not all of them could be from people with as noble a cause
as you. I like the philosophy behind pine's inability to do that job,
but that's a ... philosophical problem >;->

Later,
Robin


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Sven Guckes

unread,
Jul 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM7/17/97
to

vi...@insight.att.com (Vikas Agnihotri):
> Mailbox formats: Does Mutt support the TENEX format?

Hmm, no. Don't think it does. Whatever it is. ;-)

> I switched to tenex format in Pine because I found it to be much faster on
> huge mailbox files i.e. in excess of 1000 messages totalling 5MB or so.

Well, Mutt does threading on a 3,100+ mails mailbox in about ten seconds.

> How about selecting articles based on various criteria? i.e. the Pine ';'
> command. Lets you select and/or sort by size, date, sender, receiver, etc,

The command "limit" does this. Quite powerful (see appended description).

> Threading : How does this work exactly?

Replying to a mail inserts the header line "In-Reply-To" with the mail id of
the previous mail - similar to the "References:" line with posts to Usenet.
This information can be used to build the "threading tree", see page

http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/pics.html

> What if I dont save my outgoing mails at all or save them to a different
> folder? Would the thread tree be broken or allow this kind of skipped
> articles in the thread?

Well, insufficient information can always result in holes. ;-)
But Mutt is smart enough to know about the References lines, too,
so it can make use of all given references to build the tree. :-)

> I really want a MUTT vs. Pine 3.95 comparison since I am a veteran Pine
> user and I want threading and color support which Pine doesnt provide.

OK - here we go:

Mutt-0.79 vs Pine-3.96

Mutt Pine
color yes no
pgp yes no
threading yes no

If anyone wants to help completing the comparison - let me know!

Until then you can read the comparison between ELM2.4PL25 and Mutt-0.79:

http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/vs.elm.html

Have fun!

Sven


=== from the Mutt manual about "searching" and "limiting", too:

4. Searching

Many of Mutt's commands allow you to specify a pattern to match
(limit, tag-pattern, delete-pattern, etc.). There are several ways to
select messages:

~b PATTERN messages which contain PATTERN in the message body
~c USER messages carbon-copied to USER
~d [MIN]-[MAX] messages in a Date range
~f USER messages originating from USER
~i ID message which match ID in the ``Message-ID'' field
~s SUBJECT messages having SUBJECT in the ``Subject'' field.
~t USER messages addressed to USER
all all messages
del deleted messages
flag flagged messages
new new messages
old old messages
repl messages which have been replied to
tag tagged messages
unread unread messages
M-N messages in the range ``M'' through ``N''
M- messages ``M'' and above
-N messages ``N'' and below

Logical AND is performed by specifying more than one criterion. For
example:

~t mutt ~f elkins

would select messages which contain the word ``mutt'' in the list of
recipients and that have the word ``elkins'' in the ``From'' header
field.

Mutt also recognizes the following operators to create more complex
search patterns:

o ! -- logical NOT operator

o | -- logical OR operator

o () -- logical grouping operator

Here is an example illustrating a complex search pattern. This
pattern will select all messages which do not contain ``mutt'' in the
``To'' or ``Cc'' field and which are from ``elkins''.

!(~t mutt|~c mutt) ~f elkins

4.1. Searching by Date

All dates must be in DD/MM/YY format (month and year are optional,
defaulting to the current month and year). An example of a valid
range of dates is:

Limit to messages matching: ~d 20/1/95-31/10

If you omit the minimum (first) date, and just specify ``-DD/MM/YY'',
all messages before the given date will be selected. If you omit the
maximum (second) date, and specify ``DD/MM/YY-'', all messages after
the given date will be selected. If you specify a single date with no
dash (``-''), only messages sent on the given date will be selected.
===

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