Eudora not plain-text friendly?
Rajeev Karunakaran
is plain text.
I want to view all plain text messages in a fixed-width font. The reason
is simple: Things that are supposed to line up will not line up if the
message is viewed using a proportional width font.
Here's an example: The table below will be messed up if you are viewing
this message using a proportional width font:
+-------------+-----------+
| Item | Price |
+-------------+-----------+
| Pen | $1.00 |
| Pencil | $0.50 |
+-------------+-----------+
Here's another example (if you are a programmer): The braces in the
code below will not line up unless you are using a fixed-width font:
if (a < b)
{
if (d > g)
{
c = 3;
}
}
Eudora 5.2 has a checkbox that says "Use proportional font by default".
But this option is useless because turning it off affects not just plain
text messages, but also HTML messages, message headers, and so on.
Here's what I want:
When reading messages, plain-text messages should use a fixed-width font,
and styled-text (HTML) messages should use a proportional-width font.
When I compose messages I should be able to specify whether the message
is a plain-text message or a styled-text message. There should be an
option to specify the default mode (plain-text / styled-text) for the
composer, but I should be able to override the default in the composer,
on a per-message basis. The default font in the composer should be
fixed-width when composing plain-text messages.
When replying to a message, the default mode for the composer should
match the type of message I am replying to. i.e., when replying to a
plain-text message start the composer in plain-text mode. When replying
to a styled-text message start the composer in styled-text mode.
Also, there should be an option to let me use "> " (the > symbol plus
a space) instead of this "excerpt bar" nonsense.
Rajeev G. Karunakaran
Austin, TX
--
All comments and views expressed are my own and in no way represent
those of Motorola Corporation.
Katrina Knight
> I get many nicely formatted HTML messages, but most of the e-mail I get
> is plain text.
> I want to view all plain text messages in a fixed-width font.
> Eudora 5.2 has a checkbox that says "Use proportional font by default".
> But this option is useless because turning it off affects not just plain
> text messages, but also HTML messages, message headers, and so on.
The default font settings apply to all messages that don't specify the
font. If the html messages actually specify the font, the font used should
be the one specified. You can change which font is used in any given
message though. That's what the button that says TT on it is for -
switching between your default proportional and fixed-width fonts.
> When reading messages, plain-text messages should use a fixed-width font,
> and styled-text (HTML) messages should use a proportional-width font.
There's no way to do that. Eudora assumes that when you say you want
somethign to be your default that you mean you want it to be your default
all the time, not just some of the time.
> When I compose messages I should be able to specify whether the message
> is a plain-text message or a styled-text message. There should be an
> option to specify the default mode (plain-text / styled-text) for the
> composer, but I should be able to override the default in the composer,
> on a per-message basis. The default font in the composer should be
> fixed-width when composing plain-text messages.
If you want the default font in the composition window to be fixed-width,
you have two choices. Either set your default to be fixed-width in
general, or create stationery that is set to use your fixed-width font and
use that as your default stationery.
> When replying to a message, the default mode for the composer should
> match the type of message I am replying to.
That is pretty much the way it works. If there's no html in the message
you're replying to, there's not going to be any in the compostion window
unless you put some in. If you want other things to vary depending on
what's in the message you're replying to, stationery is the best way to
accomplish that. You can even choose to have different personalities that
have different default stationery and then use incoming filters to set the
personality of the received messages so that they get replied-to with the
right stationery by default.
> Also, there should be an option to let me use "> " (the > symbol plus
> a space) instead of this "excerpt bar" nonsense.
If you don't like the excerpt bars, you can turn them off. The settings to
do so are described here regularly. Turning them off doesn't change
html block-quoting though. HTML's block quoting style and excerpt bars may
look alike but they are two different things.
--
Katrina
Rajeev Karunakaran
>
>Rajeev Karunakaran <n...@spam.com> wrote:
>> I get many nicely formatted HTML messages, but most of the e-mail I get
>> is plain text.
>
>> I want to view all plain text messages in a fixed-width font.
>
>> Eudora 5.2 has a checkbox that says "Use proportional font by default".
>> But this option is useless because turning it off affects not just plain
>> text messages, but also HTML messages, message headers, and so on.
>
>The default font settings apply to all messages that don't specify the
>font. If the html messages actually specify the font, the font used should
>be the one specified.
Yes, but my point is that this is a defect in Eudora. Eudora apparently
makes no distinction between plain-text messages and HTML messages. I see
this as a deficiency because it does not match the real world.
If I want to view plain-text messages using Courier font, I can specify
"Courier" as the default font, but this has the unfortunate side-effect
of altering the default font of HTML messages also. As a result, many
HTML messages that don't specify a default font, but are intended to be
displayed using a proportional font, get messed up. Because of this,
I have left the default font as proportional.
I think if Eudora wants to be plain-text friendly then it should let me
specify the font for viewing plain-text messages without messing up how
HTML messages are displayed.
>You can change which font is used in any given
>message though. That's what the button that says TT on it is for -
>switching between your default proportional and fixed-width fonts.
>
Two points: First, Eudora ought to have an option for specifying the
font for viewing plain-text messages. That way, I won't have to press
the TT button every time. Second, the TT button is only available when
you double-click a message. If you read messages in what Eudora calls
the "preview area" (i.e., three-pane mode) the TT button is not
available. The TT button is also not available in compose mode.
>> When reading messages, plain-text messages should use a fixed-width font,
>> and styled-text (HTML) messages should use a proportional-width font.
>
>There's no way to do that. Eudora assumes that when you say you want
>somethign to be your default that you mean you want it to be your default
>all the time, not just some of the time.
>
I hope they fix this in the next version, because there are two kinds
of messages in the real world: Plain-text and HTML. You should be able
to specify defaults separately for both.
>> When I compose messages I should be able to specify whether the message
>> is a plain-text message or a styled-text message. There should be an
>> option to specify the default mode (plain-text / styled-text) for the
>> composer, but I should be able to override the default in the composer,
>> on a per-message basis. The default font in the composer should be
>> fixed-width when composing plain-text messages.
>
>If you want the default font in the composition window to be fixed-width,
>you have two choices. Either set your default to be fixed-width in
>general,
That's not an option, because of the issues I have mentioned above.
>or create stationery that is set to use your fixed-width font and
>use that as your default stationery.
>
If I do that then my message apparently is not considered plain-text
anymore. For example, if I press the "Clear Formatting" button the
font changes back to proportional.
>> When replying to a message, the default mode for the composer should
>> match the type of message I am replying to.
>
>That is pretty much the way it works. If there's no html in the message
>you're replying to, there's not going to be any in the compostion window
>unless you put some in.
That's great, but unless the font is fixed-width, I can't compose
plain-text messages, because how do I line things up? (See my previous
message in this thread to see what I mean by "lining things up".)
This is what I mean when I say Eudora is not plain-text friendly.
>If you want other things to vary depending on
>what's in the message you're replying to, stationery is the best way to
>accomplish that. You can even choose to have different personalities that
>have different default stationery and then use incoming filters to set the
>personality of the received messages so that they get replied-to with the
>right stationery by default.
That's a great feature, but it still doesn't make Eudora plain-text
friendly.
>
>> Also, there should be an option to let me use "> " (the > symbol plus
>> a space) instead of this "excerpt bar" nonsense.
>
>If you don't like the excerpt bars, you can turn them off. The settings to
>do so are described here regularly. Turning them off doesn't change
>html block-quoting though. HTML's block quoting style and excerpt bars may
>look alike but they are two different things.
I have seen the .ini settings. I hope Eudora makes this an "official
feature" by supporting it in the GUI. By the way, even with the .ini
settings Eudora will not add a space after the ">". Without the space,
the quoted text will not stand out.
Thanks for your reply, Katrina.
Jan Philips
>Yes, but my point is that this is a defect in Eudora. Eudora apparently
>makes no distinction between plain-text messages and HTML messages.
Yes, they should add an option to do one thing for plain text and
another for HTML.
Stuart Brook
> Yes, but my point is that this is a defect in Eudora. Eudora apparently
> makes no distinction between plain-text messages and HTML messages. I see
> this as a deficiency because it does not match the real world.
Why should it ? HTML messages are the defect, not plain text. HTML is
not good for mail. There are millions of people out there who cannot
read HTML emails because they don't have HTML capable mail clients.
> If I want to view plain-text messages using Courier font, I can specify
> "Courier" as the default font, but this has the unfortunate side-effect
> of altering the default font of HTML messages also. As a result, many
> HTML messages that don't specify a default font, but are intended to be
> displayed using a proportional font, get messed up. Because of this,
> I have left the default font as proportional.
You were told ... if the HTML message requires a font, it should specify
it and not rely on a default font of the email client. I can lay out a
message in a proportional sans serif font like Arial and make it nice,
but say your client uses a proportional serif font, like Century
Schoolbook. That nicely laid out message may now look like crap.
> I think if Eudora wants to be plain-text friendly then it should let me
> specify the font for viewing plain-text messages without messing up how
> HTML messages are displayed.
Remember what came first.
> Two points: First, Eudora ought to have an option for specifying the
> font for viewing plain-text messages. That way, I won't have to press
> the TT button every time. Second, the TT button is only available when
> you double-click a message. If you read messages in what Eudora calls
> the "preview area" (i.e., three-pane mode) the TT button is not
> available. The TT button is also not available in compose mode.
You don't want a workaround do you ... You just want to complain that it
isn't how you want it. How's Eudora supposed to read your mind as to
how you want to compose your mail - text or html ? And don't use the
preview pane. I find the preview pane a bigger "pane in the neck" than
a benefit. Any and all mail clients I use, I turn off the preview pane.
> I hope they fix this in the next version, because there are two kinds
> of messages in the real world: Plain-text and HTML. You should be able
> to specify defaults separately for both.
There's nothing to fix. Bad HTML messages are your problem - not a
fault in Eudora. This is one of the many problems with using HTML for
email.
Then you either want to send Plain Text messages, or HTML message ...
make your mind up.
> That's not an option, because of the issues I have mentioned above.
Of course it's an option.
> If I do that then my message apparently is not considered plain-text
> anymore. For example, if I press the "Clear Formatting" button the
> font changes back to proportional.
Like what is your problem ? You've been told how to fix it, and you go
and hit a button that undoes the fix - of course it does!
> That's a great feature, but it still doesn't make Eudora plain-text
> friendly.
You've got it all backwards ... it is basically a plain text email
client that has added some HTML capability - If you set it up to be a
plain text client, with HTML as your option, then you should do a lot
better.
> >> Also, there should be an option to let me use "> " (the > symbol plus
> >> a space) instead of this "excerpt bar" nonsense.
Turn off "Format = Flowed" in the .ini file.
> I have seen the .ini settings. I hope Eudora makes this an "official
> feature" by supporting it in the GUI. By the way, even with the .ini
> settings Eudora will not add a space after the ">". Without the space,
> the quoted text will not stand out.
Works just fine for me!
meirman
Brook <s_brook...@not.here.for.spam.att.canada.ca> posted:
>
>> I have seen the .ini settings. I hope Eudora makes this an "official
>> feature" by supporting it in the GUI. By the way, even with the .ini
>> settings Eudora will not add a space after the ">". Without the space,
>> the quoted text will not stand out.
I hate it when people put a space after the >. It makes it very hard
to tell which attribution line goes with what. I get mail or posts
from hundreds of people, and I've only had one or two people who do
that, no one lately. So things are pretty good.
>Works just fine for me!
Meirman
If emailing, please let me know whether
or not you are posting the same letter.
Change domain to erols.com, if necessary.
Katrina Knight
> Yes, but my point is that this is a defect in Eudora. Eudora apparently
> makes no distinction between plain-text messages and HTML messages. I see
> this as a deficiency because it does not match the real world.
It isn't a defect in Eudora. It is a defect in the message. If an html
message needs to have a font specified in it, it should have the font
specified. Otherwise your default font SHOULD be the one used. You seem to
be making a lot of fuss over something that is rather easy to deal with
though. What is so hard about pushing the TT button to switch between the
fonts as desired? Some of us manage to do it all the time without a
problem. Also, what is it that makes you think that the distinction
between which messages should be in fixed-width and which in proportional
fonts is related to whether there is html in the message or not? The two
don't usually have much to do with each other.
> Two points: First, Eudora ought to have an option for specifying the
> font for viewing plain-text messages. That way, I won't have to press
> the TT button every time. Second, the TT button is only available when
> you double-click a message. If you read messages in what Eudora calls
> the "preview area" (i.e., three-pane mode) the TT button is not
> available. The TT button is also not available in compose mode.
First, the TT button is very much available in the composition window.
That's one of its main uses. Second, the preview pane is for previewing
the message. If you don't like being constrained by its limited features,
don't use it.
> I hope they fix this in the next version, because there are two kinds
> of messages in the real world: Plain-text and HTML. You should be able
> to specify defaults separately for both.
You are creating a divide that is a lot greater than most people perceive.
It seems like a rather artificial division to me.
> If I do that then my message apparently is not considered plain-text
> anymore. For example, if I press the "Clear Formatting" button the
> font changes back to proportional.
And that matters how? If you send it as plain text, it will be plain text
when sent. What you do to it in the composition windows doesn't matter
there.
> That's great, but unless the font is fixed-width, I can't compose
> plain-text messages, because how do I line things up?
By using the TT button to use your fixed-width font if you don't want to
make it your default font for everything.
>(See my previous
> message in this thread to see what I mean by "lining things up".)
> This is what I mean when I say Eudora is not plain-text friendly.
Eudora is perfectly friendly to plain text. Probably more so than most
other programs I've seen. The problem here is that you're wrapped up in
wanting things to be other than they are to the point where you're
unwilling to make use of Eudora's features.
Have you considered that Eudora might not be the right program for you? It
sounds like you really don't like the way it works. The fact that many of
us like it doesn't mean that it is the right choice for everybody. I don't
know of any programs that work the way you want, but there are a lot of
other choices out there and you might find that one of them does things in
a way you like better.
--
Katrina
Peter H. Granzeau
>>> I want to view all plain text messages in a fixed-width font.
>>
>>> Eudora 5.2 has a checkbox that says "Use proportional font by default".
>>> But this option is useless because turning it off affects not just plain
>>> text messages, but also HTML messages, message headers, and so on.
>>
>>The default font settings apply to all messages that don't specify the
>>font. If the html messages actually specify the font, the font used should
>>be the one specified.
>
>Yes, but my point is that this is a defect in Eudora. Eudora apparently
>makes no distinction between plain-text messages and HTML messages. I see
>this as a deficiency because it does not match the real world.
>
>If I want to view plain-text messages using Courier font, I can specify
>"Courier" as the default font, but this has the unfortunate side-effect
>of altering the default font of HTML messages also. As a result, many
>HTML messages that don't specify a default font, but are intended to be
>displayed using a proportional font, get messed up. Because of this,
>I have left the default font as proportional.
>
>I think if Eudora wants to be plain-text friendly then it should let me
>specify the font for viewing plain-text messages without messing up how
>HTML messages are displayed.
Have you tried using the Microsoft viewer?
Katrina Knight
> On 16 Feb 2003, Rajeev Karunakaran <n...@spam.com> wrote:
>>available. The TT button is also not available in compose mode.
> If 'Tools/Options/Styled Text/Show formatting toolbar' is unchecked,
> the TT button will be missing from the composition window (it's on the
> formatting toolbar).
You can also put it on the main toolbar too if you like.
> I haven't seen that toolbar in the composition window since the day I
> installed the program. Sending styled text / HTML is rude.
That last part is not always true. Sending it to people who haven't asked
for it is rude. Using it when there's a good reason and everybody involved
agrees to it is not rude. Different people have different needs and there
are some things that it makes sense to use html in messages for. (Don't
send any to me without a darn good reason though.)
--
Katrina
Jan Philips
>I haven't seen that toolbar in the composition window since the day I
>installed the program. Sending styled text / HTML is rude.
I have a business client that WANTS everything sent styled. If I
forget and send plain text, he sometimes complains.
Stuart Brook
Poor guy doesn't understand.
Jan Philips
<s_brook...@not.here.for.spam.att.canada.ca> wrote:
>> I have a business client that WANTS everything sent styled. If I
>> forget and send plain text, he sometimes complains.
>
>Poor guy doesn't understand.
I think most of the messages I get - even on mailing lists - are
styled.
Stuart Brook
I'm just the converse ... I get over 100-200 per day and maybe 5 are
styled - thank goodness. I have made it very plain that if people want
to send me html email, then they'd better be prepared to see the raw
html come back to them to show them what it looks like and how much
chaff there is in there.
Stuart
Jan Philips
If you're using Eudora you shouldn't have a problem with styled text.
Plain text is a bit old fashioned.
Stuart Brook
Well, not really ... I refuse to use the MS viewer, so rely on the
internal capabilities. Most of the HTML email I get trashes Eudora's
capabilities, so I end up with half rendered HTML and either heaps of
tags or missing messages. Most of the HTML generated is appalling
anyway ... I started coding HTML 8 years ago and saw the evolution of
bad HTML. It's like bad C code ... really easy to create.
I believe it was the CEO of Sun who said that if you need to send me
mail that contains HTML, then we probably shouldn't be discussing it by
mail anyway.
I loathe HTML email ... it is so bandwidth inefficient.
Stuart
Jan Philips
I disagree with that. I've recently written two paper letters
because a friend of mine has gone off-line for 2-3 months. Going back
is the pits.
Stuart Brook
What he meant was that if you require graphics etc, we probably should
be meeting in person.
Anyway, your choice but I am not convinced that email requires html.
Jan Philips
<s_brook...@not.here.for.spam.att.canada.ca> wrote:
>Anyway, your choice but I am not convinced that email requires html.
I think it is very nice to send URLs that can be clicked on, use bold
and italics, different fonts, etc.
Hauke Fath
> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 04:40:43 GMT, Stuart Brook
> <s_brook...@not.here.for.spam.att.canada.ca> wrote:
>
> >Anyway, your choice but I am not convinced that email requires html.
>
> I think it is very nice to send URLs that can be clicked on,
Eudora makes URLs clickable in plain text. Or do you prefer having
javascript executed behind your back in UCE mail?
Next try...
hauke
--
Wer im Usenet gelesen werden will, sollte leserorientiert schreiben. Wer
nur für sich schreiben will, dem ist mit einem Tagebuch vielleicht
besser geholfen. Gelesen zu werden ist kein Recht, sondern ein Privileg.
(Thore Tams in d.n.s.umgangsformen)
Jan Philips
wrote:
>It may be "old fashioned", but a communication should be able to stand
>on its own. Dressing up a pig doesn't make it not a pig :)
Well, you could just use all caps, like in the days of the Apple II.
Those lower case characters just "dress it up".
Stuart Brook
No additional overhead is required for lower case characters. HTML
doesn't make a message any easier to read (often time makes it harder!)
Jan Philips
wrote:
>It may be "old fashioned", but a communication should be able to stand
>on its own. Dressing up a pig doesn't make it not a pig :)
So do you use Notepad instead of Word? (or the equivalent)
Jan Philips
<s_brook...@not.here.for.spam.att.canada.ca> wrote:
>No additional overhead is required for lower case characters. HTML
>doesn't make a message any easier to read (often time makes it harder!)
So why do books, newspapers, and magazines use things like different
fonts, different sizes, italics, bolding, etc? Do those things make
reading easier or harder? Obviously easier. Why do we use word
processors such as Word and Wordperfect (with those features) instead
of Notepad? Same reason.
Katrina Knight
> On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:30:28 GMT, Stuart Brook
> <s_brook...@not.here.for.spam.att.canada.ca> wrote:
>>No additional overhead is required for lower case characters. HTML
>>doesn't make a message any easier to read (often time makes it harder!)
> So why do books, newspapers, and magazines use things like different
> fonts, different sizes, italics, bolding, etc? Do those things make
> reading easier or harder? Obviously easier.
Not so obviously in my opinion. That depends on exactly what is done. Some
of it makes it harder. Some of it makes it easier. I recently read a book
printed in brown ink. It looked artistic and nice in appearance, but it
did not make reading it easier.
You're missing something really obvious here. Printed materials have total
control over how their product appears. Email doesn't. Different people
have different size monitors, use different screen resolutions, have
different fonts installed, etc. Different people also prefer different
colors for their background and text colors. What looks wonderful to you
is not necessarily going to look wonderful to everybody.
Why should I have to read my messages in 8 point bright orange script
because someone else liked it? Or 24 point purple block lettering?
And yes, the size of messages does matter to some people. There are people
who pay by the minute to connect to the internet. That's not common in the
US, but it is in some other countries. If you get a lot of messages,
having all of them anywhere between double and ten times the size that
they could be just because someone wants to make them look "pretty" can
get to be a real annoyance.
> Why do we use word
> processors such as Word and Wordperfect (with those features) instead
> of Notepad? Same reason.
Most of us are capable of using Notepad where a text editor is
appropriate and a word processor when a word processor is appropriate.
Different tools are appropriate for different situations. In my opinion,
html does have a place in email. That place should not be as a default for
corresponding with everybody whether they want it or not though. It should
be reserved for times when it adds something appropriate to the message
and when the recipient actually wants it. I don't find saying that html is
never appropriate to be a lot more sensible than saying it should always
be used.
--
Katrina
Stuart Brook
GregChi
No only because notepad doesn't have a built-in spell
checker..........
Thanx, Greg
greg dot chi via snet dot net