TCL/Tk for M1 Macintosh?

[jerry...@gmail.com]

A thousand years ago in a galaxy far, far, away I used to do some programming in Tcl/Tk.

I recently purchased a 14'" M1 MacBook Pro. Is it possible to find a 'Batterys Included" kind of native binary distribution for the latest version of Tcl/Tk?

I am getting a bit long in the tooth for battling and building a distro from scratch. ( I have been retired for 20 years)

Apple has asserted they are going to abandon Tcl 'soon', It looks like Active State is close to the same decision, at least for the Mac.

Any suggestions would be welcome...

Jerry

[Colin Macleod]

"jerry...@gmail.com" <jerry...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:54e56ef2-4ae8-478e...@googlegroups.com:

>
> I recently purchased a 14'" M1 MacBook Pro. Is it possible to find a
> 'Batterys Included" kind of native binary distribution for the latest
> version of Tcl/Tk?
>

I'm not a Mac user but I see that MacPorts has tcl & tk builds available
for ARM - https://ports.macports.org/all_builds/?
port_name=tcl&builder_name__name=12_arm64&builder_name__name=11_arm64
They seem to have some extensions available too, e.g. tcllib, tclx, tDOM.

Colin.

[ALX]

See here: https://www.sowaswie.de/downloads/tcl/macos/arm64/

[Siri Cruise]

In article
<4bbe59ab-8b11-4fe4...@googlegroups.com>,
ALX <a.sc...@gmx.de> wrote:

> See here: https://www.sowaswie.de/downloads/tcl/macos/arm64/

Understand the Apple no longer sells computers for people to use.
It now sells devices to deliver customers to retailers and
advertisers, like Google. Once upon a time before America was
Grating Again, you had things like Macintoshes that could run
System 7 software. Adobe can't get rich if people keep using
legacy Photoshop for free, so Apple makes new system break old
software. I've discoverred just about none of my purchased
software that runs on OS 10 runs on an emergency replacement X86
OS 11.

--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\
Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

[nospam]

In article
<chine.bleu-0E6F4...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri

Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Understand the Apple no longer sells computers for people to use.

people who use them would disagree.

> It now sells devices to deliver customers to retailers and
> advertisers, like Google.

that is not supported by evidence.

> Once upon a time before America was
> Grating Again, you had things like Macintoshes that could run
> System 7 software.

system 7 came out more than 30 years ago.

> Adobe can't get rich if people keep using
> legacy Photoshop for free,

photoshop has never been free and adobe doesn't care if someone
continues to run an older version.

> so Apple makes new system break old
> software.

no they don't.

the opposite is true. apple goes out of its way so that existing
software *doesn't* break.

rosetta 2 provides for existing intel apps to run on apple silicon, and
in many cases faster than on native intel hardware. fifteen years ago,
rosetta provided for powerpc apps to run on intel hardware. twenty
years ago, when mac os x first came out, classic environment provided
for running apps not yet updated for mac os x. system 7, which you
mentioned above, had a *lot* of code solely so that microsoft apps
continued to work. there are many other examples.

> I've discoverred just about none of my purchased
> software that runs on OS 10 runs on an emergency replacement X86
> OS 11.

such as which ones?

why haven't you contacted the developers for updates?

apple has no control over what third party developers do.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <230820221550422007%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > Understand the Apple no longer sells computers for people to use.
>
> people who use them would disagree.

We are migrating to Linux as Quicktime and CoreGraphics
frameworks wither and die.

> > It now sells devices to deliver customers to retailers and
> > advertisers, like Google.
>
> that is not supported by evidence.

And you think ads filling screen real estate and sound channels
are okay.

I watch youtube via downloaders because they strip ads. I had to
install Chrome because OS 11 Safari breaks MP4 downloads.

> system 7 came out more than 30 years ago.

And I continued to use it for Illustrator and Photoshop until I
found replacements. Which break on OS 11.

> rosetta 2 provides for existing intel apps to run on apple silicon, and

I've got X86 not M1. I lost a chunk of bought software when
rosetta 1 disappeared. Why should I trust rosetta 2 to continue
if I rebuy software?

> > I've discoverred just about none of my purchased
> > software that runs on OS 10 runs on an emergency replacement X86
> > OS 11.
>
> such as which ones?

Soundflower? Inkscape?

> why haven't you contacted the developers for updates?

AuLab?

> apple has no control over what third party developers do.

Like removing Quicktime or Tcl frameworks. X Windows.

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 12:32, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article
> <4bbe59ab-8b11-4fe4...@googlegroups.com>,
> ALX <a.sc...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> See here: https://www.sowaswie.de/downloads/tcl/macos/arm64/
>
> Understand the Apple no longer sells computers for people to use.
> It now sells devices to deliver customers to retailers and
> advertisers, like Google.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

> Once upon a time before America was
> Grating Again, you had things like Macintoshes that could run
> System 7 software. Adobe can't get rich if people keep using
> legacy Photoshop for free, so Apple makes new system break old
> software. I've discoverred just about none of my purchased
> software that runs on OS 10 runs on an emergency replacement X86
> OS 11.

Apple announced a transition away from 32-bit software more than 5 years
ago.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <te3cu2$32vk9$1...@dont-email.me>,

Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

> > It now sells devices to deliver customers to retailers and
> > advertisers, like Google.
>
> LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

Consider yourself fortunate you never had to go to AppStore.

> Apple announced a transition away from 32-bit software more than 5 years
> ago.

And fuck you if you were still running installed software.

If Apple can't figure out how to compile X Windows 64 bit, how
would anyone else?

[Alan]

I happen to use Inscape on macOS Monterey (12.2.1)...

...so are ignorant or lying?

>
>> why haven't you contacted the developers for updates?
>
> AuLab?
>
>> apple has no control over what third party developers do.
>
> Like removing Quicktime or Tcl frameworks. X Windows.
>

https://www.xquartz.org

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 13:29, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <te3cu2$32vk9$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>> It now sells devices to deliver customers to retailers and
>>> advertisers, like Google.
>>
>> LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!
>
> Consider yourself fortunate you never had to go to AppStore.

I've been to the App Store many times.

What is your complaint?

You can't manage to determine what is an ad?

>
>> Apple announced a transition away from 32-bit software more than 5 years
>> ago.
>
> And fuck you if you were still running installed software.
>
> If Apple can't figure out how to compile X Windows 64 bit, how
> would anyone else?

'XQuartz-2.8.2.dmg 2.8.2 2022-06-30 For macOS 10.9 or later'

<https://www.xquartz.org/index.html>

So the answer to my question is you're just ignorant.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <te3dcs$33178$1...@dont-email.me>,

Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

> I happen to use Inscape on macOS Monterey (12.2.1)...
>
> ...so are ignorant or lying?

Why did Apple remove X Windows and then add it back?

[nospam]

In article
<chine.bleu-72CFC...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri

Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > Understand the Apple no longer sells computers for people to use.
> >
> > people who use them would disagree.
>
> We are migrating to Linux as Quicktime and CoreGraphics
> frameworks wither and die.

the selection of apps for linux is far smaller than for mac or windows.

> > > It now sells devices to deliver customers to retailers and
> > > advertisers, like Google.
> >
> > that is not supported by evidence.
>
> And you think ads filling screen real estate and sound channels
> are okay.

what ads?

some free apps have ads, notably on iphone and android.

apps that are not free don't have ads (with very rare exception, and
they get bashed heavily for it).

> I watch youtube via downloaders because they strip ads.

youtube is a website, not an app, which is supported by ads, as are
many websites.

youtube ads are served from the same servers as the videos, which makes
it tricky to block only the ads, however, it's not impossible and there
are several such ad blockers, without the need to download videos just
to watch them.

> I had to
> install Chrome because OS 11 Safari breaks MP4 downloads.

no it doesn't.

> > rosetta 2 provides for existing intel apps to run on apple silicon, and
>
> I've got X86 not M1. I lost a chunk of bought software when
> rosetta 1 disappeared.

apple licensed rosetta from transitive, which was later purchased by
ibm, who chose to not renew existing licenses. that meant that apple
could no longer continue to ship it. fortunately, that happened after
nearly all apps had been updated to be intel native, which was
relatively easy in nearly every case.

the bigger question is why didn't the developers of whatever software
you had update their apps to intel native code?

it's not apple's fault that third party developers abandoned their
users.

> Why should I trust rosetta 2 to continue
> if I rebuy software?

rosetta 2 was developed by apple rather than licensed from another
company, so apple can ship it for as long as there's a demand for it.

the real question is why should someone trust a developer that doesn't
update their software?

updating to apple silicon is even easier than powerpc->intel.

>
> > apple has no control over what third party developers do.
>
> Like removing Quicktime or Tcl frameworks. X Windows.

quicktime was replaced with a more modern and more capable framework,
with developers having more than a decade to migrate to it.

xwindows and tcl aren't apple products, and can easily be added if
needed.

[nospam]

In article <te3cu2$32vk9$1...@dont-email.me>, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

> Apple announced a transition away from 32-bit software more than 5 years
> ago.

apple's first 64 bit system was almost 20 years ago.

developers have had plenty of time to migrate.

[nospam]

In article
<chine.bleu-A744A...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri

Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Why did Apple remove X Windows and then add it back?

the real question is why did they bother including it in the first
place.

xwindows is *awful*.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <230820221639518925%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> youtube is a website, not an app, which is supported by ads, as are
> many websites.

Apple removed telnet. I now need an application to access any
website.

One of the nice things about MacOSX 1 was Apple installed just
about free anything that ran on unix.

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 13:38, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <te3dcs$33178$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> I happen to use Inscape on macOS Monterey (12.2.1)...
>>
>> ...so are ignorant or lying?
>
> Why did Apple remove X Windows and then add it back?
>

You've yet to prove that they did so.

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 13:46, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <230820221639518925%nos...@nospam.invalid>,
> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> youtube is a website, not an app, which is supported by ads, as are
>> many websites.
>
> Apple removed telnet. I now need an application to access any
> website.

You're saying you need TELNET to access a WEBsite, are you?

Oh, and I have telnet on my copy of macOS Monterey 12.2.1

>
> One of the nice things about MacOSX 1 was Apple installed just
> about free anything that ran on unix.

And what can you not run today?

[Siri Cruise]

In article <230820221641475859%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

And much unix software needed it. Back in the day Apple was okay
with people getting free software without owing your soul to the
company appstore.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <230820221641465790%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

As you point out apple has turned its products into deliver
devices to retailers.

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 13:52, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <230820221641475859%nos...@nospam.invalid>,
> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <chine.bleu-A744A...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri
>> Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Why did Apple remove X Windows and then add it back?
>>
>> the real question is why did they bother including it in the first
>> place.
>>
>> xwindows is *awful*.
>
> And much unix software needed it.

Because they couldn't have anything better.

> Back in the day Apple was okay
> with people getting free software without owing your soul to the
> company appstore.

Apple is still okay with people installing any software they want on macOS.

I'm sorry that you find this simple fact so incomprehensible.

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 13:54, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <230820221641465790%nos...@nospam.invalid>,
> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In article <te3cu2$32vk9$1...@dont-email.me>, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Apple announced a transition away from 32-bit software more than 5 years
>>> ago.
>>
>> apple's first 64 bit system was almost 20 years ago.
>>
>> developers have had plenty of time to migrate.
>
> As you point out apple has turned its products into deliver
> devices to retailers.
>

In what way?

Must a developer continue to support everything it has ever done for all
eternity?

[Siri Cruise]

In article <te3dsg$332hg$1...@dont-email.me>,

Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

> > If Apple can't figure out how to compile X Windows 64 bit, how
> > would anyone else?
>
> 'XQuartz-2.8.2.dmg 2.8.2 2022-06-30 For macOS 10.9 or later'
>
> <https://www.xquartz.org/index.html>
>
> So the answer to my question is you're just ignorant.

The XQuartz project is an open-source effort to develop a version
of the X.Org X Window System that runs on macOS. Together with
supporting libraries and applications, it forms the X11.app that
Apple shipped with OS X versions 10.5 through 10.7. How do Apple
forget to do it after 10.7?

[nospam]

In article
<chine.bleu-F1C41...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri

Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > Why did Apple remove X Windows and then add it back?
> >
> > the real question is why did they bother including it in the first
> > place.
> >
> > xwindows is *awful*.
>
> And much unix software needed it.

some did, and it's awful.

> Back in the day Apple was okay
> with people getting free software without owing your soul to the
> company appstore.

they still are ok with that.

mac apps are available outside of the app store, along with unix native
apps. windows apps even work with boot camp or a virtual machine (which
has os-level support).

[nospam]

In article
<chine.bleu-E3166...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri

Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > youtube is a website, not an app, which is supported by ads, as are
> > many websites.
>
> Apple removed telnet.

telnet is not secure and should not be used.

what does telnet have to do with youtube?

> I now need an application to access any
> website.

yes, that's called a browser.

telnet is the wrong tool and if a web site still supports telnet for
webmasters (not the general public), do not visit that site, because
they don't understand security.

> One of the nice things about MacOSX 1 was Apple installed just
> about free anything that ran on unix.

it turns out that few people used any of that stuff.

those who do want it can install it.

apple doesn't prevent anyone from installing whatever apps they want.

[nospam]

In article
<chine.bleu-817A5...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri

Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > Apple announced a transition away from 32-bit software more than 5 years
> > > ago.
> >
> > apple's first 64 bit system was almost 20 years ago.
> >
> > developers have had plenty of time to migrate.
>
> As you point out apple has turned its products into deliver
> devices to retailers.

i didn't not point that out because it's bullshit, just like everything
else you've said.

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 13:58, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <te3dsg$332hg$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>> If Apple can't figure out how to compile X Windows 64 bit, how
>>> would anyone else?
>>
>> 'XQuartz-2.8.2.dmg 2.8.2 2022-06-30 For macOS 10.9 or later'
>>
>> <https://www.xquartz.org/index.html>
>>
>> So the answer to my question is you're just ignorant.
>
> The XQuartz project is an open-source effort to develop a version
> of the X.Org X Window System that runs on macOS. Together with
> supporting libraries and applications, it forms the X11.app that
> Apple shipped with OS X versions 10.5 through 10.7. How do Apple
> forget to do it after 10.7?
>

So make up your mind.

You want to claim that Apple doesn't want you to run free software...

...but when an example of such software is present, you turn around and
claim it isn't enough.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <230820221639518925%nos...@nospam.invalid>,
nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > Why should I trust rosetta 2 to continue
> > if I rebuy software?
>
> rosetta 2 was developed by apple rather than licensed from another
> company, so apple can ship it for as long as there's a demand for it.

Fool me once, shame on--shame on you. Fool me--you can't get
fooled again.

[nospam]

In article
<chine.bleu-1F677...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri

Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > Why should I trust rosetta 2 to continue
> > > if I rebuy software?
> >
> > rosetta 2 was developed by apple rather than licensed from another
> > company, so apple can ship it for as long as there's a demand for it.
>
> Fool me once, shame on--shame on you. Fool me--you can't get
> fooled again.

the only fool is you.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <230820221700162429%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article
> <chine.bleu-E3166...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri
> Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > youtube is a website, not an app, which is supported by ads, as are
> > > many websites.
> >
> > Apple removed telnet.
>
> telnet is not secure and should not be used.

You don't know what it was used for.

> what does telnet have to do with youtube?

Nearly all internet protocols, including http, can be done with
telenet. This allows experimentation and development without
writing special purpose software. This was intentional.

> > I now need an application to access any
> > website.
>
> yes, that's called a browser.

Safari doesn't download. After a bit it gets tired and gets
slower, slower, slower, and pukes. Since Chrome and Firefox
download the same files on the same network on the same box,
changing only the browser, you can now reassure me it's not a
Safari problem.

> telnet is the wrong tool and if a web site still supports telnet for

How would you not support telnet?

@ telnet www.apple.com 80
Trying 104.68.102.211...
Connected to e6858.dscx.akamaiedge.net.
Escape character is '^]'.
HTTP/1.0 408 Request Time-out
Server: AkamaiGHost
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 21:22:17 GMT
Content-Type: text/html
Content-Length: 218
Expires: Tue, 23 Aug 2022 21:22:17 GMT
<HTML><HEAD>
<TITLE>Request Timeout</TITLE>
</HEAD><BODY>
<H1>Request Timeout</H1>
The server timed out while waiting for the browser's request.<P>
Reference&#32;&#35;2&#46;a63919b8&#46;1661289737&#46;0
</BODY></HTML>
Connection closed by foreign host.

> webmasters (not the general public), do not visit that site, because

I'm not general public. I was once tasked to do an extension to
get an HTTP page. I used telnet to test the communications before
coding into C.

> > One of the nice things about MacOSX 1 was Apple installed just
> > about free anything that ran on unix.
>
> it turns out that few people used any of that stuff.

And makefile bits rot away so you can't still make.

> those who do want it can install it.
>
> apple doesn't prevent anyone from installing whatever apps they want.

You haven't ever installed whatever otherwise you would know you
have to submit to Sister Mary Pain and Punishment if you dare go
outside AppStore.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <te3fc8$336q8$1...@dont-email.me>,

Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

> So make up your mind.

If it's so easy, why did Apple stop doing it?

> You want to claim that Apple doesn't want you to run free software...

Once I had to go down to boot to turn off all their crap to get a
program to run. If you had ever tried to run free software, you
would know Apple doesn't allow it with first a session with
Sister Mary Pain and Punishment.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <230820221700182563%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > > developers have had plenty of time to migrate.
> >
> > As you point out apple has turned its products into deliver
> > devices to retailers.
>
> i didn't not point that out because it's bullshit, just like everything
> else you've said.

And all vendors provide free upgrades?

[Siri Cruise]

In article <te3es5$3348b$4...@dont-email.me>,

Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

> Must a developer continue to support everything it has ever done for all
> eternity?

I develop to APIs. When Apple breaks the libraries behind APIs,
we developers are screwed. Amusing story: For things like PNG and
JPEG. When Apple hid the libraries, okay, I can download source
libraries and build my own. And then Apple fucked their libraries
again so they were usurping the same entry points names as
occurred in the downloaded hand built libraries. I now have to
ritually rebrand them as PXG and JPIG libraries.

Theoretically if the header files don't change, shared libraries
are upwardly compatiable. Unless Apple doesn't care about letting
old software run. That explains why they hid header files.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <230820221700172499%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > And much unix software needed it.
>
> some did, and it's awful.

Yes, Apple, spank me for going to GNU instead of Adobe.

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 14:37, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <230820221700162429%nos...@nospam.invalid>,
> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <chine.bleu-E3166...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri
>> Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> youtube is a website, not an app, which is supported by ads, as are
>>>> many websites.
>>>
>>> Apple removed telnet.
>>
>> telnet is not secure and should not be used.
>
> You don't know what it was used for.
>
>> what does telnet have to do with youtube?
>
> Nearly all internet protocols, including http, can be done with
> telenet. This allows experimentation and development without
> writing special purpose software. This was intentional.

Got a cite for that?

>
>>> I now need an application to access any
>>> website.
>>
>> yes, that's called a browser.
>
> Safari doesn't download. After a bit it gets tired and gets
> slower, slower, slower, and pukes. Since Chrome and Firefox
> download the same files on the same network on the same box,
> changing only the browser, you can now reassure me it's not a
> Safari problem.

Bullshit.

"curl"

>
>>> One of the nice things about MacOSX 1 was Apple installed just
>>> about free anything that ran on unix.
>>
>> it turns out that few people used any of that stuff.
>
> And makefile bits rot away so you can't still make.
>
>> those who do want it can install it.
>>
>> apple doesn't prevent anyone from installing whatever apps they want.
>
> You haven't ever installed whatever otherwise you would know you
> have to submit to Sister Mary Pain and Punishment if you dare go
> outside AppStore.

What does this "pain and punishment" consist of: being asked if you want
to install that software?

The horror!

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 14:44, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <te3fc8$336q8$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> So make up your mind.
>
> If it's so easy, why did Apple stop doing it?

Better question:

Why should Apple continue to do it?

>
>> You want to claim that Apple doesn't want you to run free software...
>
> Once I had to go down to boot to turn off all their crap to get a
> program to run. If you had ever tried to run free software, you
> would know Apple doesn't allow it with first a session with
> Sister Mary Pain and Punishment.

What program?

Give us specifics, because I think you're flat-out lying.

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 14:59, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <te3es5$3348b$4...@dont-email.me>,
> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> Must a developer continue to support everything it has ever done for all
>> eternity?
>
> I develop to APIs. When Apple breaks the libraries behind APIs,
> we developers are screwed.

Not when you get loads of warning.

> Amusing story: For things like PNG and
> JPEG. When Apple hid the libraries,

How did they "hide" them?

> okay, I can download source
> libraries and build my own. And then Apple fucked their libraries
> again so they were usurping the same entry points names as
> occurred in the downloaded hand built libraries. I now have to
> ritually rebrand them as PXG and JPIG libraries.

Explain specifics, please.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <te3er3$3348b$3...@dont-email.me>,

Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

> Apple is still okay with people installing any software they want on macOS.
>
> I'm sorry that you find this simple fact so incomprehensible.

Mr Prosser: But, Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the
local planning office for the last nine months.
Arthur: Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to
see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of
your way to call attention to them had you? I mean like actually
telling anybody or anything.
Mr Prosser: But the plans were on display...
Arthur: On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to
find them.
Mr Prosser: That’s the display department.
Arthur: With a torch.
Mr Prosser: The lights had probably gone out.
Arthur: So had the stairs.
Mr Prosser: But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?
Arthur: Yes yes I did. It was on display at the bottom of a
locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on
the door saying beware of the leopard.

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 15:06, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <te3er3$3348b$3...@dont-email.me>,
> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> Apple is still okay with people installing any software they want on macOS.
>>
>> I'm sorry that you find this simple fact so incomprehensible.
>
> Mr Prosser: But, Mr Dent, the plans have been available in the
> local planning office for the last nine months.
> Arthur: Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to
> see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of
> your way to call attention to them had you? I mean like actually
> telling anybody or anything.
> Mr Prosser: But the plans were on display...
> Arthur: On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to
> find them.
> Mr Prosser: That’s the display department.
> Arthur: With a torch.
> Mr Prosser: The lights had probably gone out.
> Arthur: So had the stairs.
> Mr Prosser: But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?
> Arthur: Yes yes I did. It was on display at the bottom of a
> locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on
> the door saying beware of the leopard.
>

Please, dude.

That comparison is complete bullshit.

Explain the hardest installation you've had to do on Mac OS.

[nospam]

In article
<chine.bleu-3B7D2...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri

Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > > youtube is a website, not an app, which is supported by ads, as are
> > > > many websites.
> > >
> > > Apple removed telnet.
> >
> > telnet is not secure and should not be used.
>
> You don't know what it was used for.

doesn't matter. it's not secure.

> > what does telnet have to do with youtube?
>
> Nearly all internet protocols, including http, can be done with
> telenet.

not true.

> This allows experimentation and development without
> writing special purpose software. This was intentional.

long ago, but today there are much, much better options.

> > > I now need an application to access any
> > > website.
> >
> > yes, that's called a browser.
>
> Safari doesn't download.

yes it does.

> After a bit it gets tired and gets
> slower, slower, slower, and pukes.

next time, take a nap. did you at least make it to the bathroom rather
than barf all over your computer?

> Since Chrome and Firefox
> download the same files on the same network on the same box,
> changing only the browser, you can now reassure me it's not a
> Safari problem.

it's definitely not a safari problem.

> >
> > apple doesn't prevent anyone from installing whatever apps they want.
>
> You haven't ever installed whatever otherwise you would know you
> have to submit to Sister Mary Pain and Punishment if you dare go
> outside AppStore.

rubbish.

[nospam]

In article
<chine.bleu-23538...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri

Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > > developers have had plenty of time to migrate.
> > >
> > > As you point out apple has turned its products into deliver
> > > devices to retailers.
> >
> > i didn't not point that out because it's bullshit, just like everything
> > else you've said.
>
> And all vendors provide free upgrades?

some do.

it's up to individual developers whether to offer a free or paid
upgrade.

what does that have to do with migrating to 64 bit, av foundation or
any other new framework?

developers deserve to be paid for their work.

those who want everything for free are mooches.

[nospam]

In article
<chine.bleu-A2C28...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri

Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I develop to APIs. When Apple breaks the libraries behind APIs,
> we developers are screwed.

the apis are initially deprecated, and then after several years,
they're removed. sometimes that can be a decade.

during that time, developers have ample opportunity (years) to migrate
to the newer apis, which are often much easier to use and generally
means a lot of existing code can be removed. in other words, it makes
things *easier*.

> Amusing story: For things like PNG and
> JPEG. When Apple hid the libraries,

they didn't.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <te3ejd$3348b$2...@dont-email.me>,

Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

> You're saying you need TELNET to access a WEBsite, are you?

I wanted to verify my understanding of nntp without writing code.
-bash: telnet: command not found

Telnet was also useful when expect was around. Do they still have
dig? That was useful way to send mail without needing first hop
SMTP credentials, the way sendmail can but postfix can't do.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <te3j2d$33ilj$4...@dont-email.me>,

Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

> Explain the hardest installation you've had to do on Mac OS.

Building imgmagick after Apple changed libraries.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <230820221809140688%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > Amusing story: For things like PNG and
> > JPEG. When Apple hid the libraries,
>
> they didn't.

When now you've shown you're what door posts point when they tell
how dumb someone is.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <te3j0d$33ilj$3...@dont-email.me>,

Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

> I develop to APIs. When Apple breaks the libraries behind APIs,
> > we developers are screwed.
>
> Not when you get loads of warning.

I guess the idea of 'upward compatiable' is unknown to you.
You're happy to rebuy software every few years.

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 15:16, Siri Cruise wrote:

> In article <te3ejd$3348b$2...@dont-email.me>,
> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> You're saying you need TELNET to access a WEBsite, are you?
>
> I wanted to verify my understanding of nntp without writing code.
> -bash: telnet: command not found

/Users % telnet
telnet>

So maybe the problem is you?

>
> Telnet was also useful when expect was around. Do they still have
> dig? That was useful way to send mail without needing first hop
> SMTP credentials, the way sendmail can but postfix can't do.
>

/Users % dig

; <<>> DiG 9.10.6 <<>>

Any more ignorant questions?

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 15:33, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <te3j2d$33ilj$4...@dont-email.me>,
> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> Explain the hardest installation you've had to do on Mac OS.
>
> Building imgmagick after Apple changed libraries.
>

And how many Mac users do you think want to do that, hmmm?

[Siri Cruise]

In article <te3iu0$33ilj$2...@dont-email.me>,

Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

> > would know Apple doesn't allow it with first a session with
> > Sister Mary Pain and Punishment.
>
> What program?
>
> Give us specifics, because I think you're flat-out lying.

Idiot.

https://developer.apple.com/support/code-signing/

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 15:46, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <te3j0d$33ilj$3...@dont-email.me>,
> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>
>> I develop to APIs. When Apple breaks the libraries behind APIs,
>>> we developers are screwed.
>>
>> Not when you get loads of warning.
>
> I guess the idea of 'upward compatiable' is unknown to you.
> You're happy to rebuy software every few years.
>

So you contend that EVERy OS developer must support EVERything they have
EVER supported...

...forEVER.

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 15:50, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <te3iu0$33ilj$2...@dont-email.me>,
> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>> would know Apple doesn't allow it with first a session with
>>> Sister Mary Pain and Punishment.
>>
>> What program?
>>
>> Give us specifics, because I think you're flat-out lying.
>
> Idiot.
>
> https://developer.apple.com/support/code-signing/
>

So asked to provide a specific program...

...you punk out.

Got it.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <230820221809110527%nos...@nospam.invalid>,

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > > telnet is not secure and should not be used.
> >
> > You don't know what it was used for.
>
> doesn't matter. it's not secure.

Idiot. You're whining that it doesn't use secure protocols. You
don't need secure protocols to do the kind of testing and
prototyping telnet can be used for. Get some experience, child.

> > You haven't ever installed whatever otherwise you would know you
> > have to submit to Sister Mary Pain and Punishment if you dare go
> > outside AppStore.
>
> rubbish.

Idiot.

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 16:01, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <230820221809110527%nos...@nospam.invalid>,
> nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>> telnet is not secure and should not be used.
>>>
>>> You don't know what it was used for.
>>
>> doesn't matter. it's not secure.
>
> Idiot. You're whining that it doesn't use secure protocols. You
> don't need secure protocols to do the kind of testing and
> prototyping telnet can be used for. Get some experience, child.

And my machine HAS telnet, dude.

[Siri Cruise]

In article <te3is8$33ilj$1...@dont-email.me>,

Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

> > Nearly all internet protocols, including http, can be done with
> > telenet. This allows experimentation and development without
> > writing special purpose software. This was intentional.
>
> Got a cite for that?

How old are you? Twelve? Five?

[nospam]

In article
<chine.bleu-82F4D...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri
Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> https://developer.apple.com/support/code-signing/

codesigning is not unique to apple.

[nospam]

In article <te3lia$33p7a$2...@dont-email.me>, Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:

> >> Explain the hardest installation you've had to do on Mac OS.
> >
> > Building imgmagick after Apple changed libraries.
> >
>
> And how many Mac users do you think want to do that, hmmm?

those that do can do this:
brew install imagemagick

[nospam]

In article
<chine.bleu-55136...@news.eternal-september.org>, Siri

Cruise <chine...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > Nearly all internet protocols, including http, can be done with
> > > telenet. This allows experimentation and development without
> > > writing special purpose software. This was intentional.
> >
> > Got a cite for that?
>
> How old are you? Twelve? Five?

translated: no cite.

[Alan]

On 2022-08-23 16:07, Siri Cruise wrote:
> In article <te3is8$33ilj$1...@dont-email.me>,
> Alan <nuh...@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>> Nearly all internet protocols, including http, can be done with
>>> telenet. This allows experimentation and development without
>>> writing special purpose software. This was intentional.
>>
>> Got a cite for that?
>
> How old are you? Twelve? Five?
>

So you cannot cite that telnet was intentionally designed for
"experimentation and development".

Got it.

[Jolly Roger]

BINGO

"So hard, y'all!1!!" : D

--
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

[Torsten Berg]

On Tuesday, August 23, 2022 at 6:51:07 PM UTC+2, ALX wrote:
> See here: https://www.sowaswie.de/downloads/tcl/macos/arm64/

Does anyone know how to install that distribution? I tried just copying the files into the respective folders on the Mac but that didn't work. Is there a documentation for the install process somewhere (I could not find any)?

[ALX]

Yes. It just needs to be extracted from the root path.
sudo tar -C / -xjvf tcltk-8.6.12-macOS-arm64.tar.bz2
Administrator rights are required.
Furthermore, it should be noted that existing installations of Tcl/Tk in the directories /Applications/Utitlies, /Library/Tcl, /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.Framework und /Library/Frameworks/Tk.Framework may be overwritten.
I am working on a new version with batteries included Tcl/Tk 8.6.13, but it will take another 14 days.

[Torsten Berg]

OK, thanks! Then I will have another go extracting directly from the root folder.

[Martyn Smith]

These are still X86 executables requiring Rosetta to execute, not native ARM64 for the M1, according to the readme files.

[stevel]

I'm late to the party here but nevertheless ...

It is easy enough to build Tcl and Tk yourself. Check out the sources from https://core.tcl-lang.org. It's best to go with 8.7 for both, since Tk 8.7 has lots of fixes and (even though it is an alpha) it works well. You can download the source tarballs or zip files from https://www.tcl-lang.org/software/tcltk/download.html or checkout the source code using Fossil from https://core.tcl-lang.org. Make source you have the core-8-branch checked out.

One you have the source code in two folders, let's call them Tcl and Tk :) do the following

$ cd Tcl
$ make -C macosx -j8
$ sudo make -C macosx install

Then the same for Tk

$ cd Tk
$ make -C macosx
$ sudo make -C macosx -j8 install

That will replace the distributed Tcl/Tk 8.5 on macOS but that's not a bad thing. The -j8 is to use multiple cores in the compilation, you can omit if you want.

I trust this helps

Steve

[ALX]

It is native arm and not intel:

file wish8.6 tclsh8.6
wish8.6: POSIX shell script text executable, ASCII text
tclsh8.6: Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures: [x86_64:Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64] [arm64:Mach-O 64-bit executable arm64]
tclsh8.6 (for architecture x86_64): Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64
tclsh8.6 (for architecture arm64): Mach-O 64-bit executable arm64

[stevel]

That looks like a fat binary i.e. native arm AND intel.

[ALX]

Download FIle:
https://www.sowaswie.de/downloads/tcl/macos/arm64/tcltk-8.6.12-macOS-arm64.tar.bz2

Arm64. Contens:
~/Downloads/tcltk-8.6.12-macOS-arm64> file Applications/Utilities/Wish.app/Contents/MacOS/Wish usr/local/bin/tclsh
Applications/Utilities/Wish.app/Contents/MacOS/Wish: Mach-O 64-bit executable arm64
usr/local/bin/tclsh: Mach-O 64-bit executable arm64

[Martyn Smith]

I was refering to the readme file header
BAWT 2.2.1 Tcl 8.7a5 macOS Monterey 12.5.1 arm64

21:47:41 > Summary
Setup file : Bawt-2.2.1/Setup/Tcl_Distribution.bawt
Build directory: BawtBuild/Darwin/x64/Release/Build
Architecture : x64
Compilers : gcc
Global stages : Finalize
But that probably is refering to the BAWT builder not the produced executable.
Whe I tried BAWT recently it generated a Darwin/x64 directory, I need to try again with a different configuration.
Or more simply use the BI build referenced above.

[ALX]

Actually, as of bawt 2.3.x, a new build script is included which also builds ARM64 binaries: Build-Darwin-arm64.sh

[ALX]

Yes, that's right. I was in the wrong folder. I am in the process of creating a universal build batteries included and adding apple dev signatures to the whole thing.