README: Tcl-URL! - the weekly guide to Tcl resources (May 3)

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Matt Newman

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May 2, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/2/99
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The biggest news this week is that Tcl/Tk 8.1 has been released - I urge
everyone who can to test their apps against this release as soon as possible
so we can all benefit from a stable baseline.

Tcl/Tk 8.1 Release Announcement
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=472884142

Good advice for people building multi-lingual applications.
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=472708149

Interview w/ John Ousterhout in Linux Journal (Issue 60)
http://www.linuxjournal.com/issue60/

Using the Xt-based Notifier in Tcl
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=472905478

Why Tcl is better than Perl (Warning: Perl users should take
a sedative before reading)
http://www.scriptics.com/scripting/perl.html

Long discussion on using the Cygwin Development Environment
for various aspects of building Tcl.
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=471468748

What's a good editor for tcl/tk? (various options discussed)
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=472059514

Good advice about how to best use Tcl 8.1's encoding
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=471743458


Everything you want is probably one or two clicks away in these pages:

The "Welcome to comp.lang.tcl" message by Andreas Kupries
http://www.westend.com/~kupries/c.l.t.welcome.html

Larry Virden maintains a comp.lang.tcl FAQ launcher
http://www.purl.org/NET/Tcl-FAQ/

Scriptics maintains a highly organized Tcl resource center
http://www.scriptics.com/resource/

They also keep info to convince your boss Tcl is a good thing
http://www.scriptics.com/scripting/

NeoSoft has a comp.lang.tcl contributed sources archive
http://www.neosoft.com/tcl/contributed-software/

Cameron Laird tracks many Tcl/Tk references of interest
http://starbase.neosoft.com/~claird/comp.lang.tcl/

Tcl/Tk Consortium can search comp.lang.tcl and c.l.t.announce
http://www.tclconsortium.org/resources/

Cetus Links maintains a Tcl/Tk page with verified links
http://www.cetus-links.org/oo_tcl_tk.html

Findmail archives comp.lang.tcl.announce posts
http://www.findmail.com/list/tcl_announce/


Previous - (U)se the (R)esource, (L)uke! - messages are listed here:
http://purl.org/thecliff/tcl/url.html
or
http://www.dejanews.com/dnquery.xp?QRY=~g%20comp.lang.tcl%20Tcl-URL%21

Suggestions/corrections for next week's posting are always welcome.

To receive a new issue of this posting in e-mail each Monday morning,
ask <cla...@neosoft.com> to subscribe.

-- The Tcl-URL! Team

--
Matt Newman <ma...@sensus.org>
Sensus Consulting Ltd.

Christopher Nelson

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May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
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Matt Newman wrote:
> Why Tcl is better than Perl (Warning: Perl users should take
> a sedative before reading)
> http://www.scriptics.com/scripting/perl.html

All in all, a fairly even handed treatment (though I'd rather not get involved
in language wars). Still, this surprised me:

6. Extensibility. Tcl was designed from the start to be easily extensible.
This
means that you can add new features to the language by writing C, C++, or
Java code.

Can I really add new feature with Java? Can't I add new features with TCL!?

Chris
--
Rens-se-LEER is a county. RENS-se-ler is a city. R-P-I is a school!

Cameron Laird

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May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
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In article <372D7A4D...@pinebush.com>,

Christopher Nelson <ch...@pinebush.com> wrote:
>Matt Newman wrote:
>> Why Tcl is better than Perl (Warning: Perl users should take
>> a sedative before reading)
>> http://www.scriptics.com/scripting/perl.html
>
>All in all, a fairly even handed treatment (though I'd rather not get involved
>in language wars). Still, this surprised me:
>
> 6. Extensibility. Tcl was designed from the start to be easily extensible.
>This
> means that you can add new features to the language by writing C, C++, or
> Java code.
>
>Can I really add new feature with Java? Can't I add new features with TCL!?
.
.
.
Yes. Yes.

I translate your remark as, "Perhaps Scriptics could
better serve its ends by recognizing that item #6 af-
fords an opportunity to reinforce the in-language
extensibility of Tcl. For example, it might read,
'... by writing C, C++, Ada, Java, or Tcl code.'"
--

Cameron Laird http://starbase.neosoft.com/~claird/home.html
cla...@NeoSoft.com +1 281 996 8546 FAX

Jeffrey Hobbs

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May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
to Christopher Nelson
Christopher Nelson wrote:
> Matt Newman wrote:
> > Why Tcl is better than Perl (Warning: Perl users should take
...

> 6. Extensibility. Tcl was designed from the start to be easily extensible.
> This
> means that you can add new features to the language by writing C, C++, or
> Java code.
>
> Can I really add new feature with Java? Can't I add new features with TCL!?

To Q1: Yes, depending on how you view TclBlend and Jacl. Both of these
bring Tcl and Java together, but from totally separate directions.

To Q2: Are you trying to cause trouble? You better watch out, I know your
(email) address...

Part of me says it is silly to have to include Tcl, as I don't think that
people questions languages like Java, Perl, Tcl and C to be extensible in
and of themselves. However, perhaps there are a couple people who might
get confused by not getting past hearing that Tcl is a great glue language
or easy to learn scripting language to understand that it is a
fully-capable
programming langauge.

** Jeffrey Hobbs jeff.hobbs @SPAM acm.org **
** I'm really just a Tcl-bot My opinions are MY opinions **

Jeffrey.Hobbs.vcf

Christopher Nelson

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May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
to
Jeffrey Hobbs wrote:

> Christopher Nelson wrote:
> > Can I really add new feature with Java? Can't I add new features with TCL!?
>
> To Q1: Yes, depending on how you view TclBlend and Jacl. Both of these
> bring Tcl and Java together, but from totally separate directions.

Well, OK.

> To Q2: Are you trying to cause trouble? You better watch out, I know your
> (email) address...
>
> Part of me says it is silly to have to include Tcl, as I don't think that
> people questions languages like Java, Perl, Tcl and C to be extensible in
> and of themselves. However, perhaps there are a couple people who might
> get confused by not getting past hearing that Tcl is a great glue language
> or easy to learn scripting language to understand that it is a
> fully-capable programming langauge.

You can't add control structures to C in C. You can add control structures to
Tcl in Tcl. I think that is worth mentioning. (Can you add new control
structures to Perl?) If I weren't Tcl savvy, I might not realize how extensible
it is without a C compiler at hand.

Christopher Nelson

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May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
to
Cameron Laird wrote:
>
> In article <372D7A4D...@pinebush.com>,
> Christopher Nelson <ch...@pinebush.com> wrote:
> >Matt Newman wrote:
> >> Why Tcl is better than Perl (Warning: Perl users should take
> >> a sedative before reading)
> >> http://www.scriptics.com/scripting/perl.html
> >
> >All in all, a fairly even handed treatment (though I'd rather not get involved
> >in language wars). Still, this surprised me:
> >
> > 6. Extensibility. Tcl was designed from the start to be easily extensible.
> >This
> > means that you can add new features to the language by writing C, C++, or
> > Java code.
> >
> >Can I really add new feature with Java? Can't I add new features with TCL!?
> .
> .
> .
> Yes. Yes.
>
> I translate your remark as, "Perhaps Scriptics could
> better serve its ends by recognizing that item #6 af-
> fords an opportunity to reinforce the in-language
> extensibility of Tcl. For example, it might read,
> '... by writing C, C++, Ada, Java, or Tcl code.'"

Yes. I guess my sarcasm was too subtle.

ADA!?!

Bruce Stephens

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May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
to
Christopher Nelson <ch...@pinebush.com> writes:

> (Can you add new control structures to Perl?)

Yes. Perl has eval. More usefully, Perl has proper anonymous
functions, and (with lexical scoping) closures. Something that Tcl
could do with, sometimes, IMHO.

(Anyway, who wants to add *more* control structures to Perl---doesn't
it have enough already?)

Cameron Laird

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May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
to
In article <372D9372...@pinebush.com>,

Christopher Nelson <ch...@pinebush.com> wrote:
>Cameron Laird wrote:
>>
>> In article <372D7A4D...@pinebush.com>,
>> Christopher Nelson <ch...@pinebush.com> wrote:
.
.
.

>> > 6. Extensibility. Tcl was designed from the start to be easily extensible.
>> >This
>> > means that you can add new features to the language by writing C, C++, or
>> > Java code.
>> >
>> >Can I really add new feature with Java? Can't I add new features with TCL!?
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> Yes. Yes.
>>
>> I translate your remark as, "Perhaps Scriptics could
>> better serve its ends by recognizing that item #6 af-
>> fords an opportunity to reinforce the in-language
>> extensibility of Tcl. For example, it might read,
>> '... by writing C, C++, Ada, Java, or Tcl code.'"
>
>Yes. I guess my sarcasm was too subtle.
Too subtle for some purposes, not too subtle for
others--just as Scriptics' description perhaps
left ambiguity or confusion in the minds of cer-
tain readers.
>
>ADA!?!
Sure. I admire Terry Westley's work <URL:http://
tash.calspan.com/> in this regard. Moreover, I
think it's important to promote, particularly as
Scriptics is working so hard to establish its
legitimacy in the enterprise. One of my personal
campaigns is to show how Tcl helps make the best
of such "serious" workhorses as COBOL, Oracle,
SAP, PeopleSoft, Win*, Domino, Ada, FORTRAN, ...
I'm especially eager for correspondence from
folks on this topic.
.
.
.

Chang LI

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May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
to
Christopher Nelson wrote:

> 6. Extensibility. Tcl was designed from the start to be easily extensible.
> This means that you can add new features to the language by writing C, C++, or
> Java code.
>
> Can I really add new feature with Java? Can't I add new features with TCL!?
>

Maybe I am not knowledge. Where is the document and program to write a
Tcl extension with Java? Furthermore, how do you glue extensions written
with FORTRAN, COBOL, ADA, VB, and so on? In theory you can do that. In
practice
you need to implement it and then you can say yes. For example, if I
want to
use a FORTRAN library, I need to define the commands that are available
for
Tcl, and I need to add the link between Fortran and C. It is not as
simple
as we think.

Any needs to write Tcl extensions with other languages except C/C++?


--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Chang LI, Neatware
email: cha...@neatware.com
--------------------------------------------------------------

Cameron Laird

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May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
to
In article <372DC9...@neatware.com>, Chang LI <cha...@neatware.com> wrote:
>Christopher Nelson wrote:
>
>> 6. Extensibility. Tcl was designed from the start to be easily extensible.
>> This means that you can add new features to the language by writing C, C++, or
>> Java code.
>>
>> Can I really add new feature with Java? Can't I add new features with TCL!?
>>
>
>Maybe I am not knowledge. Where is the document and program to write a
>Tcl extension with Java? Furthermore, how do you glue extensions written
.
.
.
<URL:http://www.scriptics.com:8123/java/>

There are generally equally definitive answers for
the other technologies you question. They are also
about as easy to find with a minimal search. If
you truly want help with a particular one, ask again.
My impression is that your request was rhetorical.

lvi...@cas.org

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May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
to

According to Cameron Laird <cla...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>:
:In article <372D9372...@pinebush.com>,

:Christopher Nelson <ch...@pinebush.com> wrote:
:>Cameron Laird wrote:
:>>
:>> In article <372D7A4D...@pinebush.com>,
:>> Christopher Nelson <ch...@pinebush.com> wrote:
:>> > means that you can add new features to the language by writing

:C, C++, or
:>> > Java code.
:>> >
:>> >Can I really add new feature with Java? Can't I add new features with TCL!?
:>> Yes. Yes.
:>> extensibility of Tcl. For example, it might read,

:>> '... by writing C, C++, Ada, Java, or Tcl code.'"

:>ADA!?!


:Sure. I admire Terry Westley's work <URL:http://

In fact, in theory, should not any language which can create .o files be
able to create extensions for Tcl?

Paul, Jan, etc, what requirements are you aware of with regards to Stubs
and the language support an extension language needs to provide?

--
<URL: mailto:lvi...@cas.org> Quote: Saving the world before bedtime.
<*> O- <URL: http://www.purl.org/NET/lvirden/>
Unless explicitly stated to the contrary, nothing in this posting
should be construed as representing my employer's opinions.

Bruce Stephens

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May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
to
lvi...@cas.org writes:

> In fact, in theory, should not any language which can create .o files be
> able to create extensions for Tcl?

Pretty much.

> Paul, Jan, etc, what requirements are you aware of with regards to
> Stubs and the language support an extension language needs to
> provide?

The calling conventions need to be roughly the same. For example, a
Fortran-77 compiler might well restrict function names to six
characters, which would make calling many Tcl functions impossible.

It might also pass character strings in such a way that the
corresponding C function would need to accept a char * and an int (for
the length of the string). Or worse. It's likely that arrays would
get passed differently, too, although that probably matters less.

Most languages should be OK. Some might require some work to provide
suitable wrappers.

Chang LI

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May 3, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/3/99
to
Cameron Laird wrote:
>

Not rhetorical.

Jacl and Tcl Blend are not what I expected.

"Jacl, which stands for JAva Command Language, is a new Java
implementation
of Tcl 8.0. Tcl Blend is a new package for Tcl 8.0 that allows you to
load
and interact with the Java VM."

What I want is the Java Source code like C source code that can
be compiled and generated a binary or byte code loadable extension for
Tcl.
Simplely to say can we replace a simple C extension source code with
Java
source code? Can we call Tcl_functions from Java?

When we have the fast C implementation of Tcl why we use Jacl?

> >Maybe I am not knowledge. Where is the document and program to write a
> >Tcl extension with Java? Furthermore, how do you glue extensions written
> .
> .
> .
> <URL:http://www.scriptics.com:8123/java/>
>
> There are generally equally definitive answers for
> the other technologies you question. They are also
> about as easy to find with a minimal search. If
> you truly want help with a particular one, ask again.
> My impression is that your request was rhetorical.
> --
>
> Cameron Laird http://starbase.neosoft.com/~claird/home.html
> cla...@NeoSoft.com +1 281 996 8546 FAX

--

lvi...@cas.org

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May 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM5/4/99
to

According to Chang LI <cha...@neatware.com>:

:Cameron Laird wrote:
:>
:
:Not rhetorical.
:
:Jacl and Tcl Blend are not what I expected.

:of Tcl 8.0. Tcl Blend is a new package for Tcl 8.0 that allows you to


:load
:and interact with the Java VM."
:
:What I want is the Java Source code like C source code that can
:be compiled and generated a binary or byte code loadable extension for
:Tcl.


But as far as I can tell from your one line, Tcl Blend is exactly what
you want. With the TclBlend package, one takes a .class file - which
is what compiling Java gives you, and invokes it as if it were a Tcl
extension.

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