Respect and Disappointment

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Curt Hibbs

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Mar 30, 2005, 10:21:15 AM3/30/05
to
I've finally started a blog. I really didn't want to go public with it
until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that I
feel compelled to comment on.

You can read about it on my blog:

http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs

Curt


Florian Gross

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Mar 30, 2005, 10:27:03 AM3/30/05
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Curt Hibbs wrote:

> You can read about it on my blog:
>
> http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs

Please post Ruby stuff to
http://www.artima.com/buzz/community.jsp?forum=123 as well -- it
aggregates most Ruby weblogs out there which is quite nice.

Thank you!

Curt Hibbs

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Mar 30, 2005, 10:58:05 AM3/30/05
to

Thanks... its done! I just added my blog to the Ruby Buzz aggregation (I
already subscribe to this, myself... just forgot about adding myself
to it).


Curt Hibbs

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Mar 30, 2005, 2:05:57 PM3/30/05
to
Eric Hodel wrote:
> I'd like to subscribe to your blog, but it seems that the RSS feeds are
> all bloglines RSS feeds...

Yeah, they don't make it easy to find the RSS URL. It is:

http://www.bloglines.com/blog/CurtHibbs/rss

I'm going to cc this to ruby-talk in case other's are having the same
problem.

I really think I'm going to switch to another provider, because I want
people to be able to leave comments. I'm thinking about trying Google's
blogger.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a *free* weblog provider. I've also
thought about setting up Typo on my server, but I have a fairly slow
uplink bandwidth and I don't really want to clog that up.

Thanks,
Curt

Berger, Daniel

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Mar 30, 2005, 2:08:32 PM3/30/05
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Curt Hibbs [mailto:cu...@hibbs.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2005 12:06 PM
> To: ruby-talk ML; drb...@segment7.net
> Subject: [OT} Need Blog Provider [was Re: Respect and Disappointment]

<snip>



> Does anyone have any suggestions for a *free* weblog
> provider. I've also
> thought about setting up Typo on my server, but I have a fairly slow
> uplink bandwidth and I don't really want to clog that up.
>
> Thanks,
> Curt

LiveJournal? Blogger.com?

Dan

vruz

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Mar 30, 2005, 2:40:29 PM3/30/05
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> Does anyone have any suggestions for a *free* weblog provider. I've also
> thought about setting up Typo on my server, but I have a fairly slow
> uplink bandwidth and I don't really want to clog that up.

Typo is more like a full-blown (and complex) content management system
more appropriate for maybe an online publication, which seems to be a
different business than a blog.

On the other hand, the other option you suggest about using Blogger
(that's the name of the original 'blog' which then Google acquired)
may be too simple if you plan going beyond the traditional personal
blog. Blogger is probably best suited for personal blogs of an
individual or small group of friends.

If it's a ruby-related blog (as I assume it must probably be) and
given the number of fans of your work existing in the rubysphere I
feel confident you will probably be offered plenty of bandwidth and
disk space to run a blog written in Ruby.
(which is good for extensibility and scalability, I've heard :-)

Keep up with the good work !
cheers,
vruz


Robert McGovern

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Mar 30, 2005, 2:41:10 PM3/30/05
to
> LiveJournal? Blogger.com?
>
> Dan

I'd second LiveJournal, I've been using it for 3 years now and its a
good service and either free or paid.

It supports comments and RSS feeds and can be used to follow other
peoples feeds as if they were "friends".

Rob


Matthias Luedtke

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Mar 30, 2005, 2:45:12 PM3/30/05
to
vruz wrote:
>>Does anyone have any suggestions for a *free* weblog provider. I've also
>>thought about setting up Typo on my server, but I have a fairly slow
>>uplink bandwidth and I don't really want to clog that up.
>
>
> Typo is more like a full-blown (and complex) content management system
> more appropriate for maybe an online publication, which seems to be a
> different business than a blog.

I assume Curt is rather thinking of http://blog.leetsoft.com .

Kind regards,
Matthias

Message has been deleted

vruz

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Mar 30, 2005, 2:45:13 PM3/30/05
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huh, it seems like I misunderstood
when you said 'Typo' I though you were talking about Typo3
(http://www.typo3.com)
which is a popular CMS (written in php)


Robby Russell

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Mar 30, 2005, 3:09:38 PM3/30/05
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yeah, the other Typo. :-)

http://typo.leetsoft.com/

I use it for my rails stuff: http://www.robbyonrails.com/


--
/***************************************
* Robby Russell | Owner.Developer.Geek
* PLANET ARGON | www.planetargon.com
* Portland, OR | ro...@planetargon.com
* 503.351.4730 | blog.planetargon.com
* PHP, Ruby, and PostgreSQL Development
* http://www.robbyonrails.com/
****************************************/

Josef Pospisil

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Mar 31, 2005, 3:39:42 AM3/31/05
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Hello Curt,

cause you don't have comments and David stop comments of this story,
I'll put my opinion here, even if everybody has this thread in ignored.

I fully agree with David and reaction like he is lame, unprofesional
and so are blind in my eyes. It was just his personal view (as I feel
it, but I'm not native speaker as you can see around, so maybe I've
missed something), and maybe reaction like this speaks more about
people writting it (and many of them are authorities for me). I think
that not so many people in our little software world are bigger
proffesinals and totaly seeing forward people like David is. We now
have (as I can see it) one of the best domain specific language for
free, do you think it should happen if David was using wintel? I'dont.

And for funding. I'm living in Czech Republic, and macs are sooo
expensive here (30pc more than in states) and wages are.... guess, but
year ago I've managed to get 12" PB from USA through one friend (funny
she was in Vegas on IBM yearly conference). It costs me half year work
in my university job, but I'm still feeling that it worth every penny
and I get my money back, from work I've done on it. Surely I could do
it on my freebsd machine too, but ... not with such leisure and
happiness. And with no flame, it's just like changing the way you work
on computer (butler, witch, growl ..), I feel like my computer is
working for me (same with ruby and rails), not that I'm working for
him. I think, that if I didn't buy one I never know about Rails, cause
I didn't have time to explore it.

So it's my really long, bad written, late.... and so comment. Sorry for
disturbing, it was just on my mind and I had to say. Even if I'm wrong.

See ya in Prague one day :-). Do you know that czech republic has the
most advanced net (km/person) of railroads in the world?

--
Ing. Josef Pospisil

Richard Dale

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Mar 31, 2005, 4:03:08 AM3/31/05
to
Curt Hibbs wrote:

I mainly use LinuxPPC on Macs. How many DHH brownie points do I score for
that?

I prefer using KDE 3.4 over Mac OS X for program development, and think the
Qt/KDE application framework is as good as Cocoa, even though I've spent 10
years as a professional NeXT/Objective-C programmer.

-- Richard

Bill Atkins

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Mar 31, 2005, 4:17:05 AM3/31/05
to
Ridiculous. You're saying Rails (I'm assuming that's what you mean by
'best domain specific language for free') wouldn't exist if David used
Wintel? Please describe how these two concepts are related.

Curt Hibbs has a good point, and I think he was completely
professional about it. David's post _was_ pretty arrogant. I
personally don't like OS X. I don't like the idea of having to run my
OS only on proprietary hardware. Nor do I like the Apple (and Gems)
method of giving applications separate directories. And to be honest,
I'm not all that impressed with OS X's interface, as crazy as that
might sound. I'm not going to "get over it" and switch. I've used OS
X computers and they're not for me. I'm sure others have had similar
experiences. And I'm sure others have used OS X and loved it. Good
for them.

The fact is, you pick the environment you're most productive in and
you leave it at that. Curt Hibbs and I (and whoever else) have a
right to be bothered by the article. Paul Graham says a lot of
things; his opinion about what "the best hackers" use isn't really a
solid reason for me to consider shelling out a few thousand dollars
for what, to me, is not an ideal system. David's post suggested that
everyone not using a Mac is being intentionally stubborn or stupid -
that they were too dumb to see that they should be moving to the Mac.
Curt Hibbs had a right to be frustrated, and I'm glad he brought it
up.

Bill Atkins

P.S. I would have posted this comment on LoudThinking, but the
comments have been closed there.


--
$stdout.sync = true
"Just another Ruby hacker.".each_byte do |b|
('a'..'z').step do|c|print c+"\b";sleep 0.007 end;print b.chr
end; print "\n"


Jim Burton

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Mar 31, 2005, 4:25:34 AM3/31/05
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On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 18:17:05 +0900, Bill Atkins <batk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ridiculous. You're saying Rails (I'm assuming that's what you mean by
> 'best domain specific language for free') wouldn't exist if David used
> Wintel? Please describe how these two concepts are related.
>
> Curt Hibbs has a good point, and I think he was completely
> professional about it. David's post _was_ pretty arrogant. I
> personally don't like OS X. I don't like the idea of having to run my
> OS only on proprietary hardware. Nor do I like the Apple (and Gems)
> method of giving applications separate directories. And to be honest,
> I'm not all that impressed with OS X's interface, as crazy as that
> might sound. I'm not going to "get over it" and switch.

[snip]

+1. Personally I have a stronger bias towards free software than to
slick design which is why I use a free OS - I could install that OS on
a mac but that would be like the windows tax * 5.

Either a very childish attitude or trolling.


George Moschovitis

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Mar 31, 2005, 4:34:53 AM3/31/05
to
> +1. Personally I have a stronger bias towards free software than to
> slick design which is why I use a free OS - I could install that OS on
> a mac but that would be like the windows tax * 5.

Even better, you could install your free OS on a super-sexy Sony VAIO
laptop (check out Sony VAIO VGN-FS115M). Gnome 2.10 looks slick too.

George.

PS: however, I plan to buy a Mac when OSX Tiger gets released.

--
http://nitro.rubyforge.org

Glenn Smith

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Mar 31, 2005, 5:35:58 AM3/31/05
to
Linus (Torvalds) uses a Mac. A twin-processor G5 I believe.

But he reformatted it and now runs Linux on it (unsurprisingly!).


--

All the best
Glenn
Aylesbury, UK


Rob .

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Mar 31, 2005, 5:56:22 AM3/31/05
to
Jim Burton wrote:
> +1. Personally I have a stronger bias towards free software

+1. I believe supporting free software is in the interests of our
political, cultural and social freedom. I prefer my software "free"
(as in freedom), my applications "cross-platform" and my hardware
"value for money". The Mac fails my requirements on all accounts.

Currently at home I'm running Ubuntu Linux on a 12'' Uniwill 223ii
laptop; both look great and perform well. An equivalent PowerBook
would have been considerably more expensive; I paid US$1639 including
shipping for the barebones laptop plus 2.0Ghz Centrino, 1x1GB memory,
60GB 7200rpm HD, 24xDVD/CD+RW and Intel pro 2200 wifi. I installed the
CPU and Ubuntu myself, both easy installs for the most part.

At work Cygwin on Windows let's me pretend I'm on a unix box, while
Mozilla, Open Office, IntelliJ Idea and jEdit all look the same on any
platform. So the underlying operating system is usually transparent to
me for the type of hacking I do.

Rob

Uniwill 223ii - http://uniwill.com/products/mobility/223ii0/223ii0.php
Ubuntu - http://ubuntu.com/


Lopy

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Mar 31, 2005, 6:00:11 AM3/31/05
to

Well, I hate *nix. *nix is a virus that unfortunately will be here for
years to come. What's worse, the so called "hackers" really like that
"everything is a file" mantra. Eh... Unfortunately there isn't really
any good alternative since NT is based on very similar principals - very
little changes. We need a good alternative to this obsolete garbage.
Genera was(is) cool but it's almost dead.
Having to use Ruby/Lisp/Smalltalk on *nix makes me sick :S Oh well, back
to work(*nix!).

Josef Pospisil

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Mar 31, 2005, 6:00:02 AM3/31/05
to
I'm really sorry, if I sound that I'm trolling or something. It's hard
for me to write my meanings in english, with the right accent on words.
And I really didn't want to write that people that are using windows
are worse hackers or programers or whatever. I just wanted to say, that
David can have his own opinion on it and that I'm sharing it.

About rails on wintel and David, I just understood (and maybe again I
get it wrong) that piece of his pasion to write it is based on Mac OS
X. That Apple with its "think different" realy makes you think
different.

So enough is enough, I just wanted to say that I understand what David
said (even my wrong way, how it looks), and don't think he was so
arrogant how everybody wrote.

But again, I'm not native speaker so my words could look dumb, and I
can't help.

Sorry Jim, George and others if it looked like I'm attacking your
attitude.

--
Ing. Josef Pospisil

Francis Hwang

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Mar 31, 2005, 6:17:54 AM3/31/05
to
My .02 cents:

I'm a self-professed Mac snob, myself: I'm typing this on a Powerbook
12", and a few weeks ago I posted a job description that included the
phrase "Apple and Unix snobs highly encouraged to apply." I've never
spent my own money on a computer that wasn't made by Apple, and I've
got an iPod that follows me everywhere I go. Like Paul Graham, I have
been pleased to note that many of the techie events I go to have a high
Powerbook quotient. I find the Linux desktop interface sort of clunky,
and the idea of wrestling with system config issues in Linux doesn't
seem like it's worth the time. And personally, I find the whole design
of the Wintel platform vaguely insulting.

But:

+ To say that you have "run all but dry of understanding for
programmers that willfully pick Windows as their platform of choice" to
me seems to imply a complete disinterest in understanding how other
people make such decisions in the first place. For one thing, I know
plenty of people who have never made the switch out of
cost-consciousness, and I live in New York, not a very cost-conscious
place to begin with.

+ Apple's legal moves, of late, have not been very accepting of open
principles, and those moves should give its supporters pause. There
have been lots of lawsuits and cease-and-desist orders regarding trade
secrets, iTunes hacking, etc., and of course I take this all a bit
personally, considering that Apple shut down my own iPod parody auction
last December on eBay. (I was able to call their bluff and sell it on
my own site; see http://fhwang.net/art/uiuvnse/ for the whole story.)

+ Not every super l33t h4x0r is giving Apple love these days anyway. In
fact, Tim Bray just posted an interesting rant to his blog:
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2005/03/29/Switch . Now, DHH is
a smart guy, but if we're going to start making techie appeals to
authority, I think inventing XML trumps inventing Rails.

In a nutshell: There is no such thing as a self-evidently perfect
platform. Until there is, I'm certainly not willing to judge a
programmer by such a silly thing as what platform he uses. In fact, in
my recent job interviews the question never comes up. There are lots of
other, less ham-handed ways to find if a programmer is the match for
your company ... For me, they're questions like: How familiar are they
with the values of simplicity and power embodied in Ruby? How familiar
are they with the principles and ideas that might be gleaned out of
agile methodologies, design patterns, and refactoring? Do they have
cool shoes?

( Just kidding about that last question. Sort of. )

Francis Hwang
http://fhwang.net/

Nikolai Weibull

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Mar 31, 2005, 7:15:15 AM3/31/05
to
* Bill Atkins (Mar 31, 2005 11:30):

> Paul Graham says a lot of things; his opinion about what "the best
> hackers" use isn't really a solid reason for me to consider shelling
> out a few thousand dollars for what, to me, is not an ideal system.

Good point. However, what I think Paul is mainly talking about are
the Apple laptops, not necessarily Macintoshes in general. When it
comes to choosing a laptop, your basically bound to whatever is
available, as there is no easy way of building one yourself. Then, as
the market is today, you have a choice. You choose to go with something
that is either covered with Intel(R) Inside(TM) and a Microsoft(R)
Windows(TM) Pre-installed stickers or a big outline of an apple.

I think DHH simply phrased his blog-entry a bit slopily, or perhaps
didn't actually manage to say what he was intending to say, that about
choosing your tools well. Let's face it, discussing platforms is so
passe. Hell, Paul Graham has said so repeatedly [1], reasoning that in
the future the only platform will be the Web and it won't matter what
hardware you're using or what operating system you've installed on it.

Listen, what really matters isn't fading menus, zooming windows,
sparkling icons. What really matters, and this is the point DHH was
trying to make, are the tools that use, are contained in, and
are activated by clicking on them. I, for example, am ten times as
productive now as I ever was when I was using Windows. When I was using
Windows, I never found a set of tools that suited my style of work.
When I discovered Linux, I found screen, vim, mutt, and zsh, which all
fit my needs very well. I was still bound to a crappy windowing
environment, but I learned to live with it and later improved it with
tools like ratpoison and a 256-color xterm.

DHH seems to like Mac OS X and the tools that it provides him with. Who
can argue with that? I am really happy with the tools that I have found
over the years using Linux. Who can argue with that? Still, the reason
I was able to do that was that I was allowed to experiment with
different operating systems and different sets of tools. No one decried
that I must use any given system with any given set. I hope that no one
else will be forced into using something that they don't want to use.

Mankind has one inherent freedom: to choose to live the way they want,
doing what they want, and with whoever they wish to do it with. All the
other freedoms that we bestow upon ourselves follow [2].

Please remember that before you tell someone else what to do or what to
think,
nikolai

P.S.
The arguments made in this post aren't directed at anyone in particular;
let's not become haters.
D.S.

[1] Yet he starts blabbing about Mac OS X being 1337, which is kind of
strange.

[2] Well, most people have freedom of speech, for example. Some,
though, aren't allowed to express their love for another human
being the way they want to do it. That's terrible.

--
::: name: Nikolai Weibull :: aliases: pcp / lone-star / aka :::
::: born: Chicago, IL USA :: loc atm: Gothenburg, Sweden :::
::: page: minimalistic.org :: fun atm: gf,lps,ruby,lisp,war3 :::
main(){printf(&linux["\021%six\012\0"],(linux)["have"]+"fun"-97);}


Nikolai Weibull

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Mar 31, 2005, 7:17:52 AM3/31/05
to
* Lopy (Mar 31, 2005 13:15):

> Well, I hate *nix. *nix is a virus that unfortunately will be here for
> years to come. What's worse, the so called "hackers" really like that
> "everything is a file" mantra. Eh... Unfortunately there isn't really
> any good alternative since NT is based on very similar principals -
> very little changes. We need a good alternative to this obsolete
> garbage. Genera was(is) cool but it's almost dead. Having to use
> Ruby/Lisp/Smalltalk on *nix makes me sick :S Oh well, back to
> work(*nix!).

Well put,
nikolai (the sarcastic bastard)

Jamey Cribbs

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Mar 31, 2005, 8:24:30 AM3/31/05
to
Bill Atkins wrote:

>Curt Hibbs has a good point, and I think he was completely
>professional about it. David's post _was_ pretty arrogant. I
>personally don't like OS X. I don't like the idea of having to run my
>OS only on proprietary hardware. Nor do I like the Apple (and Gems)
>method of giving applications separate directories. And to be honest,
>I'm not all that impressed with OS X's interface, as crazy as that
>might sound. I'm not going to "get over it" and switch. I've used OS
>X computers and they're not for me. I'm sure others have had similar
>experiences. And I'm sure others have used OS X and loved it. Good
>for them.
>
>

Amen! My neighbor bought a fancy Powerbook running OS X. I have to go
over to his house every other weekend to help him figure out how to do
something. Every time I sit down in front of his laptop to do
something, I'm struck by how much I DO NOT like OS X. As Bill said, if
you prefer OS X, good for you. Just don't try to shove your particular
dogmatic beliefs down my throat by telling me I am a sub-par programmer
because I don't share your views.

>The fact is, you pick the environment you're most productive in and
>you leave it at that. Curt Hibbs and I (and whoever else) have a
>right to be bothered by the article. Paul Graham says a lot of
>things; his opinion about what "the best hackers" use isn't really a
>solid reason for me to consider shelling out a few thousand dollars
>for what, to me, is not an ideal system. David's post suggested that
>everyone not using a Mac is being intentionally stubborn or stupid -
>that they were too dumb to see that they should be moving to the Mac.
>Curt Hibbs had a right to be frustrated, and I'm glad he brought it
>up.
>
>

My neighbor paid over $2,500 for his Powerbook. I paid $1,300 for my
similarly equipped Emachines laptop. I guess this is one instance where
it pays to be stupid. :-)

Jamey Cribbs

Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination, unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution of this email and any materials contained in any attachments is prohibited. If you receive this message in error, or are not the intended recipient(s), please immediately notify the sender by email and destroy all copies of the original message, including attachments.


Bill Atkins

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Mar 31, 2005, 9:07:00 AM3/31/05
to
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:15:15 +0900, Nikolai Weibull
<mailing-lis...@rawuncut.elitemail.org> wrote:
> I think DHH simply phrased his blog-entry a bit slopily, or perhaps
> didn't actually manage to say what he was intending to say, that about
> choosing your tools well. Let's face it, discussing platforms is so

I don't think it had much to do with sloppiness. A lot of David's
posts (and even, unfortunately, some of those on the official Rails
weblog) have that same edge to them. This is not the first time he's
had to close comments on a post; there have been articles about the
superiority of Rails over Java (for example, the infamous "It's
incredible how much vile bile that lies within the Java community")
that were written in a similar tone and got a lot of the same kind of
feedback in the comments.

Bill Atkins

Stephen Kellett

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Mar 31, 2005, 9:24:37 AM3/31/05
to
In message <424AC3A7...@hibbs.com>, Curt Hibbs <cu...@hibbs.com>
writes

>I've finally started a blog. I really didn't want to go public with it
>until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that
>I feel compelled to comment on.

I shouldn't worry about it. Having gone out of my way to read his blog
entry I can only assume that if this is the current state of "Loud
Thinking" I now know why I don't bother reading it. What utter drivel.

It could just be possible, couldn't it that some people have a different
perspective on things than DHH, and actually, shock, like Windows?
Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
only have one mouse button, etc...

Stephen
--
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information: http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

Stephen Kellett

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Mar 31, 2005, 9:27:06 AM3/31/05
to
In message <66b7e34b05033...@mail.gmail.com>, Bill Atkins
<batk...@gmail.com> writes

>I don't think it had much to do with sloppiness. A lot of David's
>posts (and even, unfortunately, some of those on the official Rails
>weblog) have that same edge to them. This is not the first time he's
>had to close comments on a post; there have been articles about the
>superiority of Rails over Java (for example, the infamous "It's
>incredible how much vile bile that lies within the Java community")
>that were written in a similar tone and got a lot of the same kind of
>feedback in the comments.

So you think he writes this way to get notoriety?

Randy Kramer

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Mar 31, 2005, 10:09:31 AM3/31/05
to
On Thursday 31 March 2005 06:04 am, Lopy wrote:
> What's worse, the so called "hackers" really like that
> "everything is a file" mantra.

What is the alternative mantra / paradigm?

Randy Kramer

Austin Ziegler

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Mar 31, 2005, 10:18:43 AM3/31/05
to
On Mar 31, 2005 6:17 AM, Francis Hwang <se...@fhwang.net> wrote:
> But:
>
> + To say that you have "run all but dry of understanding for
> programmers that willfully pick Windows as their platform of choice" to
> me seems to imply a complete disinterest in understanding how other
> people make such decisions in the first place. For one thing, I know
> plenty of people who have never made the switch out of
> cost-consciousness, and I live in New York, not a very cost-conscious
> place to begin with.

Interestingly, the last time I bought a computer was two years ago. At
the time, I was looking for a lightweight laptop computer (under four
pounds) that was still powerful enough for my needs -- and fit within
my budget. The Mac that had the power I wanted was far too expensive,
IIRC (this would have included a RAM and hard-drive upgrade, I think),
and definitely too heavy.

It is only *now* that I look at Mac hardware that I think that the
prices are approaching reasonable for the power/weight balance.

My criteria limited me to Wintel machines. I won't use Linux -- it's
not ready for primetime. I despise Gnome and dislike KDE. There is a
striking inconsistency in the usability of Linux GUI applications,
mostly toward the "how can you use this stinking pile of..." sort of
comment. (Interestingly, with my most recent system recovery, I was
looking at doing a dual-boot to the machine I'm talking about; no
Linux out there supported my hardware properly. I would have been
looking at a 70% functionality limit.)

I bought a Tablet PC. It was lightweight (4 pounds with keyboard
attached, 3 pounds without) and powerful enough. I have also upgraded
its memory and its disk space. There's NO regrets here, and I resent
the implication that because I chose bleeding edge hardware that's
*different*, I'm a lesser developer.

-austin
--
Austin Ziegler * halos...@gmail.com
* Alternate: aus...@halostatue.ca


James Britt

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 10:26:59 AM3/31/05
to
Austin Ziegler wrote:
> ...and I resent

> the implication that because I chose bleeding edge hardware that's
> *different*, I'm a lesser developer.


Think different, but not different from me.


James


Dick Davies

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 10:32:33 AM3/31/05
to
* Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> [0335 15:35]:

> Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
> only have one mouse button, etc...

You have an opinion which differs from mine! I will fill up a mailing
list for two days arguing the toss about it!

Come on now, guys, if you want to have a 'my OS is leetier than thou'
argument, there are other places to do it.

--
'When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite.'
-- Winston Churchill, On formal declarations of war
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns


James Britt

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 10:39:52 AM3/31/05
to
Stephen Kellett wrote:
>
> So you think he writes this way to get notoriety?


Nah; might just be a spell of blogorrhea.

However, PC users responding to requests for help with Rails might want
to admit to their transgression when posting, so that the recipient
knows to view the response with adequate suspicion.


James

--
"There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and
that is not being talked about."
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorain Gray


Luc Heinrich

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 10:45:19 AM3/31/05
to
Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
> only have one mouse button, etc...

Utter bullshit. Please grow up.

--
Luc Heinrich - luc...@mac.com

James Britt

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 10:44:12 AM3/31/05
to
Dick Davies wrote:
>
> Come on now, guys, if you want to have a 'my OS is leetier than thou'
> argument, there are other places to do it.

0r 47 |3457 p057 1n l33t5p34k.

J4m35


Bill Atkins

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 10:49:13 AM3/31/05
to
My day is ruined.


On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:44:12 +0900, James Britt <jam...@neurogami.com> wrote:
> 0r 47 |3457 p057 1n l33t5p34k.
>
> J4m35

--

Steven Jenkins

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 10:56:28 AM3/31/05
to
Dick Davies wrote:
> You have an opinion which differs from mine! I will fill up a mailing
> list for two days arguing the toss about it!
>
> Come on now, guys, if you want to have a 'my OS is leetier than thou'
> argument, there are other places to do it.

+1

Anybody else like OS/8 or RT-11?

Steve


Tom Copeland

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 11:01:10 AM3/31/05
to

TRS-DOS uber alles!

tom


Curt Hibbs

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 11:01:29 AM3/31/05
to
Luc Heinrich wrote:
> Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
>>only have one mouse button, etc...
>
>
> Utter bullshit. Please grow up.

Let's not get personal, this was I was complaining about in my original
post that started this thread.

We all make our choices based on considerations that are important to
us. Stephen can hate the Mac and you can love the Mac. It is what it is,
and no growing up is required.

Jim Burton

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 11:15:51 AM3/31/05
to

It's got to be Plan 9! There's always room in my partition table for
Glenda the aloof bunny (now there's a mascot) and when I meet
developers who don't use it, well, I leave the room.


Stephen Kellett

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 11:33:13 AM3/31/05
to
In message <9e7db91105033...@mail.gmail.com>, Austin Ziegler
<halos...@gmail.com> writes

>I bought a Tablet PC.

Cool. Tell us more. I've yet to see one of these beasts or meet anyone
thats used one.

Stephen

Stephen Kellett

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 11:35:18 AM3/31/05
to
In message <20050331153...@eris.tenfour>, Dick Davies
<rasp...@hellooperator.net> writes

>* Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> [0335 15:35]:
>> Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
>> only have one mouse button, etc...
>
>Come on now, guys, if you want to have a 'my OS is leetier than thou'
>argument, there are other places to do it.

I'm having that argument. I was stating my reasons for disliking Macs.

Nowhere did I say that Linux/Windows/whatever was better than OS X. I'm
quite happy if you want to pay more for your hardware (after all many
people drive more expensive cars than I do and I don't get upset about
that) and use a different OS.

Stephen Kellett

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 11:31:42 AM3/31/05
to
In message <424C1A19...@neurogami.com>, James Britt
<jam...@neurogami.com> writes

>Nah; might just be a spell of blogorrhea.

:-)

>However, PC users responding to requests for help with Rails might want
>to admit to their transgression when posting, so that the recipient
>knows to view the response with adequate suspicion.

I'd have thought he should welcome Rails uptake on Windows. More proof
he has a good solution. Telling your potential customers they are
somehow lesser for using a platform he doesn't personally like is, well,
it strikes me as that he has an attitude problem.

Look up "Ed Esber" on Google. Look at what company he ran and why it
failed.

Stephen

Stephen Kellett

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 11:36:39 AM3/31/05
to
In message <424C1B19...@neurogami.com>, James Britt
<jam...@neurogami.com> writes

No. By definition, anyone that uses leetspeak, isn't in the elite.

Stephen Kellett

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 11:39:44 AM3/31/05
to
In message <1guaujh.1f4ixjr139hqy6N%luc...@mac.com>, Luc Heinrich
<luc...@mac.com> writes

>Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
>> only have one mouse button, etc...
>
>Utter bullshit. Please grow up.

Identify the statement that isn't true. Overpriced: Lots of others have
given examples. The other two statements are facts.

If you like your Mac that is fine with me. Apparently me not liking Macs
is not fine with you. Who has the more mature attitude? The tolerant
person, or the intolerant?

Joao Pedrosa

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 11:56:27 AM3/31/05
to
Hi,

On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 01:44:46 +0900, Stephen Kellett
<sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <424C1A19...@neurogami.com>, James Britt
> <jam...@neurogami.com> writes
> >Nah; might just be a spell of blogorrhea.
>
> :-)
>
> >However, PC users responding to requests for help with Rails might want
> >to admit to their transgression when posting, so that the recipient
> >knows to view the response with adequate suspicion.
>
> I'd have thought he should welcome Rails uptake on Windows. More proof
> he has a good solution. Telling your potential customers they are
> somehow lesser for using a platform he doesn't personally like is, well,
> it strikes me as that he has an attitude problem.
>
> Look up "Ed Esber" on Google. Look at what company he ran and why it
> failed.

While you are at it, see this:
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/31/1527257&from=rss

The whole IT has an attitude problem -- an attitude that leads
everyone to project failures. You are right, people on Windows, Linux
and Mac keep failing to deliver on time, on budget, what has been
planned. OSs don't matter. People do.

Cheers,
Joao


PA

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 12:03:44 PM3/31/05
to

On Mar 31, 2005, at 18:56, Joao Pedrosa wrote:

> The whole IT has an attitude problem -- an attitude that leads
> everyone to project failures. You are right, people on Windows, Linux
> and Mac keep failing to deliver on time, on budget, what has been
> planned. OSs don't matter. People do.

"Managing complexity: Most software projects fail to meet their goals"

http://www.economist.com/business/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3423238

Cheers

--
PA, Onnay Equitursay
http://alt.textdrive.com/

Ben Giddings

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 12:11:58 PM3/31/05
to
Austin Ziegler wrote:
> My criteria limited me to Wintel machines. I won't use Linux -- it's
> not ready for primetime. I despise Gnome and dislike KDE. There is a
> striking inconsistency in the usability of Linux GUI applications,
> mostly toward the "how can you use this stinking pile of..." sort of
> comment. (Interestingly, with my most recent system recovery, I was
> looking at doing a dual-boot to the machine I'm talking about; no
> Linux out there supported my hardware properly. I would have been
> looking at a 70% functionality limit.)

Which hardware is it that you're trying to support? The tablet PC? If
so, there's no surprise there, that's the type of hardware that's least
likely to be well supported under Linux, since it's new and very windowsey.

Hardware support, and drivers in general, are one of the biggest
weaknesses in Linux. Personally, I blame the short-sighted
manufacturers. They focus all their efforts into making sure that their
software works on windows, even to the point of making themed GUIs and
other useless eye candy. On the Linux side, they won't even put in
enough support effort so that other people can write the drivers for them.

Sure, Linux users are only about 1% of the market, but they get much
less than 1% of the effort.

In any case, Linux UIs are getting better all the time. KDE 3.4 is very
good, and very consistent -- but only if you stick to KDE applications.
It's still a bit annoying for me, since I use Thunderbird, Firefox and
Emacs. I can get Thunderbird and Firefox to use the same widgets as the
other KDE apps with the help of gtk-qt-engine, but some things like
printing and clipboard usage, etc. are still inconsistent.

OTOH, I get the commandline. Having a native ZSH, a simple to use
package manager, and everything for free means that there's no reason
for me to use Windows at all anymore. Windows just didn't work the way
I needed, Linux does. I should say *nix does, because I also have an
iBook which I love.

The other factor for me is cost. I have thousands of packages on my
system, all of which are free. My work PC cost nothing more than the
components, but every Windows PC at work also requires an OS ($), Office
($), an IDE ($), a virus scanner ($), and so on. My PC is so hassle and
cost-free for IT that they want to give me hardware instead.

Of course, YMMV. I'm glad that we have really good Ruby people using
every OS out there. That helps make sure that all platforms work well
with Ruby, and that none of the platforms get left behind. Having a
good, consistent Ruby environment on every platform is a great help for
Ruby coders and users of Ruby apps and libs.

Ben


Stephen Kellett

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 12:13:07 PM3/31/05
to
In message <ca24287805033...@mail.gmail.com>, Joao Pedrosa
<joaop...@gmail.com> writes

>The whole IT has an attitude problem -- an attitude that leads
>everyone to project failures. You are right, people on Windows, Linux
>and Mac keep failing to deliver on time, on budget, what has been
>planned. OSs don't matter. People do.

Go it in one.

Austin Ziegler

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 12:22:54 PM3/31/05
to
On Mar 31, 2005 12:11 PM, Ben Giddings <bg-ru...@infofiend.com> wrote:
> Austin Ziegler wrote:
>> My criteria limited me to Wintel machines. I won't use Linux --
>> it's not ready for primetime. I despise Gnome and dislike KDE.
>> There is a striking inconsistency in the usability of Linux GUI
>> applications, mostly toward the "how can you use this stinking
>> pile of..." sort of comment. (Interestingly, with my most recent
>> system recovery, I was looking at doing a dual-boot to the
>> machine I'm talking about; no Linux out there supported my
>> hardware properly. I would have been looking at a 70%
>> functionality limit.)
> Which hardware is it that you're trying to support? The tablet PC?
> If so, there's no surprise there, that's the type of hardware
> that's least likely to be well supported under Linux, since it's
> new and very windowsey.

That's part of it, and why I went with a single-boot Tablet PC with
Windows XP Tablet last time I needed to reinstall (on a larger hard
drive). But Linux support of laptops is questionable in general (I
haven't had any luck with hibernation or even suspend) and is as
questionable on some USB/USB2 devices.

I understand that most of this is the problem of manufacturers, but
it's also a problem of the licence behind Linux and the hard-line
that some kernel developers take wrt "non-free" code.

> Sure, Linux users are only about 1% of the market, but they get
> much less than 1% of the effort.

I'd be surprised if Linux users are even that much of the market for
new and hot hardware.

> In any case, Linux UIs are getting better all the time. KDE 3.4 is
> very good, and very consistent -- but only if you stick to KDE
> applications. It's still a bit annoying for me, since I use
> Thunderbird, Firefox and Emacs. I can get Thunderbird and Firefox
> to use the same widgets as the other KDE apps with the help of
> gtk-qt-engine, but some things like printing and clipboard usage,
> etc. are still inconsistent.

Yeah, well, KDE is my preferred GUI when I have to use Linux. Gnome
is a beast and won't ever be anything but.

> OTOH, I get the commandline. Having a native ZSH, a simple to use
> package manager, and everything for free means that there's no
> reason for me to use Windows at all anymore. Windows just didn't
> work the way I needed, Linux does. I should say *nix does, because
> I also have an iBook which I love.

*shrug* That's where we differ. I use a Norton Commander clone
(Total Commander) in place of the command-line most of the time. I
use the command-line in Windows to great effect for many things, and
I can drop into Cygwin if I need to.

> The other factor for me is cost. I have thousands of packages on
> my system, all of which are free. My work PC cost nothing more
> than the components, but every Windows PC at work also requires an
> OS ($), Office ($), an IDE ($), a virus scanner ($), and so on. My
> PC is so hassle and cost-free for IT that they want to give me
> hardware instead.

The OS is included with the cost of my specialty hardware, but I'll
grant you the OS cost. I haven't installed MS Office on my tablet PC
this time around (I will, eventually, since I have the licence for
it), but I have installed OpenOffice. I can use the free Windows
development tools, but most of my development on that machine is in
Ruby -- I don't need an IDE. The virus scanner that I use is free.
The only thing that I use in development that I paid for is Total
Commander -- and it's worth every penny.

I do have other software which I've bought that makes it very hard
to move from Windows, and it's really good software. But it's not my
development or word processing software.

Stephen Kellett

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 12:16:38 PM3/31/05
to
In message <e4fbd4562864e490...@gmail.com>, PA
<petite....@gmail.com> writes

>"Managing complexity: Most software projects fail to meet their goals"
>
>http://www.economist.com/business/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3423238

Quote from the article:
"There are five steps involved in creating a piece of software:
enumerating the requirements; designing the program; actually writing
the code; testing it; and then deploying it. "

I disagree with this. There is definitely another step to be performed.
Hiring the right people. The right people for one project are not
necessarily the right people for another project.

Gavri Fernandez

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 12:41:25 PM3/31/05
to
Background: Was using a Linux box at home during the last 3 years
of college. Windows at work for almost 3 years now (The full length of
my working life). I spend a lot of time on Cygwin while working on
Windows because the command-line tools that come with Windows are
pretty useless. Never seen a Mac in my life (Not counting TV and pics
in magazines).

My point is this: When I read Paul Graham's article and David's
post about Macs, what I felt was not anger or disappointment but pure
freaking happiness that there is something better out there --
something I can look forward t!. The reactions in this thread are from
Mac users who go "Macs are great! You should try it!" or from
Linux/Windows users "What an elitist attitude".

What about all the Windows users who look forward to using Macs?!?
Am I the only one? :-)


--
Gavri
http://gavri.blogspot.com


Nikolai Weibull

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 1:01:38 PM3/31/05
to
* Austin Ziegler (Mar 31, 2005 19:30):

> > OTOH, I get the commandline. Having a native ZSH, a simple to use
> > package manager, and everything for free means that there's no
> > reason for me to use Windows at all anymore. Windows just didn't
> > work the way I needed, Linux does. I should say *nix does, because I
> > also have an iBook which I love.

> *shrug* That's where we differ. I use a Norton Commander clone (Total
> Commander) in place of the command-line most of the time. I use the
> command-line in Windows to great effect for many things, and I can
> drop into Cygwin if I need to.

Ah, a fellow total commander addict. It's the one application I have
installed on my Windows installation besides Warcraft 3,
nikolai

--
::: name: Nikolai Weibull :: aliases: pcp / lone-star / aka :::
::: born: Chicago, IL USA :: loc atm: Gothenburg, Sweden :::
::: page: minimalistic.org :: fun atm: gf,lps,ruby,lisp,war3 :::
main(){printf(&linux["\021%six\012\0"],(linux)["have"]+"fun"-97);}


James F. Hranicky

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 1:18:54 PM3/31/05
to
On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 02:29:45 +0900
Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> "There are five steps involved in creating a piece of software:
> enumerating the requirements; designing the program; actually writing
> the code; testing it; and then deploying it. "
>
> I disagree with this. There is definitely another step to be performed.
> Hiring the right people. The right people for one project are not
> necessarily the right people for another project.

I think this is closer

Project.hire()
Project.requirements()

begin
Project.design()
rescue Project::RequirementsChange
Project.redo_requirements
retry
rescue Project::SlackerProgrammer, Project::GroupCantGetalong
Project.adjust_personnel
retry
end

begin
Project.code()
rescue Project::RequirementsChange
Project.redo_requirements
Project.redesign
Project.arguments_with_spouse
retry
rescue Project::SlackerProgrammer, Project::GroupCantGetalong
Project.adjust_personnel
retry
rescue Project::DesignActuallySucked
Project.redesign
Project.work_late
Project.start_drinking
retry
end

begin
Project.test()
rescue Project::RequirementsChange
Project.curse_customer
Project.consider_culinary_school
Project.redo_requirements
Project.redesign
Project.salvage_as_much_code_as_possible
Project.recode
Project.separation_from_family
retry
rescue Project::SlackerProgrammer, Project::GroupCantGetalong
Project.adjust_personnel
Project.consider_your_own_adjustment
Project.hate_all_people
retry
rescue Project::DesignActuallySucked
Project.redesign
Project.work_late
Project.start_drinking
Project.salvage_as_much_code_as_possible
Project.recode
retry
end

begin
Project.deploy()
rescue Project::RequirementsChange
Project.wait_until_v_2_0
rescue Project::SlackerProgrammer, Project::GroupCantGetalong
Project.fire_everyone
retry
rescue Project::DesignActuallySucked
Project.too_bad
retry
rescue Project::AFewBugs
Project.maintain
rescue Project::ALotOfBugs
Project.work_late
Project.divorce
Project.know_project_members_better_than_I_ever_knew_spouse
Project.wish_I_built_bridges_instead
retry
rescue Project::TonsOfBugs
Project.scrap
end


Project.earn_money_if_havent_exited_yet
Project.therapy
Project.go_to_culinary_school

Jim


Jon Raphaelson

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 1:33:09 PM3/31/05
to
Stephen Kellett wrote:
> In message <e4fbd4562864e490...@gmail.com>, PA
> <petite....@gmail.com> writes
>
>> "Managing complexity: Most software projects fail to meet their goals"
>>
>> http://www.economist.com/business/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=3423238
>
>
> Quote from the article:
> "There are five steps involved in creating a piece of software:
> enumerating the requirements; designing the program; actually writing
> the code; testing it; and then deploying it. "
>
> I disagree with this. There is definitely another step to be performed.
> Hiring the right people. The right people for one project are not
> necessarily the right people for another project.
>
> Stephen

Still one more step: Sell the bloddy hell out of the thing. Whether it
be open source and your goal is downloads or commercial and your goal is
$$, software isn't finished until it's in the end users hands IMHO.

Jon


Rob .

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 1:56:09 PM3/31/05
to
Nikolai Weibull wrote:
> However, what I think Paul is mainly talking about are
> the Apple laptops, not necessarily Macintoshes in general. When it
> comes to choosing a laptop, your basically bound to whatever is
> available, as there is no easy way of building one yourself. Then, as
> the market is today, you have a choice. You choose to go with something
> that is either covered with Intel(R) Inside(TM) and a Microsoft(R)
> Windows(TM) Pre-installed stickers or a big outline of an apple.

Just to let everyone know - you do have a choice when it comes to
laptops. I bought a no-name barebones laptop (Uniwill 223ii), added
the processor myself and installed Ubuntu GNU/Linux on it. The laptop
looks cool, so does the Ubuntu desktop, and the performance is great
because I got fast hardware for my money. No Windows tax and no Apple
tax either, but great for developing Ruby code on!

For people in developing countries the cost of proprietary software
(including the embedded marketing and legal costs) is an unnecessary
and unwanted expense. Free software can provide for their needs,
promote IT industry in their local economy and improve their nation's
trade balance.

Great (Ruby) prog'ers can and will come from developing nations, but
they don't need to be beholden to Microsoft or Apple to shine, neither
do the rest of us.


Mark Probert

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 2:18:24 PM3/31/05
to
Hi ..

On Thursday 31 March 2005 04:15, Nikolai Weibull wrote:
> * Bill Atkins (Mar 31, 2005 11:30):
> > Paul Graham says a lot of things; his opinion about what "the best
> > hackers" use isn't really a solid reason for me to consider shelling
> > out a few thousand dollars for what, to me, is not an ideal system.
>
>
> I think DHH simply phrased his blog-entry a bit slopily,
>
I am not so sure of that ...

> What really matters, and this is the point DHH was
> trying to make, are the tools that use, are contained in, and
> are activated by clicking on them.
>

DHH said "... good programmers are wielding Macs. There's the odd exception of
Linux here and there". So, the logic he follows is that IF you are a GOOD
programmer, you will be using, or switching to a Mac, preferably a Power
Book.

Clearly a troll, though I find his comments unfortunate. I have worked with a
lot of exceptional programmers. Given that many of these projects where for
embedded systems, their usage total of Macs was zero. DHH clearly implies
that they aren't worth their salt. The same goes for those talented
individuals I have worked with when we where doing client work on Sun boxes,
on IBM AS/400s and so on.

How sad to have such a biased and unkind view of the world.

The question that I personally ask myself is, given these comments, why would
I want to use Rails when there are lots of alternatives?

Regards,

--
-mark. (probertm at acm dot org)


Dick Davies

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 2:31:44 PM3/31/05
to
* Mark Probert <prob...@acm.org> [0318 20:18]:


> Clearly a troll, though I find his comments unfortunate. I have worked with a
> lot of exceptional programmers. Given that many of these projects where for
> embedded systems, their usage total of Macs was zero. DHH clearly implies
> that they aren't worth their salt. The same goes for those talented
> individuals I have worked with when we where doing client work on Sun boxes,
> on IBM AS/400s and so on.

But they don't 'wield them', do they? Not unless they're the size of king kong,
at least.



> The question that I personally ask myself is, given these comments, why would
> I want to use Rails when there are lots of alternatives?

The simple answer is 'because it's really good.'

The next question that springs to mind is:

'what the hell does the developers personality have to do with your choice
of tools?'

--
'The heroes claimed that they did care about people getting shot,
so they crashed their cars into them instead.'
-- DNA, on 'Starsky and Hutch'
Rasputin :: Jack of All Trades - Master of Nuns


Dick Davies

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 2:35:18 PM3/31/05
to
* Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> [0346 17:46]:

> In message <20050331153...@eris.tenfour>, Dick Davies
> <rasp...@hellooperator.net> writes
> >* Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> [0335 15:35]:
> >>Frankly, I hate Macs, because they are overpriced, proprietary, still
> >>only have one mouse button, etc...
> >
> >Come on now, guys, if you want to have a 'my OS is leetier than thou'
> >argument, there are other places to do it.
>
> I'm having that argument. I was stating my reasons for disliking Macs.

That's cool, I'm just bitching to the world at large here...

--
'zzz..Kill all humans. Kill all humans..zzz .....
I was having the most wonderous dream. You were in it.'
-- Bender

Luc Heinrich

unread,
Mar 31, 2005, 2:44:22 PM3/31/05
to
Stephen Kellett <sn...@objmedia.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Identify the statement that isn't true. Overpriced: Lots of others have
> given examples. The other two statements are facts.

No, these are not facts. These are out-of-context pontifications. This
kind of trollish bullcrap has been "debated" for more than a decade now,
and I don't think that polluting this beatiful place with such nonsense
is a good idea. I shouldn't have replied to begin with, but I can't help
it. Sorry.

> If you like your Mac that is fine with me. Apparently me not liking Macs
> is not fine with you.

No, you don't understand. I really don't care, if Windows is your cup of
te a, so be it. I really, really don't care. However, I am really sick
and tired of reading this kind of nonsense (that, and that Python is an
elegant language). As I said, I should have just ignored these
nonsensical drivels, but again, I just can't help it.

Now face it. Macs are better, they come with Ruby pre-installed :p

--
Luc Heinrich - luc...@mac.com

Mark Probert

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Mar 31, 2005, 2:45:50 PM3/31/05
to
Hi ..

On Thursday 31 March 2005 07:09, Randy Kramer wrote:
> On Thursday 31 March 2005 06:04 am, Lopy wrote:
> > What's worse, the so called "hackers" really like that
> > "everything is a file" mantra.
>
> What is the alternative mantra / paradigm?
>

Have a look at

http://tunes.org/Review/OSes.html

A few paradigms come to mind:

Object Oriented -- all OS components are first class objects (Oberon)
Distributed Objects -- all OS components are distributed objects (Amoeba)
No Files -- there is no concept of files at all, just an app (embedded OSs)

The "everything is a file" is a *nix mantra. The original MacOS wasn't like
that at all.

Luc Heinrich

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Mar 31, 2005, 2:48:16 PM3/31/05
to
Mark Probert <prob...@acm.org> wrote:

> Given that many of these projects where for
> embedded systems, their usage total of Macs was zero.

"A lot of early coverage of the Mac Mini compares it to desktop PCs, or
even micro-ATX cases and other small PCs. What it looks like, though, is
a high-end embedded development board. Comparing it to other embedded
systems, you'll find that it's not much bigger, and it's smaller than
some. It has a broader array of connectors, a faster processor, support
for a very large amount of memory, and comes with self-hosted
development tools. In short, if you look at it as an embedded
development platform, it's a competitive one."

<http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-macmini1/?ca=dgr
-mw01macminip1>

:)

David Heinemeier Hansson

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Mar 31, 2005, 3:06:17 PM3/31/05
to
> I've finally started a blog. I really didn't want to go public with it
> until I was sure I keep it up, but DHH posted a entry to his blog that
> I feel compelled to comment on.

(I hadn't spotted the cross-posting at first, so here's a reprint for
those not on that list)

There's no mistake. Hiring a programmer is a composite image of many
things good and bad. For 37signals, it's definitely a disadvantage to
still be a Windows user. I wouldn't say that it's impossible, just
considerably harder, to convince us that it didn't matter too much.

The choices you make as a programmer serves as indicators for your
cultural standing and performance. The kind of books you read, the
methodologies that you favor, the pastime projects you're involved
with, and yes, your choice of programming language and computing
environment.

Just like hiring someone with a declared love for Java wouldn't make
sense for 37signals, hiring someone who thinks that Windows is the best
platform for open source use and development doesn't make that much
sense either.

If your funds are tight, I'd see it natural that you picked a free
alternative, like Linux.

Naturally, this is a fairly context-dependent recommendation. If your
dream job is working on C# using Visual Studio for some Microsoft shop,
then of course a Windows setup is a good pick. I'm going to be a bit
baffled as to why that is, but I won't berate your choice of
environment to pursue that dream.

On the other hand, if you want to work with open source technologies
like the Rails stack of Apache/lighttpd, MySQL/PostgreSQL, Ruby/Rails,
etc, I find a strong disconnect with doing so from Windows. It's just
not a natural fit neither from a technological, cultural, or political
perspective. Actively pursuing or celebrating this unnatural fit raises
a red flag for me.

Additionally, I don't buy into the notion that discussion choice of
computing platform is similar to discussing what color you like better
or other instinctive matters. The choice is a conscious one and open
for debate.
--
David Heinemeier Hansson,
http://www.basecamphq.com/ -- Web-based Project Management
http://www.rubyonrails.org/ -- Web-application framework for Ruby
http://www.loudthinking.com/ -- Broadcasting Brain

why the lucky stiff

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Mar 31, 2005, 3:28:25 PM3/31/05