Free(real Free) GUI toolkits
David Ross
Ruby? They seem to be neat and clean on the unix
operating systems. Anyone tried it with Windows or
MacOSX? I need some input please. It is a MIT licensed
and completely free toolkit, compared to LGPL. It has
a IDE which is very easy to design with. It has
extensions for many languages.
English page: http://www.widestudio.org/EE/index.html
Japanese page: http://www.widestudio.org
Please give some input on it.
Supports C/C++, Perl, Python, Ruby programing
language.
--David Ross
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Hal Fulton
> Has anyone tried using the WideStudio libraries with
> Ruby? They seem to be neat and clean on the unix
> operating systems. Anyone tried it with Windows or
> MacOSX? I need some input please. It is a MIT licensed
> and completely free toolkit, compared to LGPL. It has
> a IDE which is very easy to design with. It has
> extensions for many languages.
>
> English page: http://www.widestudio.org/EE/index.html
> Japanese page: http://www.widestudio.org
>
> Please give some input on it.
>
> Supports C/C++, Perl, Python, Ruby programing
> language.
I haven't tried this (or even heard of it before), but it does sound
interesting.
Some questions I would have:
1. It mentions it supports Ruby -- I guess the app designer can generate
Ruby code -- but I've never heard of a Ruby binding for it. What's the
deal there?
2. I wonder if it supports MDI. I know the whole industry is trending
away from MDI, but I adamantly maintain that it makes sense in some
cases. (Large number of tiny documents as opposed to a small number
of large docs.)
Hal
David Ross
> but it does sound
> interesting.
author revived it. I hope people to contribute code. I
will create X widgets myself for commercial purposes,
and submit them. Just because it isnt LGPL or
GPL(restrictive licenses).
>
> Some questions I would have:
>
> 1. It mentions it supports Ruby -- I guess the app
> designer can generate
> Ruby code -- but I've never heard of a Ruby binding
> for it. What's the
> deal there?
You open wsbuilder, go in to options, then click etc.
then change the language to ruby. then you click
generate code.
here is a small piece of the code generated.
@newdial_006 =
Mpfc::WSCdialog.new(@newbase_005,"newdial_006")
@newdial_006.init
@newdial_006.setProperty("name","newdial_006")
@newdial_006.setProperty("titleString","title5")
@newdial_006.setProperty("x",10)
@newdial_006.setProperty("y",10)
@newdial_006.setProperty("width",200)
@newdial_006.setProperty("height",50)
@newwin000.setVisible(1)
what would be better here is..
Mpfc::WSCdialog.new(@newbase_005,"newdial_006",name,title,x,y,w,h)
maybe it has it, I might just not be looking. I am
fairly new to this GUI toolkit myself. I thought I
should share this MIT licensed kit with the people of
ruby.
I realize this looks a bit messy, someone could help
the developer improve on his code, unless I am just
missing something.
Yes, it does have different look and feels that are
"pretty". I would like to see this free(MIT) toolkit
improve to a better look and feel to the guis and
widgets.
No, it does not have MDI. I think I will promote the
WideStudio and convince people that it can be a good
widely used future toolkit. It still lacks many common
widgets. That doesn't bother me since I know X
programming well though :). I do see a bright future
in this toolkit if it remains free. I would definitely
like to see it used in commercial applications, Widget
creation is not very difficult, it just takes a bit of
X programming with the C language.
--David Ross
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David Ross
Supports UNICODE(UTF8) and multi encoding function
with various kind of encodeing like
EUC-JP,SJIS,EUC-KR,EUC-CN,UTF8,ISO8859-X.
Supports OpenGL and database(PostgreSQL/MySQL/ODBC).
--David Ross
Lothar Scholz
>> I haven't tried this (or even heard of it before),
>> but it does sound
>> interesting.
DR> It was a project started in 2000. It died in 2002, the
DR> author revived it. I hope people to contribute code. I
DR> will create X widgets myself for commercial purposes,
DR> and submit them. Just because it isnt LGPL or
DR> GPL(restrictive licenses).
I hate myself for asking this question:
But what is so wrong with the LGPL in an object oriented GUI toolkit
where you can create commercial X widgets without any problems for any
purpose. I'm speaking about GTK/FOX/FLTK/TK here.
DR> No, it does not have MDI. I think I will promote the
DR> WideStudio and convince people that it can be a good
DR> widely used future toolkit. It still lacks many common
DR> widgets. That doesn't bother me since I know X
DR> programming well though :). I do see a bright future
DR> in this toolkit if it remains free. I would definitely
DR> like to see it used in commercial applications, Widget
DR> creation is not very difficult, it just takes a bit of
DR> X programming with the C language.
I believe that the world really don't need another toolkit, with a lot
of common widgets still missing. Widget creation is also not very
difficult in any toolkit (TK may be an exception).
--
Best regards, emailto: scholz at scriptolutions dot com
Lothar Scholz http://www.ruby-ide.com
CTO Scriptolutions Ruby, PHP, Python IDE 's
David Ross
> But what is so wrong with the LGPL in an object
> oriented GUI toolkit
> where you can create commercial X widgets without
> any problems for any
> purpose. I'm speaking about GTK/FOX/FLTK/TK here.
LGPL has strings, if you don't believe me, reread the
license. Look at the clauses about distributing
non-source binary applications. Then take a really
good look at the clauses in wx and FOX (LGPL and the
wx license) about binary objects(*note: binary objects
are *NOT* binary executables). Thank you for your
input.
> I believe that the world really don't need another
> toolkit, with a lot
> of common widgets still missing. Widget creation is
> also not very
> difficult in any toolkit (TK may be an exception).
This toolkit is more flexible than FOX or
wxWidgets(wxWindows) will ever be. WS was designed for
embedded systems, I am glad that the design works on
nix and windows.
I am glad to use WS now, it has proved more worthy
than FOX,GTK, and Wx. Big deal it lacks the more
common widgets you would find in GTK, or even Qt.
Hopefully, people will support this better toolkit.
You might not find it interesting because most people
do not read about embedded devices and read about
software like T-Engine. Please research this on your
own. the research for WS has been extensive. Its not
just *another* toolkit. Hmm okay, you must not be into
widget design that much, or do not create complex
widgets. I don't know about you, but WS is a very good
IDE. --David Ross
David Ross
and binary.
--- David Ross <dros...@yahoo.com> wrote:
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David Ross
out WideStudio on? I am curious to see if it is
portable to the mac.
WideStudio has plenty of widgets btw. I just didn't
play enough with the wsbuilder.
I guess things like MDI forms are not important :)
--David Ross
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drossruby at yahoo (dot} com
Ruby Production Archive(RPA - the ruby package
manager)
http://rpa-base.rubyforge.org/
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Rando Christensen
> Hmm.. does anyone have a MacOSX computer they can try
> out WideStudio on? I am curious to see if it is
> portable to the mac.
>
> WideStudio has plenty of widgets btw. I just didn't
> play enough with the wsbuilder.
>
> I guess things like MDI forms are not important :)
>
Seems like it works pretty well. As a warning, it runs under apple's
X11. You might have to have people download it, as most people don't
install it by default. It's something like a 60meg download from apple's
site.
--
Rando Christensen
<ey...@illuzionz.org>
Lothar Scholz
DR> Hmm.. does anyone have a MacOSX computer they can try
DR> out WideStudio on? I am curious to see if it is
DR> portable to the mac.
DR> WideStudio has plenty of widgets btw. I just didn't
DR> play enough with the wsbuilder.
Okay i downloaded the 100 MB Win Installer and played a bit with
wsbuilder. I must say that this toolkit can win the second price in
the most ugly toolkit competition (the first is for the all time
winner FLTK). And there is no theming to change this, looking at the
code shows me that there will be no theming for a very long time
because the drawing code is deeply buried in the source files.
I'm sure that the toolkit is more flexible, just because it uses a
TK like approach of managing/accessing attributes by string names. Maybe
not bad but quite different. The event procedures that simple
functions. So writting C++ code would require extra overhead, but it
is okay for different language bindings.
The documentation seems not be on the state of a 3.1 release. It
describes methods but not which properties are available. There seems
to be also no real tutorial for starters. I must say that i don't
like FAQ like tutorials, that have a lot of "How to " titles but no
integrated 10 min learn the basics code.
From the technical point i don't like that the lib has no layout
mangement (only Delphi like anchors), a very bad option for everybody
who wants to do L10N. The implemented widgets are very very basic.
As a toolkit written in Japan there are of course unicode/MBCS (?)
handling routines. From the widget design it seems to be much much
harder to write or adapt widgets as it is in FOX/QT. I just looked at
the "WSClist.cpp" source code to find a place where i can overwrite
the item draw method to use my own custom draw hook. It's not
possible. But looking at the source code, hey man that code is ugly and
completely comment free. Other things, radio+check buttons must always
be grouped, so there seems to be also no good separation for
layout/logic in the toolkit.
So i think it is good that this is a dead project. Don't waste your
time to try to work with this toolkit. After working about 8 years
with writting GUI's i can tell you that the afford you need to bring
this upto date (compared to GTK/QT/FOX) is too expensive and i really
doubt that you will find so much programmers helping you.
Oh yes i forgot, the WxBuilder - the GUI builder - is nothing where
anybody want's to write larger dialogs.
David Ross
Maybe someone could port it to use a native toolkit if
it really irritates them. --David Ross
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James Britt
> Please give some input on it.
I thought I'd give it a try on Win2K.
It took a bit of time to figure out how to construct a basic
window/form. I still don't see how to attach code to controls.
Help does not work correctly. It attempts to load this URL
http://%1%20"file://E:/Program%20Files/WideStudio/ws/doc/C/builder-doc/builder.html"
It loads if I remove the section just before "E:/"
It would be nice if each page in the set of help Web pages had a "next"
and "previous" link, as right now one has to go back to the table of
contents to move to find the link to move to the next section.
So far, don't find it all too intuitive. Little things seem awkward.
For example, when I click on the 'Save' icon, I get a message box
telling me some things have changed, and do I want to save them? Well,
yes. That's why I clicked the 'Save' icon.
And WS Builder doesn't respond to Alt-F4.
James
David Ross
ass
Only good people deserve respect"
You know. you are the biggest troll I have ever seen
on the mailing list. Really, stop. I'm not kidding. It
has all you need. Its free as well, no strings
attached. I don't know what the hell your problem is,
but stop. Below is my sample app I constructed in 15
minutes after learning the interface. it is simple to
create than others. It is very flexible as well. text
looks great widgets work great, and it looks the same
way on windows. I tried it, works fine. THanks now
stfu lothar_troll.
http://www.deviantart.com/view/9394050/
You didn't even research why WideStudio was created.
> Okay i downloaded the 100 MB Win Installer and
> played a bit with
> wsbuilder. I must say that this toolkit can win the
> second price in
> the most ugly toolkit competition (the first is for
> the all time
> winner FLTK). And there is no theming to change
> this, looking at the
> code shows me that there will be no theming for a
> very long time
> because the drawing code is deeply buried in the
> source files.
>
Send patches
> I'm sure that the toolkit is more flexible, just
> because it uses a
> TK like approach of managing/accessing attributes by
> string names. Maybe
> not bad but quite different. The event procedures
> that simple
> functions. So writting C++ code would require extra
> overhead, but it
> is okay for different language bindings.
Send patches.
>
> The documentation seems not be on the state of a 3.1
> release. It
> describes methods but not which properties are
> available. There seems
> to be also no real tutorial for starters. I must
> say that i don't
> like FAQ like tutorials, that have a lot of "How to
> " titles but no
> integrated 10 min learn the basics code.
>
Send patches
> From the technical point i don't like that the lib
> has no layout
> mangement (only Delphi like anchors), a very bad
> option for everybody
> who wants to do L10N. The implemented widgets are
> very very basic.
> As a toolkit written in Japan there are of course
> unicode/MBCS (?)
> handling routines. From the widget design it seems
> to be much much
> harder to write or adapt widgets as it is in FOX/QT.
> I just looked at
> the "WSClist.cpp" source code to find a place where
> i can overwrite
> the item draw method to use my own custom draw hook.
> It's not
> possible. But looking at the source code, hey man
> that code is ugly and
> completely comment free. Other things, radio+check
> buttons must always
> be grouped, so there seems to be also no good
> separation for
> layout/logic in the toolkit.
>
send patches or shut up.
> So i think it is good that this is a dead project.
You are trolling. Stop
> Don't waste your
> time to try to work with this toolkit. After working
> about 8 years
> with writting GUI's i can tell you that the afford
> you need to bring
> this upto date (compared to GTK/QT/FOX) is too
> expensive and i really
> doubt that you will find so much programmers helping
> you.
>
not really.
> Oh yes i forgot, the WxBuilder - the GUI builder -
> is nothing where
> anybody want's to write larger dialogs.
umm works fine for large guis.
------------------------------------------------
Brought to you by the world biggest IRC asshole
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Only good people deserve respect
David Ross
dros...@yahoo.com
Michael Neumann
> http://www.deviantart.com/view/9394050/
Looks really nice to me. Could you post somewhere the code? Only code
tells the truth... ;-)
Regards,
Michael
David Ross
>
> It took a bit of time to figure out how to construct
> a basic
> window/form. I still don't see how to attach code
> to controls.
>
mmmm. I have seen it somewhere. Oh right... its in the
procedures. you have to create procedures, then double
click on them, it will open your favorite editor, I
think you can set the editor in options.
> Help does not work correctly. It attempts to load
> this URL
>
>
Its main aim was unix oriented systems and the
T-Engine. I guess patches could be made, is this on
all the help or just that one?
> It would be nice if each page in the set of help Web
> pages had a "next"
> and "previous" link, as right now one has to go back
> to the table of
> contents to move to find the link to move to the
> next section.
>
the documentation is *HUGE*. There should be.. would
be nice. I think that there are no comments in the
code specifically because they stripped comments out.
If the comments were in per say UTF8(which I guess
they have thier own parser) the sources would be
double the size.
> So far, don't find it all too intuitive. Little
> things seem awkward.
Yes, I do too, I have even found bugs that I will end
up writing patches for. There is something strange
with the WSNdata in the tree and list controls in the
wsbuilder gui.
> For example, when I click on the 'Save' icon, I
> get a message box
> telling me some things have changed, and do I want
> to save them? Well,
> yes. That's why I clicked the 'Save' icon.
>
:) I know, I laughed at this. It saves on exit asking
you the same question, and saves when you click
compile. I should patch the gui all to hell, I found a
memory leak in 1 widget in the ObjectViewer that lets
you drag and drop widgets so you don't have to learn
the names.. if you would. try creating a progress bar
from the objectViewer, It could be a library problem
on my system, unsure.
> And WS Builder doesn't respond to Alt-F4.
>
was not aimed to be on windows. Maybe I could take a
look at this "horrible" code (/me laughs) lothar_troll
is talking about later. I did look at the code too, I
did see no problem with that type of style, names were
defined very well where I could look and tell what it
was, but then again, I know how to code well.
--David
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Mikael Brockman
> "Truth is important, knock down the trolls on thier
> ass
> Only good people deserve respect"
>
> You know. you are the biggest troll I have ever seen
> on the mailing list. Really, stop. I'm not kidding. It
> has all you need. Its free as well, no strings
> attached. I don't know what the hell your problem is,
> but stop. Below is my sample app I constructed in 15
> minutes after learning the interface. it is simple to
> create than others. It is very flexible as well. text
> looks great widgets work great, and it looks the same
> way on windows. I tried it, works fine. THanks now
> stfu lothar_troll.
For what it's worth, I appreciated his review. I don't think I'm ever
going near this toolkit. It would be interesting to see you actually
answer any of his issues instead of just mindlessly spamming "SEND
PATCHES TROLL."
mikael
Lothar Scholz
DR> You know. you are the biggest troll I have ever seen
DR> on the mailing list. Really, stop. I'm not kidding. It
DR> has all you need. Its free as well, no strings
Maybe it has what you need to build some sample applications,
but as you write on your own a few important advanced widgets
(and features) are missing.
DR> attached. I don't know what the hell your problem is,
DR> but stop. Below is my sample app I constructed in 15
DR> minutes after learning the interface. it is simple to
DR> create than others. It is very flexible as well. text
DR> looks great widgets work great, and it looks the same
DR> way on windows. I tried it, works fine. THanks now
DR> stfu lothar_troll.
Okay 4 things that are quite bad when you try WS Builder.
- Tab Focus Movement in Widgets do not work
- Moving the selected item in the tree/list widgets outside the
window with the cursor keys do not scroll the window.
- The typical far eastern style with "File (F)" menus looks
ugly in western countries.
- Key Handling in Menus does not working.
Because i think WS Builder might be the biggest software build with
this toolkit (The website has not one reference to a real world
application) it can be seen as a reference. I know this are minor
things but there is an old rule in the industry: The first 90% of a
program takes 10% of the time and the last 10% takes 90% of the time.
And by the way, a Windows App look different then your
Linux App.
DR> You didn't even research why WideStudio was created.
Where can i find this ? Maybe you can tell me here why it was
created ?
And does history really matter when someone
picks it up to write a ruby application ?
I doubt. People pick up tools that help them to do there tasks,
not to increase the amout of work they already must do.
DR> Send patches
(Repeated 5 times)
Nice, this shows that you now that a lot of things must be done.
I don't doubt that with a lot of energy you can turn this into a
really good toolkit. But you can say this to any other toolkit as
well. So where is your point why WSStudio is so much better ?
Can you point out something else then the license ?
Maybe you can give me some more information why this thing should be
better for embedded systems ? Is there a version working on the Linux
framebuffer or a version for WinCE or handheld's ?
>>
>> The documentation seems not be on the state of a 3.1
>> release. It
>> describes methods but not which properties are
>> available. There seems
DR> Send patches
I don't need to send you, because here i must only look at the website
to see that they are available and only the delivered HTML files are
wrongly packed as noted before by James Britt. Seems that you never
read my posting exactly.
>> So i think it is good that this is a dead project.
DR> You are trolling. Stop
Sometimes you just should look why things are going that way.
What has this to do with trolling ?
Can you please tell me why the project died in 2002 and why
nobody knows about this project if it is so good.
>> Oh yes i forgot, the WxBuilder - the GUI builder -
>> is nothing where
>> anybody want's to write larger dialogs.
DR> umm works fine for large guis.
Which one ? A GUI Builder that relies on hierarchical structure of
widgets and doesn't allow you to move items around in this
hierarchy in an easy way (I speak of the Inspector Tree widget here),
that don't have tools (grid lines/alignment etc.) helping you to do
better layout ? I must not look at it very long to see that i wouldn't
use it with pleasure to do the work.
Okay it's up to you. It's your time that you have to spend on it.
I should learn to not respond to postings like yours or the one who
wants to build a rubycc. They all show the same problem: a lot of
people can't estimate the time a programming task takes. And so a lot
of energy is wasted that could be used much better in other projects.
In the rubycc case i said the persons should work together with matz
on the ruby core, i your case i would suggest to help improve FOX, GTK
or the new drawing engine in TK.
Rando Christensen
> Send patches
> Send patches.
> Send patches
> send patches or shut up.
Please don't do this. Just because a project is open-source does not
mean people have to try to fix it themselves before complaining about
how broken it is.
--
Rando Christensen
<ey...@illuzionz.org>
Lothar Scholz
DR> You know. you are the biggest troll I have ever seen
DR> on the mailing list. Really, stop. I'm not kidding. It
DR> has all you need. Its free as well, no strings
DR> attached. I don't know what the hell your problem is,
DR> but stop.
You can see me as confused as you are.
In your opening post you wrote:
> Has anyone tried using the WideStudio libraries with
> Ruby? They seem to be neat and clean on the unix
..
> Please give some input on it.
So tried to give some input. I spend about 30 min - okay it's
Sunday, so it was a little bit easier to find the time. But
after posting my oppinion you started with this stupid "trolling"
arguments ?
Maybe it is because:
> hope people to contribute code. I
> will create X widgets myself for commercial purposes,
> and submit them.
and you only wanted to place a marketing message ?
Sorry for this but then you should have written your first message
with other words and not asking for "input on it".
David Ross
things on my own and submit. This is one of the
reasons I like the BSD license, I can submit only the
changes I want. Which when I have a piece of code that
is a bad hack that I do not want to submit, I don't
have to. --David Ross
-----------------------------------------
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David Ross
trollish input.
WideStudio was designed to work on the T-Engine.
links to commercial references? Look for the T-Engine
WideStudio references, it is used in commercial
development, not a whole lot of software. I know what
you were wanting (commercial software that works on
more desktops) well this is the real world, embedded
systems have OSes too, as well as special tools.
--David Ross
--- Lothar Scholz <mailin...@scriptolutions.com>
wrote:
> Hello David,
>
> DR> You know. you are the biggest troll I have ever
> seen
> DR> on the mailing list. Really, stop. I'm not
> kidding. It
> DR> has all you need. Its free as well, no strings
> DR> attached. I don't know what the hell your
> problem is,
> DR> but stop.
>
> You can see me as confused as you are.
> In your opening post you wrote:
>
> > Has anyone tried using the WideStudio libraries
> with
> > Ruby? They seem to be neat and clean on the unix
> ...
> > Please give some input on it.
>
> So tried to give some input. I spend about 30 min -
> okay it's
> Sunday, so it was a little bit easier to find the
> time. But
> after posting my oppinion you started with this
> stupid "trolling"
> arguments ?
>
> Maybe it is because:
>
> > hope people to contribute code. I
> > will create X widgets myself for commercial
> purposes,
> > and submit them.
>
> and you only wanted to place a marketing message ?
> Sorry for this but then you should have written your
> first message
> with other words and not asking for "input on it".
>
>
> --
> Best regards, emailto:
> scholz at scriptolutions dot com
> Lothar Scholz
> http://www.ruby-ide.com
> CTO Scriptolutions Ruby, PHP,
> Python IDE 's
>
>
>
>
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Rando Christensen
> lothar_troll was complaining, not me.
This was my point. Lothar has no obligation to fix bugs in this software
just because he wants to complain about them. A lot of open source
zealots love to pull this card, saying "stop complaining or fix it
yourself and send the author a patch", and it's pretty annoying.
Hell, I'd go so far as to say that complaining about someone else's
software without doing anything about it is one of the fundamental
god-given rights of any programmer. :)
--
Rando Christensen
<ey...@illuzionz.org>
Lothar Scholz
DR> Maybe I should have specified any input except
DR> trollish input.
DR> WideStudio was designed to work on the T-Engine.
Okay i looked at the t-engine.org website and read
http://www.t-engine.org/maker/T-EngineFAQ.txt
But this does not answer any questings about the WxStudio widget set
or the project.
Why did the WxStudio project die when there are so many companies
behind the T-Engine. I mean the T-Engine Forum looks like a "Who is
Who in the IT Industry". This is one of the most important questions
if you want to revive any project ! And this is not a trollish
question.
David Ross
toolkit and making it better on the embedded
platforms. Take a look at the differences between far
back release and this release. Ex. the scrollbars look
exactly like Xt on the old version, the new ones are
redesigned. Also, the scrollbars have this neat
feature I like, when you click, it goes all the way
down to the bottom of the screen.*which is good for
embedded devices, maybe even useful on desktop* I am
not 100% sure why, but code was changed and added. Big
improvements were made on it.
Its obviously a good toolkit to use for portability,
good UTF8 support, and ease of use(dispite the little
tiny things).
The license is a big issue, LGPL and GPL make it
extremely difficult to use in proprietary
applications. MIT or free equivalent is better. That
way you do not have to say in documentation that you
are using it(unless you want to). I dislike being
forced to do things, I will however tell that I use
Widestudio because it doesn't hold a knife to my neck
if I do not.
The fact that it is for embedded systems made me most
interested. Other toolkits are based just on the
desktop and are very unstable on embedded systems,
WideStudio nor its toolkit has given me any trouble.
--David Ross
--David Ross
--- Lothar Scholz <mailin...@scriptolutions.com>
wrote:
> Hello David,
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
H. Simpson
Maybe you should put a disclaimer stating that you are selling a
competing product at the top of messages criticizing free software in
the same category as your product. I'm not accusing you of bias or
anything, I just believe it's better to let people know about any
conflicts of interest so they don't get the wrong impression when they
find out later. They might misunderstand your good intentions to keep
us informed and decide not to buy from you...
Lothar Scholz wrote:
> [SNIP]
> And there is no theming to change this, looking at the
> code shows me that there will be no theming for a very long time
> because the drawing code is deeply buried in the source files.
>
Under the "Options" menu, there's a "Look and Feel" submenu that brings
up: standard1, standard2, modern1, modern2, classic1, classic2
> [SNIP]
> So i think it is good that this is a dead project. Don't waste your
> time to try to work with this toolkit.
Why do you think it is a dead project? Saying it is dead, doesn't make
it so.
The latest release is 3.80-3 which was released July 25, 2004. Here's
the last dozen entries from the release history.
# 25/07/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.80-3)
# 13/07/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.80-2)
# 01/07/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.80-1)
# 03/06/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-10)
# 02/06/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-9)
# 18/05/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-8)
# 21/03/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-7)
# 29/02/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-6)
# 21/02/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-5)
# 20/02/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-4)
# 22/01/2004 Released WideStudio(v3.70-3)
# 13/12/2002 Released WideStudio(v3.20-1)
Here are my impressions about Wise Studio 3.80.
There are many widgets and many options for each widget. You can move
and resize widgets using the mouse and watch their properties update in
real-time while doing so. Not too shabby for a free IDE that supports
c/c++, perl, and ruby.
The main complaint I have is the size of executables when linking
statically. A hello world window application statically linked was
2.7MB while the dynamically linked was only around 100KB (but requires
widestudio runtime DLLs). This was using the included GCC/MinGW32 c++
compiler.
I haven't tried yet but maybe using the free Optimizing c++ compiler
from Microsoft will produce smaller executables (VC++ Toolkit 2003 v1.01).
There's an option to store GUI components in files for loading/use at
runtime (as opposed to keeping them inside executables) but I haven't
explored that yet.
I'd love to see something like this for Fox Toolkit.
Gavin Sinclair
different thing from a GUI framework.
Still, a link to his product in a .sig is not going to do anyone any harm.
Nor will some better judgement from those who hand out troll awards so
freely.
Gavin
James Britt
>
> This was my point. Lothar has no obligation to fix bugs in this software
> just because he wants to complain about them. A lot of open source
> zealots love to pull this card, saying "stop complaining or fix it
> yourself and send the author a patch", and it's pretty annoying.
While I sort of tend to CTBW (code talks, bullshit walks), I agree.
I've worked in more than one place where management had an interesting
way to delegate responsibility. If you saw a problem, or thought of a
way to maybe improve things, and actually spoke up, you were "rewarded"
by being put in charge of making the change, or researching the details,
or some other task that amounted to more work but no more money.
You can imagine how effective that turned out to be.
James
Sander Jansen
widget comparison page at the FOX Community wiki page. Feel free to add or
fix any entry's.
http://fox-toolkit.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Widget_Comparison
Sander
--
"Nervous hands grip tight the knife
In the darkness, till the cake is cut"
- Peter Gabriel
David Ross
though, What about the widgets that each has that FOX
doesnt? There are more Widgets than just those.
:P(*hehe) --David
Sander Jansen
But its a lot of work, and most people are probably only interested in the
most basic widgets. If you think something is missing, feel free to add
it.... :)
Note that I think I was fairly generous in putting some of these WideStudio
widgets next to the FOX widgets ( FXIconList <->WSCverbList )....
Sander
j...@freeze.org
> Okay i downloaded the 100 MB Win Installer and played a bit with
> wsbuilder. I must say that this toolkit can win the second price in
> the most ugly toolkit competition (the first is for the all time
> winner FLTK).
Wow. I am suprised to hear that. I always thought of FLTK as
a fast and lean toolkit. Can you explain more.
Jim
Lothar Scholz
jfo> * Lothar Scholz <mailin...@scriptolutions.com> [2004-08-01 21:28:12 +0900]:
>> Okay i downloaded the 100 MB Win Installer and played a bit with
>> wsbuilder. I must say that this toolkit can win the second price in
>> the most ugly toolkit competition (the first is for the all time
>> winner FLTK).
jfo> Wow. I am suprised to hear that. I always thought of FLTK as
jfo> a fast and lean toolkit. Can you explain more.
"Fast and lean toolkit" and "nice and beautiful" are different things.
Right ? FLTK is the first but not the second. Thats what i said.
FLTK 2.0 has some theming support (don't know how much and which
quality) but FLTK 2.0 is as far away as GNU HURD.
Bill Atkins
make any changes at all to a (L)GPL application without having to
submit it back to the project owner. The only stipulation the GPL
makes is that if you release your project to the public, there has to
be a way for someone to get the code.
Maybe you'd understand it a little better if you didn't spend so much
time calling people trolls because they have an opinion contrary to
yours.
Bill
David Ross <dros...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<2004080118161...@web21527.mail.yahoo.com>...
David Ross
> I think you've got a poor understanding of the
> (L)GPL, buddy. You can
> make any changes at all to a (L)GPL application
> without having to
> submit it back to the project owner. The only
> stipulation the GPL
> makes is that if you release your project to the
> public, there has to
> be a way for someone to get the code.
>
Umm, no. Also, read the other email I just sent to the
other thread about the reverse engineering. I like
having at least some protection from software
crackers. Please understand that some people protect
thier code. Its not a bastardous way, just a
protective one.
actually the (L)GPL makes you submit changes to the
libraries. As stated in the other GUI Thread. Please
read more.
I choose WideStudio so I wouldn't have to even touch
LGPL and so I could throw in all my anti-disassembly
code. I was pretty sure I made this clear on IRC
before, you just missed the conversation about it.
Thank you for your constructive input.
--David Ross
Rando Christensen
> actually the (L)GPL makes you submit changes to the
> libraries. As stated in the other GUI Thread. Please
> read more.
No. (L)GPL requires that you provide any modified source to whoever you
distribute the binaries to, not to the original author. If you're not
redistributing it (for example, if you're using it internally in your
company), this is not required.
--
Rando Christensen
<ey...@illuzionz.org>
David Ross
:) --David Ross
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Austin Ziegler
> David Ross wrote:
> > actually the (L)GPL makes you submit changes to the
> > libraries. As stated in the other GUI Thread. Please
> > read more.
> No. (L)GPL requires that you provide any modified source to whoever you
> distribute the binaries to, not to the original author. If you're not
> redistributing it (for example, if you're using it internally in your
> company), this is not required.
Mmm. You're both wrong, in that Rando's statement is incomplete. The
LGPL also requires that one provide a relinkable target for statically
linked binaries. That is, one must deliver the .lib files as well as
the .exe so that the person who then wants to further modify the
LGPLed library may then relink their modified version of the library
with yours.
-austin
--
Austin Ziegler * halos...@gmail.com
* Alternate: aus...@halostatue.ca
David Ross
Paul Brannan
> Mmm. You're both wrong, in that Rando's statement is incomplete. The
> LGPL also requires that one provide a relinkable target for statically
> linked binaries. That is, one must deliver the .lib files as well as
> the .exe so that the person who then wants to further modify the
> LGPLed library may then relink their modified version of the library
> with yours.
From what I understand, the purpose of that requirement isn't there so
that you can relink modified versions of the library, but rather so that
you can relink with a new version of the library when it is released.
I think this is perfectly reasonable; if a commercial application is
statically linked with an LGPL library that is found to have a serious
security hole, it is a good thing that I can download the new version of
the library from the author and relink.
(not that I've ever done this, but it's nice to know that I can).
Paul
Bill Atkins
Bill
David Ross <dros...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<2004080600434...@web21524.mail.yahoo.com>...
Reinder Verlinde
Rando Christensen <ey...@illuzionz.org> wrote:
> David Ross wrote:
>
> > Hmm.. does anyone have a MacOSX computer they can try
> > out WideStudio on? I am curious to see if it is
> > portable to the mac.
>
> Seems like it works pretty well. As a warning, it runs under apple's
> X11.
"it works pretty well", combined with "it runs under apple's X11" really
means that it is not a Mac application at all, and Mac users will in all
likelihood not find it a suitable solution.
Reinder
Rando Christensen
>
> "it works pretty well", combined with "it runs under apple's X11" really
> means that it is not a Mac application at all, and Mac users will in all
> likelihood not find it a suitable solution.
>
> Reinder
You're probably right; but then again, there aren't ANY toolkits that do
any better than that for cross-platform with OSX. wxwidgets technically
works on OSX, but it's kind of a pain. I got it to compile once, but
then I couldn't get python's wxPython to work with it and gave up. (I
was trying to get the bittorrent wxPython stuff working.)
Any others that exist (Including the local ruby favorite fox) only work
under X11 anyway.
(I believe QT is actually an exception to this, and they now provide a
fully native OSX Framework. Are there ruby bindings for QT?)
--
Rando Christensen
<ey...@illuzionz.org>
Lothar Scholz
RC> Reinder Verlinde wrote:
>>
>> "it works pretty well", combined with "it runs under apple's X11" really
>> means that it is not a Mac application at all, and Mac users will in all
>> likelihood not find it a suitable solution.
>>
>> Reinder
RC> You're probably right; but then again, there aren't ANY toolkits that do
RC> any better than that for cross-platform with OSX. wxwidgets technically
RC> works on OSX, but it's kind of a pain. I got it to compile once, but
RC> then I couldn't get python's wxPython to work with it and gave up. (I
RC> was trying to get the bittorrent wxPython stuff working.)
RC> Any others that exist (Including the local ruby favorite fox) only work
RC> under X11 anyway.
RC> (I believe QT is actually an exception to this, and they now provide a
RC> fully native OSX Framework. Are there ruby bindings for QT?)
The problem is different, it's not only an API question.
You simply can't generate a cross-platform GUI intensive application.
Point. Thats it. Thats what you must accept. It is possible with
Windows <-> Linux just because the Linux toolkits look much like the
windows Styleguide and where born more or less as with windows in
mind.
But it wasn't possible to port it to BeOS and it's not possible to port
it to Mac. I can only give you the recommonendation to download the
Mac Human Application Interface Guidelines.
Read it carefully and you see that you need to make design
changes for Apple and Windows. MS has accepted this and thats why MSOffice
and MSExplorer don't share the same codebase (at least for a very very
significant part of code lines).
Even QT does not much more then provide Aqua looking look. But even with QT
it's not possible to write a "write once, compile everywhere"
application. You need a specail Apple GUI abstraction layer that gives
you things like Proxy Icons, different modal window logic, menubars
without main windows etc.
Rando Christensen
> The problem is different, it's not only an API question.
>
> You simply can't generate a cross-platform GUI intensive application.
> Point. Thats it. Thats what you must accept. It is possible with
> Windows <-> Linux just because the Linux toolkits look much like the
> windows Styleguide and where born more or less as with windows in
> mind.
I'm quite familiar with apple's HIG and the differences between it and
the way applications look and feel in Linux and Windows. However, I
think you're a bit off in calling it impossible. It would require a
toolkit that made you know and account for the quirks of different
operating systems, but it's far from impossible.
However, speaking on a more practical level, A lot of people would just
be happy with being able to write code that looks decent and doesn't
require too much work to set up on any individual target platform.
It's possible. Hell, hop on a mac and download the neat Gimp package
that exists. Yes, it's GTK, and yes, it even requires X11 to be
installed. However, it comes in an OSX .app bundle, comes pre-packaged
with it's own copy of gtk+ in there with it's own theme, and even knows
how to launch X11 on it's own when it launches. It's nowhere close to
fully native, but it's good enough not to scare people away.
It'd be a bit of work to write a toolkit that could create something
like that, either through using native widgets or whatever, but it is
possible, and it's something I wish we'd see come up.
--
Rando Christensen
<ey...@illuzionz.org>
David Ross
> "it works pretty well", combined with "it runs under
> apple's X11" really
> means that it is not a Mac application at all, and
> Mac users will in all
> likelihood not find it a suitable solution.
>
> Reinder
>
>
Yes, I was told by ThreeeDayMonk. He said it was as
fast as an application using Cocoa. I might just have
to get access and add in the corect code to make it
use cocoa. I like it better than X11. :) Should be
fairly easy doing it blind because I have many books
on cocoa. Also apple has great amounts of free
documentation. --David Ross
David Ross
> I'm quite familiar with apple's HIG and the
> differences between it and
> the way applications look and feel in Linux and
> Windows. However, I
> think you're a bit off in calling it impossible. It
> would require a
> toolkit that made you know and account for the
> quirks of different
> operating systems, but it's far from impossible.
>
It is not impossible. It just takes a good
knowledgable programmer. Thats all. Other people don't
know what they are talking about. Period. :)
> However, speaking on a more practical level, A lot
> of people would just
> be happy with being able to write code that looks
> decent and doesn't
> require too much work to set up on any individual
> target platform.
>
> It's possible. Hell, hop on a mac and download the
> neat Gimp package
> that exists. Yes, it's GTK, and yes, it even
> requires X11 to be
> installed. However, it comes in an OSX .app bundle,
> comes pre-packaged
> with it's own copy of gtk+ in there with it's own
> theme, and even knows
> how to launch X11 on it's own when it launches. It's
> nowhere close to
> fully native, but it's good enough not to scare
> people away.
>
Never tried Gimp on Mac yet. I'm hooked on photoshop
;)
> It'd be a bit of work to write a toolkit that could
> create something
> like that, either through using native widgets or
> whatever, but it is
> possible, and it's something I wish we'd see come
> up.
You could always help port WideStudio code. Just
because its MIT licensed and doesnt have strings
attached. 8)
low-level programming is something I find easy. I can
even program well in Xlib without doing the crazy
number others perform. (*pulling thier hair out,
yelling at big code, etc)
>
> --
> Rando Christensen
> <ey...@illuzionz.org>
>
>
--David Ross
(drossruby)(at)(yahoo.com)
David Ross
> they now provide a
> fully native OSX Framework. Are there ruby bindings
> for QT?)
http://raa.ruby-lang.org/project/qtruby/
This is an updated qtruby binding. It is very good. It
has the signal and slots system handled. Unfortunately
Qt is GPL'ed. So, I won't be using it unless there is
a OpenSource app I am hacking on.
--David Ross
>
> --
> Rando Christensen
> <ey...@illuzionz.org>
Lothar Scholz
RC> Lothar Scholz wrote:
>> The problem is different, it's not only an API question.
>>
>> You simply can't generate a cross-platform GUI intensive application.
>> Point. Thats it. Thats what you must accept. It is possible with
>> Windows <-> Linux just because the Linux toolkits look much like the
>> windows Styleguide and where born more or less as with windows in
>> mind.
RC> I'm quite familiar with apple's HIG and the differences between it and
RC> the way applications look and feel in Linux and Windows. However, I
RC> think you're a bit off in calling it impossible. It would require a
RC> toolkit that made you know and account for the quirks of different
RC> operating systems, but it's far from impossible.
Right it would be possible to support this at least on a specialiased
application level (in a huge program the GUI Toolkit is only a very
minor part of the program) but very hard to do so in general. And
its not a write once schema which is what most programmers expect today.
RC> However, speaking on a more practical level, A lot of people would just
RC> be happy with being able to write code that looks decent and doesn't
RC> require too much work to set up on any individual target platform.
RC> It's possible. Hell, hop on a mac and download the neat Gimp package
RC> that exists. Yes, it's GTK, and yes, it even requires X11 to be
RC> installed. However, it comes in an OSX .app bundle, comes pre-packaged
RC> with it's own copy of gtk+ in there with it's own theme, and even knows
RC> how to launch X11 on it's own when it launches. It's nowhere close to
RC> fully native, but it's good enough not to scare people away.
But this is not a task for the toolkit. This is up to you as an
individuell developer. Everybody can create an .app bundle that works
good and installs easily even with FOX.
You just gave me a task for the next week. I will look at the setup
code of GIMP.
RC> It'd be a bit of work to write a toolkit that could create something
RC> like that, either through using native widgets or whatever, but it is
RC> possible, and it's something I wish we'd see come up.
Yes. I just spend 50% of my time last week to examine how much work
needs to be done to port my Arachno products to Aqua/Carbon. I already
have an abstraction layer above FOX but i found it very hard
(about 6 month full time) to do this and it would require a lot of
refactoring of existing code. It may not be so difficult if a person
starts a project and designs the application from scratch to fit the goal
of runnable on Unix/Windows/Apple.
And as i said before, at the moment i don't think that a general
purpose toolkit is the way to go, at least for larger applications.
Lothar Scholz
>> (I believe QT is actually an exception to this, and
>> they now provide a
>> fully native OSX Framework. Are there ruby bindings
>> for QT?)
DR> Yes, Thank you to Lypanov.
DR> http://raa.ruby-lang.org/project/qtruby/
DR> This is an updated qtruby binding. It is very good. It
DR> has the signal and slots system handled. Unfortunately
DR> Qt is GPL'ed. So, I won't be using it unless there is
DR> a OpenSource app I am hacking on.
You know that Qt is also available with a commerical license.
And i must say i don't understand your attitude, you are fighting
against other commercial projects but always tell us that you write
your own commerical programs/widgets. Do you really think that this
fits together.
Jan Sabbe
> Hello Rando,
>
> RC> Reinder Verlinde wrote:
>
>>>"it works pretty well", combined with "it runs under apple's X11" really
>>>means that it is not a Mac application at all, and Mac users will in all
>>>likelihood not find it a suitable solution.
>>>
>>>Reinder
>
>
> RC> You're probably right; but then again, there aren't ANY toolkits that do
> RC> any better than that for cross-platform with OSX. wxwidgets technically
> RC> works on OSX, but it's kind of a pain. I got it to compile once, but
> RC> then I couldn't get python's wxPython to work with it and gave up. (I
> RC> was trying to get the bittorrent wxPython stuff working.)
>
> RC> Any others that exist (Including the local ruby favorite fox) only work
> RC> under X11 anyway.
>
> RC> (I believe QT is actually an exception to this, and they now provide a
> RC> fully native OSX Framework. Are there ruby bindings for QT?)
>
> The problem is different, it's not only an API question.
>
> You simply can't generate a cross-platform GUI intensive application.
> Point. Thats it. Thats what you must accept. It is possible with
> Windows <-> Linux just because the Linux toolkits look much like the
> windows Styleguide and where born more or less as with windows in
> mind.
>
FireFox and Thunderbird are pretty damn good. There are differences
ofcourse to make it more mac-like. Shortcuts using symbols, based on
command instead of control or alt. Changed menu structure (preferences
and quit under the application menu, instead of file and edit). The
usage of sheets instead of modal dialogs. Things could be better, but
none would require a massive rewrite, or needs the use of another
toolkit. So, yes, you need different versions for mac/linux/win to make
a decent gui app, but the differences aren't that major that you need to
rewrite your entire application.
Allot of Java apps also integrate nicely. (for example Jedit). You need
changes, you need to follow the mac hig to give a nice experience, but
you don't need to rewrite it in either cocoa/carbon. It is easier to get
things right if you use cocoa instead of something else, but it is not
absolutely necessary for a nicely integrated mac application.
David Ross
> You know that Qt is also available with a commerical
> license.
Yes Lothar, I am *very* aware. Have been for years.
The licenses cost 1500USD each platform, discounts if
you buy more than one at a time. I am very good at Qt
programming. Unfortunately, I have also found that I
can do just as much by contributing a bit of my time
to reengineer free toolkits like wide studio.
>
> And i must say i don't understand your attitude, you
> are fighting
> against other commercial projects but always tell us
> that you write
> your own commerical programs/widgets. Do you really
> think that this
> fits together.
yes, the reason for it is that is becuase there are
infinite possibilities of "me" :)
--David
Lothar Scholz
JS> FireFox and Thunderbird are pretty damn good. There are differences
JS> ofcourse to make it more mac-like. Shortcuts using symbols, based on
JS> command instead of control or alt. Changed menu structure (preferences
JS> and quit under the application menu, instead of file and edit). The
JS> usage of sheets instead of modal dialogs. Things could be better, but
JS> none would require a massive rewrite, or needs the use of another
JS> toolkit. So, yes, you need different versions for mac/linux/win to make
JS> a decent gui app, but the differences aren't that major that you need to
JS> rewrite your entire application.
Yes they are pretty good. But this is exactly what i said. For example
you can find in the "mozilla/widget/src/mac" folder 85 files with 961
KB source code which is most of the mac GUI abstraction layer. I know that some
other programs (Komodo for example) uses the Mozilla framework, but it is
still developed around the needs of the Browser application. If they need
new features they will change the toolkit and they will do it at the
same time for each toolkit. This is different from the idea
of porting from one system to another with the help of a general
purpose toolkit and without #ifdef clauses.
JS> Allot of Java apps also integrate nicely. (for example Jedit). You need
JS> changes, you need to follow the mac hig to give a nice experience, but
JS> you don't need to rewrite it in either cocoa/carbon. It is easier to get
JS> things right if you use cocoa instead of something else, but it is not
JS> absolutely necessary for a nicely integrated mac application.
Sure you can do quite well. But thats not the point i'm talking about.
I talking about apps here that will have a chance to get accept at
This is not easy because recommended software must confirm to the interface
guideslines (at least a few years ago they where very strict at this
point) - and of course you must pay a lot of money.
Florian Gross
>> And i must say i don't understand your attitude, you are fighting
>> against other commercial projects but always tell us that you write
>> your own commerical programs/widgets. Do you really think that
>> this fits together.
> yes, the reason for it is that is becuase there are infinite
> possibilities of "me" :)
Which means that you're changing your opinion as fitting? You're
preaching water and drinking wine?
Regards,
Florian Gross
Florian Gross
> "Truth is important, knock down the trolls on thier ass Only good
> people deserve respect"
>
> You know. you are the biggest troll I have ever seen on the mailing
> list. Really, stop. I'm not kidding. It has all you need. Its free as
> well, no strings attached. I don't know what the hell your problem
> is, but stop. Below is my sample app I constructed in 15 minutes
> after learning the interface. it is simple to create than others. It
> is very flexible as well. text looks great widgets work great, and it
> looks the same way on windows. I tried it, works fine. THanks now
> stfu lothar_troll. Send patches Send patches. Send patches send
> patches or shut up. You are trolling. Stop not really.
You've done personal flames like this before and in the
public. It damages the reputation of the Ruby community and really
doesn't contribute anything. I'd prefer you staying neutral, polite and
objective (which doesn't mean that you're not allowed to have your own
opinion).
If you think that I'm trying to troll you and want to attack me because
of it, then please do so privately.
If you want to discuss politely, then do so here.
Regards,
Florian Gross
Mark Hubbart
I think I speak for more users than myself when I say that FireFox and
Thunderbird are *not* Mac apps. Yes, they do pretty good, but they need
to go a a bit further before they will be able to compete with the
other mac web browsers, IMHO. My main gripe is that, even after the
major changes they made to make it more mac-like, they still behave
strangely. There a only a couple places left where there are major
deviations from the usual mac app, but there are many items that behave
almost, but not quite, like what you would expect. I think that this
is especially a problem for more advanced users, since they are more
likely to notice the differences.
> Allot of Java apps also integrate nicely. (for example Jedit). You
> need changes, you need to follow the mac hig to give a nice
> experience, but you don't need to rewrite it in either cocoa/carbon.
> It is easier to get things right if you use cocoa instead of something
> else, but it is not absolutely necessary for a nicely integrated mac
> application.
Apple has been working to take java apps more and more towards being
first class applications on macosx. With the ObjC <=> Java bridge, you
can use all the cocoa classes in java apps, making porting a java
program to cocoa rather simple. Also, they did a fairly good job of
making the java Aqua theme fit in well.
cheers,
Mark
Nicholas Van Weerdenburg
ports) box, so I'm fine with GUI variations. I'm afraid I hardly notice
them anymore.
I use the following on both Windows and OS X:
Freeride Ruby Editor (X11)
Mozilla Thunderbird
Mozilla Firefox
JEdit (Java)
IntelliJ IDEA (Java)
And I have no complaints. On the other hand, OpenOffice via X11 on OS X
is dissapointing, so I can see mainstream apps needing the tighter Mac
compliance.
Nick
David Ross
I don't know exactly know what I wrote means now :/ I
thought it made sense. No, what you replied is not
what it was supposed to mean.
Yes. Well, it is not my fault people have to post lies
about other software and assume something is too
diificult when it is not in either case. Lies is what
makes people not want to use other software. Also, it
seems to me that l-troll uses it as a guerilla
business tatics to deal out low blows. He has no valid
statement on other IDEs since he is developing his
own, of course his will seem better to him(besides the
money).
> If you think that I'm trying to troll you and want
> to attack me because
> of it, then please do so privately.
>
No, I do not. I would be glad to explain in email or
irc about what it is about.
> If you want to discuss politely, then do so here.
>
> Regards,
> Florian Gross
>
>
--David Ross
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Martin DeMello
business tatics to deal out low blows. He has no valid
> statement on other IDEs since he is developing his
> own, of course his will seem better to him(besides the
> money).
Just to inject a measure of sanity into this, isn't Lothar developing
his IDE in Eiffel? I don't see how that would bias his opinion of a ruby
toolkit.
martin
Rando Christensen
> I've sortof come to view my OS X box as a Mac/Java/X11/Linux(Fink
> ports) box, so I'm fine with GUI variations. I'm afraid I hardly notice
> them anymore.
>
A lot of mac users feel this way, myself included. Most of them,
however, are those who came to OSX from linux or bsd. Many hardcore mac
junkies are afraid of X11.
Though it is worth noting that I do tend to prefer a native cocoa
application over an X11 port when I have the choice.
--
Rando Christensen
<ey...@illuzionz.org>
Rando Christensen
>
> I think I speak for more users than myself when I say that FireFox and
> Thunderbird are *not* Mac apps. Yes, they do pretty good, but they need
> to go a a bit further before they will be able to compete with the
> other mac web browsers, IMHO. My main gripe is that, even after the
> major changes they made to make it more mac-like, they still behave
> strangely. There a only a couple places left where there are major
> deviations from the usual mac app, but there are many items that behave
> almost, but not quite, like what you would expect. I think that this is
> especially a problem for more advanced users, since they are more likely
> to notice the differences.
>
Honestly, if you ask me, the biggest problem with firefox/thunderbird is
speed. The interfaces for firefox and thunderbird are pretty sluggish,
and scrolling under firefox has a really strange feel to it, like it's
really really lagged.
However, the original point was valid. Mozilla's XUL interface has come
a long way, and while it still needs a ton of optimization and a few
more behavioral tweaks on OSX, it really has worked out quite well
otherwise as a cross-platform GUI toolkit. It has a native feel on linux
and windows and a very close to native feel on OSX.
Unfortunately, I don't think it's quite able to be used as a standalone
gui toolkit (Though, it could very well be. After all, thunderbird does
use it), but I really haven't done much reading on the subject.
--
Rando Christensen
<ey...@illuzionz.org>
Lothar Scholz
DR> Yes. Well, it is not my fault people have to post lies
DR> about other software and assume something is too
DR> diificult when it is not in either case. Lies is what
DR> makes people not want to use other software. Also, it
DR> seems to me that l-troll uses it as a guerilla
DR> business tatics to deal out low blows. He has no valid
DR> statement on other IDEs since he is developing his
DR> own, of course his will seem better to him(besides the
DR> money).
Bullshit. You should learn to read and write more carefull.
I just responded twice. And you both time started your fucking troll
thread.
One was your request for comment about the WideStudio GUI toolkit.
I told you my impression that i don't like the GUI toolkit for a
number of reasons i mentionend
(you never replied about the problems, just "send patches").
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=200408032245.44309.sander%40knology.net&prev=/groups%3Fdq%3D%26num%3D25%26hl%3Dde%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dcomp.lang.ruby%26start%3D75
I didn't write any sentence about the IDE, just one about the GUI
Builder which i don't like and don't find very comfortable to work.
The other posting was a reply to your message about KDevelop in the
Editor Thread:
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=200408032245.44309.sander%40knology.net&prev=/groups%3Fdq%3D%26num%3D25%26hl%3Dde%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dcomp.lang.ruby%26start%3D75
Where you recommended KDevelop as a good ruby editor and mentioning
that it supports Code completition and other things that are working
only with C++. I said that KDevelop is a very bad recommendation for
someone asking for a ruby editor. This was the point. You simple
didn't understand the posting.
Yes i will still post critical statements about software and
programming here.
Newsgroups are for discussion: We can stop discussing things and
just come together smoke some dope and tell each other how wonderful
the world is.
David Ross
> One was your request for comment about the
> WideStudio GUI toolkit.
I was requesting useful comments, not troll comments.
> I told you my impression that i don't like the GUI
> toolkit for a
> number of reasons i mentionend
> (you never replied about the problems, just "send
> patches").
The reason for that is you just troll troll troll all
over issues. Its not even constructive criticism. You
comments are 1) untrue - you don't even try them, 2)
you dont care about them - only your precious arachno
matters 3) business warfare - hit them hard with
mudslinging and untrue trolling.
"Send Patches" := you are a uberl33t programmer who
likes saying everything else sucks, you fix it then
mr. 31337.
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=200408032245.44309.sander%40knology.net&prev=/groups%3Fdq%3D%26num%3D25%26hl%3Dde%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dcomp.lang.ruby%26start%3D75
> I didn't write any sentence about the IDE, just one
> about the GUI
> Builder which i don't like and don't find very
> comfortable to work.
Right.. that email must not exist. Saying that it is
good a project is dead is one of the *best* trollish
comments ever.
There are others if you really want me to post all of
them.
>
> The other posting was a reply to your message about
> KDevelop in the
> Editor Thread:
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=de&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=200408032245.44309.sander%40knology.net&prev=/groups%3Fdq%3D%26num%3D25%26hl%3Dde%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dcomp.lang.ruby%26start%3D75
> Where you recommended KDevelop as a good ruby editor
> and mentioning
> that it supports Code completition and other things
> that are working
> only with C++. I said that KDevelop is a very bad
> recommendation for
> someone asking for a ruby editor. This was the
> point. You simple
> didn't understand the posting.
Yes, a point to manipulate people in to thinking that
the IDE does not perform well for ruby code. The fact
that you didn't read or ask how to set it up properly
so it would made me mad. Do you always make idiot
comments about software without using them?
>
> Yes i will still post critical statements about
> software and
> programming here.
>
Don't post lies then, Thanks.
> Newsgroups are for discussion: We can stop
> discussing things and
> just come together smoke some dope and tell each
> other how wonderful
> the world is.
Instead of saying everything sucks, maybe you can help
I'm prove existing code. Isn't that one of the points
of Open Source Software? :) Yes it is. Thanks for
wasting 3 minutes of my time. --David
Mike Hall
> ..., there aren't ANY toolkits that do
> any better than that for cross-platform with OSX.
Tcl/Tk Aqua for OS X?
Rando Christensen
> Tcl/Tk Aqua for OS X?
Okay, that one is native, but from what I've used of it (Given, this was
only for one project and I don't remember which. It was a while ago), it
looks horrible, and feels even less like a cocoa application than Gtk+
under X.
--
Rando Christensen
<ey...@illuzionz.org>
Nicholas Van Weerdenburg
I for one appreciate your insight and well-balanced comments and would
feel poorer if you didn't keep them up.
Nick
Rando Christensen
> Well put.
>
> I for one appreciate your insight and well-balanced comments and would
> feel poorer if you didn't keep them up.
>
> Nick
Yeah, I haven't really seen Lothar post anything that I would consider
trolling, And I agree with him on quite a few points.
--
Rando Christensen
<ey...@illuzionz.org>
Ruby Script
> Hello jim,
>
> jfo> * Lothar Scholz <mailin...@scriptolutions.com> [2004-08-01 21:28:12 +0900]:
>
>
>>>Okay i downloaded the 100 MB Win Installer and played a bit with
>>>wsbuilder. I must say that this toolkit can win the second price in
>>>the most ugly toolkit competition (the first is for the all time
>>>winner FLTK).
>
>
> jfo> Wow. I am suprised to hear that. I always thought of FLTK as
> jfo> a fast and lean toolkit. Can you explain more.
>
> "Fast and lean toolkit" and "nice and beautiful" are different things.
> Right ? FLTK is the first but not the second. Thats what i said.
>
> FLTK 2.0 has some theming support (don't know how much and which
> quality) but FLTK 2.0 is as far away as GNU HURD.
>
>
I just tried out FLTK 1.1.5rc2 and it does indeed support "themes". But
they call it "schemes" so maybe that's the source of confusion.
A picture is worth a thousand words:
http://seriss.com/people/erco/fltk/chooser_patch/choice-mod.gif
Other screenshots of FLTK apps which make me think it isn't ugly:
http://www.easysw.com/htmldoc/shots.php
http://www-timc.imag.fr/Yves.Usson/personnel/FLE/calcsci1.png
http://www.osc.edu/~jbryan/VolSuite/images/screenshot.png
Robert McGovern
> it isn't ugly:
> http://www.easysw.com/htmldoc/shots.php
> http://www.timc.imag.fr/Yves.Usson/personnel/FLE/calcsci1.png
>http://www.osc.edu/~jbryan/VolSuite/images/screenshot.png
A case of "too each their own", I know I certianly wouldn't choose it if I was needing a GUI toolkit. But thats the nice thing there are many toolkits to choose from.
Rob
Karl von Laudermann
>
> Other screenshots of FLTK apps which make me think it isn't ugly:
>
> http://www.easysw.com/htmldoc/shots.php
Wow... That's ugly! You might not want to include this example. :-)
It's obviously a poor imitation of the Mac OS X look, which itself is
IMHO quite beautiful. This example, OTOH, is an abomination.
Carl Youngblood
David, one of the many differences between you and Lothar is that when
Lothar disagrees with someone, he can discuss it civilly without
resorting to ad hominem attacks or four-letter words. And he is not
presumptuous enough to assume that, just because someone disagrees
with him, they are either insane or hopelessly stupid. He also does
not assume that, if someone says something erroneous about his
software, they did it with malicious "trollish" intent. In other
words, he is a nice guy. Please try to learn something from him.
David Ross
Wow, you are right. I can learn how to troll and tell
disgusting lies about software. The best skill I would
ever be able to have. --David Ross
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Hal Fulton
>
> Wow, you are right. I can learn how to troll and tell
> disgusting lies about software. The best skill I would
> ever be able to have. --David Ross
>
It will probably do no good to say this, but I have been
on this list since 1999, and fully 50% of the negativity
I have seen has been in the last 60-90 days.
One person is responsible, and it isn't Lothar.
My plea to you, David, would be to start out simply: Go for
at least 24 hours without insulting anyone, using inflammatory
language, reversing the blame, or using the t-word.
Once you achieve that, we can try for a full week.
Hal
Sean O'Dell
>
> Wow, you are right. I can learn how to troll and tell
> disgusting lies about software. The best skill I would
> ever be able to have. --David Ross
I think the problem is you're reading too much into Lothar's words.
I suspect English isn't his native language from the way he writes (possibly
German), and quite often minor differences in what a native English speaker
and a non-native speaker would write creates huge misunderstandings in terms
of content as well as tone.
For example, I know many of my German friends whose English isn't 100% will
respond quite often with the English phrase "that's not interesting to me."
I suspect it has an equivalent colloquial in German that is perfectly
harmless, but to my English ears, it's wholly distasteful.
But also, in general, participating online can lead to misunderstandings even
between native speakers, and it helps to simply take everything with a grain
of salt, knowing you might not be gauging their intention as accurately as
you think. People says things meaning no harm, but without the benefit of
in-person voice inflection, you can never know *precisely* how they meant it.
Try and not assume venom in Lothar's words, and allow yourself to hear honest
criticism of your work. From everything I've read, he's seems completely
even-handed and is being more than fair with you.
But if you can't comes to terms with Lothar, take it to private email with him
at least, would you? Leave this ML for discussions about Ruby.
Sean O'Dell
David Ross
widely used it "crap", I will not tolerate such
remarks. --David Ross
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David Ross
> English isn't 100% will
> respond quite often with the English phrase "that's
> not interesting to me."
> I suspect it has an equivalent colloquial in German
> that is perfectly
> harmless, but to my English ears, it's wholly
> distasteful.
>
>
>
I am aware of language descepencies, but I don't think
saying, "Furthermore, I am glad this toolkit is dead"
is one of them.
--David Ross
Robert McGovern
Robert McGovern - Software Engineer
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>>> dros...@yahoo.com 08/10/04 21:38 PM >>>
> I'm sorry, I don't like being told software that is
> widely used it "crap", I will not tolerate such
> remarks. --David Ross
*grin* I know people that say that about Windows all the time (though I am not one of them) and I would use crap to describe Novell Groupwise because for my needs it fails in every regard. Its can be easier to say that listing all the reasons why it lacks.
Hmm, maybe we could use the N word so Godwins[1] law can take effect :)
Rob
Sean O'Dell
> > For example, I know many of my German friends whose
> > English isn't 100% will
> > respond quite often with the English phrase "that's
> > not interesting to me."
> > I suspect it has an equivalent colloquial in German
> > that is perfectly
> > harmless, but to my English ears, it's wholly
> > distasteful.
>
> saying, "Furthermore, I am glad this toolkit is dead"
> is one of them.
That phrase is hardly something to get worked up over. You're being
overly-sensitive. Either way, take it to private email with him. The Ruby
ML has a purpose, and this isn't it.
Sean O'Dell
Lothar Scholz
DR> I am aware of language descepencies, but I don't think
DR> saying, "Furthermore, I am glad this toolkit is dead"
I have to full right to say:
"I am glad this toolkit is dead".
^^^
Read the first word multiple times until you understand the meaning of
"I". Maybe a simple word is easier to understand for you then the 500
words in my argument list that i had written before taking this conclusion.
You can see this message as the last reply to any message you
post to this newsgroup under any of your sender names "David Ross", "H. Simpson"
or "Ruby Script".
**PLONK**
Nicholas Van Weerdenburg
trolling about trolls trolling?
Surreal.
David Ross wrote:
>><snip>
Nicholas Van Weerdenburg
my perspective was getting warped. I look forward for the return to the
famously friendly newsgroup.
Luis Felipe Strano Moraes
I have been learning more about OO and design patterns now,
and I work at a place where most (actually, I thinks it's all)
of our software development is web related, and it's mostly
PHP and some minor projects are in python.
We are considering starting a project here using Ruby, and
perhaps RubyOnRails (btw David, thanks alot for instiki),
but I really can't see how I could apply OO design to a web
project.
I was wondering if any of you know of a good example I could
take a look at, or if you could share some tips, or links
perhaps.
Thanks,
--lf
James Britt
..
> but I really can't see how I could apply OO design to a web
> project.
Could you perhaps say why you think that?
Would you expect to apply OO design if it was the same application,
except all input and output was at the command line?
James
Carl Youngblood
the MVC (Model View Controller) pattern.
Luis Felipe Strano Moraes
> Could you perhaps say why you think that?
>
> Would you expect to apply OO design if it was the same application,
> except all input and output was at the command line?
I haven't developed anything meaningful object-oriented application
yet, so perhaps my problem is that I can't really see where to
apply it.
I can think of places to apply OO design on the applications (even if
they were CLI), but they were only going to be some small stuff.
One of the applications we develop is a kind of FAQ system, where
people can send questions, and anyone who is registered on the
system can answer them. I can think of an object-oriented way of
re-writing this system, but I don't know where to put alot of
stuff (specially the web display stuff).
Dunno if I'm making myself clear (english is not my first language,
and even tough it may seem that I am partially good at it, still
there are always problems when trying to express yourself with it) .
--lf
Kirk Haines
It's really no different with a web project than with any other project.
The web portion is nothing more than the interface between your software and
the user. So if you would use some sort of an object model for a GUI app,
you will do so for a web based app. If you would build some custom classes
for handling your data or performing specific business tasks for a GUI app,
you'll do the same for a web app. About the only difference is going to
show up when dealing with the actual user interface, and that difference is
going to boil down to how well whatever code library or templating system
you are using to handle your interface bits. Do they let you use OO design
paradigms? Can you define reusable components?
Rails definitely takes a person down this direction.
I'm trying to think of frameworks for Ruby that actually take the approach
of saying that your components are themselves objects. The only two for
sure that I can think of right now (and appologies if I am forgetting any)
are my Iowa framework (http://enigo.com/projects/iowa) and Borges
(http://borges.rubyforge.org). Maybe SWS? I forget the URL for it, though.
David can certainly give you examples of how he uses OO design ideas with
web apps using Rails, so I'll just lay out, generally, how I approach it
with Iowa.
I use an object-relational modeling package for all of my database
interactions. In my case, I use Kansas. There are so many advantages to an
ORM tool in terms of reducing lines of code and making applications faster
and simpler to write and to read later that using a tool like this for your
model data is usually a huge win.
If I have common sorts of back end data manipulation or business logic tasks
that are going to be performed at multiple different points in the
application, I abstract those capabilities out to their own classes.
Then for the user interface I break it down to find the areas where there
are going to be commonly repeated elements and I put each of those into its
own class (component). So, for example, a standard page header and footer
each get their own component. A standard navigation bar would get its own
component. If there is some reporting tool or table that will be used in
multiple places, I can write it as a seperate component. Whatever. Once I
have all of the multiuse pieces abstracted into their own classes, I then
code the components that describe how the app ties together and that use the
header and footer and report tool and whatever other multiuse components I
have created.
Back to front, it is all objects and everywhere that I can I refactor and
reuse.
Kirk Haines
cisje...@gmail.com
On Sunday, August 1, 2004 2:48:24 AM UTC+5:30, David Ross wrote:
> Has anyone tried using the WideStudio libraries with
> Ruby? They seem to be neat and clean on the unix
> operating systems. Anyone tried it with Windows or
> MacOSX? I need some input please. It is a MIT licensed
> and completely free toolkit, compared to LGPL. It has
> a IDE which is very easy to design with. It has
> extensions for many languages.
>
> English page: http://www.widestudio.org/EE/index.html
> Japanese page: http://www.widestudio.org
>
> Please give some input on it.
>
> Supports C/C++, Perl, Python, Ruby programing
> language.