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"Peña, Botp"

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Jun 2, 2004, 9:23:23 PM6/2/04
to
Hi ALL:

Pls forgive me in advance.

I posted a reply today but did not see it.

I'll like to see if new post will get posted (diff reply).

I'm on the mailing list.

I just noticed this problem just today.

kind regards -botp


daz

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 10:48:42 PM6/2/04
to

You're right,
www.ruby-talk.org/102230

... and not alone


Can anyone see this on their News reader?
I see it in ML mail only - No In-Reply-To: or References:, but valid mail.
www.ruby-talk.org/102074

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 11:40:36 +0900
Posted: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 12:40:27 +1000
From: "Mehr, Assaph (Assaph)" <ass...@avaya.com>
Reply-To: ruby...@ruby-lang.org
Subject: Re: A newbie question about path
To: ruby...@ruby-lang.org (ruby-talk ML)
Message-Id: <338366A6D2E2CA4C9DA...@au3010avexu1.global.avaya.com>
X-ML-Name: ruby-talk
X-Mail-Count: 102074


daz

David A. Black

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 10:56:11 PM6/2/04
to
Hi --

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, daz wrote:

>
> Peña, Botp wrote:
> > Hi ALL:
> >
> > Pls forgive me in advance.
> >
> > I posted a reply today but did not see it.
> >
> > I'll like to see if new post will get posted (diff reply).
> >
> > I'm on the mailing list.
> >
> > I just noticed this problem just today.
> >
> > kind regards -botp
> >
> >
>
> You're right,
> www.ruby-talk.org/102230
>

> .... and not alone


>
>
> Can anyone see this on their News reader?
> I see it in ML mail only - No In-Reply-To: or References:, but valid mail.
> www.ruby-talk.org/102074

The fix definitely hasn't fixed everything; Austin Ziegler's posts
still aren't going through either :-( It's night-time in Germany but
Dennis is aware of it and hopefully will have some time to work on in
tomorrow.


David

--
David A. Black
dbl...@wobblini.net

David A. Black

unread,
Jun 2, 2004, 11:39:32 PM6/2/04
to
Hi --

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, daz wrote:

>
> Peña, Botp wrote:
> > Hi ALL:
> >
> > Pls forgive me in advance.
> >
> > I posted a reply today but did not see it.
> >
> > I'll like to see if new post will get posted (diff reply).
> >
> > I'm on the mailing list.
> >
> > I just noticed this problem just today.
> >
> > kind regards -botp
> >
> >
>
> You're right,
> www.ruby-talk.org/102230
>

> .... and not alone


>
>
> Can anyone see this on their News reader?
> I see it in ML mail only - No In-Reply-To: or References:, but valid mail.
> www.ruby-talk.org/102074

The remaining problem seems to be subject lines with "Re:" in them,
when there are no In-Reply-To and References: headers. This
apparently makes the NNTP server flag the message as a followup and
then be unhappy because there's no reference.

(See my subject-mangling of Botp's reply message, which resulted in
the message reaching comp.lang.ruby.)

Dennis has several messages from me, leading up to this conclusion,
for when he gets up tomorrow :-) So hopefully a fix will be
forthcoming soon.

gabriele renzi

unread,
Jun 3, 2004, 5:40:16 AM6/3/04
to
il Thu, 3 Jun 2004 03:48:42 +0100, "daz" <do...@d10.karoo.co.uk> ha
scritto::


>You're right,
>www.ruby-talk.org/102230
>
>... and not alone
>
>
>Can anyone see this on their News reader?

seing this and previous msg from Botp on my newsserver.

But did not see the msg from Botp about String#% till dblack hacked
it.

Dennis Oelkers

unread,
Jun 3, 2004, 10:14:42 AM6/3/04
to
Hello David, ruby-talk, c.l.r.,

David A. Black wrote:
> The remaining problem seems to be subject lines with "Re:" in them,
> when there are no In-Reply-To and References: headers. This
> apparently makes the NNTP server flag the message as a followup and
> then be unhappy because there's no reference.

My further investigations proved that this is really the problem. The
symptoms are the same as with the first problem (I get a 441 - "Followup
without a reference" - when posting the mail to the newsgroup), but this
time the solution is non-trivial. The first case ("In-Reply-To" flag in
header but not "References" flag) was solved by adding the missing flag
by duplicating the message-id of the "In-Reply-To" flag. In this case
both flags are missing. The MUA which was used by Austin Ziegler adds
"Thread-Topic" / "Thread-Index" flags to the header which are supposed
to solve the threading, but this is not applicable to Usenet.

This leads to the conclusion that we have three possible solutions:
- Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
threading would be broken
- drop the message on the floor at the gateway => ruby-talk / c.l.r.
are inconsistent
- my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)

Btw: I won't be able to re-feed the messages which were not posted to
c.l.r. because my suspicion that they get rejected because of their age
became true. Sorry for that, but DAB will probably put them on a http-
accessible location.

Kind regards,
Dennis Oelkers
--
Dennis Oelkers | Webadministration | Zentraleinrichtung Rechenzentrum
TU-Berlin | EN-Gebaeude, K042 | Telefon: 030-314-25029

Key Fingerprint:
A6 7A B6 90 09 56 E8 32 02 40 6B 27 80 17 00 89 61 E7 CA 6F

Robert Klemme

unread,
Jun 3, 2004, 10:32:53 AM6/3/04
to

"Dennis Oelkers" <oel...@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:c9nbnn$p3v$1...@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE...

> Hello David, ruby-talk, c.l.r.,
>
> David A. Black wrote:
> > The remaining problem seems to be subject lines with "Re:" in them,
> > when there are no In-Reply-To and References: headers. This
> > apparently makes the NNTP server flag the message as a followup and
> > then be unhappy because there's no reference.
>
> My further investigations proved that this is really the problem. The
> symptoms are the same as with the first problem (I get a 441 - "Followup
> without a reference" - when posting the mail to the newsgroup), but this
> time the solution is non-trivial. The first case ("In-Reply-To" flag in
> header but not "References" flag) was solved by adding the missing flag
> by duplicating the message-id of the "In-Reply-To" flag. In this case
> both flags are missing. The MUA which was used by Austin Ziegler adds
> "Thread-Topic" / "Thread-Index" flags to the header which are supposed
> to solve the threading, but this is not applicable to Usenet.

This is bad news...

> This leads to the conclusion that we have three possible solutions:
> - Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
> message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
> threading would be broken

That's my favorite. It would be even better if the GW could figure the
correct message id and insert that. But with these headers it seems quite
impractical.

> - drop the message on the floor at the gateway => ruby-talk / c.l.r.
> are inconsistent

Not really a solution, is it?

> - my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
> want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
> so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
> on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
> too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)

I guess this is impractical since it sounds like this would rule out some
mail clients. People will not be happy about that.

> Btw: I won't be able to re-feed the messages which were not posted to
> c.l.r. because my suspicion that they get rejected because of their age
> became true. Sorry for that, but DAB will probably put them on a http-
> accessible location.

DAB as in http://www.dab.de/ :-)))

Regards

robert

Dennis Oelkers

unread,
Jun 3, 2004, 10:49:10 AM6/3/04
to
Hello Robert,

Robert Klemme wrote:
>>- Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
>> message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
>> threading would be broken
>
>
> That's my favorite. It would be even better if the GW could figure the
> correct message id and insert that. But with these headers it seems quite
> impractical.

This is not possible because in cases like this there is no real clue to
which thread/posting this is a reply to (without utilising human
intelligence or complex algorithms of course).

>>- my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
>> want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
>> so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
>> on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
>> too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)
>
>
> I guess this is impractical since it sounds like this would rule out some
> mail clients. People will not be happy about that.

The point is that the policy of ruby-talk is quite sleazy whilc
they're very strict for Usenet postings. People can send almost any
garbage to the mailing list if they're subscribed to it and allowed
to post. In my opinion it is the right behaviour to drop any mail
which is not well-formed as soon as possible.

This leads to the conclusion that we'll either have some sort of
inconsistency between those two medias, or we would have to synchronize
the policies up to a certain point where those inconsistencies converge
against 0.

Robert Klemme

unread,
Jun 3, 2004, 11:14:30 AM6/3/04
to

"Dennis Oelkers" <oel...@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:c9ndoc$qa5$1...@mamenchi.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE...

> Hello Robert,
>
> Robert Klemme wrote:
> >>- Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
> >> message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
> >> threading would be broken
> >
> >
> > That's my favorite. It would be even better if the GW could figure
the
> > correct message id and insert that. But with these headers it seems
quite
> > impractical.
>
> This is not possible because in cases like this there is no real clue to
> which thread/posting this is a reply to (without utilising human
> intelligence or complex algorithms of course).

That's what I figured.

> >>- my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
> >> want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
> >> so the only solution is that we establish identical posting
policies
> >> on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're
posting
> >> too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)
> >
> >
> > I guess this is impractical since it sounds like this would rule out
some
> > mail clients. People will not be happy about that.
>
> The point is that the policy of ruby-talk is quite sleazy whilc
> they're very strict for Usenet postings. People can send almost any
> garbage to the mailing list if they're subscribed to it and allowed
> to post. In my opinion it is the right behaviour to drop any mail
> which is not well-formed as soon as possible.

Well, but look at it from a user's perspective who is ignorant of the news
group: he has a mail client and obviously that mail client sends valid
mails (otherwise a whole lot other instances will reject his email). So
he's likely reluctant to change his MUA just because of ruby-talk. I know
people are peculiar when it comes to their favourite mail reader, news
reader, editor or whatever. Just look at the tons of
my-operating-system-is-better-than-yours flame wars...

> This leads to the conclusion that we'll either have some sort of
> inconsistency between those two medias, or we would have to synchronize
> the policies up to a certain point where those inconsistencies converge
> against 0.

I could live with thread inconsistencies. At least we have all messages
of a thread available - even if not properly sorted. As said, that's my
favorite solution.

Kind regards

robert

gabriele renzi

unread,
Jun 3, 2004, 11:34:41 AM6/3/04
to
il Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:14:30 +0200, "Robert Klemme" <bob....@gmx.net>
ha scritto::

>
>
>I could live with thread inconsistencies. At least we have all messages
>of a thread available - even if not properly sorted. As said, that's my
>favorite solution.
>

fwiw: +1

Carlos

unread,
Jun 3, 2004, 11:26:46 AM6/3/04
to
[Dennis Oelkers <oel...@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>, 2004-06-03 16.18 CEST]

> Hello David, ruby-talk, c.l.r.,
>
> David A. Black wrote:
> >The remaining problem seems to be subject lines with "Re:" in them,
> >when there are no In-Reply-To and References: headers. This
> >apparently makes the NNTP server flag the message as a followup and
> >then be unhappy because there's no reference.
>
> My further investigations proved that this is really the problem. The
> symptoms are the same as with the first problem (I get a 441 - "Followup
> without a reference" - when posting the mail to the newsgroup), but this
> time the solution is non-trivial. The first case ("In-Reply-To" flag in
> header but not "References" flag) was solved by adding the missing flag
> by duplicating the message-id of the "In-Reply-To" flag. In this case
> both flags are missing. The MUA which was used by Austin Ziegler adds
> "Thread-Topic" / "Thread-Index" flags to the header which are supposed
> to solve the threading, but this is not applicable to Usenet.
>
> This leads to the conclusion that we have three possible solutions:

I suggest another: if the message subject begins with "Re: " or "re: ", but
doesn't have a "References: " header, change the "Re: " to "RE: ".

If it has a "References: " header, but the subject doesn't begin with "Re: "
or "re: ", add "Re: " at the beginning.

I think that should satisfy RFC 850.

David A. Black

unread,
Jun 3, 2004, 2:17:42 PM6/3/04
to
Hi --

I (reluctantly) would opt for the first one, if it's the likeliest way
to get all messages through. Maybe for messages with "Re:" but no
References: you could add X-Missing-Reference header or
something... so that some day if someone figures out a way to fix it
we can easily find them :-)

Thomas Fini Hansen

unread,
Jun 3, 2004, 3:48:06 PM6/3/04
to
On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 11:18:38PM +0900, Dennis Oelkers wrote:
> Hello David, ruby-talk, c.l.r.,
>
> David A. Black wrote:
> >The remaining problem seems to be subject lines with "Re:" in them,
> >when there are no In-Reply-To and References: headers. This
> >apparently makes the NNTP server flag the message as a followup and
> >then be unhappy because there's no reference.
>
> My further investigations proved that this is really the problem. The
> symptoms are the same as with the first problem (I get a 441 - "Followup
> without a reference" - when posting the mail to the newsgroup), but this
> time the solution is non-trivial. The first case ("In-Reply-To" flag in
> header but not "References" flag) was solved by adding the missing flag
> by duplicating the message-id of the "In-Reply-To" flag. In this case
> both flags are missing. The MUA which was used by Austin Ziegler adds
> "Thread-Topic" / "Thread-Index" flags to the header which are supposed
> to solve the threading, but this is not applicable to Usenet.

Arg, *bleeping* Microsoft *bleeping* us all again, by ignoring an
established standard, and instead inventing their own...

If they at least had the courtesy to add in the normal headers too,
it's not like it's rocket science, but no..

If someone could figure out what the *bleep* Thread-Index is, it might
be possible, with a lot of state on the gateway, to make an educated
guess at where it was supposed to be in the thread and fake the
appropiate headers.

An alternative would be storing the last message-id for each 'topic',
and just pretend that the MS mails was replies to that. It's cheaper
and and should usually gets the message in the right region.

I'm afraid that the suggestion to remove the 'Re' might actually screw
the only defence we have against the problem, subject matching. I
don't know about other MUAs, but Mutt tries to put the messages
somewhere 'right' in the threads, by using subject matching and
ordering by date. I donno if the munging might pose problematic
there.

> This leads to the conclusion that we have three possible solutions:
> - Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
> message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
> threading would be broken

I'm not sure how mutt would react to this. Or any other using the same
technique (I believe there is other clients doing the same thing).

> - drop the message on the floor at the gateway => ruby-talk / c.l.r.
> are inconsistent

Not an option, I'd say.

> - my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
> want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
> so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
> on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
> too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)

Oh, a world without Outlook.. As much as I'd love to see that, it's
not an option either. Unless someone could come up with a gateway that
fixes posts from Outlook. Secondly, there's webmails out there that
has similar problems.

--
Thomas
be...@system-tnt.dk


Sean O'Dell

unread,
Jun 3, 2004, 4:01:37 PM6/3/04
to
On Thursday 03 June 2004 07:18, Dennis Oelkers wrote:
> David A. Black wrote:
> > The remaining problem seems to be subject lines with "Re:" in them,
> > when there are no In-Reply-To and References: headers. This
> > apparently makes the NNTP server flag the message as a followup and
> > then be unhappy because there's no reference.

Is it possible to mirror the References header item as another header item,
and when References is missing and there is a "Re:" in the subject,
re-construct it from the other header item? It could be Outlook is
deliberately stripping off References and In-Reply-To, but won't strip off
another custom header, such as "X-Gateway-References".

Sean O'Dell


daz

unread,
Jun 3, 2004, 4:08:08 PM6/3/04
to

From: "David A. Black" <dbl...@wobblini.net>

Couldn't it be solved simply by changing params.rb ...

module Params

# name of the news server
NEWS_SERVER = "news.zrz.tu-berlin.de"

# [...]

end

.. such that it refers to a Usenet server rather than an NNTP host
which links with a Usenet news server ?

Can Dennis plug straight into the German Research Network (DFN.DE)
or is that what's imposing the rigid restrictions ?

I'm repeating, but if mirroring works for me through my news service
and not for him then all of these different header permutations are
permissible within Usenet.

I notice that DFN runs a service http://news.individual.net/server.html
which necessarily has safeguards. I was going to see if it was
possible for me to mirror through them but rule one states that the
Sender cannot be anyone except the user. Fair enough.


daz

Thomas Fini Hansen

unread,
Jun 3, 2004, 4:35:24 PM6/3/04
to

When a MUA is replying, it doesn't take the original mail and strip
out stuff, it constructs a new mail.

It is possible to use unique sender addresses from the mailing list,
and then use a DB to look up what message a mail was reply to, and add
the right headers, but it's rather a lot of work for one bad MUA.

*thinks a bit*

Actually, a general solution might prove popular, it's not like
ruby-talk is the only place that has the thread fallout problem.

As a side note, and I'm baseing this on a very small sample, I think
Thunderbird drops the In-Reply-To and References headers if you delete
all quoted material. My theory is that it does that to combat the
people-that-just-replies-to-an-old-thread-to-start-a-new-one-problem,
which is just about as irritating.

I haven't confirmed this though, so if anyone has more data...

--
Thomas
be...@system-tnt.dk


daz

unread,
Jun 3, 2004, 9:04:57 PM6/3/04
to

I wrote:
>
> NEWS_SERVER = "news.zrz.tu-berlin.de"

>
> .. such that it refers to a Usenet server rather than an NNTP host
> which links with a Usenet news server ?
>

Yuurk, that's technical BS !!

What I mean is: is there access to any alternative host which
isn't as restrictive as (closer to Usenet than) the one in use ?

I'm wondering now what the "industry standard" software is
for news hosting and/or whether each service has OEM versions.
At the same time, I haven't the slightest interest :-?


daz

nobu....@softhome.net

unread,
Jun 3, 2004, 9:58:57 PM6/3/04
to
Hi,

At Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:18:38 +0900,
Dennis Oelkers wrote in [ruby-talk:102281]:


> This leads to the conclusion that we have three possible solutions:
> - Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
> message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
> threading would be broken
> - drop the message on the floor at the gateway => ruby-talk / c.l.r.
> are inconsistent
> - my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
> want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
> so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
> on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
> too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)

Though I'm not a ML maintainer, one possible solution is:

(1) revive subject tag (e.g. [ruby-talk:102281]).

(2) add following hook (originally posted in [ruby-list:27934])
to fml to construct Refereces: from the subject if necessary.

$HEADER_ADD_HOOK = q{
if (!$Envelope{'in-reply-to:'} && !$Envelope{'references:'} &&
$Envelope{'subject:'} =~ /^re:\s*\[ruby-\w+:(d+)\]/i) {
if (open(REF, "$DIR/$1")) {
my $mid, $ref, $inref;
while (<REF>) {
if (/^message-id:\s*(.+)$/i) {
$mid = $1;
} elsif (/^references:\s*(.+)$/i) {
$ref = $1;
$inref = 1;
next;
} elsif ($inref && /^\s/) {
$ref .= $_;
next;
} elsif (/^$/) {
last;
}
$inref = 0;
}
close(REF);
if ($mid) {
($ref = "References: $ref $mid") =~ s/\s+/ /g;
$body .= "In-Reply-To: $mid\n$ref\n";
}
}
}
};

--
Nobu Nakada


Thomas Fini Hansen

unread,
Jun 4, 2004, 5:02:24 AM6/4/04
to
On Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 10:58:57AM +0900, nobu....@softhome.net wrote:
> Hi,
>
> At Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:18:38 +0900,
> Dennis Oelkers wrote in [ruby-talk:102281]:
> > This leads to the conclusion that we have three possible solutions:
> > - Add an "In-Reply-To"/"References" flag to the header by using the
> > message-id of THAT mail => the message would appear on c.l.r., but
> > threading would be broken
> > - drop the message on the floor at the gateway => ruby-talk / c.l.r.
> > are inconsistent
> > - my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
> > want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
> > so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
> > on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
> > too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)
>
> Though I'm not a ML maintainer, one possible solution is:
>
> (1) revive subject tag (e.g. [ruby-talk:102281]).
>
> (2) add following hook (originally posted in [ruby-list:27934])
> to fml to construct Refereces: from the subject if necessary.

[snip perl]

Brilliant. Have the mailing list fix the messages. As far as I can
see, that should fix the problem, without bad sideeffects..

Now, you wouldn't happen to have a similar patch to Mailman. I could
use that. ;)

--
Thomas
be...@system-tnt.dk


Robert Klemme

unread,
Jun 4, 2004, 5:17:34 AM6/4/04
to

"Thomas Fini Hansen" <be...@system-tnt.dk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:20040603194...@saber.xen.dk...

> Arg, *bleeping* Microsoft *bleeping* us all again, by ignoring an
> established standard, and instead inventing their own...
>
> If they at least had the courtesy to add in the normal headers too,
> it's not like it's rocket science, but no..
>
> If someone could figure out what the *bleep* Thread-Index is, it might
> be possible, with a lot of state on the gateway, to make an educated
> guess at where it was supposed to be in the thread and fake the
> appropiate headers.
>
> An alternative would be storing the last message-id for each 'topic',
> and just pretend that the MS mails was replies to that. It's cheaper
> and and should usually gets the message in the right region.

> > - my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they


> > want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
> > so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
> > on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're
posting
> > too. (ML-Maintainers? Any Comments on this one?)
>
> Oh, a world without Outlook.. As much as I'd love to see that, it's
> not an option either. Unless someone could come up with a gateway that
> fixes posts from Outlook. Secondly, there's webmails out there that
> has similar problems.

You're bashing the wrong pig here. "Outlook" itself does no news (at
least older versions, I'm not fully up to date). Instead it delegated
news handling to "Outlook Express" - a whole differnt piece of software
(which I am using btw). "Outlook Express" does a nice job inserting
"References" headers, which you can verify with this posting.

MS does a lot of evil, but they are not always the ones to blame.

Kind regards

robert

daz

unread,
Jun 5, 2004, 2:03:57 AM6/5/04
to

From: "Dennis Oelkers" <oel...@zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ruby
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 3:49 PM


>
> >>- my solution: as mua's are more or less allowed to do whatever they
> >> want my fear is that we get more and more of such borderline cases
> >> so the only solution is that we establish identical posting policies
> >> on both the mailing-list host and the gateway/nntp host we're posting
> >> too.
> >
> >
>

> The point is that the policy of ruby-talk is quite sleazy whilc
> they're very strict for Usenet postings. People can send almost any
> garbage to the mailing list if they're subscribed to it and allowed
> to post. In my opinion it is the right behaviour to drop any mail
> which is not well-formed as soon as possible.
>
> This leads to the conclusion that we'll either have some sort of
> inconsistency between those two medias, or we would have to synchronize
> the policies up to a certain point where those inconsistencies converge
> against 0.
>

Hi Dennis,

You present a strong defence but I bring some grim prosecution evidence :-|

A news posting[1] by Sean Russell to c.l.ruby via Google which has an
'In-Reply-To:' but no 'References:' header (i.e. "not well-formed")
which made the trip from Sean's den around Usenet through the gateway
and out to the ruby-talk ML[2] like a Ferrari round Nurburgring.

The accusation is that your server at news.zrz.tu-berlin.de is applying
a filter to outgoing news messages which is of no help to the gateway.


> I get a 441 - "Followup without a reference"

from http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc977/rfc977.html
---------------------------------------------------------------
RFC 977 - Network News Transfer Protocol
---------------------------------------------------------------

2.4.2. Status Responses

4xx - Command was correct, but couldn't be performed for
some reason.
[...]
x4x - Posting
[...]
x8x - Nonstandard (private implementation) extensions

[...]

4.7.2. Responses

441 posting failed
---------------------------------------------------------------

"Followup without a reference" looks like a private implementation
message and error code 48x is provided for use with such extensions.
IMHO, the missing postings don't fail - they're denied.

Is there any way the g/way can be made exempt from these non-RFC checks ?
(e.g. ignore errors_like_that if source == gateway)


Your endurance is much appreciated.


daz


[1] The headers (before mirroring to ML):
==================================================================================
Path: internal1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!
nntp.giganews.com!cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!news.glorb.com!
postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail
From: "SER" <s...@germane-software.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ruby
Subject: Re: CSV bug?
Date: 18 May 2004 06:51:12 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <c8d4cg$q...@odah37.prod.google.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: odah37.prod.google.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
X-Trace: posting.google.com 1084888273 29869 127.0.0.1 (18 May 2004 13:51:13 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: groups...@google.com
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:51:13 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <40A9A7EB...@keynauts.com>
User-Agent: G2/0.1
Xref: number1.nntp.dca.giganews.com comp.lang.ruby:99924
==================================================================================

[2] After mirroring to ML http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/ruby/ruby-talk/100614

Thomas Fini Hansen

unread,
Jun 5, 2004, 7:43:03 AM6/5/04
to
On Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 06:18:43PM +0900, Robert Klemme wrote:
> "Thomas Fini Hansen" <be...@system-tnt.dk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > Oh, a world without Outlook.. As much as I'd love to see that, it's
> > not an option either. Unless someone could come up with a gateway that
> > fixes posts from Outlook. Secondly, there's webmails out there that
> > has similar problems.
>
> You're bashing the wrong pig here.

Perhaps, but I'm not particularly convinced.

> "Outlook" itself does no news (at least older versions, I'm not
> fully up to date). Instead it delegated news handling to "Outlook
> Express" - a whole differnt piece of software (which I am using
> btw).

Sounds reasonble to me, I'm not entirely up on Outlook either.

> "Outlook Express" does a nice job inserting "References" headers,
> which you can verify with this posting.

Yes, that's OE as a newsreader, but all my ranting was in the context
of O(E) as a mail client. Actually I figure it does a decent job as a
newsreader, but that'a not how most people use it.

But I did a quick investigation, in a post by Austin Ziegler:
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0
And it has no In-Reply-To or References.. But the Tread headers. OK,
that's general MS evilness, there's no reason that because Outlook is
attached to an Exchange server, that it can't make proper mails when
sending to external addresses.

Then theres daz
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
And it looks good, but again, he's using it as a mailreader.

Digging through some private mail, I see some more of the Exchange
problem, and some Outlook/OE mail that do have the In-Reply-To, but no
References.

Secondly, I'm suspecting that O/OE is both using the same component to
create the mails:
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165

> MS does a lot of evil, but they are not always the ones to blame.

No, but if the problem *is* related to the References header, then the
fact that Outlook forgets it in regular email, is an issue.

--
Thomas
be...@system-tnt.dk


Austin Ziegler

unread,
Jun 5, 2004, 7:31:37 PM6/5/04
to
Saturday, June 5, 2004, 7:43:03 AM, Thomas Fini Hansen wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 06:18:43PM +0900, Robert Klemme wrote:

>> "Outlook" itself does no news (at least older versions, I'm not
>> fully up to date). Instead it delegated news handling to "Outlook
>> Express" - a whole differnt piece of software (which I am using
>> btw).
> Sounds reasonble to me, I'm not entirely up on Outlook either.

There are plugins for Usenet/NNTP handling for Outlook, but it is not
default.

TFH> But I did a quick investigation, in a post by Austin Ziegler:
TFH> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0
TFH> And it has no In-Reply-To or References.. But the Tread headers. OK,
TFH> that's general MS evilness, there's no reason that because Outlook is
TFH> attached to an Exchange server, that it can't make proper mails when
TFH> sending to external addresses.

The problem could be the Exchange server, as its the one that has to
construct the outgoing Internet message from the Outlook format
object.

The problem is that if it is the Exchange server, then it does NOT
have the appropriate information to construct the In-Reply-To header
(References is a News header ONLY).

-austin
--
Best regards,
Austin mailto:aus...@halostatue.ca

Thomas Fini Hansen

unread,
Jun 5, 2004, 8:52:59 PM6/5/04
to
On Sun, Jun 06, 2004 at 08:31:37AM +0900, Austin Ziegler wrote:
> Saturday, June 5, 2004, 7:43:03 AM, Thomas Fini Hansen wrote:
> > Sounds reasonble to me, I'm not entirely up on Outlook either.
> There are plugins for Usenet/NNTP handling for Outlook, but it is not
> default.

And I wont pass any judgement on that's compliance either, as I'm not
exposed to it.

> TFH> But I did a quick investigation, in a post by Austin Ziegler:
> TFH> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0
> TFH> And it has no In-Reply-To or References.. But the Tread headers. OK,
> TFH> that's general MS evilness, there's no reason that because Outlook is
> TFH> attached to an Exchange server, that it can't make proper mails when
> TFH> sending to external addresses.
>
> The problem could be the Exchange server, as its the one that has to
> construct the outgoing Internet message from the Outlook format
> object.
>
> The problem is that if it is the Exchange server, then it does NOT
> have the appropriate information to construct the In-Reply-To header

Yet, it's able to construct the Thread-* headers? It must know
*something*.

> (References is a News header ONLY).

Wrong.

RFC 2822 - Internet Message Format:

# 3.6.4. Identification fields
#
# Though optional, every message SHOULD have a "Message-ID:" field.
# Furthermore, reply messages SHOULD have "In-Reply-To:" and
# "References:" fields as appropriate, as described below.

--
Thomas
be...@system-tnt.dk


Robert Klemme

unread,
Jun 6, 2004, 7:15:33 AM6/6/04
to

"Thomas Fini Hansen" <be...@system-tnt.dk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:2004060511...@saber.xen.dk...

> On Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 06:18:43PM +0900, Robert Klemme wrote:
> > "Thomas Fini Hansen" <be...@system-tnt.dk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> > > Oh, a world without Outlook.. As much as I'd love to see that, it's
> > > not an option either. Unless someone could come up with a gateway that
> > > fixes posts from Outlook. Secondly, there's webmails out there that
> > > has similar problems.
> >
> > You're bashing the wrong pig here.
>
> Perhaps, but I'm not particularly convinced.
>
> > "Outlook" itself does no news (at least older versions, I'm not
> > fully up to date). Instead it delegated news handling to "Outlook
> > Express" - a whole differnt piece of software (which I am using
> > btw).
>
> Sounds reasonble to me, I'm not entirely up on Outlook either.
>
> > "Outlook Express" does a nice job inserting "References" headers,
> > which you can verify with this posting.
>
> Yes, that's OE as a newsreader, but all my ranting was in the context
> of O(E) as a mail client. Actually I figure it does a decent job as a
> newsreader, but that'a not how most people use it.

Ah, ok, I missed that one. Thought you were talking about news.

> But I did a quick investigation, in a post by Austin Ziegler:
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.6944.0
> And it has no In-Reply-To or References.. But the Tread headers. OK,
> that's general MS evilness, there's no reason that because Outlook is
> attached to an Exchange server, that it can't make proper mails when
> sending to external addresses.
>
> Then theres daz
> X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
> And it looks good, but again, he's using it as a mailreader.

Sounds like OE is the more mature product for the big wide world of internet
communication. AFAIK Outlook started out as an Exchange Server client, so,
yeah, I'd expect Outlook to be less compliant than OE.

> Digging through some private mail, I see some more of the Exchange
> problem, and some Outlook/OE mail that do have the In-Reply-To, but no
> References.
>
> Secondly, I'm suspecting that O/OE is both using the same component to
> create the mails:
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165

Depends on which part of the message is done by this component. I'd guess
it's rather mime formatting only but no headers.

> > MS does a lot of evil, but they are not always the ones to blame.
>
> No, but if the problem *is* related to the References header, then the
> fact that Outlook forgets it in regular email, is an issue.

Indeed.

Thanks for clearing that up!

robert

daz

unread,
Jun 6, 2004, 1:52:48 PM6/6/04
to

Thomas Fini Hansen wrote:

> Austin Ziegler wrote:
>
> > (References is a News header ONLY).
>
> Wrong.
>
> RFC 2822 - Internet Message Format:
>

RFC 2822 is a not a standard, yet.

From http://www.ietf.org/iesg/1rfc_index.txt (long)

"""
2822 Internet Message Format. P. Resnick, Ed.. April 2001. (Format:
TXT=110695 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC0822) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD)
"""


A References: header is accepted by:
RFC822: Standard for ARPA Internet Text Messages

and
RFC850: Standard for Interchange of USENET Messages

"... the rule is adopted that all USENET news articles
must be formatted as valid ARPANET mail messages,
according to the ARPANET standard RFC 822."

Our missing ML-> NG messages, after conversion from mail to news by rubygate,
are valid to RFC822/RFC850 standard regardless of the MUA used for posting.


daz

http://www.ruby-talk.org/102444

Thomas Fini Hansen

unread,
Jun 6, 2004, 3:14:58 PM6/6/04
to
On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 02:53:39AM +0900, daz wrote:
>
> Thomas Fini Hansen wrote:
> > Austin Ziegler wrote:
> >
> > > (References is a News header ONLY).
> >
> > Wrong.
> >
> > RFC 2822 - Internet Message Format:
> >
>
>
>
> RFC 2822 is a not a standard, yet.
>
> >From http://www.ietf.org/iesg/1rfc_index.txt (long)
>
> """
> 2822 Internet Message Format. P. Resnick, Ed.. April 2001. (Format:
> TXT=110695 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC0822) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD)
> """
>
>
> A References: header is accepted by:
> RFC822: Standard for ARPA Internet Text Messages

August 13, 1982


# 4.6.3. REFERENCES
#
# The contents of this field identify other correspondence
# which this message references. Note that if message identif-
# iers are used, they must use the msg-id specification format.

The header is mentioned in a >20 year old spec, does contradict the
claim that it's a news header only, doesn't it? Yes, neither RFC says
that it is required, but the same goes for In-Reply-To. Both treat
them pretty much equal, so what anyone has to say about References,
goes for In-Reply-To as well.

> and
> RFC850: Standard for Interchange of USENET Messages
>
> "... the rule is adopted that all USENET news articles
> must be formatted as valid ARPANET mail messages,
> according to the ARPANET standard RFC 822."
>
> Our missing ML-> NG messages, after conversion from mail to news by rubygate,
> are valid to RFC822/RFC850 standard regardless of the MUA used for posting.

That's reverse logic, it only claims that all news messages is valid
mails, not that all mail is valid news. And RFC850 in section 2.1.6
tells us that the References header is *required* when the Subject
header starts with 'Re: '. There's no such requirement for mail
messagees, or Outlook would be in *violation* of the specs, not just
being annoying.

But of course, all of this is just good practice, as no spec requires
either References nor In-Reply-To to be used.

--
Thomas
be...@system-tnt.dk


daz

unread,
Jun 6, 2004, 3:52:57 PM6/6/04
to

Thomas Fini Hansen wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 02:53:39AM +0900, daz wrote:
> >
> >
> > A References: header is accepted by:
> > RFC822: Standard for ARPA Internet Text Messages
>
> August 13, 1982
>
>
> The header is mentioned in a >20 year old spec, does contradict the
> claim that it's a news header only, doesn't it?

I think so.


> > and
> > RFC850: Standard for Interchange of USENET Messages
> >
> > "... the rule is adopted that all USENET news articles
> > must be formatted as valid ARPANET mail messages,
> > according to the ARPANET standard RFC 822."
> >
> > Our missing ML-> NG messages, after conversion from mail to news by rubygate,
> > are valid to RFC822/RFC850 standard regardless of the MUA used for posting.
>
> That's reverse logic, it only claims that all news messages is valid
> mails, not that all mail is valid news.

The claim that ruby-talk mail is converted by rubygate to RFC850 news
comes from me, supported by my (and others') empirical evidence.


daz

Thomas Fini Hansen

unread,
Jun 7, 2004, 3:44:45 AM6/7/04
to
On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 04:53:40AM +0900, daz wrote:
> > > and
> > > RFC850: Standard for Interchange of USENET Messages
> > >
> > > "... the rule is adopted that all USENET news articles
> > > must be formatted as valid ARPANET mail messages,
> > > according to the ARPANET standard RFC 822."
> > >
> > > Our missing ML-> NG messages, after conversion from mail to news by rubygate,
> > > are valid to RFC822/RFC850 standard regardless of the MUA used for posting.
> >
> > That's reverse logic, it only claims that all news messages is valid
> > mails, not that all mail is valid news.
>
> The claim that ruby-talk mail is converted by rubygate to RFC850 news
> comes from me, supported by my (and others') empirical evidence.


OK, now you lost me. This whole subthread started out at someone
claiming that mails forwarded by rubygate got rejected because of
missing References headers (because they're not following RFC850).

So it's pretty clear (to me at least), that in order for your claim to
be true, rubygate must insert References headers on mails with a
'Re: ' subject which are missing it. Whether it's actually doing that
now, sorta got lost in the noise.

--
Thomas
be...@system-tnt.dk


daz

unread,
Jun 8, 2004, 12:49:46 AM6/8/04
to

Thomas Fini Hansen wrote <before heavy snippage>:

>
> OK, now you lost me.

If this summary helps, please re-read the rest of your message
and see why it would add to the confusion if I tried to
unravel that knot :-)

-----

The reason why some ML->NG messages were/are being dropped is
because the server at news.zrz.tu-berlin.de ("news.zrz") is
rejecting them as being invalid.

As I understand it, David and Dennis were able to reduce the
number of rejections by adding to the headers from within the
g/way software ("rubygate").
David's messages (and some others) are now getting through.
(Dennis had been careful to point out that he hadn't been
expecting 100% success from the change.)

Botp then found that one of his ruby-talk emails didn't get
to c.l.ruby. I noticed another.

- - -

All the various email apps (Mail User Agents - MUAs) around
produce their own sets of "correct" headers.

The gateway (ML->NG direction) converts mail from ruby-talk
to news by filtering out non-news headers and tries to post to
comp.lang.ruby using NNTP via "news.zrz" (the news host).

ruby-talk ML <--> rubygate <--> "news.zrz" <--> Usenet (c.l.ruby)


My observation is that "news.zrz" also has an opinion on which
combinations of outbound headers are "correct" and that the
criteria for "correctness" are stricter than RFC850 for Usenet.
My news host, for example, will accept the exact same
message that "news.zrz" rejects. It appears on Usenet.

- - -

To fix the problems, Dennis has suggested that we could try to
find a formal header structure to smooth over the anomalies.

Indeed, it might be possible to adapt the output from the
many MUAs into a normalised form.

My question is: Is this the best way to proceed ?

The manipulation of headers would be to overcome the "news.zrz"
restrictions; not to make them acceptable to Usenet.
(Usenet would accept them from rubygate *without change*).

- - -

I wouldn't want the gateway to be moved again because the
service at TU-Berlin has appeared to be stable and fast.

At the same time, we can't ask TU-Berlin to change the
software on their news host.

IMHO, we shouldn't be complicating the gateway or ruby-talk
mailer software to satisfy the requirements of our current
service which will not accept all RFC850 news posts.

Proof, from earlier, is on Google, Usenet and ruby-talk archive -
not a wild claim.


--
daz


If things are less clear, there may be some details in
previous postings on this subject which need to be unlearnt.

David A. Black

unread,
Jun 8, 2004, 6:26:28 AM6/8/04
to
Hi --

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, daz wrote:

> To fix the problems, Dennis has suggested that we could try to
> find a formal header structure to smooth over the anomalies.
>
> Indeed, it might be possible to adapt the output from the
> many MUAs into a normalised form.
>
> My question is: Is this the best way to proceed ?

I think so, not because it is ideal or non-kludgy but because I want
to see all the messages make it through, and, in practical terms, I
think that's by far the highest-percentage way to make that happen.

daz

unread,
Jun 8, 2004, 2:51:29 PM6/8/04
to

By far the highest-percentage way to make that happen would be
to have a news host that doesn't locally filter outbound traffic :-)

It would be non-kludgy, require no changes to either g/w or
fml mailer software and allow 100% ML->NG mirroring -- like it
did before the end of January this year.

Do we know that it's not practical to achieve that, yet?

What software change/update was made on that server around Jan 28th ?

What protection is it trying to offer and to whom?
It can't be for security because day after day it's allowing the g/w
to "spoof with implicit permission" NG posts made up from ML members
emails. But if you try posting a reply without a References: header
... oh, no, sorry, we can't allow that, it might upset someone's
newsreader threading or something... and returns an NNTP error as if
it were an NNTP violation (which it isn't).

Could it have a bug which the authors might be grateful to know about?

Is there a possibility to register the g/w as a privileged user on it?

And other questions that we might ask before coming to a decision
about what would be the best way to proceed.


More cents,

daz

David A. Black

unread,
Jun 8, 2004, 4:01:41 PM6/8/04
to
Hi --

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, daz wrote:

>
> David A. Black wrote:
> > Hi --
> >
> > On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, daz wrote:
> >
> > > To fix the problems, Dennis has suggested that we could try to
> > > find a formal header structure to smooth over the anomalies.
> > >
> > > Indeed, it might be possible to adapt the output from the
> > > many MUAs into a normalised form.
> > >
> > > My question is: Is this the best way to proceed ?
> >
> > I think so, not because it is ideal or non-kludgy but because I want
> > to see all the messages make it through, and, in practical terms, I
> > think that's by far the highest-percentage way to make that happen.
> >
>
> By far the highest-percentage way to make that happen would be
> to have a news host that doesn't locally filter outbound traffic :-)
>
> It would be non-kludgy, require no changes to either g/w or
> fml mailer software and allow 100% ML->NG mirroring -- like it
> did before the end of January this year.
>
> Do we know that it's not practical to achieve that, yet?
>
> What software change/update was made on that server around Jan 28th ?
>
> What protection is it trying to offer and to whom?
> It can't be for security because day after day it's allowing the g/w
> to "spoof with implicit permission" NG posts made up from ML members
> emails. But if you try posting a reply without a References: header

> .... oh, no, sorry, we can't allow that, it might upset someone's


> newsreader threading or something... and returns an NNTP error as if
> it were an NNTP violation (which it isn't).
>
> Could it have a bug which the authors might be grateful to know about?
>
> Is there a possibility to register the g/w as a privileged user on it?
>
> And other questions that we might ask before coming to a decision
> about what would be the best way to proceed.

All of your ideas and questions are fine. What I'm saing is I'd like
to see something done as quickly as possible -- and, in fact,
something seems to have been done, because I believe Austin Ziegler's
posts are now getting through. If it's just a stopgap measure, so be
it; it's important to stop the gap, and to get as many messages
through as possible while addressing the longer-term or more difficult
questions.

Thomas Fini Hansen

unread,
Jun 9, 2004, 3:20:35 PM6/9/04
to
On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 03:53:44AM +0900, daz wrote:
> What protection is it trying to offer and to whom?
> It can't be for security because day after day it's allowing the g/w
> to "spoof with implicit permission" NG posts made up from ML members
> emails. But if you try posting a reply without a References: header
> .... oh, no, sorry, we can't allow that, it might upset someone's

> newsreader threading or something... and returns an NNTP error as if
> it were an NNTP violation (which it isn't).

Doesn't seem much different than a SMTP server returning an SMTP error
when SpamAssassin fires off.

Indeed it's not stricktly a NNTP error, but they're rejecting posts
that violate the USENET RFC, so why doen't we just make the messages
meet the RFC?



> Could it have a bug which the authors might be grateful to know about?

Perhaps it's a feature?

And from your other mail:

> My observation is that "news.zrz" also has an opinion on which
> combinations of outbound headers are "correct" and that the
> criteria for "correctness" are stricter than RFC850 for Usenet.

No matter how many times I read RFC 850 section 2.1.6 (or RFC 1036 for
that matter), I cannot see how this should be 'stricter' in any
way. On the contrary, it's criteria seems to be compliance.

> My news host, for example, will accept the exact same
> message that "news.zrz" rejects. It appears on Usenet.

That just proves that your news host has more lax requirements, not
that the article is in fact valid. To pull the SMTP comparison again,
our mailserver routinely reject mails that violate the specs, yet
another mailserver didn't reject them.

Frankly, I can't see what the big fuzz is about, inject the damn
References header, it's the right thing to do, whether one considers
it 'klunky' or not.

--
Thomas
be...@system-tnt.dk


daz

unread,
Jun 9, 2004, 6:19:03 PM6/9/04
to

Thomas Fini Hansen wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 03:53:44AM +0900, daz wrote:
> > newsreader threading or something... and returns an NNTP error as if
> > it were an NNTP violation (which it isn't).
>
> Doesn't seem much different than a SMTP server returning an SMTP error
> when SpamAssassin fires off.

SMTP error or SMTP USER error ?
Does a SpamAssassin rejection get reported as a badly formatted message ?
BTW: I don't need to know.

>
> Indeed it's not stricktly a NNTP error, but they're rejecting posts
> that violate the USENET RFC, so why doen't we just make the messages
> meet the RFC?
>

THE MISSING MESSAGES DO *NOT* VIOLATE USENET RFC.

The *local* news host that we're using doesn't like them
and won't forward them to Usenet.

> > Could it have a bug which the authors might be grateful to know about?
>
> Perhaps it's a feature?
>

I think you're being contrary.
It /could/ be a feature, but it's not a very useful feature to us, is it?
There could be other services using that news host which are getting
their posts dumped and are not aware of it.

> And from your other mail:
>
> > My observation is that "news.zrz" also has an opinion on which
> > combinations of outbound headers are "correct" and that the
> > criteria for "correctness" are stricter than RFC850 for Usenet.
>
> No matter how many times I read RFC 850 section 2.1.6 (or RFC 1036 for
> that matter), I cannot see how this should be 'stricter' in any
> way. On the contrary, it's criteria seems to be compliance.
>

Our messages are already compliant !
"news.zrz" is stricter in that it insists on an RFC-optional header (References:).

> > My news host, for example, will accept the exact same
> > message that "news.zrz" rejects. It appears on Usenet.
>
> That just proves that your news host has more lax requirements, not
> that the article is in fact valid.

What proves validity is that it arrived on Google.
What proof are _you_ looking for ??

> To pull the SMTP comparison again {...}

It's unhelpful. We can talk about NNTP.

>
> Frankly, I can't see what the big fuzz is about, inject the damn
> References header, it's the right thing to do, whether one considers
> it 'klunky' or not.
>

That's been done.

> --
> Thomas
> be...@system-tnt.dk
>
>


If I'm wrong about this, I'm sure someone else will let me know.

daz

David A. Black

unread,
Jun 9, 2004, 11:32:56 PM6/9/04
to
Hi --

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, daz wrote:

> THE MISSING MESSAGES DO *NOT* VIOLATE USENET RFC.

Here are some excerpts from RFC-1036 (which obsoleted RFC-850):


2.1.4. Subject

[...] If the message is submitted in response to another message
(e.g., is a follow-up) the default subject should begin with the
four characters "Re: ", and the "References" line is required.

[...]

2.2.5 References

[...] User interfaces need not make use of this header, but all
automatically generated follow-ups should generate the "References"
line for the benefit of systems that do use it, and manually
generated follow-ups (e.g., typed in well after the original message
has been printed by the machine) should be encouraged to include
them as well.

Based on this, I would definitely say that "Re: " messages without a
References header are in violation of this RFC.

I think the confusing thing is that the RFCs list References among
"optional headers", when it becomes clear from the more detailed
descriptions above that what they mean by "optional", at least for
this header, is "required for some, but not all, messages". (In other
cases I think it means "completely discretionary", as for example with
Organization.)

daz

unread,
Jun 10, 2004, 1:57:47 AM6/10/04
to


"Request For Comments" ? Makes me wonder if anyone did :-)
(comment, I mean)

Your interpretation, even if it's not correct, should be, IMHO.

References should be listed as "conditional", not "optional" ?

With that small revision, I could withdraw my CAPS-LOCKed statement.

Usenet itself doesn't consider them to be invalid. If "news.zrz"
were to send regardless, they would make it around the Usenet
servers.

-----

According to http://www.ietf.org/iesg/1rfc_index.txt (long),
850 & 1036 are both Status:UNKNOWN so perhaps there is no standard :-)

0850 Standard for interchange of USENET messages. M.R. Horton.
Jun-01-1983. (Format: TXT=43871 bytes) (Obsoleted by RFC1036)
(Status: UNKNOWN)

1036 Standard for interchange of USENET messages. M.R. Horton, R.
Adams. Dec-01-1987. (Format: TXT=46891 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC0850)
(Status: UNKNOWN)

-----

daz

David A. Black

unread,
Jun 10, 2004, 7:24:14 AM6/10/04
to
Hi --

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, daz wrote:

> David A. Black wrote:
> >
> > Here are some excerpts from RFC-1036 (which obsoleted RFC-850):
> >
> >
> > 2.1.4. Subject
> >
> > [...] If the message is submitted in response to another message
> > (e.g., is a follow-up) the default subject should begin with the
> > four characters "Re: ", and the "References" line is required.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > 2.2.5 References
> >
> > [...] User interfaces need not make use of this header, but all
> > automatically generated follow-ups should generate the "References"
> > line for the benefit of systems that do use it, and manually
> > generated follow-ups (e.g., typed in well after the original message
> > has been printed by the machine) should be encouraged to include
> > them as well.

[...]

> Usenet itself doesn't consider them to be invalid. If "news.zrz"
> were to send regardless, they would make it around the Usenet
> servers.

In practical terms, though, the spelling out of the requirement in the
RFC probably means that admins who have decided to comply with it are
not likely to be talked out of it, so there's probably not much point
pursuing that particular path. I'm not sure what that leaves us with.
Not much, I fear. I was thinking about maybe having a dummy message,
to which all these stranded messages could be sent as replies. It
would presumably take them out of the threads they were supposed to be
in, but at least it would get them through.

Austin Ziegler

unread,
Jun 10, 2004, 12:36:20 PM6/10/04
to
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1036.html
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2119.html

dbl...@wobblini.net:


> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, daz wrote:

>> THE MISSING MESSAGES DO *NOT* VIOLATE USENET RFC.

> Here are some excerpts from RFC-1036 (which obsoleted RFC-850):

> 2.1.4. Subject
> [...] If the message is submitted in response to another message
> (e.g., is a follow-up) the default subject should begin with the
> four characters "Re: ", and the "References" line is required.
> [...]

> 2.2.5 References
> [...] User interfaces need not make use of this header, but all
> automatically generated follow-ups should generate the
> "References" line for the benefit of systems that do use it, and
> manually generated follow-ups (e.g., typed in well after the
> original message has been printed by the machine) should be
> encouraged to include them as well.

> Based on this, I would definitely say that "Re: " messages without


> a References header are in violation of this RFC.

EXCEPT that the statements are "should" (see RFC2119 noted above)
and the header itself is optional. No news software should reject
any message missing the References header, even if best practices
would indicate that the References header is strongly recommended
when "Re: " is present. Both In-Reply-To and References are
*optional* in RFC2822 (the successor to RFC822). The real problem
with RFC1036 is that it (1) requires English (e.g., "Re: ")
backreferences, and (2) attempts to codify usage rules with
technical rules.

So, no, technically, messages missing "References:" are not in
violation of RFC1036.

(And no, there's *nothing* that I can do to force them there in
Outlook.)

-austin
--
austin ziegler * austin....@evault.com


Robert Klemme

unread,
Jun 10, 2004, 12:55:47 PM6/10/04
to

"Austin Ziegler" <Austin....@evault.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:04232E9E93B2D54FB1D...@ev-exch01.corp.evault.com...

Somehow this thread reminds me of discussions about GPL and LGPL.
Apparently there's still too much room for interpretation in these texts
although they were meant to clarify things...

Regards

robert

David A. Black

unread,
Jun 10, 2004, 3:28:51 PM6/10/04
to
Hi --

According to the above, References is "required", not "strongly
recommended", for follow-ups. Also, this apparently applies to all
follow-ups, while the adding on of "Re: " is only at "should" level.

> So, no, technically, messages missing "References:" are not in
> violation of RFC1036.

They're certainly in violation of parts of it :-) Here's another one:

2.2.5. References

This field lists the Message-ID's of any messages prompting the
submission of this message. It is required for all follow-up
messages, and forbidden when a new subject is raised.

(part of the [...] in my earlier excerpt) If References is truly
optional (that is, can be put or not put on any message), then someone
went to an awful lot of trouble for nothing in writing this paragraph
:-) The "forbidden" part is interesting too, because it also
weighs in on the side of References not being truly optional.

Anyway, I'm not a big fan of this aspect of the document. At best,
burying a requirement inside a paragraph on a header you've already
declared to be optional is a low-percentage way to go about it.

Meanwhile, I think Dennis is implementing the dummy-message thing, so
that any messages without references will be sent through as answers
to a message that exists for that purpose. This is sub-optimal, from
the threading point of view, but at least gets the posts through.

> (And no, there's *nothing* that I can do to force them there in
> Outlook.)

(Don't worry, I wasn't holding my breath :-)

Hal Fulton

unread,
Jun 10, 2004, 7:03:42 PM6/10/04
to
Robert Klemme wrote:
>>
>>So, no, technically, messages missing "References:" are not in
>>violation of RFC1036.
>
>
> Somehow this thread reminds me of discussions about GPL and LGPL.
> Apparently there's still too much room for interpretation in these texts
> although they were meant to clarify things...
>

I think part of the issue is the use of these modal auxiliaries.
(Thanks, Mrs. Sharp, my elementary English teacher who died last
month at 84.)

Some RFCs use "must" for things that are mandatory and "should" for
things that are recommended or suggested. Or something like that.
They also use the terms "may" and "can" (I believe).

I don't know whether all RFCs do this. I don't think they do.

IIRC, the "technolegal" documents like this tend to capitalize
these: "The client MAY do this, it MUST do that..."

But anyway, I haven't a clue what this part of this RFC actually
means.


Hal

daz

unread,
Jun 10, 2004, 7:11:12 PM6/10/04
to

David A. Black wrote:
>
>
> Meanwhile, I think Dennis is implementing the dummy-message thing, so
> that any messages without references will be sent through as answers
> to a message that exists for that purpose. This is sub-optimal, from
> the threading point of view, but at least gets the posts through.
>

First evidence of that is Austin's post that you're replying to :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Austin Ziegler"
Newsgroups: comp.lang.ruby
Subject: Re: Reply wasn't posted; will test new post
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 01:36:20 +0900
Message-ID: <04232E9E93B2D54FB1D...@ev-exch01.corp.evault.com>
References: <this_is_a_dummy_message-id@rubygate>
NNTP-Posting-Host: neutron.zrz.tu-berlin.de
X-received-from: This message has been automatically forwarded from ...
X-Mail-Count: 103103
In-Reply-To: <this_is_a_dummy_message-id@rubygate>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it would still work without the "In-Reply-To:" duplicate
(if Dennis wants to try that next).

It didn't break my threading but I don't get much trouble with that, anyway.
It /does/ break out of the sub-thread, but that's no different to what
would have happened before the change.
It threaded by Subject:, then Date: which some people might find
/preferable/ on news when reading a complete thread ?


Good signs! -- Watching out for a reply from the OP (Botp Peña).


daz

-----
test reply - please ignore

kind regards -botp
-----


Mark Hubbart

unread,
Jun 10, 2004, 7:22:02 PM6/10/04
to

On Jun 10, 2004, at 4:03 PM, Hal Fulton wrote:

> I think part of the issue is the use of these modal auxiliaries.
> (Thanks, Mrs. Sharp, my elementary English teacher who died last
> month at 84.)
>
> Some RFCs use "must" for things that are mandatory and "should" for
> things that are recommended or suggested. Or something like that.
> They also use the terms "may" and "can" (I believe).
>
> I don't know whether all RFCs do this. I don't think they do.

There's an RFC for that :) Seriously, I'm pretty sure there's an RFC
that defines the meaning of "must", "should", "compliant", etc., that
some RFCs reference.

cheers,
Mark

daz

unread,
Jun 10, 2004, 7:33:02 PM6/10/04
to

Austin posted the link, today.
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2119.html

I'm sure Mrs. Sharp didn't check it ;-)


daz

David A. Black

unread,
Jun 10, 2004, 7:36:40 PM6/10/04
to
Hi --

Yes, I think that's RFC2119, the one Austin mentioned. They don't
tell you how to resolve blatant contradictions, unfortunately :-)

"Peña, Botp"

unread,
Jun 13, 2004, 10:50:09 PM6/13/04
to
gabriele renzi [mailto:surren...@rc1.vip.ukl.yahoo.com] wrote:
>
> funny that the referenced page if from Pixel's merd web site,
> and near an year old. I mean, its funny cause I had not saw
> him on this list recently, I wonder wht is the next scripting
> language he moved to :)
>

you are correct. Maybe he is a language collector.

Note btw that Ruby 1.6.7 was compared w Perl 5.6 in the shootout :-))

kind regards -botp


Robert McGovern

unread,
Jun 14, 2004, 8:28:27 AM6/14/04
to
Just to follow up on myself.

The problem described below (i.e ruby segfaulting when running test.rb) has disappeared since I have updated from Cygwin dll version 1.5.9-1 to 1.5.10-3. Indeed I now have a test directory of 79 sub directories and test.rb works every time.

Just realised I had missed out the exclamation mark from my sort command in the examples, doh!

Rob

>>> r...@tarasis.net 05/28/04 02:00pm >>>
(repost of a message sent to ML as it appears to have not made it to
Newsgroup land)

Don't understand why the following segfaults under Cygwin when you
have a
directory of 21 (or more) entries (see example below)

$ cat test.rb
dirs = Dir.glob("*/")
dirs.sort { | x, y | File.new(x).ctime <=> File.new(y).ctime }
dirs.each { | x | puts x + " " + File.new(x).ctime.to_s }

but the following doesn't

$ cat test2.rb
dirs = Dir.glob("*/")
dirs.sort { | x, y | File.ctime(x) <=> File.ctime(y) }
dirs.each { | x | puts x + " " + File.ctime(x).to_s }

Also, why does test.rb produce the following using a native windows
compile.

C:\DEVELO~1\cygwin\home\robertm\test>ruby test.rb
test.rb:2:in `initialize': Permission denied - a/ (Errno::EACCES)
from test.rb:2:in `new'
from test.rb:2
from test.rb:2:in `sort'
from test.rb:2

I tried to capture a back trace but when I ran it through gdb it ran
perfectly.

Some further testing shows that test.rb works fine on Linux (Redhat
6.2 with 1.8.2 stable snapshot 2004-05-24 [i686-linux], unable to
build ruby 1.9.0 at the minute as autoconf to old)

Rob

--------------running test.rb in cygwin-------------------------

$ ruby test.rb
a/ Wed May 26 11:08:00 GMT0:00 2004
b/ Wed May 26 11:08:02 GMT0:00 2004
c/ Wed May 26 11:08:03 GMT0:00 2004
d/ Wed May 26 11:08:04 GMT0:00 2004
e/ Wed May 26 11:08:05 GMT0:00 2004
f/ Wed May 26 11:08:07 GMT0:00 2004
g/ Wed May 26 11:08:22 GMT0:00 2004
h/ Wed May 26 11:08:24 GMT0:00 2004
i/ Wed May 26 11:10:37 GMT0:00 2004
j/ Wed May 26 11:10:42 GMT0:00 2004
k/ Wed May 26 11:10:47 GMT0:00 2004
m/ Wed May 26 11:11:17 GMT0:00 2004
n/ Wed May 26 11:11:20 GMT0:00 2004
o/ Wed May 26 11:11:24 GMT0:00 2004
p/ Wed May 26 11:11:29 GMT0:00 2004
test.rb:3: [BUG] Segmentation fault
ruby 1.9.0 (2004-05-26) [i386-cygwin]

----------------running test2.rb in cygwin-------------------------

robertm@PC126 ~/test
$ ruby test2.rb
a/ Wed May 26 11:08:00 GMT0:00 2004
b/ Wed May 26 11:08:02 GMT0:00 2004
c/ Wed May 26 11:08:03 GMT0:00 2004
d/ Wed May 26 11:08:04 GMT0:00 2004
e/ Wed May 26 11:08:05 GMT0:00 2004
f/ Wed May 26 11:08:07 GMT0:00 2004
g/ Wed May 26 11:08:22 GMT0:00 2004
h/ Wed May 26 11:08:24 GMT0:00 2004
i/ Wed May 26 11:10:37 GMT0:00 2004
j/ Wed May 26 11:10:42 GMT0:00 2004
k/ Wed May 26 11:10:47 GMT0:00 2004
m/ Wed May 26 11:11:17 GMT0:00 2004
n/ Wed May 26 11:11:20 GMT0:00 2004
o/ Wed May 26 11:11:24 GMT0:00 2004
p/ Wed May 26 11:11:29 GMT0:00 2004
q/ Wed May 26 11:11:35 GMT0:00 2004
r/ Wed May 26 11:11:40 GMT0:00 2004
s/ Wed May 26 11:11:44 GMT0:00 2004
t/ Wed May 26 11:11:48 GMT0:00 2004
u/ Wed May 26 11:11:53 GMT0:00 2004
v/ Wed May 26 11:11:57 GMT0:00 2004

---------------Contents of ruby.exe.stackdump------------------

$ less ruby.exe.stackdump

Stack trace:
Frame Function Args
02409D28 77E7AC21 (00000000, F0C43524, 0240F098, 77E94809)
02409E28 6108A370 (000014C8, 02409E40, 02409E58, 610E8D26)
02409EE8 6108A64A (000014C8, 00000006, 02409F18, 6108AA1D)
02409EF8 6108A46C (00000006, 00000400, 02409F28, 0240A364)
02409F18 6108AA1D (61115378, 100102D9, 1009A4E0, 1009A4E6)
0240A358 610882AF (10085A02, 0240F140, 0240A398, 61027459)
0240A368 10085A32 (0000000B, 000000A4, 0240F098, 77E94809)
0240A398 61027459 (000004E8, 0000EA60, 000000A4, 0240A3D4)
0240A4A8 6108D282 (0240F098, 610252CD, 0240A990, 00000000)
0240A8A8 61025327 (0240A990, 0240F098, 0240A9AC, 0240A968)
0240A8CC 77FB172E (0240A990, 0240F098, 0240A9AC, 0240A968)
0240A978 77FB1700 (00000000, 0240A9AC, 0240A990, 0240A9AC)
0240AC78 77F75DBA (00000000, 00000000, 0240ACB8, 6101E154)
0240AC88 610317F4 (00000000, 006F0068, 0065006D, 0072005C)
0240ACB8 6101E154 (0240ACD0, 00000000, 00000000, 00000000)
0240B028 6101DEB8 (10148ED8, 00000000, 00000001, 00000000)
End of stack trace (more stack frames may be present)

----------------Attempt to get stack trace------------------

$ gdb ruby
GNU gdb 2003-09-20-cvs (cygwin-special)
Copyright 2003 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and
you are
welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain
conditions.

Type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB. Type "show warranty" for
details.
This GDB was configured as "i686-pc-cygwin"...
(gdb) run test.rb
Starting program: /usr/local/bin/ruby.exe test.rb
a/ Wed May 26 11:08:00 GMT0:00 2004
b/ Wed May 26 11:08:02 GMT0:00 2004
c/ Wed May 26 11:08:03 GMT0:00 2004
d/ Wed May 26 11:08:04 GMT0:00 2004
e/ Wed May 26 11:08:05 GMT0:00 2004
f/ Wed May 26 11:08:07 GMT0:00 2004
g/ Wed May 26 11:08:22 GMT0:00 2004
h/ Wed May 26 11:08:24 GMT0:00 2004
i/ Wed May 26 11:10:37 GMT0:00 2004
j/ Wed May 26 11:10:42 GMT0:00 2004
k/ Wed May 26 11:10:47 GMT0:00 2004
m/ Wed May 26 11:11:17 GMT0:00 2004
n/ Wed May 26 11:11:20 GMT0:00 2004
o/ Wed May 26 11:11:24 GMT0:00 2004
p/ Wed May 26 11:11:29 GMT0:00 2004
q/ Wed May 26 11:11:35 GMT0:00 2004
r/ Wed May 26 11:11:40 GMT0:00 2004
s/ Wed May 26 11:11:44 GMT0:00 2004
t/ Wed May 26 11:11:48 GMT0:00 2004
u/ Wed May 26 11:11:53 GMT0:00 2004
v/ Wed May 26 11:11:57 GMT0:00 2004

Program exited normally.
(gdb)


dr...@code-exec.net

unread,
Jul 1, 2004, 2:43:25 PM7/1/04
to
I will be creating very good documents for all of you to use later on.
Right
now I need to get this project done so I can get paid.

My original question was how could I get in the body of SOAP this..

<Getcustomer ..xml stuff>
<name ..xml stuff>High paying cusomters</name>
....122 entries..
<Getcustomer>

The answer to the problem was to implement a special array

myfile.rb --------------------------------------
require 'soap/marshal'

#licensed public domain
class GetCustomer; include SOAP::Marshallable
# must include to marshalize data

# multiple lines for readability
attr_accessor :name
attr_accessor :phoneNo
attr_accessor :otherEntry # wont show because I didn't set it

def initialize(setName,setPhoneNo)
@name, @phoneNo = setName, setPhoneNo
# must set instance variables or soap entries do not show
# the order of assignment matters.
# if @name, @phoneNo = setName, setPhoneNo then
#
# <phoneNo xsi:type="xsd:string">965-7516</phoneNo>
# <name xsi:type="xsd:string">Edward Sirg</name>
#
# if @phoneNo, @name = setPhoneNo, setName
#
# <name xsi:type="xsd:string">Edward Sirg</name>
# <phoneNo xsi:type="xsd:string">965-7516</phoneNo>
end
end

customer = [
GetCustomer.new("John Doe","555-555-555"),
GetCustomer.new("Edward Sirg","965-7516")
]

if $0 == __FILE__
customer.each do |cPerson|
print SOAP::Marshal.marshal(cPerson)
end
end
--------------------------------------------
Output:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?>
<env:Envelope xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"
xmlns:env="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/"
xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
<env:Body>
<GetCustomer xmlns:n1="http://www.ruby-lang.org/xmlns/ruby/type/custom"
xsi:type="n1:GetCustomer"
env:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
<name xsi:type="xsd:string">John Doe</name>
<phoneNo xsi:type="xsd:string">555-555-555</phoneNo>
</GetCustomer>
</env:Body>
</env:Envelope><?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?>
<env:Envelope xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema"
xmlns:env="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/"
xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
<env:Body>
<GetCustomer xmlns:n1="http://www.ruby-lang.org/xmlns/ruby/type/custom"
xsi:type="n1:GetCustomer"
env:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/">
<name xsi:type="xsd:string">Edward Sirg</name>
<phoneNo xsi:type="xsd:string">965-7516</phoneNo>
</GetCustomer>
</env:Body>

Of course this can be inserted into a SOAP service with ease. Well im out
to
finish my project. Talk later --David Ross


Original Message:
-----------------
From: Eric Schwartz emsc...@pobox.com
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 02:57:49 +0900
To: ruby...@ruby-lang.org (ruby-talk ML)
Subject: Re: SOAP4R API question


"dr...@code-exec.net" <dr...@code-exec.net> writes:
> nm, problem solved :P

Er, how did you solve your problem? For the rest of us who are just
reading about this, can you be more specific?

-=Eric
--
Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million
typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare.
-- Blair Houghton.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

dr...@code-exec.net

unread,
Jul 4, 2004, 4:07:31 AM7/4/04
to
sorry but your syntax is wrong. Also.. value is a string, so when you eval
after my fix it does this.. $foo = this is a value . that is not right.
you need to put quotes around it like the example below.

id = 'foo'
value = 'This is the value.'
eval "$#{id} = \"#{value}\""
# $foo => "This is a value"
----David Ross

----------------
dross [at] code (-dash-) exec %dot% net

#############################33

irb(main):003:0> eval "$#{id} + ' = ' + #{value}" # -> $id = 'This is the
value.'
SyntaxError: (eval):1:in `irb_binding': compile error
(eval):1: syntax error
$foo + ' = ' + This is the value.
^
(eval):1: syntax error
$foo + ' = ' + This is the value.
^
from (irb):3
from (irb):3
irb(main):004:0> eval "$#{id} + ' = ' + #{value}"
SyntaxError: (eval):1:in `irb_binding': compile error
(eval):1: syntax error
$foo + ' = ' + This is the value.
^
(eval):1: syntax error
$foo + ' = ' + This is the value.
^
from (irb):4
from (irb):4
irb(main):005:0> eval "$#{id} = #{value}"
SyntaxError: (eval):1:in `irb_binding': compile error
(eval):1: syntax error
$foo = This is the value.
^
from (irb):5
from (irb):5
irb(main):006:0> eval "$#{id} = \"#{value}\""
=> "This is the value."
irb(main):007:0> $foo
=> "This is the value."


Original Message:
-----------------
From: Dirk Einecke dirk.e...@gmx.de
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 16:57:44 +0900
To: ruby...@ruby-lang.org (ruby-talk ML)
Subject: Problem with "eval"


Hi.

I've a id and a value. Now I want a variable with id as name and the
content from value as value of this variable. I tryed like this:

id = 'foo'
value = 'This is the value.'
eval "$#{id} + ' = ' + #{value}" # -> $id = 'This is the value.'

But this is not working. What's wrong? Is there a better/faster way?

greetings
Dirk Einecke

Mehr, Assaph (Assaph)

unread,
Jul 9, 2004, 3:31:08 AM7/9/04
to
Take a look at win32-process:
http://raa.ruby-lang.org/project/win32-process/
(part of the win32-utils project).
Take a look also at the builtin Process class
(http://www.ruby-doc.org/docs/rdoc/1.9/classes/Process.html).


-----Original Message-----
From: "bru...@poczta.onet.pl"@80.48.246.196
[mailto:"bru...@poczta.onet.pl"@80.48.246.196] On Behalf Of olek
Sent: Thursday, 1 July 2004 5:13 PM
To: ruby-talk ML
Subject: How to close application on Windows?


Hi,
I need to open some application from ruby on WinXP, get some action
connected to that app. and close it.

thread= Thread.new(0) {
system("abt.exe") # opening my app.
}
sleep(20) # time for start abt.exe
#getting data from abt.exe
system("hptcmd export")
#closing abt.exe - it doesn't work!!!!
Thread.kill(thread)
#abt.exe still active

Maybe I should kill a procces connected to that application so the
application would be closed ....?

Thanks for every advice
Mariusz

David Ross

unread,
Jul 27, 2004, 1:51:14 PM7/27/04
to
>It's called "RPA", and is intended to be the Debian
>or ports of
>Ruby. I'm not sold on that one, either, because
>it's ?not a single
>installation mechanism that developers can use, but
>more of a
>process that also has an installation mechanism. The
>packagers
>aren't necessarily the developers.
You are welcomed to join in packaging. We listen to
the developers and go with what they are needing the
package to do. The point of using rpa is so developers
do not have to worry about packaging.


>I need to do a few things to it (e.g., look for
>collision detection and make sure that we're only
>installing on our ancestral versions if at
>all possible, as well as make an uninstall file).

RPA has collision detection.

> lib/ruby/gems/VERSION/gems/diff-lcs-1.0.1/...
> lib/ruby/gems/VERSION/gems/diff-lcs-1.0.2/...
>This is one of the things that I don't like about
>RubyGems and
>think that RPA will possibly handle better -- but
>I'm not sure.

When you upgrade any software installed, it uninstalls
the old one. It's atomic too cause a snapshot of the
old one is taken before you replace it. That way you
can rollback later if needed.

> I think that RubyGems has to do some work with
> respect to ri integration, but ri is the preferred
> way for handling
> this stuff at least right now. As far as
>manpage/help stuff is
>concerned, there are two ideal choices for option
>handling and.......

rpa-base has ri integration as well.


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Chad Fowler

unread,
Jul 27, 2004, 10:08:44 PM7/27/04
to
On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 02:51:14 +0900, David Ross <dros...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I think that RubyGems has to do some work with
> > respect to ri integration, but ri is the preferred
> > way for handling
> > this stuff at least right now. As far as
> >manpage/help stuff is
> >concerned, there are two ideal choices for option
> >handling and.......
>
> rpa-base has ri integration as well.
>
>

RubyGems 1.0 will integrate with 'ri' cleanly. It's on the short TODO
list. We've been talking to Dave about how best to do it, and I think
it can be done seamlessly. Just has to bubble to the top of the list.
:)

Chad


Warren Brown

unread,
Jul 28, 2004, 7:37:14 PM7/28/04
to
Lennon,

> there appears to be no standard way of getting an identifier
> for the last row inserted.
> ...
> Does anyone have a general solution for this they've used
> (or seen described/mentioned) elsewhere?

Check out the "IdentifierType = SQL_BEST_ROWID" parameter of the
ODBC SQLSpecialColumns function. The MS reference is here:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/odbc/ht
m/odbcsqlspecialcolumns.asp. This function returns the column or
columns that uniquely identify each row in a table. These columns are
guaranteed to work in a WHERE clause. If there are no columns that
uniquely identify a row in the table, the function returns an empty
"rowset". This was introduced in ODBC 1.0, so it should be available
everywhere.

I have never used it myself, but it sounds like exactly what you are
looking for.

I'm guessing this will help :o)

- Warren Brown

Robert McGovern

unread,
Aug 2, 2004, 5:35:13 AM8/2/04
to
> > You betcha! I just got my fancy Sony microphone hooked up, so the next
> > videos will also have a voice over. I'll be posting them to the newly
> > established Rails Academy at
> > http://www.rubyonrails.org/show/RailsAcademy
>
> What microphone did you get? I've been considering getting one for a
> while and didn't know which one to get. I have a 12" iBook which I
> don't think has a conventional input port.

Just to say I would be interested to know what the microphone is.

I have a friend that is interested in being all to record some lectures he is attending onto his laptop but wants a decent mike for the job.

Thanks

Rob

David Heinemeier Hansson

unread,
Aug 2, 2004, 5:54:51 AM8/2/04
to
>> What microphone did you get? I've been considering getting one for a
>> while and didn't know which one to get. I have a 12" iBook which I
>> don't think has a conventional input port.
>
> Just to say I would be interested to know what the microphone is.
>
> I have a friend that is interested in being all to record some
> lectures he is attending onto his laptop but wants a decent mike for
> the job.

Sorry to forget about this thred. I got a Sony ECM-MS907. It's not
really optimal for the purpose as it's a handheld mic, so I have to
tuck it into my shirt to hold it up while I use both hands at the
computer. It works better than it sounds, but I'd prefer having either
a headset with a good mic or a TV-mic (you know, one of those
clip-ons).

I've just been doing some tests last night (I promised to do a demo of
TextMate[1] as well) and the sound quality is pretty decent. For
recording lectures, though, you want a room mic. And a pretty strong
one at that. My mic is really meant for interviews, so it's extremely
good at blocking out all of the surrounding sounds. Or everything
coming from the audience.

P.S.: For Macs without audio-in, you want to get the Griffin iMic[2].

[1] http://www.macromates.com
[2] http://www.griffintechnology.com/products/imic/
--
David Heinemeier Hansson,
http://www.rubyonrails.org/ -- Web-application framework for Ruby
http://www.instiki.org/ -- A No-Step-Three Wiki in Ruby
http://www.basecamphq.com/ -- Web-based Project Management
http://www.loudthinking.com/ -- Broadcasting Brain
http://www.nextangle.com/ -- Development & Consulting Services

Robert McGovern

unread,
Aug 6, 2004, 5:05:41 AM8/6/04
to
> Sorry to forget about this thred. I got a Sony ECM-MS907. It's not
> really optimal for the purpose as it's a handheld mic, so I have to
> tuck it into my shirt to hold it up while I use both hands at the
> computer. It works better than it sounds, but I'd prefer having either
> a headset with a good mic or a TV-mic (you know, one of those
> clip-ons).

+

> For recording lectures, though, you want a room mic.

Thats okay David (I just did the same till emptying my mail box), thanks for taking the time to answer.

Its interesting, I had someone else recommend that mic to me the other day but they thought it would be fine for doing lectures as it can work for either 90 or 120 degree angles. Just to clarify this is the mic you are talking about: http://www.sel.sony.com/SEL/consumer/ss5/home/accessories/microphonesfordigital/ecm-ms907.shtml

Rob


"Peña, Botp"

unread,
Aug 11, 2004, 10:03:57 PM8/11/04