Event-driven GUIs, PythonWorks, Boa, wxWindows; future directions of event-driven Python?

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Ron Stephens

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Jun 17, 2001, 9:25:36 AM6/17/01
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I am taking a week's vacation the week after next. I plan to spend this
week trying to learn event-driven programming using Python. I would sure
appreciate any comments or guidance from folks on this list, so that I
hopefully can make productive use of my time. I admit to being a little
confused or overwhelmed by the many options available to me.

I am very happy with my learning of Python as a procedural language. I
have committed the core language to memory and can program at will
without consulting documentation. I am learning to use library modules.
I have never been this successful with any other programming language. I
have limited time due to job related travel (I do not work in IT in any
way; this is I suppose a hobby, albeit it is becoming a serious one.).

I have not been successful heretonow in gui or event driven programming
. Learning and using Tkinter is much harder for me that procedural
Python. I am doing fine on classes and object oriented Python also, but
not event driven programing. Some of the options available to me that I
am aware of are: (I am programming on a Windows 98 machine).

1. Tkinter and wxPython. I have not been too successful with Tkinter,
but I do not rule it out. I have just begun to look at wxPython. Does
anyone think wxPython is easier to learn and use than Tkinter, or about
the same?

2. Boa Constructor and wxPython. I have downloaded Boa and it looks
complicated, but I like the idea of a VisualBasic like gui designer. Is
Boa far enough along to be used? Any comments on Boa?

3. PythonWorks. I just downloaded the evaluation copy. OK, it costs
$395, a lot of money to pay for a hobbyist. However, if it were the
answer to my prayers and far better, as a gui painter, than any other
alternative, I guess I would consider it. Does anyone have experience
with Pythonware and could you comment? I am really mainly interested in
the gui painter.

4. theKompany's BlackAdder. Same as above. For some reason, I seem more
favorably inclined towards Pythonware, btu I don't know why ;-)) Anyone
have any experience with BlackAdder and can you comment?

5. I am vaguely aware of other alternatives such as qt toolkits, gtk
toolkits, etc.

6. Java based solutions. I am successful in getting my scripts to run
under Jython. I am a little, just a little, familiar with Java and the
JVM's. It occurs to me that there may be Java based gui painters that I
could use as a front end to connect to jython based programs? A few
years ago I used a Sun product called Java Studio that fell in this
category; I like Java Studio, but Sun discontinued it. Are there any
open source or even commercial products I should consider?

7. Someone on the list mentioned they use Jbuilder from Borland as a gui
painter for their Python programs. Hmmm, Jbuilder has a boxed package
for sale much cheaper than even Pythonworks ;-))) Any comments pro or
con???? I doubt that this would fit my definition of "easy" to learn and
to use, but who knows???

I would appreciate any comments. Python's ease of learning and ease of
use opens new doors for "low IQ" programmers like myself. But much that
one might wish to do involves event-driven programming, and Python does
not yet, it seems to me, offer the same ease of use in this arena. But I
keep searching and hoping. Event driven programming is awful important
and it would be nice if Python's core advantages could somehow extend
into this area.

I would prefer to stick to a solution that is as much Python-like as
possible, but a jython-Java GUI solution is also of interest. Maybe I
will try one of each.

I think this whole topic of discussions of interest to many newbie's and
programming hobbyists, not just to myself. A successful address to this
"problem" could seriously propel Python even further as an educational
and first-learning language. I would really enjoy a discussion of pros
and cons and possible directions to explore, both now and also in the
future, if anyone can predict future directions of even-driven GUI
programming and Python. ;-))))

Ron Stephens

res04o20

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Jun 17, 2001, 3:17:27 PM6/17/01
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Hi y'all. I'm new here so bear with me. ;-)

Ron,
I've had the same "problem". I'm a working SE/ProjectMgr. (26 years), and
have gotten very spoiled by VB and the like. But, I've also been forced to
re-learn the old addage, "There is no royal road to Geometry". In other
words, there ain't no substitute fer just bitin'-the-bullet and learnin'
it. Tkinter is the place to start. Do yourself a favor and get a copy of
"Programming Python 2nd Edition". It's got the best tutorial I've seen yet
on Tkinter. Everything you learn there will only help you in any other
paradigm. Tkinter IS event-driven. It's just not "Visual...". I also have
played with wxPython and like it too.

Now. Here's another way to go. Just use VB or some Office VBE with Forms2
(or even Word fields or Excel cells) as your gui. The other great book I've
read, "Programming Python on Win32" shows you how to do it. It's not hard.
That's of course, if you have access to VB/Office and can stomach using it.
Some folks just refuse, and I can't blame 'em.

Here's another thing I have been playing with. Download "Forte for Java"
Community Edition from Sun. It's free. Free is good. It builds Java AWT and
Swing GUI's. (Could also potentially integrate well with Jython...? ) Design
a gui, and look at the code it generates. You could just use that code as a
framework, and convert the code to use Tkinter or wxPython calls instead of
Java. (Python can do that! See note on Jython below, though.) But you still
have to KNOW your package and how it works. You'll also get more
satisfaction and be able to fix your own problems, if your gui builder
doesn't hide all the details from you.
BTW, did I mention it's free?

wxPython. I like it, but it's ANOTHER package you have to download, install,
and learn. It doesn't come with Python. It may in the future. Who knows.
(One advantage - doesn't depend on Tcl.)

Jython. Love it. Be prepared to learn alot of Java/AWT/Swing. Another
package. Enough said.

And here's one more idea. DHTML. It's ubiquitous, free and powerful. Makes a
good gui and there's a ton of free (or cheap) visual designers for it.
(Check out MacroMedia.com. And Allaire, which they just bought/merged with.
Look at the HomeSite HTML Editor. Very interesting. And inexpensive. And
powerful.) Hook in your Python handlers and yer in business. (You might want
to experiment with using JxScript for the actual event-handlers, and then
calling your Python routines from there. I've had a little trouble in some
cases using pure-Python event-handlers. In IE, JxScript is more tightly
integrated with the DOM.) Course, you'll have to use the .hta model, not
.htm, to get out of restricted mode and have a full-blown IE app. It's so
difficult. You have to change one letter in the extension! ;-) See MS
WebWorkshop site on Reusing Browser Technology and HTA's. (I'm talking
Win32/IE here. I'm ignorant of Netscape and wary of Mozilla yet. Time will
tell on that. (ActiveState Komodo is built on Mozilla, and it's an absolute
dog on performance. Current beta is better than 1.0 but not much. But it's
getting there...)
I am seriously considering taking my development team in this direction for
a new Multi-Dimensional Analysis (OLAP) application for SQL Server.

And lastly, ActiveState has announced "Visual Python". Only problem is, you
gotta have MS .Net. (shudder) (Yet another implementation of Python. This
time in C#. Another learning curve to be ultimately successful.)

I've looked at Pythonware and Boa., etc. Good potential. I just don't want
to be locked into another IDE structure. What if I have to convert out of
it? What about my project structures? Do they integrate versioning software?
Do they store everything in XML or DBM or Pickles or Shelves? Or who knows
what? Just haven't had enough time to look into those issues. Of course,
these are project management issues which may not be of any concern for your
purposes. Best thing is just play with them see what works for you and what
you can afford.

Hope these ideas help. Good luck!
(And I'll also be interested in other folks' responses!)

Dave Wald


"Ron Stephens" <rds...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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Brian Quinlan

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Jun 17, 2001, 4:41:11 PM6/17/01
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Paul wrote:
> You are conflating two different things. Visual Python [1] and Python
> .NET [2] are completely unrelated (but interoperable, of course)

For those of us who don't read dictionaries in our spare time:

Main Entry: con.flate
Pronunciation: k&n-'flAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): con.flat.ed; con.flat.ing
Etymology: Latin conflatus, past participle of conflare to blow
together, fuse, from com- + flare to blow -- more at BLOW
Date: 1610
1 a : to bring together : FUSE b : CONFUSE
2 : to combine (as two readings of a text) into a composite whole

[Taken from the Merriam-Webster Collegiate dictionary
(http://www.m-w.com/)]


Paul Prescod

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Jun 17, 2001, 4:29:33 PM6/17/01
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res04o20 wrote:
>
>...

>
> And lastly, ActiveState has announced "Visual Python". Only problem is, you
> gotta have MS .Net. (shudder) (Yet another implementation of Python. This
> time in C#. Another learning curve to be ultimately successful.)

You are conflating two different things. Visual Python [1] and Python


.NET [2] are completely unrelated (but interoperable, of course)

[1] http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Downloads/VisualPython/
[2] http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/NET/
--
Take a recipe. Leave a recipe.
Python Cookbook! http://www.ActiveState.com/pythoncookbook

Roman Suzi

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Jun 17, 2001, 4:03:25 PM6/17/01
to res04o20, pytho...@python.org
On Sun, 17 Jun 2001, res04o20 wrote:

>Hi y'all. I'm new here so bear with me. ;-)
>

>Now. Here's another way to go. Just use VB or some Office VBE with Forms2
>(or even Word fields or Excel cells) as your gui. The other great book I've
>read, "Programming Python on Win32" shows you how to do it. It's not hard.
>That's of course, if you have access to VB/Office and can stomach using it.
>Some folks just refuse, and I can't blame 'em.

2 months ago I did a simple Visual Basic macro to search-replace and wow!
it was so much fun to see how your screen is filled with trash (even
though I switched screen refresh off), scroll-bar in convulsions, etc.

It was also funny that converting my special markup into HTML+another
markup by Python on Linux was 2 times faster than it takes MS Word to read
HTML + convert another markup (mostly by search-replace regex)! (And what
a pitiful regex MS Word has!!! I wonder, where have they took it.)

Maybe, my approach was too direct, but I had enough "fun" to remember
using MS Word in batch processing mode to guess how it feels in programmed
interactive GUI mode...

Sincerely yours, Roman Suzi
--
_/ Russia _/ Karelia _/ Petrozavodsk _/ r...@onego.ru _/
_/ Sunday, June 17, 2001 _/ Powered by Linux RedHat 6.2 _/
_/ "Tis better to have loved a short than to never have loved a tall." _/


Ron Stephens

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Jun 17, 2001, 5:02:02 PM6/17/01
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Thanks! You give me a lot of good ideas, comments, and food for thought, all of
which are relevant to my upcoming decisions. As you allude to indirectly, and
which I didn't mention in my original post, I would really like to ultimately be
able to use my stuff on the web in web pages readable by standard browsers. But
one step at a time is more than enough ;-)))

I do want to avoid buying Visual Basic or Visual Studio. That's where I draw the
line. I'm really glad that ActiveState is porting Python to .Net, because it's
good for Python and the community, but I do not want to buy into that package.

Maybe you are right, I may just have to dig into Tkinter or wxPython; if so, the
week I'm off on vacation is the right time to do it anyway. But still I must
decide between Tkinter and wxPython, which is a big decision.

I will look into Sun's Forte for java. I will probably want to do a Jython -java
exploration in addition to my main thrust of Python and (Tkinter or wxPython).

If I go with Tkinter, I would always have the option of buying PythonWare's
stuff later, since it is based on Tkinter. I would still like a recommendation
from someone who has used PythonWorks, particularly the gui painter.

If I go with wxWindows, I would have the option of going with Boa Constructor
later. So, my decision between Tkinter and wxPython looms a as large one.

For my web stuff, if I were not into Python, my uses would divide into two
parts. On the one part, some of the stuff I want to do would be eminently
do-able with just HTML and JavaScript. I may well do that because its just
plain easier in the end. (Maybe DHTML too, but I don't know that yet). But i
really woudl prefer to stick with Python based stuff

The other half of my web stuff will require at least CGI and maybe true server
side scripting. I have opened an account just now with Hoibbiton which allows
CGI but not calls to outside URL's, which I am want to do for some simple but
specific webstuff to create up to date web links for subjects of interest to
me. Does anyone know of any Python web spider software already written?

I still have not tried Webware or Zope really. Webware sounds more simple and
Zope has the site Hurrah which is $20 per month but exposes Zope and Python
scripts. All of this I learned about on this great list. But obviously I am
going off in too many directions all at once and can not learn all of this in
one short week, even while on vacation and devoting myself completely fulltime
to Python ;-)))

Thanks Dave, for your help!!!

Ron Stephens

Blaster_boy

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Jun 17, 2001, 5:07:06 PM6/17/01
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Hello Ron,

I am not a very good python programmer, still learning the basics, but it's
the language I've decided to learn after looking at a lot of other
languages.

Perhaps this is not for you, but have you thought about using Zope ? In it's
own way, that too is an event-driven user interface. True, you need to learn
yet another language (DTML), but you can easely integrate it with python
scripts (at least, that's what I am reading in the Zope book...). My plan
is, since our intranet phonebook falls over all the time (just when you
absolutely need that phone number) to write a python script that read in the
csv file, and link that with Zope to provide my own phonebook.

Regards, and I'ld be interested as well in other comments...

A

What about using ZOPE as


"Ron Stephens" <rds...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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res04o20

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Jun 17, 2001, 5:20:23 PM6/17/01
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Paul,

In that case, I'll have to take another look. The Visual Python[1] could be
of major interest. Thanks!

Regards,
Dave


"Paul Prescod" <pa...@ActiveState.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.992809646...@python.org...

Ron Stephens

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Jun 17, 2001, 7:37:53 PM6/17/01
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1. Is Tkinter likely to be ported over to MacOS X soon?
2. Is Tkinter gui-code usable in any kind of web scripting? In other words,
are forms and tables generated in Tkinter usable to gather user input
through web browsers and can Tkinter be used to output data to web browsers?
I think not???

(OK I know I'm cheating, but two more closely related sub-questions)

1a. Is wxPython likely to be ported over to the Mac OS X opsys soon? Sooner
or later than Tkinter?
2a. Is wxPython code usable in any kind of web scripting?

Comment: For those of you who use Linux, there is a nice article in the new
online issue of Linux Journal about using Glade as a gui User Interface
development tool for Python. I am using Windows, but if I were using Linux,
Glade would be a top priority perhaps.

Link to article http://www2.linuxjournal.com/cgi-bin/frames.pl/index.html

or to Linux Journal front page if above link doesn't work:
http://www2.linuxjournal.com/cgi-bin/frames.pl/index.html

Dave Wald

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Jun 17, 2001, 11:27:11 PM6/17/01
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Me again... ;-)

Hint: Turn the problem around. Instead of trying to host Tkinter or wxPython
windows in a browser, host the browser in your windows, just like IE does,
for example. IE is just a container for two MS Active-X controls,
shdocvw.dll and mshtml.dll. The first is called the WebBrowser control, and
it in turn hosts the HTML parser. Again, I think there is an example of this
in one of the books I mentioned earlier. At any rate, I think you would have
better luck with this approach using wxPython than Tkinter, since it is
C++-based to begin with.

But at any rate...

> 1. Is Tkinter likely to be ported over to MacOS X soon?

No idea. No speaky Mac.

> 2. Is Tkinter gui-code usable in any kind of web scripting? In other
words,
> are forms and tables generated in Tkinter usable to gather user input
> through web browsers and can Tkinter be used to output data to web
browsers?
> I think not???

Short answer: No. Not "through" the browser.
Here is how I would approach this. I don't see any reason you could not
simply use your Tkinter or wxPython objects from within script blocks in a
(D)HTML page. Once you're in Python, you're IN Python. Put them in a
separate module in your application package and import what you need. The
windows should just pop up in front of the browser, just like an alert or a
VBScript Msgbox. Get your user input and truck on.
(Marketing alert: It's usually not a good idea to mix UI paradigms, it may
confuse your users/customers. And they do NOT like feeling confused...
believe me. But, Microsoft Money does it all over the place...<shrug> )
The only technical problem I can see here is threading. Since you are
running in the same process with the browser, and in this scenario the
browser is the host, you might have to run your Tk or wx windows on a
separate thread, but I doubt it. Same potential problem as running Tkinter
modules from within PythonWin, but that's another story... This gets real
technical, and may not be worth the trouble, but really should not be too
difficult using one of the threading modules available, if you HAVE to. Here
again, I'm not a guru on this aspect by any means, yet, (I'll probably have
to become one before it's all over), but it should work just fine. But
again, if you turn the problem around as above, and host the browser control
in YOUR window, there should not be ANY problems. I would investigate the
pure-Python-based examples of this first, since it sounds like
cross-platform is a major concern for you. Again, I apologize for my
Windows-centric approach to all of this, but all of our customers are
Windows, so that's the focus I know best at this point. But I KNOW I've seen
an example of the pure Python approach, probably in the PP2E book.

>
> (OK I know I'm cheating, but two more closely related sub-questions)
>
> 1a. Is wxPython likely to be ported over to the Mac OS X opsys soon?
Sooner
> or later than Tkinter?

Again, no idea. I would suspect sooner. Just gut feel. The wx guys are
hungrier. ;-)
But really, I would ask them if it's a serious concern.

> 2a. Is wxPython code usable in any kind of web scripting?
>

Same deal as above, just might be a little cleaner, since there is no Tcl
layer.

Regards,

Dave


bradclark1

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Jun 18, 2001, 3:21:11 AM6/18/01
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"Paul Prescod" <pa...@ActiveState.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.992809646...@python.org...

Am I missing something here? From what I read at the above it says for .net.
I didn't see anything else about it?

Brad

Dave Wald

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Jun 18, 2001, 1:08:18 AM6/18/01
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"bradclark1" <bradc...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:ePZ#Y669AHA.266@cpmsnbbsa07...

I had to go back and read it again closely. "Visual Python" is hosted in the
Visual Studio .Net, but still uses CPython. Just requires VS.Net.
"Python.Net" is the experimental implementation of Python in C#, which also
requires .Net, for the unified run-time system, AFAIK.

Bottom line: Ya gotta have .Net either way.

So, we'll probably just set up a .Net beta machine and play with it.
Bout time we looked into it anyway... I've just been evading the subject
while "strategically re-deploying our legacy code base". ;-)

Regards,
Dave

Paul Prescod

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Jun 18, 2001, 1:25:53 AM6/18/01
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bradclark1 wrote:
>
>...

>
> Am I missing something here? From what I read at the above it
> says for .net.
> I didn't see anything else about it?

Visual Python:

[1] http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Downloads/VisualPython/

Visual Python is an IDE plug-in for Visual Studio.NET. Visual Studio.NET
is an IDE from Microsoft that has the four letters .NET at the end to
convince you that it is sufficiently different from Visual Studio 7 that
you should buy it. You can develop .NET applications with Visual Studio
.NET but you can also develop old fashioned Windows applications or raw
text files. Or, thanks to Visual Python, Python programs. Those Python
programs are exactly the same as those you would create with Komodo, or
PythonWin, or IDLE. It is just a Python development environment embedded
in Visual Studio. If you want, you could copy the scripts to Unix and
use them there. There is nothing .NET about them.

Python for .NET:

[2] http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/NET/

Python.NET is an experimental *re-implementation* of Python for the .NET
framework. It allows Python programs to be first-class .NET citizens
alongside C#, C++ and Visual Basic. You could use Visual Studio.NET to
create Python.NET programs but you could also use notepad or IDLE or
anything else that can edit Python programs. It's just a new interpreter
for Python programs. It isn't tied to any development environment.

Steven Burr

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Jun 18, 2001, 2:34:41 AM6/18/01
to
In article <3B2BF029...@earthlink.net>, Ron Stephens
<rds...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> 1. Is Tkinter likely to be ported over to MacOS X soon?

In a sense, it already has been. XFree86 has been ported to Darwin in
a form that runs side-by-side with Aqua. (You can switch to X Windows
by clicking a button and back to Aqua by typing cmd-opt-A.) Tcl/tk is
also available for Darwin. With XFree86, tcl/tk and the Darwin version
of Python, I've been able to run Python/Tkinter apps in X Windows on my
Mac.

On the other hand, based on what I've read in the Mac-Python SIG and
elsewhere, nobody seems to be working on a port of tcl/tk to Carbon or
Cocoa.

Alex Martelli

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Jun 18, 2001, 3:38:05 AM6/18/01
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"bradclark1" <bradc...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:ePZ#Y669AHA.266@cpmsnbbsa07...
...

> Am I missing something here? From what I read at the above it says for
.net.
> I didn't see anything else about it?

*sigh* once again, trust Microsoft's marketing to make an unholy
mess of things. Microsoft .NET is a specific platform architecture
with an intermediate-language (MSIL), a common runtime library, &c.

So "of course" MS's marketing immediately went and stuck a ".NET"
affix to the next releases of a slew of Microsoft products that do
*NOT* require or mandate this new platform architecture (though
they may to some degree support it -- but not necessarily), such
as the new releases of many "Microsoft Backoffice" servers, and
the new release of Microsoft Visual Studio (it's not going to be
VS7, as it's coming after VS6 -- it's going to be VS.NET...).

Activestate's Visual Python supports and relies on Microsoft
Visual Studio 7, and unfortunately the latter *IS* named
"Microsoft Visual Studio .NET". Activestate's Visual Python
does ***NOT*** require you to install Microsoft's .NET *PLATFORM*
nor to develop for it -- because "VS.NET" doesn't. The naming
of "VS.NET" is basically just the usual geniuses in MS's mktg
at work -- like back when they managed to muddy the waters
enough between COM and Active/X (two related technologies with
*BIG* differences -- COM being the platform upon which you
might OR MIGHT NOT choose to further deploy/support ActiveX) as
to set widespread adoption of COM back...:-(.

The overall technical picture and the strategical prospects
are complicated enough that the last thing the industry needs
is brilliant marketeers throwing spanners in the work by
creative naming. To be honest, although MS's mktg does have
this "endearing" habit, they're far from alone -- one of the
worst examples of this creative naming was Netscape's renaming
of livescript to "Javascript", which is ***STILL TODAY*** a
source of confusion for Dynamic HTML students who believe they
may have to study some Java to control their webpages because
it "sounds" like Javascript has something to do with Java (it
doesn't, besides the thinnest syntax-sugar similarity, but...).


Alex

Alex Martelli

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Jun 18, 2001, 4:15:40 AM6/18/01
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"Paul Prescod" <pa...@ActiveState.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.99284180...@python.org...
[mostly snipped excellent explanation]

> Visual Python is an IDE plug-in for Visual Studio.NET. Visual Studio.NET
> is an IDE from Microsoft that has the four letters .NET at the end to
> convince you that it is sufficiently different from Visual Studio 7 that

I think you mean 6 where you wrote 7 here...?

> you should buy it. You can develop .NET applications with Visual Studio
> .NET but you can also develop old fashioned Windows applications or raw

I find it incredible that MS mktg doesn't understand the deep (and
justified on the burned-once principle) *CONSERVATISM* of many, many
development organizations. Those "four letters at the end", as you
so well put it, ARE convincing many that the IDE "is sufficiently
different from VS6" that they *WON'T* buy it -- or, at least, not yet.

If they've made the strategic decision not to develop for the .NET
platform YET (quite a reasonable one for many development orgs at
this point -- experimentation is one thing, but production SW on
which big money depends needs to proceed very cautiously), and the
'brilliant' folks at MS mktg manage to convince them that VS.NET
*IS* about .NET, then it follows that development will remain on
good old VS6 -- period. *sigh*. What a mktg *GOOF*...!-(


Alex

Bernhard Reiter

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Jun 18, 2001, 5:47:48 AM6/18/01
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In article <3B2B60AD...@earthlink.net>,
Ron Stephens <rds...@earthlink.net> writes:

> I have not been successful heretonow in gui or event driven programming

Event driven GUI programming is not really easy and the tools
available are complicated.


> 1. Tkinter and wxPython. I have not been too successful with Tkinter,
> but I do not rule it out. I have just begun to look at wxPython. Does
> anyone think wxPython is easier to learn and use than Tkinter, or about
> the same?

WxPython is IMO harder to learn, but offers more.
GUI kits which are conceptually easy to understand
and therefore easy to learn
are not suitable for real-life GUIs as a rule of thumb.

WxPython also is more difficult to learn, because it is based
on a C++ class library (wxWindows).

Having said this, I still thinkg wxPython is your best choice given
the circumstances I know.

> 2. Boa Constructor and wxPython. I have downloaded Boa and it looks
> complicated, but I like the idea of a VisualBasic like gui designer. Is
> Boa far enough along to be used? Any comments on Boa?

Boa is a nice piece of software but it is overly complicated.
You can use it when you know what you are doing.
So I do not recomment it for you as you are in the leaning stage.

> 3. PythonWorks. I just downloaded the evaluation copy. OK, it costs $395,

I stick to Free Software exclusively.
Bernhard
--
Professional Service around Free Software (intevation.net)
The FreeGIS Project (freegis.org)
Association for a Free Informational Infrastructure (ffii.org)
FSF Europe (fsfeurope.org)

Dave Wald

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Jun 18, 2001, 8:16:29 AM6/18/01
to
Precisely what I needed! Thanks Paul and Alex. These explanations will help
me tremendously. I'll probably have VS.Net crammed down my throat at some
point, like it or not, if experience is any guide. But it's great to have
the facts.
Regards,
Dave

"Alex Martelli" <ale...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9gkb4...@enews2.newsguy.com...

Steve Holden

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Jun 18, 2001, 9:19:05 AM6/18/01
to
Oh. You mean ".NET" isn't Microsoft marketing-speak for "Not Yet"?

tongue-in-cheek-ly y'rs - steve
--
http://www.holdenweb.com/


"Alex Martelli" <ale...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:9gkdb...@enews2.newsguy.com...

Roman Suzi

unread,
Jun 18, 2001, 9:37:04 AM6/18/01
to pytho...@python.org
On 18 Jun 2001, Bernhard Reiter wrote:

>In article <3B2B60AD...@earthlink.net>,
> Ron Stephens <rds...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>> I have not been successful heretonow in gui or event driven programming
>
>Event driven GUI programming is not really easy and the tools
>available are complicated.

I still remember HyperCard with warm feelings. It had very comfortable
look&feel both from developer's and user's perspective. Every object had
it's own script, which contained event handlers. Events were forwarded
automatically from contained objects to containers and if not handled,
Hypercard was the last who intercepted them. (Much like exceptions).

Very nice scheme, which allowed to concentrate on the GUI and application
logic, and not on the message propagation details.

What I wanted to say, is that GUI programming is really easy when tools
are like HyperCard: conceptually simple and powerful. Because all that
complication comes from not hiding unnecessary details. Tk is like
Assembly of GUI, while higher level is needed.

After HyperCard (and SuperCard, HyperStudio to some extent) I have not
seen anything near the quality and simplicity, unfortunately... Well,
probably Squeak (sp?) is near, but it is thing in itself.

Sy, Roman Suzi


--
_/ Russia _/ Karelia _/ Petrozavodsk _/ r...@onego.ru _/

_/ Monday, June 18, 2001 _/ Powered by Linux RedHat 6.2 _/
_/ "Nostalgia isn't what it used to be." _/


Cameron Laird

unread,
Jun 18, 2001, 11:15:29 AM6/18/01
to
In article <mailman.992871506...@python.org>,
Roman Suzi <r...@onego.ru> wrote:
.
.

.
>I still remember HyperCard with warm feelings. It had very comfortable
>look&feel both from developer's and user's perspective. Every object had
>it's own script, which contained event handlers. Events were forwarded
>automatically from contained objects to containers and if not handled,
>Hypercard was the last who intercepted them. (Much like exceptions).
>
>Very nice scheme, which allowed to concentrate on the GUI and application
>logic, and not on the message propagation details.
>
>What I wanted to say, is that GUI programming is really easy when tools
>are like HyperCard: conceptually simple and powerful. Because all that
>complication comes from not hiding unnecessary details. Tk is like
>Assembly of GUI, while higher level is needed.
>
>After HyperCard (and SuperCard, HyperStudio to some extent) I have not
>seen anything near the quality and simplicity, unfortunately... Well,
>probably Squeak (sp?) is near, but it is thing in itself.
.
.
.
Do you realize a modernized HyperCard is still commercially
supported <URL: http://www.metacard.com/ >?
--

Cameron Laird <cla...@NeoSoft.com>
Business: http://www.Phaseit.net
Personal: http://starbase.neosoft.com/~claird/home.html

Roman Suzi

unread,
Jun 18, 2001, 11:04:27 AM6/18/01
to Cameron Laird, pytho...@python.org

Oh, ye, I forgot to mention MetaCard.
But now my standard is Open Source ;-)

And I think Python could be nice to power such *Card program...

Sincerely yours, Roman A.Suzi
--
- Petrozavodsk - Karelia - Russia - mailto:r...@onego.ru -


Cameron Laird

unread,
Jun 18, 2001, 5:12:49 PM6/18/01
to
In article <170620012336202508%sb...@nospammac.com>,

The Mac-Python SIG gives false impressions. Here's
what Apple employee and recognized Tk expert Jim
Ingham just told me:
I am still working slowly on a Carbon
port of Tk. I should be able to have
something stable enough that others
can hack on it in a month or two.

Cameron Laird

unread,
Jun 18, 2001, 5:37:22 PM6/18/01
to
In article <AD6818160256CDB3.61604CB3...@lp.airnews.net>,
I emitted:
.
.

.
>The Mac-Python SIG gives false impressions. Here's
>what Apple employee and recognized Tk expert Jim
>Ingham just told me:
> I am still working slowly on a Carbon
> port of Tk. I should be able to have
> something stable enough that others
> can hack on it in a month or two.
.
.
.
*I* give false impressions. Jim's an employee of Apple.
He's working on a Carbon port. However, he is NOT work-
ing on the Carbon port *as* an Apple employee; it's
private work, on his own time.

I apologize for the confusion I've created.

Ron Stephens

unread,
Jun 18, 2001, 7:02:57 PM6/18/01
to
Is there an extensive tutorial or good documentation of wxPython on the web
that one can learn from? The wxPython tutorial on the wxPython web site is
quite short and is insufficient for a klutz like me. Unfortunately, the same
tutorial is duplicated word for word in the Programming Python book and no more
is offfered. The Tkinter chapters of various books (including Programming
Python, as mentioned by Dave, thanks Dave!) are really detailed and good. That
alone may help me make my decision between Tkinter and wxPython, although
wxPython does seem to be well liked by those who use it.

Ron Stephens

Ron Stephens

unread,
Jun 18, 2001, 7:06:57 PM6/18/01
to
Perhaps if someone could do a PythonCard for event driven gui programs, using
the Python syntax and the Hypercard container model, it would be a big hit
;-))))

I wish I had the ability do that kind of coding ....

Neil Hodgson

unread,
Jun 18, 2001, 7:56:21 PM6/18/01
to
Ron Stephens:

> Perhaps if someone could do a PythonCard for event driven gui programs,
> using the Python syntax and the Hypercard container model, it would be a
> big hit
> ;-))))

The feature I loved in HyperCard was that persistence was built-in.
Actually it was better than built-in - it permeated the whole paradigm. It
was a great environment for people who didn't see themselves as developers
as it could be used on several different levels with scripting not being
needed for many tasks. Many were able to build applications even though they
did not wish to spend a lot of effort on learning or developing.

However, the market, which was given several HyperCard like products to
choose from, has decided against this form of development environment.

Neil

Chris Barker

unread,
Jun 18, 2001, 8:01:33 PM6/18/01
to
Ron Stephens wrote:
>
> Is there an extensive tutorial or good documentation of wxPython on the web
> that one can learn from? The wxPython tutorial on the wxPython web site is
> quite short and is insufficient for a klutz like me.

This has been a common complaint, and I think the reason it hasn't been
better addressed is that once people get past the beginning of the
learning curve, they realise that they really don't need it. It doesn't
take too long to get rolling. I found that I really did need to "get" OO
programming in Python before I could do anything with wxPython.

There is a work in progress getting started guide here:

http://wxpython.org/cgi-bin/wiki/Getting_20Started

Also, be sure to take a good look at the demo, there is a lot of good
stuff in there, and a lot of us find we learn best by example anyway.

Good luck!

-Chris


--
Christopher Barker,
Ph.D.
ChrisH...@home.net --- --- ---
http://members.home.net/barkerlohmann ---@@ -----@@ -----@@
------@@@ ------@@@ ------@@@
Oil Spill Modeling ------ @ ------ @ ------ @
Water Resources Engineering ------- --------- --------
Coastal and Fluvial Hydrodynamics --------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ron Stephens

unread,
Jun 18, 2001, 9:50:16 PM6/18/01
to
Well, I really appreciate all of the good advice and comments. Considering
all of it, and that I am using Windows, I think I am going to decide to just
dig in and really study and learn either Tkinter *or* wxPython. I have a
whole week next week, my family will be gone and I am on vacation. I should
be able to do it.

I lean towards Tkinter, because I have "Programming Python" and "Python and
Tkinter" books. But I do look wistfully at wxPython, which seems pretty
straight forward OOP (as far as it looks to this newbie) and the
documentation in the wxPython package looks pretty good on all the widgets;
*and* the new tutorial recommended by Christopher Barker at
http://wxpython.org/cgi-bin/wiki/Getting_20Started looks fine. wxPython is
tempting.

My usual modus operandi when faced with such a dilemma would be to just dive
in and try to learn both, since I couldn't decide between them, thus
over-complicating the chore. ;-))

I really think I should decide this though. Tkinter, by a hair, unless I
change my mind by Friday, when I get home from the office ;-)))

Does anyone recall the 60's song "Have you ever had to make up your mind,
.......and leave the other behind" or some such lyrics...

Thanks for *all* the help. It was informative and appreciated. Still open to
last minute wxPython vs. Tkinter comments....


Ron Stephens

unread,
Jun 18, 2001, 9:54:55 PM6/18/01
to
Well, should you ever decide to try to do a relatively simple, experimental
beta design of a Python-based Hypercard-like gui-creator, say just for simple
user-data input and output (proof of concept, say); I will offer all the
coding back-up help these poor fingers can muster, in my limted time and with
my limited IQ.

I imagine I better work real hard to learn Tkinter or wxPython nex tweek,
first, though, or else I won't be of *any* help...

Ron Stephens

David Bolen

unread,
Jun 18, 2001, 10:49:11 PM6/18/01
to
Ron Stephens <rds...@earthlink.net> writes:

> Is there an extensive tutorial or good documentation of wxPython on the web
> that one can learn from? The wxPython tutorial on the wxPython web site is

> quite short and is insufficient for a klutz like me. (...)

Others have pointed to the new Wiki work, but I just wanted to also
highlight strongly the demo that comes with it. While it doesn't
necessarily give you a top level tutorial, it's terrific for just
interacting with the demo until you see an example of what you want
and then looking at the source of that demo to see how it was
accomplished. The demo also exercises a very large fraction of the
components of wxPython, so it's a good show-n-tell to see how things
might look.

--
-- David
--
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------\
\ David Bolen \ E-mail: db...@fitlinxx.com /
| FitLinxx, Inc. \ Phone: (203) 708-5192 |
/ 860 Canal Street, Stamford, CT 06902 \ Fax: (203) 316-5150 \
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------/

Roman Suzi

unread,
Jun 19, 2001, 1:14:43 AM6/19/01
to Neil Hodgson, pytho...@python.org
On Mon, 18 Jun 2001, Neil Hodgson wrote:

> Ron Stephens:
> > Perhaps if someone could do a PythonCard for event driven gui programs,
> > using the Python syntax and the Hypercard container model, it would be a
> > big hit
> > ;-))))
>
> The feature I loved in HyperCard was that persistence was built-in.

Probably PythonCard should be database-powered to provide fast
object retrieval and persistant storage.

> Actually it was better than built-in - it permeated the whole paradigm. It
> was a great environment for people who didn't see themselves as developers
> as it could be used on several different levels with scripting not being
> needed for many tasks. Many were able to build applications even though they
> did not wish to spend a lot of effort on learning or developing.
>
> However, the market, which was given several HyperCard like products to
> choose from, has decided against this form of development environment.

The market ways are unpredictable, because decisions are made not on the
basis of technical merits but with some strange reasoning behind.

For Freeware project it is not necessary to look at what market has or
does, because if somebody will ever implement PythonCard it will be made
with self-satisfaction in mind.

This is how emulator for old computers are made and maintained:
because people have nostalgic feelings about them.

> Neil

Bernhard Reiter

unread,
Jun 19, 2001, 3:51:46 AM6/19/01
to
In article <3B2D3975...@earthlink.net>,

Ron Stephens <rds...@earthlink.net> writes:
> Is there an extensive tutorial or good documentation of wxPython on the web
> that one can learn from?

I agree with my fellow posters David and Chris,
the demo code is most valuable.

Also not that there is a short tutorial coming with Boa (about its
usage of course) if you check the help options. I have missed the
first times I was checking out Boa. :)

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